Latest / Deep Tech Germany – AI, Robotics & Frontier Innovation by Startuprad.io™ / Metaloop: Digitizing the Scrap-Metal Circular Economy
Transcript
- WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:06.555 And welcome, everybody. This is Joe from start up rate dot Joe, your 2 00:00:06.555 --> 00:00:09.965 StartupRadio podcast, YouTube blog, and Internet radio station 3 00:00:10.505 --> 00:00:13.805 on the German Austrian and Swiss StartupRadio scene. 4 00:00:14.105 --> 00:00:17.720 Today, I do have a guest who is cofounder 5 00:00:18.580 --> 00:00:22.180 of a startup in Austria, but he's originally from the very 6 00:00:22.180 --> 00:00:25.000 north of Germany. That's why I welcome him with a traditional. 7 00:00:29.465 --> 00:00:32.684 How are you doing, Jan? I'm great. 8 00:00:33.065 --> 00:00:36.790 Sunny day in Austria. Thanks. How are you? It for for 9 00:00:36.950 --> 00:00:40.630 there there are not a lot of people who are watching the full form video 10 00:00:40.630 --> 00:00:44.170 here, but we may tell our audience the the you 10,000 11 00:00:44.635 --> 00:00:48.155 that are listening to this interview, that the the the 12 00:00:48.155 --> 00:00:51.835 background looked at at first sight. I thought, is he in 13 00:00:51.835 --> 00:00:55.650 Bali? Because there's a lot of green a lot of natural wood, nice 14 00:00:55.650 --> 00:00:59.410 paste. Yeah. I mean, that that's, that's our 15 00:00:59.410 --> 00:01:03.095 office. That's our office in, in Graz, Austria. You 16 00:01:03.095 --> 00:01:06.935 have to do something to bring people to the office. For everybody who's listening 17 00:01:06.935 --> 00:01:10.782 to this, I'm sorry. I sound a little bit like I have a 18 00:01:10.782 --> 00:01:14.390 code. It's hay fever season, and it's all over me. Really sorry 19 00:01:14.390 --> 00:01:17.909 about that. As we already teased, you are from the 20 00:01:17.909 --> 00:01:21.635 very north of Germany, Ost Holstein, 21 00:01:22.095 --> 00:01:25.855 actually a place I just spent a nice vacation. Can 22 00:01:25.855 --> 00:01:29.219 you tell us a little bit how you grew up there 23 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:32.579 and ended up at a university in Austria? 24 00:01:33.679 --> 00:01:37.465 Well, I mean yeah. So very originally, I'm actually from Essen, from, 25 00:01:37.705 --> 00:01:41.465 from Northern Australia, but only spent my kind of 26 00:01:41.465 --> 00:01:45.050 first 2, 3 years there. And, yeah, then grew up in in, 27 00:01:45.850 --> 00:01:49.390 small and beautiful, which is, which is in, 28 00:01:49.930 --> 00:01:53.645 a bit north of Hamburg. Yeah. I mean, 29 00:01:53.645 --> 00:01:57.405 it's a it's a the flatland, a lot of 30 00:01:57.405 --> 00:02:00.465 lakes, also the sea the Baltic Sea is very close. 31 00:02:01.450 --> 00:02:04.970 It's a let's say, it's it's a it's a nice area 32 00:02:04.970 --> 00:02:08.815 to to grow up in, but then kind of after high school, kind 33 00:02:08.815 --> 00:02:12.415 of the the options are very limited. There's there's not much to do, 34 00:02:12.415 --> 00:02:16.255 and people are kind of, a lot of 35 00:02:16.255 --> 00:02:19.379 my friends were were fleeing to the, to the bigger 36 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:23.700 cities. Hamburg made with natural, goal there. Right? 37 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:27.704 Yeah. Hamburg is kind of, like, 80 kilometers away, and and that's kind of the 38 00:02:27.704 --> 00:02:31.305 the natural, first first step for 39 00:02:31.305 --> 00:02:34.984 many. Mhmm. I see. And and and 40 00:02:34.984 --> 00:02:38.690 then how you did end up at the university in 41 00:02:38.690 --> 00:02:42.450 Graz in Austria? Yeah. I mean, 42 00:02:42.450 --> 00:02:45.970 that's that's actually, a bit of a, of a longer 43 00:02:45.970 --> 00:02:49.785 story. I always had these kind of, this 44 00:02:49.785 --> 00:02:53.625 interest in, doing something good for 45 00:02:53.625 --> 00:02:57.310 the, for the society in general. I mean, it sounds like 46 00:02:57.310 --> 00:03:01.150 big words, but, it's already how I grew up that's kind of 47 00:03:01.150 --> 00:03:04.845 with, you know, some you know, you grow up in a in a privileged 48 00:03:04.845 --> 00:03:08.305 world, in privileged privileged land. You have opportunities 49 00:03:08.765 --> 00:03:12.590 and, that also means you have responsibilities. That's that's a bit kind of 50 00:03:12.590 --> 00:03:15.629 the mindset that I grew up with. And, 51 00:03:16.269 --> 00:03:19.409 at the same time, I was always fascinated by the, 52 00:03:21.235 --> 00:03:24.135 yeah, by the StartupRadio stories from the from the entrepreneurs, 53 00:03:24.995 --> 00:03:28.615 the the school dropouts that big the build the the huge, 54 00:03:29.290 --> 00:03:33.049 unicorn companies and, yeah. It's in 55 00:03:33.049 --> 00:03:36.650 the beginning, these worlds didn't fit together for me, so it's 56 00:03:36.650 --> 00:03:40.474 like because social entrepreneurship wasn't a thing at that time when 57 00:03:40.474 --> 00:03:43.995 when I was still in school and kind of either you had 58 00:03:43.995 --> 00:03:47.600 the the NGO side, kind of the, you know, 59 00:03:47.600 --> 00:03:51.120 donation driven driven, doing 60 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.580 good, or you had kind of, the 61 00:03:54.640 --> 00:03:57.075 the, you know, super capitalist, 62 00:03:58.255 --> 00:04:02.015 high growth stories, only only profit driven. That was kind of 63 00:04:02.015 --> 00:04:05.739 the at least my thinking, at 64 00:04:05.739 --> 00:04:09.420 that time when I when I left school. And then yeah. I 65 00:04:09.420 --> 00:04:13.165 I like I spent some time in in Latin America 66 00:04:13.224 --> 00:04:16.584 just to travel kind of. I saw that's the that's the that's the 67 00:04:16.584 --> 00:04:20.139 first and maybe last opportunity to spend 7 68 00:04:20.139 --> 00:04:23.099 months in a row, at a place without a plan, and, 69 00:04:23.979 --> 00:04:27.795 that's what I did at that time. Learned some Spanish, and 70 00:04:27.795 --> 00:04:30.775 then was thinking, okay. What what can I do? And was kind of constantly, 71 00:04:31.875 --> 00:04:35.600 thinking about what the next steps are. And, Sorry. I 72 00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:39.120 I I tend to get a little bit sidetracked from time to time, but, 73 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:42.660 you spent some time in South America, 74 00:04:43.645 --> 00:04:47.264 can you tell us a few beautiful places that are kind 75 00:04:47.564 --> 00:04:51.025 of flying under the radar you would recommend people to visit? 76 00:04:53.630 --> 00:04:57.230 Sure. I mean, it's it's kinda it's it's a long time 77 00:04:57.230 --> 00:05:00.290 ago. Yeah. I'm not sure if it's if it's still the, 78 00:05:00.965 --> 00:05:03.384 same time today. Same same thing today. 79 00:05:04.965 --> 00:05:08.724 We started actually in, in Costa Rica. And then I spent, I 80 00:05:08.724 --> 00:05:12.060 think, 2 months in Panama. In Panama, 81 00:05:12.760 --> 00:05:16.200 I think in the north, there's a there's a there's an island called, 82 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:20.515 Bocas del Toro, if I if I remember correctly. And I 83 00:05:20.515 --> 00:05:23.255 think it only cost me a $140 to do my, 84 00:05:24.275 --> 00:05:27.980 scuba diving license. I think they the driving school said at that 85 00:05:27.980 --> 00:05:31.820 time it's the 2nd cheapest place in the world to do scuba diving, and it 86 00:05:31.820 --> 00:05:35.420 was amazingly beautiful and kind of like what you imagine a 87 00:05:35.420 --> 00:05:38.925 Caribbean island to be like. And at the same time, you know, 88 00:05:38.925 --> 00:05:40.465 being backpacking tourists, 89 00:05:43.165 --> 00:05:46.900 super limited budget. I think I like, for the for the 7 months, 90 00:05:46.900 --> 00:05:50.040 I spent the only €3,000, 91 00:05:51.060 --> 00:05:54.200 in total, including flights back and forth. So, 92 00:05:55.745 --> 00:05:59.445 and I didn't work, during that time. So I was on a very low budget 93 00:05:59.505 --> 00:06:02.384 and, some lessons actually that I learned from the 94 00:06:02.499 --> 00:06:05.150 StartupRadio, without knowing. 95 00:06:06.009 --> 00:06:09.229 Nevertheless, so so Boca del Toro, really nice. And another, 96 00:06:10.729 --> 00:06:14.335 recommendation is really the the inland of, Argentina. 97 00:06:14.555 --> 00:06:18.075 Yeah. So we we actually hitchhike from the from the border 98 00:06:18.075 --> 00:06:21.690 of, like, Argentina, Bolivia down to the very, very 99 00:06:21.690 --> 00:06:25.389 south in, Patagonia? Patagonia. Yeah. Ushuaia, 100 00:06:25.530 --> 00:06:29.070 kind of the the, I think, the furthest south city that exists. 101 00:06:29.735 --> 00:06:33.335 And that's that's amazingly beautiful, kind of the I I really like 102 00:06:33.335 --> 00:06:37.180 it. And even though I'm a vegetarian, they have I enjoyed 103 00:06:37.180 --> 00:06:40.160 some meat during that time, and it was and and it's amazingly good. 104 00:06:42.780 --> 00:06:46.615 Okay. That one can keep going. Yeah. 105 00:06:48.115 --> 00:06:51.395 I okay. So so where do we so how I how I got actually to 106 00:06:51.395 --> 00:06:54.055 to Graz. Right? That was that was the story. Right? So, 107 00:06:55.390 --> 00:06:58.910 yeah. Basically, I I then said, okay. Let's let me study something that 108 00:06:58.910 --> 00:07:02.590 is, kind of both, you know, doing good and 109 00:07:02.590 --> 00:07:06.225 also entrepreneurial. So I started, studying, 110 00:07:08.285 --> 00:07:12.065 energy and environmental management or something, like that. 111 00:07:12.460 --> 00:07:16.300 And then yeah. Wasn't really interested in the studies. It it was 112 00:07:16.540 --> 00:07:20.140 and and yeah. I I recognized kind of in my first semester that I need 113 00:07:20.140 --> 00:07:23.935 to I need to start doing because this is like, I had enough of school 114 00:07:23.935 --> 00:07:27.215 and I always wanted to to do stuff and kind of 115 00:07:27.375 --> 00:07:30.435 yeah. And that's that's what what actually got me going. 116 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:35.740 I just said, okay. You know, let's let's start building a business. 117 00:07:36.520 --> 00:07:38.540 I had a I had a 118 00:07:40.855 --> 00:07:44.535 I had a, yeah, let's say family home 119 00:07:44.535 --> 00:07:47.275 that we that we were visiting regularly in, 120 00:07:48.390 --> 00:07:52.070 in Greece. And, yeah. Then I I I said, 121 00:07:52.070 --> 00:07:55.735 okay. I mean, I show up the story Joe a bit. 122 00:07:55.814 --> 00:07:59.495 But in the end, I I started to build a composting, site 123 00:07:59.495 --> 00:08:02.775 there, or I was in the process of doing so. In the end, I didn't 124 00:08:02.775 --> 00:08:06.520 do it. But this is kind of what I like, the 125 00:08:06.520 --> 00:08:10.200 concept that I built, during that time, the business plan, and 126 00:08:10.200 --> 00:08:13.975 so that was kind of in my first semesters at, at 127 00:08:13.975 --> 00:08:17.735 university. And, you know, then, you know, 128 00:08:17.735 --> 00:08:20.315 things things develop from there. Yeah. I 129 00:08:22.930 --> 00:08:26.210 won the social impact award that kind of was, then, 130 00:08:27.010 --> 00:08:30.664 launched at that time from the from the Viennese 131 00:08:30.664 --> 00:08:34.345 University, and the and the Impact Hubs 132 00:08:34.345 --> 00:08:37.945 network. And that encouraged me as a as 133 00:08:37.945 --> 00:08:41.669 a quite young student, kind of, to keep on going on the track 134 00:08:41.669 --> 00:08:44.810 even though I, you know, I didn't have a lot. Yeah. So, 135 00:08:45.670 --> 00:08:49.065 I just tried to do one step after another and 136 00:08:49.445 --> 00:08:52.985 be kind of, you know, Joe out there, expose myself, and, 137 00:08:53.285 --> 00:08:57.100 you know, try to try to get real learning experiences. 138 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:05.175 I see. I was always wondering how you ended up in 139 00:09:05.175 --> 00:09:07.035 Greece with the, 140 00:09:08.615 --> 00:09:12.395 with the, the the the the composting 141 00:09:12.615 --> 00:09:15.600 plant, but now I do have an idea. 142 00:09:16.540 --> 00:09:19.760 According to what we talked before, 143 00:09:21.454 --> 00:09:24.975 the the the the composting plant in Greece, did did you shut it down or 144 00:09:24.975 --> 00:09:28.654 did you sell it? No. Actually, it it, it was it was 145 00:09:28.654 --> 00:09:32.360 never realized. I mean, I, you know, I kind of I 146 00:09:32.360 --> 00:09:36.200 I got that to to concept stage, and then I said, alright. You 147 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:39.640 know, either it's, you know, it can only fly if I actually go to Greece. 148 00:09:39.640 --> 00:09:43.435 So then I said, okay, you know, let's let's give it a try. I went 149 00:09:43.515 --> 00:09:47.195 I had kind of set 1 year to go there and try to to 150 00:09:47.195 --> 00:09:50.870 implement it. You know, met 151 00:09:50.870 --> 00:09:54.630 with, local stakeholders and, you know, in the end, I realized it's 152 00:09:54.630 --> 00:09:58.150 kind of it's too much dependent on, on, you know, 153 00:09:58.150 --> 00:10:01.735 political will, because it's it's kind of in the in 154 00:10:01.735 --> 00:10:05.495 the waste regime of the municipality, and kind of you need to get 155 00:10:05.495 --> 00:10:08.990 them on board, and then you have kind of the whole political game 156 00:10:08.990 --> 00:10:12.670 of, you know, getting majorities and and say, okay. 157 00:10:12.670 --> 00:10:16.225 That's kind of that's too much. And then also kind of, you know, non 158 00:10:16.685 --> 00:10:20.445 Greek speaking. And, I said, yeah. Let I'm not I'm not 159 00:10:20.445 --> 00:10:24.030 gonna I'm not gonna kinda further push here because they also said, you know, it's 160 00:10:24.510 --> 00:10:28.050 like, you know, we need to wait, and it's like, yeah. No. I I'm 161 00:10:28.670 --> 00:10:32.245 not I'm not coming here just to wait. So I said, okay. I I need 162 00:10:32.245 --> 00:10:36.005 to do something that kind of where I'm more, you 163 00:10:36.005 --> 00:10:38.505 know, I can be more self effective. And, 164 00:10:39.940 --> 00:10:43.700 yeah, started to, to actually 165 00:10:43.700 --> 00:10:47.240 build a drop shipping business for, for organic fashion 166 00:10:47.895 --> 00:10:51.735 and, move to Berlin for that. Yeah. And by 167 00:10:51.735 --> 00:10:55.255 the way, that was all still while doing my studies. Joe so I was kind 168 00:10:55.255 --> 00:10:57.230 of, like, back and forth and, 169 00:10:59.070 --> 00:11:02.750 yeah, didn't finish my studies at that time. Only after then 170 00:11:02.750 --> 00:11:06.255 2 years in in Berlin, I finally said, okay. You know, I I still 171 00:11:06.255 --> 00:11:09.855 wanna at least have the bachelor, degree, so that have, 172 00:11:10.015 --> 00:11:13.255 something in my pocket that people can relate to and say, okay. That is a 173 00:11:13.295 --> 00:11:17.040 he achieved some sense. So, yeah, that that's, 174 00:11:18.560 --> 00:11:22.320 that's the story. Talking about drop shipping 175 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:25.895 here. You do you did tell me it's called 176 00:11:25.895 --> 00:11:29.275 Goodwear, but, I'm not necessarily 177 00:11:29.575 --> 00:11:32.795 want to go into too much detail. Sustainable clothing 178 00:11:33.649 --> 00:11:37.330 is a really, really great idea and appreciate that you did it. 179 00:11:37.330 --> 00:11:40.390 But there's a lot of people out there on Instagram, 180 00:11:40.690 --> 00:11:44.515 Facebook, Twitter, and so on and so forth who are trying to make you 181 00:11:44.515 --> 00:11:48.115 believe that drop shipping, you just need to set up a website and business is 182 00:11:48.115 --> 00:11:51.910 going fine. The same with the guys at the vending machine who first put 183 00:11:51.910 --> 00:11:55.590 in the money and then then, 5 minutes later, turn on the video 184 00:11:55.590 --> 00:11:58.950 camera and take it out and tell you what a great business this list even 185 00:11:58.950 --> 00:12:02.595 though they make their money, just with the people who follow them and buy 186 00:12:02.595 --> 00:12:06.115 their courses. Can you tell us a tiny bit about the 187 00:12:06.115 --> 00:12:09.759 reality of dropshipping here? Yeah. I mean, that that 188 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:12.800 that was in a completely different time. I mean, that was kinda select 189 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:17.185 when was it? In, like, 2,000 11 or 190 00:12:17.185 --> 00:12:20.945 so? So it's like, this didn't exist. Right? So that was I'm not even 191 00:12:20.945 --> 00:12:24.780 sure. That was at this like, before I had the first iPhone. Right? So 192 00:12:24.780 --> 00:12:27.820 there wasn't even Insta. There is, like well, there was Insta, but just kind of 193 00:12:27.820 --> 00:12:31.500 to make photos to have the retro filter for photos, if you remember 194 00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:35.055 that. But, kind of, there were certainly not the 195 00:12:35.055 --> 00:12:38.735 people, kind of, making business models out 196 00:12:38.735 --> 00:12:42.540 of courses, at least not on Insta. And, 197 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:47.180 I mean, in the reality, we just what we actually did was we 198 00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:49.205 we were Menninger, 199 00:12:51.285 --> 00:12:55.065 sustainable clothing of clothing that was produced 200 00:12:55.125 --> 00:12:58.620 already in larger volumes, but originally 201 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:02.600 kind of meant to be used for merchandise. Right? So that was, kind of like 202 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:06.279 that use how, like, for the for music merchandise and, like, all these type of 203 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:10.005 things. Usually, you had kind of prints on that, and we said, okay. You know, 204 00:13:10.005 --> 00:13:12.585 let's just to to to get it going, 205 00:13:13.765 --> 00:13:17.490 yeah. I mean, that's perfectly fine. That that was what I was wearing 206 00:13:17.490 --> 00:13:20.930 at that time. It's just kind of, like, just simple, like, plain 207 00:13:20.930 --> 00:13:24.535 color, stuff. And, it was 208 00:13:24.535 --> 00:13:28.235 very it was very cheap compared to, to other sustainable 209 00:13:28.295 --> 00:13:31.095 tolling that you were buying at that time. Right? So where you had kind of, 210 00:13:31.095 --> 00:13:34.780 like, t shirts from from €80, €90 211 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:38.840 onwards, and that's still, being a student just didn't fit the 212 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.755 budget. So that that was a kind of completely different time when you didn't have 213 00:13:41.755 --> 00:13:45.275 a market for that. I mean, now you get, you you get a, 214 00:13:45.275 --> 00:13:48.015 like, organic cotton, 215 00:13:49.470 --> 00:13:52.830 in kind of in h and h and m. Right? So, that 216 00:13:52.830 --> 00:13:56.610 wasn't that wasn't the case at that time. It was very niche y, and 217 00:13:58.215 --> 00:14:01.735 there was actually, someone that was providing that and it was 218 00:14:01.735 --> 00:14:05.415 possible kind of to do drop shipping. And we 219 00:14:05.415 --> 00:14:09.130 we, yeah, just kind of iterated on building a low 220 00:14:09.130 --> 00:14:12.510 risk, business model at that time just to kind of practice 221 00:14:12.570 --> 00:14:15.875 entrepreneurship in a way. Right? To see, okay, how does it actually, you know, what 222 00:14:15.875 --> 00:14:19.714 are the concrete steps to actually build up a business? What are the concrete 223 00:14:19.714 --> 00:14:23.490 steps, you know, to acquire the first customers? To do marketing, you know, to 224 00:14:23.490 --> 00:14:26.850 build up a community, like, these these type of things. Yeah? It's 225 00:14:26.850 --> 00:14:30.529 like, it it wasn't a, a gigantic business at at 226 00:14:30.529 --> 00:14:33.965 all. Right? But but still, kind of, you know, it was profitable and it and 227 00:14:33.965 --> 00:14:36.685 it just worked. And that that was kind of, for me, the beauty at that 228 00:14:36.685 --> 00:14:40.490 time. I wanted to get something going and just figure it out, you 229 00:14:40.490 --> 00:14:44.330 know? How does it work and to put the different pieces together that 230 00:14:44.330 --> 00:14:47.710 you need in the business to, to make something work. 231 00:14:48.735 --> 00:14:51.055 And by the way, I did that with my brother at that time, so it 232 00:14:51.055 --> 00:14:54.574 was also it was also a fun, family 233 00:14:54.574 --> 00:14:58.250 business. I see. 234 00:14:58.390 --> 00:14:59.130 I see. 235 00:15:02.390 --> 00:15:05.845 The the the the the the only question I have is you said it 236 00:15:05.845 --> 00:15:09.444 was, the the the organic clothing was kind of the 237 00:15:09.444 --> 00:15:13.260 base for getting merge to turn 238 00:15:13.260 --> 00:15:17.020 it into merchandise, get prints on and whatever. Did you 239 00:15:17.020 --> 00:15:20.855 get any. Any client, any customer, 240 00:15:20.915 --> 00:15:24.535 any band, any product that we would recognize today? 241 00:15:26.350 --> 00:15:29.630 No. I mean no. No. No. So this is kind of that's not we 242 00:15:29.790 --> 00:15:32.530 so, so our clients were kind of 243 00:15:33.765 --> 00:15:37.605 a b to c. Right? So, but I was saying kind of 244 00:15:37.605 --> 00:15:41.170 the because we didn't we didn't produce it ourselves. Right? We bought 245 00:15:41.170 --> 00:15:44.630 some that was already on stock somewhere else, but 246 00:15:45.010 --> 00:15:48.450 meant to be used for, for merchandise. Right? So kind of 247 00:15:48.450 --> 00:15:52.115 the the that's why they were already producing it and were kind of, 248 00:15:52.115 --> 00:15:55.954 like, had already economics of scale and could provide it at relatively cheap 249 00:15:55.954 --> 00:15:59.570 prices, especially in wholesale. 250 00:15:59.630 --> 00:16:03.230 But, yeah. So this is kind of we just 251 00:16:03.230 --> 00:16:06.865 tweaked it and said, okay, you know, let's let's try if we if we 252 00:16:06.865 --> 00:16:10.245 can place that as a more in the in the b to c market. 253 00:16:11.105 --> 00:16:14.520 Mhmm. I see. I see. And then at one 254 00:16:14.520 --> 00:16:18.120 point, you, you then went from 255 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:21.720 there. There was another very interesting jump when we talked 256 00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:25.475 before. He told me that you've been a then a social business 257 00:16:25.615 --> 00:16:29.395 consultant in Albania, and then somehow 258 00:16:29.455 --> 00:16:32.870 you went back to Austria. So it was Greece, Berlin, 259 00:16:32.870 --> 00:16:36.230 Albania, Austria. Yes. So 260 00:16:36.310 --> 00:16:40.035 Berlin. Yeah. Joe, I 261 00:16:40.035 --> 00:16:43.475 mean, in the meantime, like, like, somehow, like, in between there, I I kind of, 262 00:16:43.475 --> 00:16:45.895 like, finished my studies. And then, 263 00:16:48.520 --> 00:16:52.200 yeah, that that was it actually had been really interesting because, that 264 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:55.560 organization is called UNOS Social Business. UNOS had 265 00:16:55.560 --> 00:16:59.255 been, kind of one of my, my idols 266 00:16:59.394 --> 00:17:02.915 and influences. Who he he's the guy that won the 267 00:17:02.915 --> 00:17:06.510 Nobel Peace Prize in 2,006, with the with the 268 00:17:06.510 --> 00:17:10.290 Grameen Bank, kind of the concepts of the, microlending 269 00:17:10.670 --> 00:17:14.405 in, in Bangladesh originally. And 270 00:17:14.405 --> 00:17:18.185 then, kind of what he invented was a social business, kind of the idea of, 271 00:17:19.365 --> 00:17:22.825 you know, a business not, solely focused to generate 272 00:17:23.300 --> 00:17:26.840 monetary profits, but a business that is kind of focused 273 00:17:26.900 --> 00:17:30.740 on generating, social profits. Right? So 274 00:17:30.740 --> 00:17:34.345 that can be environmental or social. So that kind of that would be 275 00:17:34.485 --> 00:17:38.105 business orientated. So, also profit orientated, 276 00:17:38.404 --> 00:17:42.040 but these profits would be used to generate more impact. Yeah? So that's 277 00:17:42.040 --> 00:17:45.500 that's kind of the the, the idea and concept 278 00:17:45.560 --> 00:17:47.740 of, of Muhammad Yunus. 279 00:17:49.080 --> 00:17:52.745 And, Unosocial Business then was 280 00:17:52.745 --> 00:17:55.645 an organization that he cofounded together with, 281 00:17:56.265 --> 00:17:59.450 with, Saskia Bryson from, 282 00:18:00.390 --> 00:18:04.230 was a a BCG consultant, before. And what 283 00:18:04.230 --> 00:18:07.865 they did is they went to developing countries. They 284 00:18:07.865 --> 00:18:11.485 have different organizations in, I don't know, Uganda, Haiti, 285 00:18:12.985 --> 00:18:16.770 several places, and one of them being Albania. And what they 286 00:18:16.770 --> 00:18:19.350 did there is kind of they helped to to, 287 00:18:20.210 --> 00:18:23.895 incubate startups, we would say. Right? So it's kind of like a y 288 00:18:24.195 --> 00:18:27.015 c, but for kind of social orientated startups. 289 00:18:28.035 --> 00:18:31.660 And that was a super interesting time because, that 290 00:18:31.980 --> 00:18:35.340 this organization attracted super talented people. Right? So there 291 00:18:35.340 --> 00:18:39.040 were a lot of, like, Ivy League people, in the organization 292 00:18:39.260 --> 00:18:42.184 that, you know, came with these, 293 00:18:44.085 --> 00:18:47.304 these amazingly designed Excel 294 00:18:47.445 --> 00:18:51.210 finance sheets and and then kind of work 295 00:18:51.429 --> 00:18:54.730 on a very kind of, you know, in developing 296 00:18:54.789 --> 00:18:58.470 countries, like, with a with a knowledge set that 297 00:18:58.470 --> 00:19:01.655 these usually have no access to whatsoever. 298 00:19:02.275 --> 00:19:06.035 So we were helping kind of, like, local StartupRadio get off the ground. Right? 299 00:19:06.035 --> 00:19:09.560 So kind of applying, like, let's say, very 300 00:19:09.560 --> 00:19:12.940 elaborated skills, experience, and also network. 301 00:19:13.560 --> 00:19:17.295 They these organization, they they, you know, they receive donations 302 00:19:17.295 --> 00:19:21.135 from, you know, USAID. They're from, like, Richard 303 00:19:21.135 --> 00:19:24.909 Branson. That's kind of the, the network. And then kind 304 00:19:24.909 --> 00:19:28.289 of translating that to, you know, Albanian 305 00:19:28.909 --> 00:19:32.715 women knitting, what's 306 00:19:32.715 --> 00:19:36.255 it called? Carpets. 307 00:19:36.555 --> 00:19:39.835 Yeah? And then kind of, like, say, okay. So how do you get that from 308 00:19:39.835 --> 00:19:42.320 these very fine artisanal created, 309 00:19:43.340 --> 00:19:46.800 products, which they sell on local markets have 310 00:19:47.340 --> 00:19:50.985 very little value capture, even 311 00:19:50.985 --> 00:19:54.665 though it's kind of it's a very good, you know, it's it's a very good 312 00:19:54.665 --> 00:19:57.980 product. And then we were kind of helping. Okay. So how can we get that 313 00:19:58.059 --> 00:20:01.660 to make it a very exclusive thing to to have very good 314 00:20:01.660 --> 00:20:05.440 designers work on their designs, and then they have super high premium, 315 00:20:06.780 --> 00:20:10.585 carpets presented in in Paris at Big Fairs 316 00:20:10.585 --> 00:20:14.125 and so Joe and then generate profits kinda for that local regions, 317 00:20:14.345 --> 00:20:17.770 which would allow to actually, you know, build businesses and then, 318 00:20:17.770 --> 00:20:21.210 you know, yeah, let, like, whole 319 00:20:21.210 --> 00:20:24.730 ecosystem is developed. Right? So that that's kind of that was 320 00:20:24.730 --> 00:20:28.425 contest and context, and it was super inspiring for me to to 321 00:20:28.425 --> 00:20:32.184 work with the people and actually see what what impact can be generated. 322 00:20:32.184 --> 00:20:35.970 And, yeah. I mean, to the day, that's, it 323 00:20:35.970 --> 00:20:39.730 has been a real great experience, and I'm I'm very thankful 324 00:20:39.730 --> 00:20:43.495 for it. I can totally understand 325 00:20:43.495 --> 00:20:44.554 that. Not only, 326 00:20:46.934 --> 00:20:50.679 through helping people, but also to be able to travel and 327 00:20:50.679 --> 00:20:54.360 to network globally. That is something I also really 328 00:20:54.360 --> 00:20:58.125 cherish, that you also can do, for example, in consulting. Very, 329 00:20:58.125 --> 00:21:01.804 very good thing to do. Let us Joe get 330 00:21:01.804 --> 00:21:05.190 into, we talking for 20 minutes already. 331 00:21:05.490 --> 00:21:08.470 Let us Joe get into the loop, 332 00:21:09.169 --> 00:21:12.664 because I I do believe most people shoot it for this 333 00:21:12.664 --> 00:21:16.125 company, by the way, the fastest growing, company 334 00:21:16.345 --> 00:21:19.980 according to Feet in Austria in 335 00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:23.660 2022, 2023, and 2024 in a 336 00:21:23.660 --> 00:21:27.325 joint award of Statista and Financial Times. You've 337 00:21:27.325 --> 00:21:30.684 been in the top 3. Congratulations, by the way. And now tell 338 00:21:30.684 --> 00:21:34.125 us, how to set up a site like this? Just a bathroom. We are on 339 00:21:34.125 --> 00:21:36.220 Instagram, and you're an influencer. Yeah. 340 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:43.000 Yeah. It's actually it's it's, you know, it's not that Instagram gloomy as 341 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:46.685 it, as it might sound. Actually, so 342 00:21:46.685 --> 00:21:50.205 as you It is. But that's from my from my Instagram versus 343 00:21:50.205 --> 00:21:53.645 reality. Right? Yeah. So 344 00:21:53.645 --> 00:21:57.429 no. So actually, I had no touch point with with metals or kind 345 00:21:57.429 --> 00:22:00.570 of, let's say, the the physical world really, whatsoever. 346 00:22:01.585 --> 00:22:05.105 But at the same time, I I always was fascinated by kind of, you know, 347 00:22:05.105 --> 00:22:07.925 what what the Internet, allows you to do. 348 00:22:08.865 --> 00:22:12.470 And I met my now cofounder of yeah. That was 349 00:22:12.590 --> 00:22:14.690 it's kind of like 8 years ago from now. 350 00:22:16.190 --> 00:22:19.995 Alexander Schlick, who I met in in in Vienna. 351 00:22:20.294 --> 00:22:23.975 And he was, or still is owner of a scrapyard 352 00:22:23.975 --> 00:22:27.700 in in in Graz. Yeah? And so he was 353 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.799 working in that so before, I mean, he also university, then, 354 00:22:33.120 --> 00:22:36.740 finance in Asia, and then came back kind of to to work in the, 355 00:22:37.128 --> 00:22:40.617 in the family owned scrapyard. Worked there, 5 356 00:22:40.617 --> 00:22:44.250 years or Joe, and then said, yeah. I mean, this is, you know, I'm, 357 00:22:44.250 --> 00:22:48.010 like, I have scrap metal here. Everything I do, I sell to 1, 358 00:22:49.450 --> 00:22:53.130 big bigger scrap dealer, and, that that can't be 359 00:22:53.130 --> 00:22:56.795 it. Yeah? So and this is then kind of how he got into the 360 00:22:56.795 --> 00:22:59.675 market and and discover, you know, going to to to, 361 00:23:00.155 --> 00:23:03.840 international fairs for the market and just like how the 362 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:07.760 how relationship driven that market is and kind of, even though 363 00:23:07.760 --> 00:23:09.860 it's a it's a commodity market, how, 364 00:23:11.695 --> 00:23:15.455 yeah. Let's say, how how undeveloped that market and how 365 00:23:15.455 --> 00:23:19.294 inefficient it is. Yeah? And, yeah. So at 366 00:23:19.294 --> 00:23:22.870 that at that time, we met and said, 367 00:23:22.870 --> 00:23:26.630 okay. Here's a here's a potential. For me, it was kind of 368 00:23:26.630 --> 00:23:30.455 only the tick boxes. Okay. That's so it's recycling. We can do something that makes 369 00:23:30.455 --> 00:23:34.135 sense, something sustainable. And at the same time, it's a kind of it's 370 00:23:34.135 --> 00:23:36.475 a it's a market that has been untapped, 371 00:23:37.750 --> 00:23:41.550 from from digitalization, so Internet is doesn't play any 372 00:23:41.637 --> 00:23:45.105 Joe, in that industry, and at the same time, it's it's a it's a 373 00:23:45.105 --> 00:23:48.945 $600,000,000,000 industry. So that was the, kind of 374 00:23:48.945 --> 00:23:52.620 that was the initial starting point. I said, okay. You know, let's 375 00:23:52.620 --> 00:23:56.080 let's digitalize that. That was the, the first idea. 376 00:23:56.540 --> 00:23:59.520 And then we started actually with 377 00:24:00.175 --> 00:24:03.775 publishing scrap metal prices, something that is sounds 378 00:24:03.775 --> 00:24:07.535 sounds very easy. I mean, it is relatively easy to do, but it's 379 00:24:07.535 --> 00:24:11.130 also, something that that nobody did at that time. 380 00:24:12.150 --> 00:24:15.770 And that's great for commodity market. Transparent. 381 00:24:17.270 --> 00:24:20.275 You, helped in, 382 00:24:21.375 --> 00:24:24.895 getting information out there. Was that was that about 383 00:24:24.895 --> 00:24:28.620 right? Yeah. So in the Menninger, kind of, the we 384 00:24:28.620 --> 00:24:32.460 had the idea. Okay. Because we we StartupRadio with that, problem 385 00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:35.805 set from the, kind of from the scrap dealer perspective. 386 00:24:36.345 --> 00:24:39.625 And you have kind of you have always a supply constrained market. So you kind 387 00:24:39.625 --> 00:24:43.470 of you always want to have more material because that allows 388 00:24:43.470 --> 00:24:46.910 you to do more business. That's kind of the the initial idea. So then, what 389 00:24:46.910 --> 00:24:50.590 we actually did is we we, developed a web shop where 390 00:24:50.590 --> 00:24:54.395 people could sell a scrap metal. Right? So basically, they could sell scrap metal to 391 00:24:54.395 --> 00:24:58.155 us. We will publish prices. And then, obviously, the people 392 00:24:58.155 --> 00:25:01.649 come from all the regions and that kind of the next step was already okay. 393 00:25:01.649 --> 00:25:05.429 So let's not only do everything to Graz, kind of to that original 394 00:25:05.649 --> 00:25:09.105 scrap yard from my cofounder, But, you know, let's do it, 395 00:25:09.425 --> 00:25:13.205 to all the other, cities in the in in the DACH region as well. 396 00:25:13.825 --> 00:25:17.350 And then, kind of, we bootstrap that. And in this process, 397 00:25:17.649 --> 00:25:21.490 you know, you publish scrap metal prices. And publishing scrap metal prices 398 00:25:21.490 --> 00:25:24.545 is something that is that is 399 00:25:25.165 --> 00:25:28.845 new to this industry, and that is I mean, I just 400 00:25:28.845 --> 00:25:32.225 wanted to want to underline that. In a commodity market, 401 00:25:32.470 --> 00:25:36.310 they are usually very known for being very efficient 402 00:25:36.310 --> 00:25:39.955 markets. You say even commoditized. Right? So things are 403 00:25:39.955 --> 00:25:43.255 commoditized, which means you have a very efficient market. 404 00:25:44.035 --> 00:25:47.635 You usually have, exchanges where material are traded. You 405 00:25:47.635 --> 00:25:51.070 have you have several prices per seconds 406 00:25:51.290 --> 00:25:53.710 that are somewhat, accessible, 407 00:25:55.130 --> 00:25:58.875 and that that's not the case for for scrap metal. And we 408 00:25:58.875 --> 00:26:02.075 we have the situation that, you know, the people in the industry would say, would 409 00:26:02.075 --> 00:26:05.915 would call, are you crazy? You kind of you're educating the market. The people then 410 00:26:05.915 --> 00:26:09.210 know what the value of the material is, and you're destroying the market. Are you 411 00:26:09.210 --> 00:26:12.110 crazy doing that? And 412 00:26:13.049 --> 00:26:16.590 that's probably also one of the reasons why the why the scrap dealer is, 413 00:26:17.505 --> 00:26:20.165 has the image in the in the in the society, 414 00:26:21.665 --> 00:26:25.285 that that he mostly he, very little cheese, 415 00:26:26.600 --> 00:26:30.360 has. So yeah. And and then, I mean, it got to that 416 00:26:30.360 --> 00:26:34.154 point that even the the association was saying, you know, 417 00:26:34.154 --> 00:26:35.755 can we accuse them of, 418 00:26:39.515 --> 00:26:42.090 how's it called in English? Of 419 00:26:44.790 --> 00:26:48.470 publishing false information in the market. Yeah? Because they 420 00:26:48.470 --> 00:26:51.924 are publishing prices and kind of that's that's that's 421 00:26:51.924 --> 00:26:55.625 destroying the market. And, we had a we had a leaked, 422 00:26:56.005 --> 00:26:59.830 document from the, from a from an, 423 00:27:00.150 --> 00:27:03.750 association meeting. It says, no. Unfortunately, we cannot sue them because 424 00:27:03.750 --> 00:27:06.970 it's, the the prices are real and it's it's not illegal. 425 00:27:08.745 --> 00:27:12.585 So so, yeah. That that's kind of that 426 00:27:12.585 --> 00:27:16.350 has been the the the dynamics in the market. And, I 427 00:27:16.350 --> 00:27:19.630 mean, long story short, we are not kind of supplying to the scrap dealers that 428 00:27:19.630 --> 00:27:23.230 much anymore. We are not running the I mean, you still run the web shop, 429 00:27:23.230 --> 00:27:26.655 but it's kind of only a very small one digit percentage of our 430 00:27:26.655 --> 00:27:30.095 volumes. What we now most association still mad at 431 00:27:30.095 --> 00:27:33.695 you? I don't know. There has never been, like, an 432 00:27:33.695 --> 00:27:36.980 official dialogue on that. It's, I just found, 433 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:42.480 an an anecdote that is, that's kind of, like, 434 00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:45.975 metaphorical for the for the situation in the in the in the 435 00:27:45.975 --> 00:27:49.654 industry. And that I mean, at the same 436 00:27:49.654 --> 00:27:53.500 time, kind of the metal is the material that can be recycled at 437 00:27:53.500 --> 00:27:56.940 endless times. Right? So it's kind of it's a perfect material for the circular 438 00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:00.765 economy. And because it has a the value is so high, it's 439 00:28:00.765 --> 00:28:04.165 also the the circular economy that works the 440 00:28:04.165 --> 00:28:07.625 best. Yeah? So you I mean, you see also in the developing 441 00:28:07.924 --> 00:28:11.020 countries, the first informal job is is kind of the, 442 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:15.260 is the waste pickers. Right? The guys that that pick up the aluminum, 443 00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:19.434 the the iron from the streets. Yeah? And that make 444 00:28:19.595 --> 00:28:23.195 Return to cans here in Germany. Yeah. And, I mean, now it's 445 00:28:23.195 --> 00:28:26.850 called circular economy, but it but it's the that's kind of the the 446 00:28:26.850 --> 00:28:30.610 circular economy that has always been working, or working the best 447 00:28:30.610 --> 00:28:33.975 if you compare it to plastics or paper, or so where you have, where the 448 00:28:33.975 --> 00:28:37.735 value of the material is much lower and the economic incentive is 449 00:28:37.735 --> 00:28:41.095 not is not there, and that's, like, or not comparatively as 450 00:28:41.095 --> 00:28:43.559 high, as with the other materials. 451 00:28:44.500 --> 00:28:48.340 So actually, you know, the the scrap dealers would also have to be, have 452 00:28:48.340 --> 00:28:51.695 the potential to be called the the sustainability heroes of 453 00:28:51.695 --> 00:28:55.535 our, of our time. Right? But that's not at all kind 454 00:28:55.535 --> 00:28:59.350 of the the association of the the the imagination that we have 455 00:28:59.350 --> 00:29:02.630 when we when we think about this, this group of, 456 00:29:02.950 --> 00:29:03.450 entrepreneurs. 457 00:29:06.715 --> 00:29:10.395 Yeah. Nevertheless, long story short, so now, we actually 458 00:29:10.395 --> 00:29:14.155 deal with, kind of, mostly with, very large industrial players. 459 00:29:14.155 --> 00:29:17.680 Right? So automotive sector, electronic sector, 460 00:29:18.940 --> 00:29:22.560 like these type of of, yeah, large 461 00:29:22.700 --> 00:29:26.415 volume producers that produce kind of scrap on an ongoing 462 00:29:26.415 --> 00:29:30.255 basis. We we contract them with, with with longer 463 00:29:30.255 --> 00:29:34.090 term contracts. We know we help them to, first of all, increase 464 00:29:34.149 --> 00:29:37.590 their revenues. So kind of get more money for the scrap metal. But we also 465 00:29:37.590 --> 00:29:41.429 provide them with software that gives them, control about what's going 466 00:29:41.429 --> 00:29:44.985 on with the scrap metal. Yeah. Because that that's still something that's ongoing 467 00:29:45.684 --> 00:29:49.445 where it's hard to control because you have, like, changing volumes. You 468 00:29:49.445 --> 00:29:52.400 have always a time changing prices. You have, 469 00:29:52.860 --> 00:29:56.540 different materials, and then you have different locations, often time in 470 00:29:56.540 --> 00:30:00.300 different countries. And that's something that makes very hard, to manage 471 00:30:00.300 --> 00:30:04.115 and to control, And that's why we help them with, with software that 472 00:30:04.115 --> 00:30:07.715 we provide to them. And then kind of in the back, we have build a, 473 00:30:08.034 --> 00:30:11.750 a platform that allows us to understand, okay, where's the demand for what 474 00:30:11.750 --> 00:30:15.270 type of material? Yeah. So that's steel mills, that's, 475 00:30:15.590 --> 00:30:19.345 that's foundries, and all over Europe, Asia, 476 00:30:20.044 --> 00:30:23.645 some in Americas. And then what we do is kind of 477 00:30:23.645 --> 00:30:27.410 matchmaking and the actual settlement of the transaction. Yeah. So make sure 478 00:30:27.410 --> 00:30:30.710 material travels straight from the seller, from the manufacturer 479 00:30:31.490 --> 00:30:34.845 to the recycler. So the one that that remelds the 480 00:30:34.845 --> 00:30:38.605 material and kind of creates value out of it. Yeah. 481 00:30:38.605 --> 00:30:42.320 I would I would be interested. You've been talking about circular 482 00:30:42.539 --> 00:30:46.240 economy here. I was wondering how large 483 00:30:46.299 --> 00:30:49.279 are the circles? Meaning, does it make economical 484 00:30:49.815 --> 00:30:53.434 sense to ship all the stuff around in Europe, 485 00:30:53.655 --> 00:30:57.260 all around certain parts of Asia, all around North America, Or are 486 00:30:57.260 --> 00:31:01.040 there certain shipments even going from one continent to another 487 00:31:01.180 --> 00:31:04.845 because it's economically viable? Yeah. I mean, that that 488 00:31:04.845 --> 00:31:08.365 very much depends on the material itself, and also on the 489 00:31:08.365 --> 00:31:11.485 economic situations in the different, in the different, 490 00:31:11.805 --> 00:31:15.649 parts. Yeah. So, I 491 00:31:15.649 --> 00:31:19.409 mean, first of all, think about, like, one truck. Joe when I say one truck, 492 00:31:19.409 --> 00:31:22.945 it's roughly 25 tons. And then if you have, like, 493 00:31:22.945 --> 00:31:26.164 25 tons of iron, that's maybe has a value of, 494 00:31:27.505 --> 00:31:31.320 like €30,000, let's say. No. It's actually it's a bit 495 00:31:31.320 --> 00:31:34.760 less. But nevertheless, if you compare it to, 496 00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:39.174 if you compare it to to copper, which is 497 00:31:39.174 --> 00:31:43.014 now at, above €10,000 per ton, 498 00:31:43.014 --> 00:31:46.210 you are already at a quarter million €1,000,000 499 00:31:47.230 --> 00:31:50.990 in value per truck. Yeah? And then, if you compare kind of the the 500 00:31:50.990 --> 00:31:54.775 transport costs, so just from an economical standpoint, there 501 00:31:54.775 --> 00:31:58.535 is not so much of a difference if you if you transport it 502 00:31:58.535 --> 00:32:02.295 kind of from, let's say, France to Poland, or if you if you 503 00:32:02.295 --> 00:32:05.450 transport it from, you know, France to South Korea. 504 00:32:06.150 --> 00:32:09.910 So just to because the a lot of the sea 505 00:32:09.910 --> 00:32:13.555 containers, right, that come from Asia that, you know, ship us all the nice 506 00:32:13.555 --> 00:32:17.095 products, the the TVs, the computers, the 507 00:32:17.155 --> 00:32:20.850 BYDs. Now, so so, you know, they 508 00:32:20.850 --> 00:32:23.350 come like like fully utilized, 509 00:32:24.930 --> 00:32:25.430 huge, 510 00:32:28.370 --> 00:32:31.855 vessels and back, they are not so utilized. Right? So 511 00:32:31.855 --> 00:32:35.534 oftentimes, you have, like, empty containers. So that means kind of the freight 512 00:32:35.534 --> 00:32:39.240 from Europe to Asia, is, you know, at 513 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:42.520 times, it always changes. Right? And then you have kind of Suez Canal being blocked 514 00:32:42.520 --> 00:32:45.660 and, like, all these type of things. So it's not always the same, but, 515 00:32:47.515 --> 00:32:50.955 you know, it maybe cost 2 and a half €1,000 to to ship a 516 00:32:50.955 --> 00:32:54.255 container there. And then if if this if the if the 517 00:32:54.795 --> 00:32:58.550 freight from, let's say, France and Poland, what I said, is also gonna 518 00:32:58.550 --> 00:33:02.309 be around 1,500. So it's maybe 519 00:33:02.309 --> 00:33:05.745 €1,000 different, and then if you if you take that in 520 00:33:05.745 --> 00:33:09.285 relation to the to the value of the, of the good, 521 00:33:09.665 --> 00:33:12.085 it's not not such a high, 522 00:33:13.505 --> 00:33:17.200 impact. Yeah? So Mhmm. If there's a lot of economic growth, you 523 00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:21.040 know, if there's like, you know, the Indian economy now coming 524 00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:23.940 up, building a lot of infrastructure, building a lot of, 525 00:33:25.105 --> 00:33:27.605 you know, maybe grids, batteries, 526 00:33:29.985 --> 00:33:33.345 container terminals, like, all these things need metal. Yeah. So if 527 00:33:33.345 --> 00:33:37.090 there's generally more GDP growth, they have higher 528 00:33:37.090 --> 00:33:40.610 demand for materials. They pay higher prices. That's kind of the the 529 00:33:40.610 --> 00:33:43.245 general game in in world trade that's going on. 530 00:33:45.005 --> 00:33:48.765 For our American audience, 25 metric 531 00:33:48.765 --> 00:33:50.145 tons is around £50,000 532 00:33:52.289 --> 00:33:56.049 because all the people are asking, metric system. I hate that. 533 00:33:56.049 --> 00:33:58.070 I hate that. How much is that? 534 00:33:59.535 --> 00:34:03.295 Anyway, that is already interesting because 535 00:34:03.295 --> 00:34:06.975 you you've been saying you work with, that's something 536 00:34:06.975 --> 00:34:10.590 we've already, hammered out Before we discussed, 537 00:34:10.889 --> 00:34:14.270 you work with certain manufacturers to really 538 00:34:14.570 --> 00:34:18.154 get their scrap. You you're not buying it basically from junk yards 539 00:34:18.154 --> 00:34:21.835 anymore. You buy it from the people who produce it, have steady contracts, 540 00:34:21.835 --> 00:34:25.534 and then have on the other side, for example, meals, 541 00:34:26.270 --> 00:34:30.110 that really do use it on a regular basis. So let's say 542 00:34:30.110 --> 00:34:33.550 there are some really stable circles evolved 543 00:34:33.550 --> 00:34:36.505 there. But on the other hand, you it did have, 544 00:34:37.285 --> 00:34:41.125 2 spectacular pieces that that you actually scrapped, 545 00:34:41.125 --> 00:34:44.645 you told me. 2 Airbus planes from the Belgian 546 00:34:44.645 --> 00:34:48.230 government, by the way, that's a picture that ended up on your LinkedIn profile. 547 00:34:48.230 --> 00:34:51.989 Right? And a power generator from the, atomic 548 00:34:51.989 --> 00:34:55.775 power plant in Mulheim, Karelis, but one that did 549 00:34:55.775 --> 00:34:59.455 not get any radiation. Yeah. I mean, 550 00:34:59.455 --> 00:35:03.200 that's the, that's also the the beauty of the 551 00:35:03.200 --> 00:35:06.400 scrap metal world. You kind of, let's say, you you you get to see a 552 00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:09.440 lot of things, that usually don't hit the, 553 00:35:10.635 --> 00:35:12.895 you know, come to, to block public. 554 00:35:14.075 --> 00:35:17.915 And yeah. I mean, funny enough, we have a lot 555 00:35:17.915 --> 00:35:21.730 of, we have a lot of businesses that, reach us and say, 556 00:35:21.730 --> 00:35:25.330 hey. I have something here to, that that needs to, you 557 00:35:25.330 --> 00:35:28.310 know, be demolished, that needs to be scrapped, and 558 00:35:30.234 --> 00:35:33.675 I need a price for it. Yeah. And since there is, kind of the 559 00:35:33.675 --> 00:35:37.355 normal way for that is I have some I have something that has to 560 00:35:37.470 --> 00:35:41.180 Joe. I I go for a or I Google for a local 561 00:35:41.180 --> 00:35:45.020 scrap dealer or a demolition company, and ask for a quote. Right? So 562 00:35:45.020 --> 00:35:48.724 that's the and then you ask, for 3 quotes, and that's how you 563 00:35:48.724 --> 00:35:52.505 kind of have the idea of I have a fair market, statement. 564 00:35:52.964 --> 00:35:56.349 And now, kinda, we also come into the equation and that's over 565 00:35:56.349 --> 00:36:00.030 regionally. So kind of not only the regional offering, but, you know, okay. 566 00:36:00.030 --> 00:36:03.710 Let's also ask METALU. And then we also give an offer. Yeah? 567 00:36:03.710 --> 00:36:07.224 And, the good thing is kind of we have kind of more direct 568 00:36:07.224 --> 00:36:11.065 ways, and we bring kind of large volume to the, to 569 00:36:11.065 --> 00:36:14.900 the end consumers of the, of the scrap metal, which allows us 570 00:36:14.900 --> 00:36:18.339 to get better pricing conditions, which we can also partially forward to 571 00:36:18.339 --> 00:36:21.480 our, to our sellers. Yeah? 572 00:36:22.795 --> 00:36:26.555 But this is this way, we kind of we get some some really interesting 573 00:36:26.555 --> 00:36:30.095 inbound, requests for, 574 00:36:30.635 --> 00:36:34.349 for for quotes. And, yeah, one of them had 575 00:36:34.349 --> 00:36:37.710 been to Airbus planes actually at, at Brussels 576 00:36:37.710 --> 00:36:41.385 Airport. And, yeah, it it turned 577 00:36:41.385 --> 00:36:45.065 out in the end, it was the Belgium government plans that 578 00:36:45.065 --> 00:36:48.744 used to fly, then they had huge issues. And at some point, they couldn't fly 579 00:36:48.744 --> 00:36:52.480 anymore. When we scrap them, the engines and so on were already 580 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.859 gone. So there was kind of this, like, process process of, 581 00:36:56.319 --> 00:36:59.895 okay, what can we resell as parts, actually? Right? So that, you know, the 582 00:36:59.895 --> 00:37:03.655 engines are the the most valuable part, but I think they 583 00:37:03.655 --> 00:37:07.095 even had the seats taken out and, all these 584 00:37:07.095 --> 00:37:10.890 things. But, yeah. Then I saw these these planes there. We 585 00:37:10.890 --> 00:37:14.490 already ordered a photograph there because we said, okay, that's that's gonna be a good 586 00:37:14.490 --> 00:37:18.214 opportunity to take some nice pictures. And I was just 587 00:37:18.355 --> 00:37:22.194 quickly thinking, okay. Am I gonna now, like, actually climb on that plane to, 588 00:37:22.194 --> 00:37:25.095 like, to take the picture and said, okay. That's a once in a life opportunity 589 00:37:25.154 --> 00:37:28.940 I've, like, now or never. And then I said, yeah. Okay. You know, this 590 00:37:28.940 --> 00:37:31.920 was like fit my next trivia question. How did you get up there? 591 00:37:32.755 --> 00:37:36.515 Yeah. Actually, I found a letter somewhere, and then I actually also I I 592 00:37:36.515 --> 00:37:40.170 put on my suit. I had a I thought, okay. Maybe I take my 593 00:37:40.170 --> 00:37:43.770 suit or not. And then, yeah, I just like on the place there, I just 594 00:37:43.770 --> 00:37:47.450 got changed and said, okay, let's climb up there. It wasn't 595 00:37:47.609 --> 00:37:51.285 because it's quite high up actually. Right? So let's see. It was a bit 596 00:37:51.285 --> 00:37:55.045 scary that but yeah, if you kind of stay right at the top, 597 00:37:55.045 --> 00:37:58.579 then you kind of you don't slip down. And I said, okay. You 598 00:37:58.579 --> 00:38:02.280 know, let's, let's let's do it. 599 00:38:02.420 --> 00:38:06.174 And then they were already because the runway is actually direct next to it. It 600 00:38:06.174 --> 00:38:09.855 was kind of it was on a, let's say, airplane parking 601 00:38:09.855 --> 00:38:13.599 lot next to the, next to the runway. You saw the the plates 602 00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:17.440 already always taken off next to me, and that already got 603 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:21.145 some attention from the from the airport where then the the officials 604 00:38:21.145 --> 00:38:24.665 were taking photos and asking whether it's, like, it's all correct. What's going on 605 00:38:24.665 --> 00:38:27.405 there? Yeah. 606 00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:31.220 Okay. I see. We we already in Brussels. 607 00:38:32.160 --> 00:38:35.760 Mark, talking about market dynamics. Do you foresee any 608 00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:39.325 changes in the EU regulations around recycling 609 00:38:40.025 --> 00:38:42.365 impacting your business model and your markets? 610 00:38:45.490 --> 00:38:49.030 Yeah. Joe, I mean, in general, the unfortunately, 611 00:38:49.410 --> 00:38:53.015 it it's this market is not harmonized in the EU. Right? So it's it's a 612 00:38:53.015 --> 00:38:56.855 bit of a hassle for us in each country that we are operative 613 00:38:56.855 --> 00:39:00.530 in. We kind of have to check, okay, what is the environmental legislation 614 00:39:00.589 --> 00:39:03.710 here? You know, you have to get the permits. You have to kind of do, 615 00:39:03.710 --> 00:39:07.445 oftentimes, the reporting. It's, let's say, from a market 616 00:39:07.525 --> 00:39:10.405 perspective, it's a bit annoying. I mean, of course, it helps us kind of to 617 00:39:10.405 --> 00:39:13.625 to build up entry barriers, but, yeah, would appreciate 618 00:39:14.085 --> 00:39:17.560 rather appreciate if if we didn't have them, and we would have actually one 619 00:39:17.560 --> 00:39:21.240 unified market in that, yeah, in the in the 620 00:39:21.240 --> 00:39:25.065 waste regime as well. Changes, I mean, 621 00:39:25.065 --> 00:39:28.424 there's there's a there are a lot of talks of, kind 622 00:39:28.424 --> 00:39:32.265 of, regulating exports of, 623 00:39:32.905 --> 00:39:36.290 of waste from from EU. The EU says, okay, 624 00:39:36.750 --> 00:39:40.590 I mean, meth and scrap is actually defined as a waste, even though it's 625 00:39:40.590 --> 00:39:43.905 it's considered as a as a resource now by everyone. So, 626 00:39:45.505 --> 00:39:49.265 yeah. There are a lot of talks of actually banning exports. So 627 00:39:49.265 --> 00:39:52.625 far, it's it's, it's not happening. Might be a smart thing to 628 00:39:52.625 --> 00:39:56.339 do because, I mean, in the end, everybody knows it. 629 00:39:56.339 --> 00:39:59.940 We don't have raw materials, and we don't 630 00:40:00.099 --> 00:40:03.675 I mean, we we need it. We need to recycle it. At the same time, 631 00:40:03.675 --> 00:40:07.055 you know, Europe is also not, in all the cases, 632 00:40:07.115 --> 00:40:10.940 very, very competitive. So just just banning 633 00:40:10.940 --> 00:40:14.640 it also doesn't, maybe maybe doesn't cut it because 634 00:40:14.859 --> 00:40:17.819 in the end, you still need the smelters that still need to be able to 635 00:40:17.819 --> 00:40:21.545 pay the energy bill, which is also very high in Europe, and 636 00:40:21.545 --> 00:40:25.145 then, to produce a commodity in the end that also is being 637 00:40:25.145 --> 00:40:28.890 exported in some cases. So, yeah. It's it's a it's a 638 00:40:28.890 --> 00:40:32.570 complicated topic, not that easy. And, I 639 00:40:32.570 --> 00:40:36.375 mean, in the end for us, you know, we just we have to deal with 640 00:40:36.375 --> 00:40:40.135 whatever comes. So so it's the I don't spend too much time 641 00:40:40.135 --> 00:40:42.475 on the on the regulation topic because 642 00:40:44.350 --> 00:40:48.190 it's, you know, we have to deal with whatever it is. We wanna build up, 643 00:40:48.910 --> 00:40:52.430 a global impact company, so it's it's not gonna, you 644 00:40:52.430 --> 00:40:56.251 know, it's not gonna have too much impact. Yeah. I know Joe 645 00:40:56.434 --> 00:41:00.275 we can deal with with whatever outcome it's gonna be. We are agile. We 646 00:41:00.275 --> 00:41:04.000 don't have kind of any physical assets that are being 647 00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:07.599 effective. So, you know, we if needed, we can, you know, 648 00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:11.405 stay in the region. We can move out of the region, and 649 00:41:11.405 --> 00:41:15.025 have kind of, like, separate business units. We we can adopt. 650 00:41:17.325 --> 00:41:21.025 I was wondering, revenue streams. I do understand 651 00:41:21.390 --> 00:41:25.230 you make money from logistics, transporting the stuff, helping 652 00:41:25.230 --> 00:41:29.070 to organize transporting because my understanding is you're 653 00:41:29.070 --> 00:41:32.125 asset light company. You don't own any 654 00:41:32.665 --> 00:41:36.345 of the, inventory. You don't own any of 655 00:41:36.345 --> 00:41:39.910 the StartupRadio. And you don't own any of the, 656 00:41:40.150 --> 00:41:43.990 logistics entities, that ship or drive or 657 00:41:43.990 --> 00:41:47.575 do something or even fly these 658 00:41:47.575 --> 00:41:51.015 over. I was wondering what are like your your may 659 00:41:51.255 --> 00:41:54.900 your primary revenue streams? Do you make most money 660 00:41:54.900 --> 00:41:58.500 from the fees, from the financing, or logistics? Because you support your 661 00:41:58.500 --> 00:42:02.235 clients in all 3 of them. Yeah. So, I mean, for us, these 662 00:42:02.235 --> 00:42:06.075 are all, let's say, indirect revenue streams. So our 663 00:42:06.075 --> 00:42:09.675 business model is actually is a is a merchant of record business model. So that 664 00:42:09.675 --> 00:42:13.510 means we come we become actually contractual partners, both to the 665 00:42:13.510 --> 00:42:17.350 sellers as to the buyers. So, you know, the the material also goes through 666 00:42:17.350 --> 00:42:20.905 our balance sheet. And then so to the 667 00:42:20.905 --> 00:42:24.744 sellers, we usually quote, you know, picked up. So kind of we pay 668 00:42:24.825 --> 00:42:28.330 let's say, we pay them a 100 picked up at their place, and 669 00:42:28.330 --> 00:42:31.770 then we, you know, we sell it somewhere where we where we get a bit 670 00:42:31.770 --> 00:42:35.265 more than a 100. Let's say, so we get a we get 671 00:42:35.265 --> 00:42:38.325 a 110 somewhere else or a 105, 672 00:42:38.625 --> 00:42:42.465 yeah, delivered to another place. And then 673 00:42:42.465 --> 00:42:45.430 kind of with that with that delta, we have to pay, 674 00:42:46.289 --> 00:42:50.069 we have to pay the the transport. We have to pay, 675 00:42:50.450 --> 00:42:54.275 financing because usually, I mean, we give our buyers option whether 676 00:42:54.275 --> 00:42:58.115 they pay directly or whether they pay after 30 days, after 60 days. And 677 00:42:58.115 --> 00:43:01.760 of course, that means we are kinda we are financing them and that that also 678 00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:05.440 costs something. So, that's but it's in the end, 679 00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:09.200 it's all priced into the into the price of the product 680 00:43:09.200 --> 00:43:10.805 itself for the material. 681 00:43:13.345 --> 00:43:16.224 I see. How 682 00:43:16.865 --> 00:43:20.520 since you guys don't do a lot of 683 00:43:20.520 --> 00:43:24.360 physical work, I would say there's, not necessarily 684 00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:25.820 a hard limit to your scalability. 685 00:43:31.405 --> 00:43:34.109 Yeah. Joe, I mean, yes. In generally, yes. 686 00:43:35.530 --> 00:43:39.230 The what what's limiting our scalability is actually basically 687 00:43:39.369 --> 00:43:43.185 our execution capability. Yeah. Joe, I 688 00:43:43.185 --> 00:43:47.025 mean and and that's actually one of the biggest challenges because you have 689 00:43:47.025 --> 00:43:50.720 so many opportunities popping up. Right? You can Joe, like, 690 00:43:51.200 --> 00:43:54.720 there's so much thing that things that come on your desk, like, emails that you 691 00:43:54.720 --> 00:43:58.400 get off kind of, like, when you dive more into here 692 00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:02.065 or there, it's like and there's kind of so many connecting things, 693 00:44:02.065 --> 00:44:05.425 or let's say, things that are, let's say, close to what we 694 00:44:05.425 --> 00:44:09.150 do. And at the same time, you really have to have 695 00:44:09.150 --> 00:44:12.910 kind of the the the bigger goal in mind. And, the question 696 00:44:12.910 --> 00:44:15.595 is really what to focus on, because at the end of the day, the the 697 00:44:15.595 --> 00:44:19.355 day has only 24 hours. We only have something like 698 00:44:19.355 --> 00:44:22.335 60 people, and we we only have a limited, 699 00:44:23.434 --> 00:44:27.190 capital reserves. So this is where you kind of you have more 700 00:44:27.190 --> 00:44:30.870 of an allocation problem on, you know, what what do you spend time 701 00:44:30.870 --> 00:44:34.010 on, and what do you what do you where do you invest the, 702 00:44:34.655 --> 00:44:38.335 the capital. And then and that's kind of 703 00:44:38.335 --> 00:44:42.140 the the biggest limitation to the scalability, in my opinion, to 704 00:44:42.140 --> 00:44:45.660 really, that can only do one step after the another. 705 00:44:45.660 --> 00:44:49.260 Yeah. But just from the kind of from our business 706 00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:53.105 model, you know, we don't have any physical yards or 707 00:44:53.105 --> 00:44:56.325 trucks or anything. So this is like, we are quite, 708 00:44:57.825 --> 00:45:01.370 quite agile. At the same time, of course, you have network effects. Right? 709 00:45:01.370 --> 00:45:05.050 So, you know, you you build up relationships with your sellers, with the 710 00:45:05.050 --> 00:45:08.665 buyers, a huge usually, you know, larger companies. 711 00:45:08.885 --> 00:45:12.645 So, you know, once you get deeper in there, it'll it opens up more 712 00:45:12.645 --> 00:45:16.430 opportunities and, you know, you have, yeah, 713 00:45:16.430 --> 00:45:19.869 you have network effects from, let's say, intensifying that, 714 00:45:20.190 --> 00:45:23.329 these relationships and, doing more of 715 00:45:23.925 --> 00:45:26.425 of of what we're already doing. So that's, 716 00:45:28.085 --> 00:45:31.925 not not necessarily a limitation, but kind of, you know, it suggests to go deeper 717 00:45:31.925 --> 00:45:35.640 in there and and it kind of helps you to build network effects and 718 00:45:35.640 --> 00:45:39.320 also entry barriers. I did 719 00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:43.194 I would have a lot more question, but I'm already teasing 720 00:45:43.194 --> 00:45:46.555 you for more than 45 minutes straight recording time 721 00:45:46.555 --> 00:45:50.095 already. Really thankful for that. Thank you very much. 722 00:45:50.710 --> 00:45:54.089 I would like to close with, the 2 standard question. 723 00:45:54.550 --> 00:45:58.070 Question number 1, future funding. You just 724 00:45:58.070 --> 00:46:01.635 raised a, the largest European 725 00:46:01.935 --> 00:46:04.515 investment for steel scrap, 726 00:46:05.935 --> 00:46:09.680 €16,000,000 in a series a funding altogether. 727 00:46:09.680 --> 00:46:13.520 You raised, more than €18,000,000 according to Crunchbase, but 728 00:46:13.520 --> 00:46:17.045 you told me there's also some EU money involved. So it's 729 00:46:17.045 --> 00:46:20.725 rather more on the €20,000,000 side. Would 730 00:46:20.725 --> 00:46:24.000 you guys be open to talk to new investors 731 00:46:24.380 --> 00:46:28.060 getting into the the, into your investor crowd 732 00:46:28.060 --> 00:46:31.500 like StartupRadio Ventures, FJ Labs, Firstmark from New 733 00:46:31.500 --> 00:46:35.215 York, and Cylance VC. Yeah. 734 00:46:35.595 --> 00:46:39.115 So at that time, it was that that was 735 00:46:39.115 --> 00:46:42.609 probably the headline from, like, some steel related publication. 736 00:46:42.990 --> 00:46:46.609 But, yeah, it was actually, I think, the largest European, 737 00:46:48.030 --> 00:46:51.825 funding round for, for any, like, recycling, or 738 00:46:51.825 --> 00:46:54.245 let's say, software or Internet related 739 00:46:55.265 --> 00:46:59.025 recycling business. So it's even larger. And that's actually very sad because, I mean, 740 00:46:59.025 --> 00:47:01.410 first of all, like, 60,000,000 is also not that much. 741 00:47:02.849 --> 00:47:06.289 And, Europe is kind of, these claims to be at the 742 00:47:06.289 --> 00:47:09.645 forefront of, let's say, recycling 743 00:47:09.865 --> 00:47:13.705 and, and climate tech. So good news in the 744 00:47:13.705 --> 00:47:17.390 meantime. I think, SILIP, they they 745 00:47:17.390 --> 00:47:20.930 raised, 55,000,000 series a for battery 746 00:47:20.990 --> 00:47:24.750 recycling. So finally, we have, that that we also see 747 00:47:24.750 --> 00:47:28.105 progress there. Back to your question. 748 00:47:28.965 --> 00:47:32.325 Yeah. I mean, we are still focused on and and and hats down 749 00:47:32.325 --> 00:47:35.920 on, you know, actually executing with the, 750 00:47:36.240 --> 00:47:39.940 with the funding that we received. But, yes, 751 00:47:40.345 --> 00:47:43.964 we are also we are also, let's say, not not yet planning, 752 00:47:44.744 --> 00:47:47.805 also not considering, but, you know, 753 00:47:48.570 --> 00:47:52.170 we have a gigantic market. We have still, let's say, a lot to 754 00:47:52.170 --> 00:47:55.965 tackle and to figure out. And, so, yeah, we are 755 00:47:55.965 --> 00:47:59.725 considering to, to raise more further, for further on 756 00:47:59.725 --> 00:48:02.785 as well. Well, every every investor 757 00:48:03.580 --> 00:48:07.340 interested and listening to this down here in the show notes, wherever 758 00:48:07.340 --> 00:48:11.180 you're listening to this, wherever you're watching this, there will be 759 00:48:11.180 --> 00:48:14.815 a link to your LinkedIn profile, and people can reach out to you. 760 00:48:14.815 --> 00:48:18.494 And to the second or last question, of course, as always, are you looking 761 00:48:18.494 --> 00:48:19.795 for talented people? 762 00:48:22.140 --> 00:48:25.900 Yes. Of course. Always. Always. I 763 00:48:25.900 --> 00:48:29.615 I suggest we just link down here your 764 00:48:29.615 --> 00:48:33.155 career website, which you may have to share with me 765 00:48:33.375 --> 00:48:37.135 soon. And then we should be totally fine and everybody can look 766 00:48:37.135 --> 00:48:40.830 up all the jobs you have on offer because people are 767 00:48:40.830 --> 00:48:44.589 listening to this interview for the next few years, and I 768 00:48:44.589 --> 00:48:47.994 don't think we should discuss, single positions 769 00:48:47.994 --> 00:48:51.355 there. Mhmm. Sounds 770 00:48:51.355 --> 00:48:54.960 good? Sounds good. Thank you very much for the invite, John. 771 00:48:55.099 --> 00:48:57.440 How do you say goodbye in in cards? 772 00:48:58.540 --> 00:49:02.125 Baba. Baba? Great. Okay. 773 00:49:02.825 --> 00:49:06.505 With with a papa, I'll leave you to to the rest of your work 774 00:49:06.505 --> 00:49:10.000 day. Thank you very much, Jan. It was pleasure having you as guest. Thanks, 775 00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:13.680 Joe. It's been, really fun. Have a good day. Have a good 776 00:49:13.680 --> 00:49:15.620 day. Bye bye. Bye.