Latest / The Charity Changemakers Podcast / Season 3 | Ep 8 Callum Dixon on leading before you're ready and finding where you belong
Transcript
- Adam Stacey: Really pleased to have Callum on this week's podcast. Thanks so much, Callum, for joining us on the Charity Changer Makers podcast. Yeah, no, that's great. And I love these podcasts. I say this quite a lot, but I love the podcast when actually I don't really know the guest incredibly well. We've sort of had a 10 minute quick video call quite a few months ago now. So yeah, this really is an opportunity to get to know you and hear a little bit more about your career journey to date and things that. Callum Dixon (he/him): Thank you for having me. Adam Stacey: I guess have helped and supported you along the way. But as we do with all, guess, I'd like to give you the opportunity just to introduce yourself, tell us who you are, what you do, and a little bit about the charity that you work for. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yes, so I'm Callum Dickson, I'm Director of Service Delivery and Member Support at Citizens Advice. Citizens Advice is quite a household name. ⁓ are ⁓ provider of advice for members of the public on all sorts of topics, ⁓ well as advocating for change ⁓ for the removal of systemic barriers that cause people to need advice in the first place. Adam Stacey: Yeah, perfect. And we'll yeah, we'll dive into more of that, I'm sure, as we move through the conversation. But yeah, and before we get into that big stuff, we like to ask people some quickfire questions and what the first one being what a good, a good weekend or a day off if they come round for you, what they look like. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, so I adopted a little boy last year, three year old, and my day off ⁓ is looking after him, which is obviously the perfect day. ⁓ if he were being looked after by someone else, ⁓ example, that would be nice. ⁓ would spend most of my time playing tennis, ⁓ eating some good food probably. So that's my ⁓ to. ⁓ Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, that's perfect. Great. And obviously that's going to be about training your son to become a tennis player as you get older. you get that back. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And what's something small that brings you a disproportionate amount of joy? Callum Dixon (he/him): Yes, we're in progress. I'm a really big traveller, I love to travel the world and I know that's a massive privilege so it's a big thing but the small thing is I've got a list of countries that I've visited on my phone so I love nothing more than landing and just adding the name and the flag on the list on my phone. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. I've got a friend who does similar, think she's got a map in her lounge with a sort of the flag, you know, puts the flag in as to where she's been, which is a lovely thing to be able to do. And okay, our final quick fire question, and I love this one. What's one thing people always assume about your job that just isn't true? Callum Dixon (he/him): The amount of times that I get asked for advice on a daily basis, so people think I am an advisor, which years and years ago I was, but I'm very, very out of touch with that and so I cannot give advice. ⁓ And the other one I got, I had once when I was a chief exec was one of my board members asked me what my day job was. Adam Stacey: Yeah, that's slightly worrying isn't it? Yeah, and then when the board don't even know Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love that you sit down at the dinner table though And yeah, I guess people asking advice from everything from what? insurance benefits that yeah, yeah whole list So always feels like a really big question when I ask it but I'm always interested to ⁓ Callum Dixon (he/him): Yes. Adam Stacey: Yeah, how people found themselves working in the charity sector, how it all started, how it all started for you. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, so I went to university, I studied law with Spanish, which is a strange combination I know, but as part of that, we used to get invited to quite a lot of like drinks receptions run by the law firms, so they were courting kind of future lawyers. And I went to quite a few of them and I just didn't really fit in. I knew that I was first in family to go to university. I was surrounded by people who had kind of planned to have a law career. ⁓ I was surrounded by people who had kind of planned to have a law career. ⁓ their whole life and I really had not planned to do that. I just kind of stumbled into it. And after a few of them, I remember one of the partners of one of the law firms said, have you ever thought about volunteering for Citizens Advice? I think you might fit in a bit better there. And at the time I was like, oh, this is really good. You know, you're giving me career advice. their whole life and I really had not planned to do that. I just kind of stumbled into it. And after a few of them, I remember one of the partners of one of the law firms said, have you ever thought about volunteering for Citizens Advice? I think you might fit in a bit better there. And at the time I was like, oh, this is really good. You know, you're giving me career advice. Off I go. And I started volunteering and I loved it. I absolutely loved it. I just loved the ability to... use all the things I was learning and the privileges that I've been given to help people who didn't have the same privileges for whatever reason. looking back now, I ⁓ that partner was maybe slighting me a little bit and saying, like, you're not really cut out for this. And looking back now, I ⁓ think that partner was maybe slighting me a little bit and saying, like, you're not really out for this. actually, ⁓ the amount of people that I've been able to help and ⁓ support and ⁓ the work that I've been to do since then been really, really meaningful for in a way that I don't think ⁓ maybe a kind of corporate law job would have been for me, you know, I know it is for other people, but yeah, definitely for me. And then it just kind of continued from there really. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose like you say, someone's seen that value alignment though, right? In that, I guess, you know, can go into clearly you can go into law with all the right intentions of wanting to make make a difference to individuals as well. don't want to downplay a whole upset all the lawyers out there. But I guess, like you say, I guess someone's seeing a value alignment and I guess what was driving and motivating you as an individual and seeing that alignment with the sex Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah. Adam Stacey: So from volunteering, what did that then sort of develop ⁓ Callum Dixon (he/him): So I was really fortunate that the local citizens advice I volunteered for supported me. So I volunteered. It wasn't, it wasn't my, it was my home citizens advice, not the one where I was studying. So I used to volunteer and go back every summer and Easter and reading week and they would train me and every time I went back, they trained me to do something different and something more. And eventually they trained me to train other people. And I started supervising the sessions. And so I got loads of skills, even whilst I was at university. And that's one of the incredible things about our sector is that they nurture talent and you get the opportunity to do things sometimes that you probably wouldn't in maybe other sectors. ⁓ that, I got a job working Shelter, housing charity, so straight out of university, actually on their legal aid casework. So I was putting my degree to good use, ⁓ but all the training that I'd had from volunteering meant that I could secure that job. Did that a while. ⁓ Adam Stacey: Yeah. Callum Dixon (he/him): started studying for a master's part-time and then got job in another citizen's advice. So it kind of just kind of carried on working in the advice sector for a long time. And yeah, kind of moved through different roles, worked at the university for a while, specifically with who were from marginalized backgrounds, ⁓ estranged students, care leavers, ⁓ LGBTQ ⁓ students, ⁓ enjoyed that. It was mostly in the kind funding bursaries and scholarship space. So a little bit out of the not for profit sector, but very much in the sort of ethos of support. ⁓ then ⁓ realized that I just missed working in ⁓ and very randomly became chief exec of a substance use charity. despite having never worked in drug and alcohol services ever, is a bit of a theme of my career actually, just kind of stepping into sectors that I've not worked in and picking them up and learning. And did that for a while and really, really enjoyed it before ⁓ leading merger with a regional ⁓ partner, doing brief stint in a housing association, again, something I've never done before. Adam Stacey: Okay. Yeah. Callum Dixon (he/him): and then finding my home back at Citizens Advice and the National Organisation. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. ⁓ gonna make an assumption here, but I guess you kind of, like you say, stepping into that first chief executive role at quite a young age with, ⁓ know, some varied, varied experience, like you say, from different sectors, it's kind of having to go hard, go fast quite, quite quickly. I just wonder this year how that, yeah, how that transition felt, how that came about, you know, hadn't you know, like you say, hadn't necessarily done the rounds in senior leadership roles and kind of ended up in that position. Yeah, I'd love to hear more about that. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, I mean, again, you know, it's one of the one of these things about the sector, isn't it, that if you see potential in someone, you can take it and run with it. I, ⁓ I had, I mean, the the organisation I went to be chief exec at was small. So it was it was sort of 400, 500,000 turnover. So, well, actually not small in the in the broader context of the charity sector, but certainly small compared to some of the organisations I've been working in and have worked in since. And I it was a recruiter actually that that I'd known that contacted me about the role. And I'd been thinking about what was next after working in higher education and wanting to get back into the voluntary sector. And, yeah, I think I was I think I was like 25, 26. So really, really didn't have a lot of life experience, alone leadership experience. And looking back now, I was definitely too, I wasn't ready for the job at all. I remember having that conversation with my mom when I got it being like, I don't know if I can actually do this. And at the interview, the first stage, funnily enough, was a founder, chief exec. So she founded it 40 years ago, the same board. for years, which was fascinating and brilliant committed people, know, who really cared about the service. ⁓ my first interview, I met the team and the chief exec phoned me after, she said, ⁓ their feedback was that you were too young. And I remember thinking, well, there's not really a lot I can do about that. I might grow my beard out a bit more, maybe like ⁓ wear hat or something to make myself look a bit older. But she saw something in me and trusted me to take it forward. And yeah, was out of my depth, definitely out of my depth in the early stages. And I made some mistakes and I've learned a lot from that experience. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah. And what you've been able to say, I guess some of those learnings, I guess, is shaping you as a leader in those early, early days, you know, the wins and the mistakes, I guess, that came up through that. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah. Yeah, I, I, so one of the first things I did, it was a really complicated setup, because we were, the organization was subcontracted by a local NHS trust. And that was, that was our only funding. So one contract and previously, we'd had kind of really big, expansive services have been up to sort of 1.5 million turnover organization with properties and know, like, a very well rounded and sustainable organization. But because of the wider changes in the sector and the commissioning landscape, we'd shrunk to just delivering this one contract. So the brand and identity wasn't there. I came in and thought, what is it that we really need to do? What is it that we want to do as an organization? And yes, the delivery of that contract was important because it was sustaining us, but it really wasn't what we were. about, we weren't really about delivering clinical services, we were more about kind of community and wellbeing and the ethos surrounding it. And I kind of went quite quickly on trying to drive that strategy. And in the process, I think alienated the NHS Trust and our funder. And as a result of that, after about maybe eight months in post, we made the decision to mutually to exit that contract. Looking back, don't know if that was the right thing for ultimately it was the right thing. But at the time, I don't know if it was the right thing for the organization. had a very healthy reserves, in fact, probably too healthy. So we needed to find a way to use them. But I probably could have positioned us a little bit better by kind of running that contract through to its natural conclusion. and continuing with the expansion of our kind of wider strategic ambition. So I learned a lot about stakeholder and engagement and kind bringing people on the journey when you've got a vision. Adam Stacey: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And when you're thrown into that leadership, I guess, of a smaller organization, I mean, you are literally doing everything, aren't you? From, you know, thinking about the program delivery to the fundraising to the finances to the HR to the I mean, I was chief executive of a small charity at 27, you know, literally emptying the bins on a Friday. I mean, it literally, literally everything. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, one of my favorite memories is so after we'd after that contract had ended, we needed to move because we were also using their premises. We had to move out. We had to go and find a new again, you know, brand new things to me. I'd go and find a property to lease and enter into a lease agreement and negotiate rent and all of that. And it needed it was an old charity shop and it needed completely re fitting and refurbishing. And I remember gluing, gorilla gluing some carpet down to the floor because we couldn't afford to get a carpet fitter in, while simultaneously writing an application for the National Lottery Community Foundation. That's sort of trying to do everything and think some things that you know really well, some things you don't and learning along the way. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I think there's something really important about that learning that can take place within a smaller organization that then, you know, will help people as they move into different, I mean, some people say in that type of organization, their whole career, but I guess the things that you've learned there will impact, you know, the way in which you're working and leading today in a bigger And I know a lot of our listeners are people that are kind of, you know, trying to make that step up into senior role. guess if you could give a piece of advice to someone who was stepping into a senior leadership role in a smaller organization or maybe tell them this ⁓ something that you don't necessarily need to panic over or something to worry about. What of springs to mind? ⁓ Callum Dixon (he/him): The thing that I remember most about being in that role was the community. So having a group of peers who I could talk to because being a Chief Exec is quite lonely. It's a lonely job because you've got to, to an extent, your team from certain things and you're being held, rightly so, to account by board who can be. varying levels of supportive and I speak as a trustee myself, you know, I've got that experience in lots of different organisations and I've seen it work really well and not work in others. having that community of other chief execs senior leaders is really valuable as well as accessing coaching, ⁓ ⁓ from completely externally because often ⁓ other local Chief Execs can be competitors as well and that adds a new kind of dynamic into the space too but that was really really valuable for me building those relationships. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that peer-to-peer support, like you say, is vital, as well as that strong working relationship with the board. I know you say it's quite an established board, but I guess, know, that real, I guess, corporate knowledge that they had and working with them becomes a really key part of that as well. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, and I did a lot of work on diversifying the board to bring different perspectives and opinions in and that really added a lot of richness to the discussions that we had. that's a classic of trope of the voluntary sector, the charity sector is the relationship between the board and the chief exec and how strong your board is and how you build it and whose responsibility is that. I think I think it's a long standing discussion about how fit for purpose charity boards are now considering the way that the rest of the sector has moved and the pace that we've moved at and other sectors have moved as well and it's such a huge expectation, speaking as a trustee, on people who are volunteering their time to give so much and to understand it. That's something we experience at Citizens Advice because we're such a heavily regulated service provider. The expectation on our trustees of local offices and the national organization is really significant and the fact that they're doing that kind of voluntarily and unpaid, it does create barriers to securing the right people with the right experiences and perspectives as well as a kind of wider and more diverse group of people. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yeah. And that chief executive role, how long were you in the role and ⁓ how did it come to an end and what came next? Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, so two and half years, think two and a half brilliant years. ⁓ I as I said, we we really realized so we'd had huge success after leaving that contract. got big national lottery funding. had brilliant funding from the Lloyds Bank Foundation. ⁓ think it was called the enable fund to help with all the infrastructure and ⁓ of the few unrestricted funders out there. ⁓ ⁓ got pretty decent at securing ⁓ funding. I would never consider myself a fundraiser but I managed half a million each year for a couple of years which for a kind of medium-sized charity actually was good going. we realised that from a kind of longer term sustainability perspective with the way that commissioning was moving that small local substance use services that aren't aren't kind of lived experience organizations, although we did we did shift into incorporating more lived experience into our work. But they didn't there wasn't really a massive future in the in the market for us. Unfortunately, because I think there was brilliant value in what we did. we found that this is another thing about kind of partnerships and, ⁓ people and community we ⁓ a relationship with another chief executive. a similar organization that was operating regionally that had merged with some other of our kind of Yorkshire based partners in the past. And we decided that actually that was a good option and worked on the business case and took it to the board. And I knew that I was ready to move on. I actually wanted to go travel in, but we completed the merger in May 2020. So not the right time to... Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yes, right. Not the right time. No, no, no, no. Callum Dixon (he/him): yeah to be getting on a plane unfortunately. ⁓ ⁓ I found a job at housing association specifically focused on young young people which again was a kind of shift for me into a different sector and I really really enjoyed it. ⁓ was really fascinating, lots of learning, huge much bigger ⁓ sort five six million turnover at the time, ⁓ had corporate ⁓ arm well so we had a Adam Stacey: Yeah, sure. Callum Dixon (he/him): We had housing, we had stock, had a kind of renovations, enterprise as well. So I ⁓ overseeing ⁓ than just service delivery. was overseeing HR and marketing and comms. So really kind of expansive and interesting portfolio. But I was doing that role, a job came up at National Citizens Advice and it kind of, know, Citizens Advice had ⁓ carried through my career. I'd been a trustee. ⁓ for a number of years for one of our local offices. And just felt like the right job. It felt like this is the perfect organisation I've always wanted to work for. They were recruiting a few different leadership roles and I just went for it and I got it and ⁓ the rest is history. ⁓ Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess that kind of Yeah, guess the question is a little bit is it was that sense of coming home, I guess, from that, you know, from that conversation, you know, where you say the partner says, I think there often is advice type think, ⁓ a spite or not. And then the volunteering to now be obviously, like said, director within the national organisation. ⁓ it does it feel like that sense of ⁓ being where you're meant to be? Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, I mean, yeah, I've been here five years, just over five years now, and I've done four different jobs in that time. So again, you know, that opportunity to move and learn and grow and do different things. And that's not that's not like a feet kind of thing. It's more of a I don't like people identifying potential and opportunities for me to do different and bigger, bigger briefs and bigger portfolios. And yeah, it It did feel like coming home at the beginning. I guess, you when you've been in an organization for a long time, you've got to catch yourself about the complacency of being at home and stop yourself from becoming the person that says, oh, we tried that four years ago and it didn't work or, you know, that won't work. So I'm really conscious of not being that. person because I am increasingly becoming one of the longest standing senior leaders in the organisation and that's a huge privilege but it also comes with a kind of burden of catching yourself and still trying to be enthusiastic about the work. Adam Stacey: You obviously talked about change of roles and peer-to-peer support as well. What do you think are the things that helped you to develop within your career? Because it's been quite a quick and fast trajectory to where you are now. guess people listening are going be interested in how you've been able to make those moves and things that supported you along the way. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, I am. So I think you have to have a level of kind of ⁓ you have to tell yourself like, I can do that job, I could absolutely do that job. And I totally appreciate the ⁓ that I have as ⁓ a white cis man talking about kind of securing opportunities for progression. But kind of confident and ambitious and just ⁓ and putting yourself forward for something even if you're not 100 % sure. All of it is good practice. That's all I always say to myself is it's, you know, recruitment and interviewing and all of those processes are muscles that you grow and you can, if you continue to practice. So if you haven't applied for a job in two years and the job comes up that you really want, you're starting from scratch. Whereas you might be against someone who's been in the job market for, you know, months really honing their... the paperwork and the skills. So I think practice is really important. And then I think there's something about relationships and all of that. So building the relationships with people. who you know have influence within an organization or a sector reaching out to organizations that you're interested in working for or passionate about finding out what's going on and kind of creating cultivating your profile with with those as an organization. For me I've I've and I will say about the delusion point that I've definitely got jobs. before and thought, this is a bit scary. And it was a very steep learning curve. And it was hard. It was absolutely hard. in hindsight, was that the right thing to do? I don't know. But not being afraid of kind of chucking yourself in the deep end and seeing what sticks and knowing that there's people out there that can help you to get there if you need to. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. And like you said earlier in the conversation, if you demonstrate that aptitude for a role, there are opportunities and from the founder of the organization, and I'm sure line managers and people that you've worked for recently, that have seen that value alignment, that vision, that mission, your drive for the work will create opportunities as clearly as happened at Systems Advice as well in the last few years with the different roles. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, we see that across the sector all the time, don't we? think, you know, for people, there's an opportunity to, you know, with that right approach to grow their career. So yeah, it's always really interesting to hear how people have been able to do that. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, I guess the other thing is I put my hand up for a lot of stuff, you know, in the early days, I would say, yeah, I can do that. Yeah, let me try that. Let me let me because because ⁓ especially in kind of bigger organizations, your personal brand. is really important and if you're seen as someone who kind of takes on the difficult things and is able to solve them. again, sometimes I've taken on too much and it's been at the expense of my well-being and finding that balance is really hard. But ⁓ there's definitely something about the things you learn when you're outside of your comfort zone and you're stretching yourself ⁓ ⁓ help you ⁓ just to kind of be better at the job you're in, but think about what's next and what you really enjoy. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. And I wonder, I hope you don't mind me asking, has that balance shifted a little bit more, obviously, you know, more recently, like you say, you know, becoming a parent and I guess, you know, shifting in that, know, what you can and can't compromise on, guess, in that and what you can put your hand up for and, ⁓ also, I guess, ⁓ know, what you, what you value at work, I guess, changes, think, ⁓ that moment. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, I mean, there's nothing more humbling than becoming a parent, right? spending eight months being really bad at something whilst I was on adoption leave was quite hard because I'm someone who prides himself on doing a really good job and there's, you know, becoming a parent, there's no guidebook, there's no lessons, it's all kind of fumbling around and finding your feet. So I've definitely, it's definitely changed my perspective on on lots of things. coming back to work has ⁓ really because I I did take an extended period. ⁓ And was really tough. was it was a strange transition to feel like I wasn't on top of ⁓ things I like you know, I like to be on top of ⁓ my ⁓ and to catch up and ⁓ find feet again and think about where do you add value. ⁓ is a strange psychological shift. And then at sort of half five thinking I really must go and get him from nursery. And suddenly you just, your brain has to shift, your context shifting, you're hopping around the living room like a bunny rabbit and trying to be the parent that you want to be and leave the work behind and... know, millions of people live with that dynamic. And it's definitely made me reflect on it means to be a good leader when you've got teams of people who aren't just parents, but are carrying ⁓ of other things that you don't know about that they're living with day to day. ⁓ ⁓ really, you know, really proud to work in an organization that's so inclusive ⁓ ⁓ and ⁓ not just for me as a parent but for other things that I've experienced whilst I've worked here. So I love to be able to replicate that as a leader for my teams and my people and in any other organisation I work for in the future, you know, to bring that real sense of understanding to work would be really central to my leadership style. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I was going to sort of ask that question, you know, as you reflect, you know, from the leader before before being a parent and after, you know, whether things have changed, maybe it's that understanding or that flexibility that you talk about. yeah, things that you think maybe have changed in your leadership approach and style. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, I mean, it's funny, isn't it? Because leadership is ever evolving. So if I look back at myself 10 years ago, I would not recognise myself as a leader. And I hope in 10 years time, I won't recognise myself now because ⁓ still got lots of traits that I don't like about myself as a leader ⁓ I carry with me. I think the difference about becoming a parent is that you're so much more reflective on it because I find myself constantly thinking. ⁓ If I behave like this, what am I teaching my little boy? If I do this, what am I teaching him? If I do that, what am I teaching him? And so I've definitely become more conscious of the power of myself as a leader within my teams and creating the kind of culture that I want to create since becoming a parent. But it's quite easy when you get stressed ⁓ overwhelmed in a work setting to kind of drop back into some of those those that you maybe don't like as much. ⁓ about yourself and I hope that becoming a parent means that I'll do that less often because I have to catch myself all the time with my little boys. Adam Stacey: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I need needing to catch yourself. yeah, mean, blimey, my daughter's 14. I'm still still not quite work that one out yet. So, and it feels like there's even more moments that I have to catch myself. So, but yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I'm always interested in how we think our leadership is evolving and working and as I know, within the organization and how systems advice works and you know, Callum Dixon (he/him): Right. Thank you. Adam Stacey: mixed between office or working from home and with people in a range of different situations and scenarios. Like you say, it's trying to afford that flexibility in a whole range of different situations. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, and it's hard in a service delivery organisation to offer the same kind of flexibility. And again, I totally recognise the privilege I have of working for an organisation where I predominantly work from home and I do have to travel for work and that becomes more difficult when you've got children because you're missing bedtime or maybe some days I'm not seeing them at all because I have to leave early and get back late. And that's hard, but I know that people in frontline service delivery roles have to be there, day in, day out, delivering ⁓ the frontline. And I've been in those roles myself. So ⁓ know that that is really different ⁓ it's hard sometimes to offer that flexibility. But ⁓ ⁓ if you've got that as your kind of ethos as a leader, you can find ways to do it. differently and to make it work for others. you know one of my team will has every day they can go they go into pick up from school and have a couple of hours and then when the kids are to bed they carry on and pick up their work and that to be able to afford that to someone for younger children it just feels really it feels really transformational for their life and ultimately that means that they're more likely to care about the work that they're doing because they feel like they're being afforded respect and being valued. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. And instilling that culture has to come from the top right. So mean, clearly there's a lot of work, particularly in an organisation the size of Citizens Advice, that's having to happen across the whole organisation for that to be consistent for everybody and can be quite difficult to instil. But if it's, like you say, it's being led from the board down across an organisation, it makes a massive difference. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, and again, you know, that's another thing that I've learned sort of over the last five plus years is that the power that you hold as a leader is not to be underestimated. So people look to you for a lot of things, direction, support, guidance, boundaries sometimes, you know, people want their leaders to say, no, it needs to be done like this. And that's it. That's a power that shouldn't be wielded kind of with anything other than good intent. Adam Stacey: I always want to give people the opportunity to talk a little bit about the organisation that they work for. guess with Citizens Advice, it's sort of a household name charity, isn't it? And guess people will be aware of ⁓ brand and the organisation and ⁓ that will have ⁓ with your services. But yeah, tell us a little bit about Citizens Advice, the work that you do and what the charity and organisation you deliver. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, so we're federated charity, so we've got just over 230 members, so your local citizens advice will be a member of the national organization. And again, that's the kind of, think this is the same for all federated organizations, but people don't really understand the difference between the brand and the organizations that operate within it, which is great for brand recognition, not so great sometimes for sort of press news, reputation protection. but we deliver services in lots of different ways to lots of different people. social welfare advice, predominantly that's what we're sort of known for, but we also have a ⁓ role in consumer advice and energy advice, so ⁓ consumers from kind of poor practice within the sector. power really is what we're all about. So making sure that people who are less empowered ⁓ ⁓ result of kind of ⁓ natural societal imbalance of power that exists through the ways that we are kind of set up, that they are able to advocate for themselves and secure their rights basically. ⁓ we also have an incredible advocacy. ⁓ function is all about creating systemic change. So campaigning, lobbying, making differences to some of the policy and practice that impacts thousands, millions of people across England and Wales. And our local offices are all independent charities with their own trustee boards. And they all deliver lots of different services in lots of different ways. Some of them doing really brilliant, innovative work in artificial intelligence, some of them doing great work in the health space. And yeah, it's incredible to work in a you get to see so much ⁓ and ⁓ And ⁓ of the things that we've done as an organization that I've kind of been ⁓ with leading on has been shifting the way that we interact with our Federation and ⁓ at power and power imbalance and doing a huge amount of co-design, which has been really transformative to our relationship and our ways of working and the things that we do and ⁓ how do them together. Adam Stacey: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like you say, can be a bit of a minefield navigating, working in a federated space and that bringing everyone together when you've got such, yeah, different, I guess, different organisations doing different things in different parts of the country. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, but I love the complexity of it. I think I realised quite how complex it was until I joined and the first role I was in was ⁓ of member relations and support. So it was all about the relationship and support for our members ⁓ ⁓ quite how complex it is to try and move one movement, which is what we are, towards a shared ambition when ⁓ the is there but the the resources aren't always because the way that advice is funded is almost a bit of a postcode lottery across England especially. Wales does it better, I would say. don't know I should say that, but ⁓ think it's true. ⁓ it means that you can't just say, we should all do this ⁓ because... it doesn't work like that because one local office might be completely volunteer led or predominantly volunteer led and another might be almost entirely paid staff because they've secured different types of funding so the complexity is fascinating the things that you learn about using soft power because you don't necessarily have the levers that you might be used to control and pulling in a direct delivery organization I've also been able to bring lots of my direct ⁓ delivery experience of leading delivery organisations to some of the work as well. So yeah, I would recommend like working in a federated organisation to anyone, either the national or the local, because it teaches you a huge amount about power, relationships, influence brand reputation. ⁓ Adam Stacey: For anybody listening that's thinking, could they get involved with systems advice? Something I've consciously, you you talked about, you know, that first step in was volunteering, I right through to being able to support the organisation financially, what are the best ways or where do people need to go to find out more? Callum Dixon (he/him): citizensadvice.org.uk, I think we're one of the top 100 visited websites in the UK. you can access advice there, but you can also find out about volunteering with your local citizens advice and how to support us financially. aren't traditionally a kind of individual giving based organization. So our funding portfolio is predominantly contracts and grants from either central or local. government as well as trust and foundations and we've been really investing in our corporate partnership recently as well. yeah, ⁓ giving ⁓ not a big part of what we do, but we always appreciate financial support because it means we can help more people. Adam Stacey: we'll make sure that there's links through to the website from the show notes here ⁓ as well. Callum, we always sort of finish with asking people the ⁓ same of question ⁓ about lesson that you've learned the hard way that's ⁓ shaped as a leader or the leader that you are today. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, I think slow down. That's my, I think when you are passionate about what you do, which we all are in this sector, are naturally kind of driving yourself towards delivering value for the people who need your services or use your services, ⁓ the people that you're there to support. And that can mean either you sacrifice your wellbeing or you don't bring people with you or you're not stopping to kind of celebrate what you've achieved. So slowing down, just taking a bit more time and celebrating where you've got to is definitely the big learning for me. And, you know, we talked about being a parent, nothing ⁓ going to make you slower than trying to get a three year old out the door to get to nursery in time. ⁓ Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Never know where their shoes are. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, yeah. Or where they've hidden them last. That's great. That's really, really helpful, really insightful. And actually, this podcast will be out just before doing a webinar ⁓ the end ⁓ of June. a bit around that about managing burnout, managing stress, slowing down within your ⁓ senior role as well. So if you're listening and that message there from Callum resonates, Callum doesn't know this webinar is coming up. ⁓ But I'll give it the plug ⁓ at point. Then it just be worth keeping an eye out for that. as well. Callum, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been really great to chat and to hear more about your career journey and some of the insights that you've been able to share with us today. These conversations can always be twice this length, I think, for the amount of time that we could spend. we're just so grateful. And we'll make sure that, like I say, that you're tagged up. And if people want to reach out or got questions, they can get in touch if you're happy for them to do that. Callum Dixon (he/him): Yeah, absolutely. Adam Stacey: Yeah, perfect. Well, great. Well, Karen, like I say, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah, and looking forward to seeing how things continue to develop and evolve for you and for Citizens Advice. Callum Dixon (he/him): Thanks, Adam.