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Strictly Come Hamster - The Christmas Specials · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:32
Welcome to Strictly Come Hamsters, the Doctor Who panel
0:37
show debate comedy Bitch Fest. My name is Joe Ford and I am one
0:45
of your hosts. Today I'm going to hand you over
0:47
now to my Co host, Mr. Rob Brown, the man who has
0:51
discovered that it's almost impossible to schedule me, let
0:55
alone the guests and and has taken up the position as my new
0:59
podcast wife. Go on Rod, over to you.
1:02
Thank you, Joe. And yes, organising you is far
1:05
more difficult than organising any guests, I have to say.
1:09
So welcome everybody and welcome to all the listeners and the
1:12
viewers on that day YouTube. As Joe has rightly said, this is
1:17
the very first strictly come hamster which is now the Doctor
1:20
Who Championship Podcast. And every two weeks Joe and I
1:23
are going to be sashing our way across the toy makers dancing
1:27
floor accompanied by two very special guests.
1:30
And together we're going to be reviewing, ranking,
1:33
congratulating and possibly condemning range of stories from
1:37
across 60 years in order to decide which is going to be
1:40
picking up the location glitter ball and which is going to get
1:43
sent home to Peas Pottage. Winners from each show will be
1:47
progressing to the next round, but that's all for the future.
1:50
So for today let's focus on our first episode and introduce
1:55
today's dancing hamsters. Gentlemen, would you like to
1:58
introduce yourselves? Who first first?
2:03
I hello. I'm.
2:05
I'm the less special of the two special guests.
2:09
Oh thank thank you. I fished for compliments and I
2:12
found them straight away. Wonderful.
2:14
Merry Merry Christmas, Joe. I I'm I I'm I'm Michael Mills
2:19
and I'm absolutely delighted to be here.
2:20
Thank you for having me. You're most welcome.
2:23
We've got someone else here as well, I think.
2:26
Yes, hello, my name is Toby Haydock, the Michael sheared of
2:31
a hamster with a blanket knife. If I'm asked, I will do it.
2:37
It's nice to be here on Christmas Day, live on Christmas
2:41
Day and here I'm in my Christmas clothes, ready to get festive
2:48
with Doctor Who. Thanks for having me, and a
2:50
Merry Christmas to all of you at home.
2:53
Oh, someone has to say that later.
2:54
Now. I can't believe I'm the one that
2:56
insisted that everybody wear festive clothing.
2:58
And then I came in a Dimensions in Time T-shirt.
3:01
So well done to everybody else. Well, I should think watching
3:06
Dimensions in Time, you probably think all your Christmases have
3:08
come at once. It's.
3:09
The ultimate Doctor Who Palestine isn't.
3:13
It Oh no it isn't. It's behind you.
3:17
OK. So thank you everybody and thank
3:19
you again so much for joining us on our first episode.
3:22
So in future episodes we're going to be covering stories
3:25
from individual seasons or series, but because we're
3:29
launching Strictly Come Home to Stay on Christmas Day, we
3:32
thought why not break the format right away from the start?
3:35
So today we're going to look at 8 Christmas specials instead
3:39
from the Russell T Davis era and Steven Moffat.
3:42
So we are going to be discussing The Runaway Bride, Voyage of the
3:46
Damned and the next Doctor with David Tennant, Matt Smith's
3:49
Christmas Carol and the Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe and
3:52
Peter Capaldi's Last Christmas, The Husbands of Riversong and
3:56
The Return of Doctor Mysterio. But before we get into these
3:59
stories individually, we would really welcome the panel's views
4:04
on Christmas specials as a whole.
4:06
And we want to ask you, do you think Doctor Who works on
4:09
Christmas Day? And how far does it have to bend
4:11
its own rules in order to fit into the Christmas schedules?
4:15
Gentlemen, your thoughts? Let's go over to Toby first.
4:21
Well I mean I remember seeing, I mean it was a mixture of joy and
4:26
fury because I just pressed stopped stop on my video
4:29
recorder and and then it did a then it did a trail, it did a
4:35
trailer for what we just missed didn't it?
4:36
And then said or or the whole season, it did a recap of the
4:39
whole season eclipse and then said doctor will return at
4:41
Christmas or something like that.
4:43
And yeah, but I just pressed stop so I didn't.
4:45
So I was it's sad that I but but of course the excitement that
4:50
because I was recording those episodes on VHS, Christopher
4:52
Eccleston I recorded on VHSI was on the I was on the the cutting.
4:56
Edge of technology. Crossover between the old and
5:01
new. That was 2005 VHS.
5:04
Well, I've never been a man of the moment.
5:08
Good job it wasn't Laserdisc. Absolutely.
5:11
I mean I'm watching you now through an Etch A Sketch and and
5:19
but there was that. I can't remember quite but it
5:20
did say didn't it Doctor will return in the Christmas Invasion
5:24
and I think that was the first hint we'd got that.
5:26
One this first season has been really successful.
5:31
And two oh, there's going to be a Christmas special.
5:33
Did did I have. I dreamt that, but certainly I
5:35
remember when there was there was a moment hearing that Doctor
5:39
Who was going to come back at Christmas, whenever that was,
5:42
was that, oh, this, this has been a successful return.
5:45
They're putting it, they're they're planting it on Christmas
5:48
Day. It's only been on Christmas Day
5:50
by an accident of scheduling before, really.
5:53
And that was the feast of Stephen.
5:55
And nobody really talks about that because delightful
5:58
anomalies though it has within it.
5:59
It's also as an experience, a whole lot of noise and a
6:04
atypical, shall we say, of the show and perhaps doesn't go as
6:08
far into the nonsense. You know, it should have either
6:10
been further into the nonsense or or or tried to be just a bit
6:14
more like an exciting episode. So we've never seen anything
6:16
like up until, you know, this, this iteration of the show, we
6:21
not really had a Doctor Christmas special and now of
6:24
course we can't move for them, can I?
6:26
Interject for a second, yeah. Because this, you know, with
6:30
there's a bit of debate going on here.
6:31
I would. I would argue against that.
6:33
Just to say that the Unquiet did feels like a Christmas special
6:37
to me way before the The Christmas Invasion.
6:40
Well, I mean, that just goes to show how they might not have
6:43
anticipated. Because watching the Unquiet
6:46
Dead now is a bit like it's a bit like die Hard, isn't it?
6:49
You sort of go. It's the Unquiet Dead a
6:50
Christmas. Episode or not?
6:53
Because actually you would say now if you were to Commission
6:56
Doctor Who as a 13 episode series with a Christmas special,
6:59
you go don't do the Unquiet Dead as #3, do the Unquiet Dead as a
7:05
as a Christmas special. And have a different celebrity
7:09
historical for for episode 3. Because The Unquiet Dead is a
7:12
beautiful Christmas tale of Christmas Carol redemption.
7:16
As as the later very literal Doctor Who version of The
7:20
Christmas Carol becomes that without without it being
7:23
Dickens. But I I I think it's a great
7:27
it's really hard, isn't it? Because they have to have an eye
7:30
on my annoying family who will watch it with me.
7:34
Who? Who?
7:35
Who want some sort of Christmas Day entertainment that is big
7:39
and bold and colourful. But they'll also want to please
7:43
Doctor Who fans who've tuned in for an episode of Doctor Who
7:46
that has a has to have an extra dimension because it's Christmas
7:50
and. And so I always think you feel
7:52
slightly flat after Christmas because I think you build it up
7:55
as something, this is Christmas and Christmas, build it up as
7:59
something in your head, and then you go, oh, is that it?
8:03
And of course that's it, because part of the whole thing about
8:05
Christmas is actually the build up.
8:07
It's not the execution because it's just a day like any other
8:10
day, with a few things that you add to it.
8:13
So I think it's hard to be a Christmas special, but I love
8:16
the fact that they exist. I love the fact that they
8:19
attempt to siphon because Doctor Who is a bit like Christmas.
8:22
It reminds us of our childhoods. It has a whole hefty wedge of
8:28
nostalgia that goes with it. It's got its own special
8:30
feeling. It's a it's a group enterprise
8:34
in terms of your appreciation of it.
8:35
So there's a lot that connects Doctor Who and Christmas.
8:38
So there's a lot of pressure on it.
8:40
And I and I think many things that we find fault with with the
8:43
Christmas episodes aren't necessarily their fault.
8:45
But I'm glad they're there and I'm glad that the show chooses
8:49
to do it. And I think it's important now
8:50
that Doctor Who is part of the Christmas schedule, because that
8:53
reinforces it as part of our cultural heritage and our our
8:57
national identity and all of the other things that makes Doctor
9:00
Who special. I don't want to follow that.
9:05
I was going to say. Very erudite summary, Yeah,
9:08
we're all stunned into silence. Has anybody else got anything
9:11
else to add? It's not an awful lot to add to
9:13
that. It's.
9:14
A lot of pants in it, really. I mean, no, I mean I I Toby,
9:20
you're absolutely right. To the extent that that point
9:22
you made about them being caught out by its success and that
9:24
Christmas special on the DVD commentary for the Christopher
9:28
Eccleston series, Russell T Davis Season, says on the
9:31
Unquiet. Ted oh, I hope we get a
9:32
Christmas repeat on this, which just sort of shows you how sort
9:35
of ridiculously small it was, wasn't it?
9:38
You know, the small. You know what I mean?
9:40
We couldn't have dreamed of these wonders that we now get
9:44
you Doctor Who sometimes once a year.
9:46
I mean, it's incredible. They were, you know, planning,
9:49
weren't they, to possibly shunt it off onto a Sunday night in a
9:53
sort of graveyard slot, weren't they?
9:54
If it wasn't successful. So I don't think they ever
9:57
anticipated it. The Bone Kickers protocol.
10:00
Yeah. Surely not as bad as that.
10:03
No, I think the problem with this Christmas specials is, is
10:06
that they've got the word special in them.
10:08
And every time Doctor Who fans hear the word special, they feel
10:12
as if it's something that is going to be extraordinarily
10:14
better than your average Doctor Who episode.
10:17
And it happened again with the specials as David Tennant bowed
10:21
out. And I've seen it a little bit
10:23
less so because people are so excited at the moment, but a
10:26
little bit with Wild Blue Yonder, which has just been
10:29
released the second you put that word.
10:31
On People Joe a month ago. Oh, yeah.
10:33
Sorry. Christmas Day, Oopsie,
10:35
obviously. Tell me what I meant.
10:36
But you said you put that word in.
10:37
People just expect the world and what they get is a perfectly
10:41
serviceable Doctor Who story at Christmas.
10:44
Yeah, yeah, well, that's, yeah. And you can't blame something
10:49
for the expectation that we throw upon it.
10:52
Special, special as we know now means, you know, not part of a
10:56
season, but because it has connotations, because the word
10:59
specials, you know, mean really means, you know, lovely and
11:03
marvellous and all of that. I have seen it with wildly young
11:06
people going, well how can it be a special?
11:08
But it's only got 2 characters in it.
11:12
It was very special, that episode, yeah.
11:15
It's like, it's like when they put on a special bus service.
11:18
That's really what it is, isn't it?
11:20
There are Doctor Who fans hanging about on the strands
11:22
going, Is Carolyn Ford going to be on it?
11:25
Yeah. William Hartnell is the
11:29
conductor, a different incarnation of the Doctor we
11:31
will never know. The only thing I'd really add is
11:34
I think that is a really good jumping on point for non vans
11:38
because that's the point of the year where more people are going
11:41
to be watching. So that's the point where you
11:43
can sort of hopefully capture people for the next season?
11:49
Yeah. And I would argue actually it
11:50
should be of service to those people which is why you know
11:54
Voyage of the Damage was so successful.
11:57
You throw, you put Kylie Minogue in it.
11:59
You you basically make The Poseidon Adventure, which is a
12:02
film I remember always being on around the Christmas period was
12:05
when I was growing up those sorts of disaster movies were on
12:08
at Christmas all of the time. You know things that you watch
12:10
where you wondered who was going to die first.
12:12
That was that was basically it. You have those things so and and
12:16
it's one that you you go into and you can enjoy on it own
12:21
terms it's quite crash, bang, wallop and and then you could
12:27
come out of it but it might just plan to see for people to go Oh
12:30
yeah I'll watch that when it comes back on.
12:32
And look at the ratings that next year in Season 4, you know
12:35
they did take a leap. Although you have just listed my
12:39
three reasons for voice, I was going to say.
12:40
Yeah, mine as well. I've got a rethink now so.
12:45
I suppose on that note, shall we dive into round one?
12:49
Let's do it. So.
12:51
Everyone looks scared. What do you?
12:52
Both. I know.
12:53
They suddenly look really terrified, don't they?
12:55
So it's not it's not as complicated as it sounds.
12:58
So let's get into round one. So this is the first knockout
13:01
stage. So because we're covering 8
13:03
stories and there's four of us, we're each, over the period of
13:07
round one, going to pick two stories each and and in time
13:10
honoured hamster tradition, you're going to be giving us
13:13
three reasons. Either why you want to recommend
13:16
it or why you want to send it packing home and sent home out
13:20
of the competition. And your job is to persuade and
13:23
cajole the rest of the panel to agree with your views.
13:27
So if the majority are won over by your views whether to keep it
13:30
or in it, then the outcomes obvious.
13:33
But there may be an argument because the panel panel may
13:36
disagree with what you're suggesting and we'll see what
13:39
happens when we get to that point.
13:42
But I guess we need to decide who's going to kick us off in
13:44
the conversation. So I have a random generator
13:48
which had a lovely Christmas noise which Joe told me earlier
13:53
we can't hear, so I'm just. Going to.
13:56
I know. So disappointing after all this.
13:58
Work, I've decided instead I will sing Marie Gold's Christmas
14:01
songs while it's going round to the delight of all concerned.
14:04
No. Thank goodness I've limited it
14:05
only to 5 seconds. We'll sort it out in post.
14:09
So here we go, Joe, get ready to sing.
14:12
I've got to say 321 once I found a stowaway of.
14:16
Underwater spinning. Boat Christmas Day.
14:20
And it is Toby. This is Christmas though, right?
14:26
This is. We've got the box set out.
14:28
Rod's. Rod's.
14:29
Read all the rules. I said.
14:31
OK, sorry. I'm now I'll be angry, if
14:33
anyone. Goes off all the relatives are
14:35
going. How do you play it?
14:37
I'm the little dog. I'm the little dog, Rob.
14:39
I was having, I was having to find a list of the stories that
14:41
Joe that Joe sent me, rather optimistically as somebody that
14:45
could. Probably quote every single
14:47
episode of Classic Who in you know, in Order and all the
14:51
dialogue and the cast. Some of these I'm not quite as
14:55
familiar with, SO. Do you have a list?
14:57
Because I can read it off for you now.
14:58
No, I've got it here. So am I choosing a story
15:00
basically? Choose a story, Toby, and give
15:02
us three reasons why you think it should stay in this
15:05
competition, or why you think we should reject it.
15:08
I am going to choose the next Doctor because I think it gets a
15:15
bad it gets a bad press and I don't think it deserves 1.
15:18
So I will give you the three reasons why.
15:21
One what an excellent wheeze. The idea that we have another
15:26
Doctor Who and and it's told brilliantly by Russell T
15:30
Davidson that that it's clear fairly early on because he's got
15:33
a Sonic screwdriver that's actually a chisel that this
15:36
isn't Doctor Who but it's got a it's got a headline grabbing
15:40
concept that is who's going to be the next doctor And all the
15:42
mums in the school playground were going to me and going I've
15:45
heard who the news Doctor Who is.
15:47
I think it's going to be David Morrissey.
15:48
You're going you've you've really heard that have you.
15:51
Because with pictures of him in the paper, you're signing up to
15:54
me and telling me you think that that's going to be news to me,
15:58
do you? But you know.
16:00
That is a strange affliction, isn't it?
16:01
Because suddenly you when it's popular, you become the one
16:04
expert that everybody knows on Doctor Who.
16:06
They think you've got insider knowledge.
16:08
But also then come and tell you they're inside which is what
16:12
they've read in the sun and you have to go.
16:15
I I don't think it is David Doris is the new Doctor Who I I
16:19
think that's going to be a wheeze.
16:21
You know that's it But they played that out very well and
16:23
and even though I. But you know my common sense
16:26
told me no no he's he's to get that that's the whole the reason
16:28
they've called it the next Doctor is because it's a it's a
16:31
tease and there's going to be a twist and but David Morrissey
16:34
played along and said well I can't say whether I'm going you
16:36
know of course they were going to do that.
16:37
I thought that was a brilliant ways because not only did it
16:39
work on the screen it worked off screen.
16:41
It got people talking about Doctor Who.
16:43
It got people also invested in the mythology of the being
16:46
another Doctor and the next Doctor and they kept doing that
16:48
with tenants sort of going oh is he is he going.
16:51
Oh look he's regenerating. Before you thought you know all
16:53
of that, they they played, played with that and made it
16:55
headline grabbing. And I think that's a great
16:58
Russell T Davis is very good at playing, playing the programme
17:01
through the press in that way to again grab the important people,
17:04
which is not us, which is the people out there getting
17:07
everybody talking about it. And we can never underestimate
17:11
the skill required to do that, to not over saturate it, but to
17:14
just tease people and cheat people up.
17:16
And I think that whole premise is genius for that.
17:19
I think it's a lovely chocolate boxy Christmas vibe.
17:23
You know it is the Christmas of it is a Christmas rendered in
17:28
the colours of a biscuit tin, you know with with the period
17:31
setting that it has on the snow and all those those outfits.
17:34
And of course Doctor Who works very well when it transplants
17:36
science fiction into history. But even picture book history is
17:40
even better because that has a nostalgic comfort which you want
17:44
at Christmas time. And then it is sort of it has
17:46
the judder of bit of having you know silver Cybermen force their
17:50
way into that and and sully that picture with sci-fi dissonance.
17:55
And I would add to that I think it has a beautiful and Doctor
17:59
Who often I think under under cells or under uses it's female
18:05
protagonists or or has them be there for you know just to go oh
18:10
look have we got a girl doing this.
18:12
Whereas actually it's villain. You know there's a there's a
18:16
very feminine thrust through Dervla Cohen's character and the
18:20
fact that she's you know the the inference being there that she's
18:24
had to you know do things that only women can do in a man's
18:29
world in order to prosper and and so she you you there's a bit
18:33
of sympathy for her running through there and it's also it
18:37
it kind of it feeds through the subtext as well.
18:40
So they're they're, they're my three that the the wheeze, the
18:44
the the, the picture box setting and the added dimension that the
18:48
female villain has, who's also beautifully, brilliantly played
18:51
and looks amazing in that red dress.
18:53
Fantastic. Thank you Toby.
18:55
So Michael, Joe do we agree with as Toby won us over, are we
19:01
going to keep the next Doctor in for the time being?
19:05
Michael. You make a convincing case but
19:09
Oh my. But you say there's a lot of
19:12
there's a lot of bad rap for the next Doctor.
19:14
And I'm, I'm happy to be the voice of the people on this one.
19:17
And I think my problem with the next Doctor is that it's it's it
19:20
is a brilliant wheeze and it's fantastic to have David
19:22
Morrissey in there. And I agree with you on to urban
19:23
Kerbin, but that works for about 2/3 of its running length.
19:28
And then it finally admits that he's not the Doctor any, that he
19:32
isn't the Doctor and he never was the Doctor.
19:33
At which point, if you're not the Doctor, it's not very
19:37
interesting, is it? And so Jackson Lake, there's
19:39
nothing from it to the point where it's the Doctor Who saves
19:42
his son. If that.
19:43
If that story is going to do one thing, if there's a if there's a
19:45
if there's an emotional resolution, it's that Jackson
19:47
Lake becomes the braver and better man that he could be
19:50
because of, because of everything that he has done to
19:53
be able to do. And it was in him.
19:54
It wasn't just the Doctor, but he said it's a script that goes
19:57
Nah, Nah, it's the Doctor Who's safe today, isn't it?
19:58
And it's just such a weirdly dull beat to end it on.
20:03
Yeah, you make a good point, Michael.
20:05
That's that's a very valid point.
20:07
However, I think I would sway to what Toby said earlier, that it
20:12
is about the wheeze. I think it does get a lot of bad
20:15
rap because people hang on to the fact that within 10 minutes
20:19
we know David Morrissey probably isn't the Doctor because of the
20:23
the screwdriver gag. And actually, wouldn't our
20:27
doctor look a little bit silly if he fell for that for the
20:30
entire duration of the plot? He's kind of got a tweak to that
20:34
early and he does tweak to it early.
20:36
And we as an audience learn what about 20 minutes in, I think we
20:39
got the full scene in the barn where we we come to discover
20:42
that Jackson Lake is not the Doctor.
20:44
Personally, I haven't got a problem with that.
20:46
I like the way it plays out. I agree with your point.
20:49
I think it's very fair, though. There should.
20:51
Javed Morrissey's character should have a little bit more
20:53
agency in that final scene. But that's aside.
20:57
I'm a great lover of the next Doctor and certainly rewatching
21:00
it for this again just reinforced how much I enjoyed it
21:04
for a lot of the reasons that Toby said Derwick Irwin in
21:07
particular. I mean she plays she is the Lady
21:10
Paine Fort of of the new series. She's as camp as you can get.
21:16
Toby. I love the way that you said she
21:17
was quite subtle with the way that she describes her other
21:23
occupation, shall we say. However, it's done with such
21:26
when she says, oh, you know, the Cybermen will rise.
21:29
How very like a man. I mean, she couldn't be more
21:32
campus. She says that.
21:33
She rolls her eyes. And it's absolutely delicious
21:36
and wonderful. When that enormous, bloody great
21:38
Cyberman robot comes out with her in his stomach, well, I
21:42
don't think Doctor Who's ever been more camp and I will
21:44
include Tom and the Ronnie in there.
21:47
So if H Amara couldn't get away with lines like you, cheeky boy
21:51
like, oh, she could. I've I've, I've read, Sorry,
21:56
sorry for interrupt. I've read Damaged Goods for
21:59
another episode of this excellent podcast very recently,
22:01
and I'll tell you what Middle-aged woman in a Mecca
22:04
suit is a surprisingly recurrent theme in the writing of Russell
22:07
T Davis. What's happened in this past
22:11
that we need to know about? I'm going to vote for it to stay
22:14
in, if for no other reason than David Morrissey gives one of my
22:18
favourite lines of of current Doctor Who, which is I shall
22:21
affect an entrance in the rear which he deserves an award for
22:26
that role for that line and said it with a straight face.
22:30
So Michael, are you voting this one out?
22:33
Yeah, for the sake of the format.
22:35
That means I'm the swing vote. I'm the swing vote I was waiting
22:38
for this all day to be. The Decider you're the you're
22:41
you're Dame, Shirley, Joey all. Right.
22:43
You're the floater, Joe. We're in the.
22:45
Unfortunate position that two of Toby's reasons were my reasons
22:48
not to put this through to the next round.
22:50
Unfortunately, one of them was I didn't really like the picture
22:54
postcard Dickensian snowy Christmas that was depicted.
23:00
I don't know. It just felt too obvious when
23:03
given what comes later is quite subtle.
23:05
But at the time I remember just going, are we doing this?
23:08
Are we doing the doctor walking around the market?
23:10
There's Carol singing going on? I don't know.
23:12
And I know it's Christmas and I know I should chill out a bit,
23:15
but yeah, sorry, that is what my one Christmas jumper says.
23:18
So here we go. And when it comes to female
23:22
protagonists, I really like Rosita and she gets nothing to
23:27
do in the story. She barely does anything.
23:30
And so while I think one woman gets an incredible role and is
23:34
striking, the other is kind of practically ignored.
23:37
And I I would like to have seen the two women come up against
23:40
each other a bit more. I think that might have been
23:42
quite an interesting dynamic. So I'm going to vote it out on
23:46
the phrase. I'm not a massive fan.
23:49
Oh my goodness. So a giant falls at the very
23:52
first hurdle. The next doctor is out.
23:56
Crikey. Sorry, sorry.
23:57
Great. I froze in love that.
23:59
Oh, it's OK, I I did. I did text different.
24:02
I remember coining a phrase at the end of the of when it was
24:06
on. I think my brother had said, you
24:08
know, because my brother always sends me a message going, well,
24:10
that was rubbish and and I remember saying that at the time
24:14
that I'd really enjoyed it, but I did concur with what he'd
24:16
said. I can't remember what he said.
24:18
That the big cyber nonsense machine which I was, the phrase
24:21
I was quite proud of at the end was was perhaps a festive step
24:25
too far. It was a little bit.
24:28
It does look lovely. Though oh, it's oh, it's it's
24:30
jolly. I like it.
24:31
But I. Was a bit bored and then that
24:32
great robot came out and suddenly I was very invested in
24:35
the episode. David Morrissey.
24:37
I remember going into it thinking 01 obvious choice to be
24:40
the next Doctor and then by the end of it I thought man, I'd
24:43
love him to be the next Doctor. He is really smooth.
24:46
So he won me over throughout the episode.
24:48
And as we're never going to talk about it again, then can I also
24:51
give a shout out to the fact that it has a scene in a snowy
24:54
graveyard with the the actor playing the the vicar is the son
24:59
of Andre Morel, who played Professor Quete Mas.
25:02
So we have Professor Quete, that's his son in a snowy
25:05
graveyard getting killed by Cybermen as Dervla Cohen,
25:08
gimblet eyed and dressed in red, looks on, is, I think, a classic
25:12
scene in Doctor Who. Now I feel.
25:14
None of us had that. On.
25:16
Our list No. I feel Toby Haydock.
25:20
I just. I just had Cyber Shades of crap.
25:24
21st century festive Lauren would be.
25:29
That's what happens to the costume.
25:32
Gosh. OK.
25:33
So a shock round one. So let's move on to our next
25:39
victim. So the wheel is spinning.
25:41
Sink quickly. Oh, good grief.
25:44
Real me in my special girl. Come on.
25:46
OK, enough. Enough.
25:48
Please. All right, you.
25:53
Asked. I did OK, so it's May,
25:57
unfortunately. So I'm going to go 2nd and I am
26:01
going to pick last Christmas. You bastard.
26:04
That's my favorite. Well, any good, so hopefully
26:07
you'll vote it in. So I'm voting last Christmas
26:10
because it's probably my favorite too.
26:12
So my three reasons for last Christmas is, first of all, I
26:16
think it's a fantastic concept. We know Steven Moffett likes
26:19
doing a spin on established tales, so as we will come to you
26:23
later in this podcast, we've got spins on Dickens, we've got CS
26:26
Lewis, we've got Superman the movie, all his individual
26:30
episodes and Doctor Who spin on those.
26:32
But what Last Christmas does that the others don't do is take
26:36
a potpourri of different sources.
26:39
So we've got aliens in there, we've got the thing in there,
26:42
we've got Miracle on 34th St. all of which are videos that
26:46
they've shown is going to watch on Christmas Day at the end.
26:48
But on top of that we've got a huge, great dollop of Inception.
26:52
So dreams within a dream. And then on top of that again
26:55
we've got Doctor Who. So it's absolute melting pot of
26:59
all these different sources, which really shouldn't work
27:02
together because they you would imagine they will probably fight
27:05
with each other, but I think they work superbly together.
27:09
It's a very, very clever story, which comes to my second point,
27:14
which is the layered plot. So of these eight that we've
27:17
picked, I would say that Last Christmas is probably the one
27:20
that would most work best as a regular episode.
27:23
In the regular season, it feels less Christmassy and it really
27:27
makes you think. A lot of the other Christmas
27:29
specials we talked about earlier, Toby Toby mentioned
27:32
Voyage of the Damned, which is a great example of a kind of real
27:35
you can lie back after a couple of sherries on Christmas Day and
27:38
watch and enjoy Last Christmas. You've got to be thinking that
27:42
that episode really makes you think.
27:44
The dream within a dream within a dream within a dream.
27:48
You've got to be on the ball and think even from the from the
27:51
rooftop opening where Santa and the elves appear to Clara, you
27:55
know something's wrong. You know that's not really
27:58
Santa, but you don't know what it is you're thinking straight
28:01
away. Then we cut to the Arctic base.
28:03
We've got Shona dancing away across to Merry Christmas,
28:06
everyone, while something's rising up.
28:08
I mean, it's just the audience must be thinking what the hell
28:11
is going on here. But it's it really works.
28:14
And there's no obvious solution or obvious answer.
28:17
It makes you work for it. But it's totally rewarding
28:19
because all those questions get paid off.
28:22
And one of my favorite pieces that I've got to mention is
28:24
really early on. So the Doctor and Clara have
28:27
arrived in the medical Bay. The base personnel have come in.
28:31
We suddenly see all the dream crabs descend from the ceiling
28:34
onto them and then Santa comes in, save them.
28:38
But we've kind of seen the dream club crabs land on our heroes
28:42
faces, so it feels like it's a little bit of an odd cut.
28:45
And at the time I thought, oh that's a bit of unusual editing
28:48
because they were down and then they've escaped.
28:50
It's only about another half hour later we discover that is
28:54
the cut for another dream sequence.
28:56
So all of this just really pays off.
28:58
It's very, very clever. There's a lot to think about.
29:01
And then my Third Point is it's bittersweet.
29:05
And what good Christmas story isn't bittersweet?
29:08
So here we've got the I mean, I will admit I cry every single
29:12
time. We've got the scene with Clara
29:13
and Danny, which is a dream. Clara wants to kind of revel in
29:17
the dreamscape. Which Danny the Doctor sending
29:19
her warnings that it's a dream, but she just wants to go with it
29:22
because she wants to relive a life with Danny.
29:25
And then at the end we've got old Clara and the Doctor in that
29:28
beautiful scene that hark back to Time of the Doctor with the
29:31
breaking of the cracker. It's absolutely glorious.
29:34
And at the heart of it is the the line.
29:36
And I've written this line down because I just think it's
29:38
beautiful. Do you know why people get
29:41
together at Christmas? Because every time they do, it
29:44
might be the last time. Every Christmas is last
29:46
Christmas and this is ours. So I'm filling up.
29:49
As I'm saying it, I just think it's really emotional, makes you
29:52
think about Christmas. On a personal note, this first
29:56
went out in 2014. My mum had fairly recently been
29:59
diagnosed with Alzheimer's, so she was starting to kind of
30:02
drift away. And so I'm kind of hearing words
30:04
like that and just kind of remind you of the humanity of
30:07
Christmas and all coming together just really worked for
30:11
me emotionally. And it still does.
30:13
And I think that bittersweet quality is is glorious.
30:16
And most of Moffitt's stories have that, and that's what's the
30:20
icing on the cake for me. So those are my three reasons
30:22
for recommending last Christmas the concept, the plot, and the
30:26
bittersweet nature. I think it's very hard, you
30:30
know, to to do a dream within a dream episode now in the wake of
30:35
so much genre TV that's done that idea to death stuff like
30:40
The X-Files is Field Trip, Star Trek, the next Generations.
30:44
Good grief, what was it called there?
30:46
There was, There was Night Terrors, I think it was called
30:48
and, you know, and basically every show has done it.
30:51
I think he managed to surprise me about three times in that I
30:54
kept thinking, OK, this is the last one.
30:56
Now this is reality right up until again, when it's like, Oh
30:59
no, they weren't base personnel at all.
31:02
And the only other thing I wanted to say about last
31:04
Christmas and the reason why, another reason why I want to
31:07
keep it in. So my vote is definitely to keep
31:09
it in because you were extremely persuasive is I think it takes
31:13
some nuts to have that horror sequence where the dream perhaps
31:15
come down and then have a load of toys coming in slow motion
31:19
with Christmas music and Santa Claus walking into the room.
31:22
I think Moffett's got balls if nothing else and that's swishing
31:26
tone. So it's just how ballsy you can
31:28
be. So it's a it's a stay in for me.
31:33
Mr. Moss and Mr. Haydock. I I'd agree it's a it's a stay
31:37
in for me you know that collision of influences and
31:40
elements is just it's you know it is something only Doctor Who
31:43
does that that well right. You know the other shows have
31:46
tried it and always just feels a little bit kooky and self
31:49
consciously work I think it's amazing and and you know as you
31:53
said as well Steven Moffat so clever the way he pulls the
31:57
trick so many times but high hiding plots twists and devices
32:03
within the language of television So he goes well I
32:06
wasn't you know like in you know Forest of the Dead sort of hang
32:09
on a minute we were just in the room just now and now we're
32:12
outside you know and he can hide all that brilliantly.
32:15
I would like to give a shout out though for possibly one of the
32:18
best one episode characters of all time in Shona.
32:22
I think, you know, getting famous, she wasn't supposed.
32:24
To be was she? Well.
32:25
No, don't. Don't you feel a bit cheated?
32:27
And I know it's a cliche, but come on, Big Finish.
32:29
Yeah, you can. You can do it.
32:32
They've done everything else right.
32:33
Come on, we've had a story with young Kasran Sardek, so you know
32:37
anything is possible. But I just you know I think she
32:41
is she is just wonderful in that and it's it's no surprise that
32:46
Faye Marsey is is now you know in in everything and so many
32:49
other wonderful brilliant things you know and or not least in
32:52
Game of Thrones. I just, I think she's strictly
32:54
kind of the episode. Terrific Day at staying in.
32:57
Fabulous. But I hate to say your vote is
33:00
superfluous, Mr. Haydock, But we still want to hear from you.
33:03
Not not for the first time in my life I'm surpassed with, well, I
33:09
mean I'm I'm glad because I I would never like to bring the
33:12
axe down on anything. Which is why I'm not not good at
33:15
this sort of thing because I would always feel sorry for the
33:18
thing about to get back heaved out.
33:20
So as this is going through, should I just sound a note of
33:25
caution for our yourselves? Because we'll come and revisit
33:30
this and find out that we imagined half of it.
33:32
Or. What?
33:36
The hell is that? Oh.
33:37
Sorry. Is Yeah.
33:38
Is that as a Christmas Day episode?
33:43
I fear it has too much reliance on with the you know with Danny
33:49
Pink coming back in and you know Clara who I think it's fair to
33:53
say Steven Moffat was more fascinated by than everybody
33:56
else in the world. Even though I think that ending
34:01
is very effectively done and I think Jenna Coleman acts it
34:03
brilliantly and and yes I agree that it's quite sort of
34:06
difficult and heart tugging which I think is is bold and and
34:10
the emotional content is very very successfully deployed.
34:15
I I wonder if if it and I'm I'm aware this is a fault that all
34:20
Doctor Who fans and so of course I I I have it is is with an eye
34:24
on the general public for whom it is perhaps not entry level
34:29
who and I think that is a a fatal flaw in a in a Doctor Who
34:34
even though I think it's synthesis of you know Christmas
34:37
elements and based under siege elements and and of the of the
34:40
dramatic and the and the sort of festive and all of that is is
34:44
very well done I would I would ring that as my cloister bell of
34:48
caution as we move into the next phase.
34:51
We said earlier, didn't we, about the voyage of the damp And
34:54
then the next season the ratings shot up.
34:57
The ratings went down in season nine, didn't they?
35:01
After last Christmas, Kapow. They did also launch it against
35:06
the Rugby World Cup though, or. Something that is a good point
35:09
that is a good. Point for three months later.
35:11
But hey, who's arguing about a few months?
35:16
OK, so let's return to the hamster wheel.
35:19
Oh God, what's the other song? I've forgotten it.
35:21
There's one more. Well, I woke up today.
35:29
And it is Michael. Michael.
35:32
Oh, yes. Welcome to my cruel brain.
35:37
I'm going to choose A Christmas Carol, or I believe as it was
35:41
called earlier, Matt Smith's A Christmas Carol.
35:43
You did salvage the one I was going to savage.
35:47
OK, but you know, just for the just for the sake of the format,
35:50
Joe, a little bit of mystery about where he might go on for
35:53
this one. Apologies.
35:57
No. So I I I think this is a
35:59
wonderful it's my first. My first point in favour of A
36:02
Christmas Carol is that I think this is some of Stephen
36:05
Moffitt's most accomplished timey Wimey writing since Blink
36:10
in terms of that. This idea of, you know, time
36:13
travel could be a mechanism and that's often what it just is in
36:15
Doctor Who. You know, as people say it's
36:17
it's a, it's a protagonist delivery device a lot of the
36:19
time. But in in retelling A Christmas
36:22
Carol, you know, and it does feel a little bit, it has the
36:25
danger of fitting a little bit. You know, my family Christmas
36:27
special that, you know, every series at some point is going to
36:30
do its version of A Christmas Carol.
36:33
But Steven Moffat gets the idea of time travel as being
36:36
something about memory as well. That time travel within a
36:38
lifetime is so much, can be so much more powerful and emotive
36:42
than than just, you know, oh, what if we visited the Romans?
36:45
What's an entirely different type of story as well?
36:47
And I think this idea that you could see yourself across a
36:51
lifetime, that you are different people at different stages,
36:54
that's an idea that he comes back to, I think, in time with
36:56
the Doctor as well. You know what?
36:58
If you can see all the different people you are along the way,
37:00
How much you know you go the long way round across a
37:03
lifetime. But what if you could pop back
37:04
and see these different things? What would you make of yourself?
37:08
And I think it is because you come to already knowing the
37:12
structure of the story. I think there are so many bits
37:14
in it that are deceptively clever.
37:16
The bit where the Doctor and Kasran are watching his old home
37:20
video and then the Doctor leaves and walks in on the home video,
37:24
That's one of the best bits of visual storytelling Doctor Who
37:27
has ever done, possibly that humanity has ever achieved.
37:29
I shouldn't not not overache the arguments, but I would.
37:33
I would comfortably put that forward.
37:36
That's bold. That is bold.
37:38
But this idea of the Doctor, a time traveler that's, you know,
37:41
because a lot of this is, is sort of come back from his short
37:44
story continuity errors, wasn't it, that he wrote.
37:46
It was first bit of published Doctor Who fiction, which was
37:48
all about the Sylvester McCoy. Doctor needs to borrow a library
37:53
book in order to save the world. And so in order to do so he
37:56
slowly goes back and changes and improves the life of the
37:58
librarian so that she's less mean spirited and and ultimately
38:03
wants to give him the library book.
38:04
And it's it's a fantastic idea and it was wonderful to you know
38:07
see that played out again for for that mass for that Christmas
38:11
Day audience. I think my second point as well
38:13
is sort of coming on from that the the the whole a lot of
38:19
activations adaptations are A Christmas Carol lean on the
38:21
obvious stuff like they build up the love story or they, you
38:25
know, they they build up the social commentary and that's all
38:27
fine. But I've really liked the father
38:30
son dynamic. And in the original, in the
38:32
original book, I think Scrooge's father is a sort of he he he
38:35
doesn't feature but you know you're told about him.
38:37
There's an information that perhaps his influence is partly
38:40
why, you know, Scrooge was not treated well as a young man was
38:43
was fitted with the wrong sort of values for life to have a
38:46
happy life. And Stephen Moffitt really draws
38:49
that out and puts that centre stage Even.
38:50
So if I was having Michael Gambon play, play both parts,
38:55
that moment where you know the the the crux of it, the climax,
38:59
the ghost of Christmas Future. The twist that Kazran's heart
39:03
breaks not because of anything he's shown, but because his
39:07
younger self mistakes him for his father.
39:10
And you think, oh that's that's a real punch to the gut
39:14
emotional moment, isn't it? What if you became the person
39:16
you never wanted to be? What if you became the monster
39:18
in in the wardrobe? All that stuff is fantastic and
39:21
and not to dazzle you with my cosmopolitan lifestyle, but I I
39:23
went to see Christopher Eccleston give his Ebenezer
39:25
Scrooge in Jack Thorns A Christmas Carol a couple of the
39:30
weekend before last. Did you just drop a name there,
39:32
Michael? I'm.
39:33
So sorry. I'm so sorry.
39:35
I will. I can't even remember it.
39:37
These are the sorts of things. This is how I live my life.
39:41
And yeah, but this is, you know, that's a celebrated.
39:43
That's a really celebrated adaptation that the old VIX put
39:45
it on, I think every year since 2017 and people, you know hold
39:48
Guardian articles about how you know, brilliantly.
39:51
It interprets Dickens's story. It does almost exactly the same
39:55
scene at the end. Spoiler alert, it does almost.
39:58
It comes back to almost exactly the same idea of Scrooge seeing,
40:01
you know, what would you say to your younger self?
40:03
What would your younger self think of you?
40:04
I think that's a real testament. You know, a lot of Doctor Who is
40:07
really fantastic writing gets hidden away and under considered
40:10
because it's Doctor Who, right? I think this is.
40:12
This is top tier writing from Steven Moffat in and you know,
40:16
as we, as we've said several times, as few fans, we are
40:19
rightly concerned about what the general public think.
40:21
If we didn't, we'd be Star Wars fans saying, you know, but this
40:25
is a really brilliant quality TV drama for your for your
40:30
Christmas Day. And I think for my my final and
40:35
last point, it's just it's also, it looks beautiful.
40:38
I know we've said that. But it is such a clever,
40:41
cleverly designed piece of television, you know, that sort
40:43
of Dickensian effect, but not in detail.
40:46
And the closer you look and the little weirder and the little
40:48
details are all strange. So it remains Doctor Who in that
40:51
in that sort of world that doesn't seem to quite exist at
40:54
any time. So that's that's my that's my
40:56
defence of A Christmas Carol. I suppose we better cross to Joe
41:01
because I've got a feeling I don't know why, but I've got a
41:04
feeling that he might be taking a slightly contrary position,
41:07
so. I've got a feeling that if
41:11
William Hartnell's First Doctor should appear in A Christmas
41:14
Carol, he would say something along the lines of about Matt
41:18
Smith's 11th Doctor. What are we going to do with
41:21
this medal? What are we going to do with
41:23
him? I don't think the Doctor should
41:25
play God with people's lives, even to save lives, even to make
41:29
him a better person. I just feel as if the premise is
41:31
fundamentally flawed and it's dressed up beautifully.
41:34
You're right. Pick Wode's design and the
41:36
direction and the shark coming the fishes is absolutely
41:40
gorgeous. It reminds me of something that
41:42
Stephen Moffitt said about the 11th Doctor himself is that he
41:45
is an appalling person, but he's dressed up to be very charming.
41:49
And Amy Bourne, he's played by Matt Smith, so he gets away with
41:52
it. And that's how I feel about A
41:53
Christmas Carol. I think it is a beautiful
41:55
episode. Well, I just really, really hate
41:59
that premise. I don't think the Doctor should
42:01
play God. And that is my that's like like,
42:03
I just can't get over that. I remember from the beginning of
42:05
the episodes I was like, surely he's not going to go back and
42:07
rewrite this man's life, Is he for his own ends?
42:10
I mean, I don't like Amy and Rory either.
42:12
So, like, I don't really like. So you're happy for them to stay
42:14
on the space show? Absolutely.
42:16
Plus the other 4000 people that were about to die.
42:18
The only thing I truly love about that episode is that the
42:21
costumes from The Wheel in Space turn up because it's the same
42:24
costume designer, isn't it? As the Wheel in Space and you
42:27
can see that she's got exactly the same colours as the the
42:30
people on the wheel. It's fabulous.
42:32
It's it's a it's a fabulously made piece of television.
42:35
I just. I just don't like it.
42:39
Oh, so it's a no from Joe. It's a no.
42:41
From me, Toby. Oh, yes, it's all right.
42:49
It's all right. Toby, do what you need to do.
42:52
You're in a safe space, I. Mean I I I mean, I don't like
42:55
being negative about any Doctor Who Not my well.
43:01
I'm trying to do what you want me to.
43:02
I'm trying to become the creature that you are forming me
43:05
in. Forging me into.
43:06
This is the. One time you know you've got a
43:08
positively inclined Doctor Who podcast.
43:09
This is the one chance you can vent.
43:12
Yes, but the reason I've got a positively inclined Dr. podcast
43:15
was because I don't want to be out here saying mean things
43:18
about any Doctor Who or any creative endeavour.
43:21
However, as but you have decided that I should have it within my
43:27
power to dish out some some bug should I so desire.
43:32
I would point to I think what what I think troubles me about
43:37
the episode. It troubled me certainly when at
43:39
the time of course you you get less set up about Doctor Who
43:43
stories as time goes on and and appreciate them for what they
43:45
are rather than for what they aren't.
43:47
But you know, flannel aside, qualification aside, why didn't
43:55
he, if he was going to travel back into I don't.
43:57
I'm not. I'm not wild about time travel
44:00
within Doctor Who stories. I I, I.
44:03
For me that is a fundamental it it it, it introduces fundamental
44:12
problems within to the format of Doctor Who.
44:14
Why don't the people at school, why don't they just travel back
44:17
in time and stop that happening? They'd say, because you can't.
44:20
Within a story, I'd say first law of time, whatever, you know
44:23
you, you can't. Oh, and now you can.
44:26
Now you can do what Bill and Ted did do, did for jokes.
44:30
You could do what Curse of Fatal Death did, because it was a
44:33
Comic Relief episode that played with the idea that it's a show
44:36
about time travel. Oh thank God they would never do
44:38
that in the actual show itself. Thought I If you want to travel
44:43
back in time and stop the events of A Christmas Carol happening,
44:47
travel back in time where the spaceship people are and stop
44:50
their spaceship or fix their spaceship.
44:54
That's much easier than rewriting a person's personality
44:57
in history. And unfortunately it may be a
45:01
glib point but it points to the fundamental issues with doing
45:04
that with Doctor Who's format mess if you because then it
45:07
becomes because you you go oh it's so clever.
45:10
Well it's only clever within the rules that you've constructed.
45:13
I could play the game Hamdi Wandi Woo really cleverly
45:16
against you Michael. Because I know the rules because
45:19
I make them up whenever I want. And you might go, ah yeah, but
45:22
I'm playing my Hamdi over my woo and I go and I go in Go 8 and
45:29
you go by and I don't. Know the rules.
45:31
Did you? I'd yeah, yeah.
45:35
Did you Michael, Did you know that you couldn't play a Handy
45:37
over your woo in Round 8? Yeah.
45:41
You've stunned me. Now, whereas whereas me telling
45:46
you that means I'm really, really clever because only I
45:49
could see that coming. Well of course I did.
45:54
So to me it's all sort of smoke and mirrors in a way, and I do
45:57
admire that. Very intricate and all of that
46:01
that Moffat does better than anybody else.
46:03
But I think within that messing the timey wimey stuff I I find
46:08
unless it's totally watertight, which by its own nature it, it
46:13
isn't and can and I think probably can never be which is
46:16
why people never did it before. I think it unravels.
46:20
It damages Doctor Who a bit, actually, because I can never
46:23
now say when they say, why can't they just travel back in time
46:26
and change that? I can't now say they can't.
46:29
You know, why isn't every small role?
46:32
Why don't they save their lives when each security guard gets
46:36
killed? I can travel back in time and
46:38
stop that happening. Oh, because he's not played by
46:40
Michael Gambon or, you know, certainly some lives become more
46:46
important than others. Which to me again Doctor Who at
46:49
its best sort of goes, actually. We celebrate small individual
46:53
moments slash people slash and if you suddenly go, well, no,
46:56
it's, you know this this person deserves the focus, this person
46:58
doesn't it. It to me.
47:00
And as I said, look, I understand the drive to do it.
47:02
I understand why a lot of and and and I think Steven Moffat
47:05
does a lot of that stuff really, really cleverly.
47:07
But I think what we lose from Doctor Who compared to what we
47:12
gained from, it's not enough of a pay off for me for those
47:15
episodes to ever be my favorite. I'm not saying they're not good,
47:18
I'm sorry, not saying they're not well run.
47:20
I'm not saying that he he doesn't write brilliantly and is
47:23
much better at jokes and scares but is best than than anybody
47:27
else and and all of that. It's just that that element of
47:31
it means that I couldn't, I couldn't 100%, you know, You
47:37
know, dive on it, tear its paper off and say this is the best
47:40
thing ever. You you once delivered sort of
47:42
the ultimate shit sandwich on an episode of Happens to a blunt
47:46
Penknife when we did The Silence on the Library Because you that
47:49
was. We loved the episodes and we it
47:51
was couched in so many compliments for Stephen Moffitt.
47:54
But one thing you did say right in the middle of the episode,
47:56
I'll never forget it, is I do wish the postman had been
47:59
diverted that day he went to deliver The Time Traveller's
48:02
Wife to Stephen Moffitt's house and that he'd never read it.
48:06
You're right, you you pull a thread and it unravels, doesn't
48:09
it? And what was so good about
48:13
Doctor Empty Child Doctor Dances and and Blink and and those was
48:18
that they were what you know the the the little the nano bots are
48:22
introduced they're the pay off. You're everything.
48:24
Everything ties together and you go, my God, this guy has threads
48:29
from every single post it note and they are at this jigsaw fits
48:33
together perfectly. And I find that as time goes on
48:37
and the stuff gets a bit more complicated, stuff just happens
48:41
and you go if if you want to do that kind of flourish it has to
48:45
be watertight. And if something as simple as
48:48
going why didn't he stop the spaceship is enough to make your
48:52
whole story fall down. And I don't think it's enough to
48:55
say because it wouldn't be as good an episode because I think
48:57
you have to give us an in story explanation or something or at
49:01
least pay lip service to that or yeah it's a so if if if we're
49:07
being asked to pick holes, which we are that's that's why I would
49:11
stop Christmas Carol. Wow.
49:13
OK. So that is probably the biggest
49:15
shocker because I think Chris. Has never saw that actually.
49:18
Wins. No, it usually wins all the
49:19
polls for the best Christmas one.
49:21
Michael, I was going to wholeheartedly support you.
49:24
And I'd also saved We had some feed.
49:28
We didn't ask for feedback, but I spoke to a couple of the The
49:31
Hamster regulars. So Sy Hart sent us in some
49:34
feedback about Christmas Carol, and he said that his favorite
49:38
Christmas episode was Christmas Carol because it's the most
49:40
Christmassy Dr. Whoever he says his.
49:42
Favorite. Doctor being fabulous and
49:44
carrying the episode pretty much on his own, and one of Moffett's
49:47
most touching and clever scripts.
49:49
It's visually beautiful too, Is what side the money.
49:52
On my side, let's burn here. Support you?
49:55
Because I think the world building will.
49:58
The world building I think is amazing because who would think
50:01
about fish flying in fog and music that resonates?
50:04
Ice crystals and people being left as collateral for loans.
50:07
All these magical things all come together with the set
50:10
design and it's. I think it's a beautiful
50:12
episode. Murray Gold's music Nobody's
50:14
mentioned, but I'm going to give out a shout to that,
50:16
particularly Abigail's song, which I know everyone was up in
50:19
arms when they thought Catherine Jenkins might be singing on
50:21
Doctor Who. He's a great singer.
50:24
She's a great singer, but she's no actress.
50:26
I'm sorry. And I just don't believe the
50:29
romance because I just don't believe her as an actress in
50:32
that role. Yeah, I'm talking about.
50:35
Limited I. Do wonder if Michael Gambon's
50:38
actually a little bit embarrassed being in that
50:40
episode as well, because he owes for that sort of growly, snarly
50:43
performance. There's a few moments where he
50:45
has a lot of depth, but I think there's a lot of moments where
50:47
there's no subtlety at all in that he.
50:49
Did an interview in 2015 where he said he didn't think he was
50:53
very good in it and he didn't quite get it.
50:54
He said he had great fun but he didn't quite get it and he
50:57
thought he'd done a bad job. I I think he's marvellous in it
51:00
personally. So I was going to support you
51:02
Michael, but it looks like we are voted out and I feel.
51:05
Terrible. I feel terrible.
51:07
No, don't feel terrible. It's great.
51:09
There's got to be winners and losers, Toby.
51:12
Yeah, I don't like the responsibility.
51:15
Well look, if it falls to me to be the people's champion, then I
51:19
will. I will.
51:20
We're in a sorry stay Michael. That's all I'm.
51:22
Saying Can this world do no better than you as its champion?
51:26
Apparently not. Right.
51:28
So we are on to our next Gosh, what other shockers are we going
51:32
to get? The wheel is spinning.
51:34
The wheel is spinning and it's Joe.
51:35
Oh well. It's not a fix.
51:38
I would like to choose. I would like to choose the
51:40
Doctor of the Widow and the Wardrobe are.
51:43
You going to champion it or of? Course, of course.
51:46
I'm not going to champion it. I've got about 25 reasons why I
51:51
wouldn't choose this episode to go through to the next round.
51:54
This is the. Oh, so you can.
51:56
You can choose one that you want to consign to hell for all, of
51:59
course. Absolutely.
52:00
Oh, it's. Christmas.
52:02
I thought we were just having to choose one.
52:04
Oh, no you can. Condemn it.
52:06
You can pick three reasons why to condemn a story.
52:09
Oh, OK. I thought I did four and four as
52:12
I was sort of choosing my Reasons Go for the Doctor
52:15
winner. It's literally the only episode
52:17
of Doctor Who that I've fallen asleep live watching.
52:20
I was so bored when Rusty Davis talked about Planet Zulk, that
52:26
is literally planets off. I don't remember a thing about
52:30
the details in that planet. I have watched the episode a few
52:32
times, but I remember there's some trees, there's some lights
52:36
going up in the air, there's some wooden people.
52:38
There's actually, well, those kids are in it as well.
52:42
Yeah, I just, it is so boring that planet, isn't it?
52:47
Like there's there's nothing going on there.
52:49
There's really no incident going on there.
52:51
And so, yeah, for that reason, I think it is possibly the dullest
52:55
world we've ever visited in a Doctor Who story.
52:59
They find a portal to ABBC 1 Christmas ident.
53:02
They do. They do.
53:04
From 2010 we take your tenants in the background and arrange
53:07
it. My second reason is the
53:10
caretaker sequences at the beginning.
53:12
Now, I like fun Doctor Who, but, and I'm very, very rarely, I
53:18
love time in the Ronnie. I'm very rarely embarrassed by
53:20
Doctor Who, but I was watching that on Christmas Day with my
53:24
family, since those chairs were dancing around the room and the
53:28
lemonade taps and all of that going on and they're looking at
53:32
me and the judgement I'm getting.
53:33
I thought, you know, I'm 40 now. I thought I was beyond all of
53:37
that. I was oh man, I could have died.
53:40
And you've got sort of Matt Smith that is, you know, quirky,
53:43
wirky, timey, wimey, sonicy, wanaki, jammy dodgery, worst.
53:48
I think this is the point where Matt Smith, I thought, he
53:51
doesn't give up in the role because he still has great
53:53
moments the next season. But essentially they're writing
53:56
him as a series of quirks rather than a character in his own
53:59
right. And they're really annoying
54:02
quirks. Like, you know, you know, Matt
54:04
Smith is my least favorite Doctor and that is a
54:07
controversial opinion. And I think this is the tipping
54:09
point for me. Oh my God, Michael, you look so
54:11
shocked. One of my favourites.
54:14
Well, he's everybody's favorite. But then, Paul Mcgann's my other
54:18
favorite, so I'm just a contrary shite.
54:20
Have you ever, have you ever seen him?
54:22
When he does anger, you know, you embarrass me, River.
54:25
Oh, it's just terrible. But sorry, I'm so sorry to
54:29
disillusion you here on Christmas Day.
54:32
So those sequences alone would be enough to consign this.
54:36
And Moffett writes great comedy, you know?
54:38
And he he's been writing for kids for a long, long time.
54:42
So I don't know what went wrong here.
54:44
It's so saccharine. It's so sentimental.
54:46
I feel as if I've had that tea that Jon Pertwee makes in
54:50
Invasion of the Dinosaurs with 18 sugars in it by the time I
54:53
finish it. And my last reason is the kids.
54:59
The kids of the Steven Moffat era.
55:02
It it baffles me how a family man can have children in his so
55:07
often and just none of them are likable.
55:11
I don't really find any of them believable.
55:13
The most believable kids, I think in Doctor Who are in The
55:15
Sarah Jane Adventures, and I think they're written with a
55:19
sort of an adult's mind. They're sort of young adults
55:22
rather than children in the Muffet.
55:24
They're just so annoying and in this I can't even remember their
55:26
names. I call them Specky and Bossy in
55:30
this one. And they absolutely.
55:32
I call the children of the Muffet era the Brood of the
55:34
Damned because there's not a one of them beyond.
55:37
He got it right the first time with that young Amy Pond.
55:41
She was great. And then from that point on, I
55:43
mean list of night terrors, that kid that, that the bunch that
55:47
were in in the forest of the night.
55:49
I mean you wouldn't want to look after any of these children,
55:52
Angie and Artie. I mean where do I stop?
55:55
But the two in this, I can't remember a thing about them
55:59
either beyond the fact that they've lost their parents.
56:02
And so I don't even really consider them characters.
56:05
They're just ciphers going through a non existent plot on a
56:09
badly sketched world with a big dollop of syrup at the end, all
56:14
this Mother Earth nonsense that comes in at the end.
56:16
I know people that really championed this episode, I just
56:20
think it's a bit too extreme with the sentiment and just a
56:24
bit lacking with the detail. Which is not Joe, not Steven
56:28
Moffat's thing, really. You need to come off the fence a
56:31
little bit, Joe. Sorry.
56:32
Yeah, we're not quite getting what you're trying to say.
56:34
It's so boring, isn't it? OK, so the rest of us need to
56:40
decide. I will say first of all, I did
56:42
get one other bit of feedback from Mr. Fraser, Gregory.
56:45
Oh. Don't listen to him.
56:47
Who puts this as his 29th best Doctor Who story ever?
56:53
Look, Michael, let's appalled again.
56:55
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm wondering who who it beats the 29th position
56:59
and who is languishing in the 30th.
57:01
Actually said it's his favorite Christmas episode.
57:05
He said Christmas dinner with the family.
57:07
That's for me what Christmas is all about.
57:08
We get it in this story. It's not end of the world stuff.
57:11
It's just a simple tale about the people we love.
57:13
It's the first Christmas special I watch every year and I'm
57:16
already counting down the days till I can watch it again.
57:19
That could be my problem then, because I had such a
57:22
dysfunctional family growing up. So my mum was essentially Jackie
57:26
Tyler, you know, all those people sort of come around her
57:29
flat, all those people that pile in in aid into London.
57:31
That was effectively my house growing up.
57:33
So I can buy into that sort of setting.
57:35
But this sort of picture postcard family and Doctor
57:38
William and wardrobe, I I never knew any of that.
57:40
So maybe that's another reason why this doesn't chime for me.
57:44
And of course it's it's been, it's been sent down to #20.
57:47
Is it 27th in Fraser's or 29th, 20?
57:50
Yeah, it would have been. It would have been 27th, if only
57:52
it wasn't for the Dominators and Megalos.
57:56
It's true. He had some very perverse
57:59
choices. Does Mr. Gregory.
58:01
His number one was the Happiness Patrol.
58:04
He's nothing if not contrary. I can't argue with that one, but
58:07
I will argue with this. Sorry, Toby, is it?
58:10
Is it? Is it me now the?
58:13
Three of us. I was just being rude about
58:15
Fraser. He loves it.
58:18
You do some, you do some advocacy or otherwise.
58:20
Rod, I'll. I'll come back.
58:21
In I think I'm going to agree with Joe on this one and I am
58:25
very rarely anti Moffett, but this was to me, I think this is
58:29
his his biggest flop. So we're promised Narnia, aren't
58:32
we? We think we're going to get an
58:34
exciting twist on Narnia. We get a box and some trees and
58:39
I think to use that lovely word and to support oh Toby, you'll
58:43
have to. You'll have to give me the word
58:45
and. Disappointment.
58:47
Thank you very much. I can't get my word, but this is
58:49
the perfect example of that. We don't get Narnia at all.
58:53
We just get some poor acting from two children.
58:57
Cyril. It only has one expression
58:59
That's his mouth just gaped open Whatever's happening.
59:02
It's like watching Daniel Radcliffe in Harry Potter and
59:04
the Philosopher's Stone, isn't it?
59:05
It's got like too much 2 expressions.
59:07
It's much worse. And these glasses are so
59:10
obviously designed to give him, to exaggerate his eyes, but and
59:14
then the mouth is just open and that's it.
59:16
But there isn't a plot. We don't have any tangible
59:18
threat. There's no villains.
59:21
I love Steven Moffat's comedy, but my God, those three tree
59:24
harvesters are. Just.
59:26
Painful. These are painful.
59:29
These are Andrazzani trees, or whatever it is.
59:32
I remember Bill. I love Bill Bailey, but I mean,
59:35
remember him hearing him say that and thinking this is what
59:38
Doctor Who sounds like to people who don't like Doctor Who, isn't
59:41
it? And then we end up, we end up
59:44
with, I'm going to absolutely cringe.
59:47
As I say, the humany womany, which is I thought at this point
59:53
Stephen Mofford had lost the plot.
59:54
Thank God he got it back again. This was this is he's one up or
59:58
yeah, one of his very, very few aberrations in my mind.
1:00:02
But I think it's terrible. I love the ending with Amy and
1:00:05
Rory. Suddenly Doctor Who's back again
1:00:07
and Amy within one line is more real to me than any of the
1:00:11
characters I've been watching for the previous hour.
1:00:14
But the rest of it, personally, I am very happy to consign to
1:00:18
peace. Pottage.
1:00:21
Toby and Michael. Yeah, I mean I can't really
1:00:25
defend it. I I I think I would say I I I
1:00:27
like the idea of the Doctor and the Widow and the Wardrobe more
1:00:30
than I like the execution. I quite like what it's going
1:00:33
for. I quite like that it has, you
1:00:35
know, there is a sort of attempt, as you say at doing the
1:00:37
Narnia when when you first go through to that world and it
1:00:39
does feel very different and very and very strange and
1:00:42
magical. I like, I'd like that.
1:00:44
I like the idea of trying to have a sort of genuinely adult
1:00:47
relationship with Christmas and trying to say something about
1:00:51
the difference experiences of it between children and adults.
1:00:54
And, you know, the sort of reflexive thing of being an
1:00:56
adult with children at Christmas are quite.
1:00:58
I like the idea of all of that. But I think in its execution, it
1:01:02
just ends up being like those people who have, you know,
1:01:05
perfectly manicured Christmas trees with all of the matching
1:01:08
ornaments and, you know, they dress their children up all in
1:01:12
beiges and Browns so they look like medieval peasants.
1:01:14
And you think it's all, it's all very classy, it's all very
1:01:17
refined, it's all very well done.
1:01:18
But it's it's lacking out, completely absent of any joy of
1:01:22
any actual substance to have any of it.
1:01:25
You know, I'm not actually getting anything out of it.
1:01:28
And I think you're right, Rob, that you know he can.
1:01:31
You know Steven Moffat's done some heartbreaking writing in,
1:01:36
you know, in his time some of some of the, you know, some of
1:01:38
my favorite lines of Doctor Who will.
1:01:40
You know the bit you know precisely here where he did it
1:01:44
right was, you know, the scene that everyone loves with the
1:01:47
Doctor putting Amy to bed in The Big Bang and you know.
1:01:50
And when you'll wake up, you'll have a mum and a mum and a dad
1:01:53
and you won't Remember Me anymore, which gets me every
1:01:55
single time. And but there's none of that
1:01:57
here. It just ends up on Christmas
1:01:59
Day, sat there around with everyone all jolly watching a
1:02:01
woman going, I don't want to watch him die.
1:02:04
And you think I just don't know. It hits the right vibe, you
1:02:07
know. And when it's him from
1:02:09
Pointless, it possibly takes a little bit of way too.
1:02:12
Bizarrely, I will say I think the last scene with Amy and Rory
1:02:15
now that chimes because as the characters we care about, it's
1:02:18
the relationships, you know, we're used to and the actors
1:02:22
have brilliant chemistry, but it's like a minute at the end of
1:02:25
the episode, totally. I think we're condemning it to
1:02:29
the the pit, but do you have any words of defence for the Doctor,
1:02:34
the Widow and the Wardrobe? Well, well, I will give words of
1:02:36
defence pasty because I don't want it to seem like I'm.
1:02:39
I'm down on the Moffat area because I think Moffat does some
1:02:42
things with Doctor that that nobody else does as as well.
1:02:46
And I actually like the picture postcard stuff because not
1:02:51
because my Christmases were like that, although I am a country
1:02:54
boy and so I do identify much more with sort of snow and trees
1:02:58
and and and that cold bite of the country air than I do with
1:03:02
the urban sprawl that you did describe Joey.
1:03:04
But my childhood was far from idyllic.
1:03:07
But I think I find I find comfort in that and and and see
1:03:12
that as an aspiration and I like the atmosphere that that gives
1:03:15
Doc to and I think Moffat channels that a lot and and
1:03:17
indeed it was part of what I chose about although it's not a
1:03:20
Moffat the the the the next Doctor is I I I like that sort
1:03:25
of evocation because then I find Doctor Who interrupting it.
1:03:30
The sort of dissonance. The Doctor Who does well and I
1:03:32
enjoy that. I and I like that sort of fairy
1:03:37
tale thing and I actually like what he does with Matt Smith.
1:03:41
Who is this, you know, this this sort of slightly crazy anarchist
1:03:46
who gets things wrong. I quite like the alienness.
1:03:49
You know that quite often the doctors have been attempted to
1:03:52
to be portrayed as an alien but by doing that they make him
1:03:56
abrasive and unkind and that's never worked even when people
1:04:00
have tried to do it with the best of reasons.
1:04:02
But I think what they do with Matt Smith is they go, oh he
1:04:04
doesn't know what wine is like. Oh he doesn't quite know how to
1:04:07
make a bet. He forgets to put beds in the
1:04:10
bedroom because he's actually like an overgrown child.
1:04:13
He's a he's a child. He's what a child would be in a
1:04:16
in a magical grown-ups body. And and again I I find it
1:04:19
terribly moving that Doctor Who is is always harks back to our
1:04:23
childhoods whether they were good or bad and when they were
1:04:26
bad it tried to you know it's it's nonetheless part of a sort
1:04:31
of an idealization that we did. So I I find the way that Moffatt
1:04:34
so that the fact that his kids are you know kids who could
1:04:37
almost be from the Narnia stories from a picture book.
1:04:40
I I kind of find a good gateway into all of that and and how he
1:04:44
makes the Doctor. I find that I find that does
1:04:47
chime in with the way the show should be without me actually
1:04:52
knowing that was the way the show could be.
1:04:54
So it's it's always been it's always surprised me and yet made
1:04:57
perfect sense to me and I and I think that's a real positive
1:05:00
note of of how Morfat portrays the doctor.
1:05:04
I watched this again for this because it's never been one I've
1:05:07
particularly thought I really want to watch a Christmas.
1:05:10
What's it It's not called that. What's it called?
1:05:12
The Doctor? The Widow.
1:05:13
In the water. And and again, I like that kind
1:05:18
of. I like the ones set in the past.
1:05:20
I like Magic Claire Skinner. I like that sort of character.
1:05:25
I love the running joke about a big terrible driver.
1:05:28
You know, full of those lovely. I liked the bedroom.
1:05:31
I like the lemonade tap. I thought that again.
1:05:33
Tied AI. Then found it as soon as it went
1:05:36
into the wardrobe. Or the one I kind of that to me
1:05:42
I remember much less about. It's got the three comedies due
1:05:46
to three great actors Paul Baisley and Arabella Weir and
1:05:49
and Bill Bailey. I actually like the I like
1:05:53
anything that's a bit of a soppy ending.
1:05:54
So I like the oh is you know they've they've saved the voice
1:05:58
of Mr. Smith. I you know that's a it's a
1:06:03
fairly straightforward you know slightly cliched thing but I I I
1:06:08
thought it worked and and because it's got that Britain in
1:06:11
the 40s stiff up a little wartime stuff that all that all
1:06:14
that's all there do you know what I mean And and it and it
1:06:18
and the Amy scene was effective at the end but you know if we're
1:06:23
going to have ones that will fall by the wayside even though
1:06:26
I could cheat now and go well I would like to save it short and
1:06:31
it would not be saved anyway. I I would, I would actually
1:06:34
probably fight for A Christmas Carol.
1:06:36
More than so I would. I would have to now.
1:06:40
I accept the fate of the Doctor, the Widow and the wardrobe, even
1:06:45
though it has much to recommend it.
1:06:47
And I I enjoyed watching it this time around when in preparation
1:06:52
for this, it had lots of pleasant surprises for me.
1:06:55
But I can. I can see why it's not one that
1:06:57
people you know herald as as as a classic apart from Fraser
1:07:03
Gregory. But here's a man of questionable
1:07:05
taste. And what?
1:07:07
Thank God somebody said it. Fine, so in round one we have
1:07:12
actually only championed one and we've lost three, which is not
1:07:17
how I was expecting this to go at all.
1:07:20
So. Quite a shocking start, so let's
1:07:22
move on to the other four. In a way, this makes Round 2A
1:07:26
hell of a lot easier because we've got far less to choose
1:07:29
from in round two. So I am going to spin the Magic
1:07:34
Wheel again and I have the joy of presenting my second choice,
1:07:45
even though I have Christmas bells playing in my ear
1:07:48
incessantly. Now from this, thank goodness.
1:07:51
Turn that off. OK, so I'm going to pick as my
1:07:55
second one just to show that I love Steven Moffett and I felt
1:08:00
very dirty for being insulting of him in the previous round.
1:08:04
I'm going to pick Husbands of Riversong as my second choice,
1:08:09
which I've probably appreciated more over time.
1:08:12
I don't think it necessarily completely clicked for me first
1:08:17
time round apart from the ending which obviously will come to,
1:08:20
but it's one that's really grown on me over the years.
1:08:24
So first reason why I think Osmonds of Riversong really
1:08:28
works will be the comedy. So we talked previously about,
1:08:32
we've just talked about the Doctor, the Widow and the
1:08:34
wardrobe, and I was saying how I thought the comedy felt, felt
1:08:39
absolutely flat here. I think it absolutely sings and
1:08:43
I think probably the eight stories we've got here, this is
1:08:46
probably the most comedic and we've got Runaway Bride still to
1:08:49
talk about. But I think Husband's is
1:08:51
probably the most comedic of all of them.
1:08:54
Stephen Moffitt went on record many, many times and all the
1:08:56
press calls saying it was designed as a 1940 school ball
1:08:59
comedy. And I think you really get that
1:09:02
because you've got Alex Kingston and you've got Peter Capaldi.
1:09:07
Yes, you mixing other people. Obviously we start with Matt
1:09:09
Lucas, who I think is absolutely lovely in this.
1:09:13
I was so happy when he came back and obviously the character of
1:09:16
Nodal is significantly expanded even though we don't really know
1:09:20
who he is or what he is. But I think he's great in this.
1:09:23
We start up with the mix up of is this the Doctor, is it the
1:09:26
surgeon? Then we've got the mix up of
1:09:29
Who's River's husband, is it the Doctor?
1:09:31
It's a King Hyde flag. So you've got all these kind of
1:09:33
1940s mix up, confused identities, that kind of genre.
1:09:38
And I think the comedy absolutely sings.
1:09:41
The Doctor coming in to fix King Hydroflux whilst the 4 billion
1:09:45
people are watching him is beautiful.
1:09:48
We've got the lovely visual gags of the head and the great big
1:09:52
robot. How later on we've got one of my
1:09:55
favourite scenes. The Doctor going into the TARDIS
1:09:57
and doing, he gets his opportunity to do is this is
1:10:00
bigger on the inside than on the outside and he absolutely milks
1:10:04
it and he's glorious. The Doctor's back.
1:10:06
Having funnies, falling on his back in the snow, laughing his
1:10:09
head off. Very different to where we left
1:10:11
him in heaven's sense and hell bent.
1:10:15
And it's very refreshing for that.
1:10:17
I mean again, earlier we talked about was last Christmas
1:10:20
possibly too much tied into the continuity.
1:10:24
This almost feels like the show has been rebooted after after
1:10:27
hell Bent. We've got a slightly different
1:10:30
take on the Doctor and he's definitely embracing the comedy
1:10:34
a lot more. So comedy is my number one
1:10:36
reason. My second reason is the Doctor
1:10:38
and the River relationship. Obviously Matt Smith and Alex
1:10:43
Kingston were the mainstay of the Doctor River, but my God,
1:10:47
Peter Capaldo knocked it out the park far, far more.
1:10:50
And it's that tonal shift that we get about 40 minutes in
1:10:53
everything screwball, comedy. Laughs, laughs, laughs.
1:10:56
But we get to that minute where River is talking about the
1:10:59
Doctor and we get a tonal shift when she finally realises who is
1:11:03
the man stood behind her as she's threatened by the the
1:11:07
villains of the piece. And he just.
1:11:09
I mean Peter Capaldi is the master of the understatement and
1:11:12
underplaying and just that beautiful quiet.
1:11:15
Hello sweetie. The way he looks at that, Oh my
1:11:18
God, it breaks your heart. It's absolutely glorious.
1:11:21
There's so much charm and charisma on that screen.
1:11:24
And then of course we get to the final scenes on Darrellium and I
1:11:29
assume there was not a dry eye in the house.
1:11:32
There certainly wasn't here. Possibly.
1:11:33
Toby, I will go back to your earlier point.
1:11:36
I will concede it's probably more for the fans because I
1:11:41
think the non, we would probably say the rillion, what's the
1:11:45
point? I think the point is made, but I
1:11:47
think because we've been following all the way through
1:11:49
Riverside multiple times that her diary is filling up.
1:11:52
So obviously once her diary is full, that's the end of her
1:11:55
story. So I think the seeds are sown
1:11:57
for people who don't necessarily get it, but they're still quite
1:11:59
subtle. But for us that have been
1:12:01
watching that relationship blossom over over a couple of
1:12:05
years, I think the ending on Dorillium is is absolutely
1:12:09
perfect and beautiful and I'm so pleased they had 24 years
1:12:12
together. And finally, my final
1:12:15
recommendation for this is the look of it again right at the
1:12:18
beginning because we've got all that comedy.
1:12:21
I think this has got a really rich kind of comic book style.
1:12:25
I know we we've got again Mysterio still to talk about,
1:12:27
which is very heavily influenced by comic book, but this got real
1:12:31
comic book style. We've got that very Disney esque
1:12:34
town that we start in at the moment.
1:12:36
We move literally to a flying saucer.
1:12:38
I don't think, apart from Dalic invasion of Earth, we've ever
1:12:41
seen a flying saucer that looks quite like a flying saucer like
1:12:44
that. We've got Hydro Flax, we've got
1:12:47
the Harmony Shoal heads. It's lovely.
1:12:50
I mean, it just looks very, very comic book.
1:12:53
It's got great energetic direction from Douglas McKinnon
1:12:56
and it feels like a big Christmas blockbuster.
1:12:59
So yeah, the look of it would be my Third Point.
1:13:01
I was actually going to start off and not give you any of
1:13:04
these three reasons at all and just say my reason for
1:13:07
recommending this is that Ramon is in it and he's a very easy on
1:13:12
the eye. But I will.
1:13:14
I will avoid. I will rein that in and give
1:13:17
comedy the relationship and the look as my three main reasons
1:13:21
for recommending Husbands of River Song.
1:13:23
I. Don't think the details are
1:13:25
important at the end. Like you say, it's important to
1:13:28
the fans, that Doreillium stuff and all of that, that seeks into
1:13:31
the science of the library. It's a romance, isn't it?
1:13:33
So all that matters is the sentiment at the end and they
1:13:36
get their happy ending and that's what works there.
1:13:39
So it works on both levels. That works beautifully.
1:13:42
Dovetails into Series 4 and we get our happy ending as well.
1:13:46
I'll. Get my.
1:13:48
Oh, sorry I. Was gonna say my wife who is who
1:13:51
will who will dutifully sit and watch Doctor Who with me but
1:13:53
it's very much a not we she she absolutely loved this episode.
1:13:58
She and she loved that romance between between the doctor and
1:14:02
because you say you're given enough of it.
1:14:03
You just need to know that this is a story between two people
1:14:06
who have constantly been crossing paths and missing each
1:14:07
other and backwards and forwards and this is, this is when maybe
1:14:11
they realise it's the last time. You know.
1:14:12
I think you can almost worry about that too much as a fan
1:14:16
sometimes because you've you know you've had someone walking
1:14:20
on you watching attack of the sidemen or something like that.
1:14:23
But but you know, I think it works.
1:14:26
I think it works so well. And I mean for my part, yeah, I
1:14:30
mean I'm. I vote in favour of it.
1:14:32
I think Peter Capaldi's Hello Sweetie is probably one of my
1:14:34
favourite line deliveries in all of Doctor Who.
1:14:37
Although Catherine takes owner, I've done it again in the Star
1:14:39
Beast is challenging, is a recent challenge about that one.
1:14:44
But yeah, and I and I love that line about my diary's almost
1:14:48
full. Why is that sad?
1:14:49
Because the man who gave it to me would know how long a diary
1:14:51
you'd need. Of course he's got it.
1:14:54
Now that's where he gets the details right, isn't it?
1:14:56
It's a line like that, yeah. He's brilliant to all of that
1:15:04
stuff. He's very good at all of that
1:15:06
stuff and and a line here or an aphorism there that is very
1:15:11
profound and very special. He's winding up, he's winding
1:15:19
up, itching. Let your twitching, he's.
1:15:23
The Man of What have we done to you, Toba?
1:15:25
You were the man of optimism and good cheer.
1:15:27
We've taught him to hate. The Royal 4th.
1:15:29
No, it's it's not that I hate I and I'm.
1:15:33
I'm perfectly prepared to concede that I am wrong and and
1:15:41
I think this is OK because I see people getting crossed with
1:15:44
Doctor Who for not being how they see it.
1:15:47
I don't get cross with it. But for me one of the really key
1:15:54
things about Doctor Who was that it was the one programme on the
1:15:59
telly where you didn't feel that you fitted in because you
1:16:04
fulfilled the romantic ideal. Every single other programme
1:16:09
ends with the triumph of usually the guy and the girl.
1:16:14
Usually the guy. The girl certainly wasn't the
1:16:15
idea, snogging and that being the key to happiness.
1:16:20
And I always felt that that was not where my strengths as a
1:16:25
person lay as a kid. So there I was certainly not
1:16:29
very confident in all of that stuff, and I felt that Doctor
1:16:33
Who carefully avoided that. I mean there are actually very
1:16:36
few romances in Doctor Who, even amongst supporting characters.
1:16:40
You know, there's doesn't exactly Siddle between sizzle
1:16:42
between Frank and Maggie Harris does it and and and and you know
1:16:47
Petra and Greg and Inferno are kind of, you know, that unusual
1:16:51
thing of people that we see kind of fall in.
1:16:53
Like even when the companions fall in love, it's usually at
1:16:55
the very end of an episode and the end of their contract and
1:16:59
you know the. Hottest moment in Doctor Who is
1:17:01
those two Cavemen fighting in episode 4 of An Unearthly Child,
1:17:04
You. Would.
1:17:06
Yeah. Find them at hairycaveman.com.
1:17:10
It was all downhill from that point on.
1:17:15
Fire You'll be putting a fire emoji on Tsar, won't you?
1:17:21
Mind you, you're talking about Greg Sutton.
1:17:23
Well, yes, indeed, yes. Although I I I, yes, I think, I
1:17:28
think Derek Nirok was a bit of a handful so.
1:17:31
Is that right? In which way?
1:17:32
Well. Well.
1:17:36
Revelations for our panel shows today.
1:17:40
But so I want to send a note of caution because it to me it's a.
1:17:45
And as I say, I feel churlish because there are so many.
1:17:50
It's a really handsomely mounted production and I love the, I
1:17:54
love the comic energy of it. I think Greg Davis is having an
1:17:57
absolute ball and and that's the kind of Christmassy energy I
1:18:01
want from a Christmas episode. Absolutely.
1:18:04
Where you're kind of going. This is a bit larger than life,
1:18:06
but it it it works because it's Doctor Who and this is
1:18:10
Christmas, Doctor Who. And this is what we do.
1:18:12
We you know we're having this slightly bolder rendition of the
1:18:16
show but actually it's emotional core and fundamental core is
1:18:19
still real and that's that's when Doctor Who is at its best
1:18:21
and Moffat is so very good at at that doing real funny but also
1:18:27
actually quite profound and and moving.
1:18:29
I think we we he's too often easily dismissed as you know
1:18:32
glib sake comedy guy when he's he's actually his his humanity
1:18:36
is is is is is often humanity of great depth and and great he's
1:18:41
very perceptive about about people and about the the tragedy
1:18:46
of life but also the the the joy of it but but but every program
1:18:54
has the romantic ideal as as the end game and isn't it.
1:19:00
Isn't it important that we just have one show and it's the show
1:19:03
about robot men walking down the steps of Saint Paul's Cathedral.
1:19:08
The one about, you know, psychopathic telephone flexes,
1:19:12
The one about scary statues that goes.
1:19:19
There's all of this other stuff that is beyond the stuff that
1:19:22
everybody else does. One, the one argument I give to
1:19:26
that Toby is the speech that River gives.
1:19:30
So we talked about it earlier when she's confronted by Harmony
1:19:33
Shoal on the ship and she said, you know, the Doctor doesn't
1:19:36
love me, he doesn't believe and I can't remember the exact
1:19:40
wording, but basically love is too small a concept for the
1:19:43
Doctor. He's bigger than all of that.
1:19:46
And I think that kind to me that kind of because that's a very
1:19:49
important beat in the story and I think she kind of describes
1:19:53
that I should have written that quote down, but it's it's she's
1:19:57
really saying it. It isn't just your smoochy,
1:20:00
smoochy, traditional love. He.
1:20:03
He. Yeah.
1:20:03
I think exactly what you're saying, but I think it.
1:20:06
Does enable us to have our cake and eat it.
1:20:08
And I and I certainly will watch the story and and allow me to
1:20:12
make my own interpretation of it and shove the bits I don't like.
1:20:17
And that's very clever that he enables you to do that.
1:20:19
But I still am aware that I'm having to manually get the
1:20:23
forklift truck and lift those boxes and put them to one side
1:20:29
that everybody else will be will be going no, no, that's that.
1:20:33
You know they're they're in love.
1:20:34
They're doing that. They're doing the thing.
1:20:35
They're doing the thing. And I'm aware it's a totally
1:20:38
personal thing, but but I think it's a such a key thing about
1:20:42
Doctor Who that it does, it does make me sad that Doctor whoever
1:20:46
kind of went there when it had got away with never going there
1:20:51
for so long. And even though I think Alex
1:20:54
Kingston is Brett great and Riversong is a brilliant
1:20:56
character, I remember we say this in our podcast, don't we
1:20:59
Joey? I remember when she was a friend
1:21:01
of mine emailing me and saying well, will we see her again?
1:21:04
And for me, Riversong story was much better when we were told
1:21:10
about it that they had this great relationship, but that
1:21:13
we'd never see her again. We as a viewer, it was so
1:21:17
powerful to go, Oh my God, he's just met this amazing person
1:21:22
that we can tell from the acting of the two and the unsaid and
1:21:26
the unspoken. And I said to my friend, don't
1:21:28
be ridiculous, she's never going to come back.
1:21:30
That's the whole point of the story and then it showed what I
1:21:33
know and she she did and they filled it all in and brilliantly
1:21:37
and at times with great cleverness and and I remember
1:21:40
being in a pub when watching the 11th hour and her appeal
1:21:43
appearing in the the the post credits to show you know what's
1:21:46
coming next and got a massive cheer and I found myself
1:21:49
cheering as well and go yeah because we love Alex Kingston
1:21:51
and Steven Moffat writes for a brilliant and she plays the part
1:21:54
so well and she has a rapport with the doctors that's really
1:21:56
winning and it's but but it comes at a cost.
1:22:01
It's like when I eat a chocolate eclair I know it's a wonderful
1:22:04
thing. I know every single is
1:22:06
beautifully formed and it's absolutely to my taste, but then
1:22:10
it gets to my tummy and it and it and it fundamentally alters
1:22:15
my shape, structure and health. Wow.
1:22:20
So, Doctor, Who can damage your health?
1:22:22
Oh my God, we've all learned. That one I'm a I'm an old
1:22:28
romantic at heart, so I can absolutely buy into romance and
1:22:32
Doctor Who. I don't like it when it gets
1:22:34
sexual. So lions like the end of
1:22:37
nightmare and silver or whatever it is where he's going on about
1:22:39
Clara having too short of a skirt.
1:22:41
I'm just like we should never ever go there.
1:22:44
Or the end of Flesh and Stone where Amy's trying to get in bed
1:22:47
with the Doctor and fucking on her wedding night.
1:22:49
We should never go ever go there.
1:22:51
But the sort of the romance of this I do like riversong.
1:22:55
I think you can overdose on riversong.
1:22:57
And Series 6 did overdose on riversong.
1:23:00
And I'll stick to the side of it.
1:23:01
By the end of it, they started to pit sort of space out her
1:23:06
appearances after that, and she became a lot more palatable as a
1:23:09
result. Never bought into the Matt
1:23:11
Smith, Alex Kingston chemistry. Not once, but I really bought
1:23:16
into Peter Capaldi and Alex Kingston, and I think you said
1:23:19
it right. It's how Peter Capaldi looks at
1:23:21
her. He looks so not like she's most
1:23:23
desirable, but just like the person he wants to spend the
1:23:26
rest of his life with or 24 years.
1:23:29
So for that reason alone, I'm keeping it in I I I like the
1:23:32
romance and I absolutely buy their relationship in this.
1:23:36
So I think it's staying in. We've got a a clear word of
1:23:39
caution from Toby, but I think Michael and Joe are putting it
1:23:43
through so Husband stays in. We're down to the last three, so
1:23:51
let us turn that wheel. Stop singing songs.
1:23:57
I have there's no, there's none left.
1:23:59
Just Ding Dong oh Ding Dong. Hello.
1:24:02
Ding Dong. Hello.
1:24:05
Sorry, the quiz was still happening in the background.
1:24:10
OK, my choice. Excellent.
1:24:12
I I would rod rod. Serling Mode submitted for your
1:24:17
delegation. A portrait of a man.
1:24:20
A man who was a boy, a boy who had a cold, a boy who swallowed
1:24:25
a special gemstone and and became the hero of Doctor Who
1:24:30
and the return of Doctor Mysterio and I I like the return
1:24:36
of Doctor Mysterio, so I would like to put forward some.
1:24:40
I would like to put forward some defences of this episode and
1:24:43
myself. First point, you don't need to
1:24:46
defend it, celebrate it. Celebrate it.
1:24:50
Celebrating the episode, Defending my choice to celebrate
1:24:54
it. It's got mentioned before, so I
1:24:59
think. I think I get the impression
1:25:00
that part of the part of the received wisdom about the return
1:25:06
of Doctor Mysterio is that it's the one.
1:25:08
It's the one that forced Chris Chibnall to start doing New
1:25:11
Year's specials because they'd run out of things to say about
1:25:14
Christmas. And I don't think that's true.
1:25:16
I just think the problem is that too many people who watch this
1:25:19
were born this side of the Millennium and are from America
1:25:22
And we're not born in the latter in the UK in the latter half of
1:25:26
the 20th century and therefore do not associate Hollywood
1:25:30
blockbusters with 10:00 AM on the 29th of December.
1:25:35
Which is really the which is really the only natural time to
1:25:38
watch Superman 3 or or the black hole or something like that.
1:25:43
I refuse to believe that any human being has watched young
1:25:46
Sherlock Holmes when it's dark outside.
1:25:48
And I think that the return of doctoral Serie perfectly
1:25:52
captures a very specific memory of Christmas, which is that it's
1:25:58
where the big huge blockbusters are just giving out.
1:26:01
Like like there's so many sweets in the jar in the quality St.
1:26:05
like oh go on have a have a Richard, Donna, Superman 5 days
1:26:09
in. Why not?
1:26:10
This would be a whole trip to the cinema or any other time of
1:26:12
the year. So it's that very particular
1:26:15
Christmas memory and in some ways that's more important and
1:26:18
that's more meaningful than just dressing up and going, oh,
1:26:22
Santa's a robot not to pre empt discussions of a beloved classic
1:26:25
elsewhere in the episode. It's not just pointing at all of
1:26:29
the things that that Christmas is about.
1:26:30
And that's absolutely fine. It's pointing to the things that
1:26:33
that actually we all associate with Christmas and we don't
1:26:35
realize it. If you say, you know, he, as
1:26:38
Toby said, Steve Moffat is very good at noticing those things
1:26:40
about people and about shared experience that we don't
1:26:42
necessarily notice ourselves. I think the term Doctor Mysterio
1:26:45
gets that gets that perfectly, you know Doctor Who does
1:26:48
superhero movies. Yeah.
1:26:50
There's the danger that it can start to get a bit.
1:26:52
You remember at the end of that Simpsons clip show where they
1:26:54
go, hey, has Bard ever. What if Marger was a robot?
1:26:56
Has Bud ever owned? It's like, hey, it's Doctor Who
1:26:59
ever done a superhero. The carcass, I guess.
1:27:03
Yeah, But you know, but but he goes, no, actually, there is a
1:27:07
way of doing this. There is already an existing
1:27:09
language, and it's always with British television.
1:27:11
We don't have superheroes. Superheroes don't exist in
1:27:13
Britain. Whenever they go Marvel.
1:27:15
Oh, actually, do you know what? There's Captain Britain or
1:27:17
there's Union Jacket. Yeah, but not really.
1:27:19
Not really it's it's not that's that's not our image of
1:27:22
ourselves in 191319141950. You know we have we have Doctor
1:27:27
Who we have a madman who flies around in a box and that
1:27:29
collision of him and Wham the American stereotype the the
1:27:32
language for that in Britain is an American import.
1:27:35
It is watching it on your television.
1:27:37
And also it's that you know, I'm, you know, when I when I was
1:27:42
a kid, not to, not to, not to age myself down here, but you
1:27:46
know, I used to love my main memory of Superman is actually
1:27:51
the the Lewis and Clark. The New Adventures of Superman,
1:27:54
which is the New Adventures of Superman, is also over here.
1:27:56
Because we're not. Until they got married.
1:27:58
Then it got a bit boring. Yeah, but what that did was that
1:28:02
it it was. It's probably the closest that
1:28:04
any that I'm aware of that any version of Superman has got to
1:28:07
redoing the Richard Donna version in a meaningful way
1:28:09
because it realizes that actually, what's great about
1:28:12
those films is not everyone punching, everyone flying
1:28:14
around, you know, Oh, my favorite bit of Superman is the
1:28:16
bit where he fights himself in a junkyard.
1:28:18
No, it isn't. It's when he takes it.
1:28:20
It's when they have the lovely dinner.
1:28:21
It's when they go flying. It's the romance of it.
1:28:24
It's the romance of superheroes that that idea that the
1:28:26
superhero is not troubled. Superheroes can be good.
1:28:30
I read Watchmen, I thought it was good.
1:28:33
But, you know, but the thing about Superman is that he's, you
1:28:36
know, he he who's grown up a human, right?
1:28:39
You know, there's probably something a little bit
1:28:40
conservative about assuming that you'd actually a little bit Tory
1:28:42
about assuming that you'd actually still have more in
1:28:45
common with his Cryptonian heritage than than having been
1:28:48
brought up in the US if he's a human with incredible powers.
1:28:51
And I think, I think this really nails that.
1:28:54
And it's a very Christmassy thing to have it on television
1:28:57
right here and now. And it you know it it it, it
1:29:00
achieves it on ATV scale by by emphasizing, you know, the charm
1:29:04
and the romance of superheroes, which when we are absolutely
1:29:07
inundated with superheroes and even someone who quite likes a
1:29:10
lot of that stuff, there's too much of it and too much of it is
1:29:12
bad. And so little of it actually
1:29:14
remembers that bit of superheroes.
1:29:15
That's really good and I liked it because it reminded me of
1:29:20
playing with my Lego when with chilblains and you know, having
1:29:25
a lovely time at Christmas and I won't be at it.
1:29:30
Wow, a strong defence. I'm going to agree with you,
1:29:33
Michael. Actually, I love the return of
1:29:35
Doctor Mysterio. I think it's excellent.
1:29:38
I think you're absolutely right. It's a memory of superhero
1:29:41
films. Even some of us that are a
1:29:42
little bit older than you have a love of superheroes and remember
1:29:46
going to the cinema to see Superman the movie first time
1:29:49
round. But what I think this does
1:29:52
cleverly is, yes, it's Doctor Who dressed up as superhero, but
1:29:55
it doesn't do the superhero cliches.
1:29:57
We haven't got a super villain, we haven't got the CGI villain
1:30:03
and it's going to end up in a big punch up between 2 blobs of
1:30:07
CGI. We avoid all of that.
1:30:09
We focus more, as you rightly said, on the love story between
1:30:12
Grant and Lucy, and that's where the heart is.
1:30:16
The superhero bit is really just a little bit of dressing around
1:30:19
the side. In a way, this is almost going
1:30:21
back to Steven Moffitt's screwball comedies.
1:30:23
It's almost a little bit again, doing the kind of mistaken
1:30:26
identities and mix up between and it focuses far more on that
1:30:30
than anything else today. It doesn't steal from the
1:30:32
superhero genre much beyond that.
1:30:36
And I think it's better for it because if we'd had a, you know,
1:30:39
a super villain in in Doctor Who, I think that clash might
1:30:43
have been a step too far. So I think we focus on the right
1:30:46
elements of superheroes and yeah, I love it.
1:30:49
I agree with that cold opening. It's absolutely glorious to On
1:30:53
you Joe, for being negative about children actors in Steven
1:30:57
Moffitt's screen. I think that child actor in the
1:31:00
opening cold open of Doctor Mysterio is absolutely spot on.
1:31:04
Perfect. A diamond in the rough rod.
1:31:09
OK, but there are some. There are some out there, and he
1:31:12
is one of them. I think it's a clever plot.
1:31:15
I bounce along. It's full of heart and charm.
1:31:18
Yeah, I love it. So it's standing for me.
1:31:22
I disagree, but I'm keeping it in because your argument was so
1:31:26
compelling and I just love listening to you.
1:31:29
And I was like, yeah, if I was you, I would absolutely keep
1:31:31
this in for all those reasons. I don't like the romance because
1:31:34
I think she's overbearing and he's too meek.
1:31:37
And I actually think that's going to turn out to be a very
1:31:39
toxic relationship. And they'll be on the front
1:31:41
cover of take a Break in a few years time or whatever the
1:31:43
American equivalent is. I think the aliens appeal their
1:31:47
heads open. I mean, how could you possibly
1:31:49
make that a a nondescript alien? There's nothing to them at all.
1:31:54
Apart from the fact one till the previous year.
1:31:56
Only. Show.
1:31:57
They were pretty boring that year as well.
1:31:59
I can tell you now, if I had seen this when I was 8 years
1:32:01
old, that would be like the bit in Superman 3 where the circuits
1:32:05
come over the lady's face and would have terrified the living
1:32:08
bejesus at me in the best possible way for the next.
1:32:11
It's the sound effects, the play with the peel back and the bits
1:32:14
of Duncan Goo. It's, yeah, it's it's quite
1:32:16
graphic for Christmas Day. And, and for entirely subjective
1:32:20
reasons, I don't like superhero movies, so this was never really
1:32:24
going to shine with me because that's not what I would choose
1:32:26
to watch. I like Doctor Who.
1:32:28
I don't watch, you know, Marvel movies, things like that.
1:32:32
And that bloody squeezy toy I've never wanted to leap in and
1:32:36
machine gun something so much. Did you not go and buy one,
1:32:40
Jack? Could you buy them?
1:32:42
Or Lethal Edge? Anyway, I'm keeping it in,
1:32:45
though, because that was a compelling argument.
1:32:48
Toby. Is it?
1:32:50
Isn't it the longest cold opening in all of Doctor Who as
1:32:52
well? It's about 130 years long it.
1:32:57
Feels. Like I think you'll find it's
1:32:59
129. But it's about 8:00 or 9
1:33:02
minutes, and I always like something that's that's an
1:33:05
anomaly, an anomaly. That's something that would be
1:33:07
nice to put in a DVD note. I I I too would keep it.
1:33:13
And I think perversely, I think one of the reasons I like it is
1:33:17
because it's not what I would want to expect of a Christmas
1:33:21
special. I'm not particularly a superhero
1:33:23
guy. I mean I will watch the Marvel
1:33:25
films just to just you know so that I can I can keep up when
1:33:29
I'm hanging out with the cool kids in Marvel fauna and you
1:33:35
know I'm I'm delighted there's more fantasy around than there
1:33:38
was when I was a wee lad and all that but and I'm not
1:33:41
particularly drawn to American stuff either but like any great
1:33:45
self loathing Doctor Who fan and and you said Joe she's
1:33:51
overbearing and he's too meek. It's like, my God, Marley's
1:33:57
ghost has brought the specter of relationship knocking on my
1:34:00
window. Apologies.
1:34:03
No, it's. I mean, it could be the first
1:34:06
line of my obituary but but actually what I like about it is
1:34:12
all the things that I normally wouldn't like or wouldn't go
1:34:16
for, wouldn't expect from Christmas.
1:34:17
We've, we've talked a lot about, you know, the comfort of the the
1:34:21
the, the dressing gowns of the snow and the chocolate box and
1:34:24
all of that that a Christmas special can bring.
1:34:27
The fact that they rather boldly went Well, we've kind of done,
1:34:31
you know we've done the Poseidon eventually done the really
1:34:33
Christmas, the Christmas Killer Christmas trees.
1:34:35
We've done A Christmas Carol. We've done the romantic you
1:34:38
know. OK well, let's go a bit left
1:34:40
field and do and I think you summed up brilliantly, Michael
1:34:43
that you know those sorts of films that you have on around
1:34:46
Christmas time but that aren't necessarily the Doctor Who he
1:34:48
wants to go well let's do Doctor Who does one of those And I go
1:34:51
oh, I'm not sure what I think of.
1:34:53
Oh, OK no. Because also because it kind of
1:34:56
bestows something upon my little show when one it's got America
1:35:00
in it because America was always exciting and over there and
1:35:03
where are the exciting things happened And superheroes because
1:35:06
that was what you know that was what normal you know kids like
1:35:10
that was what that was a bit more mainstream that you know
1:35:12
the superhero things were big and cinematic rather than small
1:35:15
and and televisual. Although I know there was a
1:35:17
spider man TV series and stuff but are you still associated it
1:35:20
with it being sort of one step removed from what we would
1:35:23
expect of you know humble British multi camera TV that we
1:35:27
grew up with. So I I like all of that sort of
1:35:30
stuff our our our show suddenly being able to do those things.
1:35:34
You know my all modern iterations of the show are still
1:35:38
sort of I'm I'm always he's impressed when they when they go
1:35:40
somewhere and you go God, well they wouldn't have been able to
1:35:42
do that in 1988. You know I rather that that in
1:35:45
itself is is special in a in a in a different way from how snow
1:35:50
and you know killer Christmas iconography is.
1:35:54
So because of that because I think it's so it makes its job a
1:35:56
little harder and because it is done well and I do like the
1:36:03
line, I'm the babysitter. I think that's very funny.
1:36:08
I I I would, I would vote to keep it as well because I think
1:36:12
it has a harder job and it succeeds in doing something that
1:36:17
is perhaps one step removed from what you'd expect from Christmas
1:36:21
and and yet and yet works as a Christmas episode so.
1:36:25
Refreshing the Capable is having fun again as well, isn't it?
1:36:28
It's the second after season 9 which gets very dark and very
1:36:32
heavy towards the end. I'd have two on the bounce where
1:36:34
he's having fun. Yeah.
1:36:37
And shout out for the moment was mentioned earlier that you know
1:36:39
about when they actually managed to make the Doctor feel alien
1:36:42
through him not just getting obvious things, the bit where
1:36:44
he's look, he's reading the Superman comic and he goes Clark
1:36:48
Kent and Superman and. He draws the.
1:36:53
Class look and I I love that Stephen Moffett said that he
1:36:56
he's he said he's nothing of a geek that the when they the
1:36:59
first comic they got as a prop for that was an issue where Lois
1:37:03
Lane from sometime in Lois Lane already knew that Clark it was
1:37:06
Superman. He's like, no, we can't have
1:37:08
that because the joke doesn't work if Lois Lane knows he's
1:37:10
Superman, go and find an older one where she doesn't know that
1:37:13
yet. I love that bit in the middle
1:37:15
where it's all kind of down. There's aliens about.
1:37:18
Is Espinage happening? I think he's just eating ice
1:37:20
cream, isn't he? He's just sort of happened.
1:37:22
He's eating sushi, sushi. He's eating and just like taking
1:37:25
it all in and having a great time.
1:37:27
You remember that scene, I mean the the nerve of Steven Moffat
1:37:31
at the end of Last Christmas when he had shown to wake up and
1:37:34
have that list of Christmas movies that had directly
1:37:36
influenced the episode that we've just watched.
1:37:39
I mean, I've that's that's Bobsy again.
1:37:43
I think that's an explicit version.
1:37:44
This is a more implicit version of doing the same thing, isn't
1:37:47
it? Like you said of of the holiday
1:37:49
Christmas movie. Do you know what I want?
1:37:51
I want to watch it again. Now I'm.
1:37:53
I'm convinced. Oh, OK.
1:37:56
So. Strong concern, that excellent
1:37:58
for Doctor Mysterio. So we're down to the last two.
1:38:00
So we've got strangely, we've got the two David Tennant's
1:38:03
left. Oh no, we've ruled out next
1:38:05
Doctor. Obviously we've got Runaway
1:38:06
Bride and Voyage of the Damned left.
1:38:08
So let's see who's next on The Wheel of Fortune.
1:38:13
And it's spinning around. Wonderful Christmas time.
1:38:18
And it's Toby. It's Toby.
1:38:22
What are you going to leave me, Toby?
1:38:24
Well, Joey, in the interest of Christmas spirit, which one
1:38:28
would you like me to do? Because I'm happy to do either
1:38:31
of these. I'd like to do The Runaway
1:38:32
Bride, please. You would like to do the
1:38:34
runaway? Well, then I will.
1:38:36
Well, then I can be mercifully briefed because I've.
1:38:39
I've already alluded to what I enjoy about Voyage of the Dam.
1:38:45
I mean it's it's doctor at, it's most triumphant.
1:38:50
Yeah. It's it's not necessarily the
1:38:52
most watertight story. There are moments that I don't
1:38:56
think quite work. But it is bold.
1:39:01
It is confident it and and and it absolutely does its job of
1:39:08
going hello general public. You know that show.
1:39:11
It's bloody good. There's this famous person in
1:39:14
it. You can.
1:39:15
You can just some of you will watch it and spend the whole of
1:39:18
Christmas and spend the whole running time talking all the way
1:39:22
through it. Which is why houses need to have
1:39:24
more than one television in so that people actually watch stuff
1:39:27
and appreciate creativity and never can go in and watch it
1:39:30
without Uncle Bob going. Well, why did they do that?
1:39:32
The reason they did that, Uncle Bob was explained in the
1:39:34
previously you shut the fuck up for 5 minutes, you might.
1:39:39
Actually love everyone's family. And I don't care if she looks
1:39:46
like your next door neighbour, your neighbour, but that's.
1:39:51
Are you OK? We all have a universe, if I
1:39:54
remember theories to face. But if I had to choose.
1:39:59
So if I choose three things, well, one, the first thing is
1:40:03
the Poseidon Adventure vibe. I love a disaster movie.
1:40:07
I love stories that have a disparate group of characters
1:40:11
who learn to bond. But have their their factions
1:40:15
and their fractiousness, but learn something about each
1:40:18
other, even if it's painted a broad strokes that give you a
1:40:20
lump in the throat moment, that give you a punch in the air
1:40:23
moment and that give you a moment when you can be sad that
1:40:26
they die or triumph and that they survive.
1:40:28
And even within that, Moffat subverts that by making Gray
1:40:31
O'Brien being one of the few survivors when he's an obvious
1:40:34
shit and and and and so he you know, he he it's not as cozy as
1:40:41
sometimes those things might be in our heads.
1:40:43
Although actually the Poseidon Adventure is not that cozy.
1:40:45
I I mean, I it's very hard. I I remember when I watched it
1:40:49
again one Christmas being surprised that Gene Hackman died
1:40:52
because I I was convinced that the previous time I'd seen it he
1:40:55
hadn't. He was the hero.
1:40:57
And I'd got into my head that that didn't because I was so you
1:40:59
know I was young and it was it was actually quite a moment of
1:41:02
of of development for me as a as a viewer of things.
1:41:05
Oh, they can do that to the main guy, even though I'd seen it
1:41:09
before. Bizarrely, I I, you know, rubbed
1:41:12
that out of my mind. So I love, I love that whole
1:41:18
type of story and having it in Doctor Who on Christmas Day is a
1:41:23
fantastic idea and works really, really well.
1:41:30
The second thing I like about it is I I do like Russell T Davis
1:41:39
is very good at well, so is Moffat.
1:41:41
Actually I love a a good running gag and the running gag about
1:41:45
Mr. Copper getting everything wrong about humanity and
1:41:51
Christmas is really really funny and and and again it gives it
1:41:55
that lightness that you require And he's such a likable
1:41:58
character and and the fact that you know his story ends in the
1:42:01
way that it does is rather sweet and beautiful and and and and
1:42:06
helps capture the Christmas spirit that that threatens to be
1:42:09
diluted by the fact that you know Kylie has to die.
1:42:12
And and and as we lose so many lives.
1:42:15
The fact that this this such likable character you know gets
1:42:20
gets to scamper off into the falling snow although it's not
1:42:24
snow because it never is in a Russell T Davis Christmas.
1:42:27
And I love that joke as well. It's a.
1:42:28
Running joke, yeah. I love that running joke.
1:42:33
And the third thing I think is that come on, yeah, this this
1:42:40
does, this does appeal up screen and all.
1:42:43
Doctor Who getting one of the biggest stars in the world.
1:42:48
Kylie Minogue, who also I know has an extra cachet for my
1:42:53
friends who would admire musical theatre and and and rimming and.
1:43:03
Who told you? Not necessarily in that order.
1:43:07
That's. The name of the podcast.
1:43:10
We've. Got it?
1:43:12
Perfect. It's not too late.
1:43:13
You know. S hasn't gone out yet strictly.
1:43:16
Strictly musical theatre and rimming.
1:43:20
No, people won't come on. And seeing Kylie on the front
1:43:24
cover of Doctor Magazine with a Dalek and again, it being a
1:43:28
thing, it was a headline grabber.
1:43:30
And you know, she's a she's a, she's a a a good actress.
1:43:33
She's not. She's not generic, just a
1:43:35
gimmick. She has a background in acting,
1:43:37
but she represents so much else and so much outside of Doctor
1:43:40
Who and yet seems perfect for Doctor Who without me ever
1:43:44
thinking. What Doctor Who really needs is
1:43:46
for Kylie Minogue to be in it. But then as soon as you see the
1:43:49
name Kylie Minogue in the Doctor Who title sequence, you go, oh,
1:43:52
this is really, really special. And it's no wonder it got such
1:43:59
good viewing figures. It's got no, it's no wonder that
1:44:02
Doctor seemed Doctor Who seemed invincible at that time.
1:44:06
And and actually with all the hype and everyone watching,
1:44:10
watching it, knowing that everybody else was watching, it
1:44:13
was never a moment I thought, oh, the people watching this,
1:44:17
this, this is not being I'm not being catered for.
1:44:22
This felt to me. It was bold.
1:44:24
It was innovative, it was Doctor Who, but it was Doctor Who
1:44:27
perhaps as as people imagined it might be without actually
1:44:33
sacrificing the core of what it means to be Doctor Who as well.
1:44:37
So I yeah, I think it's big, bold, Jolly Russell T Davis,
1:44:41
100% proof Doctor Who and it is perfect for the job that it is
1:44:47
trying to do, which is say to everybody at Christmas Day, this
1:44:50
show Sparkles. It still works.
1:44:54
Now, you know, you say about Carly's name bringing in
1:44:56
viewers. I heard a couple of people at
1:44:59
work saying to me, oh, you're going to watch Doctor Who at the
1:45:01
weekend. I've not heard Doctor Who
1:45:02
mentioned for years at work. And they went, well, yeah, David
1:45:06
Tennant's in it. Of course I'm going to watch it.
1:45:09
So David Tennant is the name now that's drawing people back to
1:45:12
the show. Yeah, it's it's it's a it's a
1:45:14
savvy move, probably. It's probably his marketing
1:45:17
triumph, isn't it? Kylie Minogue.
1:45:20
Yeah, well I mean he's just so so good at all of that.
1:45:24
And you know you get you get the extra besides the storytelling
1:45:30
and and all of the the the stuff that is is put on the screen.
1:45:34
It's the stuff off screen that this master puppeteer of
1:45:38
television you know who has who seems to somehow get.
1:45:44
But because he writes quite niche stuff as well, he writes
1:45:47
Channel 4 dramas about AIDS and yet when he's when he's doing
1:45:50
Doctor Who he somehow knows how to reel in the public who are
1:45:56
naturally sceptical about something that's can be child
1:46:01
seen as kids stuff and is also science fiction which is a genre
1:46:04
that is seen for geeks. And yet he places it smack on
1:46:08
your sofa in front of your fire Exactly when you you know when
1:46:12
you think you should be watching it and is, is and and you need
1:46:16
that as well as whatever's going on on screen.
1:46:19
But this is one of those occasions where as well what's
1:46:22
going on on screen, screen is in perfect synthesis, I think, to
1:46:26
the vibe that he's putting out. And you've got such a disparate
1:46:29
range of characters in there, and they've got to be fairly
1:46:31
broad, because you're right, it's Towering Inferno, it's
1:46:34
Poseidon Adventure. So in some ways they're fairly
1:46:37
broad, but I think he imbues each one with just enough
1:46:41
reality so that you believe them.
1:46:44
You've got the the Van Hoffs and their relationship, The fact
1:46:48
that she spent all the money buying.
1:46:50
She's she's bankrupted them buying tickets to work.
1:46:54
Isn't. It and you just believe.
1:46:55
Them the fact he laughs at that you haven't got that awful
1:46:58
stereotype of you know they're going to fall out over that the
1:47:01
husband laughs and he embraces that that's lovely and you feel
1:47:04
for them and you know Banner Cafe laughter is a a Cyborg and
1:47:08
he's got they've now cyborgs have now got civil rights which
1:47:11
I thought this is only just two years after civil partnership
1:47:14
came in. So, you know, that's a nice
1:47:16
little tweet. And again, it kind of humanizes
1:47:20
Banacat Banacafalata. So you've got all these little
1:47:24
pieces. I mean, Toby, you mentioned,
1:47:26
Yeah, Mr. Copper and his dodgy degree from Mrs. Golightly's
1:47:29
Happy Travelling University and dry cleaners.
1:47:32
I mean, it's just, it's lovely, isn't it?
1:47:34
It's lovely stuff. So yeah, I'm not going to argue
1:47:36
with you. It's definitely in for me.
1:47:38
They eat the Turkey people, I believe.
1:47:41
They do, and then they all start boxing.
1:47:45
You know what? I'll keep it in for no other
1:47:47
reason than I like the fact that he always gives his Christmas
1:47:50
specials a bit of a bite. So like Harriet Jones at the end
1:47:53
of Christmas Invasion, I'll get on sort of runaway bride.
1:47:57
And in this, the people you expect to survive this story
1:48:01
don't, and the people you wouldn't want to survive this
1:48:04
story do. And I left feeling a bit
1:48:07
uncomfortable. And I like that with TV.
1:48:08
It's a nice big it's a bit of fluff, it's really entertaining
1:48:11
to watch and it's a little bit discomforting as well.
1:48:14
It's a good mix. They're staying for me.
1:48:17
Yeah because he he's clever because you know that the whole
1:48:19
thing of saving killing Kylie and saving Rrixton Slade Rrixton
1:48:23
Slade. That's that's that's someone who
1:48:27
was that. Well I was thinking that was
1:48:29
someone who was you know nurtured on you know 80s dynasty
1:48:32
and Dallas villain businessman names.
1:48:34
But but you know the element of that is also it does make you
1:48:36
questions off because you know, yeah Brixton is not a nice
1:48:40
character. He's an absolute bastard but
1:48:42
he's also probably not worthy of death.
1:48:44
You know he's he's a he's a nasty businessman but you know
1:48:47
he isn't Max Capricorn who's going to blow up southern
1:48:51
England, you know for insurance job it you know so that he he
1:48:56
does. Yeah, you're right that he, he
1:48:57
introduces those Shades of Grey for one to a better term.
1:49:01
But that that questioning of the assumptions, I mean, I'll be
1:49:03
honest with you, when I was preparing, I was, I was sort of
1:49:06
finding myself coming up with reasons that I didn't like
1:49:09
Voyage of the damned. I was you know, thinking of
1:49:11
things like, you know, it has aged a bit poorly.
1:49:15
You know, if you look at it now, especially versus, you know,
1:49:17
with the Disney money, it is all very obviously, you know,
1:49:21
dressed up locations and sets. But you know, I realise this was
1:49:24
the first episode and if we could throw things out for
1:49:26
having aged poorly, we might undermine the entire format.
1:49:31
You wait till we get to the arc. Oh, don't trust the slaves and
1:49:39
the the cutesy little cameo from the from the queen.
1:49:42
I just thought oh God, alive. You know that's you're two
1:49:45
you're 2 inches away from, you know, Paddington, guiding David
1:49:48
Tennant through a second regeneration at that stage.
1:49:50
But that's hilarious, The pink. Slaves David Tennant saves the
1:49:53
Queen on Christmas Day. What more do you need?
1:49:57
No, Brexit. Brexit happened between then and
1:49:59
now, and we elected a Conservative government, so it
1:50:02
lands differently in the book there.
1:50:05
Makes it even more important to watch fun bits of fluff like
1:50:07
this, the world we're living in now.
1:50:09
Well, exactly. I mean, you know, of course the
1:50:11
Queen has no past. So we can say all right, I
1:50:14
guess, But, you know, having having listened to you, you're
1:50:19
right. It is, you know, Toby, you're
1:50:21
absolutely right. It this is, this is, this is,
1:50:24
you know your this is the person you love.
1:50:27
You've got an absolute perfect display at the wedding for all
1:50:29
of your friends or relatives. You've never met them before.
1:50:31
You know there is there is no Doctor Who being so open and
1:50:35
embracing and giving what people on Christmas Day want because
1:50:38
you know obviously viewing habits have changed massively
1:50:40
even since this this went out, this 2007, you know you did
1:50:45
still sit down and just watch TV through for the day right.
1:50:48
So this had to sit between. I was going to say this has to
1:50:51
sit between between strictly whatever and it'd still be sat
1:50:54
between the same things now because that's the TV scheduling
1:50:56
works in the 21st century. But you know it has to appeal to
1:50:58
people while at the same time never compromising.
1:51:00
It doesn't. This is this is it saying, This
1:51:03
is why Doctor Who is really good.
1:51:05
Not Doctor Who pretending to be something else for a little bit
1:51:07
so that you don't get embarrassed and that you know
1:51:12
all of this and we've not even mentioned Bernard Cribbins, you
1:51:14
know this is all of this. And Cribbins too.
1:51:17
That's that should be enough. He's delightful.
1:51:21
And yeah he's because he became such a big thing.
1:51:23
It can catch you off guard how little he's actually in it.
1:51:25
But no wonder they brought him back because he it's a he's an
1:51:28
utter delight. And at the time it almost felt
1:51:32
like a little kiss to the past. You know because he'd been in
1:51:34
Dali invasion. I thought oh it'd be lovely to
1:51:36
get him back in but oh you know what, The birth of such an
1:51:38
important bit of of Doctor Who as well in that in that one
1:51:42
little bit. Now I'm I'm keeping it.
1:51:44
And how have how have none of us mentioned the homages to robots
1:51:47
of death, which are fairly blatant in a few places, but you
1:51:52
know. Who knows what people?
1:51:54
Steal. Steal from the best.
1:51:55
You know, that sequence where they're sort of throwing the
1:51:57
Halos and they're bashing them with the pipes, all of that?
1:52:00
How was that not made into some kind of a game, you know, and
1:52:03
it's right for marketing that. Well, I'll do it anyway.
1:52:06
You know, when I'm watching the episode, the last thing I'll say
1:52:09
about this one is that the harshest critic of television of
1:52:13
all time is my mother, who was displeased by pretty much
1:52:16
everything. And when this was on, she phoned
1:52:20
me up afterwards and said, that's the most fun I've had
1:52:23
watching television all year. So that was my that was like my
1:52:26
biggest win, you know? Should we just turn this podcast
1:52:29
off now and just leave the? Only other time she phoned me up
1:52:32
about Doctor Who was at the end of doomsday in tears going what
1:52:37
have you done to me? Like she was devastated.
1:52:40
But I actually love this episode.
1:52:41
It's a win. It's a win for Voyager.
1:52:43
Win. It's a win.
1:52:44
Win. Win.
1:52:45
It's funny though, Carly Malone being on this just to sign up if
1:52:47
we move on, because obviously I think her connection was via
1:52:49
tour manager, wasn't it? Who was a big Doctor Who fan?
1:52:53
And a few years before this, before Doctor Who came back,
1:52:56
there was a photo doing the rounds of her.
1:52:57
You've seen the one? Camera obscura.
1:52:59
With camera, the BBC novel Camera Obscura.
1:53:02
And I remember when that was first circulated and someone on
1:53:05
one of the forums, you know, very, very carefully explaining
1:53:09
with like highlights and Ryan's what this is not real.
1:53:11
This is in Photoshop so that you can tell this is obviously look
1:53:14
this bit's blurred, there's too much can.
1:53:15
I just guess were those comments in big capital letters by the
1:53:18
way? No, they.
1:53:21
Were. Petrifyingly small font.
1:53:24
And anyway, that that just taught me everything I need to
1:53:28
know about Internet discourse. Which is it?
1:53:31
Was it was real? Given the fact that you know
1:53:34
those books, those 8th Doctor books, were being shovelled into
1:53:36
a furnace in an orphanage overseas somewhere, you know
1:53:39
that's a fact. I don't think you know.
1:53:41
One of the thousand people that were reading those books at the
1:53:44
time was Kylie Minogue. I believe it was on the sofa but
1:53:47
I think it was a a manager, whoever it was reading that.
1:53:50
Is that tragic or heart warming that most of them went to the
1:53:53
furnace, but one of them got to tour the world with Kylie?
1:53:55
Minogue and a great book as well.
1:53:59
Right, Joe, we're on to the last in round one.
1:54:03
We're on to the run. What could it be?
1:54:05
It could be the runaway. Bride, do you know?
1:54:07
He said to me, we'll, I reckon these episodes will probably
1:54:10
turn out to be about 2-2 hours long.
1:54:12
We're at 2 hours now, you know. I know we.
1:54:14
Round two we're going to make very quick.
1:54:19
OK, we'll run for the hills. It's the end of civilization.
1:54:22
Catherine Tate has been cast in Doctor Who.
1:54:26
The show will never be the same again in a very positive way.
1:54:29
I've chosen 3 scenes for the one I brought and they're all very
1:54:33
important Donna scenes. The first one is the first point
1:54:38
in the story where Donna trusts the Doctor, so it's the taxi
1:54:41
sequence with the TARDIS flying in, the kids watching the whole
1:54:45
thing, just like the kids at home watching the programme.
1:54:48
Just everything about that sequence.
1:54:50
I think that sequence was screened at one of the musical
1:54:54
events before The Runaway Bride went out, and then no wonder
1:54:57
everybody watched it after that. I mean, is that just one of the
1:55:00
funnest scenes in Doctor Whoever?
1:55:02
It's we've never seen the TARDIS used like that as a as a
1:55:06
physical prop in an action sequence like that before.
1:55:09
It's just everything about it, the direction of it, the
1:55:11
performances. Marigold's music is awesome in
1:55:15
that scene as well. But most importantly it is the
1:55:18
point where Donna stops shouting and holds her hands out and and
1:55:22
so this is the point where we're like, OK, there is more to this
1:55:24
character than meets the eye from the sort of screeching
1:55:28
pantomime Harriton of the first couple of scenes.
1:55:30
Because even I, I love Catherine Taylor and I love Donna.
1:55:33
I watch those first couple of scenes and I was like.
1:55:35
Oh. Dear is, are we doing this for a
1:55:37
whole episode? The second scene, which is I
1:55:41
genuinely think it's one of the most beautiful scenes in the
1:55:44
whole of Doctor Who. It's the formation of the Earth
1:55:47
in the TARDIS and it's the performances of Catherine Tay,
1:55:51
who's just had devastating news that her fiance has been having
1:55:56
a relationship with an enormous red spider for a little while
1:56:00
now and mocks her for the for the latest flavour, Pringle.
1:56:04
It's just beautiful. Everything in that scene is just
1:56:07
beautiful. The special effects are
1:56:08
beautiful, but it's Donna seeing the wonder of the universe for
1:56:13
the first time and again, Catherine Tate just aces it.
1:56:16
She's absolutely brilliant. And the third scene is, I never,
1:56:23
ever thought we will see quite so many children dying on
1:56:26
Christmas Day. But here we are as Russ T Davis,
1:56:29
of course, what do you do with a spider?
1:56:31
You flush it down the bloody plug hole, which is exactly what
1:56:34
he does at the end of The Runaway Bride.
1:56:36
And that's the moment where Donna has a profound impact on
1:56:39
the doctor, because she's telling him to, you know, you
1:56:43
need to stop doing this. And that's the point where he
1:56:45
realizes he doesn't want to be on his own anymore and he needs
1:56:48
a friend by his side. I think the runaway, right?
1:56:51
It's a really underrated story. It is a screwball comedy, and
1:56:55
there is all the laughs in there and and the silliness and the
1:56:58
big spider and the web star. But there's real heart.
1:57:02
There's the heart that only Russell T Davis can bring to
1:57:05
Doctor Who for me, in a way that none of the others can.
1:57:09
He's doing it again right now on Saturday nights.
1:57:13
And yeah, I just, I think, I think Donna goes on an
1:57:17
incredible journey, but a lot of people wrote her off as sort of
1:57:20
one shot, a bit of a, you know, a bit of a waste to use,
1:57:24
actually. I think she goes on an
1:57:25
incredible journey in that episode.
1:57:28
And the the sequence at the end where she knows she's explaining
1:57:32
why she doesn't want to go with him, What does she say?
1:57:34
Oh, you scare me to death. You know, you've made it snow,
1:57:37
and it's this insane world that you've thrown me into.
1:57:41
I think that's huge depth to her.
1:57:42
And he goes on to prove that later on.
1:57:45
I just think she's an extraordinary character and so
1:57:48
Donna is basically the the basis of my argument for The Runaway
1:57:51
Bride. I just thought it was again a
1:57:53
brilliant mood bringing her in because her show was in the
1:57:56
zeitgeist at the time and he pushed against what people
1:58:00
thought he was going to do with her by giving Catherine Tate
1:58:03
incredible acting opportunities and she sings.
1:58:08
Well, I completely. I had Catherine Tate down as my
1:58:11
number one recommendation for this one as well.
1:58:13
I think you're completely right. I get really annoyed and I think
1:58:16
it is still, you know, we all see what gets about things that
1:58:20
go on, on social media, boards, et cetera.
1:58:23
But it's a very lazy criticism of this and I constantly still
1:58:26
see it, that oh, she was just shouting the runaway bride.
1:58:29
I think that's so wrong. Yes, she does play her
1:58:32
characters a little bit at the beginning.
1:58:34
I mean when when she first gets taken out of the church and
1:58:38
transmits to the tards, she does do the comedy scream from that
1:58:42
character that screamed at everything in the Catherine Tate
1:58:44
show. But she's got so much more than
1:58:47
that. You know, she we see everything.
1:58:50
We see her heartbroken, as you say, when she realizes that
1:58:53
Lance has been duping her. We see her quite devious when
1:58:56
she turns up the reception party they're all having a go at.
1:58:59
That's quite just so she can get everybody back on side.
1:59:02
I've done that a few types since as well you know, got all the
1:59:05
tears. It works.
1:59:06
It really worked. She follows the doctor.
1:59:09
That's the really interesting thing.
1:59:11
He leaves up her and she follows him.
1:59:13
And I thought that's, you know, we're seeing that she trusts him
1:59:16
completely already. She follows him out that door.
1:59:18
And as you're right, Joe, as you rightly said, she knows when to
1:59:21
stop him. And of course, we got the
1:59:23
running gag that we are still getting that she misses
1:59:27
everything. My favorite one being that she
1:59:29
was in Spain scuba diving during the Battle of Canary Wharf.
1:59:33
Now, I cannot imagine Donna scuba diving, but it's a story,
1:59:36
It's great. So now I'm, I'm with you.
1:59:38
I'm I'm supporting this one. Yay.
1:59:42
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm channelling my inner a doke and finding that
1:59:48
I'm actually getting quite annoyed at The Runaway Bride the
1:59:51
more I think about. It go on.
1:59:53
Yeah I mean there is a lot of criticism there's you know
1:59:57
there's there's a lot of love for Catherine Tate in this
1:59:59
episode and none of it coming from me.
2:00:04
I no I do also I I do also think some of the the hate for the
2:00:08
character is overplayed as well. So Cathy act I love Catherine
2:00:12
Tate I love Donna I Series 4 is incredible and you know in in
2:00:17
the current specials that we are spoiler alert, it's not actually
2:00:20
Christmas Day right now in the middle of she's.
2:00:23
Fantasanterism. Real Max.
2:00:26
What was? Why would I?
2:00:27
Why? Would I say why would I say
2:00:29
something so obviously not real, Rod.
2:00:32
Moving swiftly on. Anyway, and fantastic.
2:00:36
What I would say is the tragedy of The Journey's end of
2:00:39
Journey's End relies on how horrific it would be for Donna
2:00:43
to become the character that she is in this episode again.
2:00:47
But I don't hate her. I don't think some ways I I
2:00:50
don't get it either. I do think you know people
2:00:51
because you'd be shrieky, be shouty.
2:00:53
It's overplayed. I think she just leaves me cold.
2:00:55
I think I I just don't feel anything for that character and
2:01:00
I don't think it's her, even necessarily.
2:01:02
It's certainly not Katherine Tate's fault because she's she's
2:01:05
magnificent and I don't necessarily think it's the the
2:01:08
the function of the character. I think there's some bigger
2:01:10
problems with this story #1 is that it's a screwball comedy
2:01:15
that I don't find funny. And I don't mean that the sense
2:01:18
of like, it's not the type of sooner.
2:01:19
I just don't laugh at it. There's just no bit where I find
2:01:21
it funny that oh, come on, space band, you know, OK, if you say
2:01:25
so. It just leaves me a bit cold.
2:01:27
It's not even the. Bit where she's trying to hail
2:01:29
the taxi and they're like they think I'm in drag.
2:01:32
Oh man, I love that bit. It's.
2:01:34
Just. I don't know.
2:01:37
I can't. I, you know, you know, Cuba is
2:01:39
one of those things, you know, comedy, horror porn.
2:01:43
If you don't react to it in the way you're meant to, you can
2:01:46
only really, you know, explain that in retrospect and it's just
2:01:52
it's just worth World talk I. Just want to go.
2:01:55
Backwards. But that's that's what that's
2:01:57
one thing. And that that is undoubtedly
2:01:59
just just a personal thing for me.
2:02:01
It's just the the jokes just don't land.
2:02:03
And I think even more so as time goes on.
2:02:05
I think there's a certain type of Russell T Davis comedy
2:02:08
writing as well, which is, you know, he can be incredibly
2:02:11
funny. And I've hooted and laughed.
2:02:13
But a bit like, you know, people talk about Moffett relying on
2:02:16
certain lazy troops as well. There are times when Russell T
2:02:18
Davis sort of writes square brackets.
2:02:19
Russell T Davis writing where it is just people going, Oh yeah,
2:02:23
then Neris, yeah, it's. Got.
2:02:26
The shape. It's got this.
2:02:28
Well, actually, no. Neris is a bad example, because
2:02:30
I actually think the nearest running joke is brilliant.
2:02:32
The Viper in the nest, you know. That OK, I shouldn't have
2:02:36
mentioned Nerys, because Nerys is their joke is actually
2:02:38
brilliant. But I think the bigger issue for
2:02:40
me is the one that you raised as a as a point, which is it's a
2:02:43
story that ends with Doctor Who murdering a bunch of children.
2:02:46
And the stories, the story and a it's not very that isn't very
2:02:50
Christmassy. But also there's an element to
2:02:54
which the story deals with this. And the story wants to deal with
2:02:57
this. The story wants to say, no,
2:02:58
stop, you've gone too far. And then they're like, well,
2:03:01
thank God you stopped. You've still lifted a bunch of
2:03:03
children. They're still dead.
2:03:05
You've still. Done that, spider children,
2:03:08
though. Oh, but oh.
2:03:10
Sorry. All right, Farage, I and I just
2:03:15
don't I And again, Russell. Stairs I think sometimes go, you
2:03:18
know, the darkness of the Doctor is something that he sometimes
2:03:21
overplays, because it gets to the point where he's never
2:03:23
actually willing to engage in the consequences of that.
2:03:26
Enough of what that says about your cash.
2:03:28
Like, I actually don't like this person anymore.
2:03:30
He isn't, you know, to what extent he should be a hero in
2:03:34
the class. He says he's wrong but this
2:03:35
isn't actually actually bad person to the extent that you
2:03:39
know 50th anniversary. There was a whole thing built
2:03:41
around the idea of imagine what's awful things the Doctor
2:03:43
might have got up to and we weren't looking Well look what
2:03:45
he did. We were looking you know this
2:03:48
isn't even like a remembrance of the Dalek still dodge where he's
2:03:51
tripped Davros into doing the thing that he didn't want him to
2:03:54
do. He's literally just killed a
2:03:55
bunch of children and I don't think the story is able to row
2:03:58
back from that and I think everything else after that lands
2:04:01
very, very packed I. Don't know what that says about
2:04:03
me then, because I just think that seems great when all those
2:04:06
spiders are flushed out of Donna Dry I.
2:04:09
Suppose it depends on your relationship with spiders.
2:04:11
And children if I. Yeah.
2:04:13
Oh, I. Think we better move?
2:04:14
Even what I said earlier, OK? Let's move swiftly on.
2:04:17
So it's one. Also, Toby, you have the casting
2:04:20
votes. Come on, it's Russell.
2:04:24
Come. On Is it a?
2:04:26
Yeah. You're an A.
2:04:26
It's. It's such a tricky thing for dot
2:04:28
do, isn't it? Because the the the baddies have
2:04:31
to be vanquished but we always like that that sort of moral
2:04:39
sort of get out of going well that you know the Doctor.
2:04:42
The Doctor has has only had to kill them as a last resort or or
2:04:46
has got somebody else who could conveniently do it or whatever
2:04:49
And and and you know much in the same way that you know you can
2:04:53
shut off parts of your brain and go well I kind of pretend that
2:04:55
didn't happen. I think certainly the way that I
2:04:58
view Dr. is is, you know, full of conflict and contradiction
2:05:02
and maybe even hypocrisy of going well, no, I see the Doctor
2:05:06
in that kind of way. But to do that I have to ignore
2:05:09
the fact that the doctor did this that and the other and and
2:05:12
and you know we sift out what we like and what we don't and
2:05:16
there's there's nothing wrong with that.
2:05:17
But it means it's hard to make a a a watertight case for anything
2:05:22
apart from going at the end of the day that's my personal taste
2:05:26
which which means I'm always, you know, rather scornful of
2:05:31
anybody that sort of goes Doctor Who is about this and if you
2:05:34
disagree you're wrong, you sort of go no, it's not.
2:05:38
It's you know, we we we very make compromises in our
2:05:41
worldview. I'm very much the Doctor Who is
2:05:43
kind and liberal but that that means that certain things have
2:05:46
to do a lot of heavy lifting and certain things have to be hugely
2:05:49
ignored. And with The Runaway Bride,
2:05:54
interesting that none of you have pointed to what I think is
2:05:56
it's major drawback in after the very winning romantic comedy
2:06:06
stuff Tracy back and forth. I I remember the first time I
2:06:13
watched it and they were on the Segways and I was thinking this
2:06:16
is starting to flag now and I need something to happen.
2:06:20
But I'm I'm not. I'm not as excited by the
2:06:22
Segways as the programme is and they end up in a room with a
2:06:26
spider that can't move right though doesn't it?
2:06:31
Right, Right though. The design is an excellent
2:06:35
though. Sarah Parrish who I think does a
2:06:37
thing that actors often forget to do or aren't bold enough to
2:06:42
do is go. I'm going to try and make this
2:06:43
alien. I'm going to try and make this
2:06:46
and I like the way that she calls him Doctor man and all of
2:06:48
that sort of thing. And she And she.
2:06:50
Isn't. She she's excellent she's she
2:06:53
it's it's and I and I think we underestimate sometimes how bold
2:06:57
you have to be in choices like that and you can end up with egg
2:07:00
on your face. And I think most people go I
2:07:02
think I'll just do RP Shakespearean because because
2:07:06
you can sort of get away with that when you're doing a monster
2:07:09
and and I and I think it really is a bold choice that works.
2:07:17
But I I do think it is quite static in that last 20 minutes.
2:07:23
I mean it's typical Russell T Davis that yes he will do that
2:07:25
horrific thing and he will make it a joke about spiders going
2:07:28
down the plug hole That's I mean that's just how brilliant he he
2:07:31
is. I think that's that sort of
2:07:33
cheeky power that he has. But I do love it because I do I
2:07:37
do really like Catherine Tate. I do think that TARDIS on the
2:07:41
motorway sequence is one of the great sequences in all of Doctor
2:07:46
Who. I think it has everything and
2:07:50
it's would have been really hard to put.
2:07:53
It's technically brilliant but it's also full of wit and full
2:07:57
of invention. Even the kids who are who are
2:08:00
non speaking supporting artists going chop chop all, yeah, it's
2:08:04
all absolutely cranky. It's a virtuoso sequence, and I
2:08:08
adore the way that, she says Santa's.
2:08:11
I was just going to say that to you, we're looking early,
2:08:14
weren't we about line deliveries?
2:08:15
I think that that and I'm going to get you a fire Christmas tree
2:08:18
are two. Of the best, Yeah, absolutely.
2:08:22
And so and and in the spirit of what we've done, because I think
2:08:27
having been told, oh, you know, you've got to, you've got to,
2:08:30
you've got to be mean about some stuff, Toby.
2:08:32
And as soon as I did it, I felt bad.
2:08:35
I remember playing football at school with a kid who was being
2:08:38
horrible to me. So, so I went to tackle and get
2:08:42
the ball off him and I deliberately didn't go for the
2:08:44
ball and deliberately kicked him in the shins because because
2:08:47
he'd been such a rotter. And I've regretted that ever
2:08:52
since. And every time I think about it,
2:08:54
I feel sick because it didn't give me the catharsis I thought
2:08:57
it would. It was.
2:08:59
It was an objectively mean thing to do, even though I feel like I
2:09:02
had a justification. And what it did to him was
2:09:06
unkind and unfair and did not become me and I didn't.
2:09:09
And it didn't give me the feeling of satisfaction that I
2:09:12
thought it might. And I, and I have to say, I'm
2:09:14
feeling exactly the same with you guys, having told me that I
2:09:17
had to be mean about a story. I was dead, you know, condemned
2:09:21
the Christmas Carol and immediately felt awful.
2:09:24
You. You were raffling that, Toby.
2:09:26
You were raffling it. Because it because it I've
2:09:29
never. Respected you more.
2:09:30
I think, Toby, I think you should stop now.
2:09:34
Exactly. I need someone to stop me.
2:09:38
No, I need someone not to stop me.
2:09:40
It's I only become evil under the influence of others.
2:09:46
So in the spirit of, you know, my Christmas Carol journey,
2:09:51
having had the ghosts of Christmas past, present and
2:09:54
future come to haunt me, I I I mean, I'm pretty 5050 with one
2:10:00
away Runaway Bride, and I think it's very much a game of two
2:10:03
halves. But if I'm 5050, I have to go.
2:10:08
Then I will err on the side of benevolence.
2:10:12
If in doubt, I think one always must celebrate rather than
2:10:17
condemn. Excellent.
2:10:19
So we are going to move on to round two, which given how long
2:10:23
we've talked on round one we are going to make very swift.
2:10:27
So we are left with five stories.
2:10:29
We're left with Runaway Bride, Voyage of the Damned, Last
2:10:32
Christmas, Husbands, Riversong and Return of Doctor Mysterio.
2:10:36
Just as a small caveat here, most seasons of Doctor Who do
2:10:39
tend to be about, you know, five or six stories long for the
2:10:43
episodes. And we won't always be.
2:10:45
Covered Absolutely. Stories.
2:10:47
So I have put them into my little random generator and what
2:10:52
I'm going to do is spin this twice and pick out two stories
2:10:57
and then as a group. So Toby, there's the safety in
2:11:01
numbers. As a group, we will decide which
2:11:05
is our favorite of the two, and we'll do that until we've got
2:11:08
down to our favorite Christmas special from this selection.
2:11:13
So let me run that and we have Last Christmas is the first one
2:11:20
and Last Christmas is going up against oh The Husbands of River
2:11:26
Song. Oh, we have Last Christmas and
2:11:29
the River. Well singers did I champion.
2:11:34
These were my two that I championed.
2:11:36
Hey, were you're in a very tough choice here.
2:11:38
You know what, I will be bold then and trying to save Toby
2:11:42
from himself, I will leap in first.
2:11:45
And of those two, if I've got to pick one over the other, I am
2:11:49
going to pick Last Christmas for the reason probably most of the
2:11:54
reasons I said earlier. I just think the plotting
2:11:58
leaving the general not we audience to one side.
2:12:00
I just think the plotting of Last Christmas has got so much
2:12:05
cleverness about it and the dream within a dream within a
2:12:08
dream and the heartbreaking moments of bittersweet just for
2:12:12
me beat the screwball comedy which I can totally enjoy.
2:12:16
But Last Christmas takes me to a possibly a darker place but a
2:12:20
place that pushes and makes me think more.
2:12:24
And I appreciate that to my Doctor Who.
2:12:26
So because it's more cerebral, I'm going for last Christmas.
2:12:32
Well, to make things to to, to maintain the tension, I'm going
2:12:36
to go with the husbands of Riversong because of, as
2:12:41
mentioned to the just the the wonderful chemistry between
2:12:44
Peter Capaldi and Alex Kingston. And you know, that's the scene,
2:12:49
you know, the sunset. The stars can't love you back.
2:12:52
Hello sweetie, The Roots of the Sunset.
2:12:54
I think that scene, that exchange alone for me, it's just
2:12:57
one of my favorite little bits of in in Doctor Who.
2:12:59
So I have to go for that much. So I love last Christmas.
2:13:05
I love both of these episodes. This is really tough, but I'm
2:13:09
going to go for last Christmas as well because I do think it's
2:13:14
a better story. And just for purely personal
2:13:18
reasons, this is the last time my nephew, we watched Doctor Who
2:13:24
with me on Christmas Day. We slunk off on Christmas Day
2:13:27
and we watched it in his bedroom and we sat there behind cushions
2:13:31
because it was a bit scary and that that was sort of the point
2:13:34
where he left the show. And I just have such a great
2:13:36
memory of the two of us watching it.
2:13:38
We never made it to the husband's with the song,
2:13:40
unfortunately, so I can't put that in as a comparison.
2:13:43
It's a personal reason, but it's mine.
2:13:46
So Toby, you are going to be racked with your conscience.
2:13:51
It's two to last Christmas, one to husbands.
2:13:54
It really is a a tough choice, but I I I have to sort of go on
2:13:59
gut instinct and go and interestingly go for something
2:14:04
that wasn't even mentioned I think in our first round and I'm
2:14:07
going to go for last Christmas, if only because Santa Claus,
2:14:12
innit. Of course, Dr., Whom knows Santa
2:14:15
Claus. And and I think it it it, you
2:14:18
know, I mean opened with that very bold gambit.
2:14:21
It it, it actually makes that pay off and it's got a joke
2:14:25
about satsumas and walnuts and I'm cool on that.
2:14:28
I actually, I set the challenge when I saw that teaser at the
2:14:31
end of Deaf and Heavila when there is no way that Stephen
2:14:34
Moffitt will ever be able to convince me that Santa Claus is
2:14:37
a character in Doctor Who. And I ate my fucking words at
2:14:40
the end of last Christmas. So congratulations to him.
2:14:44
And a bonus point as well to Nick Frost for giving a superb
2:14:47
performance. That because it must be very
2:14:49
difficult not to either ham that up or overplay it and I think he
2:14:53
he finds the balance beautifully.
2:14:55
And he was having having a nominatively determinant name as
2:14:58
well. Is is, yeah.
2:15:02
So it's. The only It's the only reason he
2:15:04
was cussed. I couldn't have agreed with him
2:15:06
more as well, even when he popped in at the end of Death in
2:15:08
Heaven, a miserable ending in that episode and went no, no,
2:15:10
no, this isn't how it ends. I was going, yes, OK, great.
2:15:13
I thought there was going to be some more after that, but there
2:15:16
we go. So we've lost Husbands of River
2:15:20
Song, so I've taken it out. The randomizer.
2:15:23
So let's spin again. We have Doctor Mysterio, Crikey.
2:15:30
Well done, Michael. And we have Voyage of the
2:15:34
Damned. Doctor Mysterio, because I'm a
2:15:38
perverse bastard, I'm riding high and having convinced you
2:15:43
all of its glory, I'm thinking I should run for high office at
2:15:45
this stage. Well, I'm, I'm going to have you
2:15:50
impeached because I'm going to go for Voyage of the Damned,
2:15:54
just because it's so, you know, bells and whistles.
2:15:59
But they're sleigh bells, and they're those sugar whistles
2:16:02
that you'd sometimes get you stocking in from the 1970s,
2:16:06
which. I'm going for Voyage of the
2:16:08
Damned because I also grew up in the 70s and I spent my entire
2:16:11
childhood being mocked for loving Doctor Who, and the more
2:16:15
people mocked me for it, the more I loved it and embraced it.
2:16:18
So I had a childhood of abuse and scorn and then suddenly to
2:16:24
turn on in 2007 and I have 13.3 million people watching it and
2:16:28
everyone talking about it. I feel a slight sense of
2:16:30
indication. Obviously nothing to do with me,
2:16:33
Thank you Mr. Russell T Davis, but it made me feel good.
2:16:37
So and it's a great story, It's a rollicking adventure, great
2:16:39
characters. So as much as I do like
2:16:42
Mysterio, I'm going voyage. I'm also going to choose Voyage
2:16:47
of the Damned, and not for the obvious reason that I prefer
2:16:50
Rusty Davis writing over Steven Moffett, because I actually
2:16:53
think Moffett writes better Christmas specials on the whole,
2:16:57
or certainly Christmas specials about Christmas.
2:17:00
But Voyage of the Damned is the only episode of Doctor Who that
2:17:04
I know that convinced friends of mine Toby that are into rimming
2:17:09
to go out and buy Doctor Who Magazine for the first and only
2:17:13
time when it had Kylie Minogue against the Dalek and it was
2:17:18
genuinely getting people involved that would never touch
2:17:22
the show before. So for that reason, life.
2:17:25
Is it how interesting when you do it around Europe?
2:17:28
When you do it around what? Is interiming when you do it
2:17:31
around Europe. When you're between jobs, isn't
2:17:34
it only? The coast.
2:17:35
Only the coast. Oh, fairly well.
2:17:40
Doctor Mysterio this is like with Wales.
2:17:42
It's like when Wales went out in the first round of the year,
2:17:44
Rose. We dared to dream and of course
2:17:46
we didn't. Sorry.
2:17:47
It was a hell of a. Reference I'm I'm lost.
2:17:53
A football reference. Oh yeah, it was.
2:17:55
Oh, sorry, it all got a bit dangerously.
2:17:57
The top level here will be very confusing.
2:17:59
I was fine with the rimming references.
2:18:01
Football. You lost, mate.
2:18:03
So interestingly enough, we're left with the two David Tennants
2:18:06
that got left to last, which is interesting.
2:18:08
So we're left with Runaway Bride, Voyage of the Damp and
2:18:10
Last Christmas. So let's spin that wheel again.
2:18:15
And we have Last Christmas playing Runaway Bride, so I'm
2:18:26
going to jump straight in and go.
2:18:29
Obviously my #1 champion is Last Christmas.
2:18:34
I'm not going to say anymore. It's just beautiful.
2:18:38
Well, I I as established I liked last Christmas and I'm not keen
2:18:41
on the runaway bride, so therefore my vote is last
2:18:44
Christmas. I I prefer Last Christmas, but
2:18:49
right away Bride has got Catherine Tate in it.
2:18:51
I love everything with Catherine Tate in it.
2:18:53
Now, last Christmas, let's let's be honest, I think it's a better
2:18:56
episode last Christmas. Yeah, and it's funny.
2:18:59
My, my, my. You know, my heart goes in a way
2:19:04
with Runaway Bride because of all the things that we said
2:19:07
about it. But my head goes with Last
2:19:11
Christmas because I actually think if I was to watch, but I I
2:19:16
think I would go. I think I'd prefer to watch
2:19:18
Runaway Bride, but then watching them, I think I would come out
2:19:21
and go. I actually preferred watching
2:19:24
Last Christmas. Do you know what I mean?
2:19:26
I think it's actually as a whole it's probably better.
2:19:30
I think Runaway Bride has has certain things about it that are
2:19:33
glorious but I think perhaps as a whole and perhaps if one
2:19:36
removes one's well. And also because I I'm, I'm, I'm
2:19:40
keen to advocate for the for the Moffat era because there's so
2:19:45
much about it that is absolutely tip top.
2:19:47
And I think I've on occasion just just concentrated on 2
2:19:51
aspects of it that that that I struggle with which is the timey
2:19:54
wimey and the sexy waxy and and so I'm going to, I'm going to
2:20:00
choose last Christmas as well. Fabulous.
2:20:02
So how interesting. So from our eight Christmas
2:20:05
specials, think about the ones we decided to choose.
2:20:08
So therefore the ones that went out first.
2:20:11
The in eighth was next. Doctor 7th, unbelievably, was
2:20:15
Christmas Carol, 6th was Doctor Widow and the Wardrobe, 5th was
2:20:19
Husbands of Riversong, 4th Return of Doctor Mysterio, 3rd
2:20:24
place Runaway Bride. So we are left positions one and
2:20:28
two with Voyage of the Damned and Last Christmas.
2:20:31
So this is the Titanic. Excuse the pun battle for the
2:20:37
final place, gentlemen. Place your place, your
2:20:41
preference. For the guests.
2:20:45
Hobie, you can go first or be kind.
2:20:48
Well, I am going to book my ticket for the Titanic and sale
2:20:55
into Christmas on the Voyage of the Damned for big tits and
2:21:01
teeth headline grabbing. Because that's what Chris
2:21:05
Christmas is all about. Gluttony.
2:21:07
There are better written episodes.
2:21:09
There are probably better executed episodes.
2:21:11
There are episodes that probably hold together more.
2:21:14
But sometimes none of those things matter.
2:21:16
And what you want is a big plate of cheese.
2:21:20
That's mouldy vegetables that have been pickled within an inch
2:21:24
of their life, and the two of them together with curdle inside
2:21:27
you. But somehow, shoving them in
2:21:30
your mouth and swallowing them down is just glorious.
2:21:35
You've been at my house on Christmas Day then, have you?
2:21:39
Michael. Michael.
2:21:43
It's a good final two. It's a worthy final two.
2:21:47
But you know, I'm ultimately, as I've probably demonstrated at
2:21:53
points in this this Christmas episode, a bit up myself at
2:21:57
times and fancy myself to be an aesthete.
2:21:59
And I therefore think I have to go for last Christmas.
2:22:03
And it's partly because something I didn't mention,
2:22:05
which is the first time I saw last Christmas, I thought it was
2:22:08
miserable. And I thought, oh, you're being
2:22:10
clever, Stephen Moffitt. Oh, you've been clever.
2:22:12
It's Christmas. Come on.
2:22:13
And I was so wrong. And everything that's been said
2:22:15
praising it is right. So my redemptive arc is that I'm
2:22:19
going to vote for last Christmas as the best Doctor Who Christmas
2:22:23
special. I think it is.
2:22:25
It's just it's got Santa, it's got aliens and it's got fame.
2:22:28
Arzi, as I said, giving one of the best one episode
2:22:30
performances in all of Doctor Who.
2:22:32
So gets my votes. Sorry, Bernard has just invaded
2:22:35
the podcast. The casting.
2:22:37
Voting Does he have a? Vote.
2:22:40
Which do you prefer? Do you prefer last Christmas or
2:22:42
do you prefer? I'll show you to everybody there
2:22:47
He was. So he's come to say hello.
2:22:51
Yeah, he can have the casting vote, can he?
2:22:53
Hey, Bernard. Hey, pal.
2:22:55
You OK? It's you and me, Rod it.
2:22:57
Is do you want to go first Joe or second I'll?
2:23:01
Go first. It's either an experience with
2:23:05
my nephew or an experience with my mother, and they both love
2:23:11
the two episodes. And I'm going to go with the
2:23:14
experience with my mother because I lost her five years
2:23:16
ago and every jolly memory of her, it just sparkles in my
2:23:21
head. That phone call that she gave me
2:23:23
when she roam me up and said that was so much fun, man, it
2:23:26
always felt like a win when she loved Doctor Who.
2:23:28
I remember she sat down with me once when I was watching Stones
2:23:30
of Blood and she was like, what that on earth is this, these
2:23:34
bizarre polystyrene shapes roaming around the countryside.
2:23:37
And she sat there and watched all of it and at the end she
2:23:40
said, well that was rather jolly, wasn't it?
2:23:42
I was like, yes, so my mum loving dogs, who was the biggest
2:23:45
win? I'm going Voyage of the Dam
2:23:47
because she loved it. Goodness, just two for Voyage
2:23:52
and one for Last Christmas. I feel I've got to stick with
2:23:59
us, Chris. I don't know how we're going to
2:24:00
decide this. I feel I've got to stick with
2:24:02
Last Christmas because it breaks me every time I watch it.
2:24:07
And it reminds you of your humanity, it reminds you of your
2:24:12
mortality and it reminds you to hold the ones that you love
2:24:17
close. And for TV show, I love to move
2:24:23
me and to kind of get that message through to me, I just
2:24:28
find it beautiful. And so, yes, I love the horror,
2:24:33
I love the comedy, I love the characters, but that
2:24:37
heartbreaking scene just does it for me.
2:24:41
So it's got to be last Christmas for me.
2:24:45
Fine. Well gentlemen, it looks,
2:24:47
unfortunately is that we haven't got a clear winner.
2:24:51
Hey, in the spirit of Christmas, Love Is All around, so that's
2:24:54
not necessarily a bad thing. If you can't agree on how to
2:24:57
play with it, then neither of you should have it.
2:24:59
That's the true spirit of Christmas Day afternoon.
2:25:03
I've learned that lesson many times, and a lack of consensus
2:25:06
between Doctor Who fans. Kel Sabreeze.
2:25:09
But it's all done in a loving and positive and constructive
2:25:12
environment, OK? That is.
2:25:17
No, no. After you, Joe.
2:25:18
That's I just wanted to say thank you very much.
2:25:20
Merry Christmas. I hope the two of you have been
2:25:22
spoilt rotten, are tucking into some fabulous dinner right now
2:25:26
and having a wonderful day. But thank you so much for your
2:25:28
time. Absolutely.
2:25:30
You've been tremendous guests on our first first episode of
2:25:34
Strictly. So thank you both so much for
2:25:36
your insight and wisdom and wit. You've been magnificent.
2:25:41
So thank you and thank you to everyone at home.
2:25:44
Thank you for listening. And until next time, Joe.
2:25:48
And what we've got to say? Keep dancing.
2:25:50
Keep listening. OK, you listening?
2:25:54
Happy Christmas. Merry Christmas.
2:25:56
Good night. Everyone.
2:25:58
Because I always say I'll cut it there.
2:26:12
The. The.