Latest / Aired Out / Laurie Lawless - Heidi's Haven

Transcript

Laurie Lawless - Heidi's Haven · Aired Out

• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Then don't.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Do anything the.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: Man.
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: All right, good morning everybody, and welcome to a brand
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: new day. It is another hot one today, National Weather
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: Service saying partly to mostly sunny skies, a stray shower
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: or a thunderstorm. But yeah, ninety four degrees today for
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: the daytime high, which is, Hey, we got through yesterday, right,
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: so we should be able to survive today. Yeah. I
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: spent I spent a few hours at Boulder Beach yesterday
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: in grotten which was just spectacular. The water temperature was amazing.
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: Had a nice conversation with some friends, some family there,
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: and this is it. This is like the water temperature
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: at Boulder Beach is going to be warm for like
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: a week and then it's going to be cold again.
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: Right to say, be careful on the roadways this morning.
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: I know I kind of lead off with this almost
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: every morning, but there are work zones everywhere, and if
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: you're driving somewhere where there's not a work zone, that's
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: kind of rare. So just be careful. These people that
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: are out working in this heat, the flaggers, the construction
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: workers Lafayette out there putting guardrails everywhere, working on banking,
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: they're line painting, they're mowing brush cutting. It's everywhere. Please
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: be careful no matter where you are, whatever town you're in.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: Ninety four degrees today with a heat index that is
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: still just crazy, one hundred degrees. Cooling shelters, yeah, they're
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: all over the state. Posted that up this morning. Right
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: here in central Vermont. There are several, So just have
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: a look at the aired out page and we've got
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: it all there for you. Partly cloudy tonight, seventy one again,
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: it is going to be a beautiful night to just
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: sit outside and maybe look up at some stars. We
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: have so much to talk about this morning. It's nine
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: oh eight, by the way, and temperature wise right now,
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: we're what about what is this really true?
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: Is?
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: Come on? How could this be possible? Eighty degrees already
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: right now? Is my phone? Okay? Really? This morning? I
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: have a lady that's next to me who I have
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: never met before and just met her a few minutes ago,
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: Laurie Lawless. And Laurie, I have been I've been hearing
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: about you for a long time. You reached out to me.
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: I don't know how long ago it was, but it
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: was quite a while ago, and said, hey, man, are
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: you aware of what's going on in Williamstown with Heide's
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: Haven Rescue, at which point I think I replied to you,
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: I am I've been hearing about it. I note that
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: there's a lot and there has been a lot of
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: chatter on social media over the years about this particular organization.
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: Let's start out this morning by saying maybe that this
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: is a really long story that has a lot of
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: different tentacles and can be very complicated. Would I be
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: accurate in saying that you would be.
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: Very accurate in saying that very many layers of onions
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: peel yes.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: I also want to say that I have seen your
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: Facebook page, which is called shut Down. I want to
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: say that I've had a good look at it, and
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: I've seen some of the videos. I've seen the posts
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: on this. My impression of you is that you are
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: not someone It seems like you're not someone who is
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: waking up every day beginning their day saying I want
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: to be a troublemaker, I want to stir the pot
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: and uh create trauma for lack of a better term.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: You seem like a very genuine person with a good heart,
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: who has a real legitimate concern for the welfare of
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: animals everywhere, not just just just you're an animal person.
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: I'm an animal person.
• 7:26
  Speaker 6: Yes, that's definitely correct.
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, you might even say that with everything that
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: you have going on in your life, you don't have
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: the time to just sit and stir a pot like
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: so many people do. You You've invested so much time
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: and energy into ah airing out, if you will, what's
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: going on over in Williamstown, but you're not just trying
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: to be a nuisance to what's going on over there.
• 8:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's correct.
• 8:08
  Speaker 5: It kind of has at some times felt like a
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: part time job, and it's I don't know it because
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: of the layers and the complications, and I felt like
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: there was so much going on underneath. I felt like
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: it needed to be out there in public record because
• 8:28
  Speaker 5: there is so much public record about this going on
• 8:32
  Speaker 5: since I'm sure before twenty eighteen, but really, if you
• 8:36
  Speaker 5: look at public record documents, documents in Vermont, that's about
• 8:40
  Speaker 5: when it started really getting recorded, all right.
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: So for people that are just tuning in this morning,
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: what is going on? What's what's the story here?
• 8:55
  Speaker 6: I think the there's two stories. One I would say is.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: This is not.
• 9:04
  Speaker 5: Something that is uncommon in animal welfare if you've been
• 9:06
  Speaker 5: in animal welfare for a long time, where people with
• 9:08
  Speaker 5: a good heart and great intentions take a lot on
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: themselves and become overburdened and are unable to accept help
• 9:19
  Speaker 5: or admit that they might be or might have taken
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: on too much. And it's something I have seen in
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: my career. So that's one story. And the second story
• 9:29
  Speaker 5: is the state of Vermont's lack of rules and regulations
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: around shelters and rescue and one of really two states
• 9:37
  Speaker 5: in the United States that really we don't even have
• 9:40
  Speaker 5: an overseeing currently don't have an overseeing agency that regulates
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: animal shelters, dog daycares, boarding facilities, rescue organizations, transporting dogs
• 9:52
  Speaker 5: from out of state.
• 9:54
  Speaker 6: You know, every other.
• 9:57
  Speaker 5: State in New England has put some regulation around transporting
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: doctor out of the state, and you know, Vermont really
• 10:03
  Speaker 5: just doesn't have any oversight and that allows for a
• 10:05
  Speaker 5: lot of loopholes and leeways and the law that makes
• 10:09
  Speaker 5: it really challenging for law enforcement to actually enforce any
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: type of neglect or cruelty cases because it's just there's
• 10:20
  Speaker 5: a lot.
• 10:20
  Speaker 6: Of loopholes there.
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: Lack of regulation, total.
• 10:23
  Speaker 6: Lack of regulations yep.
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: So you aren't to some here, You're not walking around
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: beating the drum of our police aren't doing their job.
• 10:37
  Speaker 6: That's correct, you know.
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: I think there's circumstances where there have been mistakes made.
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: But I also feel as though, because of our lack
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: of rules and regulations, are law enforcement agencies, because there's
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: been multiple involved in this case, don't necessarily have the
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: proper training or ability to collect evidence in the way
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: other states might be able to due to our lack.
• 11:02
  Speaker 6: Of having those regulations and rules.
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: So I think there's been a lot of really good
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: efforts made by multiple law enforcement agents. I can see
• 11:11
  Speaker 5: that in a lot of the paperwork that I've been
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: able to get through the foyer requests. However, there's been
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: roadblocks in every direction because steps were missed. That I
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: think is due to, like I said, like a lack
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: of overall how do we address these large scale cases.
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: It's very easy if you see somebody kick a dog
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: and say, hey, that's abuse. But when you have someone
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: who has more than fifty animals on their property and
• 11:36
  Speaker 5: doesn't want to let folks onto the property, and we
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: don't have the adequate training on what standards of care
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: should look like and how to prove that animals are
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: being neglected. That's a lot more difficult for our law enforcement.
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: And I think that's where a lot of the challenges
• 11:52
  Speaker 5: with this particular case have come up, because there has
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: been a lot of effort but not a lot of
• 11:58
  Speaker 5: change movement over the years.
• 12:01
  Speaker 6: Complicated, I know, I'm.
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: Sorry, it is it is so, it is very complicated,
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: and I wonder how And I'll admit this just very
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: openly that I am super ignorant of how Vermont compares
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: to other states, our surrounding states, even here in New England,
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: with regard to regulation like this. Are you do you
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: know anything about this?
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah?
• 12:28
  Speaker 5: I mean so, for example, Massachusetts has a lot of
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: regulation around transporting dogs from out of state from the South.
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: In Massachusetts, dogs are required to be in quarantine for
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: forty eight hours in a quarantined area. They have inspections.
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: I was gonna ask about it, actually, you.
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: Know, surprise inspections. I know Connecticut does surprise inspections. They
• 12:51
  Speaker 5: have twice yearly surprise inspections. New York State actually I
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: know they're not New England, but New York State. Actually,
• 12:58
  Speaker 5: as of December fifteenth of this upcoming year just put
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: in a whole bunch of regulation around what type of
• 13:04
  Speaker 5: medical care is required, what housing enclosures should look like
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: for animals, how much daylight animals are required to get
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: every day exercise out of kennel time, and up to
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: and including behavior evaluations and documentation regarding all of those things. So,
• 13:21
  Speaker 5: you know, there's a lot of states around us that
• 13:23
  Speaker 5: are doing quite a bit to regulate. New New Hampshire
• 13:26
  Speaker 5: actually has some of the strictest rules I've seen, which
• 13:28
  Speaker 5: surprise me. For the livery or Die state. You know,
• 13:32
  Speaker 5: they have a very strong list of things folks need
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: to abide by, what type of materials you're allowed to
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: use to build kennels. You know, in Vermont, like I've
• 13:42
  Speaker 5: been to, for example, most animals, because of transmissible diseases,
• 13:48
  Speaker 5: you should be able to fully clean an enclosure, so
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: that means you can disinfect it, which means all of
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: the services need to be non porous. I have gone
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: to like holding facilities for towns for animal control here
• 14:01
  Speaker 5: in Vermont, and they are housed in like a barn
• 14:05
  Speaker 5: with wooden enclosures and chicken wire, and that's what the
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: town is paying to use for holding animals for stray holds, right,
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: and so every animal that goes through there, if they
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: urinate on anything, it's just soaking into the wood, and
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: any theeces that are dropped, if it's if they're living
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: on dirt, you know, if they have hookworm or some
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: other contagious parasite or disease, all of that just lives
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: in the soil.
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: Right, it's a sponge.
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: Yes, so Vermont does not have anything that regulates anything.
• 14:33
  Speaker 5: So in addition to the welfare behaviorally of the animals,
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: which I'm always very you know, we talk about using
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: the Five Domains in animal welfare, we're not even really
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: meeting the health standards that most states would have for
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: domestic pets in this state.
• 14:50
  Speaker 6: So that's you.
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: You don't have to look very far on anywhere on
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: the internet. Just go Goo go Heidie's Haven Rescue, Williamstown, Vermont,
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: and it's everywhere. Forget about Facebook, I mean just anywhere
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: on Facebook. I see so many comments, one from a
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: lady named Emily. We need to keep making noise on
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: behalf of the voice the voiceless victims of Heidie's Haven
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: in other places like it, they're suffering every moment, every day,
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: while our local justice system fails them. I can guarantee
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: that the animals in this property have numerous health concerns,
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: including malnutrition. As noted by the vet who evaluated the
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: dog who escaped last week. These dogs are not being
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: conditioned for agility or other dog sports. They're being starved.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: Have you ever had a chance to chat with Sheila McGregor.
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: I once Facebook messaged her in twenty eighteen when she
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: was having challenges at her Ferrisburg location and there was
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: a rat infestation, And I could tell from some of
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: the photos. When you see a home that has too
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: many animals and not enough caretakers to just keep up
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: sanitary conditions, you can kind of see in the back
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: some of the telltale signs or maybe like spider ReBs
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: in the corners, you see dirt and matter usually in
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: door frame areas, on the molding around window sills, and
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: so some of the pictures she was posting I saw that. Plus,
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: in addition to the news was discussing the town was
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: discussing the rat infestation that was going on around her location,
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: and I had I had reached out to her and said,
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: you know, I'm I think that you have too many animals.
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: You probably have good intentions, but there's better ways to
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: do this, you know. I was pretty blunt. I probably
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: wasn't the kindest when I sent that message, you know,
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: because obviously I see suffering and that was hard.
• 17:01
  Speaker 6: And she replied to me briefly with some articles.
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: About how cats are really good rodent control and that
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: it's normal because she lived across from a cornfield for
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: rats to be in the area, and just was unwilling
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: to kind of acknowledge that there was really a larger
• 17:19
  Speaker 5: issue at play. And it was at that time I
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: kind of realized what the reality was in front was
• 17:26
  Speaker 5: not the reality of what was going on, and you know,
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: I think she discontinued. We discontinued talking at that point.
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: And from my life experience, I've learned that sometimes you
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: can talk to people and rationalize with them, and some
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: people just don't want to hear it. And so that
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: was back in twenty eighteen, and I've kept it on
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: my radar ever since. I have a colleague that lives
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: in Addison County and we are dog trainers, and so,
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: you know, it was just something that stayed on the radar,
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: and it was it was not something that, you know,
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: I felt like I could do much about at the time,
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: so I didn't really pursue it, but I've always kind
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: of kept it as I can't believe this is happening
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: so close to home, as in Vermont, like you know.
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: So the bottom line here is is what.
• 18:18
  Speaker 7: Is it?
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: Animal abuse? Is it malnutrition? Is it sanitary conditions? Is
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: it too many animals? Is it other animals other than
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: just dogs? I mean you referred to this as peeling
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: back the onion here, I mean, what is is it
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: those things and more?
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so, you know, I don't think abuse.
• 18:40
  Speaker 5: It may not legally reach the lines of abuse, because
• 18:43
  Speaker 5: that is in our laws means you know, like intentional
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: and it is something more like kicking a dog or
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: hitting a dog. But when we're looking at neglect, which
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: is a lot harder to define when you don't have regulation,
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: is yes, so there were two pigs on the property,
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: which is we can get into talking about the two pigs.
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: There were approximately sixty five to seventy five dogs most recently,
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: and at one point there was around twenty something cats,
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: but according to records currently we're down to eight cats potentially.
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: But she did just license forty four dogs because we
• 19:29
  Speaker 5: you know, I don't know the intentions there, but I'm
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: assuming that now that there's an actual court case on
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: the docket for the pigs, that there might be an
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: attempt to change, you know, the legal status of the
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: animals to avoid them from being taken or maybe avoid
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: from further charges. I'm not really sure the intention of that.
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: But there are still more than forty four dogs on
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: the property. Those are just the ones that she's registered
• 19:52
  Speaker 5: currently as her dogs.
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: Wow. Yeah, that's a lot, and it's Sheila, And I mean,
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: how many staff members are managing all of these dogs.
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: There's no staff members there, this one person.
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: Yes, that's a ratio, that's a little. Yes, I couldn't
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: handle forty four dogs.
• 20:14
  Speaker 6: No, it's a lot.
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: Some of them, you know, are they are put up
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: in crates and then let out as groups, so that
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: in general makes exercise I guess lately easier. But they're
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: being let out into the same dirt yards every day.
• 20:28
  Speaker 5: So when you look at like a welfare perspective, and
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: there are certain dogs that they will go hiking with,
• 20:35
  Speaker 5: and she'll post on Facebook regularly about that, but I
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: just want to be really clear that there's if she's
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: out with a five to fifteen dogs that can socialize
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: with other dogs and can be trusted off leash. Those
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: are the only dogs getting that type of enrichment or exercise.
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: There are dogs on the property who are aggressive or
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: dangerous and cannot be afforded those luxuries.
• 20:56
  Speaker 6: Wow.
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we're getting a phone call. Good morning, good morning, Yes, Hi,
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: Hi JD. This is Melody Hid Melody.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: Hi.
• 21:08
  Speaker 8: First and foremost, I wanted to just say thank you
• 21:10
  Speaker 8: to Laurie.
• 21:14
  Speaker 7: I had no idea of the totality of this when
• 21:18
  Speaker 7: I first got into this about seventy seventy five days ago.
• 21:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a lot.
• 21:27
  Speaker 8: I JD, like you had mentioned before, are one of
• 21:32
  Speaker 8: those people that.
• 21:35
  Speaker 7: Does have the time to get on Facebook every day,
• 21:39
  Speaker 7: every day, relentlessly and post something about Heidi san And
• 21:46
  Speaker 7: I learned about this when the news article came out,
• 21:50
  Speaker 7: the news media came out about the pigs. I had
• 21:54
  Speaker 7: no idea just the severity of this. All I know
• 22:00
  Speaker 7: was I saw the video and the news and was
• 22:06
  Speaker 7: absolutely enraged. And I decided the next day that I
• 22:12
  Speaker 7: was going to go There wasn't much I could do,
• 22:14
  Speaker 7: but I was going to go on Facebook, and I
• 22:16
  Speaker 7: was going to protest every day.
• 22:19
  Speaker 8: Every day.
• 22:19
  Speaker 7: I was going to put a bleeb up about this
• 22:21
  Speaker 7: woman and her haven. And then I did the research
• 22:28
  Speaker 7: and I heard that Laurie existed, and I got out
• 22:35
  Speaker 7: there and started digging and couldn't believe the stuff I found.
• 22:39
  Speaker 8: I just couldn't believe it.
• 22:42
  Speaker 6: I would like to say to Melodie, It's not just me.
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: There's a lot of people who have been fighting and
• 22:50
  Speaker 5: working on this for a very very long time, and
• 22:53
  Speaker 5: I feel like everybody was so deep in it, and
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: I was kind of sitting on the outside with the
• 23:00
  Speaker 5: expertise that I have just from my career and knowing
• 23:04
  Speaker 5: that people felt really stuck and that this was really layered,
• 23:08
  Speaker 5: and I felt so I went to school for journalism
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: originally way back in the day, and I know how
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: to gather information that's public, that is can put together
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: a timeline, we can see where things went right or
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: where things went wrong. And so there are a lot
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: of people who care deeply about this, and I like,
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: I think, like j D said, I am not normally
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: somebody who like certainly be the face of these things
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: and cause of rucous and but I just felt this
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: suffering was so close to home for me, and I've
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: rescued dogs from similar situations and understanding the trauma of
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: the rehabilitation process of these dogs that live in overcrowded situations.
• 23:51
  Speaker 5: And I just felt like, if I don't do it,
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: who I mean, not that somebody wouldn't otherwise do it,
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: but I just felt it was the right time for
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: me to be able to say, all right, well, i'll
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: what does it take.
• 24:05
  Speaker 6: One for the team?
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: Kind of like everybody's gonna hate me, I guess, and
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: that's fine, and law enforcement might not like it.
• 24:13
  Speaker 6: The town of Williamstown might not like it, you.
• 24:17
  Speaker 7: Know, Williamstown. Well, one gentleman specifically came right at me
• 24:22
  Speaker 7: and and I was.
• 24:22
  Speaker 8: A little shocked.
• 24:23
  Speaker 7: I mean, I just you know, I started putting some
• 24:27
  Speaker 7: stuff out and uh and uh he lamb basted me.
• 24:32
  Speaker 7: He called me all kinds of names, and uh just
• 24:35
  Speaker 7: wasn't a pleasant person. And I actually blocked him. I
• 24:39
  Speaker 7: just said, you know, I I'm doing this for my
• 24:44
  Speaker 7: personal reasons and uh uh and he just was unpleasant.
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: Yes, and that was a represent representation of the town,
• 24:55
  Speaker 5: or that was somebody with within a town office or.
• 24:58
  Speaker 8: Well someone within the town office.
• 25:01
  Speaker 7: And and you know, I've left messages, people aren't don't
• 25:05
  Speaker 7: return their phone calls. I've I've I've tried to have
• 25:10
  Speaker 7: donations dropped off and then you know it was a
• 25:14
  Speaker 7: matter of you know, you spoke bad about her on
• 25:17
  Speaker 7: Facebook or mentioned her on Facebook and she will not
• 25:20
  Speaker 7: accept food from you. Well, I had donors here in
• 25:25
  Speaker 7: the Northeast Kingdom where I live in Danville that you know,
• 25:29
  Speaker 7: we're willing to purchase food and and stuff for her
• 25:34
  Speaker 7: and anonymously, and once she heard that I was on Facebook, Nope,
• 25:39
  Speaker 7: she refused everything, nothing from me, and.
• 25:44
  Speaker 8: Just craziness.
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: So yeah, one of the things to acknowledge is she
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: does get she does have someone who does distribute food
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: to hersh there are some resources that that she does have,
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: and this has kind of been a pattern of behavior.
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: So oftentimes what I've gotten pushed back is is how
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: come we don't advocate for more volunteers or how come
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: we don't help her? And the thing is is people
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: have been trying multiple people for years and years and years,
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: and it sometimes gets to a point where you're enabling,
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: enabling the suffering of the animals. It's kind of I
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: relate it to people who might go to a We
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: don't have pet stores really in Vermont, but somebody who
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: would go to a pet store and think they're saving
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: a puppy from a pet store situation, and it's like,
• 26:37
  Speaker 5: but the money that was gained goes right back to
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: the puppy mill, right, So it's at some point, yes,
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: I think the first intervention method should always be yes,
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: we should help. Sometimes people are overwhelmed. Overwhelmed caregivers oftentimes
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: reach a point where they acknowledge they need help and
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: accept it. But in this case it has to always
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: be on very specific terms. And then I don't know,
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: I don't know her bookkeeping. All I've been able to
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: do is find IRS records of the you know, the
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: what is it, the nine ninety, but as far as
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: you know, she's not registered as a business in Vermont,
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: so there's not even her. She technically runs a boarding
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: business out of the house too, that's also not registered
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: in Vermont.
• 27:19
  Speaker 6: So really, yeah, so I don't know.
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: You know, that's something I've thought about diving down that
• 27:23
  Speaker 5: rabbit hole, but honestly, it's just been already just so
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: much to take on tracking you know, what's going on
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: on the legal side, So it's really hard for me
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: to say. You know, normally nonprofits will put out a
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: list of their expenses and income streams and fundraising and
• 27:40
  Speaker 5: how much money was spent on food and all of
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: those things. And I can't find that documentation anywhere. So
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: it's really hard to say even where those resources that
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: are donated go. And that's where we run into a problem,
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: where it's you know, the accountability of what's actually going
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: on there, and and that's that's where my journalism side
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: comes in and goes, wait a second, like this, there's
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: a problem here. So yeah, and I will say too
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: that with Williamstown, just to backtrack to that a little bit,
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: you know, there was a place in time, especially earlier
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: on which we haven't even talked about the transition from
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: Ferrisburg to Williamstown, but early on in her residency in Williamstown,
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: she did have a lot of friends who were on
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: the select board. Williamstown in general doesn't have any zoning regulations,
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: so they don't even have any real local ordinances that
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: allows them to do anything. And it was kind of like, well,
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: that's her property, we don't have any jurisdiction. There's not
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: much we can do. And so that that became very
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: challenging because there were you know, an animal control officers,
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: there were certain select board members, there's a health officer
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: who really tried, and it's like everybody who's really tried
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: to do something just hit a wall, got frustrated and
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: had to walk away. And that's something I'm trying not
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: to do because I am myself very frustrated because this
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: is just ongoing and ongoing and ongoing, and it's like,
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: you know, I just don't want to stop. I'm not
• 29:06
  Speaker 5: a quitter, and that's my biggest problem in life. I
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: think sometimes for better or worse, is I told myself
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: I was going to take this on and bring it
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: to the forefront until something positive happens. And unfortunately a
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: lot of really bad things have happened since I started
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: this to two and a half years ago of really
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: like doing this. You know, we know animals have have
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: left us.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: We do know that.
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: Dogs have been gotten loose off of property, were found skinny.
• 29:35
  Speaker 5: We know that you know, fleas were an issue. We
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: know that there's upper respiratory infections. We know that there's
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: parasites and hookworms, lime disease, because that's all documented in
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: vet records. So you know, and then obviously, uh, you know,
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: there have been some dogs and animals who have passed away.
• 29:52
  Speaker 6: Some of them we know about.
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: Some of them, we don't know where they went. They're
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: just not no longer there. So yeah, it's complicated and
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: it's very sad. But Williamstown now you know, and I
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: do want to make it clear that when what happened
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: with the pigs is that they actually got themselves out
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: of their pen and were wandering around the road, which
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: is why animal control was called. And the pigs were
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: in such dire condition that the town gave the okay
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: for the animal officer to impound them due to their
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: condition and file for civil forfeiture.
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: This was all within the last what couple of weeks.
• 30:30
  Speaker 5: No, so they were I think this is very early March, yeah,
• 30:36
  Speaker 5: March April, yeah, yes, and.
• 30:39
  Speaker 6: So neighbors had been coming.
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: So the pigs are very It's a very interesting thing
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: because you could go back in the records when the
• 30:46
  Speaker 5: pigs were first starting to be really neigh because the
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: pigs you could see from the road and their pen,
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: neighbors have been calling and saying they're getting skinnier. There
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: was one neighbor who was basically, you know, feeding them irregularly,
• 30:57
  Speaker 5: but would bring scraps. And she said, even with me
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: feeding them, they've really lost a lot of weight, and
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: so neighbors were continuing calling them. So in twenty twenty three,
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: so the game wardens did have a representative from the
• 31:12
  Speaker 5: Department of Agriculture come out and that you know, and
• 31:15
  Speaker 5: this is where I say like it hits walls in Vermont.
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: The representative who is the livestock specialist, came out and said, well,
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: those pigs are body score conditioned. So pigs goes to
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: zero to five are a two and a half. But
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: you know, they're pet pigs. They're not meat pigs. And
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: so if you're and there's this whole theory from Heidi
• 31:37
  Speaker 5: Saven's owner that if you keep the animal skinny, they
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: live longer because you're not putting extra weight onto their
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: bone structure.
• 31:46
  Speaker 6: It's like a whole thing.
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: And so you know, they were like, well, since you're
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: not using them as meat pigs, I guess it's okay
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: for them to be a two point five, which to
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: me is kind of crazy, but I'm not a pig specialist.
• 32:00
  Speaker 6: So one was a two and one was a two
• 32:02
  Speaker 6: point five.
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: So she was told to get the other one to
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: a two point five, especially for over the winter, because
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: I think this was November ish of twenty twenty three,
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: and so that happened, and they did one gained weight
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: for like six months, but it's like as soon as the.
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: Authority is kind of not as a.
• 32:19
  Speaker 5: Parent anymore and somebody's not enforcing it, it's like, all
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: of a sudden, you see the pigs start losing weight again.
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: And so the neighbors were repeatedly calling the game wardens.
• 32:27
  Speaker 5: And there's even a note in one of the one
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: of the files that says, the pigs have looked the
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: same since I saw them in twenty twenty three, but
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: that's not the case. They were drastically losing weight. And
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: then I think it was in around January the neighbor
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: realized she's just enabling these pigs or enabling this because
• 32:47
  Speaker 5: she's feeding them and basically maintaining their entire weight and
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: help just on her scraps alone, and she would bring
• 32:53
  Speaker 5: them straw and hay because they also weren't being provided
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: anything for them to lay on. So they were just
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: like in the winter time, they were just like on
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: hard rock dirt basically, so, yeah, so I was. I
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: don't know why that wasn't also something that was discussed
• 33:09
  Speaker 5: with the agriculture person while they were there, But basically
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: it just got to a point where they were supposed
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: to have a vet come out because the game Morton
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: agreed to find a vet, and you know, you can
• 33:20
  Speaker 5: find this in some of the records, but they got
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: themselves out of their enclosure wandering around the road and
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: that was when the town decided to actually take action
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: because I think at this point they felt like they
• 33:30
  Speaker 5: needed to do something to intervene and this was, you know,
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: obviously a way for them to do that, and they
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: had a vet come assess on the next day. It
• 33:39
  Speaker 5: was actually the same vet that was supposed to come
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: out to the property anyway, And I think they were
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: the bs the BCS scores, which is a body condition score.
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: I think she initially rate it at like a one
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: and a one point five maybe, but that's basically starving.
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: Town of Williamstown has posted up basically say and I've
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: copied it pasted it here. Please direct any questions and
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: concerns complaints regarding Heidi's Haven to the State game Warden. Yes,
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: John truy and all, you know, his email address and
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: everything is right there.
• 34:16
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:17
  Speaker 7: And the whole other concern too is that you know,
• 34:22
  Speaker 7: she has other animals. God only knows what else is
• 34:25
  Speaker 7: in there. And as a cat rescuer, me and my
• 34:28
  Speaker 7: husband up in Danville had you know, a colony of
• 34:31
  Speaker 7: cats moved in on us from the barn next door,
• 34:34
  Speaker 7: and we were dealing with you know, thirty cats at
• 34:37
  Speaker 7: one time, getting them all neutered and and taken in babies,
• 34:42
  Speaker 7: and so I can't even imagine, you know, she's probably
• 34:46
  Speaker 7: got cats and.
• 34:49
  Speaker 8: And all kinds of things going on there.
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: And one of the sorry, one of the saddest things
• 34:55
  Speaker 5: to me too, regarding the cats is there's a building
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: on the front of the property that how this is
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: probably ten to fifteen dogs. I'm not really sure. I've
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: never been i haven't been in there, but the cats
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: are actually there's like a sheet rock wall, so you know,
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: not noise yet, not a noise proof wall, and the
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: cats are just on the other side of that.
• 35:19
  Speaker 6: So the cats every day, all day that are.
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: In this one room are just exposed to dogs barking
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: all the time, which if you look at the guidelines
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: for animal care. For animal shelters, that is a big
• 35:32
  Speaker 5: no no because cats are very sensitive to noise. They
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: are prey species, so if they feel threatened, it really
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: compromises their immune systems in addition to their behavioral welfare,
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: and so it causes cats to get sicker faster. In shelters,
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: one of the biggest things in sheltering is really making
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: sure that you know, we're putting different species in different
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: areas that don't have access to each other due to
• 35:56
  Speaker 5: the stress that can cause, and then the health reasons
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: that that can cause, so those cats have to live
• 36:02
  Speaker 5: with that all the time. Another important thing to note
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: too is, you know, oftentimes we're seeing posts about how
• 36:10
  Speaker 5: the cats, all cats should be indoor cats and blah
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: blah blah. But if you go buy the property, there's
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: cats or there's cats wandering outside. I've seen at least
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: five just from you know, driving down there and driving past,
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: you know, over the last couple of years, and it's like,
• 36:26
  Speaker 5: you know, you gotta it's the facade online is not
• 36:30
  Speaker 5: the same as the reality of what's happening, and that's
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: that's also really challenging because there are many people that
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: read the things that are posted online and take those
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: as strong facts, and that's not always.
• 36:41
  Speaker 6: The case with this situation.
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: So yeah, so it's a layering and complicated but I
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: will say Williams Sound has really started to step up.
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: I can't speak to everybody and involved in the town there,
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: but there was a time where I think they weren't
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: doing much and I think they're actively trying to assist
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: in the best any way they can.
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: But yeah, we just showed here and turned into the
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: state for some help.
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: Because they're the only ones that can really do anything.
• 37:05
  Speaker 5: The town has very limited ability to to They can't
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: enforce uh legal things to civil matters, so they can
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: they can find her for a loose dog getting off
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: the property.
• 37:17
  Speaker 6: Just took a few weeks.
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: Ago, a dog got off their property and killed the neighbors.
• 37:22
  Speaker 6: A couple of their birds.
• 37:24
  Speaker 7: Having more dogs, she can't have any more animals, this
• 37:27
  Speaker 7: is what I was told, and that they're supposedly they're monitoring.
• 37:31
  Speaker 7: That is court ordered that she cannot have anymore. But again,
• 37:38
  Speaker 7: you know, if they're they're not watching or they're not looking.
• 37:42
  Speaker 8: Who's to say?
• 37:43
  Speaker 7: Yeah and uh and uh, I guess the real question
• 37:48
  Speaker 7: here for me is where to go? From this because
• 37:53
  Speaker 7: I cannot continue the barrage of you know, uh uh
• 38:00
  Speaker 7: please on Facebook every day. There's got to be a
• 38:03
  Speaker 7: means to the ends for me. Yeah, and you know,
• 38:06
  Speaker 7: I will not stop until I get to the top
• 38:09
  Speaker 7: if I have to walk from my office across the
• 38:11
  Speaker 7: street to the state House.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 38:13
  Speaker 6: So so yeah, I think that's a great question.
• 38:17
  Speaker 5: I'm really happy you brought it up because we can
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: talk about doom and gloom all day. But I'm a
• 38:20
  Speaker 5: solutions oriented person. I always have been, and awareness was
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: number one. Continuing awareness is number two. We have a
• 38:29
  Speaker 5: couple things that need to happen. One is I really
• 38:33
  Speaker 5: feel because this has been going on for so long
• 38:35
  Speaker 5: and it is so layered and complicated, that law enforcement
• 38:38
  Speaker 5: can't necessarily use things that happen ten years ago. You know,
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: they need current and up to date statements from people
• 38:46
  Speaker 5: who have had first hand experiences since probably I don't
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: know what the timeline would be if there's like a
• 38:53
  Speaker 5: statute of limitations, but I think that they if anybody
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: out there has direct firsthand experience that they can that
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: they are willing to make a statement about and go
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: on record with it, that is something that will help
• 39:06
  Speaker 5: move this case. I do think that the other thing
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: that we do have going for us is Vermont just
• 39:14
  Speaker 5: hired a state Director of Animal Welfare. Now that is
• 39:18
  Speaker 5: a brand new position, I believe she just started at
• 39:21
  Speaker 5: the beginning of May and the only and it's under
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: the Department of Public Safety, so it will be a
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: law enforcement division. But right now her job is researching
• 39:33
  Speaker 5: and understanding what is going on in Vermont with this
• 39:36
  Speaker 5: so and that is yeah, and that is a direct
• 39:39
  Speaker 5: result of probably a decade of the there's a there's
• 39:43
  Speaker 5: a committee I'm forgetting the name of it right now,
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: but they have been working on this for about ten
• 39:48
  Speaker 5: years to propose and they proposed about sixty six pages
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: of recommended legislation for this, and what got passed through
• 39:57
  Speaker 5: the state was like a three page document based saying
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: we're going to hire this one person and then they're
• 40:02
  Speaker 5: going to figure out how to help us fund.
• 40:04
  Speaker 6: This new program.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: One person.
• 40:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and that's all they would budget for, right so,
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: you know, you go from sixty six pages of a
• 40:12
  Speaker 5: decade's worth of work of experts in Vermont animal welfare
• 40:16
  Speaker 5: whittled down to about three pages once it passed through,
• 40:18
  Speaker 5: and the hiring of this one person, so there's a
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: lot weighing on her, but supporting her and that initiative
• 40:24
  Speaker 5: and contacting legislators and representatives to really support what this
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: new director of andomal Welfare is going to be doing
• 40:31
  Speaker 5: in the state of Vermont is like the longer term solution.
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: But right now, I do think locals know about this.
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: People who live in the town know about this. It's
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: becoming bigger and bigger information and people just need to
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: really contact their representatives and say, hey, like, I know
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: this might not be directing my community specifically, but the
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: impacts of this are are so big and that you know,
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: animals are suffering and and like it's not okay, and
• 41:01
  Speaker 5: I know like that animals are dying because the I
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: think it was like two or three days after the
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: pigs were impounded, a deceased dog was brought for cremation
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: to a veterinary office, so which broke my heart because
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: it was actually a dog that the folks had been
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: trying to get back for a long time and we're
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: not allowed to have the dog back. So that was
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: really devastating to me because she was actually one of
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: the dogs that really their story of sending this dog
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: up here to Vermont where they picture green fields and
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: you know, cows and like this really awesome sanctuary experience
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: and then being being left in a dirt yard and
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: then dying for reasons we don't know, you know, is
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: really sad.
• 41:52
  Speaker 8: I only imagine.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 41:54
  Speaker 7: It's just I can't even the heat today, and yesterday
• 41:57
  Speaker 7: I was losing my mind at home. I was just like,
• 42:00
  Speaker 7: what are these animals going through at her house? You know,
• 42:03
  Speaker 7: And I'm trying to be a law abiding citizen. I
• 42:06
  Speaker 7: don't want to go down there and jump her fence
• 42:08
  Speaker 7: and you can't start loading cats and freeing everybody. And well,
• 42:13
  Speaker 7: there was a day and a time that I would
• 42:15
  Speaker 7: have Laurie, but you know, I can't now. But it's
• 42:19
  Speaker 7: just it's horrifying. I mean, something needs to be done.
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And I will say, you know, last summer there
• 42:26
  Speaker 5: was a heat wave where I had driven by to
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: visit a friend that lives on the road, and she
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: herself had seen like, I don't think there's a I
• 42:35
  Speaker 5: couldn't hear a fan running in the front building from
• 42:38
  Speaker 5: the road, and so you know, we did complain and
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: then the animal, the animal warden, the game warden went
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: out and did check and make sure that she had
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: an appropriate exhaust fan, which I don't.
• 42:52
  Speaker 6: I don't.
• 42:52
  Speaker 5: She I think ended up buying a new one, and
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: this winter when things dropped down really cold, you know,
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: sent back out to check him because there's a bunk
• 42:59
  Speaker 5: house all the way in the back that has a
• 43:02
  Speaker 5: giant mastiff and a couple other dogs, and just wanted
• 43:04
  Speaker 5: to make sure it had heat, you know, because we
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: don't know. And the pigs for the longest time to
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: weren't even being provided hay and straw throughout the winter,
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: so they really in addition to not having the nutrition
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: to keep themselves warm the body fat, they also weren't
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: being provided bedding. So there's real concern there, and that's
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: we're not sure how the one dog passed away, but
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: it was after a really bad cold snap, so you know,
• 43:28
  Speaker 5: it's it's definitely something people can if they have direct concerns,
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: they can certainly call contact the A Mortons, but it
• 43:37
  Speaker 5: doesn't help law enforcement to call if there isn't a
• 43:41
  Speaker 5: direct complaint. So sometimes what I will say to people
• 43:44
  Speaker 5: is if you have a if you see a post
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: on Facebook about a very specific animal, like it looks
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: really skinny, or its hips are showing, or maybe it's limping.
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: Contact me. I can help find the name of the animal.
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: We basically have our own little roster we've been able
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: to put together. I'll give you the name of the
• 44:02
  Speaker 5: animal when you contact like the law enforcement, say I
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: have a concern about Bob the dog because his hips
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: look to be protruding. Can you go check on that
• 44:13
  Speaker 5: specific dog? And that gives them the ability to to
• 44:16
  Speaker 5: really go with a true complaint versus like just animals
• 44:21
  Speaker 5: are being neglected. You know, it's you like, when it's
• 44:24
  Speaker 5: at this point, and yes, everybody would want to hop
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: fences into do all that stuff. And you know, I've
• 44:30
  Speaker 5: had people contact me with like these plans of like
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: well what if we go in and we send somebody
• 44:35
  Speaker 5: in and adopt an animal and then take it to
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: the and it's you know, once you kind of get
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: into moving in this really weird gray area, like none
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: of that will end up holding up in court and
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: then we lose the long term, Yeah, we lose the
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: ability to uh to have evidence, I guess you could say,
• 44:54
  Speaker 5: because that will get thrown out in court definitely.
• 44:56
  Speaker 6: So anyway, I can't you know, it's it's just hard.
• 44:59
  Speaker 5: It's very complicated, and from having been involved in cases
• 45:02
  Speaker 5: like this before just through other things I've done with
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: my career, these animal household animal rescues are some of
• 45:09
  Speaker 5: the most difficult ones to go after in any state.
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: So it's definitely layered, and here it's worse just because
• 45:16
  Speaker 5: of our lack of regulation.
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: So Melody, thank you so much for joining with us
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: this morning. We appreciate you so much for having me.
• 45:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, thanks Melody, and stay on it, and you know,
• 45:31
  Speaker 5: we'll just keep working on it.
• 45:33
  Speaker 8: We'll just keep working at it, you know, making off noise.
• 45:36
  Speaker 8: I'm not. I'm going to be the squeaky wheel until.
• 45:41
  Speaker 5: Make phone calls, you know, stand out front. It's legal
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: to stay on you know, public property.
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: It's you know, it's tough, my god, and I'm just
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: you know, showing some some photos that you've someone is taken.
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: Google review photos that are in the video. Here's the
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: the town manager for Williamstown, Jackie. Yeah, yeah, I want
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: to pause it there on this so is she's still
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: currently the town manager? Jackie is right, there's her email,
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: there's her phone number. Okay, that's one route that people
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: can take.
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: Yes, they can certainly send emails.
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: Uh yeah, and here's the Orange County State's attorney, Yes,
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: Colin Semen. So I mean, is it a waste of
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: time to reach out to these folks?
• 46:55
  Speaker 6: I don't think so.
• 46:55
  Speaker 5: I think reaching out and asking like if there's anything
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: that can be done to help, or like I said,
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: if you have a direct concern or a direct complaint,
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: or you have first hand information that is the stuff
• 47:08
  Speaker 5: that's right now, because there is an ongoing case about
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: the pigs that would be helpful. For some reason, the
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: starving condition of the pigs was not enough to go
• 47:21
  Speaker 5: get the rest of the animals. And I don't know
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: what the reasons are for that. Yeah, but you know,
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: I'm not a lawyer. I'm certainly not an investigator. I'm
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: sure that they have their reasons. But yeah, I think
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: reaching out and just letting Williamstown know that, you know,
• 47:35
  Speaker 5: we stand behind them. I think mistakes were probably made
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: in the past, and I think it's really hard with
• 47:42
  Speaker 5: these types of really complicated cases for anybody to get
• 47:45
  Speaker 5: it right, and it's a big learning curve.
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: So here yeah, hell, hey, yes, it's Bruce, Bruce Seman.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: Hey, buddy, how are you.
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: I'm well, man, I'm well, talk to me. What's your
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: take on all this?
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: Well, you have to, I have to apologize because we
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: kind of got cut off.
• 48:05
  Speaker 9: I just want to make sure we're talking about the
• 48:06
  Speaker 9: same thing.
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: Yes we are, yep, yeah, yeah we are. We're talking
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: about Heidi Saven this morning. Buddy.
• 48:15
  Speaker 9: Oh okay, yeah, wow, I'm not I don't really know
• 48:20
  Speaker 9: if I have an opinion on it yet.
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: To be honest with you, this is you know this,
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: this is a situation in Williamstown where there's there's there's
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: just a proven history, a proven record of some some
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: pretty hardcore neglect. This is a lady who's you just said, Laurie.
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: She's got forty four.
• 48:45
  Speaker 5: Dogs licensed, but she has more on the property. We
• 48:49
  Speaker 5: we know that there was at least sixty five as
• 48:55
  Speaker 5: of last fall, but again we had to know that
• 48:58
  Speaker 5: one dog is at least that one dog deceased, and
• 49:01
  Speaker 5: there might be others. I do think that she hasn't
• 49:04
  Speaker 5: gotten any more animals because of the recent, very recent scrutiny.
• 49:09
  Speaker 5: But yeah, quite a few animals for one person.
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: Bruce, you are such an outspoken animal lover, especially You've
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: you've got a huge heart for for dogs. Yeah, you've
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: you've written a book about this, Please do tell about
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: you and how you feel about all this.
• 49:32
  Speaker 9: Well, you know, whenever you get into a situation like this,
• 49:35
  Speaker 9: it's tough. You know, as you're as your guest so eloquently,
• 49:38
  Speaker 9: you know, spelled out, it's there are so many pieces
• 49:43
  Speaker 9: to this. When you have situations like this, you got
• 49:45
  Speaker 9: to peel them back and find out what's what's really transpiring.
• 49:50
  Speaker 9: But you know that many dogs and that type of
• 49:53
  Speaker 9: situation typically it's not gonna end well, you know, yeah.
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: What about the fact Bruce, that Vermont just doesn't have
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: a lot of state regulation behind this that can support
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: efforts to have the welfare of animals, wild animals, livestock,
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: domestic animals in the best interest.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's.
• 50:28
  Speaker 9: Really a tough it's it's really a difficult situation to
• 50:33
  Speaker 9: break down and to talk about because you have a
• 50:36
  Speaker 9: lot of responsible animal guardians who do take care of
• 50:39
  Speaker 9: their animals, whether they're live stock or dogs or cats
• 50:43
  Speaker 9: or or whatever they have. But you know, in situations
• 50:47
  Speaker 9: like this, there really needs to be some teeth to
• 50:50
  Speaker 9: legislation when there are situations that come up and the
• 50:55
  Speaker 9: animals are found to not have Uh, are you know,
• 50:58
  Speaker 9: are not being taken care of, They're being abused, They're
• 51:01
  Speaker 9: in a hoarding situation. You know, I've always personally felt
• 51:05
  Speaker 9: and you know, you and I have talked about this
• 51:07
  Speaker 9: many times previously.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: JD.
• 51:09
  Speaker 9: I really think that there needs to be a register,
• 51:12
  Speaker 9: a national register for people that have situations like this,
• 51:17
  Speaker 9: and that if they are brought up on charges or
• 51:21
  Speaker 9: they're investigator and it's found out that there is an
• 51:24
  Speaker 9: abusive situation, they should not be permitted to have animals.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Again.
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: Yeah, we saw that happen with a canine gem and
• 51:33
  Speaker 5: the owner from a canine gem. You know, she was
• 51:37
  Speaker 5: facing a lot of pressure here in Vermont, you know,
• 51:41
  Speaker 5: to shut down whatever her operation was, I think in
• 51:43
  Speaker 5: Wnooski or Willison, I can't remember. And then she moved
• 51:47
  Speaker 5: to New York, and New York has a lot of
• 51:49
  Speaker 5: regulations and so they actually were able to bring charges.
• 51:52
  Speaker 6: I think she ended up.
• 51:53
  Speaker 5: I haven't followed it because you know, the court case
• 51:55
  Speaker 5: has gone for so long, but initially I know she
• 51:57
  Speaker 5: was charged like forty eight or forty nine counts of
• 51:59
  Speaker 5: animal cruelty for running like an in home based rescue
• 52:02
  Speaker 5: in New York and not falling regulation. And she had
• 52:05
  Speaker 5: been doing this in Vermont for years and years and years.
• 52:08
  Speaker 5: You know, I personally worked with a lot of dogs
• 52:10
  Speaker 5: that were adopted from her organization with a lot of
• 52:13
  Speaker 5: challenges and medical issues, and so it was really nice
• 52:17
  Speaker 5: to see that.
• 52:20
  Speaker 6: She kind of caught up with her.
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: But you know, I'm in a lot of different Facebook groups,
• 52:24
  Speaker 5: and she started looking for property in Georgia while she
• 52:27
  Speaker 5: was still facing charges in New York, and it's like
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: she's just gonna go do it again, you know. So
• 52:30
  Speaker 5: I agree with you that there needs to be some
• 52:32
  Speaker 5: type of national regulation because when you just hop over
• 52:36
  Speaker 5: the border to a different state, you can just start
• 52:39
  Speaker 5: all over again.
• 52:41
  Speaker 6: Frustrating. Yeah. Yeah, you know.
• 52:44
  Speaker 9: The biggest impediment to animals being traded better, if you
• 52:49
  Speaker 9: don't mind me being completely blunt, is that they are
• 52:53
  Speaker 9: considered to be property. And what that means in a
• 52:57
  Speaker 9: lot of place is that they have no more protection
• 52:59
  Speaker 9: than all lawnmower or or a piece of uh, you know,
• 53:04
  Speaker 9: a piece of disposable property. And when people are held
• 53:10
  Speaker 9: accountable what they've said, and you've probably run into this yourself,
• 53:13
  Speaker 9: they say, well, this is my property. I can do
• 53:15
  Speaker 9: whatever I want with it, and that's that's just that's ludicrous.
• 53:19
  Speaker 9: That first of all, that makes no sense.
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: And well we we don't. We don't say that about
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: We can't say that about our our our own children.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: Bruce, No, you you can't. And you know what, JD.
• 53:32
  Speaker 9: The biggest thing for me, the biggest issue that I
• 53:35
  Speaker 9: have with this is that our kids are watching what
• 53:38
  Speaker 9: we're doing with this, and when when the authorities or
• 53:44
  Speaker 9: the police or whatever, when they're not able to step
• 53:47
  Speaker 9: in and rectify the situation, what message does that send? Right?
• 53:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, from my experience with a situation similar to this
• 53:56
  Speaker 5: in other states is from first complaint to maybe a
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: seizure of the animals or convincing the owner to relinquish,
• 54:04
  Speaker 5: which is always best case scenario by the way, because
• 54:07
  Speaker 5: once you go into seizing animals, there's oftentimes, especially with
• 54:11
  Speaker 5: home run rescues, custody dispute because their property. So then
• 54:15
  Speaker 5: the animals kind of live in limbo for a while
• 54:17
  Speaker 5: while the court case is going on. So you know,
• 54:20
  Speaker 5: at the end of the day of relinquishment, like a
• 54:22
  Speaker 5: plea deal is actually often the best case for the animals,
• 54:25
  Speaker 5: which you know, you can go back and forth and
• 54:27
  Speaker 5: where the justice is for that, but you know, our
• 54:29
  Speaker 5: legal system and how we handle animals less property once
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: they're taken is varied by state but also complicates things.
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: But generally these cases are two to three years from
• 54:41
  Speaker 5: first report of neglect or cruelty to something happening.
• 54:45
  Speaker 6: And you know, this has been going on for.
• 54:49
  Speaker 5: Probably almost a decade here, but twenty eighteen is really
• 54:52
  Speaker 5: the first report and it just goes to show the
• 54:54
  Speaker 5: complications of all of it. And Vermont, what also happened
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: here that complicated things was a pain pandemic. I think
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: that really made a lot of things challenging for our
• 55:04
  Speaker 5: state and the state police. At some point, I don't
• 55:08
  Speaker 5: know all the logistics behind this, but at some point
• 55:10
  Speaker 5: the state police were like, we don't have time to
• 55:12
  Speaker 5: handle animal cruelty anymore. So in about twenty or twenty
• 55:15
  Speaker 5: twenty one they said, the state said, okay, our game
• 55:18
  Speaker 5: wardens are now going to handle animal cruelty cases. And so,
• 55:21
  Speaker 5: with really no experience in this, they you know, their
• 55:25
  Speaker 5: wildlife guys, wildlife wildlife people. You know, now all of
• 55:29
  Speaker 5: a sudden, we have all these you know, and it's
• 55:32
  Speaker 5: not like some of them hadn't been involved with these
• 55:33
  Speaker 5: types of cases before, but there was a huge learning
• 55:37
  Speaker 5: a shift.
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: There was a post COVID yet for sure, and so.
• 55:41
  Speaker 5: That complicated the case because I think we had a
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: bunch of essentially like people without any even on the
• 55:48
  Speaker 5: job training, all of a sudden in charge of this,
• 55:50
  Speaker 5: and I think that this case should have had probably
• 55:53
  Speaker 5: just a higher priority. There was a search warrant request
• 55:57
  Speaker 5: from state police in twenty twenty one, and it got
• 56:00
  Speaker 5: turned down by the state's attorney at that time because
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: they didn't have enough evidence, you know. And then after
• 56:06
  Speaker 5: that it gets transferred to the game wardens.
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: And you know, so what can a game warden or
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: a local sheriff too basically give you a warning, a citation? Yeah,
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: what does that look like? Is it fifty bucks? Is
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: it a thousand bucks?
• 56:25
  Speaker 5: I mean, you know, yeah, you know, I'm not really
• 56:27
  Speaker 5: sure of all the specific things they can do. I know,
• 56:29
  Speaker 5: typically with cases like this, the first thing is always
• 56:32
  Speaker 5: to try to work with a person and say, hey,
• 56:34
  Speaker 5: you're overburdened, right, we talked about overwhelmed caregivers. You're overburdened.
• 56:38
  Speaker 5: Can we get you resources? What can we do to
• 56:40
  Speaker 5: help you with this? But at a point it becomes
• 56:43
  Speaker 5: are we actually enabling them? To continue harming animals, right,
• 56:47
  Speaker 5: and so then there needs to be like the next step,
• 56:50
  Speaker 5: which might be some warnings or you know.
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: Dave says, you know, mental health is an issue. I
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: mean some of us, some of us just we flat
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: out love animals. I mean, Bruce, he'd have a thousand
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: dogs if if, if, if he could, you know, I
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: mean dog lover with a capital dyah. But he also
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: has a strong mental capacity to understand, yeah, that it's
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: not the best interest of the dogs for him to
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: have that many dogs. It might fill his heart even
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: even more to have several dogs. But at some point
• 57:31
  Speaker 4: we have to draw a line, and some of us, respectfully,
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: we don't. We we either don't know how to do
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: that or we don't have the capacity to do that.
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: I mean, how many how many? How many elderly people
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: do we do we know directly or indirectly? Who have
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: you know, the cat lady, the old lady who lives
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: down the road is good ten fifteen cats. I mean, Briuce,
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: you know what I'm talking about. Laurie, you know what
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: I'm talking about.
• 58:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And I would say, you know, in sheltering, we
• 58:10
  Speaker 5: call that capacity for care. So when you've taken on
• 58:13
  Speaker 5: the responsibility of saying I'm rescuing dogs, I'm responsible for
• 58:17
  Speaker 5: this dog's health and welfare. There's actually like a mathematical
• 58:23
  Speaker 5: equation there, and there's recommendations out there for that in
• 58:26
  Speaker 5: the ASV guidelines. And you know, it's like, this dog
• 58:30
  Speaker 5: needs at minimum this amount of outside of kennel time
• 58:33
  Speaker 5: per day. It takes about this much time to feed
• 58:35
  Speaker 5: and clean it enclosure, And then you multiply that by
• 58:39
  Speaker 5: how many animals you have, and then you divide it
• 58:40
  Speaker 5: by how many staff, right, and that tells you are
• 58:43
  Speaker 5: you under or over capacity of care.
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: And in the case of Heidi's Haven, we're talking about one,
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: one person.
• 58:49
  Speaker 5: Correct, with maybe some volunteers that dabble in here and there.
• 58:52
  Speaker 5: But I'm not sure if there's any active volunteers there
• 58:55
  Speaker 5: at this time. And I will say a lot of
• 58:57
  Speaker 5: the people who used to volunteer, they're left because of
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: the dangerous conditions dog fights, breaking up dog fights, getting
• 59:03
  Speaker 5: bit and breaking up dog fights, illnesses like you know,
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: if you go work somewhere that doesn't have clean you know,
• 59:11
  Speaker 5: you work in an animal shelter and you're working with
• 59:13
  Speaker 5: dogs and cats and quarantine and have diseases. You have
• 59:15
  Speaker 5: to like change when you get home, just like go
• 59:18
  Speaker 5: home to your pets, you know, because you might bring
• 59:21
  Speaker 5: to them what you took from the shelter, and so
• 59:24
  Speaker 5: you know all of those things. But these are all
• 59:27
  Speaker 5: things that as a shelter in community, those who do
• 59:30
  Speaker 5: ethical sheltering follow these guidelines. And capacity for care is
• 59:34
  Speaker 5: a simple mathematical equation, right.
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: So well, there's also some logic in here as well. Bruce.
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: I want to thank you so much for for hopping
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: on with us. Is there anything you want to add here?
• 59:46
  Speaker 9: But yeah, I did want to add one thing. First
• 59:50
  Speaker 9: of all, your guest was amazing by the way. I'm
• 59:52
  Speaker 9: watching it on Facebook Live as we're doing this, and
• 59:54
  Speaker 9: so thank you for coming on it and talking about this.
• 59:57
  Speaker 9: But you know, one of the things that one of
• 59:59
  Speaker 9: your listeners said, j D, that I really do agree with,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 9: and I always have you know this, I do think that.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: If the State of Vermont wanted to.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 9: Stop situations like having like this from happening, I do
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 9: think there would be the way to do that is
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 9: to have animal cruelty charges that have some teeth in them.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 9: A lot of people don't agree with me when I
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 9: say that because and I've heard this many times maybe
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 9: you have too. You know, people are doing the best
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 9: they can, and I understand that that in a situation
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 9: like this, there should be some common sense like that,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 9: you know, this is not working.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: And so I think if there was some deterrent.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 9: To someone having a situation like this, maybe they wouldn't
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 9: do it. And you know, JD, you know when I
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 9: lived up there, I was constantly involved in different situations.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 9: You know, you and I have talked many times about
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 9: wishing that the laws had.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: More teeth and everything. You know, no pun intended.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 9: I just think that, you know, people have to be
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 9: vigilant and if they see situations like this, you know,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 9: call the police, call, you know, call people that work
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 9: out on behalf of animals, and just you know, we
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 9: are their voice.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: They can't do it themselves.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 9: And so that's why shows like yours and your guests,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 9: I mean, it's why it's so important. And you know,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 9: I'm just I'm grateful that you guys do this because
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 9: your show is so important.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: JD.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Bruce Well well said man right there.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 5: This has been a great opportunity to talk about this
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 5: because you know, I think it's it's interesting because I think, again,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 5: this has been going on for so long that even
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 5: some of the media outlets that had been covering it previously,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 5: it's almost in journalism you don't ever want to pick
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 5: on one person because then you seem biased, right, right,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 5: and so it's like, well, what's you know, It's like, so,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 5: I think it's really amazing that we had this opportunity
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 5: to talk about this today because it's still ongoing and
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 5: there's animals that are lives are still compromised in my opinion,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, I.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: Mean, what's what's our ultimate hope here as a result
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: of this podcast? That the Orange County State's Attorney is
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: going to get some more phone calls, Yeah, that letters
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 4: will be written.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think you.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 4: I think you've done a really good job talking about
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: the town of Williamstown and giving them some pretty good
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: recognition that they're aware of this. Yes, they've done all
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: that they can for the.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 6: Most part, for the most part. Yeah, Yeah, what what
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 6: do we do? Yeah?
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: So what do we do here is, especially folks who
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 5: live in Orange County need to make it known that
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 5: this is a thing they're concerned about. So if you're
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 5: a resident of that county and especially a resident of
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 5: Williamstown contacting the state's attorney to let them know how
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 5: this is affecting them, affecting their town.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 6: You know, people know who.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 5: Williams like, they know Williamstown now in a lot of ways.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 5: So your voices are the most important.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: Orange County State's Attorney Colin Seaman eight oh two six
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: eight five three zero three.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 6: Six awesome yep.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 5: And then the other thing that I do have, So
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 5: if you join my Facebook group or our if I
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 5: should say our, I started it, but it's really a
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 5: community effort. Our Facebook group is called shut Down Heidie's Haven.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 5: It is a private group, but you should be able
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 5: to locate it, and if not, I will make sure
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 5: JD has my email address and the show notes or
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 5: something so you can reach out and I'll find it
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 5: for you. But in there in the featured post section,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 5: so if you're on your phone, it's not always as
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 5: easy to find. But in the featured post section of that,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 5: I do have a document that has officials to contact
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 5: and it tells you who to contact for what.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 6: So if there's a loose dog, you contact animal control.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 5: If you have an animal welfare concern, you're going to
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: contact the game wardens if you you know, so that
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 5: will lay out very specifically who you can contact, base
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 5: on whatever it is that you are contacting them about,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 5: and that's really helpful. And then I think the biggest
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 5: thing is just continuing to help me spread awareness about this.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 5: We just had two really big cases happen in Lower Vermont.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 5: One was a hoarding situation where there's a multi species
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 5: and a lot of sugar gliders actually, and so that
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 5: owner decided at the end of the day to relinquish
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 5: all the animals, which I said sometimes is better for
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 5: the animals because then they can get them adopted immediately
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 5: instead of having to hold them during a court case.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 6: And then there's the Dorset.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 5: Well the Dorset, oh yeah, the Dorset has them, but
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 5: the horse breeder and they just took thirty nine horses
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 5: off that property and that was a fish and wildlife case,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 5: you know. So I think that we're moving forward with
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 5: a lot of these things that have been dwindling in
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 5: the background for a long time, and I just really
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 5: feel like it's time for the animals at Heidi Saan
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 5: to be saved and rescued. And I always I want
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 5: to say to people that I don't want at the
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 5: end of the day, Like I don't want Sheila McGregor
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 5: to lose all of her animals.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 6: She loves them.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 5: She has like a grip of chihuahuas that I know
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 5: she loves very much. She has her senior pit bull, Consuela.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 6: That is not what I want.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 5: I want the rescue in this saying she ready to
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 5: shut down because she's not capable currently in my opinion,
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 5: of taking care of that many animals as a single
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 5: household person.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: So you know, you're not just looking to me a
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: pain in the ass, You're not just looking to be
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: an enemy and cause of fight here, what you just
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: said is really profound.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I understand because animals help people. People need animals
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 5: in their life.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 4: For lots of different reasons, for lots.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 6: Of different reasons.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 5: And like, if you know, I understand the complications even
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 5: saying something that out loud, But at the end of
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 5: the day, I think that if we were to just
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 5: take every animal away, and that might happen at some point,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 5: but you know, it's just going to cause somebody to
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 5: want to go back and get more. But like, if
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 5: they can maintain the animals, they have the best relationships
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 5: with and I've seen that successfully happen in other cases
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 5: in the past, So, you know, I really want people
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 5: to understand that pieces I'm not just out here trying
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 5: to ruin somebody's life. But at the end of the day,
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 5: animal lives are being ruined ended due to neglect and
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 5: improper management. And I am an advocate for animals, and
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 5: not just that they are alive, but that they are
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 5: having a functional life of welfare, right, and that can't
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 5: happen in a long term sheltering situation where crates are
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 5: stacked on top of each other and things of that nature.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: Of course. Yeah, outstanding. Yeah, So I can't thank you
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: enough for being brave enough.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 6: To Oh, I hate it. I don't like to be
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 6: I like put like wanted to do this.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, just to come in here and to do
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: this really says a lot about you that you're you're
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 4: willing to be that face. You're willing to not only
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: come in a microphone but also a camera and say, look,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 4: here's what's going on. Let's be transparent about this. I mean,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: it's it's a problem. Let's let's try to find a solution. Yeah,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 4: and let's not just you know, let's just not spew
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 4: a bunch of hatred and anger on social media, but
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 4: let's find a real solution to this, honestly for the
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 4: sake of the animals.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, And I will say to like, my
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 5: whole goal with this was public awareness in hopes that
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 5: because that's really the only way that it's gonna get
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 5: shut down the rescue is that the state steps into
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: do something, because we know at this point the pattern
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 5: behavior shows the likelihood of those animals all being surrendered
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 5: is very unlikely. And I've kind of for myself obviously
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 5: as just a concerned citizen who happens to also have
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 5: expertise in the field, is I've hit my limit of
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 5: what I can do. I've gotten all the foyer requests.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 5: I've helped people direct their complaints, I've you know, helped
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 5: with raising awareness, putting together videos. I should probably do
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 5: another one, but it's a lot of work. But now
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 5: it is kind of in the hands of the state
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 5: and what the state wants to do with it, And
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 5: so I need help from people other than me, because
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 5: they're tired of hearing Whatllery loss.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 6: At this point.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 5: I need people who are concerned, who are citizens of
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 5: Vermont and residents of Orange County to make their voices
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 5: heard just as much.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 4: Totally understand.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 5: So, you know, I guess that's also one of the
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 5: reasons I came today is because I'm I also need
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 5: help to make sure that we help these animals.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 6: You know, help us help them.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: You're doing a hell of a job. Sorry, I am.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 4: I am so so honored that you came in here
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 4: this morning. I think the whistle has been blown for
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 4: quite a while here on this particular case. Sure, but
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 4: it is definitely high time that we really have a
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 4: look at things, figure out what can be done and
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 4: are from a legislature how we can really, as as
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 4: Bruce says, get some teeth on some legislation here too. Yeah,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: to make things better in Vermont, in our inner state.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, Vermont.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 5: I mean, this is the one that I've gotten most
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 5: involved with because it from my experience, like seeing other cases,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 5: it usually is one person who's like, wait a second
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 5: and really takes up the part time job.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 6: Four.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 5: But there are certainly other situations like this in Vermont
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 5: for sure, and so you know, it's it's time our
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 5: state does something. And I also think it's not unique
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 5: to our state, which is why a lot of other
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 5: states have put regulations in place.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 4: Very very true, very true. Thanks for coming in here,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 4: absolutely thank yeah, and don't forget to like and follow
• 1:10:16
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• 1:10:19
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• 1:10:27
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• 1:10:31
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• 1:10:37
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• 1:10:45
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