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Quick Cave By The Bad Seeds · Politix

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: The strong filibuster defenders were like,
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: it is more important that after we lose power in the future,
• 0:10
  we are able to block Republicans from doing things than that we
• 0:14
  be able to do
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: things now when we hold power.
• 0:17
  They were not saying what you said,
• 0:19
  what I said,
• 0:20
  what Adam Jentleson said,
• 0:22
  right?
• 0:22
  Like the true filibuster heads from the moment this shutdown
• 0:26
  began were like,
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, everyone.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so the party's voters,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: who were elated after huge victories in last week's off-year elections,
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: are pissed again and demanding consequences.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: We'll discuss why the standoff ended the way it did and what,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: if anything,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: it means for politics going forward.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to hear the whole conversation,
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: you can upgrade your subscription to paid at politics.fm.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to the Politics Podcast.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Brian Boyler.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Matthew Iglesias.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: We are here recording Tuesday disrespecting the troops and,
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: maybe applying- Well,
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think we still respect the active duty troops.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's the veterans who we disrespect.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, there's overlap, I think.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: And we're, you know, we're shopping for 50-year mortgages.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: We got all kinds of new things.
• 1:41
  We might soon get cash directly from Donald Trump to buy health
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  insurance that we
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: still can't afford.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Things are looking up.
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  SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, I wish we should turn.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: We should turn to the future at some point.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Shut down.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, I don't think we have a strong disagreement about this.
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  SPEAKER_00: Curious decision to surrender.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: But so I want to I want to step back.
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  SPEAKER_00: But the day before the shutdown,
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  SPEAKER_00: when it was clear that Democrats were going down this road,
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  SPEAKER_00: what did you expect was going to happen?
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  Like,
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  not what did you want to happen or what did you think Democrats
• 2:21
  should do?
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  Like,
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  what was your what was your forecast for what was coming down
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  the pike?
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  SPEAKER_02: Essentially what we got, you know, the.
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  SPEAKER_02: There was a blip,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  like in the since we last recorded where there was there was
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  news that a cave like
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  SPEAKER_02: this was coming,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  reopen the government in exchange essentially for a promised
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  vote on restoring the
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  SPEAKER_02: ACA expanded subsidies.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then it didn't come together because Mike Johnson,
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  SPEAKER_02: the speaker,
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  SPEAKER_02: said,
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm not promising a vote on anything.
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  SPEAKER_02: So then they, you know, Democrats pulled back the deal.
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  SPEAKER_02: Schumer offered a new one.
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  SPEAKER_02: One year, like a CR, clean CR plus a year extension in the subsidies.
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  SPEAKER_02: Republicans rejected it.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so at that point,
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  SPEAKER_02: it was pretty clear that if a cave was going to happen,
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  SPEAKER_02: it was going to be on Republican terms rather than Democratic terms.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not saying a week ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm saying like a month and a half ago.
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  SPEAKER_02: Oh, oh, oh, oh.
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  SPEAKER_02: OK, well, geez, like.
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  I want to answer the question both like in terms of like what I
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  expect because of
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  my low opinion of the Democratic caucus in the Senate versus
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  what I think was
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  SPEAKER_02: achievable by the same people.
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  SPEAKER_00: No,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: I want the low opinion question,
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  SPEAKER_00: though,
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  SPEAKER_00: because I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think this is an important part of this,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like there was a time.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is why I'm saying the day before the shutdown.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: So like Senate Democrats had committed to.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not passing a clean CR,
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  but they had not like had total replacement of the caucus by
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  some new and different
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  SPEAKER_00: group of people.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like it was it was the same group that it had been,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they were going to refuse to vote for a clean CR unless they got.
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  Schumer actually made it like a quite long list of healthcare
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  concessions,
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  SPEAKER_00: but like the center of it was,
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  SPEAKER_00: was these ACA tax credits.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: what,
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  SPEAKER_00: what were you,
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  SPEAKER_00: cause,
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  SPEAKER_00: cause I was anticipating,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  what actually happened and what I thought was going to happen
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  ended up being pretty
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  SPEAKER_00: different.
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  SPEAKER_02: Oh, interesting.
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  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I think if I, if I like put myself in my month old shoes, um,
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  I think I probably thought after the shutdown began and it
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  didn't immediately
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  SPEAKER_02: collapse into recriminations for Democrats,
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  SPEAKER_02: Democrats seem to be holding their own in the polling,
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  that there was still a good probably like 33 plus percent
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  chance of just what we
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  SPEAKER_02: got,
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  SPEAKER_02: a surrender without anything tangible to show for it.
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  SPEAKER_02: But there was some real uncertainty about that because,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: I kind of know that as shutdowns go on,
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  SPEAKER_02: the consequences become more painful.
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  And it seemed pretty clear to me very shortly after the
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  shutdown began that
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  SPEAKER_02: Republicans were suffering the consequences of that.
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  SPEAKER_02: And that introduced a lot of uncertainty.
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  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they would actually be willing to—
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  SPEAKER_02: give something meaningful to Democrats to get them out of the jam.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so I remember thinking like before the,
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  SPEAKER_02: the elections last week,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think the elections will be determinative.
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  SPEAKER_02: And if Democrats do really well,
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  SPEAKER_02: having put Republicans in this corner,
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  SPEAKER_02: the Republicans will sue for peace.
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  SPEAKER_02: Right.
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  SPEAKER_02: And now, and now it's like whiplash because they, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, but so I, I mean, again, going, going back, back, back, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like,
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  Because I've been talking to Democrats,
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  you know,
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  before the shutdown started.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I spoke to a lot of people,
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  SPEAKER_00: frontline House members,
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  SPEAKER_00: staffers for sort of,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: mid safe seat senators.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they were all like, we are going to do this.
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  But none of them were telling me we're going to do this and we
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  think it is going to work.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
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  SPEAKER_00: What they were all anticipating.
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  And so I joined them in this anticipation is that Democrats
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  would struggle with the
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  SPEAKER_00: spin war because it's harder to have a unified message,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: that the president can have,
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  SPEAKER_00: that there would be public backlash.
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  And when the backlash manifested itself,
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  which they thought would happen quickly,
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  you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: There would be intense pressure to cave.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then there was going to be the hot potato of like who caves.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so like house frontliners in particular were telling me like.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's going to be a backlash.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be bad for me.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's going to be caving.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I feel very glad that like I will not be caving.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
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  SPEAKER_00: But like somebody else will cave on my behalf and like it will be fine.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then so I thought that's what would happen.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  I thought like Democrats were going to like give it a go
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  because it's what people
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  SPEAKER_00: wanted and because nobody wanted to vote for the CR.
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  SPEAKER_00: But that like just it would fundamentally not work and they would cave.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then that's not really what happened.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Over the first couple of weeks of the shutdown.
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  SPEAKER_00: You could read it two ways.
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  On the one hand,
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  the polling indicated that people blamed Republicans more than
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  Democrats.
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  On the other hand,
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  Trump's numbers were actually ticking up very kind of slowly.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so there was sort of watchful waiting on both sides.
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  SPEAKER_00: There was negotiating and, you know, it was going on.
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  Then starting with the ballroom story and then escalating
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  through to Trump messing
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  SPEAKER_00: around with SNAP benefits,
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  SPEAKER_00: his polling got noticeably worse.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like the fact that Democrats,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: did not believe that they could win the blame attribution battle,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they did win the blame attribution battle.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so.
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  SPEAKER_00: having won the blame attribution battle,
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  other things started playing out politically differently from
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  how they've played
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  SPEAKER_00: out in other shutdowns,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  Like there were people,
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  not the mass public,
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  but air travel matters a lot to journalists.
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  SPEAKER_00: And,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  so you were seeing stories about flight disruptions and you
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  were starting to see
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  SPEAKER_00: stories about hardship related to the SNAP benefits.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: Different people.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is a big country.
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  SPEAKER_00: Different people have different feelings about it.
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  But it seemed like the bulk of the electorate was holding Trump
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  responsible for this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And also that Democrats.
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  SPEAKER_00: For good and bad reasons,
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  had sort of settled on this politically convenient ACA credits
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  talking point that
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  SPEAKER_00: all their members were comfortable with.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, they were Democrats were winning.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then the last thing was going to be the election.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
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  so one thing was like Schumer talked the would be cavers into
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  not caving in late
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  SPEAKER_00: October,
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  SPEAKER_00: said,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's give this another week,
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  SPEAKER_00: see what happens as the letters come out.
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  SPEAKER_00: Things were getting worse for Trump.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like the pressure was on Trump because the blame was attributed to him.
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  SPEAKER_00: They came in the elections.
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  There was a lot of nervousness before the election that there
• 9:33
  might be polling
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  SPEAKER_00: error in Democrats favor and that you might end up with Cheryl losing and
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  SPEAKER_00: Spanberger only winning narrowly.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, it turned out there was polling error in Democrats favor.
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  SPEAKER_00: Spanberger won about as heavily as had been forecast.
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  SPEAKER_00: Cheryl won much more heavily than had been forecast.
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  SPEAKER_00: Democrats did even better than that in lower profile races.
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  And so now it seemed like you might get to like the other
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  failure mode of this that
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  SPEAKER_00: I've been worried about,
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  SPEAKER_00: which was that.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  if Republicans had given Democrats what they I want to say what
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  they wanted,
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  SPEAKER_00: if Republicans had given Democrats what they asked for,
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  SPEAKER_00: it would have been hard to say no.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  If Republicans had said like,
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  OK,
• 10:19
  we'll extend the ACA tax credits for two years.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:24
  And or,
• 10:24
  you know,
• 10:24
  it would be more complicated because I have like Liam in my
• 10:29
  ear.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to give two years of tax credits for a six week CR.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, yeah, yeah.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: But but if they had said like.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: we will attach these tax credits to an appropriations bill,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: like.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: We'll do the CR, the six weeks CR.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then Democrats were like, we're not just taking your word for it.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to go back into shutdown, like unless that passes.
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  But like we have Susan Collins's word that like this is going
• 11:03
  to be in her
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: appropriations package that the shutdown would end.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Democrats would have like won.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: But.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Brian Boitler, Jon Favreau, Ezra Klein.
• 11:15
  You know,
• 11:15
  because there were all these like,
• 11:17
  is this the right shutdown kind of discourse?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, it's an important question.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right, right.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this was kind of where I thought we would go, right?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're like...
• 11:26
  Maybe Democrats would win,
• 11:29
  but he would like feel hollow and you get backlash.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 11:32
  what you get is a full year budget runway for Trump under
• 11:37
  conditions that make him
• 11:38
  more popular because people's health insurance premiums go from
• 11:41
  sky high to much
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: lower.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:43
  And he solved the problem,
• 11:45
  you know,
• 11:45
  at least that's what people would be saying.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:47
  I mean,
• 11:48
  this would be a concern that it was like Democrats pick too
• 11:50
  good of an issue.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like they want the issue.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than the policy.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: But Trump didn't play the Tuesday results that way.
• 12:02
  I also thought a thing that might happen if Tuesday went well
• 12:04
  for Democrats is that
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Trump would just keep spinning his wheels in some,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: like White House ballroom kind of style.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then things would just go on and who knows.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: But Trump actually picked a course of action.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is very significant.
• 12:20
  Trump said he publicly attributed Republicans poor electoral
• 12:25
  performance on Tuesday
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: to the shutdown.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So he was like.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know, the libs are correct.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: This shutdown is hurting.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Republicans politically,
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: like Democrats,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: should like hold firm and like not back down because this is crushing us.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: But he said he didn't want to give in on the health care tax credits.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: He, in fact, moved further away.
• 12:48
  Like earlier,
• 12:49
  there'd been some indication that Trump might be OK with this.
• 12:52
  But he started like offering a serious policy critique of the
• 12:56
  idea of the tax credit extensions.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he started saying that
• 13:00
  Senate Republicans should terminate the filibuster so that we
• 13:04
  can end the shutdown.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then to me, it was like.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: OK, like this is this is good, right?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Democrats now can just sit back and do nothing.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And say, like, this is terrible.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's Republicans fault.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: They ought to just give us what we're asking for,
• 13:30
  but like they won't because they hate you and they want people
• 13:34
  to not have health
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: care.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And like they've got a trifecta like this is up to them.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like ask fucking Mike Rounds what's going on.
• 13:43
  And then I don't know how long it would have taken Republicans
• 13:47
  to settle the
• 13:49
  infighting because like Trump almost always gets what he wants
• 13:54
  out of congressional
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Republicans.
• 13:56
  But members of Congress care a lot more about Senate procedure
• 13:59
  than about like
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: people's human rights or anything else on the planet.
• 14:04
  There are informal whip counts that showed the GOP split
• 14:07
  basically down the middle.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: So he would have had to whip whip like 20 some votes to.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you it seemed like you could have had.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Several weeks of additional shutdown,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: really serious problems for the,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: aviation in the United States,
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: meaningful hardship on federal employees and other things like that.
• 14:28
  But that like the whole story of those several weeks would be
• 14:32
  like things are
• 14:33
  getting worse in America because Republicans can't resolve this
• 14:38
  infighting about
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: the filibuster.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the end of it, Trump would get his way, I think.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And like the government would reopen.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then Democrats could say,
• 14:50
  we like we literally did everything that we could to get you
• 14:55
  this health care.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: They would end because I was saying in that case,
• 14:58
  they would end up being glad that they picked this health care
• 15:01
  issue to stand on.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because they wouldn't have gotten what they wanted.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you could be like, Trump is like out of control.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: He's bulldozing the White House.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: He's bulldozing the rules of the Senate.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like he will stop at nothing to get what he wants.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And like what he wants is for you to not have health care.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so no policy win for Democrats would have emerged from that.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: But a huge political win.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like Rocky going all 12 rounds with Creed.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:33
  And so since the surrender,
• 15:35
  every conversation that I have with the proponents of surrender
• 15:43
  has
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: is like is very focused on the fact that,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: if they had held out longer,
• 15:52
  it's not like they would have gotten a dramatically better deal
• 15:55
  on the health care
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: tax credits,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, who knows?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, life is unpredictable.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: But like,
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's probably true that if Democrats had held out longer,
• 16:04
  it's not like Republicans would have come to the table with an
• 16:06
  amazing health care
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: plan.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, so what?
• 16:11
  Like you you've stumbled into a much stronger political hand
• 16:17
  that I think Democrats
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: were expecting to have.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they could have wrote it out into a,
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: a further weakened Trump,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: a nasty spell of Republican infighting,
• 16:30
  gotten the same issue that they now still have to run on
• 16:34
  against Republicans.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: And no filibuster for when they come.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think back to power.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Which on some level,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think ends up being the issue here,
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: which is that there have always been many Democratic senators who.
• 16:53
  got like bullied into saying they would scrap the filibuster as
• 16:58
  long as they were
• 16:58
  confident that Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema would prevent
• 17:02
  that from occurring.
• 17:03
  But like they seemed unreasonably spooky,
• 17:07
  you know,
• 17:07
  like they reacted to like.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: This as as if it was a really strong power move from Trump.
• 17:16
  And that it was very important to Gene Shaheen and to others on
• 17:21
  the Appropriations
• 17:22
  Committee to preserve the integrity of the bipartisan
• 17:27
  appropriations process.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: To which I have to say, I'm trying to do a shrug emoji.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 17:35
  there are takes out there that are based on some reporting that
• 17:39
  this was like
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: really a secret play to preserve the filibuster.
• 17:44
  There is other reporting that suggests that there are frontline
• 17:47
  members who are
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: being shielded by these eight Democrats who caved.
• 17:51
  And really the purpose of the cave was to get them out of the
• 17:55
  uncomfortable
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: position they felt that the shutdown might leave them in next year.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 18:00
  I think either way you're talking about a failure of leadership
• 18:05
  on Chuck Schumer's
• 18:06
  part because either he lost control of the caucus or he kind of
• 18:13
  just abandoned
• 18:15
  nominal control of the situation to arrange this thing that
• 18:19
  most of the caucus and
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: most of the party don't support.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, clearly we shouldn't take that eight vote whip count.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, but... Super literally.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but even if you double it, that's still a minority.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's a small number of people.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like,
• 18:35
  that's all the people that you could line up that are either
• 18:37
  retiring or not up
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: next year.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like, it's clear that this was arranged.
• 18:43
  I mean,
• 18:43
  I think the two people who we can say,
• 18:47
  like,
• 18:47
  most clearly wanted this is...
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're sorry, the one person is Catherine Cortez Masto, right?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because she is like,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:00
  so I guess you would characterize like the Democratic Senate
• 19:04
  front line is
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: basically two from Nevada,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: two from Georgia.
• 19:09
  Fetterman from Pennsylvania,
• 19:11
  who's been,
• 19:11
  I should say,
• 19:13
  not involved really in caucus strategy.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Slotkin from Michigan and Gallego and Kelly from Arizona.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:23
  And so all those frontline members have kind of mixed motives
• 19:25
  on many things where
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: it's like they're concerned about macro politics.
• 19:30
  But like they also really need their small donors and their
• 19:32
  volunteers and other
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: kinds of things like that.
• 19:34
  But Masto from the beginning was like,
• 19:37
  I am voting with the Republicans on this.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I do not agree with this strategy at all.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then Rosen also voted with her.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I assume those two like know each other.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: They get along.
• 19:50
  So like they seem to have like really felt that like caving was
• 19:55
  solid strategy here.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: The Georgians.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Were a mixed bag, right?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like Ossoff is on the Appropriations Committee.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: So he was in some of the negotiations, but not in the final group.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Flacken, Gallego, Kelly had never been involved.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: As far as I can tell, in any kind of.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Talks about this and.
• 20:27
  You know,
• 20:28
  were nervous before the shutdown that the shutdown was going to
• 20:31
  backfire on them.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: But their confidence grew that this was working well.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: But you have this group of, you know, so like Coons, Merkley, Reed.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like appropriators who like.
• 20:56
  didn't vote for this deal because they're not retiring and they
• 20:59
  don't think it's
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: good politics for them.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, also like Warren on TV blasting it either.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like that feels like the like the quiet votes.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: No doubt.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I irrespective of what the real number of Democrats is.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And look, if the real number is 40, then then Schumer's just do.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: playing the hand he was dealt and we need many more New Democrats.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's clearly less than half the part.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm quite certain it's less than half the caucus.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: But even if it was a little more,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: even if it was like 25 who really support this,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: it is whatever the actual number is.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: It was like watching two people playing chess.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you can see that the more aggressive player, the better player,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: can reach checkmate in like two moves in a number of ways.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like he's really got the other guy well pinned.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then they tip their king over.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because like one option,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: as you suggest,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: was to just say,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: nope,
• 22:08
  like if you guys want to reopen the government without dealing
• 22:12
  us in at all,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: abolish the filibuster,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: So that would have been one way out of it.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're secretly like,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: there are actually eight,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: nine,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: ten of us who want to keep the filibuster.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And especially now,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: because,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 22:29
  giving away the filibuster would tend to just give Trump a
• 22:32
  little bit more power
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: for the next at least year or so.
• 22:37
  There are still things you can do to end the shutdown in the
• 22:43
  winning posture.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: In checkmate,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: where you're checkmating them,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: and it's to say,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: look,
• 22:48
  we have tried everything we know how to do to get Republicans
• 22:51
  to give you your
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: health care back,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: and they are so unreasonable that they are refusing to do it.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: In the meantime, like Americans, they need a government.
• 23:01
  They need all their government services to be working,
• 23:03
  and those services are deteriorating.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: We have another problem,
• 23:06
  which is that Donald Trump can't be trusted with a year long
• 23:09
  budget because he
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: breaks the law all the time.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: So to get out of the situation,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: if you want your health care back,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: you got to vote for us in the next election.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: And we are going to give Donald Trump a month of budget authority.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And if he doesn't break the law, we are going to give him another month.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're going to give him another month.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that way we can bring him closer to the line with the law.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then we can leave it up to you,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: the voters,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: to determine what happens with health care in the next Congress.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then if I think at that point,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Republicans would say,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: we need more than one month's CRs.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then they'd shut the government down.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: But they might just say yes.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then and then then you have to be like true to yourself.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And if Russ vote and Donald Trump continue to violate the budget law,
• 23:48
  then you have to shut the government down again and not give
• 23:50
  them the votes.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Make them do the filibuster thing like that.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: That.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: You had you could have taken.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: But so.
• 23:58
  But the point that I'm trying to get at here is like,
• 24:02
  I think we need to understand why.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: This decision was made, because.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: From what I can tell, which is not perfect.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: This was a real.
• 24:22
  I think the blinking came from the heart of the appropriations
• 24:28
  process and from a inscrutable.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: But you know how weird Congress is like.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Passion.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: To do the regular order appropriations process.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:43
  Like the case that they are making to me is that like the
• 24:50
  appropriated levels in
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: the minibus appropriations bills.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: The spending baseline is higher than the spending baseline.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it's meaningless under Trump.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like I'm trying to like do.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, like recount.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not yelling at you.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm yelling at them.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: OK,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: because I'm just saying,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's so much consensus among the punditocracy about this,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: that it's like it.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Alighting from view,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: like all the different things that are in the mix,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: because I don't know anybody who like matters in the media or whatever,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: who's like really interested in the question of.
• 25:31
  Fiscal appropriations levels,
• 25:33
  but the appropriators are very interested in this.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: this this three agency minibus,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: it is appropriating at a higher level than would be in the CR.
• 25:45
  And they expressed to me they haven't done the like boiler one
• 25:50
  month at a time rule.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: But it is also true.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is a CR through to the end of January.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it is it is it is.
• 25:59
  Definitely one possible outcome here is that House Republicans
• 26:05
  go back to their
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: tradition of objecting to bipartisan appropriations deals.
• 26:12
  And we wind up in a different shutdown about a completely
• 26:14
  different subject matter.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Can I break in real quick to say, like, like.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: The problem with the situation,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: is it's not like they caved in and it can't be undone.
• 26:25
  But it's that the way they're talking about what they've done
• 26:27
  makes me think that
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: when we hit January 30th,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: it's going to be the same thing all over again.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like you don't have Schumer saying what I'm saying.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: You have Angus King out there saying fighting Donald Trump doesn't work.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so we can't do it.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's the problem.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think Schumer could change that if he said, look.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: We had to get out of this because,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: it was clear to us Republicans were not going to move,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: but they can't mistake us for having no nerve.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: And if they keep breaking the budget law,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: then we're not going to fund the government past January 30th.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: They he can swim back to a decent spot.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't think he's going to.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I mean, I don't know, because.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so here's where you end up in something of a conflict, right?
• 27:11
  Because normally these things break down because the frontline
• 27:16
  members are nervous,
• 27:17
  right?
• 27:19
  And what Schumer did do a good job of here was creating an
• 27:23
  argument around the
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: shutdown that the frontline members were very comfortable with.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: They like this health care issue.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: They like going on TV to talk about health care.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: They like the premium tax credits.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: And those members,
• 27:36
  I think the most electorally exposed members were kind of
• 27:39
  allergic to the idea of
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: having a big fight that was about like.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Government process as they saw it.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: But that then created this other vulnerability,
• 27:51
  which was like the thirst of the appropriators to do their
• 27:56
  appropriations bills.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 27:58
  they found it very frustrating that work on this bipartisan
• 28:04
  Senate appropriating
• 28:06
  had been disrupted by the shutdown and that the whole shutdown
• 28:10
  was arguing about
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: something that was,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: out of scope and not...
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Not going to happen.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they were like out there on these streets,
• 28:20
  like sweating out small bore concessions from Deb Fisher and
• 28:27
  Susan Collins about
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: how much money do we give to this?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: How much money do we give to that?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: They don't like the CRs.
• 28:34
  They know like Russ Vogt had put a lot of time into talking
• 28:37
  House Republicans into
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: we can just do CRs forever.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I know you guys want big spending cuts.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: The argument, sorry, to back this up, right?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Traditionally,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: like House Freedom Caucus members would say,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 28:52
  we need new appropriations legislation that cuts federal
• 28:56
  discretionary spending.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And vote sold them on if you insist on that,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to get stuck with bipartisan bills that raise spend.
• 29:06
  But if House Republicans just hold firm and keep passing CRs,
• 29:11
  we can jam up Senate Democrats.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: it's not a spending cut,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: quote unquote,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: but like because of inflation,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: economic growth,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like endless CRs is a de facto spending cut.
• 29:24
  So,
• 29:25
  you know,
• 29:25
  Junji Hien is like working really hard to save us from that
• 29:29
  fate.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Which to me,
• 29:31
  I think a lot of people have been said like not to be meeting
• 29:35
  the moment at various
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: different times,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is like a really overused phrase.
• 29:41
  But I think like really precisely defines this attitude that
• 29:46
  like the risk of the
• 29:48
  Trump administration is not that we suffer years long nominal
• 29:53
  stagnation in federal
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: discretionary spending.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's just not.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's fine.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, if if that's what happens here and if Trump if like J.D.
• 30:06
  Vance does really well in twenty twenty eight and we have like
• 30:08
  four more years of
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: stagnation in the federal discretionary budget,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: it's like I don't want to say who cares because these programs matter.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: But like, that's politics for you.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like you lose the election to the right wing party.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so now they make the government spend less money than you wanted.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Tough shit.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 30:28
  goes to the filibuster point where like another point they made
• 30:31
  on it is is like,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: forget CR forever.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you get rid of the filibuster,
• 30:37
  like then they're going to negotiate much lower spending levels
• 30:41
  than what's in our
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: CRs.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like, I don't know, man.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like that.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a big deal.
• 30:47
  I mean,
• 30:48
  it's like,
• 30:49
  hey,
• 30:50
  you elected Republicans and they took your health care away.
• 30:53
  You elected Republicans in the services you thought were like
• 30:57
  etched in stone,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: deteriorated really badly.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: And the only way to get them back is to elect us.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, exactly.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you've got to make your case.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:03
  And if you can't persuade the voters that the stuff Republicans
• 31:07
  are cutting in
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: their hypothetical bad CR or bad appropriations bills,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: like it's like,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: that.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we have the elections for.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is like is like to win out these policy arguments.
• 31:21
  Now,
• 31:22
  what's interesting to me,
• 31:24
  I think that like known unknown of this is that.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Precisely because so like Tim Kaine got them to put these like anti riff,
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: like anti layoff provisions in the CR that's going to go through here.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
• 31:42
  can Shaheen and Patty Murray and her collaborators show us
• 31:51
  something in the text of
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: these appropriations bills,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: the as yet,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:56
  unwritten appropriations bills that provide some meaningful
• 32:03
  assurances about
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: rescissions,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think that they.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's like what's sort of out there in this mix, ultimately.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: But the other thing that happened here is like.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: I keep talking to people in Schumer's orbit in the Schumer land,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: the Schumer verse,
• 32:32
  and they really disagree with each other and have consistently
• 32:37
  for the past six
• 32:38
  weeks about like what's going on and what Chuck should do and
• 32:42
  what they ought to be
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: doing.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: The people,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: the Schumer adjacent people who really wanted to fight longer,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: wanted to fight harder.
• 32:51
  They keep complaining to me about the policy wonks who keep
• 33:00
  crying to them about
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: the human suffering of the shutdown.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: we should finish your thought on this,
• 33:11
  but I want to save most of the the stuff about the health care
• 33:15
  pitting against
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: SNAP,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: pitting against,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: air traffic control on the other side,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: because there's a lot to say about it,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: So just what is true about this is that.
• 33:27
  Nobody has ever had a winning political hand on a government
• 33:31
  shutdown before.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like against the president.
• 33:35
  We've had a lot of shutdowns and it's just always like
• 33:39
  immediately backfired on the out party.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we were in a unique circumstance.
• 33:46
  And what is true,
• 33:47
  the like slightly uncomfortable truth that I have not seen
• 33:50
  before.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Totally well reflected in the social media commentary on this is that,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 33:56
  the causal mechanism by which winning the blame attribution
• 34:02
  argument gives you
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: leverage in the context of a shutdown.
• 34:07
  Is like human suffering that accrues to,
• 34:12
  you know,
• 34:12
  innocent third parties.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:15
  It's like the difference between the past six weeks and the
• 34:21
  next six weeks is that
• 34:24
  daily life in the United States of America might become
• 34:28
  dramatically worse as a
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: result of the extended shutdown.
• 34:32
  And since Democrats had won the argument about whose fault the
• 34:36
  shutdown was,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: things getting worse should have played into their hands politically.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: But it takes a certain
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: character to be like, and that's good.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: Let's put the, let's put the paywall here.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Cause I, I was, I was with you on that.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you were on quite a roll there.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I don't know.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: You're not necessarily, um,
• 35:00
  defending the people who thought caving for humanitarian
• 35:03
  reasons essentially was
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: the right move.
• 35:06
  But I think that this is the point worth pressing on and like I
• 35:12
  think will be kind
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: of fateful to what happens over the next whatever it is,
• 35:15
  10 weeks until this coming budget extension runs out because
• 35:21
  it's not really –
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's not really the case,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think,
• 35:26
  that the Democrats – the way they articulated the shutdown was
• 35:30
  we're the hostage
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: takers.
• 35:32
  But there was more – there's more to why this is happening than
• 35:37
  they wanted these
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: healthcare subsidies extended.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it changes the moral calculation.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll talk about the moral calculation on the other side.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to hear that part of the conversation,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: go to politics.fm and upgrade your subscription.