Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Jack Coyer & Steven B about their choice of The Time Monster (6/6)

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Talks to Jack Coyer & Steven B about their choice of The Time Monster (6/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:37
  Quicker Welcome back to a Hamster with a Blunt Pen Knife,
• 0:41
  one of many Doctor Who commentary podcasts.
• 0:44
  Feel free to check out another one if you don't want to hear
• 0:48
  people talk about the Time Monster episode 52.
• 0:56
  But we're here talking about episode 6 AKA part 3B AKA Part 1
• 1:04
  of the actual story. But I'm I'm joined by Joe as I'm
• 1:10
  frequently joined by. You are the jackiest Jack I've
• 1:15
  ever seen. And I am complimented by Stephen
• 1:20
  B for me to. Hello, Stephen.
• 1:22
  I'm always complimenting you, Jack.
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  You do a great job. Thank you.
• 1:25
  Well, so, so Houston, obviously new too, your lovely podcast
• 1:31
  where you talk about Doctor Who's stories that people should
• 1:35
  actually spend their time watching.
• 1:39
  What if you were someone who is new for classic Doctor Who and
• 1:43
  they said to you, Stephen, there's only one dusty DVD at
• 1:50
  the back of our libraries clearance bin and it's called
• 1:54
  The Time Monster. Should I check it out?
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  What would you be telling them about it?
• 2:02
  Look, I, I, I would have to recommend it and only because,
• 2:06
  well, we've had a lot of fun over the last 10 hours we've
• 2:11
  been doing this. It's felt longer No, we've had a
• 2:16
  lot of fun talking about it and I think we've also seen the
• 2:19
  merit of it as well. Like there's a great deal of fun
• 2:22
  the unit family's there and beyond that, we sort of have had
• 2:27
  a really character LED Part 5, which will take us now into the
• 2:30
  the climax and deny Mont of the story as well.
• 2:33
  I think beyond that, we've all come to Doctor Who as fans and
• 2:39
  it could have been the crappest of crap episodes, but we're
• 2:41
  still here. So I think it either captures
• 2:45
  your imagination or it doesn't. So I yeah, the Thai Monster
• 2:49
  would be something that if you, it was the only DVD that you had
• 2:52
  in the, you know, back of the the cupboard, you might as well
• 2:56
  start watching it because you might like it.
• 3:00
  And I have one more question before we can, and I can aim
• 3:04
  that to even one of the others. Joe, I've not aimed the question
• 3:07
  at you yet. I'm guessing you've read the
• 3:11
  sort of in novelization of this. No, I haven't.
• 3:16
  Oh, you haven't? OK.
• 3:17
  Oh, so to Stephen. Stephen, I'm guessing.
• 3:20
  Nay. Praying that you've got the
• 3:23
  talking opposition guarantee it. I have but it was a long time
• 3:27
  ago and I haven't since, but I did you enjoy?
• 3:30
  It how we've obviously spoken quite a bit about and joked
• 3:34
  quite a bit about the spread of the story across the six
• 3:38
  episodes and obviously the nature of 1970s, you know,
• 3:43
  serialized 25 minute serial television versus a a full
• 3:49
  novelisation that doesn't have those sort of restrictions.
• 3:53
  To the best of your memory, what do you feel about the the rhythm
• 4:00
  of the story and the target novelisation in particular?
• 4:04
  Obviously the stuff on Atlantis, which we haven't had that much
• 4:08
  exposure to so far. Yeah, I mean, from memory I I
• 4:12
  there wasn't that sort of jarring strange structure to it
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  and did flow well. I wonder if I go back to the
• 4:19
  target novelisation where the I'd find that the last two parts
• 4:23
  probably have a bit more real estate in the 120 something
• 4:25
  pages of Charan Stick's novelisation and are allowed to
• 4:29
  breathe a bit more. And whether the first 3 to 4
• 4:33
  episodes are sort of condensed or at least streamlined so that
• 4:36
  they aren't necessarily as apparent in terms of jogging on
• 4:41
  the spot. I I did enjoy though, the hang
• 4:45
  time as he called it, Joe, whereas Nathan calls it with the
• 4:48
  characters. That was very much a feature of
• 4:51
  the novelisation that, excuse me, even even at the time I sort
• 4:55
  of really enjoyed. But yeah, the I don't remember
• 5:00
  having to wait as long as I feel like we've had to wait for the
• 5:04
  Atlantis fits at the end of the book.
• 5:09
  Yeah, I think it's it is, you know, you, you bear it
• 5:15
  forgiveness for for the fact there has to be structured in
• 5:19
  this way. But you do kind of question
• 5:22
  whether because I think there is enough there.
• 5:24
  You know, my worry when I watch this, I'm trying to remember my
• 5:28
  first memories of watching this. And my worry was that if we were
• 5:32
  holding off the Atlantis bits till the end, but it just was by
• 5:37
  default going to be quite boring.
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  And I thought maybe they were just worried that no one would
• 5:42
  be interested in those bits. But actually, as we've spoken,
• 5:45
  you know, Ingrid Pitt and and Joaquin Dalios are quite
• 5:49
  interesting characters. And he sort of would have quite
• 5:52
  liked in hindsight to to get them, you know, injected into
• 5:57
  the story much quicker. Now, Joe, before we begin, I do
• 6:03
  have one question for you. And I'm pretty confident that
• 6:07
  even you can answer this question, you bitch.
• 6:12
  Would you like to canvassing? Well, I would, but I may I just
• 6:16
  add something to your question to Stephen that I thought I
• 6:18
  couldn't answer, but I actually can chip in and I say that
• 6:22
  Terrace Sticks is not above. He he generally sticks to what's
• 6:27
  on the screen, but he's not above like I don't know the end
• 6:30
  of the Android invasion that I always talk about.
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  And he's not happy how Robert Holmes has left all of those
• 6:36
  dangling plot Freds. So right.
• 6:38
  So a paragraph at the end of that book saying, well, units
• 6:41
  gathered up all the androids and the Android invasion was over.
• 6:45
  But also he's not happy in horns of Nimon that we really don't
• 6:49
  get much back story about the Scotland empire.
• 6:51
  So he has his entire this entire sequence at the beginning there,
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  which catalogues the rise and fall of the Scotland Empire and
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  makes the whole thing for. I'd be fascinated to read this
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  to see if he's finally rubbing his hands together going well,
• 7:06
  he ain't my producer anymore. I can tidy this fucking thing up
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  for the page. I'd like if it a read actually.
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  Because obviously as we've spoken about, this is obviously
• 7:17
  a Barry let's uncredited sort of Co life in job.
• 7:21
  So do you think we've almost in effect double the amount of
• 7:25
  Barry let's involvement it? Do you think that Terence
• 7:29
  possibly takes even more of a step back on on some of Barry
• 7:34
  he. Absolutely says that he did.
• 7:36
  In fact, when it comes to Planet of the Spiders, because he's
• 7:38
  riding robot and they're doing Moon Base three as well.
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  He pretty much said I'd just left Barry to get on with it and
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  maybe we wouldn't have had those tedious free episodes in the
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  middle if he had been paying attention a bit more.
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  But it's like, it's like the showrunners now and I all think
• 7:54
  they do good jobs in their own way, but I don't think any of
• 7:59
  them have people that say, do you know what?
• 8:02
  That's too far. Drain it back a bit.
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  So and you go power mad. I can do anything.
• 8:07
  You know, I'll drag them all out of their graves if I have to.
• 8:11
  Oh well, I won't go into too many examples, but I think maybe
• 8:14
  there's a bit of that happening here as well.
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  The Barry Let's's vision for the show, which is a very
• 8:21
  respectable vision, but if he's producing and script writing and
• 8:26
  in Planet of the Spiders directing as well maybe.
• 8:31
  Yeah, is it? There is a time to do what isn't
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  the time to do all those jobs to the best of his ability, you
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  know? Then someone should have said,
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  who knows? I'll read the book and I'll get
• 8:41
  back to him. Yeah, I always find it
• 8:44
  interesting that, you know, you go through the credits of the
• 8:47
  new Who episode and there's technically a person in the
• 8:50
  credits with the title script editor, but you sort of look at
• 8:54
  yourself and go, is Russell T Davies is script editor really
• 8:59
  doing this the exact same job but, you know, and Andrew Carmel
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  or Robert Holmes or Douglas Adams would have done?
• 9:07
  Not really. Oh no, be quiet.
• 9:10
  It's marvellous. It's staying in.
• 9:12
  Oh yes, Muscatine Davis is absolutely A-Team player, and
• 9:16
  this podcast would never, would never, ever suggest that he's
• 9:21
  pulling more weight than he should be done well.
• 9:24
  Before the lawyers come knocking, I'll count us into
• 9:27
  Episode 2 in 54321. Now look, I'm going to jump in
• 9:35
  immediately with something, you know, a bit fun because Fraser
• 9:39
  Gregory has got one of his typically ridiculous snog marry
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  trap. Between the now and the now,
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  these are your options. Ready.
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  The Minotaur, Darth Vader and the green Cross code man.
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  I believe that's David Prowse in all three roles.
• 10:01
  Well, Jack. Well, I suppose I'd probably, I
• 10:07
  mean, I'd smoke with mine at all because if it's anything like
• 10:12
  his role in this story, it'll be over very quickly.
• 10:18
  I'd marry Dolph Weber because, you know, it's sort of ultimate
• 10:24
  galactic power and he eventually dies sooner.
• 10:30
  And I was avoid the queen cause code man, because I follow my
• 10:34
  own path and I do what I want. I don't mean to be able to vote.
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  Stephen, I, I, I you've got to follow that.
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  Go on. It'd be difficult avoid the
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  minor tour. Avoid the Green cross, man.
• 10:52
  Avoid Darth Vader. Well, I'm going to snog the mind
• 10:57
  at all because I mean, look at his muscles.
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  Hello. I'm going to avoid Darth Vader
• 11:03
  because yeah, I think he probably crushed my throat in
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  about two seconds of that isn't. That what you're in.
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  That was our secret, and I'm going to that's only when we're
• 11:16
  alone. And what am I doing?
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  I'm trapping between the now and the now the Green Cross code man
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  because I prefer John Pertwee's splink.
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  Very good, very good, Great question.
• 11:31
  It's a shame when missing all this dynamic film footage to
• 11:35
  talk about our fantasies of David Brass, but.
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  Do you want to So do you know the behind the scenes story
• 11:42
  about the Minersaur? So Barry is like, OK, yes, we
• 11:46
  need you to make the monitor. Thank you very much.
• 11:48
  And then somebody from the special effects workshop goes up
• 11:52
  to him and goes, I think you need to go down for the workshop
• 11:55
  and see what they've created for you.
• 11:57
  And he's like, well, it'd be fine.
• 11:59
  And he goes, no, no, I think they've made Daisy the cow.
• 12:03
  And he went, oh, God. So he ran to the workshop and
• 12:06
  said, what are you doing? It looks like a cow.
• 12:08
  And he goes, well, is a ball much different from a cow?
• 12:11
  And they literally, literally said, you've got another day.
• 12:15
  Make it a ball. So it was going to be like it
• 12:20
  was going to be an actual cow. We can't hear the music, but if
• 12:25
  we could, we'd hear Dudley Simpson doing his own that the
• 12:28
  Simpson version of a flamenco. Like an awful synthesiser, like
• 12:34
  a bullfighter crushed in a in a. Do you know immediately though?
• 12:42
  Watch how this goes from film to video and how the sets look
• 12:45
  different. And the two, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:48
  It's even more prominent because we haven't actively changed
• 12:51
  location. But normally we at least run in
• 12:54
  from one room to another. Here it's They turn around and
• 12:58
  all of a sudden the world looks grainy in the mouth.
• 13:02
  That dialogue, they just gave jokes.
• 13:04
  She goes, oh, it's beautiful in the same way it's horrible.
• 13:08
  It gives me a funny feeling, like, how do you play those
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  lines with a lot of chats? Bar if you're Katie Manning.
• 13:16
  Yeah, I I like the the Atlantean for being nice enough to give
• 13:21
  Joe a dress with a zip in the back.
• 13:24
  That's very modern of them. I like it when I do.
• 13:28
  You see the master there. Just go.
• 13:29
  Well, I am the king. Tell him I love it when he's got
• 13:32
  the upper hand. I don't know why.
• 13:34
  It's delightful. It's because we know that the
• 13:36
  rug will get pulled out from under, and so we're happy for
• 13:39
  him to have. He's a panto villain, so you
• 13:42
  know, we're happy for him to have this moment.
• 13:46
  And he truly is a panto villain at the end of this story, but
• 13:48
  he's grovelling on the floor in front of Kronos.
• 13:57
  Well, I've got another question here from Always Fraser again.
• 14:01
  OK, so he asked, and I know we're not at the scene yet, but
• 14:04
  you know, we'll probably be talking when it comes.
• 14:06
  Is the Daisies Daisy Pertwee's charmiest moment of charm?
• 14:13
  Oh, that's a really good question.
• 14:19
  I think it's definitely up there.
• 14:21
  I mean, it's a bit trite in terms of the dialogue, but what
• 14:24
  it does do, I think is have a nice little pause without it
• 14:30
  sort of feeling like padding. And it's it's giving me
• 14:32
  character piece, I guess. I also love the resonance of the
• 14:35
  fact that the hermit who tells the doctor about the, you know,
• 14:39
  to look at the daisiest Daisy and sort of see life in a new
• 14:43
  light is actually, well, it's it's King Dalios.
• 14:47
  It's the the same actor, isn't it, George McCormack, who comes
• 14:50
  back and planted the spiders to play Campo.
• 14:52
  So there's a nice bit of serendipity there, perhaps.
• 14:57
  And well, it's on the screen at the moment.
• 14:58
  Here's the the the conversation between the two of them.
• 15:01
  But no, I think, I think it's one of those moments of charm
• 15:05
  for Pertwee, but it's also a, a beautiful illustration, I guess,
• 15:08
  of the doctor's character as well.
• 15:10
  And there's clearly, you know, Buddhist overtones and concerns
• 15:15
  and, and parallels to the story as well, which is called
• 15:18
  Barrylitz's fingerprints all over it.
• 15:20
  So is it his most charming moment?
• 15:24
  I'm not sure. I'll have to have a think about
• 15:26
  that. But I, I actually think it
• 15:28
  works. And it is.
• 15:29
  It does come across as very charming, yeah.
• 15:31
  I think he probably gets his most, his most charming ever
• 15:36
  moments in the two Robert Homer scripts to come in Carnival of
• 15:40
  Monsters and in the Time Warrior of that being in the Time
• 15:43
  Warrior where he's telling Sarah, you know, more people are
• 15:46
  like galactic ticket inspectors and all that.
• 15:48
  I mean, he's just so, so chill by that point.
• 15:52
  But it's doing a very unusual thing about the doctor actually
• 15:55
  talking about his childhood technically, which we never do,
• 15:59
  right? Yeah, I think we're we're kind
• 16:03
  of obsessed with, you know, the chronology of the Doctor's life
• 16:08
  and, you know, the whole him being a little boy in the bed in
• 16:12
  this and then all these sorts of, you know, what happened in
• 16:16
  between, you know, Paul McCann and John her and, you know, all
• 16:19
  these sorts of things. But I just don't.
• 16:22
  The Barn Trilogy, Are you Jack? Yes, the, the, I mean, he's
• 16:27
  probably talking about that. He probably lived in the barn
• 16:29
  when the story took place. But yeah, I think it's maybe, I
• 16:33
  don't know about his most charming.
• 16:35
  I'd say it's probably his most humble because the 3rd Doctor is
• 16:39
  a bit of a sort of braggadocious, you know,
• 16:41
  bastard, and he needs to be taken down a little peg or two
• 16:45
  sometimes. Why are you looking at me when
• 16:47
  you say that? Because I have to.
• 16:50
  It's a Zoom call. I have to look at him and I
• 16:53
  can't look at Stephen because he's not a braggadocious person.
• 17:01
  But I, the thing I like about this team is we've, we've been
• 17:06
  talking about obviously the kernel themes in poetry stories
• 17:09
  and particularly in the tsunamis because they are coming to the
• 17:12
  end of the year. And I think one of my favourites
• 17:15
  that's in all five of them is the making very clear the
• 17:20
  difference between the doctor and the other people at, at
• 17:25
  UNIT. So in Inferno, that's obviously
• 17:28
  made very clear in the fact that he's the only one who doesn't
• 17:32
  have a parallel copying. Yeah.
• 17:36
  So it's very structured as him against, you know, the enemy
• 17:40
  almost the, you know, which is what you may have kind of been
• 17:43
  throughout achieving in episode 3.
• 17:46
  He's obviously the one who's not really interested in all the,
• 17:50
  you know, black magic Holcomb, you know, not in the same way.
• 17:53
  But like Benjamin and Joe Roy in particular in in this story is
• 17:59
  obviously there's a lot more close juxtaposition of him with
• 18:04
  the master. There's been a lot of cutting in
• 18:08
  from 1 scene and out of the other scene, but will go
• 18:11
  directly from Pertwee to Delgado from one shot to the other.
• 18:16
  Obviously the green death will get him realising that Joe is
• 18:20
  obviously a lot more concerned with the with what's going on on
• 18:24
  planet Earth, whereas the Doctor is, you know, views planet Earth
• 18:28
  as just a small cog in the, you know, wider aspect for the
• 18:33
  universe and obviously implanted this virus.
• 18:36
  We get, you know, the the idea, but the doctor isn't really
• 18:40
  fitting in this UNIT story because it's arguably, you know,
• 18:44
  the template UNIT story. You know, if if UNIT turned up
• 18:48
  to 200% and we are getting that reinforced idea, but the doctor
• 18:54
  doesn't really belong in this sort of story structure anymore.
• 18:59
  So yeah, I think it's it's a good moment for his character,
• 19:03
  but it's also forms part of what Barry and Terence's ethos is for
• 19:09
  their version of the show, which is the Doctor can seem at his
• 19:14
  most doctorish when we're juxtaposing against, you know,
• 19:18
  humans, whether it be humans from the past or humans from the
• 19:21
  person. Brilliant and it's also a nice
• 19:27
  little coincidence that obviously Kim Baleos plays the
• 19:30
  hermit implement spiders, which is, I'm sure completely
• 19:35
  coincidental. I, I, I doubt that was
• 19:38
  deliberate choice, but it's a nice little sort of connection
• 19:43
  between the two. It's a shame you can't die.
• 19:48
  They convince him that but. We do get that wonderful
• 19:53
  overreaction from Queen Galileo when she realises and she goes
• 19:57
  to strike the master. But, you know, that's basically
• 20:00
  how I live my life. So Fraser, one last question
• 20:03
  from him. I think we have sort of covered
• 20:06
  this, but I'll see if there's anything else we can drag out of
• 20:08
  it. Plus, the story moved to
• 20:10
  Atlantis too soon, too late or just at the right time?
• 20:14
  No, it's too late. Yeah, I think.
• 20:18
  Yeah, ultimately it's too late. But I would say that what is
• 20:22
  here, you know, the the accidental repercussions of
• 20:26
  that, is that what is here is quite nicely paced and it's
• 20:30
  pretty succinct for what it is to the point that we wish there
• 20:35
  was more of it. How many times in this story
• 20:39
  have we been saying, I wish there was less of this bit over
• 20:42
  here? And now we're saying, I wish
• 20:44
  there was more of this bit, which is, you know, something to
• 20:48
  be commended. Maybe this could have been a
• 20:52
  much tighter 4 passer with the 1st 4 episodes just truncated
• 20:58
  down to 2 and then the second-half.
• 21:00
  So we're still following the two and two structure, but we're
• 21:03
  getting to the point a lot quicker.
• 21:04
  I, I think, I think that's absolutely clear for this one,
• 21:07
  but also for pretty much every per we 6 parter.
• 21:10
  It's, I think it's a truism to say that you know, it's most 6
• 21:13
  parters, the per we era 2 episodes too long.
• 21:17
  It's not that they're two episodes too long, It's that
• 21:19
  there's two episodes worth of material too long, 2 episodes
• 21:25
  worth of material that you can make concise, that you can
• 21:28
  sharpen, that you can compact, that you can redesign, I guess.
• 21:32
  And the Thai monster is a four part of would be, you know,
• 21:35
  quite a hell of a ride. The first two parts with the
• 21:38
  master, you know, discovering the secret of Kronos and then
• 21:42
  using that to transport back to to Atlantis is, is probably the
• 21:46
  right way to have done this. But we know the that's not how
• 21:49
  Doctor Who worked. It is a bit of a shame that for
• 21:52
  26 weeks of television we only got 5 stories.
• 21:55
  Like, I always thought we probably should be aiming for
• 21:57
  six or seven there and having more four parties and also just
• 22:00
  more stories, you know, more different adventures to to go
• 22:05
  on. But yeah.
• 22:07
  Line isn't it whereas. Yeah.
• 22:09
  We were always aiming for more first nights, more. 1st.
• 22:12
  Episodes because that's where the interest peaks, basically.
• 22:16
  Quite. Right.
• 22:16
  Yeah, and I think much in the same way as in the story the
• 22:21
  Doctor and the Masters, Tardises had time rammed into each other.
• 22:26
  This story is 2 separate four parties that have time rammed
• 22:32
  into each other to to sort of create a disjointed sex party.
• 22:36
  You've got some nice little stuff with the Master doing time
• 22:39
  experiments and isn't it funny that he's got his own little
• 22:43
  version of Bohemecdan? And then you've got the Atlantis
• 22:47
  stuff and they, they have, you know, time ran into each other
• 22:51
  and you kind of wish that you'd, you know, pick it apart and, and
• 22:55
  moose up through it a little bit.
• 22:57
  There's just so much going on the screen at the moment.
• 23:00
  The Doctor's tied up in the middle, Atlantis is falling, the
• 23:03
  Masters going for the crystal, Joe's going for the Master.
• 23:07
  Everyone's running around. It's all in long shot.
• 23:10
  It's one of those moments where you're like, oh God, this is
• 23:13
  just terrible Doctor Who at this point.
• 23:17
  This is what people I think probably think, but not we.
• 23:20
  This is probably what they think is I think.
• 23:23
  Well, and because as well, like what's happened, a bit of debris
• 23:26
  falling down, that's the end of Atlantis.
• 23:29
  Yeah, absolutely. It's sort of, it's really
• 23:31
  strange that, you know, you've got that final scene.
• 23:33
  It's not particularly well framed of Queen Gallia, you
• 23:36
  know, throwing the sword down and her head bowed.
• 23:39
  But the destruction stops. There is no more wreckage or
• 23:42
  carnage or, you know, destruction of Atlantis.
• 23:45
  It's just like, well, the storm's over and she's feeling a
• 23:47
  bit sad for herself. At least in the Underwater
• 23:49
  Menace, we saw Zara, we saw the water rising, you know, she got
• 23:53
  a good idea of what was going on.
• 23:56
  So many destructions of Atlantis's.
• 23:58
  I mean, didn't the demon mention it in the demons as well?
• 24:03
  But as I said in one the earlier episodes, we have to go back to
• 24:07
  the the sense of people narrative, which is we've got to
• 24:10
  get these three back to to just doing more and more carnage.
• 24:15
  And this is arguably a Part 3 of the time monster.
• 24:19
  You could argue that this should have been an entire episode in
• 24:22
  itself. The whole, you know, I'll be
• 24:25
  going to the afterlife and the, you know, Clonos being the woman
• 24:29
  in the in the sky, you know. But as well, the second we'd set
• 24:34
  foot on Atlantis, right, we knew exactly where that was ending.
• 24:38
  Yeah, that's the lost consonant, Absolutely.
• 24:41
  Just a foregone conclusion, which is why that isn't the
• 24:44
  conclusion to the story. This is.
• 24:47
  But I think this is very old as well.
• 24:49
  Like Joe Grant basically goes, I've had enough of your bullshit
• 24:52
  time Ram. And then we're in the most 70s
• 24:57
  scene you've ever seen in your life, with these rainbow colours
• 25:00
  everywhere and this woman with a gold face appearing out of it.
• 25:06
  To go in right enough of this time to die.
• 25:12
  I can't take this screen anymore.
• 25:17
  Yeah, yeah. I wish my dials were a bit
• 25:20
  obvious like that. Just.
• 25:22
  Danger. I would say danger at the end.
• 25:27
  But you know what? At least Joe, like Joe, takes
• 25:29
  action here, you know? Yeah, this is the, this is the
• 25:34
  thing about Joe. She's got great agency in a lot
• 25:37
  of her stories. And, you know, the way that she
• 25:39
  propels the narrative by making those choices is really
• 25:42
  critical. I think she's a great character
• 25:45
  and she continues to mature and develop as a, you know, as a,
• 25:50
  not just a character, but she was in her own right, but you
• 25:52
  know, drives the stories along with it as well.
• 25:55
  Yeah, and she's the first female character who's properly been in
• 26:00
  more than one season since Vicky, and even Vicky's only a
• 26:05
  couple of stories in Season 4, so you can even argue since Bob.
• 26:11
  It's very strange though that they're climaxing both season 8
• 26:15
  and season 9. Both stories end with Joe
• 26:19
  attempting self sacrifice. It's almost like they've run out
• 26:24
  of ideas and we know they haven't because I think the
• 26:26
  Green Death's a great script. Well, they ride her out at the
• 26:29
  end of that, so I don't know, maybe, maybe they could.
• 26:32
  Have been the ultimate self sacrifice could.
• 26:36
  Marrying Cliff. No, I'll take out all the
• 26:39
  muckets she's strapped with bombs.
• 26:40
  You. Know, but I think that's again,
• 26:47
  we we've talked about Terence Dixon, the sort of, you know,
• 26:50
  tied to the to the railway track idea of the companions long
• 26:55
  maybe his idea of a female companion sort of ultimate act
• 27:01
  of devotion because you can't have it be romantic.
• 27:04
  So what's the only other option? Romeo and Juliet, sort of.
• 27:08
  Suicide. Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what
• 27:13
  they're talking about now, but Master goes the path to
• 27:16
  unimaginable glory. What are you talking about?
• 27:22
  But this is very nice this. Well, it's got a lovely glass
• 27:26
  table. I wouldn't mind that for my, you
• 27:29
  know. And actually I've got to say
• 27:30
  that middle of that Tardis console looks a bit like the
• 27:32
  chocolate fondue I've got. Oh, here we go.
• 27:37
  So the ending of this as well. Barry let's was appalled.
• 27:39
  He he gave Bernard more ideas of how to visualise this.
• 27:45
  Yeah, it's a shame that Joe is disappearing into the
• 27:48
  background, probably. That's the effect though, you
• 27:51
  know, it sort of makes you intangible when you're in that
• 27:54
  strange space. Oh yeah, I'm sure it's
• 27:56
  intentional. Terence can cover a line.
• 27:59
  He probably. Why do the companions always
• 28:03
  think he's dead? Yeah, they repeat this beat in
• 28:09
  the three doctors, don't they? Joe goes, well, we must be dead
• 28:12
  when they're different, you know, plus.
• 28:16
  She's even trying to commit suicide or think she's already
• 28:18
  dead. One or the other.
• 28:20
  I mean, maybe that's why her story's called The Green Death.
• 28:23
  Finally, Jovan gets what she's always wanted Death.
• 28:28
  No death. Yeah, married to a hippie.
• 28:34
  But this is quite a technically complex setup, isn't it?
• 28:38
  Because they're using all 5 cameras in the studio?
• 28:44
  Because they're going to have one on per three, one on
• 28:47
  Delgado, one on the Kronos, one on the CSO background, and then
• 28:53
  the sort of claim shot that's hobbling over them.
• 28:57
  So when they end this scene, they're going to have to like go
• 29:00
  for lunch just so they can move all 5 cameras around again and
• 29:05
  do some other scene. I did like his line reading
• 29:09
  there where he goes. You shouldn't have put us into
• 29:11
  time Ram Joe. Anyway, I was just about to do
• 29:14
  it myself. There's a real shift in how warm
• 29:18
  he is towards from the end of series 8 because he spends the
• 29:21
  whole of the demons being Uptown brick to her if I'm honest.
• 29:26
  But I think it's the idea that they now know each other.
• 29:29
  Whereas when she's made, I guess the the arc of that season is,
• 29:35
  you know, we've just seen Liz Shaw be, I'm sure, ammoniously
• 29:39
  booted off screen without the chance to say goodbye, which I
• 29:42
  just think was a a forged decision because it can't make
• 29:48
  for mockery of the council. But with Joe, the idea in season
• 29:52
  8 is will she actually stay this time?
• 29:55
  Can can we get someone who the doctor's actually going to work
• 29:58
  with, you know, or well, I mean, can we get someone who John
• 30:01
  Pertwee wants to work with more to the.
• 30:04
  More to the. Point so she she's passed the
• 30:06
  test now and this is about, you know, them being a proper unit
• 30:12
  if you're pardon the plan. Why do you both feel that change
• 30:16
  happens between the the two characters, at least where the
• 30:20
  Doctor accepts Joe? One, I know the point where he's
• 30:24
  officially absolutely in love with her and the Curse of
• 30:30
  Peloton episode 2, when they're sitting in the quarters together
• 30:35
  after they've done this subterfuge about her and he
• 30:38
  goes, oh, how do you feel like being a Princess?
• 30:41
  Princess. And he leans right into it.
• 30:43
  And I'm like, man, oh man. They are totally.
• 30:45
  They've fallen for each other. Right, right.
• 30:47
  Until that point, you don't see anything quite that warm, that
• 30:50
  tactile, as you do in that moment.
• 30:53
  Yeah, I think they've probably symbolised it for me at the end
• 30:56
  of the Damon's where they dance around the Maple together.
• 30:59
  So I think that's that's probably a nice little again, as
• 31:03
  we've spoken about the end of the season story, having these
• 31:07
  big, you know, symbolic gestures that that really thoughts
• 31:12
  highlight the story, the journey that we've been on.
• 31:16
  Did you have any moments in mind, Steven, where you were?
• 31:19
  No, it was it was a genuinely open question.
• 31:21
  I think it's I think what you say about the end of the series,
• 31:25
  end of the season being sort of that character cathartic moment.
• 31:29
  Is, is is a lovely choice. But Joe, that's that's a great
• 31:33
  call. Episode 2 there of of cursive
• 31:36
  Paladon, where where that that shift, that warmth really sort
• 31:40
  of is it's unbroken after that, isn't it?
• 31:43
  You're right. Well, and anyone that says there
• 31:46
  isn't character development in the classic series to go from,
• 31:50
  you know, it's no good Brigadier.
• 31:51
  I'll have a properly qualified scientist or no one at all to
• 31:56
  the look on his face when he walks in on Joe and Cliff in the
• 31:59
  Green death. I mean that's those two scenes
• 32:03
  are a world apart. Yeah.
• 32:06
  And I mean, look at her. You would, right?
• 32:10
  Fabulous. And yeah, I think, Joe, that
• 32:14
  that point about Peloton, which I think and like you say, is
• 32:17
  such an important story for them because it is her first proper
• 32:22
  journey into space, as it were, Because calling me in space is
• 32:25
  like a a shock because it's such a surprise that this could even
• 32:29
  happen. But because the Peloton is very
• 32:32
  much right, this is your proper initiation, how you're going to
• 32:36
  cope with it. And the fact that she, like you
• 32:39
  say, improvises and snaps right into character is the moment
• 32:45
  where he is most impressed by her or enamoured, as you say.
• 32:50
  And here's Nicholas Cormier game of speed for the episode by
• 32:53
  moving around. Jack Coir, as usual, you've just
• 32:57
  tied together a couple of sign ups is in my brain.
• 33:00
  And when you mentioned Liz Shaw there, well this is Cambridge.
• 33:04
  Couldn't Liz have played the roof Ingram character?
• 33:07
  Oh yes please. Oh yeah, that wouldn't.
• 33:09
  Yeah, wouldn't. That have been great.
• 33:12
  Yeah, I've just been such a shame but and it's so great to
• 33:16
  see her back in the five Doctors if such a bizarre my choice, but
• 33:21
  you'd never expect her to be there but.
• 33:25
  It's just whoever was available in the day wasn't.
• 33:28
  It Yeah, well, you know, it's a oh, and now we're going to get
• 33:35
  the comedy moment, you know we had.
• 33:39
  Tell me exactly what is going on here.
• 33:41
  It's what we call it on on you to who the BBC crap choke to
• 33:46
  finish the the Doctor Who's episode story there.
• 33:49
  And it really is. That's a it's not.
• 33:53
  Even. Yeah, it's just like John
• 33:55
  Levine's woken up from his whatever he was doing during his
• 33:59
  two weeks break, and it's. So rare for Doctor Who to to end
• 34:03
  on forced laughter though, isn't it?
• 34:05
  I can only think of a couple of times.
• 34:09
  I think it's forced just because it's, it's nothing.
• 34:12
  It's not even a bad joke. It's sort of just nothing.
• 34:15
  It's, hey, look at his bloke in his pants.
• 34:17
  Isn't that funny? We usually see him when We
• 34:20
  usually see him when he's not in his pants, but now we're seeing
• 34:23
  him when he's in his pants. To be fair, that's the reaction
• 34:26
  I always get when I'm just in my pants so I'm used to it.
• 34:30
  But like, the only other real example like I'm thinking of is
• 34:33
  the end of Seeds of Doom right? Or are we yet to come?
• 34:37
  Also it doesn't work. No, it's so strange.
• 34:40
  Well, it doesn't work because I didn't go there by the TARDIS in
• 34:42
  the first place. That's true too, yeah.
• 34:47
  Well, boys, we have managed to talk all over six entire
• 34:51
  episodes of the time. And before I can let Jack Koya
• 34:56
  go and enjoy the rest of his day and Stephen go to bed, I'm going
• 35:01
  to ask us all now to have our three fabulous things to
• 35:05
  recommend this incredible story. We'll go one at a time.
• 35:09
  We'll go. Jack, Stephen, me.
• 35:13
  OK, well, I can fuck over the main man himself, the Doctor,
• 35:18
  John Purdsway. I think Jean Pierre was famously
• 35:23
  not a fan of this story, but I don't think he lets it show.
• 35:28
  You know, everyone is sort of in, as Stephen said before sort
• 35:33
  of school last day of the school term mode.
• 35:37
  But he plays it completely dead, you know, straight down the
• 35:41
  middle, as he always does. And I think that the attitude of
• 35:46
  the Doctor, I think really helps share a story for me.
• 35:50
  And I think sometimes watching some other actors during the end
• 35:55
  of their tenure, we weren't main names, but you could probably
• 35:58
  guess which ones. Their attitudes towards
• 36:02
  performing in some of their lesser regarded works was
• 36:07
  perhaps more evident that they weren't really feeling up to it.
• 36:11
  Whereas John Pertwee, who did not care for this story, is
• 36:14
  shelling it just as he would sell the demons or the Green
• 36:18
  Death or anything else. Yeah, that's that's what I'll go
• 36:21
  for. It's probably possibly giving it
• 36:24
  more gravitas than it actually deserves.
• 36:26
  Yes, well, maybe too much. But you know, too much is still
• 36:28
  better than nothing, so. That's true, Stephen.
• 36:33
  I'm going to go with the endless series of scenes of asshole
• 36:36
  where particularly in the first 3 episodes, which I just think
• 36:39
  is so charming and fun. And it's just like the cameras
• 36:42
  were set up on an off day when Unit wasn't really having one of
• 36:46
  its great adventures, but we got to hang out with these guys
• 36:48
  anyway. I love it.
• 36:50
  It's like they're recording the rehearsals.
• 36:53
  Oh yeah, Put it in some money. Then my first thing is going to
• 36:58
  be the diversity of the story and how, I don't know.
• 37:02
  I'm not sure it ever quite reaches epic status, but I
• 37:06
  really like stories that push on somewhere else.
• 37:11
  I love the Kiss Marin, so I love the Chase.
• 37:13
  I love all the Daleks Master plan, the war games where we're
• 37:17
  just going from place to place all the time.
• 37:19
  And if some work better than others, I think they have a good
• 37:25
  stab at the at the contemporary staff.
• 37:28
  I think they fall flat on their face in the TARDIS episode.
• 37:33
  And then they, like you said Stephen, they put everything
• 37:36
  they can. It doesn't quite work, but they
• 37:39
  put everything they could possibly do into the Atlantis
• 37:42
  scene. So yeah, just just how it shows
• 37:45
  the breadth of possibility of Doctor Who.
• 37:49
  Oh, back to me. So I will.
• 37:54
  Well, I suppose I'll have to go since I've gone with the Doctor.
• 37:58
  I suppose I'll have to do with the Master, you know, Monster
• 38:02
  Garden, the man with the gyms, you know, the iconic Master that
• 38:08
  there's really paper way for what is to come for other
• 38:13
  versions of that character. And he absolutely embraces his
• 38:18
  role in this story, which is, look, you know, we've we've had
• 38:24
  what ships out the last eight or nine stories have all been
• 38:28
  master stories before this. So we're trying to think of new
• 38:32
  films for him to do. And he's just sort of settled
• 38:37
  into his role, which is I'm just going to be the guy that that
• 38:41
  ruins the Doctors day and humans day and, you know, comfy
• 38:48
  domestic sort of family dramas, which is what this version of
• 38:54
  Doctor is need a sort of simpler, larger than life
• 39:01
  villain to jazz up the place. And I think he gives it quite a
• 39:06
  lot. And, and actually, I think this
• 39:08
  is quite a varied performance from him.
• 39:10
  I think if you people get into their heads their idea of what
• 39:15
  Del Garber's master is because they watch Anthony Amy's master
• 39:19
  and go on, I guess that's just the Del Garster master one
• 39:23
  autopilot. But you know, I think there's a
• 39:27
  lot more variation in in the character in this story.
• 39:31
  I think he's a lot more, he has moments of having the rug pulled
• 39:35
  out from under him. He has moments when he thinks
• 39:37
  he's in charge and he has moments where he has to, you
• 39:40
  know, beg for his life. So I think, yeah, it's really,
• 39:44
  it's a lot of Delgado variety. We, we've slated him, but Paul
• 39:52
  Bernard's directorial work, particularly in the filmed
• 39:57
  outdoors stuff, I think is particularly great.
• 40:00
  The, that image of the, the, the knight on horseback with the,
• 40:04
  the jousting rod coming straight at unit down that road is
• 40:08
  wonderful. That's probably the best of
• 40:11
  them. But no, all of the outdoor
• 40:13
  scenery here is just lovely to, to, to watch and look at it.
• 40:16
  So that'll be my pick as well. That clock tower location is
• 40:20
  like a gift because he can keep zooming in and out of it.
• 40:23
  This is about time guys, don't forget.
• 40:26
  That, yeah. Yeah, I touched on this briefly
• 40:30
  in the first episode, but I want to talk about girl power, and I
• 40:35
  like the fact that this story has three more strong women
• 40:39
  characters than your average Philip Hinchcliffe season.
• 40:43
  And what you what you have is Ruth Ingram, who is a really fun
• 40:49
  foil of the master, but slips into the unit regulars
• 40:53
  brilliantly. And she's just smart.
• 40:55
  She's a really smart character. She says some pretty lame things
• 40:57
  about sexism, but she's a really smart character.
• 41:00
  You've got Joe with tons of agency throughout the story,
• 41:04
  even when she's sort of not being highlighted.
• 41:06
  And you've got Queen Galaya in the last couple of episodes
• 41:10
  who's a really interesting character and very well played.
• 41:14
  And there's Larkish there as well, who's really fun, the
• 41:16
  companion to Joe. So anybody that says like
• 41:19
  there's no room for strong female characters in 70s who
• 41:25
  take a look at the time Opster, you might be impressed.
• 41:30
  OK, well my final one is a bit general, but it is something
• 41:34
  we've been talking about throughout this commentary and
• 41:37
  it's been well, not just Barry let's and turn steps, but their
• 41:44
  mastery of how to structure a page 1970s season of television.
• 41:53
  This is not only a big season finale, but it's also the
• 41:58
  midpoint of the John Pertwee era.
• 42:00
  This is just sort of middle of the season.
• 42:03
  So we start with the Doctor Who that we all know the character
• 42:07
  and the show 2 years previously in 1970 has been completely
• 42:12
  ripped up. It's not bouncing around in the
• 42:15
  TARDIS to where we can go. It's, you know, the quit and
• 42:20
  that's in the pit or whatever. You know, it is something new,
• 42:24
  something different. Season 7 is sort of the very
• 42:27
  stark contrast to what we've done before.
• 42:30
  Well, this is the doctor's new equilibrium.
• 42:33
  And what do we do? We have to break up that
• 42:35
  graduate. So we get the Master.
• 42:38
  We get a companion who's aimed at a younger audience.
• 42:42
  We get, you know, slightly sillier versions of what's come
• 42:48
  before, which culminates in the demons, which is big, explosive
• 42:52
  black magic, you know, but black magic meets, you know, BBC
• 42:57
  documentary clues, realism. And then we get to this, which
• 43:02
  is, OK, we need to start being a bit more different and we'll get
• 43:07
  out into space. But how do we do that when we
• 43:11
  can't use the tortoise? Well, you know, they're the
• 43:14
  Daleks. We don't use the tortoise to get
• 43:17
  onto the Daleks, you know, ship Curse of Peladon were taken
• 43:22
  there by the Time Lords. Or at least that's what the
• 43:25
  Doctor thinks. She devils.
• 43:27
  Well, we're not going to have a dog this in at all, or a unit in
• 43:30
  it at all. The Newtons?
• 43:32
  Oh, it's probably another mission from the Time Lords
• 43:35
  again. And this where we're sort of
• 43:37
  stretching it to, well, maybe we can travel in space if we use a
• 43:43
  homing beacon to attach to the Master's TARDIS, which will
• 43:48
  transport us throughout the universe.
• 43:50
  So it's we're recognising that the format is being stretched,
• 43:56
  but This Is Us hitting the midpoint of Perth's career and
• 44:01
  we arriving OK, now we are transitioning.
• 44:05
  It might be a bumpy transition and as as we've discussed
• 44:09
  throughout this story, it is a bit of a bumpy ride scripting
• 44:13
  wise and plotting wise. But we are transitioning into,
• 44:18
  as we discussed on Foot and Come Hamster, the season 10 variety
• 44:23
  and the season 11 breaking down the old order, establishing the
• 44:29
  new order. So yeah, the type.
• 44:30
  The greatest strength of the Thai monster is its function
• 44:34
  within the barrierettes and Terrance Dicks.
• 44:38
  Move on. Useful.
• 44:39
  Wonderful. And for my last one, it's Ingrid
• 44:46
  Pitt. Her performance is wonderful and
• 44:50
  perfectly pitched and all her choices, actually choices, are
• 44:53
  spot on. It is such a shame that that
• 44:57
  performance is forgotten largely by what I guess everyone sees on
• 45:03
  screen. And the two, well, I won't even
• 45:07
  say it, but but what what everybody seems to remember this
• 45:10
  performance for. But it's not.
• 45:12
  It's so much more than that. She's so wonderful and so
• 45:15
  nuanced in this and perfect as Queen Glee.
• 45:19
  And my last thing is a point I want to make about just letting
• 45:24
  your hair down and having fun. And the Doctor Who doesn't have
• 45:28
  to be a deep dark serious, you know, it doesn't have to be
• 45:32
  season 7 all the time. It doesn't have to be Hinch
• 45:35
  living homes all the time. It can just be good fun and
• 45:38
  whether that fun is a cock and ball shaped time detector or
• 45:43
  whether that fun is building a time detector out of bits and
• 45:47
  bobs that you're going to find in your kitchen or whether that
• 45:51
  fun is, oh, it's agonisingly terrible.
• 45:55
  Why am I using this as an example making the Doctor talk
• 45:57
  backwards in the TARDIS or just as an accumulation of things?
• 46:02
  I get it might be a bit trying for people, but I think there's
• 46:06
  a place for it. I think there's a place to just
• 46:09
  relax a little bit and have fun. And like some they said earlier
• 46:13
  in the commentary, I think it might have been Stephen.
• 46:16
  No, I think it might have been Jack that just you just want to
• 46:19
  hang and have a laugh with these people.
• 46:21
  They figured out, I think it was in your brilliant analogy, Jack,
• 46:25
  about the two types of story that that you just want to be
• 46:29
  with these people and have some fun with them.
• 46:32
  This story spends too much time doing that, but I think This is
• 46:36
  why Stephen could put this on in the background and just
• 46:40
  luxuriate into it the way he has in the last couple of days is
• 46:44
  because it isn't too taxing on the brain.
• 46:46
  They're wonderful people to be around and they're doing fun
• 46:49
  things, and I just think there's a place for that.
• 46:51
  So it should be celebrated, even if it is a tad fucking indulgent
• 46:55
  in this story overall. Well, boys, we did it.
• 47:03
  Now I as far as I recall, because I did have to ask
• 47:07
  yesterday what we were watching today, I believe we're heading
• 47:11
  towards a story that has a much better reputation than this one
• 47:18
  in the new series featuring my personal favorite, David
• 47:23
  Tennant. I think we're heading to human
• 47:26
  nature and a family of blood. Correct me if I'm wrong.
• 47:29
  Yeah, that's right. We we've discussed a couple of
• 47:32
  stories that we plan to do and obviously we can do them in
• 47:34
  whichever of it, you know, depending on what our schedules
• 47:37
  are and how much time we have. But I really want to discuss
• 47:41
  human nature, the two parter with, you know, such learned men
• 47:46
  as as yourself. But because I thought, you know,
• 47:52
  Doctor Who, it is something that we take for granted from it is
• 48:00
  that it's a show that has hooven up installation from other shows
• 48:05
  and it's effectively a show that's all about adaptation and,
• 48:08
  you know, taking other sorts of materials and shoving it into a
• 48:13
  into a Doctor Who format. And I thought what what we could
• 48:17
  gleam from Doctor Who taking other Doctor Who and shoving it
• 48:22
  into a Doctor Who format and. I want to let you know I'll have
• 48:27
  acquired a copy, a hard copy of Human Nature by Paul Cornell,
• 48:32
  the book, at great expense, so I can read it ahead because I
• 48:38
  really want to see what the big differences are between the two.
• 48:41
  I mean, I think there's a hundred talking points.
• 48:44
  Unlike the new series, these things go by like a lick, so
• 48:47
  we'll probably have a lot of conversation before and after,
• 48:50
  but that's such an exciting choice.
• 48:52
  Amazing whoever whoever thought that one up.
• 48:55
  But to conclude this recording it, I just want to say thank you
• 49:00
  to both of you, One for daring to take on this story because I
• 49:05
  can't be honest with you, no one was banging on my door to do
• 49:08
  this one. Well, I mean if we learn it, men
• 49:10
  such as ourselves. I'm just shaking it enough to
• 49:19
  find so many interesting things to say about it quickly before
• 49:24
  we go. Where can people find you
• 49:26
  online? I don't do this often as I
• 49:28
  should, Stephen. Oh, you can find me on X or
• 49:32
  Twitter or whatever it's called these days at Steve Stylin.
• 49:35
  Or One Word Without the GI can also be found at the new
• 49:39
  podcast. There's a back catalogue there,
• 49:41
  there's a new podcast with Richard Brendan from FTE around
• 49:44
  The Avengers called The Three Handed Game, and I have a blog,
• 49:48
  it's Reimagining doctorwho.com, in which I've taken the task of
• 49:53
  reimagining Doctor Who from 1963 onwards for a classic, for a
• 49:59
  modern rather audience and a global audience as well.
• 50:03
  Will you be eliminating the Thai monster?
• 50:05
  Oh yes, I'm afraid. That's the last three hours
• 50:10
  fucking and you chat. Yeah, I'm on Twitter at at Jack
• 50:17
  Clear 1996 and you can find me there or on obviously a hamster.
• 50:24
  We've done penknife, we've done the Edge of the Start Gym,
• 50:27
  Everyone's Favour Doctor's story.
• 50:30
  We've done The Unquiet Dead and we will at some point if you're
• 50:34
  listening to this in the future, we will have, we have already
• 50:39
  done image to us. Oh.
• 50:40
  That'll be out by then, don't you worry.
• 50:42
  They've already heard that by now.
• 50:44
  So yeah, go listen to that one as well, yeah.
• 50:47
  Guys, it's always a pleasure to be in your company.
• 50:49
  Thank you very much. My pleasure.
• 50:52
  Thank you.