Latest / Leading By Example: Executives Making An Impact / The Science of Leadership: Raj Seshadri, Chief Commercial Payments Officer, Mastercard

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The Science of Leadership: Raj Seshadri, Chief Commercial Payments Officer, Mastercard · Leading By Example: Executives Making An Impact

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: The one thing you learn in physics is just because
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: something feels it doesn't mean it's the end of the world.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: It just means you've got to try a different path,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: you got to try a different combination. And so that
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: flexibility and the fluidity of an approach while being structured,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: while having a clear idea of what is it that
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: one needs to get done. I think it translates very
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: well from academia into the business world.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: What do you get when you cross a scientist with
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: a C suite executive? A leader who knows how to
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: stay grounded in uncertainty and move forward with clarity. Hey everyone,
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: I'm Jessica Chen, host of Leading by Example. I'm also
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: an Emmy Award winning journalist and author of the book
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Smart Not Loud, How to Get noticed at work for
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: all the right reasons. Today I'm talking with Raj Sayshadri.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: She's a business leader with more than three decades of experience,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: and currently she serves as Chief Commercial Payments Officer at MasterCard,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: where she spent the last decade helping shape the future
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: of global payments. But before any of that, Raj was
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: a physicist, spending her days in the lab testing hypotheses,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: running experiments, and learning how to sit with the unknown.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: She didn't realize it at the time, but that training
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: would become a foundational piece of her leadership style, because,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: as it turns out, the same mindset that drives scientific
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: breakthroughs that curiosity, iteration, and resilience is exactly what makes
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: a great leader. In this conversation, Raj shares how she
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: uses the scientific method to make everyday business decisions, implement
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: new strategies, and more effectively communicate with her team. She
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: opens up about her own pivot from academia to the
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: corporate world and how she learned to approach managing people
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: and instead of experiments. We also get into how she
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: approaches leadership today, like staying deeply involved in hiring and
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: prioritizing a culture of not only inclusion, but decency within
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: her organization. Roj shows us that sometimes the best leaders
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: aren't the ones with all the answers, They're the ones
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: willing to test, learn and evolve in real time. I'm
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Jessica Chen and this is leading by example. Raj, thank
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: you so much for taking the time to spend this
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: morning with us, And just to get started, can you
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about who you are and
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: the work that you do.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Jessica. So, I am a former physicist strategy consultant.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I've let businesses, grown them, let people for many many years.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Now I work at MasterCard and these days I run
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: a commercial and new payment flows business.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: So I've been doing some research on you, and I
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: think what makes your background quite fascinating is how you
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: started with physics. But even before we get to that,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: I want to understand Raj from when you were born
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: and raised in India. So can you tell me a
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: little bit about growing up in India and what were
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: some of the values that perhaps your parents taught you
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: about your career and how you should think about the future.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, I grew up in India. I came to the
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: United States when I was eighteen, so all the formative
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: years were in India. And you know, it's interesting I
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: had a sense of leadership even then watching my father,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: who ran public sector companies. My uncle and aunt were physicians.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: I realized that it's less about their title and what
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: exactly they do, but more about the responsibility and the
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: impact that they have. I was really shaped by my mother,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: who went back to school when I was growing up
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: and she got a degree and then she had a
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: career while I was growing up and seeing her do that,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: the level of adaptability and resiliency and determination and reinvention
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: that it takes, do you realize that that's all part
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: of having a career. And back in the day in
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: India when I was growing up, I was lucky in
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: that I had my aunt and my mother, both of
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: whom worked and had professions. But it was unusual most
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: women did not work. They instilled in me this notion
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: that gender equity comes from every woman should have the
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: freedom to learn to work and very important to earn
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: right and that's what a career is about. So early
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: notions of like leadership and career were definitely formed by
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: my family in India.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: So as a young girl, were they perhaps pushing you
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  Speaker 2: in a particular direction or do they give you a
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  Speaker 2: lot of the freedom to choose what career path you wanted.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: They gave me plenty of freedom to choose what career
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: path I wanted. Having career was never forced on me,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: but it was encouraged. It was you know, you need
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  Speaker 1: to do something with your life where you have responsibility,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: you have impact, you've shaped the world, but there was
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: no particular path. I actually almost went to medical school
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: in India, almost went to engineering school in India, and
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: then I got admissions to Mantua, your college here in
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  Speaker 1: the United States, to do a liberal arts degree. And
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: one of the reasons I chose to come here is
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. Because
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: there you pick a path and you typically stay in
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: that path for pretty much the rest of your career.
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  Speaker 1: And there were so many different things I was interested
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: in that the liberal arts education sounded much more diverse,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: with many more things that one could do with it.
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  Speaker 1: So no, they never pushed me in any one direction.
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  Speaker 1: Of course, you know, growing up in India, like you're
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: a doctor or you're an engineer, and if failing that,
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: you can be a lawyer. Was definitely part of the culture,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: as you can imagine. But they let me choose. They
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: absolutely let me choose.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: That's fantastic. And then so you landed in physics. Can
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: you tell me what was it about physics that made
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: you go, I want to study bes I.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Came here to college and some of my closest professors
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: were in physics and math. I really enjoyed the area.
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  Speaker 1: It's very quantitative, it's very structured, and just the scientific
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: method is very special. That's what drew me to it.
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  Speaker 1: This notion that you see the world around you, you
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  Speaker 1: observe it, and you try and understand it and explain
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: it and make it sort of something you can predict.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: And you do it by having hypotheses, by experimentation. I
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: was an experimental physicist. By experimenting, the theorists would come
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: up with a theory and you'd say, you know, is
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: it right or wrong? Let me see if I can
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: prove or disprove it, and how can I iterate it
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: to make it closer to what we're observing so that
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: it could predict what we're observing. So it sort of
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: teaches you how to think, how to structure. You become
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: a lifelong learner because it teaches you how to get
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: up the learning curve on things that you haven't done before.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: You learn how to break down complex problems into parts
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: and think about each part. You basically approach things saying
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: the problem can be solved. There's no unsolvable problem, it's
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: just that we haven't found the solution yet. You value
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: criticism from the peers because you know that'll make it better.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: So you learn to iterate using their observations, their feedback,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: their questions. You learn from failure. Failure is not failure.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Failure just means it's another iteration. You've got to figure out, Okay,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: that path didn't work, Let's try a different path. There's
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: a level of time, honorance for ambiguity, no fear of
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: the unknown. These are all things that the scientific method
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: teaches you. And I loved physics.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: It's so interesting because you eventually got your PhD in physics,
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: so you spent years investing in learning this skill. And
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: I want to read this quote because I thought it
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: was so interesting. When you started to decide to pivot
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: away from physics, you said quote, I love physics, I
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: love math, but I was learning more and more about
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: less and less and talking to fewer and fewer people.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: That is so interesting. Can you tell me what was
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: going on?
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: What does that mean, Jessica, you've clearly done your homework.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: I can't remember when I said that, but I do
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: remember saying it. In physics, you go very deep into
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: a topic and you spend years researching and iterating and
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: discovering and problem solving in it, and I really enjoyed that,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: but I wanted to go broad, not deep. So that's
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: what I mean by you learn more and more, but
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: less and less, Like you could go super super super
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  Speaker 1: deep in one area and you talk to the few
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: people around the world that my be doing the same thing.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: And I was an experimental physicist in a lab. And
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: once you sure about what you are looking at and
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: your explanation for it, you might publish a paper, you
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: might go to a conference and share your findings with
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: others and listen to what they have found. But it's
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: not working with people. You don't have contact with people
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: all the time. And so I realized, you know, a
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: little bit of self discovery if what I liked about
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: what I was doing and what I missed in what
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: I was doing. I love the breadth of ideas. I
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: love working with teams, love working with people, and while
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: I was doing that in physics, I wasn't doing it
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  Speaker 1: with a lot of people, and so it was just
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: a journey of discovery. I think everyone goes through this
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: to learn take a clear mirror to yourself. And you're
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: doing this constantly right to say what am I good at?
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: What am I not good at what do I get
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: out of what I'm doing right now that I love?
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  Speaker 1: What am I missing that I would love? I think,
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: and it's worth experimenting to see whether if I get it,
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  Speaker 1: would I love it. So that's the journey of discovery.
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  Speaker 2: And then in that discovery, you decided to go to
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: business score and then what did that hell you about
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: where you really wanted to focus your career.
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  Speaker 1: It's funny, I don't think I ever, at any point
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: knew exactly where I'd end up. I tell young people
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: all of the time, which is you might have a plan,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: this a three five year plan, but keep your eyes open,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: let opportunities come your way. Doors will open that you
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: didn't know existed. So be open to what's out there,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: but have some sense of a plan behind you, but
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: don't be so rigid that you're so focused on just
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: that plan. That's really what took me to business school,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: and then I went to consulting because it was like
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: an extension of business school and an extension of academia
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: in a way. And then ended up in the corporate
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: world where I did strategy and then I led large
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: teams and delivered growth in businesses transformed businesses, et cetera.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: So it wasn't like I knew where I was going,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I knew the destination. It was more the journey and
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: enjoying each step of the journey and thinking about it
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: and thinking about the next two or three steps. Were
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: also being flexible so that if there's a different step
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: in a different direction, you're willing to try and experiment
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: with it and iterate and try it. Business the world
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  Speaker 1: is like the academic world, right, which is you're iterating,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: you're experimenting, you're testing, you're learning, you're understanding what is
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: it that might drive something forward, or what might drive
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: a person forward or a team forward, and then you
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: experiment with it, and sometimes it works. Very often it
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: doesn't work, so you have to tweak it. The one
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: thing you learn in physics is just because something fails,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: it doesn't mean it's the end of the world. It
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: just means you've got to try a different path. You've
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: got to try a different combination that flexibility and that
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: fluidity of an approach while being structured, while having a
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: clear idea of what is it that one needs to
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: get done. I think it translates very well from academia
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: into the business world.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: I can see kind of like how the scientific mindset
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: has really carried with you into your role and even
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: thinking about the business world. I want to now dive
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: into more of like the leadership lessons that you learned.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: What were some of the things that you saw, conversations
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: that you had that made you start to think about
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: leadership in the way you know it today.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: You know it's even when you're not a leader, you're
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: being led, and then you grow into a leader, right,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: You have smaller and smaller roles that then get bigger
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: and bigger and bigger. And you watch people, you watch leaders,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: you watch managers, and you always say, gosh, that part
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: of what she did, I'd love to be able to
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: do if I was in her shoes. That part of
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: what she did I probably wouldn't do. On this constant
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: observing and learning journey all your life. And I think
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: that comes from having a lot of curiosity about the
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: world and curiosity about what people are doing and how
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: they're leading. One of the earliest things I remember thinking
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: about is one leads from behind. You need followership. You
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: can't be a leader without followers and leading from behind
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: and letting people do what they need to do, but
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: within a structured context where what they're doing it's like
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: a jigsaw puzzle. What they're working on, the pieces assemble
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: into a beautiful picture, because if it doesn't, then it's
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: less organized. That's what a leader provides a vision, dividing
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: up the work, finding the right people appropriate for the work,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: not necessarily your echoes or your images, letting them work,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: give them with freedom, removing roadblocks, and then always thinking
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: about followership. Am I doing the right thing to help
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: them be successful? So that's one of the things I remember,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: And then the other one is just having grown up
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: in physics, I was very conscious of technology, change, innovation,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: et cetera. And they're being able to understand what new
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: technologies bring, what technological changes bring, what uncertainty brings, and
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: being able to not be afraid of it, but to
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: embrace it, to try it, to experiment with it. I
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: think that comes as part of leadership too, because you're
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: always facing new uncertain environments. I mean, we're living through
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: lots of geopolitical and macroeconomic stresses right now. We have
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: been living through in our entire generation technological change, information technology,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: you know, AI, etc. And so what does that do.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: What's the latest trend there? How can you embrace it?
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: How can you learn about it? These are all things
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: that I think shape a leader. And I remember thinking
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: about that as I was growing up, and you continue
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: to grow. I'm not done growing, by the way, Like
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: I said, there's no destination here.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: You're like, what do you think can I learn? Moving forward?
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: It's so interesting you said the word curiosity, and I
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: imagine a lot of that curiosity must have come from
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: perhaps your scientific background, where you are asking those questions.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: And I wanted to understand. Have you ever had a manager,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: maybe perhaps early on in your career that really taught
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: you Number one, this is how to lead, But on
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: the flip side, this is now not how we should
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: lead people. Do you have any personal experiences of what
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: you saw and how that shaped.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: You, Jessica, there was so many managers, because remember consulting,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: every project is a different management team, right. And then
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: even when I left consulting, all the years I've been
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: in corporate America, there have been lots of managers, managers, managers,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: senior leaders. Right. So there are lots of examples in
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: both categories. There's no one person who embodies either category.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: One of the things I learned is you said curiosity.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Always ask questions. Always make sure you understand what the
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: person is saying, or doing or coming from. You may
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: not be an expert in their area, but you do
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: want to make sure you understand how they're thinking about it.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: You want to learn about it, You want to look
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: at other sources of information to get smart on it.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: And good leaders do that, and I had leaders who
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: did that. The flip side of it is you also
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: have to have a point of view as a leader.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: If you don't have the particular technical expertise, it might
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: be asking other people for their view on what's being done.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: If you have the expertise to be able to think
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: about it and judge is what's being done the most
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: efficient effective way of doing it. To be able to
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: have a point of view, to have a hypothesis, to say,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: I think this is the answer. Have we thought about this,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: let's prove or disprove it. Being able to also help
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: the person think about what they could do to get
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: their faster better to come up with a more complete
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: answer is also what a leader does. Basically helping the
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: people do the best work they can and so over
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: the course of my career, I saw lots of different
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: leaders of many different styles, extroverts, introverts, visionary leaders think.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: But the bottom line is the things that they had
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: in common that I wanted to embrace was this proving,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: this understanding, this questioning, you know, helping the person think
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: about what they were doing to help them do it
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: in a different way perhaps that would be better. And
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: removing roadblocks so when they get stuck, being there as
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: a sounding board to help them think it through, whether
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: it's a technical problem or whether it's a people problem
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: somebody on their team that they're struggling with, being a
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: sounding board for them.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about our listeners right now, and I imagine
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: our listeners are number one leaders already. Maybe they're managing
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: a team, they're managing a lot of people, and they're
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: listening to this to glean insight from how someone, for example,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: like you are leading people. And then I'm thinking about
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: maybe we have other listeners who are wanting to learn
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: these leadership skills, which is why they're listening to this podcast,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: because again they want to learn how fantastic leaders like
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: yourself are leading. And so you said the words point
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: of view, having a strong point of view, not being
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: afraid to test it, not being afraid to talk about
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: now from a younger leader's point of view, I feel
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: like they might walk into a meeting and then they
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: might go, oh, my gosh, I don't want to say
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: the wrong thing. I have a point of view, but
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I'm afraid it's not the right thing. How would you
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: encourage someone in that kind of position to build the
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: confidence to say something when stakes sometimes can feel so
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: high in a corporate environment.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: The first thing you have to understand is you have
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: to have the confidence in yourself, but not to the
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: point where you walk in and dominate the conversation. Right.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I mean because as an apprentice when you're young, you're
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: learning too from the people around you. But when you
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: have a point of view or an observation, if you're
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: nervous about saying it in a big meeting, don't say
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: it in a big meetings. Start with say to a
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: couple of people on the side and say, hey, what
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: do you think this could be an idea? Sort of
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: build consensus around it, or they might shut it down
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: and say that's a bad idea, And then you think
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: about it, right, and so you're not looking for the
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: big moment, being able to think and express your point
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: of view and interact with everyone individually in small groups.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: As you do that, your points of view do emerge,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: and then you also emerge as a good thought partner
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: for them, so they might bring their ideas to you
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: and you can build on it. And so I really
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: believe in this concept of a team. It's not as
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: if somebody wakes up one morning as a brilliant insight
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: in a meeting. That happens sometimes, but usually it's a
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: set of ideas that coalescent, grow and get shaped and
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: get more pointed in their direction as the team works
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: on it and as people think about the different facets
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: You mentioned building consensus outside the meeting as a way
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: to you know, shop around this idea. And I remember
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: there was once this research that I read about how
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: a lot of times the buy and you do get
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: happens before the actual meeting itself. It's you finding those supporters,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: those advocates. So you say that actually just reminds me
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: that there is study behind this that really touches show
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: a lot of times before the meetings, the decisions might
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: have already happened, or people have already formed their opinions, right, Yeah,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: that could happen.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: But you know, usually, at least in our culture, we
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: have something called the MasterCard way where we usually would
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: have an open, transparent conversation in the meeting. But that
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean you don't have conversations before the meeting to
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: test where your hypotheses are, where you could be wrong,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: where you could be right, figure out where your peers
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: are and what they're thinking about. And that's just the
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: normal course of conversation. So you don't need to have
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: everything happen before the meeting, because that's quite inefficient. Then
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: why I have the meeting, but you have a lot
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: of the conversations to think about the topic. You know,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: the usual course of your day, so that when you
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: come into a meeting on a particular topic, you have
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: some sense of what your views are and what other
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: people's views are, and that helps.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: My guest is Raj Seshadri, Chief Commercial Payments Officer and MasterCard.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: It's time for a quick break and when we come back,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: we'll find out what it takes to stay ahead of
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: the curve and how to know if a risk is
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: worth taking. Welcome back to leading by example, Raj. We
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: know your background is very scientific, but in talking about leadership,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about how do you find the balance between
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: managing people and you know, those human characteristics versus solving
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: the technical problems that need to be solved. What's the
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: balance and how do you think about both?
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: You have to think about both. The scientific process I
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: was talking about that is applicable to the business world
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: where you have a hypothesis and you iterate and you
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: test and your experiment and you know you have the
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: ability to pivot and be agile to get to the
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: best answer. That's to some degree in a different context
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: true when you work with people as well, because different
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: people are different, They listen differently, they motivated differently, and
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: so how you influence them, how you coach them, how
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: you bring out the best in them, how you give
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: them positive and constructive feedback depends on the person. And
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: so as a leader, you know, as you grow you
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: develop a set of skills that again, it's that flexibility
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: and that iteration where based on the individual that you're coaching,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: you figure out what might work and then you try
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: and see if it works, and if it doesn't work,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: you tweak it. You iterate, and you figure out how
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: you can communicate with that person so that there's that connection.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, what matters is
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: the coaching and bringing out the best in the person.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: And so then you've got to figure out as a leader,
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: what techniques, what influencing skills, what methods work the best
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: with this person. So the same concept of like having
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: a HYPOTHESI is iterating, testing, experimenting works in the people context.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Two bringing out the best in people? Do you have
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: a particular story or an example of how you approached
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: trying to bring out the best in someone?
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: I think a key thing is making sure they know
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: what question are they working on, what are they trying
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: to achieve, what is their goal, what are they trying
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: to accomplish over what time frame and with what kind
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: of resourcing, And therefore, what is the method that they using,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: and is that the best approach or the best way
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: to approach the problem.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: It almost kind of sounds like as a leader to
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: bring out the best in people, you almost want to
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: be very clear on setting expectations.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as setting a direction and a vision of what
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: it is that you're trying to accomplish and what role
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: the work that that person is doing or that team
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: is doing, giving them a lot of room so that
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: they do it, but at the same time being there
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: as almost a safety net should they trip up, and
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: also as a guide to help them think through whether the.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: Approach they're taking is the right approach. So now let's
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: talk about your role at MasterCard. Can you tell us
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: a little bit about what is it that you do,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: what is it that you manage, and just kind of
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: an overview of it.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: So this is my third role at MasterCard. Love this firm,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: love the culture, and I'm responsible for a global commercial
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: payments and money movement business. And so that is payments
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: and money movement for small businesses, mid market companies, large corporations,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: also governments, individuals and people moving money to smaller businesses
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: into people around the globe. It's global. It's really fun
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: and very interesting.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Okay, so your scope is quite wide
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: but also very diverse. You're truly now a leader, a
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: leader at MasterCard, a leader at the firm, and in
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: many ways building that culture. And I imagine it's not
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: an easy role in the sense of how you have
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: to be thinking about strategy, but then execution. How do
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: you think about the two on a day to day basis.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, it is absolutely about both. And you have to
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: be able to go back and forth between the highest
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: levels of strategy down to the most detailed levels of
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: execution in the right mix, in the right way. In
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: the businesses that I have, the addressable market is enormous.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: In commercial payments alone, there's eighty trillion dollars out there.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Three trillion is carded, which means the seventy seven trillion
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: where one could do something different, and that's true for
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: money movement as well. And so the ability to actually
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: have a vision of path that attacks the very large
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: addressable opportunity, but in a way that's tangible, practical. You know,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: you can't follow the apple. You've got to figure out
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: what bites to take of the apple, and that's important,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: and how you eat the apple. I mean, I don't
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: know why I'm an apple analogy, but it matters, right
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: because there are more efficient ways of doing it places
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: where it is easier to go first and you learn
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: more versus going to the hardest place first. And so
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: having a strategic vision of what you want to do
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: at the top level, but then having a vision of
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: the practical strategy of what are you going to do
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: over the next year, three years, five years in order
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: to get going in that direction is important, and assembling
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: the right team is important, and then giving them the
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: pieces of the puzzle to go after, making sure they collaborate,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: they work well together, they're willing to call it when
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: it's not working, So creating that culture, all of that
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: is part of leadership. How do you.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Think about when it comes to execution, the balance between
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: taking that risk saying okay, let's try this, versus deciding
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: maybe this is something we need a little bit more
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: time to think about and analyze. How do you make
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: a decision like that? Where and in many ways the
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: world is moving so fast.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: You always have to have a screen of saying, here
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: are the things that I know are working, and therefore
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: we can pour fuel on and scale and go global
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: with and let's figure out how to do it as
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: quickly as possible. Here are things that we trying and experimenting,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: and they seem to be some green shoots, some promising results,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: but we still have a little more iteration and testing
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: to do. And here are some places where it's a bet,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: let's see if this works. Don't know if it will work,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: but it's worth a shot. You've got to be able
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: to categorize things into different buckets, and then you have
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: to be willing to sort of be fluid as things
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: move back and forth between the buckets. Right. And related
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: to that is also you know what are customer is
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: looking for? Is what we're doing consistent with what they're
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: looking for. Where is the world of technology and AI
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: and data. You know, we have something called the MasterCard Way.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: It's very collaborative, it's very collegial, it is very innovative
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: and dynamic. And so the three big pillars we think
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: about within the Mastercardway. One is creating value, to make
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: sure so you can actually create value for your customers
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: at scale. This second dimension is sort of growing together,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: this notion that none of us are alone. We're doing
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: things with each other together. It's got to work together
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: and then moving fast. And that comes back to the
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: pivoting and iterating I was talking about, which is when
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: you see something tried quickly or if it's working scale
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: it quickly with your eyes open because you might have
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: to tweak something as you go. It's almost like a
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: soccer team or any sports. You understand the objective of
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: the game. Everyone is a part to play, but you
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: have to work as a team. You don't win unless
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: you work as a team. These are all the things
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: that shape how we work together at this firm.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I believe right now we are living through such an
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: interesting time, right There's so much technology, there's so much advancement,
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: but at the same time, there's a lot of uncertainty
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: of like what this actually is going to look like?
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: As a leader, how do you lead a team through?
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Perhaps what is a lot of uncertainty happening in the
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: world right now?
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So the uncertainy the world at this present moment
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: comes in two forms. One is geopolitical or macroeconomic uncertainty.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: I always think about the world in terms of what
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: does one control and what does one not control. So
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: that's a category of uncertainty that you don't necessarily control,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: but you need to be able to understand and you
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: need to be able to assess react. That's the kind
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: of uncertainty that requires one type of agility. Then there's
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: the other kind of uncertainty that we live in, which
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: is technological uncertainty. Emerging technologies, new ways of looking at data, AI, automation,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: so there, I think the world is more in the
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: category of what you control, and so there I believe
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: one should embrace it, try it. Not everything is fit
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: for purpose for every situation, but you need to understand
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: what's out there and then use it and bring it
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: into your world so that it helps you. I mean,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: there's so many people who are afraid of it or
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: afraid it's going to do something to their jobs. Embrace
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: it because at the end of the day, I really
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: do believe it's going to help you individually. And then
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: you know, also incorporate it into your products. So we
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: launch the Virtual c Suite for small Businesses that brings
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: essentially executive skills in finance and marketing to a small
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: business that typically won't have access to that the way
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: a corporate does. So incorporate it into your products, and
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: as you do it, also learn about what responsible principles
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: are in how you think about data. This is the
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: space where I think all of us should be embracing
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: it in our own way and thinking about what we
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: could do better with it.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: And it goes back to what you said, this agility,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: this mindset of like you know, being flexible, being adaptable.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And in both cases, you need to be
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: flexible and adaptable, just in different ways.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: I know a huge part of your role is also
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: talking to customers. I'm curious when you walk into these
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: business meetings and it might be a new stakeholder, a
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: new regulator, a new potential investor, how do you approach
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: conversations in the sense of I need to build trust
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: with them.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: Trust is something that you build with time. Right, This
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: is famous quote you win trust in drops and you
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: lose it by the buckets or.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: Something like that.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: But trust is something that you build over time with
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: a consistency of interaction, with a reputation, with the transparency
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: and clarity, with the reputation of collaborating, a reputation of
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: respecting points of view, whether you agree or disagree. When
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: you go out and talk to external constituents and even
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: within the firm and you're trying to understand their perspectives
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: and where they're coming from and what their needs are.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: I think these dimensions are important. All of these things
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: go towards building trust.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: I read somewhere that you are still very involved in hiring,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: hiring and MasterCard. Can you tell me a little bit
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: about that.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm still involved in hiring. I love meeting candidates
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: and reviewing profiles and talking to them. I wish I
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: had more time to do it. There's some roles for
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: which when I do the interviewing, I'm actually doing the
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: assessment of the technical skills. There are other roles where
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: I may not be the best person to assess the
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: technical skills. That's not my purpose. I'm trying to assess cultural.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to assess what they bring to the table
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: personality wise, style wise. Will they be a constructive addition
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: to the team. We have a very special culture. Will
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: they embrace the culture? Will they change the culture in
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: the right way for the right reasons after embracing it.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Because you're only as good as your talent on your
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: team and the culture of the team.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I actually read somewhere that you set the word decency
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: like being just a decent human being.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: What does that mean? That's something we use at MasterCard.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Decency is something we talk about a lot here. It's
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: about doing the right thing and you do it respectfully
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: when it comes to people. And so there's a decency
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: quotient which I think our former CEO, Ajabanga, he's the
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: one who initially came up with decency coach is this concept.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: It's this notion that yes, we have IQs and we
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: have emotional awareness, but there's also this notion of having
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: the right moral compass, the right values, whether it's something
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: difficult that you're doing or e that you're doing with people,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: that you're doing it in the right way, with the
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: right level of care and the right level of respect
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: for the person. And so that's the core of decency.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: So as we start to wrap up here, one of
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: the last questions that I want to ask you is
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: the name of the show is called Leading by Example.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: What does leading by Example mean to you?
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: It's a great name, by the way, I love the
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: name of the show, leading by Example. I think each
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: one of us, not just you and me, but everyone
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: you always want to be the best leader that you
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: can be. You've got to make sure that you're thinking
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: about that actively. You're watching yourself. You're thinking about am
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: I doing the right thing in the situation, being bold
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: about doing it, but with your eyes wide open and
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: with always a mirror facing you, so that you know
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: what kind of example you're setting as you lead. And
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: I think that consciousness, that awareness is important for every
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: single one of us. So to me, that's what it
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: means to lead and lead fearlessly, but always remember that
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: you are an examp and so keep that mirror on
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: yourself to make sure you do it to the right
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: level of humility and the right level of respect and
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: the right level of care.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: And I think about how that really is the core
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: of it all, really right, and I love how that
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: is also a core value within the organization. Absolutely well, Rash,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much, Jessica.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: This has been a really interesting conversation and I love
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: the title of your podcast. That was such a refreshing
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: conversation with Fraj. I just kept thinking about how she
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: really embodies what it means to be a very clear leader,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: not only that she had a lot of self awareness
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: of what matters to her and also the value she
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: brings to her team today. In particular, there were these
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: three points that stood out to me. The first one
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: was when she started talking about the art of the pivot,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: meaning for her, she was studying to get her PhD
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: in physics, only to find that this wasn't actually what
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: she wanted to do. In her words, she says she
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: was learning more and more about less and less, so
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: she decided to pivot. And what I found particularly refreshing
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: about her pivots was she never approached it as I'm
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: doing something wrong, I can't stick to one thing, or
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: that there's something wrong with me. She was just being
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: incredibly honest with herself and recognized that what I'm currently
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: doing isn't really the whole of who I am. Better Yet,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: in each pivot that she made, she didn't just abandon
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: the work and what she learned. She took the thinking
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: with her. For example, the scientific methods she learned in science,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: like the hypothesis, the reiteration, she used that in her
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: next role. The second point was talking about connection. So
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Raj had this ability to bring the same scientific rigor
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: from what she learned in physics to how she approached
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: problems in the corporate work place. For example, if you
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: right now are feeling like, gosh, there's not much progress
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: on a particular project your team is working on. Instead
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: of feeling frustrated with this lack of output, maybe treating
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: it with a hypothesis of hmm, maybe my team actually
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: needs more clarity on the goal. Let's test that out.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: The point is trying something, iterating, adjusting in real time.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Some of the best leaders are not the one with
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: all the answers, They're the ones who ask the better questions.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: And then the third point, this was when we started
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: talking about building trust with your team, and it was
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: when she said something along the lines of you win
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: trust in drops, but you can lose it by the buckets.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: And I thought that this was such a clear way
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: to illustrate how trust is built. It's not about likability,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: it's not about being charismatic. It's about being consistent with
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: what you do, what you say, and being transparent in
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: the process as well. So I want to thank you
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: so much for joining us. This was such a great conversation.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: I'm so happy that you are a part of it now.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, or you have feedback on
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: what you want to hear and guess you'd like to
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: hear from, please rate and review leading by example, every review,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: every rating really does help us reach more people and
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: make this show the best it can be. I'm Jessica Chen,
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: the author of Smart Not Loud, How to Get Noticed
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: at Work for All the Right Reasons, and the CEO
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: of Soulcast Media. A communications training company. For more information
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: about me and what I do, head over to Solcastmedia
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: dot com or add me on LinkedIn and Instagram. A
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: huge thank you to our production team at Ruby Studio,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: especially Kelly Kyle, Matt Stillo, and Sierra Spring. We'll be
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: back in two weeks with another episode of Leading by Example.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: I'll see you then, yeah,