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What If Your Darkest Thoughts Aren't Even You? The Answer Is DISTURBING · Man in America Podcast

• 0:14
  Speaker 1: What if some of the darkest thoughts that enter your mind aren't actually coming from you? For seven years, my guest today worked inside a massive state psychiatric hospital in Georgia and he kept seeing the exact same thing. Patients with schizophrenia would make real progress getting right to the edge of graduating from a job training program and then they stopped taking their meds. They'd go psychotic in the middle class and lose everything. But when he pressed them on why they kept doing this, the answer was always the same.
• 0:46
  I don't know. Then one young woman finally told him the voices had convinced her that the psychiatrist was actually poisoning her. And so that one answer sent him on a decades long investigation through psych wards and the Arizona prison system. He talked with hundreds and hundreds of patients who had never met each other before, and he began noticing something remarkable, that these voices seem to follow the exact same playbook. They attacked the self worth.
• 1:17
  They cut people off from their families. They pushed them towards self destruction, and they warned them not to tell anyone. Then there's what happened when patients turned to scripture. So one man started reciting twenty third Psalm, and he said that the voices reacted like worms thrown on a hot frying pan. So the guest today started giving other patients the same psalm verse to recite.
• 1:43
  And according to him, the reactions were remarkably consistent. So psychiatry calls these things auditory hallucinations, but my guest believes there's something much darker and his conclusions are well outside the mainstream narrative. But because he spent his career sitting across the table from these patients, his stories are hard to dismiss. Welcome to Man in America. I'm your host, Seth Holehouse.
• 2:08
  And my guest today is Jerry Marzinski. He's a retired psychotherapist with over thirty five years of experience working in psych wards, hospitals, and prisons. And honestly, this was one of the most mind bending conversations I've probably ever had, and I think you're gonna feel the same after listening to it. Now before we start, please make sure you like the show, share it, subscribe to the channel. It just helps me keep this independent and outside my paywall.
• 2:34
  Alright. Let's go and dive into my conversation with Jerry Marzynski. Mister Jerry Marzynski, it is such an honor to finally interview. I've been following your work for some time, and I have to say I'm really, really excited for this discussion. So thanks for giving us your time today.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Oh, you're more than welcome.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: So I guess it'd be appropriate to start with your backstory, because it's pretty extensive, it really feeds into a lot of our discussion. And so, you were a psychotherapist, right? Was that your technical, you used to... You know, thirty five years in psychotherapy, and working in some of the worst environments in terms of the people that go the most insane or schizophrenics. And that really, that journey and you seeing the treatments and the analysis and then questioning those things, I think led you to come to a lot of the conclusions that you've come to now.
• 3:26
  But why don't you just walk us through that process? Because I I wanna hear more about about your backstory.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: So, you know, starting off, I think the the two things that that drove me to explore when when I was able to, what these voices were that the kids was hearing. For number one, I was a... What do you call it? Adrenaline junky. You know?
• 4:00
  So poking around in the heads of psychotics was interesting and challenging. You know? It wasn't your everyday thing to do.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: And I was well prepared for it. Matter of fact, you know, my dad who was a rageaholic, very temper hair trigger, physically and emotionally abusive, prepared me for this better than any graduate school, you know, better than anything all the way from the undergraduate to graduate to the PhD program. He prepared me best as much as I hated him at the time. On top of being a rageaholic, he was also diabetic. So he went to the doctor and and they asked the doctor.
• 4:54
  He said, hey. I don't have any energy. What do you got? And he gave him amphetamines. K?
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: And so what... Wait. What year was this?
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, this was probably back in the sixties, I would think.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: So they they gave him amphetamines because he felt like he was low energy.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: The doctor I I remember the doctor's name. He's probably no longer around. So on top of being a rageaholic, now he's getting paranoid because he's he's chock full of amphetamine. You know? So he started getting paranoid, you know, kinda kinda delusional.
• 5:41
  And it was like as... Even as a young kid, I couldn't fight back against him physically. So what I would do is just push him to the very edge of an explosion, and then I'd back away. You know? And if if I missed if I misdirected, if I if I went just an inch too far, a little bit too far, the consequences were brutal.
• 6:04
  So it was like this game of, it's almost like Russian roulette. You know? It's like, how far can I push this guy before he goes off? And I got pretty good at it. I mean, he's...
• 6:17
  The consequences for failing weren't good. So
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I guess that... What it what it look like if he went... Like, what it look like when your operation failed?
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, there would be physical or emotional abuse almost instantaneously. You know? I get get get a belt and whipped with the belt or... There were several times he punched me. There's one time he hit me in the face.
• 6:45
  I wasn't expecting it. He kinda sucker punched me. And I woke up on the kitchen floor, and he was on top of me trying to gouge my eyes out. So it was like, better fight back or he's gonna kill you. You know?
• 6:58
  And that stuck with me. It's like, you know, fight back against abuse. So ending up as a psychologist in the Arizona State prison system was not easy. And so that place was just abusive to the core. And so it's like the good lord said, no.
• 7:19
  You can't handle abuse. There. Take this.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Do you think that part of your your experience growing up with your father is what led you into the profession that you're in, trying to understand the mind of a of a psychotic person and trying to figure out to help fix those things?
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Well, it was more to fix my mind. You know, coming out of there, I was like, what is going on with me? And what... Who am I? What am I?
• 7:39
  And what did I just go through? And, you know, how do I fix myself? I knew something was off. And I I think most psychologists choose psychology for that reason, you know, Kinda trying to find a answer for themselves. You know?
• 7:53
  And so, yeah, I went through, the undergraduate that, graduated from Temple University in Pennsylvania with a BA in psychology, and I I didn't find any answers that I was looking for. The closest I came was experimental psychology. Alright? That had hardcore results. If you do this, this outcome will will happen.
• 8:19
  And you could go into the lab and you could see it. You know, you could run that schedule with rats and the rats would behave this way. Right? But everything else was just kinda murky. I remember once in an abnormal psychology class, which as soon as I hit that, I was just fascinated.
• 8:40
  You know? It's just... It just gripped me like nothing else in in college did.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: And what's abnormal psychology? Define that for us.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Well, it's the study of mental illnesses. Oh, I see. So what they've done with that is they've come up with something called the DSM, which is a directory of mental illnesses. You know? And they've treated it like the bible all all the way through, but it was completely made up.
• 9:13
  There's not one... Not even one objective test for any one of those almost through... What is it? It's two seventy eight or something now. It's psychological diagnosis.
• 9:28
  They're made up by a team of psychiatrists who are in league with big pharma.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: They made them... They they specifically made them up so they could bill for the treatment of these things. And what it what it appeared like to me is that they they made it specifically for that. So it's like, you know, schizophrenia three zero three point one zero or three o whatever it is. And then goes down and it tells all the major symptoms and then the sub symptoms and then the sub sub symptoms and, you know, and it looks like a real scientific document.
• 10:06
  I mean, it looks like it was put together by scientists the way it's ordered and and it's very impressive looking. It's it's groups of psychiatric or psychological symptoms that they group together and turned into an illness, and then they voted in and voted out.
• 10:25
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• 10:39
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• 11:15
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• 11:33
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• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Well, it was it was like a slow process. You know? And where it started was well before I was born. You know? It started with the, Carnegie Foundation in in 1910.
• 12:18
  The Rockefeller Group sponsored the Flexner Report, which they paid congress. You know, they they they paid for the report that says the only thing that really works in medicine are chemicals, drugs. You know? Anything that's taught other than drug is is illegal. K?
• 12:41
  So I got a little a little report here. It's like it says the Carnegie Foundation and the Rockefeller Group sponsored the infamous Flexner Report, which shut down any medical school teaching subjects outside of mainstream pharmacology. Alright? So what do you call it? The...
• 13:00
  With the needles, acupuncture, naturopathy, electrical, like the Tesla violet ray, any other kind of treatment for the human was outlawed by these scumbags back then. K? And the... That nothing outside of mainstream pharmacology could be taught. The edict was so powerful that only a few medical schools survived, such as John Hopkins and McGill and a handful of others connected with those groups.
• 13:30
  They were the only schools that could legally license doctors, you know. And any doctor caught doing anything else other than pharmacological medicine, their license was threatened. You know? So at that point, they just grabbed control of of the entire medical system, you know, made... Okay.
• 13:55
  And and set it up all around drugs, you know, and specifically psychiatry. So back in the early days, was a big battle between neurology and psychiatry. K? And psychiatry was losing badly. They didn't have anything that worked.
• 14:17
  You know, their their Freudian stuff, you know, took tons of time, was very expensive and didn't produce very good results. So the neurologists were pulling ahead. And in the... You know, back in the early... The eighteen hundreds, there was a dye lab in Germany that was dying clothes, and they found that one of these dyes would would gork out the people who were working in the factory at the time.
• 14:50
  They just get all looped out, and they're going, well, you know, they figured out it was it was coming from this... Whatever that dye was, the chemicals in that particular dye. So a group of French Frenchmen got together, like pharmacists from French Klein and Smith or somebody over there came and they they started examining this this dye, and they were able to extract from it phenothiazines. Okay? So this was the first psychiatric tranquilizer.
• 15:26
  This was the major thing. And they wanted to use it on psychiatric populations in Europe. But the Freudians said, no. No. No.
• 15:36
  No. No. What happened? None of that. No.
• 15:39
  So they stopped it. So they came over to The US and they got the people running a large insane asylum over here to allow them to administer these phenothiazines to the patient population. And it knocked them all out. I mean, they were just walking around the... Kinda in a daze.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: You know? It's kinda perfect for what lobotomy almost. Right?
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And that this was great for them. You know? Because before that, they had the...
• 16:10
  The attendance staff had to actually wrestle these guys into straight jackets. And patients got hurt, staff got hurt. They had to wrestle them in these straight jackets and then tie them up until they just exhausted themselves. You know? So when they they came across the drug that would just sedate the entire population, That was like a miracle to them.
• 16:34
  It's like, oh, yeah. Give us as much of it as you got. You know? And the psychiatrist immediately losing the battle to neurology took over those drugs. Right?
• 16:45
  And they still own them today. They don't like general practitioners giving out these psychiatric drugs. You know? And general practitioners are led to believe that these doctors are specialists in the use of these drugs and only they know how to use them correctly. I mean, now when you get to the front lines and you see how they're actually using them, it's like there are a number of times where, you know, I'd be in the psychiatrist's office with a psychiatric patient and watched how they diagnose them.
• 17:17
  You know, they'd ask them questions for about ten, fifteen minutes. You know, you're hearing voices. They're hearing voices automatically. They're schizophrenic, and they just pick out one of the antipsychotic drugs that they think would work for them. And they would just guess at the dose.
• 17:32
  You know? Well, the standard dose is this, so we'll start there. And then they'd bring them back in a month or so and, like, how are you doing with your meds? So it wasn't any talk to them personally about what are you hearing, how are you doing, how are you feeling, and nothing like that. They were just a subject that were taking the drugs.
• 17:50
  And if they reported the drugs weren't working, they would increase them or they'd add more. You know? Or they'd change them completely, but it was always trying to balance out this this cabinet of psychiatric drugs that they had that they could use. And I've I've seen them drug these people to the point where they're just drooling. You know, they couldn't, they couldn't even walk straight in some cases.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: And so, I mean, especially looking... And we'll we'll kinda get to the point of looking at our current society and all the SSRIs and everything. But I know that one of the big things is that they'll tell people, oh, you have a chemical imbalance in your brain. Like, it sounds like that they're coming from a very scientific place, as if they could maybe, you know, take a sample of your, you know, some sort of fluid and analyze it and say, oh, okay. It's like when you're mixing paint at Home Depot and you give them your paint swatch and they had the perfect combination of the different, you know, colors.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's what it
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: sounds It sounds like it's that simple. Like, oh, your chemical imbalance is off, and so here is a pharmaceutical. Here's a chemical to then take your chemicals and make them right again. Seems really simple.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: What a crock of crap that is. So it It's one of the biggest lies that they've perpetuated on the world population.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: You know? And it's and it's backed by, big pharma. So they got lots of money. Keep in mind that they're making, like $13,400,000,000 a year, not million, billion dollars a year selling these antipsychotic drugs. And they're making like 15,000,000,000 a year selling these antidepressant drugs.
• 19:38
  And they don't do anything except tamp down the symptoms. They don't get to the cure of of anything.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: So you say that for all of the information that we've heard about chemical imbalances, that that if you if you went in there and looked and you said, okay. Give me your research. Give me your documents that show the precise imbalances that you're diagnosing based upon. It's is made up? Doesn't exist?
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: It's made up. It doesn't exist. They wouldn't be able to show you jack squat. They don't know what the chemical balance of the brain should be. You know, there's, like, what, 23 different neurotransmitters in the brain.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Dopamine and serotonin. Right? And
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: and... Yeah. And that... That's one of the one of the things I first saw. I'd take my patient into the doctor.
• 20:26
  He'd like, oh, well, you know, and and prescribe some drug. You know? And I'm like, after after a few times of that, there wasn't any measurement for any kind of chemical imbalance. You'd think if they were treating a chemical imbalance, there'd be some kind of lab test or blood test or some kind of objective test where, you know, they would do something to measure, you know, what... How how much that chemical imbalance was and what was out of balance.
• 20:54
  No. It didn't exist. I never saw it. I started questioning them about it. And the answer I got was, oh, we don't mess with that.
• 21:03
  The, the drug companies have all figured all that out. We just hand out the drugs that they recommend. You know? So here's the entire psychiatric system basically being fueled by big pharma. K?
• 21:19
  So this this chemical imbalance crap started in the in the nineteen eighties after they came out with the antidepressant Prozac. K? The idea of a chemical imbalance hit because Eli Lilly who came out with Prozac was looking for some kind of explanation as to why that drug worked. You know? And it it basically...
• 21:45
  They were saying, well, it's a serotonin uptake... Reuptake inhibitor. So what they what they saw was that once the neuron... The neurons are chemical electrical. So there's a a chemical synapse where the the electrical connection goes into a synapse where it turns chemical, and then it...
• 22:08
  From the chemical, it goes electrical again, and then chemical electrical. So what they found was that once the nerves discharges, there's a reuptake that that comes and cleans up the mess. So the extra serotonin from from that firing, it it... So it doesn't mess up the synapse. The body automatically sends in the clean cleaning crew to cleans up the serotonin that caused that firing to the other nerve.
• 22:48
  Right? So what they figured so well, if we could figure out a way to inhibit that cleaning mechanism where the nerve would fire more often, you know, maybe that would help. So they call it as SSRI, a serotonin reuptake inhibitor. So it stops the cleaning crew from cleaning up the discharge of chemicals after the firing of the nerve. Right?
• 23:15
  You know? So they they went, okay. So it it it seems to be working to some degree. And that's where they came up with the, landmark antidepressant Prozac. Mhmm.
• 23:31
  And and the idea of this being a chemical imbalance. You know? Peter Brighan, a psychiatrist back in 1991 pointed out in his book, toxic psychiatry, that the drug company Eli Lilly advanced the chemical imbalance there is a marketing scheme to sell their new drug Prozac. They knew there wasn't nothing to it at the time. They had no proof of it.
• 23:53
  They ran with it anyway. And big pharma paid for it. Then they paid off the universities for any kind of research that would lend credence to what what they were proposing. K? There was no demonstratable evidence showing that depressed patients had any chemical imbalance of...
• 24:14
  In the brain, but Eli Lilly ran with it. Before long, psychiatrists and psychiatric patients alike came to identify with the idea that mental disorders are caused by a chemical imbalance of the brain. So you ask them, what should the chemical balance of the brain be? And they have not the foggiest idea. They don't know.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: So they just
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: It's a lie. It's a it's a big freaking lie to to feed, you know, to feed their breed.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: So it's not that... It's obviously... It's not that there's not people that have chronic depression or they're hearing voices. It's not that. It's just that what they've done is they have created...
• 24:59
  They've kind of... They've they've they've put the problem into a bucket that they can then solve through their chemical solution, and therefore creating a, you know, probably probably by now a multitrillion dollar industry over the years of what they've actually Yeah. They've created out of thin air.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Yes. They did. It's a it's a sales job. So what they've done is they've snowballed the entire world population into believing that these drugs actually cure something. They don't cure anything.
• 25:32
  All they do is they tamp down the symptoms. So with with psychotic patients, usually, the voices don't disappear. They do sometimes, but that's rare. K? They're still there.
• 25:45
  They're not as strong. You know? So it it quiets them down some. And, you know, those voices are the the biggest symptom, the single biggest symptom of paranoid schizophrenia, which is the largest category of schizophrenia. So...
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: And so if these drugs do obviously have a chemical effect in in the tamping down mechanism you described, but through prolonged use of these drugs... What happens? Like, what does that do to someone that's been on Prozac for twenty years or that's been on, you know, lithium or any any of the other heavy psych drugs? What what does it end up doing to that person's brain?
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Well, in the case of antipsychotics, it rots the brain out. It slowly rots the brain out and the peripheral nervous system. So in the state hospital where I worked at large, when I got to that state hospital, they had had about 10,000 patients there. And this is the one that
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: we pulled up. Right? This one Right. Right here.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: That's it. Now what that is in front of you there, that's the Powell Building. That building was there when general Sherman's troops came came through, and he camped his troops on the on the grounds of of this. This used to be the hospital, you know, until it grew. By the time I got there, it sprawled over, like, 2,000 acres, and it had over 200 buildings.
• 27:23
  This is what one of the psych wards would typically look like when it was running. K? They've they've long since closed it down. That was one of the psychiatric units. That was one of the hardcore psychiatric units.
• 27:39
  So each one of those floors was filled with psychiatric patients. So there's three floors, chalk full of them. And,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: you know
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: And you could see the the grating, the steel grating in front of the windows. So they couldn't yeah. Look at it. You could see it. So they they couldn't escape.
• 27:57
  These buildings are now some of the most haunted buildings in Georgia.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: And so taking all of these patients and locking them in a building like this... I've seen, you know, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest in some of these movies like this, but what were conditions That
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: was mild.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: What were conditions like inside of here? What are some of the things that you saw working inside of one of these? Thinking, look, this is what, twenty five, thirty years ago? It's not like we're talking about the 1950s.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Like, this is relatively recent. Like, the 1970s. Okay. This whole hospital is now closed down.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: But you still... You worked in it while it was still open.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: I did for seven years.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: And what was that like? What are some of things you saw inside of there?
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's just... You know, well, I was working for a psychiatric rehabilitation center. K? So our job was to go out into these psych units and find the highest functioning of the patients we could find and then send them to this vocational rehab psychiatric program where we would then train them for, like, cosmetology or, you know, janitorial service or nurses aid or, you know, some low level thing where they could at least earn a living.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Kinda like a halfway house type thing.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it was actually a vocational school. Okay. Okay. So we'd train and send them there, and then they they would go through training there.
• 29:31
  And then if... They they would release them. But the the problem I saw was that the the highest functioning were usually schizophrenics. You know? So they were the ones that I'd end up sending over there.
• 29:48
  You know? And what they kept doing was either going off their meds or sabotaging themselves, you know, doing something that would get them kicked out of class. And back in the seventies, the only thing we had that had any kind of effect on these guys to the good were those drugs, were those antipsychotic drugs. They were basically major tranquilizers. So they just, you know, bubbled them down.
• 30:17
  Right? And the effect on the voices were that they usually didn't get rid of them. It made them weaker. They were still there. They weren't as strong.
• 30:28
  They didn't have as much influence. And the patients weren't as violent. They were more sedated. For the rehab center, the doctor would kind of try to balance the psych meds so they could still function in vocational classes. But one thing, couple of things I start...
• 30:48
  I saw that looked odd was as they started approaching graduation, they started doing stuff that would get them in trouble and kicked out of classes. And I was like, you know, what's going on there? Why why when they're so close to graduation are they sabotaging themselves? But it was like a pattern. You know?
• 31:09
  It's like... And I couldn't figure it out. I had no idea what it was. The other thing that I saw was that they would go off their medications. Now if this...
• 31:24
  If they were involved in vocational training, there was like an unwritten rule that if they went off their meds three times, that we'd have to discharge them. Because if if they won't take those meds, which is the only thing we had back then, if if they won't take the meds, then they're gonna go crazy again. Yeah. And they won't be able to hold a job. So if they won't take the meds while they're being handed to them by the nurse, they don't have to go anywhere.
• 31:54
  They don't have to do anything. They're right there. You know, if they go off them then, when they're released, where they have to go to a mental health center or go through a lot of trouble or get a car or transportation or something to get to a mental health center to get those meds, which might not be anywhere near them, you know, they're they're not gonna do it. You know? And they just kept stopping their meds.
• 32:20
  So this was his seventh year at the hospital. And I'm I'm I'm wondering why are they doing this? You know? Do they wanna go crazy? Because that's what it looked like.
• 32:30
  They they wanted to go crazy. They knew what would happen. I mean, hundreds of times before, most of them stopped their meds and they they went nuts. You know? So it's like they knew what would happen, and yet they did it anyway.
• 32:47
  So I'm like, what is going on with that? You know, there's nothing in books written about that kind of stuff. You know? And in the whole... My whole career working on the front lines of mental health, I have never ever even once seen a researcher from any of the universities or anywhere else on the front lines studying these people and talking to them.
• 33:13
  It all comes through the universities that big pharma has control over. And they print these papers to back their sale of drugs. You know? If if somebody prints something that they don't like, they don't fund that article, and they don't fund that journal. You know?
• 33:31
  So it's kinda all run by big pharma, you know, even down to the universities now. So they were even teaching this biochemical imbalance crap, and they still are even though it's been debunked long ago. Now they're not saying, oh, it is caused. They go, well, it is believed that it's caused. You know, I looked up one of their advertisements a few months ago.
• 33:56
  Oh, it's it's believed that these disorders are caused by a chemical imbalance of the brain. So it's all a big sham to make money for the big pharma. Here they were, you know, going off their meds, getting in trouble, and some of them being thrown out of the program for not taking meds that they knew what would happen to them if they didn't take them. You know, they'd gone nuts several times before. Maybe some of them hundreds of times before.
• 34:38
  So the question was, why in the devil are they doing that? And so I'd start pulling them in after... When when they went off their meds, after the doctor got them back on those meds again and they were considered relatively sane, I'd pull them in my office. I go, what'd you do that for? Do you wanna go insane?
• 34:57
  You know, oh, no. No. I don't wanna go insane. Well, you knew what would happen if you went off those meds, didn't you? Well, I I think so.
• 35:05
  You know? And said, well, and why'd you go... Why'd you stop taking your meds? Right away, they went to the side effects. You know?
• 35:15
  The side effects are awful. I mean, they're... You know? At at the time I was there, they were using Thorazine, which is a very rough version of what they have today. You know, the...
• 35:27
  These new drugs that they use today, they have less side effects, but they still have... They still cause the same damage to the neurological system. Right? And what I saw at the time I was there was something called the Thorazine shuffle, where these people could no longer walk with a normal gait. They had to shuffle along the ground.
• 35:49
  They couldn't pick their legs up and walk like normal human beings any... Anywhere. They'd been on Thorazine or some antipsychotic drug for years. And Thorazine and Stelazine were were the two big ones that they were giving out in the seventies. So the side effects of those were were dizziness, drowsiness, anxiety, problems sleeping.
• 36:13
  It's like this agitated weariness. You know, you're tired, but you're agitated. It's it's like a hellish state, Breast swelling or discharge, changes of menstrual periods, weight gain, swelling of the hands or feet, dry mouth, stuffy nose, blurred vision, constipation. And and that's just the tip of the iceberg, those uncontrolled movements of the face, the lip lip smacking. So they they they would...
• 36:45
  With long term use, there would be tongue darting where they go. They had no control over their tongue. Right? Uncontrolled frowning, uncontrolled eye blinking, stiffness of the neck, tightness of the throat, trouble breathing or swallowing, lightheaded feeling like you might pass out, confusion, agitation, feeling jittery, trouble sleeping, weakness, breast swelling or discharge, seizures, jaundice, low white blood cell count, dry mouth, blurred vision, constipation, impotence. It just goes on and on.
• 37:25
  Okay? So these are these are with the major drugs that they were using at that time.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: So you sat down and talked to them and you asked them, why'd you go off? That was the typical answer? Like, they they just said all the side effects are too bad? That was typical answer. That doesn't explain the timing, though, of why they would stay on them up until close to their...
• 37:47
  Them graduating or entering into the next step of life. You know, why why then?
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Well, I was curious about that also. And also, like, as bad as these drugs were, the psychotic state that a lot of these guys would lapse into was like hell on earth. They would see monsters trying to kill them. They would see shadows in the dark stalking them. They would they would hear conversations, and they would interpret them as people plotting to kill them.
• 38:24
  You know? People would laugh, and they'd say, oh, they're laughing at me. You know? The ideas of reference were were warped ideation of what was going on around them was warped to the worst possible interpretation. So I went to the DSM and I got a list of all these psychiatric symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia.
• 38:52
  Monsters, voices in their heads screaming at them, telling them they're gonna murder them, that kind of stuff. And I got the whole list there and turned it into a check sheet. So when one of these patients went off at their meds, I bring them in the office and said, why'd you do... Why'd you go off your meds? They'd say, well, the side effects were awful.
• 39:14
  That's expected. The side effects are toxic. You know? So they'd go right to that. And then I'd ask them, I said, okay, how many side effects did you have?
• 39:24
  And they'd write down on a sheet of paper, four or five, because they didn't all have the same side effects. You know, they had different ones. And then I give them the sheet of all these symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia. And it was a check sheet. And I said, here, check each one of these symptoms that you experienced when you were in a psychotic state off your meds.
• 39:49
  And they would check a bunch of them. And then I'd take them both and I'd hand them back to them and I'd go, okay. Which one's worse? Every single one of them said being psychotic was worse than the side effects of the medications. Every one.
• 40:07
  And then I'd ask them then, why did you go off your meds? And the answer I got was, I don't know. That went on for years. I kept asking the same question over and over again. I got the same answer.
• 40:21
  I don't know. And then you go, well, if you don't know, who does? I don't know. You know, that's that's what it was. So in the the seventh year, we had one girl that was doing real good in the cosmetology class.
• 40:35
  She was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. She was taking her meds. She was making good grades. She was a a good student. And as she was about to graduate, she went off her meds and went psychotic in the cosmetology class.
• 40:50
  And the instructor calls me up and says, you need to come come down, get her out of here. She's disturbing the whole class. I went and got her and she's screaming and hollering and and shouting at the voices and just making a, you know... Everybody was afraid to get near her. So I took her out, brought her to the ward, and once we calmed her down, that was like the third time she went off her meds.
• 41:17
  So I told her, I said, this was strike three. You know? Strike three, you're out. We're gonna have to discharge you Because we figure after three tries, if they're not staying on their meds while they're being handed to them, they're not gonna stay on them when they get out. Yeah.
• 41:32
  So what we do is just charge those guys and then try to get somebody else in who would stay on those meds. You know? And so I told her that we were planning to discharge her and she called her mom and said, listen, they're they're kicking me out because I went off my meds again. And the mom called me and and was begging, virtually begging me not to send her home because she said, I can't do anything with her. When she gets in those states, I have no control.
• 42:00
  I've been dealing with this for decades. You know, please, I'll I'll drive up there and we'll figure out why she went off her meds. And I'm thinking, wow. To have a mother on my side, I'll take it. So I said, okay.
• 42:14
  I'll meet you up here next Friday, and we'll talk to her. We'll see if we can't find out. You gotta help me find out why she'd get one off her meds. Alright. So the mother was there, in my office.
• 42:26
  I was talking to her, having some small talk and some background of what she faced and brought the patient in. And, both of us are going after she sat down, why did you go off your meds? You know? And, she said, well, you won't believe me. You know?
• 42:46
  I could tell you, but you won't believe me. I said, well, try me. I've I've heard crazy stuff since I've been here. You're you're not gonna do anything that throws me out of kilter. She goes, okay.
• 42:58
  She said, the voices told me that the psychiatrist was poisoning me and pointed to the side effects of the antipsychotic drugs as proof that she was being poisoned. In truth, that's true. These drugs are toxic. Those side effects are poisonous. And the voices were using it to get them to stop taking the meds where they could take full control.
• 43:28
  Now what I just told you, I didn't know at the time, you know, when when I was... When she was there.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Now once you got that piece of information... Because you've established that there is this consistent pattern of these individuals going off their meds, initially them saying, it's poisonous, but you drill down in, and they say, I actually don't know why. Right? Now she then reveals to you the voices are telling her that those meds are the ones that are poisoning her, and that was her reason. Did you then start asking any other people that went off their meds?
• 44:03
  Did you ask them, hey. Did the voices tell you that they're poisonous? Is that why?
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: No. But what happened is something clicked into place that I'd been wondering about for a long time prior to that over the seven years. Psychiatrists were getting assaulted by paranoid schizophrenic patients at a rate that was horrendous. They were being assaulted at a rate higher than psych nurses, than regular nurses, than regular doctors. Then assault rate on psychiatrists was equivalent to the assault rate on, what do you call them, staff, attendance staff.
• 44:44
  They're with with these people twenty four hours a day, and they're only spending fifteen to twenty minutes a month with them. So what perplexed me was what are they saying to these people in fifteen or twenty minutes that's setting them off bad enough to warrant an assault? That was on my mind for seven years. I had no no idea. You know?
• 45:09
  And you couldn't go up to a psychiatrist and go, well, what'd you do? What'd you do? You know, get out of my face, buddy. You know? It's like...
• 45:17
  But I'd heard it a number of times before. And I went, oh, so that's where those assaults are coming from. You know? That clicked into place, and now it was clear. So a piece of the puzzle I was looking for for seven years had clicked in at the last minute, you know, right before I was about to leave that hospital.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: And so what what clicked for you? What what was what was your understanding of that?
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: Well, that the voices were telling these patients to attack the psychiatrist because the psychiatrist was poisoning them. I've heard that a number of times from the patients themselves that the voices were telling them that the psychiatrist was poisoning them.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Interesting. And so the the doctors, the other staff, they're around them, but but they're not to...
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: They're not the ones dishing out the medications. So they weren't being attacked.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: It's because the the psychiatrist was threatening the voices. Yes. In essence.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: The the voices, they survive off of... They're very low frequency entities. They survive off of negative emotional, the generation of negative emotions. And now this took a long time to figure out too. So that's their food.
• 46:37
  They feed off of the negative emotions that these guys generate.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: Okay. So you were... Okay. So I I definitely wanna dig into that, but you referred to the voices as entities. Right?
• 46:48
  Which are... That right... Already there is a huge departure from the mainstream, perspective of this, is that they're... You're now identifying them as some sort of entity that is existing outside of the person's own soul and psyche. And so how did you come to that conclusion?
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: I didn't... I resisted that for probably another twenty five years.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: So what I first saw when I got to the... This giant hospital that you just showed is here's thousands of staff, and not any of them were interested in what these voices were telling these schizophrenic patients. So it was very clear that the patients who were listening to those voices the most were the ones that were getting in the most trouble. K? There was a one to one correlation between that.
• 47:40
  So I saw that, and I'm like, well, you know, what are these things? And I would... I asked psychiatrists. I'd ask, like, nervous nurses. I'd ask regular nurses.
• 47:50
  I'd I'd say... Ask the, you know, the porters and stuff like, you know, what what are these voices? And all of them are, oh, they're just auditory hallucinations. You know, basically, like a word salad. Don't don't pay any attention to them.
• 48:04
  They're just hallucinations. They're crazy hallucinations. And, know, and I went, well, wait a second. That's not what it was looking like to me. And, you know, I I was watching these patients, and they were carrying on coherent conversations with these voices.
• 48:24
  Now I couldn't hear what the voices were telling them, but it was like listening to one side of a telephone conversation where you could hear what the person holding the phone was saying, but you couldn't hear what was coming over the phone. So they would argue with the voices. They would reason with the voices. They would curse at the voices. They were...
• 48:44
  But but the conversations were coherent.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: So you might hear someone sitting in a room talking and saying, no. I'm not gonna do that. That's not a good idea. No. I I did it last time, and it didn't work.
• 48:55
  So why do it again? Like, you're hearing
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: this Yep.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: As if they're on they're on, like, a headset talking to somebody.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: You got it. I I... Was one lady who was arguing against the voices that she didn't wanna leave the hospital grounds as she was leaving the hospital grounds. You know? So the more of that I saw, the more I went, well, wait a second.
• 49:17
  This isn't hallucination. This isn't word salad, but what is it? You know? I I didn't know what it was. And they certainly weren't talking to me because our job really was if we saw a schizophrenic patient or any patient getting out of control is one of our jobs was to turn them immediately into psychiatry so they could drug them more.
• 49:40
  So they didn't trust psych people. You know? They didn't trust cancer people. So it took a while to to overcome that, you know, because there is no benefit to these schizophrenic patients talking about their voices. You know?
• 50:00
  They tell their friends that, hey, I'm hearing these awful voices that are telling me to do these awful things. And their friends go, well, you're possessed. I'm... You know, get away from me. You know?
• 50:10
  They lose all their friends. You know? So they... Then they tell their parents or their wife or their husband or whatever, hey. I'm hearing voices, and they're they're telling me these awful things.
• 50:19
  And they go, well, we're gonna take you to the psychiatrist then. And that's what the voices were telling them in the first place. If you tell anybody about us, they're gonna take you to the psychiatrist, and they're gonna drug you silly. And they're gonna send you to an insane asylum. Right?
• 50:35
  So the voices are telling them this at the same time. I didn't know that until much later either. Yeah. So there is no benefit to schizophrenics telling people about their voices. You know?
• 50:48
  They either they get locked up, they get drugged up, they get shunned. So a lot of them just keep them to themselves. You know? They know that other people don't hear them, and they just struggle with it themselves. But they have a hard time with talking to other people because they're hearing two streams of voices coming in.
• 51:08
  You know, one from the person who's talking and the other from the voices who are talking at the same time. So they have a hard time figuring out who said what.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: It's kinda like Gollum, Lord of the Rings. Right? Is that is that like a similar... Like a good example of he's talking and he has the other voice that's saying the negative thing and he's kinda arguing Yeah. That's it.
• 51:29
  And so if if those voices... If p... If these patients are, you know, kinda trained or or kinda forced into obedience of not revealing those voices, how did you start getting access to those voices?
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Well, what I started with was asking the patients on my... See, at the at the state hospital, there was an unwritten rule that you don't do anything to upset a schizophrenic that you don't have to. Anything that upsets them, that isn't unnecessary, that you had to do was outlawed, you know, because there was no security staffs there. You know? They didn't have guards around.
• 52:16
  They didn't have police around. They they had attendant staff, but they were overwhelmed most all the time. You know? And so if if one of these guys went off, they could do a fair amount of damage before enough people would show up to do something to them, you know, to to try to stop them. So that was an unwritten rule.
• 52:38
  You don't do anything to irritate these guys. So this is where the skill of pushing my dad to the absolute limit
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: Came came into play. You know? It's like, if you fail, the consequences were pretty bad. So I was able to kinda talk to these guys and push them as far as I felt they could go. And I was starting to get information back from them, you know, about their voices.
• 53:08
  And that information started turning into patterns. You know? So after talking to hundreds and hundreds of them, these patterns became more and more clear. You know? And one of the first patterns were they were...
• 53:26
  The voices were consistently negative. They did... Never said anything positive. It was like, they they were insulting. They were derogatory.
• 53:37
  They were abusive. They were destructive. They'd say stuff. You're no good. You're rotten.
• 53:41
  You're stupid. Nobody likes you. You're worthless. Every rotten thing that you could think to say to a person, these things would say, k, to to these people. And it was...
• 53:56
  If it was anything positive, it was used as a hook for them to gain more control later. So what they would start off often is is when they first showed up, they're like, oh, we're a spiritual friend. We can help you out. We know stuff that you you don't know. You know?
• 54:12
  And later on, working with prisoners, sure enough, they did. You know, the voices would tell them which houses to rob, when to get in, when the people were up, when to get out, where to run to. You know? Yeah. Really?
• 54:24
  When they got to prison, oh, yeah. They knew stuff that the the patient himself did not know.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Just a a side question is with this is that did you find any pattern or you start to... Did you start to try to understand when the voices started appearing and what caused that for people?
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Well, what I saw that was pretty clear was that the schizophrenia... The schizophrenics usually had terrible physical, emotional, or sexual abuse in their background.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: So it's tied to maybe a dissociative nature.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: Well, to the trauma trauma nature. You know? And it's... And the the voices... And a lot of this I'm talking now, I didn't know till years later.
• 55:20
  But the voices... Well, what what is... Let me go back to where... Before I skip years ahead because I'm I'm I'm joining information that I didn't have at the time here. So back into state hospital again.
• 55:35
  Here I am asking them, what are these voices like? What what do they say? What do they do? Patterns started emerging after a while. They were consistently negative.
• 55:45
  They were antireligious. They didn't... They hated the person going to church. They didn't like him reading the bible. They they hated the twenty third psalm.
• 55:56
  I remember one one patient came to my office one day, and he said, I was fighting with the voices all last night, and I started repeating the twenty third Psalm. And he said, the voices reacted like worms thrown on a hot frying pan. And I went, well, that's interesting. So I said, well, let me check that out. And I I started handing out the twenty third psalm to my other patients and said, you know, come back in a week.
• 56:24
  I'd call them back in a week. I said, well, how do... How'd your voices react to the twenty third psalm? And it was consistent. The voices got very upset.
• 56:34
  They didn't like it. They tried to stop it. They they they would howl and scream and and gnash gnash of teeth and stuff. So I started wondering, like, what happens when they went to church? So that was like a a common question I would ask, you know, new new patients when they came in.
• 56:53
  You know, you hear voices? Yeah. What what what happened when they went to church? If the voices were weak, the voices would shut up in church. If they were medium strength, they would get louder.
• 57:05
  They would start, you know, mocking the preacher, saying stuff like... And one common one was Jesus couldn't even help himself. Himself. What makes you think he's gonna save you? That was a common one.
• 57:19
  It's almost like they were all working out of, you know, some demonic technical manual. Yeah. Because they were all running the same patterns. So here's hundreds of patients with these patterns being the same in all of them. You know?
• 57:37
  So it's like they're like this big giant cookie cutter up in the in the universe somewhere that's cooking... You know, stamping out the same cookies, you know, the same play... Playbook. You know? So, yeah, they hated religion.
• 57:56
  They hated God. They hated Jesus. They didn't like anybody talking about him or praying or doing anything like like that. And I'd hand out the twenty third Psalm, bring it back. Well, how'd that work?
• 58:07
  Well, I lost it. Or it it... They didn't like it. It was it was consistent. You know, they didn't like religious stuff.
• 58:20
  And where the... One of the places that first showed up is that the chaplain for the psychiatric rehab center would have these ice cream socials. And all the patients would go down there and they'd dance and listen to music. The schizophrenics just stayed on the wards. They're staring at the ceiling.
• 58:42
  So they're they're watching murder mysteries on TV or they're they're reading, you know, horror stories and and and these books they had on their bedside. And I noticed that the schizophrenics had particularly negative books on their bedside. This is what they were reading. It was all negative nasty stuff, you know, murder mysteries, war stories. It's all negative stuff.
• 59:09
  And that's where I started wondering. You know, that's the first thing I saw is, well, why aren't you going down there? So I started asking them after the third time I saw that, why aren't you down with the others? Well, you know, I I prayed to God and he never helped me. I don't think there is a God.
• 59:26
  And if if there is one, well, damn him anyway because he's never helped me kinda thing. You know? So they've... They were all antireligious. They didn't want anything to do with the preacher or ice cream social or so you couldn't even prompt them to go down there for ice cream and cake, which is hard to find in the psychiatric hospital.
• 59:47
  You know? So there was that pattern. And then I also noticed that... And then this was this was later became really clear is that I would ask these guys... I I noticed that after the voices hit them, they didn't have any energy.
• 1:00:08
  They were, like, drained. You know? And that came that came about more... It became more clear in the prison. So what happened here was while I was asking these patients in the state hospital about their voices, one guy I asked, his voices got pissed off, and he...
• 1:00:31
  They they had him go complain to the psychiatrist that I was asking him questions that he didn't like to answer, that I was upsetting him by asking him these questions, which flew in the face of that silent law, do nothing to upset clients in in the state hospital. So the next morning, I got called up before this psychiatrist on the red carpet. And here he is telling me, this guy is telling me, you're asking him questions about his voices. You know? The voices are hallucinations.
• 1:01:04
  That's all there is. They're they're hallucinations. You know? And by asking them questions about their voices, you're upsetting them, and you're reinforcing the reality of those voices. Right?
• 1:01:17
  And he threatened me. He said, you keep doing this, you're gonna face disciplinary action because you're upsetting these people. Yeah. And, you know, you can't talk back to these guys. They're so arrogant.
• 1:01:27
  It's incredible. And, you know, I just went... You know, I knew I'd... It it... I knew it was bullshit, you know, for...
• 1:01:35
  As soon as it came out of his mouth because I've been studying these things for a while. They weren't auditory hallucinations. They weren't, you know, mixed up salad. I mean, they they they were make... They were perfectly coherent conversations.
• 1:01:53
  You know? They were arguing with these people with whatever they were dealing with. They they were carrying on arguments, conversations, constantly talking to them. So there was one incident I remember where... This is this is before I even came up with these these patterns, which was a little later.
• 1:02:17
  This was earlier where I was trying to sneak up behind a patient who was carrying on a pretty lively conversation with his voices to try to hear what was going on. And I got pretty close and then he turns around, he he caught me. You know? So I said, hi. I'm Jerry.
• 1:02:36
  I'm the psych on this unit. I haven't seen you before. You knew? He said, yay. I got here a week or two ago.
• 1:02:45
  And I said, well, what's your name? And he says, well, before I even get that that far, back as an undergraduate in in psychology clinical and abnormal psychology, we were assigned this research paper to read from a professor written by a clinical psychologist that said, if two patients, psychiatric patients met, and one of them thought they were, you know, Emmanuel Macron and the other one, Joe Biden, one of them... Or they both believed they were Joe Biden. One of them would have to change to something else. You know, they couldn't have the same delusion.
• 1:03:28
  And even as an undergraduate, I'm like, why would that need to be? They're both nuts. I mean, what, you know, why would they even care about something like that? You know? But here was...
• 1:03:38
  This was written by a clinical psychologist, published. Now years later, you know, I don't know how many years later, that took me what, fifteen, twenty years later, when I was in the PhD program, I saw what they were doing up there. It's publisher perish. They don't care what they published as long as it got published and made a name for the university. You know, we've got this many pub...
• 1:04:02
  The, you know, published documents. And I watched it. I watched it happen. They were just publishing junk just to get it published. Yeah.
• 1:04:11
  And later I found out that one of these research institutes did a study of the replicability of papers that were published by psychologists. 80% of the research they said they did was nonreplicable. They couldn't replicate it, which means that 80% of that stuff that they were publishing was trash. I didn't know that at the time either.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: And so so the guy you snuck up on in in your life?
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: I snuck up on. So so here was... Oh, that was the paper. Okay? So I I I tucked that idea in the back of my head.
• 1:04:55
  So, well, maybe one day I'll find an answer to that. And this is like years down the line. And I still have that question in the in the basket in the back of my mind somewhere. So this guy, I look him. He...
• 1:05:07
  I asked him, what's your name? And he goes, I'm Jesus Christ. And I went, no. No. You're not Jesus Christ because I am.
• 1:05:17
  You know? And I'm like, okay. What's he gonna do? You know? This is the the test, the acid test for this this paper from a clinical psychologist written years ago.
• 1:05:27
  You know? Like, what's he gonna do? And I was like, I'm pins and needles watching him. Like, okay. What's the verdict here?
• 1:05:33
  You know? And he's thinking and he cocks his eyes up. He's looking around, and he then he looks me back in the face and he goes, okay, we can both be Jesus Christ, and he strolls off. And I'm like, okay, what the freak else did they lie to me about? You know?
• 1:05:47
  And I already had this this big mass of distrust for authority anyway, you know, from my dad. And then the other stuff that happened to me from, you know, authority figures that one incident after another after another taught me you you just can't trust authority. That's all there is to it. You just can't do it. You know?
• 1:06:08
  So I already had that heavy distrust for authority to start with. And here was the first... See, they won't let you in undergraduate, even in graduate, they won't let you into a clinical population. You can't get in there. You couldn't get into a psychiatric hospital and tell them, hey.
• 1:06:27
  Listen. I'd like to do some research on the schizophrenics. You're not getting in. Oh, well, insurance regulations don't allow for that, or we can't afford the staff to watch out for you, or we don't know what you're doing, and you might hurt... Get hurt or, you know, whatever.
• 1:06:44
  You're not gonna get in. Same way with the prison. You know? They're not gonna let you in. So the whole time I was working on the front lines of, you know, psychology with with the mental illness population, I never ever saw a researcher on the front lines.
• 1:07:03
  I was it. Interesting. I was asking all these questions that nobody else would look at. You know? So...
• 1:07:14
  And and then, you know, I had to keep a low profile the whole time I was at the state hospital because they... That was the second time that something like that had happened where the psychiatrist warned me. You know? It wasn't as as dire as the first guy who threatened. You know?
• 1:07:31
  The other one was, you knock it off. You're upsetting these people kinda thing. It wasn't so bad. But there was no looking into it. They would not allow you to look into it.
• 1:07:44
  You know? Psychiatrists say, no. No. You stay out of there. Don't be looking that in that direction.
• 1:07:48
  If you look there, we're gonna we're gonna hurt you.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: Interesting. And so after those seven years, you then went to a prison. Is that correct?
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: And did you leave that because you could sense that your time was coming to an end and that you were...
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What they what they were doing is they they shut down the... They were shutting down that big hospital because of, proposition 13 in California. It was a tax rebellion where the the taxpayers were going, you're choking us. You're killing us.
• 1:08:19
  You know? And the government, well, okay. Well, then something's gotta be cut. Alright? We can't we can't not raise the taxes.
• 1:08:27
  We gotta cut something. So they went, okay. We'll cut the mental hospitals. They take a lot of money. And so they took these guys.
• 1:08:34
  They closed the hospital. They dumped them on the streets and said, okay. We're gonna start mental health centers. You know? If they won't take the medicines while they're being handed to them on the wards, they're not gonna go out through all the trouble to find a way to get to the mental health center to get more meds.
• 1:08:51
  So where they are now is on the streets. You know, you see these guys on the streets talking to themselves or just yelling at somebody or just, you know, vagrants. They just... They can't... They don't fit in anywhere.
• 1:09:03
  They were better off or they're in prison. You know? So what happens is they they go nuts. They start using drugs, and then they do something stupid and they end up in prison. You know?
• 1:09:15
  So the prison is chock full of mentally ill patients that are costing the prison system a whole lot more than they did when they were on a psych ward, you know, being managed by a minimum amount of people. You know, now they have... In the prison, they have the security systems and all these guards they have to have around. Then you have to have psychiatrists that are, you know, feeding these guys, and then you have prisoners who won't take the meds, and they're going off in the prison units. You know?
• 1:09:47
  It it it had the opposite effect of what they wanted. It became
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: Prisons are often as a private companies, though. Right? So those are
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: Well, the private... Yeah. They're bad. They're bad. I knew a warden who worked there.
• 1:10:00
  They don't care about anything except money. Yeah. They will run that prison as cheaply as they can. There are no rehabilitation programs. They might let in AA or something like that, but there is no rehabilitation anything in those programs.
• 1:10:13
  They just run them as cheaply as they can. They pay the wardens a lot of money, but everybody else gets paid less, including their guards, which get paid less and have poorer benefits than if they were a guard for the state, one in one of the state prisons. They are a horrible idea. It's a political thing where the the private prisons that go to the governor or whoever these senators are and say, hey. We'll we'll we'll, give you so much money or we'll we'll fund your...
• 1:10:42
  This or that for you if you vote for private prisons. They're a bad idea. They're an awful idea. People people are coming out of regular prisons much worse than when they went in. But private prisons, they're coming out a whole lot worse than when they went in.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: And so how... What changes did you see coming from seven years in a psych ward, then going into the prison? What was that change like?:
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: Well, far as studying the voices, it was great. Because because now You
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: can ask whatever questions you want to. Right? There's no one looking over your shoulder.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah. Yeah. There's no, like, having to worry about a prisoner going telling the the psychiatrist that, I was asking questions that they didn't like. You know? So I had...
• 1:11:29
  They... You know, we had a certain amount of work that we had to get done that they expected from us. But after it... When all that was done, you pretty much could do what you wanted, you know, as long as you're working with the inmates. You know?
• 1:11:40
  So what I did is I got a a group of schizophrenic inmates together. You know, they didn't know each other, but I always had a group of, you know, 10 to to 17 schizophrenics I was working with, you know, all the time. And I made a deal with them that, you know, I'll help you out all I can. I'll do what I can for you. But in exchange, I want you to tell me what these voices are telling you when you're in the office or what they're telling you outside of the office, you know, where I had a window into their mind, you know, and I could see what these things are doing in real time, you know, or what they were telling the patient over over the week or what they were telling the patient as he was coming to my office.
• 1:12:28
  Right? And that got interesting because one after another, they were telling the patients, don't go see him. He's a nut. He he doesn't know what he's doing. He's a crazy man.
• 1:12:40
  It just... Don't go there. Don't tell him anything. You know? And they all did anyway.
• 1:12:44
  I found a lot of them were just as interested in what these voices were as I was. They didn't know.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: Interesting. And and you're finally someone that they spent a huge portion of their life. They can't talk about that, a, because the voices tell them not to. But if they do, people that... No one knows how to handle that, but now they finally have someone that acknowledges the existence of these entities speaking to them, and they probably they probably felt this strong connection with you.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: They they did. And it was... It it started off real slow with just tidbits that I learned in the in the psychiatric hospital about the voices. You know? So I bring these guys in.
• 1:13:22
  Are you hearing voices? Are you hearing voices in your head? And you're, well, yeah. And I said, well, I know this much about them. You know?
• 1:13:29
  And it's stuff that none of the other psychs would know, you know, because they weren't asking questions. So I know they're this way, and I know they're this way, and I know they do this kind of stuff and that kind of stuff. And so what else can you tell me? You know? So each tidbit I had that that matched the way these voices operated was like a a little more...
• 1:13:52
  It got a little more ground. So it was like priming the pump.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: You're building trust with them.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: Building trust and and showing that I knew stuff about the voices that none of the other psychs did, you know, that none of the other psychs were even looking into. So I had a I had a window into their minds, you know, what these things are saying, how they operate, what they're telling them. You know, it's like opening up that window and just looking in there and going, well, what about this or what about that? And so I was asking them all kinds of questions, you know, hundreds of questions. And I was learning a lot about about the voices.
• 1:14:28
  And after a while, the the... These patterns started coming out. K? So I'm gonna quickly go through them because these are on my website at jerrymarcenski.com. So any of you guys working in mental health with schizophrenics, go to my website at jerrymarcenski.com, then go to articles.
• 1:14:51
  Okay? You'll see it down there on the right hand side. K? And then go down and then you'll you'll have... Should be patterns the voices run should be somewhere in there.
• 1:15:09
  There it is. Patterns. List of lies, patterns. So the patterns of
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: voices run. List of lies or patterns of voices run?
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Pattern. Right there. Yep. Then then you'll have the full list of patterns that they run.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: So don't listen to psychiatry's bullcrap that these things are auditory hallucinations. You get this list of patterns, and you take it into your schizophrenics and say, are the voices doing this? Are they behaving this way? This is an operational definition of what these voices actually are. Alright?
• 1:15:44
  So you go there, and you will see for yourself. Here's the list of patterns here. This is this is, twenty or so years of research.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: Your negativity, antireligious, foster
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: Foster and create create negative emotion, and they feed on that. They energetically drain their victims. They... They're parasites. They get louder after sunset, which is interesting.
• 1:16:09
  They get louder when they... When ignored. And I I don't know how many psychiatrists I heard say, oh, they're hallucinations. Just ignore them. And I called the patient back in.
• 1:16:18
  I said, well, how'd that work for you? Oh, it didn't work at all. They got louder. And consistently, when ignored, they get louder. They will not be ignored.
• 1:16:25
  They foster self destructive behavior. They want the person to sabotage themselves, to hurt themselves. They want conflict, turmoil, suffering. You know? They they want all that stuff.
• 1:16:37
  You know? It's negative, negative, negative to generate that negative emotional energy that they feed off of. They foster isolation. You know? They destroy marriages and relationships.
• 1:16:47
  They don't want the schizophrenic to have any friends whatsoever. They tell them that they're plotting against you. They're... Don't trust them. You know?
• 1:16:56
  They demand the attention of their victims. You know? They they just won't let loose. They'll just keep on and keep on until you give them attention. They maneuver for increased control.
• 1:17:07
  You know? So a lot of times these guys, they drive their mothers or fathers or family members nuts with their bad behavior. They're acting out. So the parents go, you know, get the hell out of here. Go lock yourself in the bedroom and stay there.
• 1:17:22
  That's the worst thing you could do. They... Because now it's just them and the voices. And the voices are chipping away at them, trying to get more and more control of their behavior. Gaslighting.
• 1:17:34
  There was there was one, one schizophrenic guy who the voices convinced him that he had murdered somebody, but he didn't know who that was. But he felt like he had done it. And he was going, well, what should I do? Should I turn myself into the cops? And if I do, they'll...
• 1:17:52
  Well, if I do and I didn't murder anybody, then they'll know I'm nuts and they'll lock me up and fill me full of drugs. On the other hand, if he didn't tell them, what happened was every time a siren, he heard a siren from the police or fire or whatever, the voices would tell him that they're after you, here they come, they're looking for you. So, they had him in this catch 22. And each time he heard a siren, it was generating massive amount of negative energy that they were feeding off of. So they were gaslighting him.
• 1:18:22
  They do all this stuff one by one, you could see it. If you're working with schizophrenic, ask them and they will tell you. You know, these aren't hallucinations. This is a well laid out manual. It's like it was written in some cosmic, hell somewhere.
• 1:18:40
  That's... This is another interesting one. They have complete access to the person's memory. They can go up there and they can pull out every rotten thing that you've ever done and rub it in your face until they just start generating that negative emotion due to whatever shame that they can generate. Okay?
• 1:18:59
  So the other thing that's really strange is the schizophrenic always has a hard time at first figuring out what is the difference between the voice they have in their own head and these things that are barging in there and telling them to do all these things. Because for the most part, there is no, we are the voices, and we're telling you what to do. It's not like that.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: It's just their own voice, basically.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: It's just it's just the sound of the it's just like the tens of thousands of other thoughts that go through your mind on a regular day. Only those thoughts are hijacked with you're rotten or you're stupid, but they don't sound like anything different than what you would think in the... You know, it's not... There's no difference in tone or amplitude or anything like that. It's just like, well, you're such a stupid person.
• 1:19:47
  Don't like you. It's stuff like that. It's... Everybody's come... Had these thoughts.
• 1:19:53
  They don't come from you. They weren't they weren't there when you were born. You know? And neither were these voices. They come from somewhere.
• 1:20:03
  And psychiatry never looks into thoughts. Yeah, here's another one. The voices don't want the victim to tell anybody about them. I remember one of the patients I was working with, the voices came through and said, don't tell him anything. He already knows too much.
• 1:20:23
  And the the the patient told me that, and I went, well, that's interesting. Interesting. Yeah. So, you know, what... When I was handing out the twenty third Psalm, some of the voices were just so persistent that they couldn't break them.
• 1:20:38
  I mean, they were just as constant stream of abuse and that was unbreakable. If you get a rubber band and you snap it hard, so it it delivers a little shock. It will shut them up long enough to repeat the twenty third song.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: So at least these people with that, they're they're... They have some control over what's happening. They're starting to gain control a little bit. And that gives them so much more hope than this crap like, oh, the only thing you can do is take these these toxic meds. That's all you can do.
• 1:21:11
  There's nothing else you can do about these things. Your brain's got a chemical imbalance, and it's broken. It'll be broken for the rest of your life, and there's nothing else you can do. You know? You're you're just broken.
• 1:21:23
  So method.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: With with a lot of these prisoners that are obviously in there for committing a bad deed, how many of the people... Obviously, you saw just a sample population. How many of them do you think were actually in prison because of the actions that these voices told them to do versus their own free will to commit wrong.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: Virtually all. Virtually all of
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: them. Really?
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Well, they hit us all. It's not like they just hit these guys. I mean, they hit us all.
• 1:21:54
  You know? Like, you you could be driving in traffic and somebody cuts you off, and all of a sudden, it's like, I gotta kill that guy. Know? Psychiatry and psychology don't ask where these thoughts come from. They don't ask where thoughts come from at all.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: They say, oh, this guy's got a bad temper, or this guy's got a pattern of this behavior.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. This is an anger, anger disorder or something like that. You know? They... Nobody's ever found a thought in anybody's head.
• 1:22:20
  You know, they could... All these autopsies, nobody's found a thought in anybody's You know? So the thing is, before any action is taken, there needs to be a thought directing that action to be taken. Where does that thought come from? They don't ask that because they can't measure it.
• 1:22:39
  They can't see it. They can't feel it. They can't smell it. They can't touch it. So they go, oh, well, it doesn't exist.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: They can't profit from it.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: They can't profit from it. That's another one. You know? So it's like, well, we're not touching this because it's too ethereal. Yeah.
• 1:22:56
  So it's like, we're not gonna touch it. They don't go there.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: Did you did you ever have any instances where you were able to communicate with the voices directly through this person as kind of medium?
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I did that all the time.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: And what what was that
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: like again? It was it was like a... Well, let let me give you one instant. Now I don't like talking to them because they're so negative. They just feel icky.
• 1:23:24
  You know? There there was one time where I was practicing something from a book called Spirit Releasement Therapy by Baldwin. K? So I was talking to this one prisoner who had two voices in his head. Now what I'd learned previously somewhere was that there is a...
• 1:23:55
  What do you call it? A ranking to these things.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: Like a hierarchy.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So the the voices are basically foot soldiers. Alright? Then above them, there's a supervisor. And I've I've watched them.
• 1:24:09
  There was one girl I was working with where the voices weren't mean enough to her. So the supervisor switched the one voice that wasn't mean enough and put some up... Some other voice in there that was meaner. So they're... They appear to be assigned to destroy certain individuals.
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: So hold on. This is... So basically, through the conversations and and with these voices, you've determined that... Well, okay. So we've already established that there's some sort of handbook.
• 1:24:40
  Alright? There's some sort of handbook that gets printed off in the the the presses of hell that these voices get, which is here's how you
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Operating manuals for destroying humans.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: But but then... So beyond that, though, they've got, like, a management hierarchy where you've got, okay, these voices are managed by this person. Maybe that person has someone managing them.
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: And Yep. Yep. And I've I've I've had that happen right in my face. There was there was one prisoner I was working with who had two voices. Okay?
• 1:25:07
  And so I started talking to him. I'm like, you know, how does it feel doing what you're doing? You must be bored stiff just putting rotten thoughts in this guy's head all the time. I said, you know? And he goes, yeah.
• 1:25:23
  Yeah. It it gets boring. I said, have you been told you have no light? And he goes, yeah. You know, I was told that if if I didn't do what I was told, I would cease to exist.
• 1:25:36
  It's what the voices were saying. And I said, do you believe you have no light? And he goes, yeah. I don't have any light. I said, you willing to go take a look?
• 1:25:45
  Right? And he goes, well, yeah. Okay. I'll take a look. So I just imagined I was traveling with whatever this thing was deeper into itself.
• 1:25:56
  And I said, do you see it yet? He go, no. I don't see it. Okay. Let's keep going.
• 1:26:01
  Do you see it yet? No. No. I don't see it yet. Okay.
• 1:26:05
  Let's keep going. Okay. What do you see now? He said, I see a dim orange light. I said, weren't you told that you didn't have any light in you?
• 1:26:15
  And the and the thing got furious. It was like, I was lied to. You know? And the thing is they're liars themselves. I mean, they're consummate liars.
• 1:26:23
  They lie about everything. But when they find out that they've been lied to, they go ballistic. And that surprised me. I mean, why would there be such a reaction, you know, to to light, which this guy didn't even believe he had. You know?
• 1:26:39
  So we we went up next to the light, and I said, stick your hand in there. You know? He goes, no. No. No.
• 1:26:46
  That'll burn me. I've been told it'll burn me. So it won't burn you. Just stick your hand in there real quick. So he sticks his hand in there and pulls it back out.
• 1:26:54
  And I said, did that burn you? No. Said, okay. Go ahead and walk into it. K?
• 1:26:59
  So it it walks into it. And I said, okay. I want you to call somebody you trust to come and take you out of here because you're in deep trouble with the dark side now. You've spoken to me. You know?
• 1:27:16
  You've you've given me information. You've listened to what I said. You found the light. If you go back there now, they're gonna send you to the pit. Your life is gonna be absolute hell.
• 1:27:29
  You know, you can't go back there. You know what's gonna happen to you if you go back there. So I said, do you have any relatives or anybody you know that can come and... You can call to come and get you? And, you know, there was uncle Thomas or somebody showed up.
• 1:27:45
  And I'd say, well, do you trust uncle Thomas? Goes, yeah. I trust him. I said, well, go with him. K?
• 1:27:51
  So he goes with him, and that voice is gone.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: No long... Yeah. It's no longer there. So we went after the second one, did the same process. That one was gone.
• 1:28:02
  And I thought this guy was cleared. You know? But then after after a little period of silence, he said, I I hear another voice. And I said, thought you told me there there were just two. And he said, there was.
• 1:28:16
  I said, well, where'd this next one come in? He goes, well, that's their supervisor. He's pissed. He doesn't like what you did at all. He's pissed.
• 1:28:25
  You know? And there's nothing I could do about him. He wasn't going anywhere.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: Wow. Incredible.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: So there is a way to do this. Yeah. You know? There there is a cure for schizophrenia, and anything that will get rid of those voices, the person will return to normal. You know?
• 1:28:51
  But psychiatry is making... Know, psychiatry and big pharma are making $13,700,000,000 a year selling these toxic drugs. They don't want a cure. They wanna keep selling toxic drugs that are poisoning people.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: And so which makes you wonder if there's this hierarchy, what level of that hierarchy is influencing big pharma? It's a whole different... That's a...
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: They're they're a very demonic organization. Yeah. And so... Look at look at the look at COVID.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, exactly.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: It was... You couldn't get a darker evil than what happened there. It still boggles my mind that Fauci's still walking the streets. Yeah. They should've hung that guy.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, exactly. I mean... And so...
• 1:29:47
  But... So so okay. So in terms of, okay, trying to figure out what is the intent, obviously, we've established that there are
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: That that word intent is very important because in figuring out what these voices... Which voices belong to the, you know, the thoughts of the person and which are coming from the the voices, it's the intent. The intent of the voices is never positive. It's always negative. It's destructive.
• 1:30:17
  It's it's demeaning. It's it's negative. That's one of the main ways you tell them apart from the thoughts that the person normally is running. And, you know, it's very deceptive because it it all... For most people, it all sounds the same.
• 1:30:32
  You know? There's no, like, where the voices and, you're you're no good and you're rotten, that kind stuff. No. It's just a a thought that appears in their thought stream telling them, hey. You're no good.
• 1:30:44
  You never were. Your parents said.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: And so you mentioned, though, that they're harvesting. Right? Which, you've probably heard, I've come across the term louche before, right? That there's these That's entities
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: exactly what it is.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: Louche. And so... Which makes you think, Okay, so if you have these foot soldiers, you have their managers or supervisors, you have this hierarchy, then it's kinda like... I mean, I'm not sure if you've seen the show Monsters Inc. Right?
• 1:31:13
  It's it's one of the Disney anime... It's a really... When you look at it, it's really creepy. The whole thing about it is actually there's the monsters that come out of your closet, come out of your bed, they're actually real monsters, but they live in this other dimension. Their job is to scare the children, and the more they scare the children, the more they fill up their energy resources.
• 1:31:29
  Like, this is
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 2: the Disney thing. Right? Yes. Well, that's true.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: And so, basically, these are... I mean, I... I'd call them as demons, right, in terms of what these things or entity, whatever they are. But, basically, that there's something about a human being, right, if you look at this in a very practical sense, that if human beings are a resource to them, there's something inside of us. Maybe it's a certain energy that we have.
• 1:31:53
  Maybe it's part of
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 2: It's the emotional energy that we generate. They can't generate it themselves. You know? So we're like they're cattle.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: Yes. You know? Yes.
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: We're we're like a cow.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: You know? The farmer takes Right.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: Yep. They're milking. The farmer takes the cow out of the out of the pasture, locks him up, isolates him, milks him, Right? Takes the milk and then turns him loose to go generate, you know, more... Eat more grass and generate more milk.
• 1:32:22
  They're doing the same thing to us, only it's an emotional draining. You know? And, you know, we... I I think I ran a statistical test once, a one to 10 thing. It was just a simple test asking schizophrenics, you know, how much energy do you have before the voices attack and how much energy do you have after the voices attack?
• 1:32:45
  And it was a statistically different result, not due to chance. It it was either, you know, one chance in a thousand or five chances in a thousand, but it it was not the... That... That's what the chant... That...
• 1:33:01
  That's what the statistic was. You know? The the chances of this happening by randomly are five in one thousand or one in one thousand. I forgot what the level of that that we're... But it was a t test.
• 1:33:15
  It was a simple t test.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: Gosh. And so they've got this sounds to be some sort of very organized mass harvesting operation.
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: Yep. And I think they have to forward some of the energy that they take. They have to funnel it upward to the higher ups.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: Which also then... Okay. So then if we're looking at just the world that we live in today, you look at the negative... The fear cycles of the media, you look at the... What social media does to people, you also then, you look at the mass proliferation of SSRIs and these drugs and everything, you could almost, like we mentioned about Big Pharma earlier, come to a conclusion that some levels of evil entities have seized large amounts control...
• 1:34:05
  Of control over our world and our society to create an entire society that is feeding these demons or feeding whatever these entities are, fear. And then you bring in all the SSRIs and all the drugs, even the legalization of marijuana, which I'm sure also is doing similar things to their psychology and that...
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: Yep. Dumbing down the consciousness of humans.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: And so all of this so that... Basically, that... It's a frightening way to look at what's happening in the world right now. Well,
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: is. You know? So it's like, okay. Who controls this planet? Yeah.
• 1:34:44
  You know? Even the Bible said that the, the archons, the the evil angels were thrown down on this planet.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: You know? And you look at what's going on. Look at all the wars right now. Look at all the suffering. Look at all the anguish, the people starving and and, dying and and disease and And suicide.
• 1:35:06
  Suicide. That's the other thing. Okay. So here you have this this modern science psychiatry. And in The United States, fifty thousand people a year are committing suicide.
• 1:35:20
  A good many of them are on antipsychotic and antidepressive drugs, and a lot of those antidepressive drugs are labeled, hey. May cause suicidal ideation. So what kind of craziness is this? And where do those thoughts come from for those people to kill themselves in the first place?
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: Or like like Lindsay Clancy. We're talking... Right? Why why would a mother kill her children?
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: Right. And why would a... Why would somebody kill themselves?
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: You know? And that... That's where mace comes in. There's a little write up on mace. There...
• 1:35:50
  It's an energetic psychotherapy. It's not a talk therapy, but it actually works. It's a MACE energy method up there.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: Is this... This is the page, right, for MACE?
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's the page. Yeah. That's the page for MACE. So you can you can can look...
• 1:36:09
  Click on the, analysis, you know, the statistical analysis. Just click on that.
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, right here.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Bring it up if it... If it'll come up. Is that what came up when you clicked on it?
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: Here we go.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: Okay. This is this is the actual data.
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 1: So so... Okay. So what is... Explain what is the MACE method? Is this something that you developed?
• 1:36:37
  Is this something
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: No. No. I didn't develop it. It was developed by a guy who spent his entire life, developing it, and he wanted to know how the mind worked. He wasn't a psychologist or psychiatrist, thank god, because he would've never came to the right answer.
• 1:36:53
  He was a ship captain. Oh. Okay. Go go to the front page of my website. There's a little explanation, I think, of of the MACE method there.
• 1:37:05
  That's it right there. Click on the YouTube. Go up. Up. Up.
• 1:37:09
  Now up. More. Right there. Oh, okay. Click on that.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 3: The MACE energy method is a new scientific approach to understanding human behavior. It has nothing to do with psychology, psychiatry, medicine or religion. It comes from fifty years of research into how unseen forces affect our lives. On a universal level, it is generally accepted that we are made of mind, body and spirit. The MACE method recognizes a fourth element, identities.
• 1:37:40
  Identities cannot be seen. They have no weight, color or form. You can witness identities in behaviors and emotional patterns. Just like you can't see the air, gravity or magnetism, but you can witness its effects by a flag waving in the air, something falling or using magnets. We spend our time, energy and attention creating positive identities we happily showcase.
• 1:38:03
  They help us thrive. On the same spectrum, on the complete opposite side are negative identities. These are created during moments of hurt, overwhelm or an upset. We spend the same if not more time energy and attention keeping those negative identities away but at a subconscious level they're there lingering affecting what we say what we don't say what we do what we don't do. Just draining our energy at a subconscious level.
• 1:38:34
  Jerry Marzinski, a retired licensed psychotherapist with over fifty years of frontline experience in state prisons, county and private psychiatric hospitals, mental health centers, and emergency room psychiatric care, can attest with absolute confidence that the MACE method is the most effective psychotherapy he has ever implemented for resolving psychological problems and trauma. The method consists of a series of questions aimed at discovering upsets while locating and eliminating negative identities permanently. No need to share who was involved in that upset, what happened, why it happened, whether you were two or 22 when it happened. That's your personal story. With the utmost intention of preserving your privacy, each session is completely client led.
• 1:39:20
  Meaning Jerry meets you exactly where you are in your healing journey and facilitates this cutting edge energetic psychotherapy often in an hour or less. The process consists of two sessions conducted virtually in the comfort of your own home or safe space. In real time you reclaim your energy, restore your power, and rediscover the real you. Jerry has helped transform the lives of hundreds of clients. Our reputation built on testimonials, results, and lived experience.
• 1:39:49
  To schedule your session and experience the MACE method for yourself, visit jerrymarzinski.com and book your appointment today.
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: Okay. That's that's very interesting. So so obviously Very different. Oh, mean, that's fascinating to me. Right?
• 1:40:06
  Because this whole... I mean, whole... Our whole discussion is very different, right, by by whatever you're measuring, you know, things with. And so, obviously, that's the next rational idea or question in this is, have you been able... Now that you've actually identified the real source of this, it's not some chemical imbalance, everything, have you been able to help people?
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's two things going on. You've got the entities, which are these negative energetic entities. Right?
• 1:40:37
  Parasites. And then you've got what what they call a negative identity. K? So this is garbage that that was put in... What happens when you run into a trauma?
• 1:40:49
  There's a very bad feeling, and it just stays there and goes round and round and round, just remunerating over and over and over again. Now this horrible thing happened. And at the same time, there's a decision that you make as to what part you played in that trauma and who you are as a result of it. K? That's where the problem comes in.
• 1:41:10
  You're in a traumatic state. You make a decision about who you are as a result of this one traumatic incident, and that gets thrown into the subconscious mind. K? So after after it it sits there and just torments you, it's in your face long enough, the ego shows up and goes, you're not doing good with this. Let me handle it.
• 1:41:31
  And it takes it. It throws it into the subconscious mind and it locks it down. K? So it's not dead. It's still alive.
• 1:41:40
  So it's affecting you like a computer virus. It it determines what you say, what you don't say, what you think, what you do, what you don't do, you know, and and a lot of the decisions you made, and it it operates automatically. You don't even know it's there. K? So a lot of times what happens, say, somebody somebody experiences rape.
• 1:42:07
  A Okay? And that's thrown up there. Now what happens anytime somebody shows up that reminds her of the person who did that rape, that thing's gonna go off. You know? And it...
• 1:42:27
  It'll be like a landmine. It'll blow, and it'll tell her to attack that person or run from that person or avoid that person. Take the person you hate. No matter where you go, that guy shows up, you know, eventually. Right?
• 1:42:39
  So it takes a lot of energy to keep all that crap in because when it leaks out, you get in trouble. You know, there's conflict. So to concentrate on your energy. So what mace does, that's all ephemeral stuff. I mean, it's thoughts and feelings.
• 1:42:56
  It's not nothing anything. You know, it's not nothing tangible. It's nothing physical that you can get your hands on. But you know the energy by its effects, you know, and it's affecting the person negative... Negatively.
• 1:43:10
  They... They're reacting to things around them to remind them of stuff that's tucked in their subconscious, but they don't even know it's there.
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: So it's kinda like PTSD. Similar. Right?
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. As a matter of fact, ACE works wonders with PTSD. So you go in there, you get those thoughts and those feelings, and you can... You need to get them out of that ephemeral state because you can't do anything with just the energy of that, you know.
• 1:43:39
  So if you can turn that into an image, that's one step closer to physical reality. And if you can get it in that image, then you can get rid of all that stuff that's tagged to it. And it... Just like that in an hour, that trauma is gone. It's not there anymore.
• 1:43:57
  So you you tell the person, okay. Go back to that trauma. How do you feel about it now? And they go, neutral.
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 2: It's just not there anymore. So it's like draining a car battery. You can get a brand new car battery, charge it full. K? And then if you drain it down to nothing, it's dead.
• 1:44:16
  It stays dead. You can't charge it again. So what we're doing is draining that negative identity until there's nothing... No energy left in it. And then once you drain its energy, its existence disappears also.
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: So... And it reminds me of, I think when I was back in high school, maybe I read, psychocybernetics. Like, getting into understanding what your self image is. I forget the exact terms for it. But also how you...
• 1:44:44
  Like, for me, as an example, I was a fat kid. I was overweight when I was younger. And there's still probably some part of me inside that still thinks I'm a fat kid. Right? And I'm trying to beat that guy up and shove him in the locker and get rid of him.
• 1:44:59
  And I think I've done a decent job at it. But for some other person, that could be, say they were raped and then they convinced themselves they were a whore, they deserved it. Right? They developed this thing inside of them.
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: Or they're worthless. It's one of the most common ones that we run into.
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 1: And is that then, so you'd mentioned two parts. Part of it is this self identity, which is oftentimes rooted in a negative event or something in their lives. Yes. And then you have these entities. Am I correct that the entities, well becomes their greatest source?
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. They'll... They will feed off that. They will reinforce it.
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: You know? So that's why even though using MACE with schizophrenics, even though a lot of times it'll only get rid of the voices in maybe fifteen percent of the cases, it gets rid of a lot of the garbage that they feed off of. It's just not there anymore. So one of the things that... And for a schizophrenic, as paranoid schizophrenic to recover, they have to understand that those voices they're hearing are not who they are.
• 1:46:03
  And I've had prisoners. I don't know how many prisoners would ask the voices, who are you? You know, what are you? And they would respond, we are you. So they want you to believe that those thoughts are are yours and they belong to you.
• 1:46:19
  And, unfortunately, from the time we're kids, you know, it... We're taught that every thought that comes into your head belongs to you. That's you. Now that's that's that's way, way wrong.
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 1: It's interesting because actually that my my five year old, or she's six now, I think when she was four or five, five years old, she had this little period of kinda silly stuff. Right? But she would she'd get really upset. Like, what's wrong, June? What's what's bothering you?
• 1:46:44
  And she would say that, well, I... My... I I heard this voice that told me to do something bad. And it it might have been something silly, like, you know, steal a piece of candy or, you know, pinch her little sister. That's right.
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: That's that's them.
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: And and so what and so what we would just reinforce or we'd say, well, June, that's not you. Right? Our our our brains can have voices that actually aren't us, and so you don't just assume that every voice is you. And so we said, look. Good.
• 1:47:11
  The best thing you could say is you... Well, if you hear that thought, you say, that is not me. I'm not gonna listen to it. And then it went away for her.
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: Good. Good. That's exactly what you should have done. You know? And it's it's interesting she was able to see that.
• 1:47:25
  Yeah. You know? That's not me. It told me to do this. It's not me.
• 1:47:28
  I I don't like it.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: I can imagine that for some parents, the kid does that, and they say, you're a bad... You're bad. You're bad. You did something wrong, which they even further said that cements that negative identity as being them.
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 2: Right. And once these negative identities get started, they they just run automatically. So an example is when you first started driving, you're you're being real cautious and watching everything and your attention is everywhere and you, you know, you come completely on the driving. Now you get in the car and and it's, you know, your car driver identity takes over. You're thinking about something else, and the car is being driven automatically without your conscious awareness until something happens that you need your full awareness.
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 2: You know? There's there's times where I I always go thinking I was going somewhere else, and I was just driving to a place that I normally went to, and it wasn't the place I wanted to go to. Yeah. You know? And it's like I almost ended up in the wrong place.
• 1:48:24
  You know? The car driver identity, it's automatic. You know? So... Uh-oh.
• 1:48:30
  No. I can't answer that now. You don't have?
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 1: Well, think we just we just crossed over our our our time, and so I do wanna be mindful of your time. And so, Well, I guess... So with MACE, I know that if I remember correctly, you retired as a psychotherapist, right? But you still... Do you still do this MACE actively?
• 1:48:50
  Is something people can contact you and and and you can set up a session with them?
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 2: Yep. Yep. It gets it gets rid of trauma virtually instantly.
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: Really? Okay.
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 2: Within an within an hour, the worst trauma is gone.
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: Really? And so on your website, which I'll make sure this is put into the the description, how do people contact you here? They just click on the... Is it online consultation? Is that what they do?
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they can do that or they can write me at jerrymarzinski dot com.
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. And so what's your email address?
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: It's jmarzandthenumber1@outlook.com.
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 1: Okay. And then also on your website, there's a form here.
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 1: They can do that. Okay. Interesting. Wonderful. Gosh, I feel like that I I could still talk for five more hours with you.
• 1:49:46
  I'm so fascinated by this topic.
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 2: I I could too. You know, I'm only partway through.
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. This is... It's really interesting. I mean, I think that there are... As we talked about, if you look at our society through this lens, I think a lot of things make a lot more sense.
• 1:50:09
  And if you look at as an individual being, in essence, possessed by these entities, then how do you cure a society possessed by these entities, right? And it's, think this is
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: You know have that they exist. Yeah. You know? And that's that's one thing really crazy about American society. They they go like, oh, the science, the science, the science.
• 1:50:31
  You know? And it's like, you know, two thousand years ago, Jesus was driving these things out of people constantly. There are 23 times in the Bible where he cured crazy people by driving these demons out of them. Yeah. And they returned to normal.
• 1:50:48
  Yeah. And his his disciples were doing the same thing. What what makes people think that they went anywhere? They're still here. Yeah.
• 1:50:57
  They're still plaguing us.
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 2: They still hate Jesus. They hate the Bible. They... All the stuff that they hated back then, they still hate now. Unless you're aware that they exist, you can't do anything about them.
• 1:51:08
  And when you have these bozos in psychiatry going, oh, yeah. It's a psychiatric diagnosis, and we have the science behind it. You can take these drugs, and oh, you'll feel better. It won't be as bad, but those drugs don't cure anything. They don't cure anything.
• 1:51:25
  They make it worse than the long run. They don't cure anything. And a lot of times, they they keep it longer. Yeah. It it goes longer and and causes neurological...
• 1:51:37
  Eats out the the nervous system. Yeah.
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 1: I Yeah. I mean, I I think that the... I think the world's largest religion is the religion of science. That's what I think. Yeah.
• 1:51:49
  Think it... I think I think it's a religion. I think that people believe in it.
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 2: Well... And... Yeah. Look what... Look at COVID.
• 1:51:54
  Oh, trust the science. Trust the science while they're while they're murdering millions of people.
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Even doctors say, I am science.
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Trust the science. Yeah.
• 1:52:03
  Yeah. Trust the science, bunch of freaking morons. Yeah.
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 1: Well, Jerry, it has been such a pleasure speaking with you. I I really, really enjoyed this conversation. I hope the people that are watching do as well. Encourage people to follow your work. You know, make sure your website is in is in the description for the show.
• 1:52:21
  And hopefully, you get a lot of people contacting you and and and working on their own ways and their own lives on the things that they can control. And so, yeah, thank you for, thank you for, again, for giving us almost two hours of your time. And thank you for doing what you're No problem. That's really, really important work that you're doing. I just wanna say thank you for staying with me to the end of this episode, and thank you for being on this journey with me through hundreds of interviews, hidden history, survivor stories, deep dives, and so much more.
• 1:52:49
  Because of your support, I've been able to stay truly independent. Means there's no backer, there's no funder behind me, no one telling me what I can say or what I can't say. It's just me and my family bringing this information to you. So here's how you can help, and it doesn't cost you a thing. First, just hit the like button on whatever platform you're watching or listening on.
• 1:53:07
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• 1:53:24
  And if you wanna connect with others and join me in the Arc community, just visit buildthearc.com. You're gonna find like minded people connecting with each other both online and in person. Thanks again for being on this journey with me, and I'll see you again real soon.