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We Finally Reached Water 7 - StrawChat · Anime Club Podcast

0:23
Welcome to Anime Club this week. We're very excited.
0:28
So welcome to not only the anime club that we're welcoming to
0:32
this month, we're also welcome you to Queer History Month,
0:37
which I'm personally I'm quite excited about, if only because
0:40
we get to talk about. The anime that started it all
0:44
for me. She is the one Sailor Moon and
0:50
Chris let me pick. So that's what we're doing.
0:53
We're doing pretty Sailor Scout. Yeah.
0:56
Guardian of Earth. Yeah, it was fun to be honest.
1:02
Yeah, like I honestly was expecting more rebellion from
1:05
Chris, but you have just like you just went with it.
1:08
You watched 3 episodes, we're going to play a little bit of a
1:10
game later. Yeah.
1:13
What did you think? See, I've told you I've I'm open
1:17
to anything new. If I don't like it, then at
1:19
least I know I'll not like it. So.
1:22
And you know, the things that I won't watch.
1:25
So yeah. Yeah, yeah.
1:28
Although there are moments that border on I'm not in this and
1:32
we'll get to that, Yeah, yeah. But yeah.
1:39
So welcome to Anime Club. We're doing Sailor Moon
1:42
specifically how? Well actually, so Sailor Moon.
1:45
The reason that we picked this for LGBTQIA Plus month, Alphabet
1:49
Mafia Month is because Sailor Moon has a very interesting
1:56
history in terms of its westernisation and it raises
2:01
some interesting questions around queer representation and
2:04
what should and shouldn't be censored in anime, as well as
2:08
being just a fun nostalgic vapour wave time.
2:12
But before we get. Before so much vapour wave
2:16
energy does does the fact that this was one of the first anime
2:22
I ever truly fell in love with this and Dragon Ball ZI feel
2:26
like explains so much about why. Like the colours I wear, the way
2:30
I live my life like it is. It's formative.
2:37
The So the first 3 episode we opted for classic Sailor Moon.
2:43
We didn't watch the original dub.
2:45
We watched a dub version, which is a later dub, and the reason
2:50
you can tell is that as along with many other changes, one of
2:53
the main changes that they made in the original dub was they
2:55
changed Sailor Moon's name to Serena from Usagi.
3:00
Usagi meaning rabbit. In fact, because of the and
3:04
that's part of the long pigtails looks like a rabbit.
3:08
I didn't get that. There we go.
3:10
Oh, there you go. But what did you get from the
3:13
first 3 episodes? What?
3:14
How would you, how would you describe what happens?
3:17
And this is a test just to see if you paid attention.
3:20
A little bit. So the main thing like the first
3:25
episode was Usagi finding a stray cat and it's busy gives
3:32
her powers. But the series as a whole from
3:35
what I've seen it the three episodes is a monster of the
3:39
week. In the first 3 episodes there
3:42
wasn't a lot of continuity in plot but I'm guessing there is
3:46
because there's like 200 odd episodes of it's at the minute
3:50
so it's got to be something holding it together.
3:53
There's something holding it together.
3:54
It's loose though, because this is the early 90s.
3:56
This is released in 1990. Two in Japan, so monster of the
4:02
week is very much the vibe. You can tell that I mean not in
4:06
a bad way of a monster of the week where I could watch episode
4:11
1 or I could watch episodes 501 and I still get the same
4:15
enjoyment. I wouldn't be like, who's that?
4:17
What's he doing? Because some of the characters
4:20
are on for 10 seconds in episode anyway.
4:23
But yeah, so Sailor Moon or Usagi has been granted the power
4:30
of the moon. Yeah, correct.
4:32
As if I'm I'm wrong because this.
4:34
Keep going. And and she punishes evil doers
4:39
with by the power of the moon. And she's known as the is it the
4:43
good looking one? I'm looking at me notes and it's
4:46
not in there. I don't know why, but she she
4:49
keeps saying I'm the looker one or I'm the good looking 1.
4:53
So I'm assuming that there's going to be a a not good looking
4:56
one. No, they're all good looking.
5:00
All right. I didn't know.
5:01
That's the thing, I think that's just like her gassing herself up
5:05
to be honest. Right, she's.
5:08
Like and you do get a hit of this.
5:11
She's oh, she does not want to be there.
5:13
Like I think she's extremely relatable because really all she
5:16
wants to do is eat and sleep like a cat.
5:20
And there's a bit like a cat. There's a bit in the third
5:23
episode that we were talking about where she's her teacher
5:27
has been kind of like given a cursed flower that makes her
5:32
fall into us like a sleeping disease, like a like a constant
5:35
sleep and they can't wake her up.
5:38
And. The whole class are like, oh,
5:40
it's so bad, Can you imagine how awful?
5:43
And then she's sitting there like Daydream and being like,
5:45
oh, Can you imagine how nice it would be to just sleep all day?
5:49
And I've never felt so seen in my life.
5:52
It's on, it's on the news as well.
5:55
There's like there's people like, oh, this mysterious
5:57
sleeping disease, like in on the telly where the dad listen to
6:01
dad, terrible dad by the way, and and and she's just saying,
6:06
wouldn't that be nice? Everyone's like no.
6:12
So yeah, and she's very much in that like happy go lucky.
6:14
She's failed. She's flunking all her classes.
6:18
She's a bit bit dumb, like a bit cowardly.
6:24
I put. This and supposed to be the
6:26
savoury of earth. I genuinely put this down to her
6:30
being a 14 year old girl because I'm like I was AI was a Dick
6:35
when I was 14 year old. I can't expect anyone else to be
6:41
competent. No, and that's kind of what I
6:44
like about it. And in and she's not very good
6:47
at fighting the evil in the beginning either.
6:50
So like her, her power grows throughout the series as Luna
6:55
train Luna the talking cat trains her.
6:58
Yeah. But yeah, she is basically just
7:01
like a like a high schooler. She's a teenage girl fighting
7:07
monsters and an evil queen. Beryl.
7:12
Yeah. And it is.
7:14
It's an interesting series. Like how gay did you think it?
7:17
Was a weird question to ask someone in a podcast.
7:22
Is this where we get cancelled? No, I don't think so.
7:25
I mean, we're allowed to talk about gays.
7:28
Yeah, culture I think anyway, we'll find out.
7:32
I think so and I didn't I didn't get any from the first 3
7:37
episodes and nothing at all. My impression first gone into it
7:43
and after I get into two or three episodes down was it is
7:47
following a teenage girl into having typical of the 90s
7:53
stereotypical and 90s girls problems.
7:56
Like she's got crushes on people, she's navigating life,
8:00
she's failing school, struggling to get up in the morning, that
8:03
kind of thing. None of that screams to me queer
8:07
content. Yeah, I mean, it's not relatable
8:12
to me as a male, but. What, you don't want to sleep
8:18
and eat all day? I can't.
8:23
Got stuff to do? No, but that doesn't mean you
8:26
don't want to. True, that's true.
8:32
So what we did is because I knew that this that would be a fit
8:36
like the first 3 episodes, you don't even meet all the sailor
8:39
scouts. In fact, you only get really a
8:40
hint of one other Sailor Scout, which is Sailor Venus, who is a
8:44
manga film star at this point. But there are many Sailor Scouts
8:53
in Sailor Moon, and they all have like, their own little kind
8:56
of struggles. And again, it's all very kind of
8:59
teenage romancey. Like, sometimes it's teenage
9:02
romance. Sometimes it's just about trying
9:04
to like, deal with the stress of performing well at school and
9:08
feeling like you have to. You don't want to disappoint
9:10
your parents. Like it's all kind of normal
9:11
teenage girl stuff. So I found some videos of some
9:19
clips. Now I've got some facts about
9:22
the westernisation and I don't know if it'd be helpful to do
9:26
those first. Should we do the videos first?
9:28
Do you? Think videos 1st and then it can
9:31
add a bit of. And then I can talk a bit about
9:34
the the westernisation journey and why I think this is quite an
9:38
interesting thing to look at for for a queer History Month.
9:42
Yeah, yeah. OK, 11 take it away.
9:45
I'll just load up the video. Magical girl transformation
9:50
sequence. Sorry I'm I'm watching the moon
9:55
again. I know you dazzled.
10:00
I am. I definitely did not forget to
10:03
set up the third screen for this video as well, so.
10:06
That's fine, it's all good. That's why we have the magical
10:09
girl transformation. Sequence.
10:10
Take it away. Feel as useless as Tuxedo Mask.
10:17
What's this obsession you have with older men?
10:19
Because that's usually the way it is usual.
10:21
Hell. Usual as in usual.
10:23
I don't know any of these characters yet.
10:26
No, you won't admit any of them. That's Sailor Mars.
10:30
Handsome or not, I can't believe Mako would go chasing after
10:33
another woman. You're missing the.
10:35
Point you're 1, judge. Isn't this yours, Ray?
10:39
Get your puppy. Hands off my first edition,
10:43
sailor. Do that.
10:46
No, please don't. The other thing is the aspect
10:53
ratio. That's how you know you were in
10:54
the 90s, because TV's used to be, yeah.
10:59
I absolutely love the art style. You called.
11:04
I was not a happy child. That's the.
11:08
Reason. See.
11:09
OK, now it's getting a bit more. Openly lesbian.
11:14
Yeah. We'll work together, we'll find
11:17
a way by combining our powers, I'm sure we can remove her evil
11:21
and bring back the girl we. Love, you're right.
11:26
Thank you. Still, you have bags under your
11:29
eyes. Is that I do.
11:32
In the end, I'll find a rich, handsome machinery.
11:35
He'll be my Prince, and I'll be taken care of.
11:38
That's what women really want. Getting stuck with some muscule
11:42
shrine would be awful. I've heard enough.
11:44
It's time to leave. Boom.
11:45
Up this equipment here. Somebody could bump into it.
11:48
So put it away. Yes.
11:50
Ray is so efficient. She.
11:51
Is so lovely. I've just taken us this year
11:55
without. Her putting everything together.
11:58
You think this is how it goes. You think this is how girls talk
12:01
to each other all the time? All the time.
12:09
I thought that was a lovely song.
12:12
Thank you. I never realized, but you're a.
12:15
Really super hard worker. Soggy, why don't I teach you a
12:22
thing or two about hard work? Kiss, and then they kiss.
12:36
This is where it gets interested.
12:38
Right. Kiss me, Michael.
12:47
That might be what are you. Doing Oh, Elizabeth, come on,
12:53
Michael, kiss me kiss. That's just like a normal girl's
12:57
sleepover, isn't? It Yeah.
12:59
Yeah, although normally we don't cover so much skin.
13:04
Let's pull up item. Yeah.
13:13
But earlier when you said is that a man that back character
13:16
there? Right.
13:18
With her looks like cousin. Right.
13:21
Oh yeah, guess it is. Let me help you.
13:27
And, I would argue, far more gallant and chivalrous and
13:32
dashing. Yeah.
13:35
And Tuxedo Mask ever is. To be fair, it with that
13:40
character design it could be a woman or it could be a normal
13:43
vampire chasing after another woman.
13:44
You're missing the point. Here, so true.
13:53
There we go, and we're back to the beginning.
13:56
So, yeah, no, you're right. And actually that's it.
13:58
That's an interesting point. So in.
14:02
So here's the story. So pretty.
14:04
That's like some of that seems pretty explicit, right?
14:07
Girls almost kissing. Lots of bubbles and flowers.
14:11
But talk to me about your impressions.
14:13
So when I was first watching it, I did think, is this not just
14:18
girls who are friends kind of thing, but that as it goes on,
14:22
you kind of like, well, yeah, I can see how this is coded and
14:25
people would get that message and that kind of vibe from it.
14:30
So yeah, yeah, you've kind of, you've kind of swayed this
14:34
round, but. I made the argument.
14:38
I didn't get any of this from the first 3 episodes though, so
14:41
I think that's nice. Yeah, I would have to watch this
14:43
to get get it. Yeah, and to be fair, Sailor
14:47
Mars, who was a big part of this, isn't canonically gay, but
14:51
I just have a bid for her being a lesbian in some fan fiction
14:55
that I've read once. And I've read Slash wrote slash,
15:01
pretended to be, And there's a reason I wore red.
15:06
That's her colour, but the so it hasn't.
15:13
So this is part of the thing, right?
15:15
And it's interesting that you say it could be a lady, it could
15:18
be a noble vampire. Yeah, because there are some
15:22
very as well as like the kind of Butch character you saw there.
15:26
There are also some very femme presenting men.
15:29
And when Sailor Moon was first westernized and brought to
15:32
America in 1994, so two years after its release in Japan, they
15:39
changed genders of some of the characters.
15:42
So there are two bad guys who serve Queen Beryl who are called
15:51
Zoci and Kunzite. And they are in the Japanese
15:56
anime canonically in a relationship and both men.
16:00
And when they did the dub, they changed the more femme looking
16:04
man into a woman. There's also another villain
16:09
called Fisheye who is an effeminate cross dressing man
16:13
but and is romantically interested in men but appears to
16:17
be a woman and they just changed him into a woman as well.
16:22
So some of the way that they kind of suppressed the gay
16:25
representation in Sailor Moon was to actually change people's
16:28
gender. Another thing they did, which
16:32
you saw with that couple with the blonde woman and the girl
16:34
with the long kind of dark green hair.
16:37
So one of the things they did with them and it's and it's
16:39
Mamoru and oh, no, sorry, that's not it.
16:44
It's oh, what's her name? I forget their name.
16:51
I feel like I want to say it's Sailor Pluto and Sailor Neptune.
16:56
Anyway, with those two, they instead of instead of like
17:00
letting them be a couple, which they are in the Japanese
17:05
version, they changed them into being cousins.
17:08
But what they didn't do is change any of the other
17:11
dialogues. So what you end up with, This is
17:15
why we say they're cousins. It actually makes it more
17:18
problematic because basically what they're saying is we would
17:22
rather that these cousins have a secret, weird kissing gay
17:26
relationship as long as they're not openly referred to as a
17:29
lesbian couple. That somehow is more OK for a
17:32
children's show than if they were just two women in a
17:35
healthy, happy relationship. And I think it's interesting.
17:39
Is it some of these choices? But what?
17:42
Because I don't know what kind of relationship is presented in
17:45
this. So they are like, like, openly
17:49
romantically, and they refer to themselves as a couple.
17:53
They are a couple. So it's like open LGBTQ
17:57
characters. And we had a little conversation
17:59
in our Discord, Yeah. About like, what was the kind of
18:04
like, some of the first gay characters you saw in telly?
18:07
Because I do think this is a thing in Western media is I
18:11
certainly. And because I can't remember
18:13
what you said with your like, what was your earliest gay
18:15
character you remember seeing on telly?
18:18
It was because I was looking it up.
18:20
It was distinctly, remember a main character that is openly
18:26
gay and not kind of the butt of a joke was Will and Grace, which
18:30
was 1998. And obviously this, I've seen
18:35
characters that are horrible tropes or stereotypes that are
18:38
meant to be the butt of the joke.
18:39
So I didn't count them. But yeah, I would say Will and
18:43
Grace. That series is where it was kind
18:46
of normalized. Yeah, and and that was that was
18:50
a that was a series that I think it was for the West at least,
18:54
very revolutionary because not only have you got openly gay
18:57
characters, they are the main characters of the story.
19:00
So they're not just like the gay best friend.
19:03
They are the, the, the relationship like hinges on the
19:08
fact that of like Will's sexuality and Jack's sexuality.
19:13
That's part of the plot and part of the things that is discussed
19:16
in the telly. Some like Lee said that he can
19:20
remember John Inman as being gay in Are You Being Served.
19:24
So it's the very effeminate kind of gentleman.
19:27
'S. Like Dresser and he was a gay
19:31
man in real life and he's makes a lot of quite what what now
19:39
seemed like quite obvious gay jokes.
19:40
But at the time he was using like a type of gay slang called
19:46
Polari. So he often makes jokes about
19:48
sponges or stones. And that's because you weren't
19:52
allowed to make any kind of gay references.
19:55
It wasn't acceptable. And it was actually illegal to
19:58
make those kind of references on telly because it's illegal to be
20:00
gay at the time in the UK. And in fact, I think it remains
20:04
illegal up until like 1994 when? Sailor Moon transitions over to
20:08
the West, right? It's either 94 or 98, but it's
20:11
like much later than you would hope it be.
20:15
And so, so Polari was like this kind of slang that was used in
20:20
the gay community to be able to kind of help you identify if
20:24
someone was gay or not because you'd recognise the same kind of
20:27
slang. It's almost like a secret
20:28
language, a bit like cockney rhyming slang.
20:31
So a sponge would be a bottom, a stone would be a top.
20:35
So it would be a way of kind of negotiating like a possible
20:39
sexual encounter without ever having to say that out loud in a
20:42
way that someone could hear you. So there are lots of, there are
20:45
lots of characters like that in I think in British media where
20:49
they're not openly gay, but everyone knows they're gay and
20:52
they're allowed to make these very flamboyant camp jokes.
20:54
But what you can't ever do is say they're gay out loud.
20:59
Implied gay. Implied gay?
21:02
Absolutely fine. Everyone's allowed a gay uncle
21:05
at a party who can be a bit camp and make some jokes.
21:08
But what you can't have is a main character who is like
21:12
allowed to fall in love on telly until you get shows like Will
21:18
and Grace. And they also do stuff in
21:19
EastEnders as well in the kind of like 19 in the early 90s
21:24
where you start to have like women kissing on the telly.
21:28
But in Japan, this was kind of more normalised.
21:31
So you so you do have these characters appearing in queer
21:35
shows and you do have this lesbian couple being openly gay.
21:39
And when it gets translated and Westernised, that's one of the
21:44
things that changes. They also changed some other.
21:46
Things right, That's part of as part of the westernisation and I
21:52
want to see if you could guess what else do you think the
21:54
censors thought would be good to change.
21:58
So they've already. If you had to make a guess.
22:01
So they've already switched A and gender swaps of people and
22:06
put incest in favour of a homosexual relationship.
22:11
In favour of healthy homosexual consenting relationships, yes.
22:15
Yeah, that's correct. That's why I asked, because I
22:17
was like, oh, was there any other reason other than being in
22:22
a homosexual relationship? It was just that they'd rather
22:25
have intest. They just rather have incest
22:28
because they thought somehow being cousins would be fine and
22:31
it wouldn't look so gay. But it still looks gay because
22:33
they don't change any of the dialogue.
22:35
So they're still kind of gay. It's just that now they're
22:40
cousins as well. Yeah.
22:47
So what else would they have changed?
22:49
Is this in relation In relation to?
22:54
So this is broad, no, So this is just broadly across.
22:57
So they're like, so there's a process that a lot of anime goes
23:00
through and it happens in gaming a lot as well, is where you have
23:03
localisation teams work on dubbing and subbing things and
23:08
making it more like more palatable or kind of more in
23:13
keeping with wherever you're shipping your content abroad.
23:19
I'm guessing ages hopefully. Nope.
23:26
So good, good question. Because you would have hoped so
23:28
Because Sailor Moon does engage in a relationship with a fully
23:32
grown adult as a 14 year old girl.
23:34
But no, that stays as is in the western eyes.
23:37
That that fine lesbian couple. No, but it's fine for an
23:42
underage relationship with a fully grown mum.
23:45
Right, right. I'm, I'm trying to think where
23:49
the bar is at these centres. Yeah, it's great question.
23:54
So the they're OK with a massive age difference under race.
24:05
No. They haven't changed any race.
24:08
Haven't changed any race. I don't know then.
24:14
OK, so some of the things that they do is so one of the things
24:19
they do is they they change all the names.
24:21
So we talked about Serena and Usagi.
24:24
They also change Mamaru Chiba, who is Tuxedo Mask.
24:31
They change his name to Darian Shields.
24:36
Darian Shields, which I like. He actually really like.
24:42
I think that's really funny. But you know, as we have
24:46
discussed, Serena or Usagi, Sailor Moon is an underage high
24:53
school student involved with an adult now.
24:56
At the time the age of consent in Japan, it was 13.
25:00
So in Japan, that's not that's not an underage relationship.
25:06
So it's interesting that when it was transported to the West,
25:10
where the age of consent was 16, that that didn't change.
25:16
So how old is Tuxedo Mask or Darian Shields?
25:20
Good question, I don't actually know but I I've always put him
25:23
around like 20 in his. He's in his early 20s.
25:26
Either way, he's too old. So I'm just thinking if here a
25:33
man, because that's what he would be in his early 20s, was
25:37
in a relationship with a legal 16 year old, it's legally OK,
25:43
but not morally. Yeah, we'd still have questions.
25:48
We'd still want to know. We'd still want to know.
25:51
What they had. We'd want to know what's going
25:54
on. Yeah.
25:55
What? What have you got in common?
25:57
Yeah. Yeah.
25:59
Do your parents know where you are?
26:01
Those sorts of questions. What is it that shot shot that
26:05
you asked for the bar for help? Do you want an Angel shot?
26:12
Yeah, yeah. You'd be checking people's hand
26:14
for like dots. That's another thing that.
26:16
Yeah. So yeah, so the interestingly.
26:21
That ages don't change. There is a couple of other
26:23
changes they did make. OK, do.
26:28
You want to have one more guess. Or are you?
26:31
Are you done with the guessing? It's weird how you looked at us
26:33
with a weird look as you said. Do you want another guess?
26:37
Well, it's just, I think this, yeah, I just think it's funny
26:39
that what they actually did do. So so the name genders name of
26:49
the cat Luna? No.
26:52
No, that is. No, Luna stays the same.
26:55
Luna actually stays the same, no?
26:59
So what they do is that they change.
27:00
So they change the they change the title and they change it
27:04
from a romance ballad to an anthem focused on Sailor Moon's
27:10
like identity as the superhero. So the original Japanese song is
27:15
all about her relationship and her romance with Tuxedo Mask.
27:19
Basically they reverse the traffic scenes so that people
27:26
are driving on the right hand side of the road.
27:28
Why would they care? About that what why would they
27:32
care about that? And but still cousins.
27:35
Do you know what I mean? Like it's just I just think this
27:37
is This is why I find it kind. There's there's an element of
27:39
the westernisation that's almost comical because it's the
27:42
priority of things that we think is worth investing money into
27:45
changing. Do you know?
27:46
What to be heard as soon as you said that the attention to
27:49
detail is just not in the right place, it's.
27:53
Really impressive, but it really isn't.
27:56
And so they change the traffic, they change the they change the
27:59
theme tune to make it more superhero Y and less romancey,
28:03
which actually not a bad choice. Not a bad choice.
28:07
They do remove some of the violent scenes, but they lower
28:11
the violence and they also reduce the visible like visible
28:16
nudity. So there are some.
28:19
Scenes in the original, like the transformation sequences where
28:22
you see like silhouettes of the girls naked as they transform
28:26
and they get like ribbons around them as they get their sailor
28:28
outfits on, and it's all quite fun.
28:31
So they lower some of that and they lower some of the other,
28:33
like background bits of nudity that happen.
28:35
I get that. Yeah, I get that.
28:41
That's fine. And but if you're going to do
28:43
that, you're going to, but you're going to leave, Yeah.
28:46
Yeah, great attention. Not on the right please.
28:51
Yeah, and the idea was just to make it more culturally
28:53
appropriate for an American audience.
28:55
Really. That's the that was the the
28:57
whole aim of the westernisation of the of, of Sailor Moon.
29:01
But despite this, and despite the fact that some of the
29:03
representation is messed around with, one of the reasons I.
29:07
Love this show is is hugely, hugely culturally impactful,
29:12
particularly for anime for girls.
29:14
So up until now, like a lot of anime was being made for, but
29:18
like it was very popular. You had things like Dragon Ball
29:20
Z like very like focused on like delivering anime for boys.
29:29
That's exciting and actiony. And you don't see a lot of women
29:31
getting involved in the fun action bits and Sailor Moon.
29:35
You get to see women fighting and it's mostly about the girls
29:37
and like you said. One of the things is it's a bit
29:41
like in JoJo where all of the women are useless and there's
29:45
just loads of men fighting each other.
29:46
In Sailor Moon it's reversed, all of the men are useless and
29:49
it's just loads of girls fighting to save the earth.
29:52
And I kind of love that. I love it for that.
29:54
And I love that it kind of it invigorated a whole genre.
29:58
So there are lots of animes that come after this that where,
30:01
like, it's action-packed and it's like fighting anime for
30:05
girls with a bit of boy craziness thrown in there just
30:09
to, you know, just to appeal. So it kind of it has a huge
30:13
cultural impact in terms of anime, I think Sailor Moon, I
30:18
don't know. Also, it's just a.
30:19
Hasn't heard of it. Yeah, it's it's it is like,
30:24
yeah, it's a big one. It's also one of the other
30:27
reasons I love it is it has the same so it is inspired by the
30:31
same source material as. Power Rangers and and you can
30:36
absolutely feel that. In so there's there's a
30:40
transformation sequence that happens.
30:42
Everyone has their own colour and the villains are so power
30:46
rangery villains. They're like these very
30:49
two-dimensional. You don't get a lot of motive
30:51
from them. They're just here to do the bad
30:53
things. Yeah, yeah.
30:57
And there's lots of like. The, the woman with the big
31:00
ball, she's like, constantly widget queen.
31:03
Beryl. Yeah.
31:05
Beryl yeah. You know when you were talking
31:09
about the name change before, when you're on about this being
31:13
the first kind of Would you say it was like one of the first
31:17
anime for girls? Yeah, I would say, well, it's
31:20
not one of the first. So they there are other animes
31:22
that come before this that are for girls then, but it but
31:26
there's like this huge dip in the market that happens in the
31:30
80s where none of them are very popular or very good.
31:34
Yeah. And then suddenly Sailor Moon
31:36
comes along and it's not the first magical girl anime, but it
31:39
is one of the best. So it just, it just like picks
31:44
up the genre and goes, hey girls, look at this.
31:46
You could have fights too. Yeah, because I'm just thinking
31:49
that that might be the reason why they changed all the names
31:53
and they tried so hard to localise it to Western values at
32:00
the time. I don't know.
32:01
I'm I'm trying to pick my words carefully, but like they're
32:05
trying to make it appeal to the West as much as possible because
32:08
it's it's still earlyish days and it 9095.
32:14
Yeah, yeah. And it's, and there is a thing,
32:17
there is an interesting thing that happens with censorship and
32:21
audiences. Different countries have
32:22
different qualifications for what age you can show shows to
32:29
and you see it in you see it now in like it, it happens in
32:34
reverse where we're exporting media into into the East into
32:39
like Chinese and Asian markets where some stuff does get
32:43
censored, like a lot like, like a lot of physical like.
32:46
If you ever watch a Korean K drama, which I don't know if you
32:50
have watched a lot of but I have become obsessed with lately, you
32:55
don't ever really see a lot of like physical.
32:57
It's not like Game of Thrones where everyone's like sexy
33:01
timesing and like, sometimes you're like, Oh my God, I hope
33:03
my mum doesn't walk in right now, like.
33:06
A lot of the romance happens through like looks and glances
33:09
or or kind of off camera. There's like a different and I
33:14
think get. Stuff exported over.
33:16
And I only know this because I've got a friend in China who I
33:18
was talking to about it, where he was watching something and he
33:20
was like, they've cut out all the sex scenes, but they, you
33:27
know. But that's what happens in order
33:30
to keep your audience age range, because if you're targeting
33:33
something for a very specific audience, you have to meet
33:36
certain censorship requirements. And it's the same with So Disney
33:42
when they. Exported beast.
33:44
Beauty and the Beast the live action there's a gay kiss that
33:46
happens at the end and two men dancing on the dance floor
33:50
together. It's Gaston's little friend.
33:53
Who's that? The the candle and the.
33:57
No, Gaston. The bad guy You.
33:58
Know he's got like a chubby, chubby buddy.
34:01
Oh yeah. Yeah, so they've made.
34:04
Him gay in the live action he has like a waltz at the end with
34:08
a fella and a kiss and that get that gets cut out in some
34:12
countries because that's just not not it doesn't meet the
34:15
censorship requirements yeah I mean.
34:19
Yeah, it's, it's for the for the audience, it's even even the
34:23
wrestling and I mean, the women wrestlers have to wear full
34:27
covers where obviously if it's in the West, it's like wear what
34:32
you want kind of within within certain reasons, Yeah, but and
34:37
wrestlers of both. Genders will wear very little,
34:40
yeah. Yeah, yeah, so I do.
34:43
Think there is. There's something interesting.
34:45
There's also something for me about the history of
34:48
representation from the queer community and queer characters.
34:51
What stories are you allowed to be part of which is?
34:56
Also interesting. Yeah, so that's why I that's my
35:01
build for Sailor Moon. How gay is it?
35:04
Super gay. And we should love that about it
35:06
because I think. It adds to it.
35:08
And also, if you would rather watch the Kissing Cousins
35:11
version, that's on you. So apparently I'll watch that
35:17
version. I've got a question for you, but
35:20
it's so this was your first weekly.
35:24
Do you think there's a there's a 2026 equivalent or do you think
35:29
you need a 2036 equivalent? Do you know I was?
35:33
Thinking about this so because. One of the things that I was
35:36
thinking about is like gendered anime.
35:41
So you have shown in and showed. You manga and shown in and
35:45
showed you anime one's targeted towards girls, 1's targeted
35:49
towards boys. Though that's still a thing
35:52
that's still be like you still get that kind of gender targeted
35:56
anime being made. And.
36:01
I think you don't get like I'm trying to think of like there
36:06
are animes where you get like really cool bad ass women like
36:09
in Kaiju #8. Not that I want to keep going on
36:12
about it, but Or even One Punch Man.
36:16
You've got some like really bad ass women in One Punch Man My.
36:21
Hero Academia so you do get. That kind of girls fighting, but
36:25
those very much are in the kind of the world of this is targeted
36:28
for boys kind of thing. So I think there is like I think
36:33
it's. Different now and I also.
36:34
Think that it's more common for girls to watch Shonen Jump
36:39
anime? Than it maybe was in the. 90s,
36:43
yeah. Yeah, I get that.
36:45
How should you? Face so I.
36:47
Do think that's the? Thing as well, but like like a
36:52
modern equivalent. I don't know.
36:53
I don't think anything is going to ever be equivalent to, say,
36:56
the moon, because it's it's its own phenomenon that.
37:00
That's for you though, wouldn't it be?
37:03
That that would be your own for for you in people your age
37:07
range. Obviously I'm much younger than
37:09
you. So, but yeah, I'll just, I'm
37:12
much younger. I'd like to give around you,
37:24
yeah. Yeah.
37:26
I don't know if I'd. Say my son who's 5, if he would
37:30
have a have an equivalent, I would like to think that he
37:33
does, but I don't think it would be on my radar personally.
37:38
Yeah, well, you're. Watching one punch with him,
37:40
aren't you? No.
37:43
I'm not. Watching Punch Man, No, he will
37:46
ruin it. He likes, yeah.
37:48
He likes Totally Spies. Can you remember that?
37:53
I love Totally Spies, Yeah. And that is a great.
37:56
That's another Western version of this.
37:58
Yeah. Because that's.
38:00
What I thought he he loves watching stuff like that and
38:04
obviously Pokémon Concierge as well.
38:08
But I don't think, yeah, I don't think, I don't know if there has
38:13
much representation or specific representation.
38:16
It's just no well. It's funny you should say that,
38:20
so I looked up what other characters?
38:25
Are there in? So in the 90s.
38:29
And. Well, in the 80s and 90s.
38:31
What other kind of openly gay characters did we have in
38:34
cartoons and anime? Oh, OK.
38:38
And we've got so Arthur. Do you remember Arthur the
38:42
Aardvark, Mr. Nigel? Ratburn.
38:45
Actually has a gay marriage in an episode.
38:50
Right, so. Openly gay character.
38:52
And they and the kids talk about it and they work out what it
38:55
means to be gay so that. So I don't think I count not not
39:00
his his marriage, because that was set in 2019.
39:05
He may have been careful, but he wasn't openly gay then.
39:08
So he was 1996. Is when it first airs.
39:12
But you're right, the the marriage episode.
39:14
The marriage episode doesn't happen until 2019.
39:17
Yeah, yeah, we. There's also another.
39:21
Anime called Bubble Gum crisis. I've heard of that.
39:24
Which which has a. Which is a girls with guns kind
39:29
of action anime. It's quite it has its moments.
39:35
Daily Wong. So this is in 1987.
39:37
Daily Wong is like a kind of sympathetically presented gay
39:41
character. You also have There's a
39:50
character in Card Captor Sakura who is often thought to be gay,
39:56
who's like a kind of warm, gentle character who's friends
39:59
with the brother I. Think or the love interest and
40:03
he's like. But he's in a room.
40:06
So there's it's Yukito who's in a relationship with Tuya.
40:12
And on the website they say yes, he is officially gay even.
40:15
And I think there's also some. There's some westernisation that
40:18
happens there as well where that he gets referred to as their
40:21
best friend, which feels very much like when you're reading
40:24
Old Victorian, like, oh, it was. They were lifelong companions.
40:29
Very good. Roommates.
40:32
Yeah. Yeah.
40:33
Yeah, it's weird. They've only there's only one
40:35
room in the house, but they're they live together.
40:41
There's also. There's also car caps Secure
40:45
also has like an intersex character called UA You.
40:50
Have general blue so. Talking of Dragon Ball, General
40:54
Blue is. A a Nazi, but he's an
40:59
economically gay Nazi. He also makes an.
41:04
Appearance in Dragon Ball GT and then you also have Otto Kasuki
41:08
who is in Dragon Ball Z who is what is?
41:13
Described as a. Stereotypical gay, right?
41:17
Who appears in the 28th World Martial Arts Tournament and he
41:23
freaks Goten and Trunks out with his flirtations, which means
41:28
he's gay and hitting on kids well.
41:32
Or. You have.
41:36
You know. There are, oh, gargoyles.
41:38
Do you remember gargoyles? I love gargoyles.
41:42
Yeah. So do you remember?
41:43
Lexington the little gargoyle. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:47
Yeah, so he is confirmed. By the creator, Greg Weissman as
41:51
being gay. No way.
41:53
He's a gay character. Yeah, yeah, he never.
41:55
He's never really mentioned openly in the show, but Greg
41:59
Weissman has been on record to say, yeah, Lexington is gay.
42:04
There's also Hey Arnold. Do you?
42:06
Did you ever watch Hey Arnold? Hey Arnold, that is.
42:10
There's a character. Called Eugene.
42:11
Horowitz and I, this is. Do you remember Eugene?
42:17
So and I. Kind of like this.
42:18
The creators, the show's creator, Craig Bartlett,
42:22
describes him as a proto gay. Which I kind of love because
42:26
because this is a thing with kids, right?
42:28
So I think there's a thing that happens with kids where you have
42:31
like adultification, where we put adult mindsets onto children
42:36
before they're ready because we're looking at it through an
42:39
adult lens. So lots of people might say oh
42:42
Eugene's a gay character, but the the creator instead prefers
42:46
to refer to him as a proto gay, which is that he's he's not gay
42:50
yet because his sexuality hasn't shown up yet, but he is someone
42:53
who will become gay so. He loves musical theatre and
42:58
he's just a wonderful guy. That's what that's what the
43:01
creator says about him. So it's like the idea of him,
43:04
like at the moment he hasn't got a.
43:06
Sexuality. He's a kid.
43:08
Yeah, yeah. And I kind of.
43:10
That's like a. Level of sophistication to this,
43:12
which I kind of enjoy. But also in Hey Arnold, do you
43:15
have Mr. Robert Simmons? Who?
43:19
Is openly. Gay in the show I never.
43:23
I never. Fucked on that.
43:24
I used to watch that quite a lot as well.
43:29
There's a show called. Outlaw Star, that's another
43:31
anime. They've got a character, Fred
43:33
Luo Kunzai we've talked about with Zoci, so that's where.
43:41
Zoci is. Changed into a woman so that
43:45
their relationship in the West becomes a heterosexual one.
43:48
But in the original they're both men.
43:51
You have Fisheye who is the cross effeminate cross dresser
43:56
and you also have in the Sailor Moon R the movie, you have a
44:00
character called Fiore who is a distant friend of Tuxedo Mask
44:07
and decides to kidnap Tuxedo Mask for himself in fear that
44:13
Asagi will abandoned him at some point.
44:17
So there's a kind of like a yeah, kind of.
44:22
Right, Slightly weirdly possessive thing.
44:24
Obviously you've got South Park 1997 Big Gayle.
44:30
And we all. Remember Big Gayle?
44:32
And we all remember his song, so yeah.
44:38
And actually, absolutely not. And there's actually South Park,
44:45
there's a whole load for South Park.
44:47
Satan and Saddam Hussein are both in a gay relationship.
44:52
And I think we can take this. This is one that really
44:54
surprised me, 1983, which I think it might be one of the
44:58
earliest gay, openly gay characters in a cartoon.
45:04
Super Ted. There's a character called
45:07
Skeleton who is one of Texas Pete's two hench men.
45:12
So he's, he's a. Living very cowardly skeleton
45:15
who behaves in a very effeminate manner.
45:18
And again, the series creator has confirmed yes, that is a
45:22
he's a he's a gay skeleton. Yeah.
45:25
Is that? Is that an implied gay until
45:29
he's legal? That would be kind of job, I
45:34
think so, yeah. There and.
45:37
Also, you have the cartoon. The ambiguously gay duo and I
45:41
don't know if you've ever seen the ambiguously gay duo.
45:43
It's quite funny. They they basically solve
45:46
ambiguously gay crimes and the main characters are Ace and
45:51
Gary. What about?
45:54
Jesse and James from Pokémon. So I've always thought.
45:58
James Absolutely. Right.
46:05
But yeah, and also both. Both.
46:08
Cross dressed no well. Actually that was a lot censored
46:12
out the episode where So there was an episode where James had a
46:18
pair of fake breasts on and obviously he didn't have his and
46:23
a fancy Victorian gown. Yeah, I remember that.
46:29
Yeah, it was it. Was it was banned?
46:31
So. So yeah, so that's my list from
46:36
the 90s and. Of and then you also have
46:37
characters like Waylon Smithers from The Simpsons, Dewey Largo
46:41
from The Simpsons. I was again, a lot of those,
46:46
those, oh, sorry, I I was thinking as well.
46:52
Button clay. One piece on clay.
46:56
Yes, I. Know.
46:57
He's sexuality is not exploring what I've seen anyway.
47:02
But he is a cross dressing person that doesn't identify as
47:08
male or female. Yeah.
47:11
And that would have been one. Piece came out 90 sevens, or at
47:15
least the early 2000s. Yeah, it.
47:19
Is in the early SO. He's in my list for for the
47:22
2000s character, right? Yeah.
47:28
As well as Do you remember drawn.
47:29
Together. That was.
47:33
Hot like so funny but so inappropriate and horrible.
47:38
The jokes are so so awful. Like you could not tell half of
47:42
them now, but they. Also have Zandir.
47:47
Yes. Zandir E before.
47:48
Bottom the M elf it was like. A a send up.
47:52
The a send up of like Link from the Legend of Zelda kind of
47:57
character. Yeah, I forgot about that.
48:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's also because I was
48:09
researching. Like different gay like gay
48:11
characters in animation and some of the name some of the names
48:15
of. These.
48:16
These anime, there's Queer Duck with the main character, Adam
48:23
Seymour Duckstein, it's the main character.
48:26
There's also Rick and Steve, the happiest gay couple in all the
48:29
world, which is actually quite a cute series from what I
48:31
remember. And obviously Rick and Steve
48:34
were in it. So yeah, there are loads.
48:36
There are absolutely loads. It's out.
48:40
There the representations. Out there, whether or not you
48:43
censor it for a Western audience, yeah.
48:48
Yeah. There we go.
48:53
So. In terms of sailor.
48:56
Moon we've talked a bit about. The kind of gay history of it,
48:59
we talked about the westernisation.
49:02
What was your overall impression of the anime?
49:07
So will you be watching past episode?
49:09
3. I don't think now that you know
49:12
how important it was. For so many queer little girls.
49:16
Oh, don't say that, because you already.
49:17
Know me answer because I've already told you so.
49:22
I recognize it's. Important, but I will not be
49:26
watching past episode 3 mainly because it's it's not my it's
49:33
not my thing. It's not your target, or you're
49:35
not the target. Audience, I'm at the age where I
49:38
do not. Want to see 14 year old girls
49:41
fight crime? Fighting crime and lusting after
49:48
boys and it's kind. Of I don't know, it's kind of
49:52
aged weirdly. So this is my first time
49:55
watching. You have the benefit of those
49:58
tinted glasses and nostalgia eyes.
50:01
I don't. So I've kind of made my while
50:06
watching it, I was actually jotting down notes of what was
50:09
happening and what me thoughts were and read.
50:14
Me some of your peak notes. Which so?
50:19
Well, I've come up with titles because I can't remember what
50:21
the actual titles are. So episode 1 is Timo Jewelry?
50:26
Yeah. Episode 2 is.
50:28
Incel cord and episode 3 is chloroform flower trick.
50:36
No. OK yeah, I mean I'll go through
50:42
it. And episode 1, Timo Jewelry
50:45
Usagi gets gets to stop all the mums in the city under the
50:49
control of Timo Jewelry. Tuxedo guy shows off for one
50:52
minute, tells her not to be a crybaby from a window, fucks
50:56
off, and she punches the demon lady.
51:01
Episode 1 Episode. 2 is insell cards.
51:05
Usagi gets a fortune, boys, and Oh yeah, and she kicks a.
51:12
Shoe at the mask. Tuxedo, I assume because it's
51:16
the reoccurring character, the boy guy.
51:19
Oh, sorry man, that I found out. And which I suppose I'll be
51:23
pissed off if someone chose Darren Shields, but yeah, he
51:28
justified. He gets pissed off and uminu the
51:31
guy with the the glasses and gets hypnotized so he can do
51:37
whatever he wants without fear in brackets could go in silly
51:41
and spoiler. And he does.
51:44
Usagi's dogged. Doesn't know his daughter is out
51:47
at the city at midnight. Bad dad and the nerdy guy
51:52
upskirts a teacher because she said he couldn't come to school
51:56
out of uniform. All the boys turn into proper
51:58
knobs. Usagi returns to the House of
52:00
Fortune Moon prison power make up Lads lads Lads confront
52:06
storyteller lady and army of lads creep in Asterix Creepy
52:11
army of lads because they look lecherous.
52:13
Tuxedo Mask nips in to say believe in yourself then fucks
52:17
off a second later. Lobs Usagi lobs the tiara at the
52:21
future. Teller and lads go back to Norma
52:26
consequence free. Love that.
52:30
That's important, though, in a monster of the.
52:32
Week everything has to return. To like this is the fate, a
52:35
feature of 90s stories everything has to return to?
52:39
Yeah. Everything.
52:40
Has to turn to net zero. Yeah, I was just thinking, oh,
52:45
how did they? Come back from the weird.
52:47
Upskirting thing and it's just like everyone's forgot.
52:49
Sorry. Next week in it, Chlorophyll
52:53
Pharaoh to Usagi listens to a weird, weird radio program
52:58
that's not actually a radio program where a guy's reading
53:00
out love letters anonymously. Find a letter from the teacher.
53:05
Sleeping sickness is mentioned. Miss Haruna is late and
53:09
knackered. She's got a massive flower
53:11
brooch and masked tuxedo. Guy in normal form is a Dick.
53:17
These are notes, just not what happens if Saggy tries to write
53:20
a love letter for a future, Be it boyfriend fails a 14 year old
53:25
rocks up to a radio station at midnight and gets turned away.
53:29
In Bracket's surprise, Usagi's maid gets a flower, they all
53:33
buff it and fall asleep. We had Tuxedo Mask dream bodies
53:38
are siphoning women's dreams of love or something.
53:43
Yeah, gives Usagi a pen to change your appearance, but you
53:47
have to yell moon power so it's pretty shit for stealth.
53:51
She disrupts the show. Eddie, Mary revealed and who is
53:56
Jadeite? And the flower blossom Blass,
54:00
who I can't remember her name. He's the guy collecting stuff.
54:03
Usagi chins the last with the brooch.
54:06
Jadeite stops the tiara. Usagi cries.
54:10
Tuxedo masks chucks of rose at them.
54:13
They both run away. Of all the boys in this lame
54:16
teacher is back, everyone's awake.
54:18
The end. That's the first 3 episodes.
54:21
Nice. That's pretty good summary, to
54:24
be honest. Yeah, yeah.
54:28
So I also so I did watch this with Bruce.
54:30
Didn't hit glasses. And I would say that even with
54:34
Roast into glasses, I got to episode 4, I watched the end of
54:36
episode 4 and then was like, OK, I think I'm done with the
54:39
nostalgia now. So I think it doesn't really
54:44
hold up against modern anime in terms of story and stuff.
54:48
I mean, the monster of the week is always fun.
54:50
I do wish that we had like a good modern version of that,
54:56
but. Along with that comes.
54:58
A kind of like like stringiness to plot, yeah.
55:03
I mean. Yeah, it was 92.
55:07
Yeah. It there's the same.
55:09
Moral standards won't won't stand up to today.
55:14
I mean, it was what? And they shouldn't.
55:16
We should. Have we should?
55:17
Have moved, we should have moved on in both technology like
55:20
appearance of animation and in the stories that we are telling
55:25
ideally, I mean some, some stories will forever remain
55:29
appealing, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
55:35
That's great. So thank.
55:37
You for letting me indulge in the B part of the LGBTQIA plus
55:43
community and do Sailor Moon. Thanks for.
55:47
Introducing us to us and tell us facts, because I wouldn't have
55:51
known this, any of this. That's fine, and I just.
55:55
I do. I do think it's funny.
55:56
I think, yeah, that like I like it doesn't make me angry the way
56:00
it would have done as a younger. As a younger person now, I just
56:05
find it interesting, like the the stuff that we, the stuff
56:09
that we choose to cut out when to protect the young.
56:14
It's because. That.
56:15
Kind of thinking is such a disconnect from reality now,
56:20
yeah. That it shouldn't.
56:22
I mean I. Mean, I like to think we'll get
56:24
pissed off. But.
56:26
I think, yeah, I'd like, I mean. Obviously there there will
56:29
always be a need to have conscious dialogue and fight the
56:32
good fight and there's still work we've got to do.
56:35
But I think when we look at stories.
56:38
Like this from the. 90s you realise that?
56:42
Actually you can be. Optimistic about the world that
56:44
some you know that some some narratives have moved on and
56:47
that's a really beautiful thing and along with that a vapourwave
56:54
colour scheme will always be appealing along with a super,
56:57
super catchy tune. So what are we going to do next
57:05
week, Chris? What theme are we going to have
57:08
really put you on the? Spot.
57:09
Yeah, because this has. Been recorded in advance and I
57:12
don't know, yeah. But where?
57:15
Will people be able to find out on our Instagram and Facebook?
57:19
Definitely. So the links will.
57:21
Be down below the links will be. Down below.
57:26
Keep an eye out on. Our socials to find.
57:28
Out what what theme will be doing next week and what Chris
57:32
and I will do to fight. For the right to choose, it will
57:36
probably involve Lee. Probably will involve.
57:40
Me, because I think what Chris and I have realized is that
57:42
neither of us are, well, actually I think I am quite
57:44
competitive. But I think I'm just.
57:48
Bad at thinking up. Games and I don't think you are
57:52
that competitive, but you will cheat if left unsupervised.
57:59
Yeah. So we need, we need someone who
58:02
is good at thinking up games and a good adjudicator for fairness.
58:06
And that happens to be Lee, with his beautiful sense of internal
58:09
justice. And so, yeah, very.
58:13
Easily. Manipulated.
58:14
By me because we want to be best friends.
58:15
So I'm OK with this. You say manipulated.
58:19
You asked him for a favour and he's like, yeah.
58:21
And then, yeah, he's amazing. And ends up counting.
58:25
How many Jelly beans? One hand 1 by 1 into a jar?
58:30
Yep. 871 Jelly beans. Something like that.
58:35
Yeah. Yeah.
58:37
Thank you, Lee, for the favour that you don't know you're going
58:40
to do for us. Yeah.
58:41
We'll catch you later next week. Bye, everyone.
58:45
Bye. Bye.