Latest / The Talent Trade / Becoming a Legal Eagle

Transcript

Becoming a Legal Eagle · The Talent Trade

0:07
Stephanie Maas: Hello and welcome to The Talent Trade. I
0:11
am your host. Stephanie Maas, partner with ThinkingAhead
0:14
Executive Search, and today, I am super jazzed to have one of
0:19
the best of the best in the business with us today. Jenn
0:23
White joined our firm three years ago. She came out of the
0:28
gates swinging. She broke our 20 plus year top first year record,
0:34
and has been a top producer every year since then in the
0:37
legal recruiting space. Super happy to have you with us and
0:40
Jenn, I'll let you tell us a little bit more about you and
0:43
your niche, and then we'll dive into our topic.
0:45
Jennifer White: Thank you so much. Steph, yes, I joined three
0:49
years ago in the legal space. I have been in sales and marketing
0:54
for, I would say, my entire career, in one aspect or the
0:57
other. And I love recruiting for law firms and for attorneys.
1:03
It's a great group of people to get to know and to chat with.
1:06
Most attorneys are networkers at heart, because they have their
1:10
own kind of sense of book of business that they're trying to
1:13
build. So in ways, we kind of line up in that in that sense.
1:16
So I really, really enjoyed it. We have a wonderful team, and my
1:20
coworkers on my team I just love so I feel very blessed to be
1:23
here.
1:24
Stephanie Maas: We're super, super thankful to have you. So
1:28
today, Jenn, my understanding is you are going to lead us through
1:31
a little bit of a discussion as it relates to partnership versus
1:37
vendor, all that stuff in the legal recruiting business.
1:42
Jennifer White: So a lot of times, the way that things work
1:45
when you are in the legal recruiting field is there's
1:48
different types of ways that you can partner with law firms. The
1:51
law firms are considered the client and the attorneys are
1:55
considered the candidate. And if you can kind of liken it a
1:57
little bit to real estate, where the clients are the sellers, and
2:01
then the candidates are the buyers. So what you're trying to
2:05
do is get to know your clients, your firms, as much as possible,
2:10
and be able to have the respect that they would be calling you.
2:13
So what I thought would be a good idea is to kind of go
2:17
through the steps of how to get to be at the desk in the C suite
2:22
with these firms. So there's different types of searches that
2:25
you have. You can start out with a contingent search, which
2:28
basically means they have a need, and they're sending it out
2:32
to all the recruiters out there and candidates alike. Sometimes
2:36
it will be posted on their on their firm websites. That's a
2:39
little bit like acting like you're a sports agent, so you
2:42
have the talent, and you're kind of shopping them around to each
2:46
of these firms. So that's that's the contingent basis. Everyone
2:50
has the same shot at the person that you are working with, the
2:53
candidate. So the good thing about that is that you have a
2:56
lot of shots on goal. You can have this candidate go out to
3:00
different types of firms. However, there's no guarantee
3:03
that you're going to get paid, so sometimes what you do is
3:06
you'll try to have that firm, a firm in particular, be a client
3:11
that you want to have a retained search with. And what that means
3:16
is that you're identifying a firm that you feel like has
3:19
great opportunities. Because I think that's one thing, is
3:22
identifying which firms you want to work with is just as key as
3:27
them identifying which recruiters. Because if you have
3:30
a search that no one wants, and it's a it's a dog search, then
3:33
you're really kind of shitting yourself in the foot. Because
3:36
even though you may get money up front, you are probably not
3:39
going to get the rest of that money, because it's a really
3:41
difficult sign. So when you identify the firm and you
3:46
realize that it's a great firm that you want to work with,
3:48
that's number one. But you have to make sure that the firm's
3:51
good. You're going to have a successful search. It's actually
3:54
something that people are going to want to join. That's kind of
3:56
what I think it's important for people to realize you don't just
3:58
want to work with anyone. And then the approach of how you
4:01
want to work with these firms can be either you identified
4:06
them and you've never worked with them and never placed with
4:08
them, but you've always known about them, and you're going to
4:11
pitch that routine search right off the bat. Then there's the
4:15
way that you have worked with them in the contingent side.
4:17
That's kind of how I like to do it, because you kind of want to
4:19
work and you kind of want to place somebody at these firms.
4:22
You want to know the entire process from start to finish,
4:26
because when you're going to retain search, you're really
4:28
promising them that they will find the talent they're paying
4:31
you, and it's only you searching for them. So knowing the ins and
4:34
out of that firm, I think, is really important. So the
4:36
approach would be, in my opinion, work with them on a
4:41
contingent basis. Then if you want to go in and then have the
4:44
retained basis, you kind of understand some bumps up front,
4:47
and you're not kind of setting yourself up for disappointment.
4:50
But that being said, it's definitely fine to go ahead and
4:55
pitch for the retained if it's a firm that you feel like you want
4:58
to work with and you feel like it's a great shot. So I don't
5:00
want to sway anyone that way. But my approach, I like to kind
5:03
of go with the contingent and then retained, and then once you
5:07
do have that ability to partner with a firm, it's really great
5:12
to make sure that you know who the key players are. A lot of
5:15
times in these firms, especially with legal, they always use
5:20
recruiter, so there'll be an in house recruiter that you might
5:23
have the the initial conversations with, which is
5:27
great. They're usually really good at what they do. They're
5:30
going to be able to lead you down the path and have your
5:32
pitch kick off. But what I would recommend too, is having the
5:36
discussion with them that if things are getting a little
5:38
sticky, a little hairy, you're bringing in some candidates that
5:41
you feel like they should be hiring, and it's not going well.
5:45
Make sure you have the ability to reach out to the managing
5:48
partners one on one, because sometimes things just get lost
5:52
in a shuffle. Sometimes, you know, playing operator, what you
5:55
think you're hearing, and what you think with and what they're
5:57
saying might not be exactly coming across. So you just want
6:02
to make sure that you have a clear line to the decision
6:05
makers. Definitely talk to the people that you're supposed to
6:08
talk to. You don't want to go around anyone's back, but make
6:11
sure that if things are not going as well as planned, that
6:14
you do have the ability to go right to the horse's mouth and
6:18
the decision maker. And then the other thing too that's important
6:21
to focus on when you are partnering with a firm is
6:24
maintaining those objectives and maintaining the satisfaction
6:28
level that that you were promising them. If you feel like
6:31
there's something that's happening that is not going well
6:35
either, whether or not the candidate is you're not being
6:37
able to find the candidates. Because that's one thing too
6:40
that can be a little bit nerve wracking. You can get these
6:42
pitches. You can be at the table with them. You can tell them,
6:45
hey, I'm going to be able to find this candidate. Don't
6:48
worry. And you go out there and it's just the toughest search
6:52
that you could ever work on. Be honest and let them know you're
6:56
going to be showing your work. You're going to be showing your
6:58
efforts. You're going to be having your bi weekly meetings
7:01
with them, telling Hey, I've made 100 calls this week. I've
7:05
had this reaction to this search. And I think the other
7:09
thing too is making sure that you feel honest enough to give
7:11
them that honest feedback. Sometimes, you know, a managing
7:15
partner may be really difficult to work with, and they have a
7:18
reputation that could be something that you find out
7:23
after you already signed the dotted line and gotten your
7:26
retained deposit down. So you just want to make sure that
7:30
you're always just tactfully showing them what it is that
7:34
they need to say. Because look, if they know the managing
7:36
partner, might be difficult. They never were told that. So
7:40
either way, good news, bad news, I think, is also what you want
7:44
to do in order to maintain that relationship with them. Think
7:47
the other thing too is, is that sometimes things may not work
7:50
out as well as you had hoped. So you have to remember that there
7:54
might be a time for you to pivot away from that relationship, in
7:58
a sense. So if that's the case, just make sure you're not
8:01
burning any bridges. Do your best that you can do. I think
8:05
the other thing too is helping to have that communication of
8:10
how often you should be communicating with them during
8:13
the search, if you are doing everything that you could if
8:16
they wanted you to get them all this information. And it didn't
8:19
go well, still, I think the thing that you can always do is
8:21
just say, hey, you know what? I respect you guys. I think that
8:25
I've tapped the market out. Maybe it's time for you guys to
8:28
go find another recruiter that you feel like might have a fresh
8:31
eye. So it's just kind of important to make sure that you
8:35
also have that ability to kind of part ways and not have to
8:39
always just hang on to that one particular client, because once
8:42
you do sit at that table, you're going to be having a lot of time
8:45
and effort from your own desk searching for this particular
8:49
search. So you just want to make sure that you're still able to
8:52
keep some things, some irons in the fire while you're busy with
8:55
that.
8:55
Stephanie Maas: Super cool. I'm gonna go back and ask a couple
8:57
questions along the way that I think might be super helpful. I
9:01
know a lot of folks get pushed back from internal talent
9:05
acquisition folks about working directly with the hiring
9:08
manager, and I would imagine, especially in your niche, with
9:11
attorneys billing by the hour with some of the language, or
9:14
what are some of the ways that you're able to kind of break
9:18
through that internal stiff farm to really get the time and
9:21
attention of the decision makers.
9:25
Jennifer White: I think that for one if you are exhausting the
9:31
limit to where you are with that one particular person who you're
9:35
supposed to quote, unquote, be working with, if you feel like
9:38
things are just not going well that I have in in the past, just
9:42
reached out directly to that managing partner. Don't worry
9:47
about it. Email them say, Hey, I think that there's been a couple
9:51
of miscommunications. Or hey, this candidate seems to be add
9:56
everything that you have looked for. I'm not sure why things
9:59
aren't progressing. The way that they should. I would love just
10:02
to bend your ear five minutes at the most. Can you let me know
10:07
if, after hours I could, I could have a conversation with you.
10:10
That's usually when they'll be a little bit more receptive. I
10:14
mean, what I did have this conversation, it was at 730 at
10:17
night. I didn't care. They didn't care. But it was kind of
10:21
meeting them where they needed to be. I think that that's the
10:24
other thing too, is give them the opportunity to kind of be
10:27
outside of work hours to talk.
10:30
Stephanie Maas: And then when you do that, do you ever get
10:33
that proverbial slap on the wrist saying, Hey, I told you
10:36
not to communicate with them. And if so, how do you handle
10:39
that?
10:40
Jennifer White: So I haven't actually had that with a
10:43
retained search situation, so I can go to the contingency in a
10:48
second. But when I'm working as a retained search, I feel like
10:52
they understand that my job is to get the candidate the right
10:57
candidate. So I apologized in the sentence I said, I'm sorry
11:02
if I'm stepping on any toes. I just want to let you know I'm
11:06
going to have a conversation with XYZ tonight at 730 You guys
11:10
are amazing. I will make you look great when I'm talking to
11:13
him. Don't worry. Alleviated any sense of gosh, they just start
11:17
getting it, um, I just said to them, Hey, don't worry. I'm
11:20
going to be your biggest fan, but I'm here. I want to make you
11:22
look good, so I'm going to go right to them and see what the
11:25
situation is. From the standpoint of, yes, I've had my
11:29
hand slot a couple of times on not many but like, you don't
11:33
mean to do it. Sometimes it's by accident. You don't realize the
11:36
protocol. And when that happens, they can just say, Hey, this is
11:39
your one chance. We understand that you didn't understand that
11:42
you shouldn't be contacting them. But when that happens, you
11:45
know, it happens a lot. Honestly, I think that they're
11:48
kind of used to recruiters. I mean, look, we're sales people.
11:52
You have to have a certain assertiveness in your
11:54
personality to begin with. You don't want to do it all the
11:57
time. But if it's, if it's something that you feel like is,
12:00
you know, gonna, gonna let it a fire for this particular
12:02
candidate to come in. Then, you know, you just gotta kind of ask
12:05
for forgiveness instead of permission, sometimes.
12:08
Stephanie Maas: Absolutely. And then going back to something
12:10
else you said earlier about, you know, identifying the kind of
12:13
companies that you want to work with, you know, it's one thing
12:16
when you've been in a niche for a while, and you know
12:19
reputations of organizations. You know, reputations, but when
12:22
you're newer, how do you determine, you know, hey, what
12:26
are some key identifiers I'm going to look for when taking a
12:30
new search or looking for a new partnership?
12:33
Jennifer White: When you're starting out in the legal
12:35
industry, I think it's smart first of all, to have a
12:38
geographical area that you're working with because that that
12:41
will just kind of keep your knowledge as you're making these
12:44
calls, connecting with either managing partners, other
12:46
recruiters, other attorneys. They're going to know people
12:49
more. So you kind of want to just dive into those
12:52
conversations, make those calls, ask about certain firms from
12:57
people that you see had worked there and left. How did you
13:01
leave? Was it on good terms? If you kind of get the sense that
13:04
people leave on good terms a lot, and that it was more just
13:08
kind of an opportunistic I kind of hit my ceiling, then you'll
13:11
kind of get a sense to, hey, you know what? That firm actually
13:14
isn't a bad firm. They're not because you'll, you'll hear the
13:17
bad firms better than, more than the the good firms, the good
13:20
firms, you know, it's almost like, if there's nothing said,
13:23
then that's kind of a good that's a good talent pool to
13:25
kind of, you know, to recruit for it. But I think also, most
13:29
of these firms should be doing a good job of selling themselves
13:33
to recruiters, because they rely on us. So what I'll do is, I'll
13:37
call the director of the recruiting and I'll say, because
13:40
the managing partners really don't have, I mean, they're not
13:43
really there to sell to candidates necessarily. They're
13:46
there to sell to their clients, to get the book of business. So
13:49
from that standpoint, they do have a pretty good pitch. But
13:52
from a culture standpoint, from a benefit standpoint, from a
13:56
path to partnership standpoint, most of the legal firms around
14:00
the United States especially, have the ability to give you
14:03
even a marketing pitch book. They'll give it to you, and
14:05
they'll say, This is what makes us different. These are the type
14:08
of clients. This is the path to partnership. And you'll end up
14:12
learning about these firms. And then you choose what you like,
14:16
you know like, personally, when I heard about a firm that said,
14:20
hey, you know what we're we're boutique, but we're kind of
14:23
California chic, where we come in, we're allowed to wear jeans
14:28
as long as we look professional. You know, we work hard, we play
14:31
hard. That's kind of my mentality. So it's easy for me
14:35
to understand the benefits of that. Now, if I were to go to a
14:39
firm that's like, listen, we're super buttoned up. We stay here
14:42
for 1720, years. I can sell it, sure, but it's easier to kind of
14:46
know what firm I would want to be working for, and then that's
14:50
kind of how I decide, because you just have that passion about
14:53
it, and you can tell when you're kind of selling it to a
14:55
candidate. So it's kind of, I think, get your own taste and
14:59
your own person. Aspect of it, if you like, it'll be easier.
15:02
Stephanie Maas: Very cool, super helpful. Have you ever kind of
15:05
said, Hey, I've done everything I could try to leave it the best
15:09
way you can, and then after a period of time, come back to
15:12
work with them again?
15:14
Jennifer White: Definitely. So there were a couple of firms
15:18
that I was just in their back pocket texting. I was their
15:22
number one kind of, you know, reach out to then I kind of got
15:27
busier with some other things going on. So it kind of
15:32
gradually just drifted away. There was no reason. There was
15:37
no hard feelings. But you just, kind of, you kind of went your
15:40
way. I just pick up the phone and call them. We have them, and
15:43
say, Hey, long time. No Talk. Listen, I see this search. Tell
15:47
me about it. You just, kind of just keep it pragmatic, you
15:51
know. Don't be like, Hey, I'm so sorry. We weren't taught it's
15:53
business, you know. So you just go back if you feel like you
15:56
find something, and you found something on that they have out
16:00
on their searches, or if they sent an email about, hey, we
16:02
need help, you just kind of dive back in. I mean, you're going to
16:06
have different pools that you're going to hang out with
16:09
throughout your entire career, hopefully, if you have a long
16:11
career here. So that's just going to kind of happen I think.
16:14
Stephanie Maas: Anything else we have not talked about that you
16:17
think might be helpful for the good of our listeners?
16:20
Jennifer White: I think one of the things that we have to
16:25
remember as recruiters is there's enough to go around. I
16:31
think that, you know, people can get a little bit territorial
16:35
and, you know, they get a little bit like, they'll just kind of
16:39
throw the resumes out there and not really care about whether or
16:42
not it's the right fit. I think that we all, just as recruiters,
16:45
have to remember that we're all trying to do our best and to
16:49
lean into each other more. I think that that would be really
16:53
helpful, you know, give each other pats in the back. So
16:56
that's one thing that I would like to start seeing a little
16:58
bit more. I have been seeing it more, but this type of legal
17:02
recruiting, especially is getting extremely saturated. So
17:06
I think that if you know if you're working with if I work
17:10
with a candidate, and they say that they're working with
17:12
another recruiter, I always say to them, you know, I would
17:15
really appreciate if you let them know that you are going to
17:17
pivot. Don't just go blank on because we don't get paid until
17:22
we place somebody. So I think that that's kind of one of the
17:26
things that you know, what goes around, comes around, is
17:28
something that I try to really think about. And I think that
17:30
if, if you are thinking about getting into this, or if you
17:33
already are a recruiter and you're successful, or if you're
17:36
having a hard time, definitely reach out to me. I would love to
17:40
network. I would love to chat. I'm always here to kind of help
17:43
out my fellow recruiter.
17:46
Stephanie Maas: That's awesome. Man, thank you so much for
17:49
joining us sharing some of your wisdom. Really appreciate your
17:53
time and energy here.
17:54
Jennifer White: Thank you so much. Steph, it's always so
17:56
great to chat with you.