Latest / Identity at the Center / #122 - Public Sector Identity Orchestration with Mike Vesey

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#122 - Public Sector Identity Orchestration with Mike Vesey · Identity at the Center

0:09
You're listening to the identity at the center podcast.
0:12
This is the show that talks about identity and access
0:14
management and making sure you know who has access to what
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let's get started. Welcome to the identity of the
0:26
center podcast, I'm Jeff. And that's Jim.
0:28
Hm. Hey Jeff, how are you?
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Not so bad yourself? Good, go to move my new
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recording studio. What do you think?
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Well, it's definitely a different backdrop for sure.
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I see a nun, long picture in the corner and a plain background,
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which is very much like mine. I have not figured out what to
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do with the wall behind me yet, as I'm moving stuff around in my
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office, but I like the natural lighting.
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Well, I'm actually liking this. You know, what is around 4:30
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here. 4:30 p.m. And the amount of lighting is
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just enough so you can see me but it doesn't highlight every
1:01
flaw in my face, every wrinkle and every line.
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So I'm actually pretty good with 4:00 when I set this up is about
1:08
2:00 and I have a sudden or exposure on my again you know,
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just to level set for everybody were in the u.s. in the northern
1:17
hemisphere obviously, so southernxposure.
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I get the sun beating in through my window and around 2:00, this
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afternoon was like Like it didn't the vibe didn't match
1:27
with my normal vampire mode. You know.
1:29
Normally I like to work in the dark and like somebody opens a
1:32
window. It's like the light you would
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love the Samsung Beauty filter. On the Android phones that they
1:40
have that like does this just over-the-top aggressive
1:43
smoothening of facial like stones and features and things
1:47
like that. That's definitely way to go.
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But that's also why we do an audio podcast because as we have
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always said, we've got face. This radio and voices for a
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silent movie. So that's just how we roll here.
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Yeah, absolutely. And if we ever go video, it's
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like, it's going to be the Snapchat version kind of like
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you're venting about their. Well, people going to see us at
2:08
the, at the authenticate conference.
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So we recorded as a couple weeks early cuz I'll be out, you know,
2:13
doing that. So, hopefully that'll go well
2:16
for us, but it'll be interesting.
2:19
Just getting out in the world again and meeting The Identical.
2:22
We can always tell people it's like a this, the covid-19. 15,
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you know, I mean, we were endorsed the last 18 months,
2:28
eating food, and not exercising. And that number is adjustable,
2:31
right? So if I say oh, this is like the
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covid, 30 or covid, 40, right? I think people would get that.
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I think I think the the joke plays, all right what are we?
2:40
What are you talk? I did it because I think that's
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enough inane banter for today. We're going to get it to a
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pretty interesting conversation. One that I think is going to
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maybe have questions that we don't all have answers for but I
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think it's a good time. To bring these up because of the
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prevalence and that's really around identity in the public
2:58
sector. So things like identity,
3:00
orchestration, identity proofing, those sorts of things
3:03
and really to kind of help explain some of the challenges
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and opportunities we have around that we're welcoming back to the
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show. Mike Vesey is the CEO and
3:11
president a tidy ramp. Welcome back to the show.
3:13
Mike hey thanks glad to be back. Yeah thanks for taking the time.
3:17
So you were with us all the way back in November of 2019, one of
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our very first guests episode number One.
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And now we're in the 100 and teens I want to say like 118
3:30
somewhere in that area. So it's been a while what's new
3:35
with ID ramp because the last time we talked was around kind
3:37
of Bashan identity and we just had a pretty good conversation
3:39
and you know, trying to see you know, what are the use cases
3:42
around it. So so what's new at ID RAM and
3:45
maybe you can also take this opportunity kind of refresh us.
3:47
You know, what is it that I d-- ramp looks to solve?
3:51
Sure. Yeah, happy to it.
3:53
A lot has changed. And yet a lot is the same, so
3:56
happy to be back and talk about, you know, where we're at today
4:01
versus a couple years ago. And some of the things that
4:04
we're seeing especially in public sector because, man, that
4:07
is that. That's a, that's a an area right
4:10
now that is moving at light speed, which is not typical for
4:14
public sector, right? Normally those things are very
4:16
slow and deliberate and we're seeing a lot of transformation.
4:20
All because of driven by necessity, you know, the world
4:23
changed about 18 months ago. So I d-- ramp we're you know,
4:28
still primarily focused on on really the identity
4:32
orchestration Journey. So we're helping organizations
4:37
Enterprise organizations as well as public sector kind of get
4:40
their arms around multiple identity sources as it pertains
4:44
to Service delivery. And those services are really
4:47
all over the board. They can be common, you know,
4:49
services like we all use. Everyday zoom and slack and
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things like that or they can be, you know, highly customized
4:55
Public Service systems developed for the public sector.
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Which is why I think this conversation is so applicable.
5:02
Always been focused their you know, very Dynamic platform
5:05
allowing you to bring in different identity providers and
5:08
and truly orchestrate that process, from what type of an
5:11
identity you bring in, will type of factors, want to deploy and
5:15
ultimately launching them out into into the service that Or of
5:21
their choosing and what's really changed in the last couple of
5:24
years is that the conversation we had, you know, very early on
5:27
about blockchain identity and really, the ability for us to
5:30
generate verifiable credentials. Based on those identity
5:33
attributes and allow individuals to control those and bring those
5:39
into the verification process. That's really we're seeing some
5:42
exciting growth there. And and really it leads into the
5:47
conversation, we're going to have today which is how do we
5:49
better identify Why, and how do we better use personal
5:53
identities as they flow through these very disparate systems.
5:57
So, so we've continued building out our products.
6:01
We to do things like, you know, integration of multiple factors
6:06
into our mobile digital wallet, including, you know, Biometrics
6:11
and things like that. That, of course we're seeing a
6:12
lot of Aventuras tin and and really just tried to to
6:16
complete, make a complete ecosystem.
6:19
That that an Your Enterprise can really use to help them from
6:24
where they are now and help them move into a more decent
6:27
decentralized future. It might give really on the
6:31
front line of a lot of these headline-grabbing type
6:36
initiatives, like mobile, driver's license.
6:38
And to remind everybody, this is something that Jeff.
6:41
And I talked a few weeks ago about mobile driver's license.
6:44
Starting out in the state of Georgia, which is my home state
6:49
vaccine. It's right.
6:51
That's on the tip of everyone's tongue, Jeff talked a little bit
6:54
about the conference that we're speaking at next week and get to
6:58
do some preparation. I would liken that to a vaccine
7:02
vaccine passport, if he Wills digitization of That vaccine
7:07
card that we had at least for me, it was stuffed in my wallet
7:11
and it's a much better way about going about it.
7:15
But, you know, digital diplomas of course digital citizen
7:19
identity. And what I think is like super
7:23
interesting is e-voting or I voting like internet voting
7:28
which, you know, at least globally is as got a couple of
7:32
seed use cases that maybe you can speak to but I guess I'm
7:37
wondering with you being on the Frontline.
7:39
What are you hearing from your public sector contacts and
7:42
customers about adopting? These kind of transformative
7:47
initiatives? Yeah Roy, great question and You
7:51
know, as I mentioned in the intro, it's incredibly timely
7:53
because things are changing so fast and that's just not typical
7:59
e-voting was something, you know, obviously we've talked
8:01
about it for years and, and it's always been, it's always been
8:06
taken with. Yeah, you know, at some point at
8:07
some day and now we have the change happening.
8:11
We have the transformation happening as public sector
8:15
entities, gear up to work and interact virtually with there.
8:20
With their customers, right? Us as Citizens and residents
8:24
were now laying the foundation and building the framework that
8:27
we can build really cool and creative Solutions like e-voting
8:31
on top of because we're going to have to have the identification
8:34
layer figured out. And I'm not saying that we've
8:37
got that figured out today and everything is downhill from
8:40
here. A lot of moving parts and Adam,
8:42
we're continuing to evolve and move the needle, but it's
8:47
happening. There's absolutely no choice for
8:50
our Government to go back to a to a in-person world, right?
8:56
There's just no choice to do that anymore.
8:58
We have to transform those processes and provide some, some
9:02
virtual interaction points. And that's going to allow us to
9:05
really lay the found work, the foundation that we can build a
9:09
lot of other creative and, and forward-moving processes around.
9:14
You mentioned, Health, passports there.
9:16
I mean, they're everywhere, right?
9:17
We hate the word, passports, nobody likes to use health, But
9:21
the reality is, there are things happening that you know u.s. is
9:25
talking about opening borders again, Canada is opening the
9:28
borders again and all of those things whether we like it or
9:31
not, have a dependency of some kind of health, check and, and
9:35
status. And and so those processes are
9:39
being put in place now. And our hope is that more often
9:44
than not, they're in some type of an interoperable format, that
9:49
that can be used. And in and in a more broad
9:54
context than just, this is my solution.
9:56
And that's your solution. So Rodham, interesting things
9:59
we're hearing, you know, two years ago when we did or
10:03
whatever how long will it go, it's but we did the podcast.
10:05
We view to ask me, our primary customer composition, it was all
10:09
larger Enterprise organizations and that is dramatically shifted
10:13
in the last 24 months. We're now we now have a ton of
10:16
interest from government entities, public sector
10:19
organizations want Do really cool Solutions and I say cool
10:23
but to them it's like just staying alive, right?
10:25
They have to deliver their services and they have to do to
10:27
virtually I think it's cool because we're finally pulling
10:30
the consumer into that conversation and and of course
10:34
you know, digital diplomas education.
10:37
We're working on a couple projects there that are
10:39
incredibly exciting to that. We've actually got a state
10:43
that's going to be issuing, digital diplomas, for all of
10:47
their graduating seniors. Next year, in an open format,
10:49
how cool is that? At, you know, we can use that.
10:52
We can use that credential for higher education for Workforce,
10:58
consumption all over the place, and those types of things are
11:01
happening. And it's just a really, really
11:03
exciting time to be an identity. And boy, not many people have
11:07
said that, well, it's certainly challenging for sure.
11:10
I mean, we're talking about scale and scope, right?
11:13
Of a lot of different issues that are out there and you kind
11:16
of talked about this already as the velocity with which, you
11:20
know, Except there tends to move is not that quick generally
11:23
speaking might have been forced into the light here, right?
11:26
With pandemic and things like that.
11:28
But it's also expensive to get a lot of this kind of framework of
11:31
of tools and Technologies and processes and all that stuff,
11:35
kind of put in place. I got imagine that that cost in
11:39
the complexity has really kind of been pretty significant and
11:43
you know with the challenges that we see from budgeting and
11:46
funding and all that sort of stuff, I guess, what are your
11:49
thoughts on? How do you see, you know, people
11:52
who are in the public sector? Who might be listening, might be
11:54
decision-makers, kind of navigating, some of those key
11:57
challenges. Yeah, the key challenges, nobody
12:01
can, nobody can really afford lift and shift.
12:05
And so we can't come in with with a forklift solution, right?
12:11
We focus a lot, and I know a lot of us in the industry, spend, a
12:14
lot of time thinking about those bridges, those digital Bridges.
12:17
We have to provide a way to really Understand where these
12:21
organizations are no, no sector more important than public
12:26
sector because it's it's so diverse and their customer base
12:31
is so diverse, in an Enterprise. We have the luxury of saying
12:36
here is our remote access process, and it will be adopted.
12:40
You don't really have that luxury in public sector.
12:42
You have to build your systems a lot more inclusive and open than
12:46
that. So standards are huge.
12:49
We have to find standards. Based Solutions and we have to
12:52
speak their language. So it's one something that we
12:54
focus on a lot here at ID ramp is really just how do we provide
13:00
the solution that brings value and simplicity and friction
13:06
reduction in the Traditional landscape today and then
13:10
allowing a modular bolt on, you know, a modular integration
13:15
point to to evolve into digital identity and by supporting all
13:20
of those, So we don't look at just one solution and say, this
13:23
is a solution, we need to sell, we try to come in and and and be
13:27
inclusive of what's going on today and then provide options
13:30
and flexibility from moving beyond that.
13:32
The ultimate goal obviously is that when we get to a purely
13:36
decentralized world and everybody's carrying around all
13:39
these credentials and verification ID ramp really,
13:42
shouldn't be needed. Right?
13:43
We, our goal is to put ourselves out of business some day and
13:46
that's going to be a long, long time coming but but that's where
13:49
we need to get to and we just try to provide that open at open
13:52
platform and I think that's the most important thing we can.
13:55
We can keep, we can keep in mind because you're right.
13:57
It's moving faster than it ever has.
14:00
It's costly. And it's very complex to go in
14:03
and replace these core systems. So I think we need to fracture
14:07
that and really think small and modular.
14:10
And you know, that'll that'll hopefully get us.
14:12
Get us where we need to be consumers, are going to come
14:15
along faster than the providers, right?
14:17
I mean, our consumers are incredibly nice.
14:20
Like when you put a challenge in front of us, as, you know, as
14:24
consumers, we find a way through it.
14:26
And with the technology we have at our Disposal today, I think
14:30
that's going to be somewhat easier.
14:32
The bigger challenge is going to be on the infrastructure side.
14:34
Well, I think the infrastructure poses kind of a unique
14:37
challenge, right? Because a lot when you think
14:40
public sector, you think, you know, for writer for wrong, you
14:44
know, archaic kind of old aging crumbling infrastructure whereas
14:49
that might be true for one country.
14:50
Tree, but not another. I think of a country like
14:52
Estonia which does have digital ID, they do digital voting and,
14:57
you know, I think some some folks look to them as sort of is
15:00
that the future, right? Maybe they don't have all the,
15:02
you know, the the, the issues kind of worked out of it yet.
15:05
I'm sure there's certain concerns around it, but I think
15:08
there's a big challenge between starting fresh or how do you
15:13
take, what you currently have and not alienate your existing
15:16
citizens, for example, and pull them along into this new world?
15:20
All right, and I think there's a lot of challenges.
15:23
How do you? How do you basically re-identify
15:26
or reissue? A credential to literally every
15:28
one of your citizens, if you don't have some way to pull them
15:31
along into, whatever this new process, or this new system
15:34
looks like yeah, yeah, it's that's a great point.
15:38
And actually, in some ways we're fortunate that were that we're
15:42
not further along and we don't have a lot of, you know, things
15:48
that we need to go back and re-educate or No, for example,
15:52
if we would build what I think, you know, is our ideal today and
15:57
digital in the digital ecosystem of be very highly decentralized
16:01
using things like we talked about last time which is
16:03
blockchain. You know, writing those
16:04
credentials in public Ledger networks that nobody has to to
16:08
own and maintain but had we built this 10 years ago right?
16:11
We may not have had any choice but to use some of those
16:14
centralized systems. So in some respects, you know, I
16:17
feel like that I feel like We are now is is right where we
16:22
need to be, which, of course, is a natural feeling and the
16:26
technologies that have evolved and come along not to mention
16:30
that the power that we all now carry in our smartphones, gives
16:35
us a really, really unique opportunity to not only do this,
16:39
but do it right, and do it in a way that we can, that we can
16:43
continue to build on and not be staring at this thing.
16:46
And five years going, well, we screwed that up now.
16:49
What, you know, and so I think we have a really interesting
16:52
opportunity and I can't say that we could have done this at any
16:55
time prior to to now. So it maybe you know, maybe this
17:00
is when it's supposed to happen, it might going to take about
17:03
public sector and ikey in general was specific to.
17:08
I am I think of you know, a heterogeneity, a heterogeneous
17:14
type environment so you have a lot of different technologies
17:17
that need to communicate with one another.
17:21
And they, you know, in architectures, that support that
17:26
type of heterogeneity at scale, you need layers of abstraction
17:30
you need orchestration and I know those are kind of industry
17:34
buzzwords but am I on the right track?
17:36
Is that kind of what you see out there and if so, like kind of
17:42
talk us through that tacos, you know about how that
17:46
orchestration piece in the layers of abstraction fit into
17:50
the overall. Picture.
17:51
Yeah. Great Insight.
17:53
I mean that's that's exactly right.
17:55
And I mentioned this earlier standards are are so important
18:00
here being able to follow not only some some new
18:05
forward-facing standards that are that we try to achieve some
18:09
level of interoperability but also existing standards and how
18:11
we enter operate with with those identity.
18:15
Silos that are filling our world right now.
18:17
And, you know, we have to We have to provide that
18:21
interoperability, we have to provide some control for us as
18:25
as residents and citizens to to play some part in that, right?
18:30
We have to be involved in those consent decisions.
18:32
We have to be involved in what information we send that this is
18:38
just so over utilized. But you know it's the I walk in
18:40
to order a drink at a restaurant or something, right?
18:43
It's that identity information that I have to disseminate in
18:47
order to determine my age. What do we do today?
18:50
It's horrible, right? I give them my address, I gave
18:52
them my birthday. I give them all this other
18:55
information because I'm presenting a paper credential.
18:57
So being able to do that digitally, and I need to be in
19:00
the middle of that process. So that that's going to
19:03
transform things because we're not set up that way.
19:05
Right now, all of our, all of our identity, verifications are
19:09
based on Legacy systems that homerun all that information
19:12
back to some Mothership for, you know, for identity verification.
19:17
And we need to break that in order to break that we have.
19:20
Brace all of those identities silos and make sure they can be
19:23
included in this message as well.
19:25
You know, we can't just say, all right, that was yesterday and
19:28
this is today. We don't have the luxury of
19:31
making that break. We have to include those those
19:35
variety of existing Solutions and and really orchestrate them,
19:40
right? At the risk of over utilizing
19:42
that word, but we have to allow them to play in this journey and
19:47
incorporate the ability to do that back.
19:50
Backhaul when needed. But then also some options to
19:53
take that information and say, okay I know we have to go back
19:56
and get it now. But can we just credential eyes
19:58
that is there anything in here that we can just that we can
20:01
just do to take the dependency off of that centralized
20:05
connections, more often than not.
20:07
The answer is going to be. Yes, there is.
20:08
But sometimes, you know, we may just have to go back and do that
20:12
check. And that's just fine.
20:13
We'll live with that. And you will evolve out of that.
20:16
We can't just simply turn it off.
20:17
So, I like that question. It was a It's great and that is
20:21
in my mind, right? That's that's orchestration,
20:25
that's what it means. We've got all this stuff.
20:27
We have to be able to embrace it and Carry It Forward into our
20:30
vision of what, you know, tomorrow needs to be.
20:32
I mean, you mentioned it, you know?
20:33
Oh kind of utilizing that word orchestration.
20:36
I feel like identity orchestration has a lot of Buzz
20:39
Enos around it in different areas, whether it's Cloud
20:42
on-prem. Now we're talking kind of like
20:44
Sovereign identity, right? Things like that, you know, I
20:47
think there's a difference between talking about it, maybe.
20:50
Seeing it trying things out but you know is there anybody doing
20:54
this actually in the real world from a production standpoint
20:58
where there is an e-government project or something like that
21:02
that that you can kind of point to and say you know here's
21:04
here's an example of how in the real world some government
21:09
entity is kind of moving forward on this and kind of leading this
21:13
this identity transformation. Yeah and it's incredibly
21:16
exciting. There there are a couple.
21:17
I mean there are many I'm sure that have been going on.
21:21
For years. But without question the most
21:24
exciting is the announcement that was made just probably a
21:27
couple of months ago now with Ontario.
21:31
So Ontario released a digital identity strategy for all of
21:36
their residents citizens. Did an incredible job not only
21:40
of Designing the technology to be privacy-preserving.
21:43
All of the things that we hit on, you know, before secure
21:47
verifiable sovereign. Control and and voluntary,
21:52
right? So they hit on all those key
21:55
points but what they really did well is is put the education
21:59
together, right? So if you go out and find on
22:01
their website, they have an entire section of the website
22:03
about Ontario, digital service, and digital identity service,
22:07
and how it's going to be used where you plant, where you can
22:09
plan on using it, how you get it, what it means and and that
22:13
is a, it's a great template for for all of us to understand the
22:18
thinking that's gone up going on there.
22:20
And, and I think it is, you know, that I do know, because
22:24
we're kind of involved in the technology.
22:26
I know the technology underlying, this and it's solid.
22:29
It's great stuff. It is privacy-preserving and it
22:32
will work the scenario. I just provided with proving of,
22:37
you know, proving of age. It'll have all of those zero.
22:40
Knowledge proof fundamental technology, Innovations,
22:46
included in this in this deployment.
22:48
So I would suggest we all go. Go and take a look at what
22:51
they're doing up there because they're doing some really cool
22:53
stuff. And, and again, you know, we now
22:56
have to build those bridges for all of their existing merchants
23:00
and businesses to do to be able to contribute and participate
23:05
and try to give them an easier way to do that, you know, to to
23:10
embrace this new digital ID, as as consumers evolve themselves
23:17
or voluntarily sign up to, you know, Part of this digital ID
23:21
ecosystem. So that's a, that's a great one.
23:24
There's a lot of movement, there's a lot of stuff going on
23:26
in Europe. Germany has a great initiative
23:28
over there for digital identity, but without question the best,
23:32
I've seen from a organization perspective, and education is
23:37
what's going on in Ontario and might confer going to be doing
23:40
all these, you know, future facing.
23:42
I'd say Cutting Edge technology, initiatives, mobile, driver's,
23:47
license, internet voting vaccine Passports, it can't be based on
23:53
passwords for a passwords. Are I feel like our our show is
23:58
99% around kill the password password stock.
24:02
Everybody knows that we can't build the future on the
24:05
password. So one I guess you know is that
24:10
when you're talking about all these things, can we just assume
24:14
the password is not going to be there?
24:16
Or is that too, too? Middle of an assumption or is
24:22
that too uneducated to think that we're actually ready to get
24:26
away from that? And then what is really holding
24:29
us back from past for those future in your, in your opinion?
24:33
Yeah, password suck. I've got t-shirts, actually that
24:36
we made up it just has our logo and it says password suck.
24:41
There Is No Escape. I'm going to I'm Really Gonna,
24:44
I'm gonna put myself out there a little bit here but there's no
24:47
excuse. If an application is written
24:49
today that It uses a password then that is on the developer to
24:54
own that there is absolutely no excuse to use passwords today.
25:00
Even if you use a simple verify, my email to factor credential or
25:06
whatever, it's much much better than than requiring registration
25:11
and the creation of a password and every single day I want to
25:16
interact with some service. And guess what?
25:18
The first thing they asked me to do is Create a password so I
25:21
could not be more passionate about it.
25:24
There's absolutely zero reason. Today, the password is exist
25:28
other than our stagnant thinking and and really the the lack of
25:38
forward momentum within the Enterprise as the carrier.
25:42
And I don't want to blame Enterprise.
25:45
I just think they're perfectly suited because they can they can
25:48
demand it and and you know, for the most part Part, everyone's
25:51
moving that direction, right? In various different ways, some,
25:55
you know, better than others. But at the end of the day, if
25:58
we, if we remove them, not mask, mm, not put them in some kind of
26:02
a manager application that fills it in for me, they're still
26:06
exposure there. I want him gone, right?
26:08
I have the ability to hold cryptographic connections
26:11
between myself by, you know, with help of my smartphone or
26:15
whatever and every website. Every person every car,
26:19
everything I interact with. I have the power to do that.
26:23
I'm just not doing it because the applications have been
26:25
retrofitted to to use it yet. But passwords have to go away.
26:30
I mean, I hope we can get to a point where we don't even have
26:34
to have this conversation. Like I said, I it needs to
26:36
become socially, uncool right to create a password.
26:40
And once that happens on the consumers, go, well I would buy
26:43
your products or I would use your site.
26:45
If you didn't ask me to put in a password then I think we can get
26:48
somewhere and I see that day coming.
26:50
Oh, I just wish it were today. Yeah, and I think that probably
26:57
my, I think the bigger issue is exactly where you went, which is
27:00
that there's still these edge cases where it's kind of like,
27:05
oh well, that's where a biometric wouldn't work or
27:09
position based authentication, wouldn't work, but I still think
27:13
there are misconceptions related to, you know, Biometrics,
27:19
whether it's facial scanning. Or fingerprint that somehow your
27:23
your face has now turned into something that if there's a data
27:28
breach someone's going to have a picture of your face, right?
27:32
So I think there are concerns about the use of facial scanning
27:36
technology I'm wondering are there ways that we can still
27:43
respect privacy and at the same time, accomplish the same result
27:48
so fingerprints voice. Us match or not using a
27:52
biometric using possession but not using a biometric.
27:56
I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.
27:57
Yeah I know I think that's that's great a great way to look
28:05
at it because there is a really mean there's a lot of
28:08
conversation around facial scan and and Biometrics in general.
28:14
And there is a right way, there's a wrong way.
28:16
That's all of course objective in my the the Biometrics that we
28:23
have and and possess are just factors I would much rather use
28:28
something that is you know that's tied to me as a as a
28:32
proof than a password or or something I know but again
28:37
that's book, you know, put that in the right context if it's me
28:40
providing that biometric in a zero knowledge way that is
28:45
basically just going to check some you know check some box and
28:48
say, okay, yep, that looks like Mike And then pass along the
28:51
fact that yes, that's Mike, I'm okay with that.
28:53
If it's passing that whole my a biometric then, you know,
28:57
there's there's issues there and I think that a lot of that is
29:00
the biggest challenge. We're going to have is, is that
29:03
we're, you know, our challenge or our goal is to make this
29:06
technology easy for the masses and we can't explain.
29:12
We just have to know that it's trusted, we can't explain what's
29:15
happening. We just have to develop in a way
29:18
that the consumer is comfortable.
29:20
With with what's going on. I think it's absolutely
29:23
essential that we do some, some type of biometric factor in a
29:28
much better way than we do today, right.
29:31
I use Biometrics to log into my bank account today, but if I
29:35
scan my face and hand you my phone, you can do anything you
29:39
want to do, right? That should that be the case?
29:42
I would feel personally, I would feel much better.
29:44
If, my bank said, okay, during this session we're going to
29:47
scan, you know, once every 5 seconds or three, S or
29:50
continual. We're going to continue to scan
29:53
if I turn that phone away it locks, right?
29:55
That's how application should be designed.
29:57
And and that's the use in my opinion or where, you know
30:00
facial scanning technology and biometric Factor type
30:04
Technologies should be used. So I think there's a I think
30:08
there's a huge role in Biometrics and the in the in our
30:12
future especially in the future of digital identity, there's no
30:15
question. We have a great way today to
30:18
derive an identity. We can Terry identities through
30:22
credentials you know and cryptographic connections but we
30:27
absolutely need those biometric factors in order to secure our
30:31
applications and provide that you know that last mile of
30:35
defense and things, get much easier.
30:37
Once we do that, right? We reduce fraud, we reduce we
30:41
certainly elimination of passwords.
30:42
We keep having that conversation but they should go away in favor
30:46
of who I am, you know, we shouldn't have a Persona at all.
30:50
All that I create I should just use me so.
30:54
So I think that's going to there's a huge role there and
30:57
that technology is evolving. I think we've seen, you know,
30:59
the market explode with biometric service providers.
31:03
I know we've certainly seen our share biometric service
31:06
providers coming in and saying, hey, you know, we really need a
31:09
better carrier to carry Biometrics into the identity
31:13
market. So, you know, we've had some
31:15
interesting conversations there and and I just think there's a
31:19
huge a huge future You're as Biometrics really are
31:23
assimilated into our, that's a probably not the right way to
31:26
say it, but as our Biometrics are integrated into applications
31:31
and and the development of applications and authentication
31:35
systems. Here's a, here's a question for
31:37
you because I think Biometrics interesting, obviously that's an
31:40
area that a lot of I think people are hanging their hats on
31:44
right whether it's voiceprint face print fingerprints at some
31:49
point in the future. Future, maybe in this is kind of
31:51
already happened, you know, there's this concept around
31:54
inserting an RFID chip right into your wrist, your hand, your
31:57
finger, whatever it may be. Here's my question though.
32:00
Is that biometric authentication, if it's a
32:03
physical device that's inserted into you would you consider that
32:07
biometric authentication? Know, it's it's another Factor
32:13
now, depending on the scope of the integration of that device,
32:17
if that device when removed can detect that it's been Moved.
32:20
Then you can make an argument for biometric, right?
32:22
If it says, oh hey, I'm no longer in Mike.
32:24
I'm now in Jeff but then then absolutely there's a biometric
32:28
component to that, but if not, then it's just another factor,
32:31
it's no more, it's of no more value to convenience features
32:34
what it is. It's a no more value for me,
32:36
from an identification perspective than pulling out my
32:39
physical driver's license from from that, you know, from that
32:42
perspective. So I think when we talk about
32:46
things like that, it's for convenience.
32:50
Right. It's almost like the the pet
32:52
chipping there's a great analogy.
32:53
Mike just Associated. RFID tags for people's pets.
32:57
Will make a headline somewhere but it really is a convenience
33:01
thing, right? It's not about identification at
33:03
that point. It's about reducing the friction
33:06
from me and my day-to-day processes.
33:08
And I mentioned this, a lot to my team.
33:10
When we're trying to explain what I want the user experience
33:13
to be, I'm going to date myself. You remember the old, you know,
33:17
get smart when you know Max Mart was be busy.
33:20
He was, he was walking, you know, he was walking down the
33:23
hallway and all the doors, just open and just got out of his
33:25
way. That's how my identity Journey
33:28
needs to be right. I want a hundred different doors
33:31
that are protecting the whatever I'm trying to get to, but I
33:34
don't want to have to interact with any of them.
33:36
I just want him to get out of my way and that's where I think
33:39
Biometrics provide something that we can't do even in, you
33:43
know, today when we say password removal, you know what id rap.
33:46
Oh gosh, we can remove your passwords.
33:47
We ask you to form a connection, maybe scan a QR You are code,
33:51
who wants? I mean it's still a lot of
33:52
friction, right? And and is it better than typing
33:55
in a password or having to go and look it up on a notepad
33:58
stuck to my monitor? Absolutely, it's better than
34:00
that, but that's not where we need to get to write,
34:03
eventually. We're going to get to.
34:05
I'm just me and I'm interacting with the things everything in my
34:09
way, knows how to look for me and figure out who I am and just
34:12
get out of my way. So that's, that's my Holy Grail.
34:15
I hope to see it in my lifetime. We got to get going, fair
34:19
enough. I think.
34:20
Feel the same way. I think it's a way around,
34:23
right? Something like that.
34:25
So, you know, like this has been a fantastic conversation.
34:28
I want to be kind of cognitive the time that we have with you
34:31
and this has been pretty pretty heavy conversation to around
34:34
public identity and a lot of the concerns and challenges that
34:37
kind of goes along with it. So what I want to do is start to
34:40
pull us up to the surface and and I'm a little bit of a
34:43
lighter note here with you, so we're going to go something
34:45
non-identity related. And what I have for you is how
34:50
many places have you lived? And what was your favorite one?
34:54
I am so boring. I've lived in a total of three
34:58
places. And you know my favorite even
35:03
though it was the shortest and that's probably why it's my
35:05
favorite was Tucson. Arizona and I love Tucson
35:09
because I could drive up to Mount Lemmon and snow ski and I
35:14
could drive down and play golf in the same afternoon.
35:17
And at that stage of my life, I didn't have a lot else to do but
35:19
Ski and Golf and it was great. It was absolutely awesome.
35:23
I love Tucson, I was only there for a couple of years and I
35:27
lived in Omaha for a number of years.
35:29
Did my Start up out there in the mid to late 90s and what a great
35:34
Community, you know, just just unbelievable.
35:37
People will businesses thriving, Tech Community, loved it but you
35:42
know, home is Iowa. And this is where I started and
35:45
probably we're all finished. I love to get out of Iowa as
35:48
everyone in Iowa does, right? We love to go.
35:51
We love to go south when it's cold and North when it's hot but
35:56
it's where I've been. So I am I'm pretty boring.
35:58
Only been three, Well, two sides that bad right?
36:01
I think any, I don't know any way to who would argue with, you
36:04
know, skiing during the day or, you know, and then going
36:07
golfing. That's that's things like a
36:08
pretty full life. I would be happy with that.
36:11
I'm pretty boring too. I'm doing the math in my head
36:14
and I only go up to four different places and I've been
36:18
in the Chicago area for the vast majority of my life.
36:21
That's so we know I think when we want to caveat the the one
36:24
place we're limiting it, I think to a kind of a geographical City
36:28
kind of area. Certainly moved around the
36:30
Chicago area quite a bit. I don't know if I can really
36:34
kind of call it my favorite because it's really my only
36:36
adult really kind of memory around it.
36:38
I've been here since I was like six years old so I don't get to
36:43
see the mountains. We just don't have them here.
36:44
It's all flat, it's all traffic. It's all construction.
36:48
People are really nice. The food is really good but man,
36:52
I love when I get to travel and see different types of
36:55
geography. So I love going to Monterrey.
36:58
Mexico. For example, we We've had some
37:00
clients, we've made some friends down there and every time I'm
37:03
down there, I just kind of like sit and stare at the giant
37:05
mountains and, you know, that just the way that it looks is so
37:09
fantastic. I love going to California as
37:11
well for the same reason, but also for the ocean I'm not much
37:14
of an East Coast guy. I'm not a heat and humidity guy.
37:17
So for me, I think temperature is very important as well and
37:22
low humidity. But you know I meant you know
37:25
I'm boring to in that four places, mostly Chicago.
37:29
And you know, maybe at some point in the future I will
37:33
spread my wings and fly all bit more but like you I love to
37:36
travel and see other areas Jim. What about yourself?
37:40
So I've moved around quite a bit, I count nine distinct
37:44
places that I've lived, many more addresses than just 9, but
37:48
9, distinct places my favorite place to live and I think this
37:54
is, if anybody's looking for a place to move to in the United
37:58
States gives Charlotte North Carolina, a consideration.
38:02
It's like a small City with all the big city stuff.
38:07
It's a home airport for what, what is now American Airlines?
38:12
Whether you use it was us, are it, you know, that they're
38:17
putting in like, Light Rail and things like that.
38:20
But you can really afford to live there.
38:23
So I definitely would recommend that to anybody who's thinking
38:27
about trying to find their City. But I want to just mention one
38:31
because I think it's a funny story was that I lived in
38:34
Middletown. Pennsylvania.
38:36
Do you guys have any idea of what's in Middletown?
38:39
Pennsylvania. That special, it's a Three Mile
38:43
Island. Three Mile Island is the one
38:47
location the United States where he had a major meltdown of a
38:51
nuclear power plant. And so when that took place,
38:54
there was a release of toxic nuclear gas from from the tower
39:01
and you know, obviously cause problems that made people want
39:05
to not live there. So one of the things that the
39:08
electric company did was they were giving electricity away for
39:12
like 20 years after the accident.
39:14
Well, I had moved to that town right before that, that ended.
39:18
So I was able to get free electricity for a few months
39:22
while I was there. And then even when they start
39:25
charging for electricity was extremely cheap, so kind of a
39:28
cool story. I'm glad you established a
39:31
timeline there because I thought maybe you were going to say you
39:33
had something to do with the Three Mile Island accident.
39:36
And I was gonna start to ask you some questions and maybe
39:39
validate some things for us. But I like how you saved it at
39:42
the end and said, oh, I was there towards the end of the 20
39:46
years of free electricity so you kind of skated away on that one.
39:49
Yeah, right, well I have no problem dating myself but I'm
39:53
not quite old enough to have actually played a part in that.
39:57
You know, it's funny. You mention Charlotte because my
39:58
wife and I are actually thinking A about moving to that area.
40:01
We've been looking at Asheville quite a bit, which is a little
40:04
bit West of Charlotte. I have a friend who lives north
40:06
of the city of Charlotte and, you know, there's mountains,
40:09
it's the blue. I think it's the Blue Ridge
40:11
Mountains or in that area. And the weather is a lot
40:14
different in the Asheville area start at the base of the
40:17
mountains. So it's not quite as hot and
40:19
humid, but I'm not going to say anything bad about Asheville,
40:21
but if we ever get back to being Road Warriors at the level that
40:26
we were at, you'd be better off your Charlotte because you've
40:29
got International Airport there. Otherwise you can fly from
40:33
Asheville to Charlotte or drive the two hours to get there, each
40:36
time, and there's a Nationals more expensive than Charlotte at
40:40
least when I was there, you know, eight years ago.
40:43
It was, it was a lot more expensive than Charlotte.
40:46
Yeah. For sure, I think that's the one
40:48
thing I would miss about moving out of Chicago is over here for
40:51
all its faults and quirks as I can get anywhere.
40:53
On one flight pretty much. I very rarely have to take a
40:57
connection unless I'm going somewhere super International.
40:59
I Even Paris London Frankfurt. All those are spots, I can get
41:04
two and one flight, which is pretty nice.
41:07
So, I would certainly miss that. I can get to Chicago.
41:10
That's a Chicago or Denver. It's not the only places like
41:13
places, like a good too, but I agree Charlotte's a beautiful
41:17
area. Now, you may be brought to you
41:18
by the Charlotte Chamber of Commerce.
41:20
It's a great area because it's so accessible.
41:23
Like you said, these are lines. You can get right in, but it
41:25
doesn't feel like you're in a big big city I like, yeah.
41:28
So we turn this in a commercial for Charles.
41:29
Nice job. Jim exactly.
41:32
Go Charlotte. All right, well why don't we
41:34
start to wrap things up here? Mike you've been great with your
41:36
time and we certainly appreciate spending it with us before we
41:39
go. Any kind of final thoughts or
41:42
words of wisdom. That folks can kind of take away
41:44
from this conversation, as they're thinking about, you
41:47
know, Sovereign Identity or public Identity or really
41:50
anything. We've kind of covered here.
41:51
That people should be thinking about.
41:52
Yeah, don't overthink it just go right Technologies.
41:57
There, there are plenty of people.
41:59
That can help you start the journey get where you want to
42:04
go. I see too many people that are
42:07
that have been sitting on the fence for for way too long,
42:11
trying to figure out trying to wait for the right man.
42:14
It's got to be perfect. I'm going to wait for this.
42:16
This next thing, you know, this next thing that comes out that's
42:19
going to get us where we need to go.
42:21
Trust me on this. I've been doing this my entire
42:23
professional career. There is no Holy Grail.
42:26
We're not going to get to this perfect Utopia it.
42:29
We got Oh, and you have to start moving the needle, so move the
42:32
needle and you know, will come back next year and we'll move it
42:36
a little bit further, but technology is solid and we're
42:40
ready to help people take that Journey, all of us collectively
42:44
as an industry, ready to help people take that Journey.
42:47
So let's get going. And let's start, let's start
42:50
changing changing our identity futures for the better.
42:54
That sounds like a great Battle Cry here.
42:56
I'm ready to go, go into battle with you Mike Like let's do it.
43:01
Jim how about yourself? Well, Jeff, I keep getting more
43:04
and more one over on identity management with blockchain
43:09
decentralized, identity. I'm not sure.
43:12
I'm still at that point where it's like, I can fully
43:15
articulate, the use cases, but it's, it doesn't seem to be
43:19
going away, and it seems to be kind of showing up as like, hey,
43:23
you know, here are some real world examples of how it can be
43:28
useful. I think, you know, Ingrid of the
43:30
password. Biometrics wallets.
43:34
It's just it's starting to connect and even in this old
43:38
brain of mind that the pathways are starting to the diodes are
43:43
starting to connect with one another and I don't know, I'm
43:48
starting to get one over. I've imagined, I was a lot of
43:51
loose wires and stuff going on out there, but we'll leave that
43:54
for another conversation. So I think that's a good spot
43:57
that we can leave it for this week.
43:58
I'm going to have some some way. It's in the show notes for you
44:00
be able to connect with, Mike on LinkedIn, you can learn more
44:03
about ID rap as well. They're a tidy ramp our am p.com
44:08
and also put a link to Ontario's digital identity.
44:11
They have a great website that kind of really is, probably one
44:14
of the more transparent ones that I've seen, as to how
44:16
they've approached us. They've got a whole section
44:18
really on their timeline of how they've explained how they're
44:21
going about doing it. So I think would be interesting
44:24
in some point, maybe if we can pull some strings and maybe get
44:26
someone from that team over here to You know what, how they've
44:30
done? It kind of bought gone about
44:32
doing this, so definitely check them out.
44:35
We'll have that link in the show notes as well as links for Jim
44:37
and myself on LinkedIn. We're always happy to connect
44:39
the folks who are listening. Send to show ideas, concerns
44:42
comments, tell us we're stupid. Tell us, were great, doesn't
44:45
matter either one works for us. So with that, we'll go ahead and
44:48
leave it. You can also find us on the web
44:51
and its identity at the center.com and on Twitter at
44:54
idac podcast. Mike, thanks so much for your
44:57
time. Jim thanks so much for your
44:58
time. And we'll talk with everyone in
45:00
the next one. Thanks guys.
45:07
Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast.
45:10
If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and
45:12
visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.