Latest / North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast / Could Joe Maddon or David Ross wind up as next Reds manager?

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Could Joe Maddon or David Ross wind up as next Reds manager? · North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: If he ever cuts down on the strikeouts just a
0:02
Speaker 1: little bit, he's going to be one of these guys
0:04
Speaker 1: and maybe it goes down in history. He's got that
0:07
Speaker 1: kind of ability.
0:12
Speaker 2: Welcome into North Side Territory. This is your co host
0:15
Speaker 2: Patrick Mooney of The Athletic leading off a very special
0:18
Speaker 2: episode with a very special guest, our Guy Gordon Wittenmeyer
0:23
Speaker 2: of the Cincinnati Inquirer. Gordon is still a Chicago media factor,
0:29
Speaker 2: best known here for his tireless work at the Chicago
0:32
Speaker 2: Sun Times. As a long time baseball beat reporter, Gordon
0:36
Speaker 2: is still extremely curious and passionate about the job. He
0:40
Speaker 2: feels an enormous sense of responsibility to the fans, the readers,
0:45
Speaker 2: as well as his sources. And competing against him in Chicago,
0:49
Speaker 2: you had that voice in the back of your head, like,
0:51
Speaker 2: what is Gordon working on? What does he have that
0:55
Speaker 2: maybe I don't And if you've ever read any of
1:00
Speaker 2: his coverage, you'll know that he's also not afraid to
1:03
Speaker 2: piss people off. So with the Reds coming to town
1:06
Speaker 2: on the final weekend of a disappointing season for both teams,
1:10
Speaker 2: it seemed like a good time to check in.
1:12
Speaker 3: Gordon.
1:13
Speaker 2: Thank you, for joining us bringing a wealth of knowledge
1:17
Speaker 2: and experience podcast. We're always texting and catching up, but
1:26
Speaker 2: this one seemed appropriate with the Reds coming into town
1:30
Speaker 2: for I don't know what you'd call this irrelevant series.
1:37
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know about that. Back in Cincinnati, we
1:39
Speaker 1: just had people kept telling me with Pittsburgh in town
1:42
Speaker 1: it was a battle for fourth place. I said, he's
1:45
Speaker 1: a battle for fifth place. But I don't know what
1:49
Speaker 1: you'd call this one. Is it an upgrade? Is it
1:52
Speaker 1: a downgrade? I mean, they didn't they boo the White
1:54
Speaker 1: Sox for winning the other day down right?
1:57
Speaker 3: Now? Right, Well, I'm curious, like.
2:02
Speaker 2: What happened to the Reds this year because I think
2:04
Speaker 2: it's very relevant of the Cubs of like, all right,
2:09
Speaker 2: you got you got some talent. Uh, you think you're
2:12
Speaker 2: building something and it doesn't always work.
2:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, that's that's a great point. And I
2:20
Speaker 1: did do a lot of comparisons with the Reds and
2:23
Speaker 1: the Cubs coming into this season. Uh. The first thing
2:27
Speaker 1: that happened were some key injuries. Okay, but everybody's got those.
2:30
Speaker 1: They had him out of the shoot. Uh, a guy
2:33
Speaker 1: who again you don't know what you were gonna get
2:36
Speaker 1: Matt McClain. He was their best player last year after
2:38
Speaker 1: he debuted in May, so he only had four four
2:45
Speaker 1: and a half months of service time, and then over
2:47
Speaker 1: a month of that was also spent on the il,
2:50
Speaker 1: So as good as he was in the time that
2:52
Speaker 1: he played, you don't know what a young player like
2:54
Speaker 1: that's gonna give you. And he missed all season with
2:57
Speaker 1: a shoulder injury and then a rib cage thing. They
3:00
Speaker 1: missed their center fielder for three stretches on the I
3:06
Speaker 1: l pretty much in the first half of the season,
3:08
Speaker 1: including a broken a broken wrist dring training. Now, the
3:14
Speaker 1: significance of that isn't like they didn't lose, you know,
3:18
Speaker 1: Ruth and Garrett what they lost, but for a team
3:28
Speaker 1: of that market size, that did double down on pitching
3:31
Speaker 1: in the office and got a lot of good pitching.
3:35
Speaker 1: The biggest significance of that was they're not a good
3:39
Speaker 1: fielding team, and those were their two best fielders. So
3:42
Speaker 1: they get out of the gate looking the outfield kind
3:46
Speaker 1: of played up a little bit for a while. Defensively,
3:48
Speaker 1: the infield was kind of a mess, and they're one
3:53
Speaker 1: of the worst fielding teams in baseball even now, even
3:56
Speaker 1: with TJ. Friedel, that center fielder back. They just never
4:00
Speaker 1: recovered defensively, and I'm not sure that those two guys
4:03
Speaker 1: would have been enough to put them over the top
4:06
Speaker 1: defensively anyway. And again, who knows what you get Ata
4:10
Speaker 1: McClain either side of the ball, other than that this
4:14
Speaker 1: is a team that was built designed to win at
4:17
Speaker 1: the margins, and they lost way too often at those margins.
4:23
Speaker 1: A team that was built with speed and going to
4:27
Speaker 1: be aggressive on the base pass. We were promised week
4:30
Speaker 1: one of spring training we're gonna be better on the
4:32
Speaker 1: basis this year because we're working really hard. We're making
4:36
Speaker 1: sure that these guys are going to be we think,
4:39
Speaker 1: better prepared in every situation this year when they're when
4:43
Speaker 1: they're on the basis, for instance, Uh, they looked unprepared.
4:50
Speaker 1: Oftentimes they made mistakes they made the way. I talked
4:56
Speaker 1: to one of the team officials who asked me what
4:58
Speaker 1: I saw, and I told him, I said, you guys
4:59
Speaker 1: make too many mistakes and you can't You have to
5:02
Speaker 1: win doing those things. As soon as you lose doing
5:05
Speaker 1: those things, you can't win anything. And my takeaway on
5:14
Speaker 1: the on the base running is you don't have thumpers
5:18
Speaker 1: in the middle of your lineup. So you can be
5:22
Speaker 1: good base runners with all that athleticism and speed and
5:25
Speaker 1: the rules changes and everything, but you have to be exceptional. Exceptional.
5:31
Speaker 1: They made more outs on the bases than anybody else,
5:33
Speaker 1: and the Cubs know a little bit about that.
5:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm thinking of dal slams like a vitamin one
5:40
Speaker 2: a day.
5:40
Speaker 1: With exactly that's exactly what I saw. Thanks for bringing
5:44
Speaker 1: that up, because that's perfect. That's what we saw all year.
5:47
Speaker 1: And then in the field they were terrible, and they
5:50
Speaker 1: did things like stick with the Noelvie Martee, a rookie
5:54
Speaker 1: who played six weeks last year and got popped for
5:56
Speaker 1: steroids in the spring training, missed the first eighty of
6:00
Speaker 1: the year, gets that ten days in the minor leagues
6:02
Speaker 1: to come back and get ready to get back on
6:04
Speaker 1: the roster. And he looked like crap in the minor leagues,
6:07
Speaker 1: and they brought him up anyway, because he's athletic, he
6:09
Speaker 1: looks the part. They thought they could get better defense
6:12
Speaker 1: at third base bringing him up. They didn't. He looked terrible.
6:16
Speaker 1: He was throwing the ball all over the place, he
6:19
Speaker 1: couldn't buy a hit, and then he was the guy
6:23
Speaker 1: who he was the biggest deficit on that team all
6:27
Speaker 1: year long. And I'm not even counting being gone for
6:29
Speaker 1: eighty games. He might have been a bigger deficit when
6:32
Speaker 1: he was there because he was unprepared then. And I've
6:37
Speaker 1: talked to people in the front office who saw more
6:40
Speaker 1: things than I did. Not only was he unprepared, didn't
6:43
Speaker 1: know where to go with the ball whenever he managed
6:45
Speaker 1: to catch it, and then even if he didn't know,
6:48
Speaker 1: maybe he threw it over the guy's head, but he
6:51
Speaker 1: also half assed plays, especially down the stretch. And man,
6:57
Speaker 1: this is a major leagues. If you're a kid, especially,
7:02
Speaker 1: you can't have that. I mean you or I, if
7:05
Speaker 1: if we were running things, would say, dude, you're you're
7:08
Speaker 1: at least sitting and maybe you're sitting in Louisville.
7:13
Speaker 2: Like if I was your VP of common sense, that's
7:15
Speaker 2: what you were running the team. Well, I think it's
7:21
Speaker 2: interesting because like I know, you knew Dave, have known
7:25
Speaker 2: David Bell a long time. I crossed pass with him
7:28
Speaker 2: briefly while he was on Dale Swim's staff. Like this
7:32
Speaker 2: is what got him fired, right, I mean, it's absolutely
7:35
Speaker 2: what got.
7:35
Speaker 3: I mean, what went down with Bell in Cincinnati.
7:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and and we got we got enough of
7:41
Speaker 1: that on the record. Yeah, talking to some people behind
7:43
Speaker 1: the scenes. H it was made crystal clear. Yeah, no
7:47
Speaker 1: doubt about it. Okay, accountability, Elie de la Cruz wonderful talent,
7:54
Speaker 1: amazing talent. If he ever cuts down on the strikeouts
7:57
Speaker 1: just a little bit, he's going to be one of
7:59
Speaker 1: these guys. Is uh, maybe that goes down in history.
8:02
Speaker 1: He's got that kind of ability. And he became an
8:04
Speaker 1: All Star this year. But he also does you know
8:07
Speaker 1: there was a play about a month ago. They're still
8:10
Speaker 1: technically in it. Pop up on the infield, on the
8:15
Speaker 1: second base side of the bag, he's playing shortstop. He
8:18
Speaker 1: goes over and he clowns around. He does some version
8:21
Speaker 1: of that membery what Elvis Andrews used to do with
8:24
Speaker 1: Beltrey and and and then clown around and pretend like
8:27
Speaker 1: he's gonna catch it. Catch it all dropped in between him.
8:31
Speaker 1: The second baseman got the air. So you're so you're thinking,
8:36
Speaker 1: and and and if if you wanted to be like
8:39
Speaker 1: completely generous and give everybody the benefit of the doubt,
8:41
Speaker 1: you could maybe convince yourself that he wasn't clowning. He
8:44
Speaker 1: just screwed up some other way. But as soon as
8:47
Speaker 1: you watch the play again, and then as soon as
8:49
Speaker 1: you talk to anybody around it, he was definitely clowning.
8:52
Speaker 1: And and he got and he was right back in
8:55
Speaker 1: the lineup the next day. And uh. And not only that,
8:59
Speaker 1: but the ex the nation after the game was no explanation.
9:03
Speaker 1: It was a ball dropped and we didn't make the play.
9:07
Speaker 1: It wasn't. We can't have that and it will be addressed,
9:13
Speaker 1: which is the easy thing to say. So these were
9:15
Speaker 1: these were the kinds of things I love. I love
9:18
Speaker 1: David Bill to death. I don't think he thinks I
9:20
Speaker 1: do because some of the stuff I've had to write
9:23
Speaker 1: or about. But he's a wonderful person, just a great
9:28
Speaker 1: human being, maybe maybe the best in the game that
9:31
Speaker 1: I've ever run across. Wow. And he also, I mean,
9:37
Speaker 1: he probably knew more baseball at twelve than I've had
9:39
Speaker 1: a lifetime to ever learn, right, I mean that generation
9:43
Speaker 1: guy is dad was an all star. His dad was
9:46
Speaker 1: an all star. He played twelve years in the big leagues.
9:50
Speaker 1: All the respect in the world for his baseball knowledge.
9:53
Speaker 1: I just don't know that it always that it always played.
9:59
Speaker 1: I mean, he we played for some of the best managers.
10:01
Speaker 1: Kid Yeah, Loop Panela, My God, I guarantee you Loop
10:06
Speaker 1: Panella wouldn't put up.
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11:11
Speaker 2: I want to get back to lou in a minute,
11:13
Speaker 2: but first I'm cycling through old Cubs managers we've covered.
11:17
Speaker 2: Is there any chance David Ross or Joe Madden get
11:21
Speaker 2: into the mix ininnat at all in this hiring cycle anywhere?
11:27
Speaker 1: So, so if there was ever a job out there
11:31
Speaker 1: that might be a fit for Joe, mm hmm, go on,
11:37
Speaker 1: and and that might be the kind of a place
11:39
Speaker 1: that would even remotely considering have a having a conversation
11:44
Speaker 1: with it. Okay, it might be this one for for
11:47
Speaker 1: this reason only now I say all that, because we
11:50
Speaker 1: know as soon as Joe is done managing Angel with
11:53
Speaker 1: the Angels, he burned every damn bridge in Major League
11:55
Speaker 1: Baseball with that book of his and his podcast, and
11:57
Speaker 1: he's ripping everybody up and down that runs anything at
12:00
Speaker 1: all in this team anymore.
12:03
Speaker 3: With all due respect that, with all due.
12:05
Speaker 1: Respect, I forgot to say that you and I both
12:09
Speaker 1: love Joe, and you know how much you know what
12:12
Speaker 1: kind of relationship we have. But the only reason that
12:16
Speaker 1: he could be considered a fit is because the way
12:19
Speaker 1: Lawrence Holmes puts it, like it cause it is superpower.
12:22
Speaker 1: Like his superpower as a manager is making young players better,
12:25
Speaker 1: is making young players believe that they can win the
12:29
Speaker 1: whole damn thing. And maybe he has a shelf life
12:33
Speaker 1: with some of his methods. We probably saw a little
12:36
Speaker 1: bit of that. But this might be the right kind
12:39
Speaker 1: of team at the right time for that. That's the
12:41
Speaker 1: only reason I say, but you you'd have to have
12:44
Speaker 1: a number of people in the organization by that. Because
12:48
Speaker 1: I have Joe interested in it. I do think this
12:50
Speaker 1: Joe made a lot of money on his last couple
12:52
Speaker 1: of contracts, and for a team that's probably not going
12:55
Speaker 1: to pay a lot to the next manager, that could
12:58
Speaker 1: also be a fit, because I don't think Joe's looking
13:00
Speaker 1: for a payday as much as an opportunity to manage again.
13:02
Speaker 1: If if he still feels the way he did the
13:07
Speaker 1: last time I talked to him and Rossie, I think
13:11
Speaker 1: might be as close to the best fit for this
13:14
Speaker 1: job as anybody out there, honestly, because because exactly what
13:20
Speaker 1: they're looking for, like they don't want to blow up
13:23
Speaker 1: a clubhouse culture that has that where guys are tight
13:26
Speaker 1: and guys feel like they're part of something bigger, which
13:30
Speaker 1: is which is the thing that David Bell did establish there.
13:34
Speaker 1: So they've got that in place, and most of those players,
13:37
Speaker 1: especially all these young guys, I mean most of the
13:39
Speaker 1: Ross will probably back next year a lot like the Cubs.
13:41
Speaker 1: Well I were just change managers and run it out
13:43
Speaker 1: there again, but for different reasons. So so we saw
13:50
Speaker 1: I mean, Ross kind of has that right, he's got
13:53
Speaker 1: he's got a yes, he also doesn't put up with
13:58
Speaker 1: ship right, he just he doesn't. And we saw that too,
14:02
Speaker 1: and that's what they need desperately. And Ross has the
14:07
Speaker 1: credibility as a recent player. He's also a catcher who
14:10
Speaker 1: pitchers love to throw to. So if you're trying to
14:13
Speaker 1: get the most out of a roster, especially a young roster, uh,
14:17
Speaker 1: where you might not be able to go out and
14:19
Speaker 1: tweak much from outside the organization as things go, he
14:23
Speaker 1: might be the right guy. Uh. Derek Johnson is the
14:27
Speaker 1: pitching coach there who's done a good job. I would
14:29
Speaker 1: suspect he'll stay. And I think they I think they
14:34
Speaker 1: know each other, and they I think they've run across
14:38
Speaker 1: each other. I could be wrong, but but knowing the
14:40
Speaker 1: two of them, I think they would work really well together.
14:44
Speaker 1: And uh, it's just that the personality that team feels
14:49
Speaker 1: like a fit for David. For David Rossi's personality and
14:52
Speaker 1: the and what the Reds are specifically looking for. I
14:56
Speaker 1: think Ross has it.
14:59
Speaker 2: You had a great a column angle believe it was
15:04
Speaker 2: in spring training. It may have been on Caps website,
15:07
Speaker 2: this idea of the great managerial experiment in Chicago, like
15:11
Speaker 2: this moneyball question of what.
15:13
Speaker 3: Is a manager truly worth?
15:16
Speaker 2: I mean, seeing the Craig Council era get off to
15:20
Speaker 2: such an underwhelming start, what are what are your takeaways
15:24
Speaker 2: and what do you think the industry is thinking looking
15:26
Speaker 2: at what's happened with the highest paid manager in the
15:29
Speaker 2: game in a really sort of like SOCO organization.
15:34
Speaker 1: The social organization is the telling phrase there. That's that's
15:39
Speaker 1: the point. Look I I I think everybody in the
15:42
Speaker 1: game pretty much felt like Jed Hoyer did when he
15:45
Speaker 1: went out and spent all that money on Craig Council.
15:46
Speaker 1: The Craig Council was, if not the best manager of
15:49
Speaker 1: the game, the best available manager in the game. And
15:54
Speaker 1: one of the couple of best, right, yeah, and so
15:59
Speaker 1: you also you'll also knew he knew the division were
16:01
Speaker 1: well and probably the Cubs real well. But what did
16:03
Speaker 1: we find out, Jesus christ If you gave him a
16:06
Speaker 1: crappy bullpen, he's going to get crappy results at the
16:10
Speaker 1: end of the game. She did all the same ship
16:13
Speaker 1: that David Ross did all of it. I mean, go
16:15
Speaker 1: back and look, he discovered what Christopher Morrell couldn't do.
16:20
Speaker 1: He discovered what bullpen pieces he didn't have, and all
16:25
Speaker 1: the way along some of the young players that could
16:28
Speaker 1: play and couldn't play or weren't ready yet. That that
16:31
Speaker 1: ROSSI said, they call him prospects for a reason, right
16:34
Speaker 1: And and uh, council had a lot of experience with
16:38
Speaker 1: with those kinds of teams in Milwaukee. Maybe they were
16:42
Speaker 1: different players, you know, and so and maybe the organization
16:48
Speaker 1: was different. Maybe they were giving him differently different levels
16:52
Speaker 1: of developed players and and pitching pitching that was ready
16:57
Speaker 1: to go.
16:58
Speaker 2: So a lot of a lot of ex cub up
17:00
Speaker 2: in Milwaukee now too, that kind of cycle through the
17:03
Speaker 2: Cubs without ever doing anything, just killing it in Milwaukee.
17:06
Speaker 1: Now, So what exactly? So and what's gonna wind up happening.
17:12
Speaker 1: I mean, I think if they go let's say, did
17:15
Speaker 1: they they did they lose last night or win last
17:18
Speaker 1: night in Philly?
17:21
Speaker 2: They won in part because the Phillies had clinched the
17:25
Speaker 2: night before. Oh yeah, right, you can see those videos
17:29
Speaker 2: and know who's gonna win the next.
17:30
Speaker 1: Game, So kind of depending on Like, I think if
17:33
Speaker 1: they go three and two, they'll finish with an identical
17:36
Speaker 1: record did last year. And this sounds right, and so
17:41
Speaker 1: you know, the Phillies are a better team, But are
17:42
Speaker 1: they gonna roll over as they line up the pitching?
17:44
Speaker 1: Who knows? Are the Reds motivated after the change in managers?
17:48
Speaker 1: They lost their first game after the manager changed to
17:51
Speaker 1: who the hell knows? They're not any better than the Cubs.
17:54
Speaker 1: So maybe they go three and two, Maybe they go,
17:58
Speaker 1: you know, five and zero. I don't know. But it's
18:01
Speaker 1: the same team and it's the same results, and they're
18:03
Speaker 1: further out of the playoffs than they were last year
18:05
Speaker 1: after getting rid of a guy they said they loved
18:08
Speaker 1: a month after they said they loved them to go
18:10
Speaker 1: hire the best manager in the world for the highest
18:12
Speaker 1: price ever and they get Dick. So this is to
18:18
Speaker 1: me what it speaks to. Here's here's why I've always
18:23
Speaker 1: wondered about managing. And I think this almost this kind
18:26
Speaker 1: of underscores the theory I always had. If you're a
18:28
Speaker 1: bad manager, you can make a big difference. You can
18:32
Speaker 1: corpedo a team, you can be a team and so
18:36
Speaker 1: so and and we've probably seen that in Chicago, yes,
18:40
Speaker 1: maybe recently. But anyhow.
18:45
Speaker 3: Are you talking about Pedro on the south side.
18:48
Speaker 1: I'm talking about you might never go back in some
18:50
Speaker 1: Cubs managers for sure, yea.
18:54
Speaker 3: So so like I'm not a lunatic my quality season.
18:58
Speaker 1: Well I didn't. I wasn't gonna names or anything about it.
19:03
Speaker 1: But I think a bad manager can make a difference
19:07
Speaker 1: and and so if you make a mistake there. I
19:09
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of the managers in the game,
19:13
Speaker 1: you know today, historically a lot of them fall right
19:16
Speaker 1: in the middle, and then some of them get these
19:18
Speaker 1: reputations as being great, and some of them prove it,
19:21
Speaker 1: prove it like in places over, it's a it's an
19:24
Speaker 1: incredibly rare, rare manager that can, uh, I think, make
19:30
Speaker 1: a difference to make a good team great or a
19:33
Speaker 1: great team a champion. It's tempting to say, Bruce Bochi
19:38
Speaker 1: is a guy like that, or Tito Francona is a
19:40
Speaker 1: guy like that. Dusty always seemed to get a lot
19:43
Speaker 1: out of his guys, sometimes more than you had a
19:45
Speaker 1: right to expect. If you go back, a lot of
19:47
Speaker 1: people rip Dusty. Go back and look at his record.
19:49
Speaker 1: Everywhere he went, they won. Everywhere he went, they won
19:51
Speaker 1: ninety games plus. So you don't see that everywhere. So
19:56
Speaker 1: there's there's guys like that, but there's also guys like that,
19:59
Speaker 1: like Joe Torre was an amazing manager, Hall of Fame
20:03
Speaker 1: guy in New York. He wasn't before that. He wasn't
20:05
Speaker 1: in Saint Louis. True Francona in his first job. Same thing.
20:10
Speaker 1: So so when you're when you're trying to climb the
20:14
Speaker 1: ladder on good managers to great managers, I think that's
20:17
Speaker 1: a fool's errand most of the time, and if you
20:21
Speaker 1: spend more money than anybody else does in the history
20:24
Speaker 1: of the game to do it, well, I don't know
20:26
Speaker 1: what level of fools fool and the fools are. And
20:29
Speaker 1: thing that is.
20:32
Speaker 2: What I want to shift it towards one of your
20:37
Speaker 2: I would imagine one of your favorite managers ever. Lou Panella,
20:43
Speaker 2: last time I saw you with around the trade deadline,
20:45
Speaker 2: and you're working furiously to put this story together. Can
20:48
Speaker 2: you explain to our listeners kind of where how that
20:51
Speaker 2: project came together and where.
20:54
Speaker 3: Lou is at at this stage of his life.
20:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had Lou in my first first team I
21:01
Speaker 1: covered were some of the Mariners teams in the nineties,
21:04
Speaker 1: and Lou was a manager. And then then I had
21:07
Speaker 1: his first year in Chicago, was my first year in Chicago,
21:10
Speaker 1: and we had a few we compared a few notes,
21:15
Speaker 1: I'd imagine, but uh, you know he we know a
21:21
Speaker 1: few years ago he missed the Hall of Fame by
21:23
Speaker 1: a vote, and then the Veterans Committee got together again.
21:26
Speaker 1: He was up again this past December and missed it
21:29
Speaker 1: again by one vote, and people thought he was going
21:34
Speaker 1: to get in. LaRussa said, we all thought this was
21:36
Speaker 1: the time he was going to get in. I don't
21:38
Speaker 1: know why, and I don't think Larusa was a voter
21:40
Speaker 1: this time. I think he was the last time. And
21:45
Speaker 1: I tried, I tried to get a hold of lo
21:48
Speaker 1: loseman in bad, bad health. He's had some he's had
21:51
Speaker 1: some health scares. The last bunch of years. He had
21:53
Speaker 1: a what he called a mild stroke in sixteen seven seven,
22:00
Speaker 1: now I guess, yeah, something like that, middle middle of
22:02
Speaker 1: the decade. And then he was working for the REDS
22:05
Speaker 1: in a in a advisory role and had a more
22:08
Speaker 1: serious stroke. And that one affects him a little bit.
22:11
Speaker 1: That still affects him to this day. He's recovered mostly
22:14
Speaker 1: from him, he's just uh, he doesn't get around quite
22:17
Speaker 1: the same and it takes him a little longer to
22:19
Speaker 1: pull some thoughts sometimes. And then and then subsequent to that,
22:24
Speaker 1: he had cancer and he he went and sought treatment
22:29
Speaker 1: in uh procedures and treatment in Turkey because there was
22:34
Speaker 1: some deal with the FDA here, not that it wasn't approved,
22:37
Speaker 1: but it was something something about the difference between here.
22:42
Speaker 1: So he goes to Turkey and he's he's clear of that.
22:44
Speaker 1: So he's he's on the upside health wise. But Uh,
22:48
Speaker 1: I wanted to get with him about missing the Hall
22:51
Speaker 1: of Fame. I wanted to get with him about what's
22:53
Speaker 1: what's going on with him, like it's just how he
22:55
Speaker 1: was doing. Yeah, So uh, I tried in December and
22:59
Speaker 1: he wasn't he wasn't in a place to talk to anybody.
23:01
Speaker 1: I try to get a little later, try to get
23:02
Speaker 1: a little later. Finally, the Reds were going through Tampa
23:06
Speaker 1: in July and he was willing to make it work.
23:09
Speaker 1: I went over to his house for a couple of hours,
23:12
Speaker 1: spent some time with him, and met his wife. I
23:15
Speaker 1: think I might have met her once briefly years ago.
23:18
Speaker 1: But she's a sweetheart. They're they're they're great, and uh,
23:23
Speaker 1: we just talked about everything. Then we talked about the
23:24
Speaker 1: Reds and Marge shot and the Cubs and and back
23:30
Speaker 1: about the Mariners and and he's just now starting to
23:34
Speaker 1: get back around again. So I don't know that anybody
23:37
Speaker 1: else talked to him since the Hall of Fame thing.
23:39
Speaker 1: It really it was emotional for him for for for
23:43
Speaker 1: a minute. Yeah yeah, And next time around, next time
23:48
Speaker 1: he's eligible for the Hall of Fame, Bochie could be
23:51
Speaker 1: on that ballot, Dusty will be on that ballot. Francona
23:54
Speaker 1: could be on that ballot. It's awfully tough to get
23:57
Speaker 1: in when there's only you gotta get his sixteen voters,
24:01
Speaker 1: and you got to get twelve votes, and there's only
24:03
Speaker 1: so many spots on the ballots.
24:05
Speaker 2: I mean him to me, I just think of the
24:08
Speaker 2: main word in the Hall of Fame, like fame and famous,
24:11
Speaker 2: and I just think him as as a character and.
24:16
Speaker 3: Just a larger than life figure.
24:18
Speaker 2: It and iconic stadiums, big markets, as a player, as
24:23
Speaker 2: a manager, being around a lot of Hall of fame,
24:27
Speaker 2: you know, personalities, And it takes me back to the
24:31
Speaker 2: kind of the beginning of my time covering the Cubs
24:33
Speaker 2: and how much I learned from just watching you do
24:35
Speaker 2: the job, watching Sully and others do the job.
24:37
Speaker 3: And I was having a.
24:40
Speaker 2: Few a dope beverages after our workshifts and You've always
24:45
Speaker 2: stressed how kind of unique the Cubs beat is. And
24:48
Speaker 2: if I remember it right, I mean you've covered the Mariners, Angels, Twins, Cubs,
24:53
Speaker 2: and Reds yep.
24:55
Speaker 1: Nailed it, yep.
24:56
Speaker 2: So like what I feel, I feel like people go
24:59
Speaker 2: to Wrigley Field or if your Cubs fan, sometimes baseball
25:03
Speaker 2: so regional and local, you you kind of miss some
25:06
Speaker 2: of the, uh, the wider angle, things like what what
25:10
Speaker 2: makes covering the Cubs so unique? And why has it
25:13
Speaker 2: been kind of such a circus? And I don't know,
25:17
Speaker 2: is it have they lost some of that, you know,
25:20
Speaker 2: whether it's lose personality or the nineteen oh eight that
25:23
Speaker 2: great chase like where where do you kind of see.
25:25
Speaker 3: The Cubs now as like kind of an institution?
25:30
Speaker 1: Uh ibm. Back in the day Microsoft trying to try
25:38
Speaker 1: and to establish unfair monopolies or news sources and and
25:43
Speaker 1: not giving a rats ass about the customer. I mean, where,
25:47
Speaker 1: you know, where do you want to start? Like honestly,
25:50
Speaker 1: you know, you know, one of the things I told
25:51
Speaker 1: Louis he asked how some of the people were back
25:53
Speaker 1: in Chicago, and I said, low, it hadn't been the
25:58
Speaker 1: same since you and Ossie left. And it's really true, man, Yeah,
26:04
Speaker 1: And actually that's a microcosm of what's going on in
26:06
Speaker 1: the game with the personalities have cycled out. The bigger,
26:11
Speaker 1: the bigger personalities that told it like it was, or
26:14
Speaker 1: at least the way they saw it. Uh, they don't
26:17
Speaker 1: exist anymore. Everybody's more careful how they talk, and it's
26:21
Speaker 1: everybody's more media friendly, and media is allowed to ask
26:24
Speaker 1: stupid ask questions and get away with it, and then
26:27
Speaker 1: the manager will still answer and not make fun of
26:29
Speaker 1: them like they used to do. And when I was
26:32
Speaker 1: a punk, ask kid asking dumb questions.
26:36
Speaker 3: No such thing as a dumb question Cord.
26:38
Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, I know, yeah right, okay, so, uh yeah,
26:47
Speaker 1: it's in Chicago to me, I mean Chicago always had
26:51
Speaker 1: that allure of history handed down for generations people you know,
26:56
Speaker 1: take their it was it was it's the thin Roycove
27:00
Speaker 1: mystique of it, right, the stuff he used to write about,
27:03
Speaker 1: you know, make fun of him, but he always you know,
27:06
Speaker 1: but he loved him, but he hated him and he
27:09
Speaker 1: and you know, the rooftop stuff was just people on
27:13
Speaker 1: lawn shares, the same way people take their shirts off
27:16
Speaker 1: and hang them on the basket. Or before they had
27:18
Speaker 1: a basket hanging on the ball in the outfield, so
27:20
Speaker 1: they put in the basket up that that disappeared long ago.
27:27
Speaker 1: And and and when the latest ownership came in, ironically enough,
27:31
Speaker 1: I mean they bought from corporation and then and then
27:34
Speaker 1: they made it all corporate. They everything became ultra monetized
27:39
Speaker 1: and and and and uh, you know, defined for marketing.
27:45
Speaker 1: And we've and the Cubs, at the risk of glazing
27:52
Speaker 1: over some eyes of anybody that might be listening, I mean,
27:55
Speaker 1: the Cubs to me.
27:57
Speaker 3: Are are.
28:00
Speaker 1: They're they're the they amplified tanking in the game. They
28:07
Speaker 1: normalized it more, I think more than the Astros did.
28:12
Speaker 1: I mean, the Astros were egregious, and the Astros did
28:15
Speaker 1: it for way too long, and they effed up a
28:17
Speaker 1: whole bunch of stuff along the way before they finally
28:20
Speaker 1: got it right. And then they had all these resources
28:22
Speaker 1: and player resources, and they and they won all these games. Okay,
28:28
Speaker 1: But when the Cubs did it, when the Chicago freaking Cubs,
28:32
Speaker 1: with all that money and all those resources that should
28:34
Speaker 1: be the Yankees and the Dodgers of the Midwest, some
28:37
Speaker 1: version of that decided, no, it's okay. And and to
28:41
Speaker 1: put it in context, we know you and I did
28:43
Speaker 1: a lot of reporting on it. The sale was so
28:47
Speaker 1: leveraged that they literally didn't have enough money in theo
28:50
Speaker 1: Epstein's first couple of years, yeah, to flex those types
28:53
Speaker 1: of resources. So they just tore all the bart just
28:56
Speaker 1: sold off everything and and and did you know did
29:00
Speaker 1: a Kansas City Royals, Milwaukee Brewers, Cincinnati, you know name
29:04
Speaker 1: the small market just completely tanked and uh and the
29:10
Speaker 1: game incentivized it. The rules of the game incentivized it.
29:13
Speaker 1: And when they were successful as a big market team
29:17
Speaker 1: and sold that bill of goods to the fans, that Hey,
29:20
Speaker 1: it's okay that we don't win. Now, take a look
29:22
Speaker 1: at Chris Bryant at Triple A. Wow, look at our
29:26
Speaker 1: prospect rankings. Yeah, look at Mendy al Contra. Holy crap,
29:32
Speaker 1: he's one hundred on the prospect. I mean, aren't you excited?
29:37
Speaker 1: I know, I know we lost one hundred games, but
29:38
Speaker 1: aren't you excited what's coming? And then you know, and
29:41
Speaker 1: and and then of course they did it. And then
29:43
Speaker 1: of course they jacked all the prices, and then they
29:45
Speaker 1: refused to to uh, sort of engage with the luxury
29:51
Speaker 1: tax the way say the Dodgers have, uh and even
29:55
Speaker 1: in a even in an incremental level of what the
29:59
Speaker 1: Dodgers have done to to build on what they had,
30:03
Speaker 1: and it just it just deteriorated. And now now they
30:08
Speaker 1: don't even go all in ever, and they're still sitting
30:11
Speaker 1: at the luxury tax threshold with a bunch of mediocrity.
30:16
Speaker 1: And and what it's done is the bottom line on
30:19
Speaker 1: this whole thing is it has created a culture in
30:22
Speaker 1: the game, a relationship between ownership slash teams and their
30:27
Speaker 1: fans of it's okay that we don't try to win
30:31
Speaker 1: this year. You know what we're doing because you're smart,
30:33
Speaker 1: just like we are. You get it. And by the way,
30:37
Speaker 1: the ticket prices are only going up five percent this year.
30:41
Speaker 1: But well, Grenna, we're gonna win pretty soon because you
30:43
Speaker 1: see that kid in Double A coming. Oh man, he's
30:45
Speaker 1: gonna be something special. So hang in there. You know
30:48
Speaker 1: what we're doing. We're smart, and when we win, we're
30:50
Speaker 1: gonna win, big boy. But in the meantime, you know,
30:54
Speaker 1: it's a process. That's bullshit. That's not what professional sports.
30:59
Speaker 1: That's why they're invented.
31:01
Speaker 3: There's literally rules about it.
31:04
Speaker 1: You have to try to win, and you're charging money
31:07
Speaker 1: for this. So I think that bill of goods and
31:11
Speaker 1: that that new culture, you can pin a disproportionate amount
31:16
Speaker 1: of that on the Cubs for for as a as
31:20
Speaker 1: a legacy for that period in Cubdom.
31:24
Speaker 3: Well, Gordon, thank you.
31:24
Speaker 2: I think this will be our first episode will have
31:26
Speaker 2: to be labeled with explicit language.
31:29
Speaker 3: So thank you. No, you're good, You're good. No, you're good.
31:33
Speaker 3: That's why that's what the warning's there for.
31:35
Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
31:37
Speaker 2: But I look forward to seeing you at Wrigley this weekend.
31:40
Speaker 2: I have a feeling the press spot will be hearing
31:43
Speaker 2: different versions of that grinding My Gears rant at.
31:48
Speaker 3: Points of the series, and definitely owe you a drink
31:52
Speaker 3: after one of these games this weekend. Appreciate it.
31:55
Speaker 1: I'll take you up on that man. All right, good
31:57
Speaker 1: talking to you.