Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / Orpheus Heyward | Let the Text Speak | BP2 Season 2 Episode 19
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Doctor Heyward, welcome back to the better preaching podcast. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Good to be back and certainly excited about our conversation. Dr. Frank Weller: Orpheus, when this episode airs, you will have just completed the Nehemiah Next Level Up Conference. That's an annual conference that you founded that's held at Renaissance Church Christ during the first week of November. Tell us why did you found the conference and what are its goals? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Great. The Nehemiah Next Level Up Summit, first and foremost, is named after the great wall builder within scripture, but secondarily my son. And so my son's name is Nehemiah. And so Dr. Frank Weller: Okay. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: I certainly have appreciated the dual significance of the name of the conference. This conference was developed to aid churches in understanding the process of church growth and development. To really become acquainted with the various effective methods that churches have used throughout time, being able to sit at the feet of experts within the fabric of these fields, to understand strategic leadership, to understand ministry development, to understand the place of preaching within church growth and development, to engage in team building exercises, and a host of other subject matters. The goal overall is how. Can we aid the local church to implement effective methods of church growth and development? That's the main emphasis of this conference. And so when I started it, it was really trying to fill a void within African American Churches of Christ. Not that we have not had great conferences. We've always had things that we've tried to engage to help in areas of that. This summit just takes focus on it, it's not a preaching summit. is not designed to showcase preachers per se, but it is designed to bring teams and leaders together in one space to sit under those who have been successful at church growth and development and look at some of the various trends that are coming in the future and some of the things that have not or have or maybe we have outgrown some methodologies. Cause sometimes you can try to hold to an old methodology that doesn't have present relevance. And so we try to help the church grow in method, not grow beyond the doctrine or grow beyond scripture. But how do we make sure that we're staying within scripture, but also honing the effectiveness of how we impact people? So that's what the summit does. And we've been doing it now. I think this year's the year that just the one we just did is the fifth year. And so we're looking forward to year six and twenty twenty-seven, we're already planning some pretty Dr. Frank Weller: That's great. And I what I love about that is the message doesn't change, but methods come and go. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. And you can become married to a method and treat it like it's the message. And that'll Dr. Frank Weller: Right. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: keep you stagnant and it and it and it can affect the church in a very negative way. Dr. Frank Weller: Orpheus, your preaching schedule is packed. Maybe, I don't know, maybe more packed than ever. You just preached at Spire Conference, you preached at r at renew.org's annual conference last year. So my question for you is this: how is preaching at a conference different Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Mm. Dr. Frank Weller: than the week in, week out preaching at Renaissance? And how is it the same? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: I think when you preach at a conference, you are doing what I would call an abbreviated styled message that is designed to fit whatever design design of the conference is. In other words, you're not really attempting to be as detailed. You're really giving a synopsis that allows people to leave with something they can take away. it is not that it's less robust in terms of content, it's just an abbreviated time frame. Where you want to give something that people can hang their hat on, take it home, chew on it, and really think through how they can implement it. Week to week preaching is probably a bit more detailed because you're trying to move a church down the road of vision. Whatever the vision is for that congregation, you plan your preaching in that regard. And so when you're preaching week to week, at least for me. It's a bit more detailed as it relates to what you're trying to unpack from the text that relates to moving that church down the road. So I think the difference is in the details. I think the difference is in one is a synopsis and the other may be a bit more detailed for the purpose of that local church. But I think both should be content-driven and both should be effective in regards to unfolding of the efficacy of the message. Dr. Frank Weller: Interesting that you put it that way. It affirms one of my convictions is that good preaching is is often, maybe always, I don't know if I want to have that inclusive, but good preaching is ecclesiological. It's Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Right. That's right. Dr. Frank Weller: it's hey, who has God called us to be? And it strikes me that maybe a conference message is really focused on the big C church. But the stuff you're doing week in, week out is hey, who's God called us to be as we bear witness in this community here in Atlanta, Georgia? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's right. Dr. Frank Weller: Who's God calling Renaissance to be? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's absolutely right. And it is more germane to what is the purpose and local movement of this church? What's the vision of our mission in the space in which God has placed us? And so that kind of preaching can be a bit more detailed. Whereas a conference, again, it's I like how you put it, it's kind of big picture. You're going 40,000 feet up, you're looking at the whole, you're not looking at one local church. But the overall perspective of Christianity and how it's working within the world. And so in those spaces, you you have a a shorter time frame. I know at Spire, they they I preached for maybe 17 minutes. at home, it's not 17 minutes, it's it's a bit longer. But Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. What is what is a bit longer? How long is it? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: but so I would say it and I'm probably giving myself a lot of grace, I would say 45 minutes. My members might say, No, Doctor Hay, would you actually touch about fifty minutes to maybe longer than that? So my goal is forty five minutes. If I hit that goal, they would think they were released out of Egyptian bondage. They would be like, This is wonderful. but yeah, so it's a bit different. Dr. Frank Weller: When they take down the countdown clock and put up a calendar, Orpheus, you you're in trouble. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Absolutely. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, you preached, I think, just under fifteen minutes when you delivered our commencement address address here in twenty twenty three. And I heard over and over and over that man should have gone longer. Man, they you gotta leave him w gotta leave him wanting more, Orpheus. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: wow. That's awesome. Yes. I really enjoyed my time there. It was a excellent that was my first commencement that I've ever done. I've done several since then, but that was my first one. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, and you'll do several more. Hey, Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: you have a commitment to biblical higher education. So how has pursuing higher education impacted your preaching and why is it such a personal priority for you? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Come from a context where a great deal of my training was in a method we probably would deem proof texting. the ability to go through scripture and to proof text in order to prove a position. the idea was to how do we prove what we believe? That was you start with a conclusion and then you find those scriptures that support that conclusion. since then, as I've gone through academia and as I've thought through in a reflective way, what's the best method of preaching for me. I became very focused on how do I remain loyal to an expositional perspective of preaching. And that just became an ethic over time. I didn't start there, but just through study and reading, I gained an appetite. For being an expositional preacher. In many ways, I would call it being like an expositional apologist. I believe in defending the truth of scr of Christianity, but through an expositional perspective. And so through the the person that I think was two people were very instrumental in that. believe it or not, my mentor, Dr. Washington, was very much expositional. He just didn't use that word per se. and and he was more loyal to defending. positions and propositions and he taught me from that lens. Not that he didn't know how to do exposition. I think he did. But my friend David Wilson, who's a great preacher in Brooklyn, New York, he used to always talk about expository preaching. And he used to get on my nerves because that's what he used all the time. I'm an expository preacher. And I would say I'm a gospel preacher. I don't know what this expository preaching is about. But anyway, through our friendship and time, he made me explore more deeply this idea of exposition and expository perspective. And when I was in my master's degree, Dr. Diane Little, I had a hermeneutics class with her at Baptist Bible College and Seminary at the time. It's now called Clarks Summit University, I believe. She absolutely was a game changer for me. I credit her for my doctoral work and she helped me to really understand the process of being meticulous. as you move through scripture and understand the various circles of context that you move through. She she was a game changer for me. And I think she really increased my appetite for expositional perspective. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, and for us at GLCC, the way we would articulate that is we would talk about exegesis versus eegesis. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's right. Dr. Frank Weller: And you know, you you cannot pick a position and then read that into the text. Something you said Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's right. Dr. Frank Weller: in the previous episode just is really true here. You have to let the text speak. And Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yes, that's right. Dr. Frank Weller: so even in my in w when I taught homiletics back in the day, I'd talk about, you know, start with the text and just like a bee. gathering pollen from a flower, you have to roll around in the text. You have to be covered Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's right. That's absolutely right. Dr. Frank Weller: with the pollen of that text. And then it's from the text then that you have this Eureka moment and and that's what it is. It springs from the text. It all has to start with the text. That's where the power is. Boy, listen to me. Now I'm preaching on my own podcast. I got Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's right. That's right. No, and that's just right. It is what you're saying is completely true. Isegetical perspectives is dangerous when you're putting something in the text that's not there, as opposed to an exegetical perspective. You're pulling from the text what is there, and you're allowing that to form your theology, form your conviction, as opposed to trying to bring a conviction to the text and make the text fit the conviction that you already have. It it has plagued many, many religions within Christianity. I would say not not just within our movement, but beyond, you will find where there is a premise and then they try to find scriptures to fit that premise. And I think that can be counterproductive theologically. Dr. Frank Weller: Herein is another similarity between the Churches of Christ and the independent Christian churches is we Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Hmm. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: I think both branches of the movement went through a phase where we would stake out a position and then go find texts to support it. And thankfully Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Dr. Frank Weller: we've moved beyond that, or at least in large part we've moved beyond that. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Absolutely. Absolutely. Dr. Frank Weller: Hey, you you teach preaching at Lipscomb. tell our listeners about the course. Is it undergrad? Is it graduate? And and what is it you're trying to accomplish with your students in that course? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's awesome. So I teach, I have taught grad as well as undergrad. And it was a clo the undergrad was called expository preaching, and the grad class was biblical preaching. And in both cases, the school's goal was to ignite again passion for the process of preaching, to enjoy the homiletical journey. And so in both of those classes, we tried to help people understand what we're talking about now, is the the the relationship between homoletics and hermeneutics, that your hermeneutical process has to feed your homoletical process. And so in at Lipscomb they really wanted to resurrect the preaching culture and they brought me on there as an affiliate professor of expos of expositional preaching and Christian leadership. So that's where my role is now. That role is graduated a bit where now I come in as a guest lecturer. to various biblical studies classes, but the the linchpin is to help people see the beauty of preaching within the context of the Christian faith. And so I enjoy that and we are now planning a preaching symposium in twenty twenty-seven. We're hoping to get that off of its feet. And so I'm gonna be building out various mechanisms of of mentorship cells where preachers from across the country can get into these mentorship cells and learn this process of effective preaching. I also preach at Point University and I teach there as well. I'm about to start preaching a preaching course on expositional preaching and excited about that as well. So that's at Lipscomb though is where where I've I dominantly spend my time and the president is very serious about training preachers. He's very serious about approaching preaching from an academic lens, but also a practical lens. And so my job is to bridge academia with the practicality of how it works within a church context. Dr. Frank Weller: What are the textbooks that you're using either at Lipscomb or at Point? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: I have used Rame Ramesh Richard's text on expository preaching, and he uses a very powerful methodology of building out a skeleton and then putting flesh on the skeleton. And it's a powerful seven process process that he a seven step process that he uses. So I use Ramesh Richard's book pretty often. I also use a book called The Twelve Essential Skills of Preaching, and that is a pretty robust book. and does an excellent job in taking you through the the details of exegesis and exegetical process, process, syntactical structures, looking at various clauses and phrases of the text to really call to really get into the meaning of the passage. So it does a lot with grammar. It does quite a bit with breaking the text into clauses, it deals with then historical background, cultural background. linguistic background, archaeological background. It really just pulls together the various concentric circles of context. So those two books have been great. The greatest, not greatest, but one of the biggest impacts has been Bryan Chappell. Bryan Chapel was my professor, one of my professors of preaching at Knox Theological Seminary. And he does a book on his book is called Redeeming Expository Preaching. Does an excellent work there. I had a chance to sit under him for for several classes, but he was just an amazing teacher in the expository preaching process. So those are some of the books that I use. Three those are three. Dr. Frank Weller: I love what you yeah, I love what you have to say about about context because we we in order to really understand what the author meant, we have to understand the context in which that that was written. And that's critically important because we can't bridge the context from there to now if we don't know what the original context was. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah, I I really to that point really try to move I mean there's several concentric circles of context, but three major ones, immediate context, your remote context, and your canonical context, taking those three under consideration to help frame your text and spending time with the historical cultural background that I think informs how we should understand what the author's communicating to the first audience to which he's writing. So context is critical. I think it's dangerous to divorce a passage from its context and then give it a meaning it never had. And then from there you start building these theological building blocks on something that the author never intended. So it's very, very dangerous and context is key. when a lot of people ask me, Hey, do I have to go and get a doctorate or do I have to be an expert in this? I say you're already an expert in hermeneutics. Every day we interpret in context. Text messages, emails. Newsletters. We are Dr. Frank Weller: Mm-hmm. Right. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: accustomed to contextual framing. We just don't apply it to biblical studies every time. But I tell people when they first get in my class, I say, you are all experts in hermeneutics because you do it every single day as it relates to contextual sensitivity. So that's how I usually start a class before they get intimidated by all the stuff we're about to do. I'm like, you're already an expert in this. You just have to apply Dr. Frank Weller: Right. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: it now to a biblical text. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, and w what really all heresy is built on lousy hermeneutics. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. It's always isolating a passage, pulling that passage, and then building a whole mountain on a passage that you remove from its original context. That's absolutely where heresy comes from. Dr. Frank Weller: That's right. you obviously love your time in the study preparing to preach Orpheus, but it's obvious to anyone who's sat under your preaching that you love standing in the pulpit too. I'd be really interested to know what your weekly rhythm looks like. So walk us through your kind of typical week of sermon preparation as you're preparing to come to the pulpit at Renaissance. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Usually by sun well, I take a the month, fact is I'm in the month, month of October, the end of it, I go on a retreat and I plan the year coming, my whole calendar. What do I want to teach each month? What's the thematic emphasis? And so each week then I build out each sermon based on my calendar of planning. And I usually begin with the text on Sunday. I already know what text is going to be. By Monday, I'm spending a great deal of time reading that passage and several translations. I just want to become acquainted with what the text says and just with the normal reading. So I probably at the very least am going to read that passage in about seven different translations. Then and that will include looking at it within the Greek text. I'll usually look at the Nestle-Aland and just make just make sure the English and the Greek are are are in harmony. In many cases they are, and in some places you'll find some divergence. so I'll spend Monday linguistically. By Tuesday, I'm breaking that passage into its clauses so that I can really understand the flow of the author's communication. And then by Wednesday, I'm looking at it from a cultural lens. What is happening within the fabric of this text? Why was this book written? Do I understand why the passage fits the fabric of this document? What is the intent of this document? What is it designed to communicate theologically? And historically. Then by Thursday, I'm I'm building a bridge. I am trying to make sure I can articulate in at least one to two sentences what is this text communicating to its original audience, and what is the practical thing that it's communicating to the present day audience? I call it corresponding application. Dr. Frank Weller: Mm-hmm. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: What does this text mean here? And what is its lasting meaning for all ages to see how it corresponds to our present day. And then by Friday, I'm building out the sermon. I'm building out the outline. I'm writing it out. I'm making sure that I can articulate it well, that I'm able to take all of the research and scale it down to something that's chewable for grandma on Sunday morning. Because I don't want grandma to be lost by all of the academia. I don't want her to be in a space where she's trying to figure out, okay, what do you mean by the etymology of this word? I want to try to eliminate. All of that to make it one chewable bite that everybody can get. And so that's where I am during my week normally. I'm moving through that process. Dr. Frank Weller: That Friday work is really difficult, isn't it? Because w to to distill everything you've done over the previous four days into that one what Billy Strother would call a theme, what I would call a sticky point, that that thing that Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yes. Dr. Frank Weller: sticks with you when you walk out the door, boy, that's really challenging. And and there there are times when when I was preaching week in and week out where that would be the most difficult part of my entire process was trying to really nail down that one simple positive declarative statement that is the kernel Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yes. Dr. Frank Weller: of the text. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Absolutely. It's forming that propositional statement. Like what what am I out to communicate to this audience? And you have to learn that everything you researched can't go with you into the pulpit. and you can't sometimes your ego wants people you want people to know I studied 20 hours to get this. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's right. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: but but actually God wants you to simplify it so that they can chew it and understand it. And they get the big idea. That's what Haddon Robinson would call it. He would call it the big idea. You know, what's the big idea of the text? And what's your compliment? And what's your what's your subject and what's your compliment to that subject? And make it one statement that's the overarching big idea that you're communicating. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's right. And I I think the really good sermons have lots of good stuff on the cutting room floor that never make it into the final print. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yes. Right. So true. Absolutely Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: true. Yes, sir. Dr. Frank Weller: A couple of years ago, Christian Standard detailed a survey that revealed two out of every three independent Christian church preachers are set to retire in the next 20 years. And man, that raised all kinds of alarm bells within our Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Mm. Dr. Frank Weller: movement, and appropriately so, about a ministry pipeline that's too empty to meet the future need for preachers. And so here's my question for you. You you talked with me earlier about in our last episode about how Marshall Keeble impacted your mentor and you're you're just two generations removed from from Brother Keeble, are there similar concerns in the churches of Christ about an empty ministry pipeline? And if so, what's being done to address them? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: So yes, there's a great concern in regards to the perpetuity of building ministers for local work. And there are a lot of churches that are vacant that cannot hire or have within their space a viable, educated, prepared preacher. And it's it's becoming very difficult to place preachers within churches because there is not a A great, great interest in making ministry a full-time vocation. there there is a very that interest has decreased. I don't know all the reasons why, but I do know that there is a concern about the vacancy of pulpits across churches of Christ. One of the things we're trying to do in that regard is engage in resurrecting mentorship and really getting intentional about bringing ministers to not just sending them to school, but bringing them within local churches to be mentored by. A seasoned minister that's been in the game for some time. We're learning that there is a relationship and a healthy connection between sending one to school for the academic learning, but not forgetting the practical everyday movement of ministry within the local church. And so both become important. One of the things we're trying to do at Lipscomb is marry that. So we're saying, hey, we want to encourage academia. We want to encourage learning. the nuances of preaching and all of the things that go with being effective in understanding the process. But we want to connect you to a seasoned minister as well and send you to a church where you can gain how all of that works within a very real context with real people. So I think resurrecting mentorship needs to come back. It was very much a part of our restoration history culture. Particularly in African American churches where it was normal for any given preacher to have several students and several individuals that they were mentoring. And so I know my mentor, Dr. WF Washington, has impacted preachers for for decades and has done great a great deal of training. And we just got to bring that back. I think we need to be intentional, not to say, hey, we want the institution to take over training, but to marry that training needs to be in both places. the academia and in the local church. I think it's important to do that. Dr. Frank Weller: I agree. I think there needs to be orthodoxy in the academy and there needs to be orthopraxy in the church. L let's make Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's right. That's right. Dr. Frank Weller: sure that we're we're we give them a strong why and and Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's right. That's right. Dr. Frank Weller: what in the academy, but let's make sure we really flesh out the how within the context of the local church. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's right. That's absolutely right. And and I think if we do that, we will be able to resurrect the passion for ministry. I think we just have been a little negligent as it relates to the intentionality of discipleship. And I know we talk about discipleship within the the whole of Christianity, but there is a such thing as discipleship within the development of the ministerial cohort. And I think that needs to come back and I feel like schools and churches need to gain a better partnership and marry together again so that we're giving the best of both worlds, the practicality as well as the academia. Dr. Frank Weller: That's right. I one last question because believe it or not, we're about out of time. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Wow. Dr. Frank Weller: I know it. my question is just this. Better preaching podcasts exist to improve preaching, but also to inspire the next generation of preachers. And so let's assume for a moment that you have some young men listening to this podcast and maybe contemplating what God might want from them. maybe haven't made the decision to pursue vocational ministry, but are certainly considering it. What would be your encouragement to them? Why would you say, hey, young man, you should become a preacher. Here's why. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: I would say that I would want them to first and foremost fall in love with the finished work of Christ Jesus and its impact on humanity. I think it begins with understanding what Jesus accomplished and actually embracing the fundamental essentiality of what that work did, that the cross changed everything. And then recognizing that it didn't only change it for the world, but it changed it for them, the individual. I think once you really understand that conviction, it births a desire. It can birth a desire for ministry and preaching, to preach that good news. And then I would suggest fall in love with the beauty of the word of God. That studying the word of God is that interesting moment when you get to interface with the mind of God. That scripture allows us to explore God's mind. And what a powerful thing and what an intimate process to explore the mind of God. And I think once you get that, it can birth a passion that is unreal, that a f it's a fire that won't get quenched. Dr. Frank Weller: Amen. Well, from your lips to God's ears, let's let's raise up the next generation of servant leaders for the church and world. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Let's do it. Let's do it, Doctor. Dr. Frank Weller: Hey, we're out of time. As we wrap up, I want to encourage our listeners to check out the Nehemiah Next Level Up Summit at Renaissance Church of Christ website and check out the Better Preaching Podcast at betterpreaching.org for past episodes and the Better Preaching blog. I want to thank you, Dr. Orpheus Heyward, and I want to thank Great Lakes Christian College for sponsoring the podcast. Most importantly, I want to thank you, our listeners, for listening to and supporting the Better Preaching Podcast. Remember to like and rate the podcast when you hit the subscribe button. or leave us a rating it helps others find BP2. Join us next time for another insightful conversation because better preaching makes a bigger impact.