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SoWhoCaresAnyway E16 Talking Today, Preparing for Tomorrow · SoWhoCaresAnyway

0:06
Hello and welcome to So Who Cares Anyway, the podcast that shares learning, innovation and ideas from the world of health and social care and beyond.
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My name is Ruth Germain and I'm inviting you to join me each week with my inspirational guests to hear about who cares.
0:26
What they do, their passions, their knowledge and ideas, and importantly, the difference they are making to improve the health and wellbeing of people in our communities.
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I consider each of my guests to be incredible individuals working with people in new ways or with key messages to share.
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People from healthcare, social care, the voluntary sector, community groups, and more.
0:51
To join me each week to find out, so who cares.
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Anyway, to find out more about me, who I am and what I do, please head over to my website, www.reflectiveruthconsultancy.com,
1:09
where you can also catch up with previous episodes and read my blogs.
Hi, and welcome to the next episode of So Who Cares.
Anyway, and I'm delighted to have Harry Banister on the show.
So Harry's a specialist nurse in organ donation, and I first got talking to Harry at Christmas because Harry's actually the boyfriend of my niece and had come over.
And I started to chat with him and ask what it is that that you do, Harry? And it was just really quite interesting.
And what also came through was Harry's passion for his job and the difference that he's making.
So I said, I'm starting the podcast soon and I really like you to be on the show.
So I just wanna say welcome Harry.
I'm delighted to have you join us and I wonder if you just introduce yourself a little bit more please.
Yeah, thanks Ru to be here and my, I'm a specialist.
Nice organization.
Abbreviated to, which is all we're known as in the in kind world.
And I've been doing that for two years now.
My background is in intensive care now for rest of my career.
And this job has kind of been something that I wanted to do for a little while, but I never really found the right time.
So what, uh, kind of talking to you about the topic.
Thank you so.
I'm really interested to hear more about your role.
As I say, we did start talking when we met before, but I wonder if you just take me back a few steps, Harry, and talk about how you got into nursing in the first place, and perhaps where your passion drove you and took you for that intensive care role that you got and why you wanted this one.
Yeah, sure.
And we say nursing is being my cool initially.
I was at college doing A Levels and it kind of got to the point time or decision making at university.
And while I'm studying potentially all the rest of my online, and I didn't have a clue, I liked biology.
I was doing a level and one of the things that was an option was nurse considered medicine, but.
There've been too lazy in my first year of college to get the grade for that.
And I thought, you know what? I look at nursing, I go to some open days.
Ended up enjoying kind of the campus and, and decided I'm going to quite immediate calling and was slightly, which my mom hated to learn a few years down the road.
Because you are too thrilled that I just, it's like, oh yeah, why not? And so that's how I Berlin into nursing and actually looking back, it's one of the best decisions I've made 'cause I've loved love most of my career so far shall always say, and I'm sure get into a bit that haven't been so good.
But yeah.
That's fascinating, the fact that you've stayed and you feel that it's such a good choice that you've made my nurse, as you know, and I think it's one of the most amazing ques because there's so many different things that you can do and so many different branches that you can go into.
So you mentioned earlier on that you went into intensive care, but was that your first job or did you do something else first? What took you that way? So my first job was actually in care, the elderly.
I took the first job at the university hospital that I'd just studied at, and that was kind of a, you had to fill up for me.
You said, what were your first, second and third choices? And My first choice had been intensive care and that week, and I got my third choice, which was ki of the elderly, which at the time I wasn't thrilled about because it wasn't my kind of favorite specialty.
And perhaps they looking back.
It really.
So I spent a year then and they gave me a really solid foundation in really basic nursing skills and I ended up really enjoying it.
As challenging as it was, it was an orthopedic wards, so lots of broken hips and things like that.
Yes.
Combined with a lot of patients with dementia.
One was think uh, you know, and so that kind of added another challenge to, you know, someone with Virgin Kit.
So very challenging year, especially the first job.
But they really enjoyed it and it really gave me a solid foundation.
And after that year was when I made move into intensive care.
So we're studying in nor, and ever since I was a child, I've always wanted to live in London and that's kind of always been an ultimate goal.
So we kind of decided to combine the two and move to apply for a job in the intensive care.
They all under the hospital.
Which is a major trauma center, four beds, intensive care unit, and stayed for three years or so.
I did my intensive care kind of post-graduate course.
I'll be honest, I've listed around in a bit.
I like new challenges and so we stayed in Intens Care, this being.
Three years or so went into a role in resuscitation.
There was a resuscitation officer in hospital in London, so part of the cardiac risk team and hospital attending all the hospital cardiac arrest and emergency calls, as well as providing all basic life supports, all the way to advanced support training or doctors, nurses.
I did that for a year.
And decided it was a bit heavily for my liking, especially at kind the age of 24, 25 maybe.
So I went back to intensive care as bank, on the bank, just kind of bit flexibility and maybe a year or two is that is when Covid hit.
Okay.
I was working it on the bank during Covid, which was not a nice time for anyone.
Patient by general works in for the majority of all of Covid through set of waves.
And near the end, I think it was 2022, I ended up very reluctantly co to the conclusion that I was burnt out, which was not an easy conclusion to come to.
I've always felt seeing myself as quite resilient and.
Yeah, reasonably mentally strong, but I had to admit at one point that I was completely wasn't Okay.
Yeah.
So I had to leave intensive care, but I didn't know what else to do at that time.
So I wanna pivot again.
I do a lot of things.
I, William actually, I went to do some able agency work on a cruise ship with a cruise ship company.
Oh wow.
Um, so kind of on and off contracts for a few weeks at a time.
And that was really good to see some great places, meet lots of new people and very different nursing to what I was used to.
So it was really, it was a fun challenge and it was at that point you rolled into that.
We saw these jobs come up, regulation, especially roles, and I'd known another few people that had gone into the role during the intention and lend itself well to.
That pathway into donation.
So I applied to it and I got it.
And so here we are to two years later.
Wow.
And it sounds like quite journey actually.
So, and I'm just gonna recap a little bit 'cause there's some really interesting things.
As you talked about the fact that you didn't plan to go to the elderly ward, but actually you quite enjoyed it when you were there and it sounds like it was partly that challenge.
As you said, it was an orthopedic world, plus people often had other comorbidities.
The fact that they might have dementia or other things going on as well.
So it sounds like that was the challenge that you quite enjoyed while you were there.
Is that right to say? Yeah, definitely.
I think a lot of it's probably in hindsight, I think there was a lot of moments during that year, but I thought, I'm good.
I'm really.
I struggling to to enjoy it, although there were a lot of big moments.
But it's definitely hindsight of a beautiful thing and I think that really set me up for a lot of my career actually.
Like the skills I learned there, I was able to take into intensive care, basic through rolling machine patient care, you do all the same thing.
The intensive care and just the patients are more UN will.
Yes.
Yeah.
So I did enjoy the challenge and it really was a challenge.
And it was the fact that you were relatively young then and you've got this vision of what you wanted to do and you were doing something else that was probably part of that.
And then I just wanted to come on to the, about the fact that you worked during Covid.
Do you know, I can't begin to imagine everything that you went through, 'cause it was obviously an acutely intense time and you were working in that intensive care type environment and you talked about burnout.
It's strange 'cause I've been talking about that.
I've been at a conference today and there was a social worker there and she presented on burnout for social workers.
And I know that's a very different thing, but I know that you probably haven't listened to the particular episode, but I had a, a nurse on here called Dr.
Rebecca Myers who was talking about the emotional laborer of work in our types of roles.
And I think during covid, you know, if we are already saying there's an emotional labor to work during Covid, this was sort of like.
Magnified, and I don't even wanna put a number to it by so much for people like yourselves who are really on that frontline seeing everything every day.
And you know, I just found it interesting that you then had to say that it was a difficult to admit that burnout because you felt you were resilient.
But actually the situation that you were in, it's almost hardly surprising.
You know, there's no time quite often in clinical roles to look up, reflect, think about what you're doing, and at that point.
There definitely wasn't any time for you to do that.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I mentioned it being quite full.
Conclusions come to, I think especially they had worked for years in intensive care prior to Covid were two years and had gotten used to challenging cases.
People dying had become a very normal thing and it only consider a lot of the people that were coming into intensive care with no IU backgrounds.
And we're having to deal with a lot of the same similar challenges, albeit maybe not having the responsibility of actually looking after the patient or being responsible for the patient care.
But I think that was kind of partly why I found it difficult to stay.
I'm really struggling because a lot of people have it a lot worse.
Uh, and I was fortunate of being on, on the bank at the time.
Probably had an easier time with it than people who were working permanently with that shit.
I mean, I still worked a lot of shits.
I've had the luxury of saying, okay, I can't do today.
Basically I'm doing the next three days, whatever.
So innovation workshop position, I think probably struggling to come to terms with that was burn out was really a, maybe a sense of guilt, essentially.
Yeah.
And it's interesting, isn't it, because.
I wasn't on the frontline during Covid.
I was doing other things for the same thing.
I mean, obviously I didn't have the burnout, but you feel that sense of guilt.
And it's almost like because we've come into a caring profession, we start to measure who's having it harder than whom.
But actually there is a huge amount of pressure and you'd already gone through working in an ITU and as you say, seeing people dying and the fact that you've come into a caring profession, you're wanting to care and you care for people, that is hard.
You say you've got used to it, but actually,, it's not something that any of us do or see easily, is it? We do go home and, and think about those things.
So how can we measure who it's harder for and not harder for? So yeah, I don't think there's an answer.
It's very subjective and you have to, everyone's jug is full to different levels and everyone gets affected by things to base.
So there's not really any way to measure that.
We need to be told ourselves without.
But we're feeling probably a long time.
Yes.
Yeah.
And more recognition perhaps from the system that actually these things do take an emotional toll and there isn't an emotional labor to the types of work that people in caring professions, whichever ones they are, nursing, doctors, social workers, all sorts of people.
There is an emotional toll that comes with Absolutely.
With that type of work.
So, so then you went off on a cruise ship, which was really interesting.
I didn't know that.
So that sounds fascinating.
But what I've already want to come onto is your role in organ donation, and perhaps if you can describe what that is to us a little bit more, Denise? Yeah.
So my role at the Specialist Medicine Organation is essentially to facilitate the whole of the donation process.
I work for NHS blood transplant.
Organ donation and transplantation are kind of anonymous with each other, but they're very separate entities and who kind of looks after which plant way.
So the, the donation side is kept very separate to the transplant and recipient side.
More reason they, our job is to manage the whole of the donation process, and that would be from the point where.
Intensive care medical team, identify a patient who meets the criteria for spinal to the organ, the donation team, all the way up to the point of an organ that's being retrieved, going into the transport box and being taken to the recipient center where we'll be transplanted.
Uh, so managing, overseeing the whole, that process is, I, I'll roll in a nutshell.
I'll see each component on that journey.
I mean, I could talk for hours about each bit.
Three, and there's a very diverse role and that has a lot of interesting challenges.
And I think it's the diversity of the role that I like a lot because there's a, that I cater call, I was still in the intensive care unit and liaison with the medical team, with the nursing team and advising me about organ donations specifically.
And then there's a huge platform, which is family orientated end of life.
And a bereavement care in that immediate acute phases of the an intensive care mission as well as a lot of, as you can probably imagine, but that's probably present in most nursing or medical roles well, these days.
So that sounds fascinating, and you've said how huge it is, but you started off by giving it as quite structured.
So this is the point of when it is from and to, so what I'm.
Wondering is if you can sort of share a bit more, Harry, to anybody listening you do, and you've talked about that burnout and seeing people die.
How does that feel? Let's start off by thinking about that family and that conversation.
Can you tell us a bit more about how you manage that and how that looks or feels? And I know that every situation is going to be different, but of course to anybody from outside, that's quite a daunting thought and I'm sure it probably was to you the first time.
That's an interesting one Then.
I mean talking to families or having involvement with families who are going through some of the worst days of their lives.
It was not you when I started this job, obviously intensive care, firstly the major trauma center of course being the very stubborn news kind of news to them, you know, acute grief, and so that wasn't necessarily new, but the topic around which we were talking to.
The families definitely was, and as part of training specialist nurse role, it's really, it's very thorough.
It's very lengthy.
It's six months to be signed up fully.
Um, because you have to do every part of the process and you have to be signed up.
There's LY to do that independently, and we do a lot of load working.
Okay.
And a huge portion of that is communication training, communication techniques supposed to be around.
The topic of all the donation.
You know how to break the subject when the right time to break the subject, how to and engage is in the family ready to move on to that topic.
And it's definitely, I think that you get better with experience, but that was probably the hardest thing.
When should you broach the topic? When's the right time held to broach in the topic of optimization amongst, and then this is two.
That sounds really incredibly hard, Harry, how you manage those conversations.
I think as you say, you've learned that over time you get better at it.
And I don't want to say it becomes easier, but of course you know the structure, you know the type of things that are going to come up.
But what might make that easier? What needs to happen? What would be your, your message to people or what do you think we need to do? I think in terms of the broad picture.
And this is my personal opinion, but I think probably is shared by a lot, I think it's shared by a lot of colleagues, is that we need to normalize the topic on aiming death, talking about death, and you know, what it might look like, what our thoughts of feelings are about it, and also importantly, what we want when that happens.
And I guess particularly related to my goal is one of those things is.
Talking about organation and making it a normal part of end care, just like you would refer to Palliated care team.
And just like you refer to physio and do that, the nice guidelines stay there.
Organ donation should be a normal part of end of life care considered just, just the same as any other specialty.
And put that big picture in getting people to talk about that.
Over the dinner team, for example, the topic people most talk do.
Yeah.
That family time we see people talk to about it.
Yeah.
Because the people you know there, there's a big push for people to register in a decision on, they all been don to register, whether that's to opt in or opt out, because having that decision when we approach families really gives weight to the conversation.
So if I can stage a family, your loved one had made this decision.
To donate.
I mean, they're much more likely to want to support that wish and honor that decision.
And anecdotally, I think that the most difficult kind of approach to families is when topic and conversation have never been talked about.
So a lot of the kind of rhetoric here will be, we've never talked about it.
I dunno what they would want.
So I'm gonna stay there just to be safe because.
I wouldn't want to do something that they didn't want essentially.
And that really, that flips the other way around when you meet family and say, yeah, we talked about this loads of times actually what they would've wanted.
And it really makes that process, particularly in that acute grieving process, a lot easier.
In term means.
It's something you've discussed in the past.
You have to go through the mental processing and you have the emotion.
Yeah, emotional processing, um, which is obviously very different when you're breathing.
So I take big messages, talk to people wherever you can, whenever, and can make your wishes known so that it never forbid you, the scheme minority of people who are, that may already your decisions on what you wish them.
That's an interesting one Then.
I mean talking to families or having involvement with families who are going through some of the worst days of their lives.
It was not you when I started this job, obviously intensive care, firstly the major trauma center of course being the very stubborn news kind of news to them, you know, acute grief, and so that wasn't necessarily new, but the topic around which we were talking to.
The families definitely was, and as part of training specialist nurse role, it's really, it's very thorough.
It's very lengthy.
It's six months to be signed up fully.
Um, because you have to do every part of the process and you have to be signed up.
There's LY to do that independently, and we do a lot of load working.
Okay.
And a huge portion of that is communication training, communication techniques supposed to be around.
The topic of all the donation.
You know how to break the subject when the right time to break the subject, how to and engage is in the family ready to move on to that topic.
And it's definitely, I think that you get better with experience, but that was probably the hardest thing.
When should you broach the topic? When's the right time held to broach in the topic of optimization amongst, and then this is two.
That sounds really incredibly hard, Harry, how you manage those conversations.
I think as you say, you've learned that over time you get better at it.
And I don't want to say it becomes easier, but of course you know the structure, you know the type of things that are going to come up.
But what might make that easier? What needs to happen? What would be your, your message to people or what do you think we need to do? I think in terms of the broad picture.
And this is my personal opinion, but I think probably is shared by a lot, I think it's shared by a lot of colleagues, is that we need to normalize the topic on aiming death, talking about death, and you know, what it might look like, what our thoughts of feelings are about it, and also importantly, what we want when that happens.
And I guess particularly related to my goal is one of those things is.
Talking about organation and making it a normal part of end care, just like you would refer to Palliated care team.
And just like you refer to physio and do that, the nice guidelines stay there.
Organ donation should be a normal part of end of life care considered just, just the same as any other specialty.
And put that big picture in getting people to talk about that.
Over the dinner team, for example, the topic people most talk do.
Yeah.
That family time we see people talk to about it.
Yeah.
Because the people you know there, there's a big push for people to register in a decision on, they all been don to register, whether that's to opt in or opt out, because having that decision when we approach families really gives weight to the conversation.
So if I can stage a family, your loved one had made this decision.
To donate.
I mean, they're much more likely to want to support that wish and honor that decision.
And anecdotally, I think that the most difficult kind of approach to families is when topic and conversation have never been talked about.
So a lot of the kind of rhetoric here will be, we've never talked about it.
I dunno what they would want.
So I'm gonna stay there just to be safe because.
I wouldn't want to do something that they didn't want essentially.
And that really, that flips the other way around when you meet family and say, yeah, we talked about this loads of times actually what they would've wanted.
And it really makes that process, particularly in that acute grieving process, a lot easier.
In term means.
It's something you've discussed in the past.
You have to go through the mental processing and you have the emotion.
Yeah, emotional processing, um, which is obviously very different when you're breathing.
So I take big messages, talk to people wherever you can, whenever, and can make your wishes known so that it never forbid you, the scheme minority of people who are, that may already your decisions on what you wish them.
So, and it sounds like really what you're drawing on there is quite a lot of leadership skills in this role.
Quite a lot of education skills and that really networking to get to know people.
As you say, almost seeing people, people's friends, they feel quite comfortable and, and know who you are.
So quite a challenge to the role beyond the bit that you've spoken about at the beginning, there's quite a lot more to it.
And I think that's probably what I like is that it's so multifaceted and it's always starting to get stuck, get the teeth stuck into stay.
In terms of employer, NHS lung transplant are really fantastic and really push you to, you know, take on the project where learning personal development, so it's, it's APR that you can really make your own.
Um, to a certain degree.
I think that's probably why I enjoy it and hate it so much.
Yeah.
And so we've talked about what might make some of those conversations or make this easier, and we've talked about the bit of sort of people in their, you know, families talking at home.
We've talked about the staff that are the frontline that might refer on to you.
Is there anything else that you think to yourself? Do you know if, if only or maybe we should or could you know that, is there any other thoughts that you have? Harry, I.
Yes.
I think probably, I dunno what the kind of strategic level Yeah.
Potentially is the, is the right term.
I think one of the ways to get people talking is to, we need to have the right messaging coming out from the very top with, and a good example of this would be, I, I dunno if you're aware, in 2020 the opt out legislation came in.
Which is something Wales have had for few years.
And because it was in the middle of Covid, obviously all the messaging and all the, the attention was on Covid, so it kind of got swept under the rug a bit.
And you know, it's a topic of conversation.
I have a lot with, you know, friends and just people I meet and that comes up when I say what I do and say, well, you, and you're aware of the, you know, the law change few years ago and it is quite splitting.
People just don't know this.
And I think that's because there hasn't been that messaging from a really high level.
I think that really does affect what people talk about on a day to day basis.
So for me, it's all very well, me and my colleagues story around talking to everyone you meet about holding donation.
There's only so many people you can reach in.
So I think there does need to be a lot, what's the word? High level.
Yes.
Strategic kind of input in trying to spread the message about donation and raise awareness.
Even people just making whether that decision is to opt out, still making them aware of it is, is what we're missing.
Yeah.
But that, that comes down, I think, to money the same as anything in the NHS do we have the money to invest? In that, I'm guessing probably the answer is no to a certain degree, but that's where a bug web pen came, so, so it's almost like a wishlist, really.
But actually the more that people talk about it, and hopefully it might help to push it up there because.
People like yourself going round and talking, you know, that's an ad hoc situation and we need this to be more than ad hoc.
It needs to be coordinated, is what you're saying.
And maybe that could be coordinated and you know what, what does that cost, need to be? I don't know.
You know, national campaigns could cost, but there might be something about trying to just get that through some other way.
So I can't think of anything at the moment, but maybe, yeah.
We have shameless plug Organ Donation Week, which is in every September, and you'll see a lot of kind of buildings around I live in and a lot of buildings.
And we as a team, trying do a lot of community engagement, a lot of engagement with the hospital staff and visitors.
We have stems where we talk to people about donation, encourage them to register a decision, whether that's in or out.
And the huge about that is mid busting people have sort weird and wonderful views on what donation actually is, how it happened, particularly when you compare it to other country.
So mid busting also a huge part.
But yeah, so organization week can be our, our biggest sweep in terms of campaigning and trying to get the word out.
So.
I was gonna ask you something else, but now you've got me fascinated about these myths.
Okay.
So maybe not all of them, but just, just give a, an example of the type of myths that there are out there.
I think probably one that comes, the thing, the conversation with fair amount is about is there ever any money involved Okay.
Receiving organs and be able that in, in the uk it, it's very highly radiated by the human tissue authority.
The answer is no.
Incredible quality.
The waiting lists are based on needs.
The in needs be as first person legible.
Yes.
And obviously as long as your, you match tissue types and blood bricks and so there's definitely no money involved and organization is completely altruistic in the uk so.
We do have conversations with families, say, well, yes you can take their own visit, your pay due, and things like that.
Which not how it works.
So it's very altruistic and it has to be, you know, a gift essentially.
And obviously you hear a lot of stories from different countries where that's definitely not so that it's quite a big, kind, a myth busting MIT that we bus.
Okay.
Thank you and gives us a bit of an idea that there's probably quite a few things that need to be talked about.
So maybe that conversation at home needs a little bit more information around it so that people are aware of some of those things to start with.
So just gonna ask, I don't really know, know whether this is something that you can answer, but you talked about that you really enjoy the job, you, the fact that it's quite strategic.
You are linking in with people, you have autonomy to go off and work in a way that that works for you.
But I'm just wondering if there's another.
A sort of a story that you can share, and I know obviously you can't talk about people by names or anything that, that gives us sort of an example.
And I know I also realize that you are at one end of the story and maybe you don't see the other end, but something to give people a sort of bit of an idea of, of the difference that this makes to people and, and how, how it might help.
Yeah.
I think one thing that would say when we do kind of teaching sessions.
If you start by talking about the benefits of donation and organ transplant is well, often the only treatment for end stage organ failure.
You know, there is no other option they, the other option is, is doubling.
Okay.
And I don't think you get any bigger than that really, or any more serious.
And you are right that we don't have much to do with the kind of recipient side at all, but something that really drives home the goods that all the donation dial in.
We would often, the recipients will sometimes write letters to the donut families.
Oh, that's nice.
And we sometimes we, when we're aware of them, get to read them and you know, reading that is we often a tear jerker a lot.
The ones that we are parents of children who received, received organs and.
They will destroy how their life has been turned around completely in the space of weak.
You know, someone who is completely reliant on being in the hospital on a machine 24 7 is now living their, living their life as a normal all five year.
So all the way from children all up to people, much older.
Someone who would be having end stage renal bay would be having dialysis three times a week.
So having to come into hospital went now.
Three times a week and you can't mix any session.
You can't go on a holiday and they would have a kidney transplant and suddenly be able to do little thing that they used to do and haven't done for a long time.
And reading those kind of letters and hearing those stories really how, and even donation in because there wouldn't be recipients, there wouldn't be transplants without organ donors and as good meat as the situation is.
People could only be donors because they often died in quite tragic circumstances.
I think trying to think that something so amazing can come of something quite terrible, I think is the, is the thing that personally gets me through in these terrible stories.
And Reed and family, they have to look, look at the big picture and.
Remind yourself from the good, that good that it does.
So yeah, that would probably be, that would probably be how I would kind of summarize how it feels.
Thank you.
And that's massive, isn't it? That that difference that it's making at the end and I, you know, seeing those letters, that must be something that PE for people like you and your team is just incredible to see those and to see the impact and accepting that your part.
A journey between two people and two families really to make that difference.
Yeah, and what a wonderful thing for the families that receive the letter as well to know that their loved one has gone on to do something like that.
They seems kind of just conjecture in a way, I suppose, but I imagine that if something too that terrible happens to a loved one of mine, I think I would feel quite good closure thinking.
I'd also birth.
They do the politic that's That's come out.
They come out of it.
And to me that would get closure, I think.
And so, and those say, people say that they could live on in some way, I think that's quite meaningful.
Yes.
Yeah.
And it definitely sounds like meaningful work, which was.
Was why when you spoke? I think it's probably quite a different episode to some of my podcasts, but actually when you spoke to me, as I said before, it really sort of drove home exactly what you were doing and and how important this is and how much passion that you have behind it, which, you know, I know this is gonna go out as a podcast and an audio recording, but as you're talking I can really see that passion and drive Harry.
So is there any last message that you want to give? I know you've given those messages before, which is really just talk about it.
How we can break those myths.
Is there any sort of last message that you want to give other than those, or just to reiterate those maybe? I think probably reiterating those is the, is the biggest message.
I think there's a wealth and equation that you don't, quite an internet incredible thing.
There's load of resources, you know, created by an HS bone transplant.
You know, you don't have to be a clinician to find out.
Everyone can just Google, go on the HS bone transplant.
Point more information so that you can make an important decision.
Let's bring in inform once you made a decision important to register on the younger day register.
Again, very need to find currently the most important.
Take home messages, talk to you, loved ones friends, so everyone there is what their decision is, whether it obtain it, doesn't matter.
Just normalize that discussion.
Thank you, Harry.
It's been fascinating.
Been really interesting to listen and hear more, so thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate that.
Bye bye.
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