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Not Made For You: How Women Win at Work w/ Kae Williams · Leadership From The Heart | Transformational Leadership Insights

• Romie Montpeirous: Hi everybody and welcome back to another episode of Leadership From The Heart. Today I have with us Kay Williams. is a global software marketing executive, coach, speaker, and soon to be, if not already, an author of Made For You. With over 30 years of experience rising from telemarketer to CMO in a dominated industry, which we could talk a lot about, Kay is on a mission to help women thrive in systems that have never been built for them in Through her personal stories of navigating and challenging biases, microaggressions and exclusion, she empowers women to lead with authenticity, advocate for themselves and to create an inclusive work experience that we all deserve. Kay, welcome to the show. How are you? Kae: I'm well, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm looking forward to our conversation, Romy. Romie Montpeirous: Absolutely same, same. I would love to start with the book that we just talked about, Not Made For You. what made you choose this title? Because it's pretty powerful. Kae: Yes, it is powerful. I chose the title based on a conversation that I was having while I was writing the book. And it was actually with my niece. And we were discussing, I talked to lot of women over the years about this topic. And we were discussing the idea of trying to fit in and it not working. And ⁓ that was... Romie Montpeirous: Mm. Mm-hmm. Kae: That's what got me really started thinking about this system that we keep trying to fit into. And that's where the not made for you came from, from that conversation. Romie Montpeirous: what, I would love to keep going into that because what does not made for you tell you? Like what does it mean to you? Kae: It means that there's systems that we've been, boy, I know for me, I've been doing this for 30 years. I've been trying to fit into this system for a while, or I was trying to. And then I recognized that there's this pattern that kept happening no matter what company or what department I was working in. So it wasn't that company. I recognized it was a system. And when I really started to think about that, it was a system that was built many ago, had nothing to do with us, but it was built. by men for men. they are, they get the advantage of that system and we do not. And so, you know, I, that's, know, the importance to me of this system is that we have to recognize it for what it is, because a lot of times we have self doubt. We think I have so many women who have read my book and said, you know, I always thought it was me. Like, what was I doing wrong? Why wasn't I communicating the right way, the way they wanted me to, or they keep telling me I'm not strategic. or I'm not ready. And it was this system that was built through a very biased lens, which was again for men. And it hasn't caught up. That system has not evolved with our culture and what we see, the diversity that we see in the corporate world. Romie Montpeirous: Yeah, think the evolution part of it not having caught up yet is I think you hit the nail on the head there because, know, I don't, well, I do think that it was built that way on purpose, but I don't think it was built that way. At least my lens wasn't necessarily to exclude women, although were never part of the equation because we weren't working at the time, right? We were at home. Kae: That's right. Romie Montpeirous: And now that we are working and included, they just haven't figured out just like medicine, right? Like medicine was all built for men and tested on men and never on women. And now we're realizing like, shit, maybe, maybe their bodies do act different. ⁓ I love that. I like, I really liked that, that lens that you're bringing. Like it's not that you're excluded. It's just that they never built it with you in mind, which is very cool. ⁓ Kae: Right, yes, exactly. Yes, and I think it's important for women to recognize women and other people. It's not just women, right? There's a lot of people color, men of color that have read the book or I've talked to about and said, I have the same experiences as women, right? So it's anybody who's been othered any marginalized group. But I think we have to recognize it for what it is because we're struggling to fit in and get our ⁓ Romie Montpeirous: off the course. Mm-hmm. Kae: advancements and promotions through the same way that these men do. it doesn't work. And so a lot of women get dismayed and they actually leave these industries and they start their own businesses, but we need women in these industries helping build products for all of us, right? And so that's why I really want to get the message out to help. There are strategies that we can employ to be successful. ⁓ despite these systems. Romie Montpeirous: Yeah. And not to give your book away, but what is the strategy if you had to pick one, what would the one be that you would give the audience? Kae: It's to recognize the bias, because it can be quite subtle and it happens frequently. Recognize what it is. And the book gives examples. That's why I tell my stories and other people's stories. So you can see how it may show up for you at work, because sometimes it's so subtle. We don't recognize it or we don't recognize how important it is and how it's discrediting us in rooms. And so I say, it, name it. Romie Montpeirous: Mm. Kae: and then address it. Romie Montpeirous: Mmm. That's good. That's really good. And so you came from the, you know, they're all male dominating industries. At least most of them are of telemarketing to CMO. What defining moment in your journey tested you the most and shaped you into like what you are today or who you are today. Kae: There isn't one. it was this pattern that I started to recognize. I mean, you get all these slights, right? ⁓ make sure you smile or you're not ready. You're not strategic enough or there's a lot of microaggressions and we can talk about those that I certainly face as a woman of color in this So there was not just one defining moment for me. It was a pattern that I saw over and over. But I think it started, I started to that what I was seeing, the people that were getting promoted and the, the, the story that was being told of they got promoted didn't match with the evidence. Right. So that they were performing at a better or they had better results than I did, or they were more strategic than I was or other people that I've noticed. So that wasn't matching up for me. And that happened over and over again. And so that was when I started to realize something's amiss here. how do I am very ambitious how do I still have a successful career. So I started to employ different strategies. And I do talk about those in the book and happy to talk about them here. But started to employ different strategies or test them to see how can I work around some of these barriers so that I can still have a career and enjoy the work that I'm doing. Romie Montpeirous: It's the game, right? And it's the game. like, you know, to, people all the time, because, know, as a woman of color as well, like people are always like, you know, they ask the same questions that we always get asked. And I said, it's just a game guys. If you learn the rules, ⁓ you go as far as you want because you're in the game, you know, and you're not to your point of like, Kae: It is. Romie Montpeirous: We're not trying to fit in the game, but we're going to be a player for sure. Right? Like you're not a pawn anymore. You're going to be a player. And I think that that's when people realize that. And I'm so glad you wrote this book. It's like you get to see the rules and now you have the cheat codes, you know, cause you can move according to how they're moving. And, and you're almost a little bit more intelligent because you have like the inside story on it. Kae: Yes, that's right. Yes. And I love that you say it's a game because for me now, and certainly not when I was younger and starting my career, affects you differently, I think, than when you are, ⁓ as you move up in your career or in of experience, and certainly as you start to recognize the bias, but it is a bit of a game. And for me, I love a room. Romie Montpeirous: 100%. Kae: I find that quite fascinating. And it is one of the skills and the strategies that I talk about in the book is you have to learn to read a room. And so I love sitting in a meeting and like, who's the one that's getting talked over? Who's the one that everybody's listening to? And it's not always highest title either, right? ⁓ yeah, we have, those are the things that we have to start recognizing. And it is just business or it is just a game. Romie Montpeirous: Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Kae: And if you think of it that way, you can take the emotions out, but then you can still respond and, you know, articulate your boundaries when it's required without having all that emotion behind it. Romie Montpeirous: No. Right. And I, if we're being honest, right, I think that that's the piece that the men dominant, the male dominated industries, they, have a hard time of, I don't want to say accepting, but it's, it's tough for them as well because they, emotions are, ⁓ looked at differently than ours, right? That's why women get called a bitch or we're aggressive or we're all these things where if a man said it, you'd be like, yeah, that's right. And I think that when we have it, ⁓ there's much behind the woman the workplace and how we come across. And I think that they too have a hard time accepting our emotions when we have them. Kae: Yes. Romie Montpeirous: and they don't know where to put it. They want to fix you so that you can go do your thing or it triggers them in a way. so I think sides have so much to learn. And I think that men and woman dynamic in workplace could be a beautiful dynamic if both accept what it is and their role. Kae: And I've experienced that, right? So, which is nice. So that gives me hope, right? I've experienced for the first time, it was one company ago, I experienced where there were equal men and women. Actually, at first there were equal men and women on the executive team. Now, typically I'm the only female on executive team for most of my career, but this was equal men and women. And then at one point it was more women than men. Romie Montpeirous: Okay. Kae: And I recognize that they start to work, all this is just exposure. As they start to work with you and get to know you, they started to respect ⁓ our and skill and expertise in our departments. And it was a beautiful thing. We all still keep in touch with each other because we know it was special. We know it was special. And so, you know, I say to men is that, Romie Montpeirous: and trust you. Yes. Exactly. was magic. Kae: have to understand that we, our work experience is very different than theirs. Ours comes with a lot of emotional toll past experiences and current ones that are happening on a daily basis in these rooms. And it's not, we don't get just to come to the room and talk strategy and make a decision. We're thinking about, it for me to speak? What should I say? ⁓ Romie Montpeirous: Hmm. Kae: How is it going to be interpreted? We have all these things we're thinking, not just what we're going to say or just sharing our ideas openly. There's a lot more behind our thoughts than I believe men have. They can come in, they have immediate credibility in the room, they say something and everyone's like, that's amazing. When we say something, they're like, maybe. John, what do you think? Right? So it's always that slight. that takes a lot emotional toll on us, aside from the work have to do at home or the responsibilities we have at home as mothers. I am not a mother, but I've seen, I've worked with a lot of women who are moms and I have sisters who ⁓ are working There's a lot of responsibility that they have outside of work. And it's not like they can just drop it. when they come into the door, into the office door, right? That's still on their mind. Not that men don't have that as well, but we have that plus everything else that's happening in the room. Romie Montpeirous: Yeah, yeah. And the, you you just mentioned when a woman says something and then the men check with the men to see what they think. You know, that's a real thing and it could, if let it, diminish what you think you just said instead of standing on it, you know? And I love that you brought that up because, you know, those are the small ways that they don't even realize. They don't even realize most of them, some of them do and they're doing it Yeah. And, know, just, if, if, so in the company that I work for, we have like a ⁓ women's program it's not just for women. Like they invite executive men into the room because it's going to take both of us to acknowledge and to realize. the men in the room were shocked at the stories, at the... Kae: Some of them do. Yes, sure. Yes. Romie Montpeirous: Like they had no idea. to me, that's what opened my eyes years ago, that it's just a lack of awareness and care, right? Because you have to be, once you're aware, you have to add the care, you know? But it ⁓ a really good, for me, you lesson to see, they don't even, it's not even their reality what goes, what we go through. Kae: Right. And why would it be? Because it's not happening to them, right? I mean, that's the thing. I love that the women's group that you work in, that they invited the men in, because that's something that I'm trying to do when I'm speaking, is getting men in those rooms as well so they can understand. Because I do think the majority of men, when they recognize it or they're told about it, I think they really will try hard to behave differently. Not that they're going to slip up, but they will try hard to behave differently. One of the things that I say when we have to advocate for ourselves, like we said, we're saying something in a room or have an idea and somebody else has to validate that idea all the time, you should go speak to that person who's asking the other person and say, I'm not sure if you're aware, but every time you ask me something and I give you a response, you and validate it with Jeff. Why is that? ⁓ Romie Montpeirous: Mm-hmm. Yes. Kae: It's important to ask that question because they may say, well, I needed more data or they had more experience in this. And it may be valid feedback or it may not be. And if they say, no, I don't do that. You should say, yes, you do. And here's when you did it. And I'd really appreciate it if we, you and I engaged the same way you engage with Jeff. Because if you don't say that you are being devalued in that room, somebody else is taking your ideas. And when it comes time for promotion, person who's getting the promotion is the ones that they believe had the ideas in that room, and that was Jeff, not me. So we can't let those things go. how you handle it. It's always professional. It's always calm. And it's just a matter of building awareness, bringing awareness to them. They may not right away, but they're going to be aware of what they did, unless they're purposely doing it. That's a different situation. Romie Montpeirous: Yeah. Kae: For most men, it is not on purpose. don't. Romie Montpeirous: I agree with that statement, 100%. And I agree, calling it out in such a strategic way is the money is, because you're right. ⁓ He one of two answers, either Jeff has more data or I don't even know that I'm doing that, but like, thanks for letting me know, ⁓ know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kae: Yeah. Yes. And there could be an immediate denial of it because they might be embarrassed or whatever and let them deny. Romie Montpeirous: Exactly. That air denial does not diminish what your truth is. Kae: No, and what you just said, you still state what you said, who cares if they deny it, just say, well, I just want you to know this is what you're doing and they can deny it all they want, right? And most people will feel really badly about it, I think. ⁓ Yes. Yes, not confronta... There's no reason to be confrontational about any of these unless it keeps getting repeated. Then I'd get a little bit more direct. Romie Montpeirous: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, if you do it correctly, right? Like in a private calm, like you said. Yeah, agreed, agreed. What is the lie that we often tell women about how to succeed in these environments? I know you've through, I'm sure, ageism, microaggressions, there's sexism, there's all the things. And I would love to know your thoughts on the lie that we tell women that that's what it takes to successful. ⁓ Kae: Yes. So if we think about, get out of school, high school, college or whatever, and we're ambitious and we're really excited to start our careers. We're really excited just to make money, frankly, because we're so poor from going to college for the ones. I remember that going, I cannot wait to get a job. Little did I know. ⁓ And so we're very excited. And I think as women of color, I know my father told me you're a black person and you're woman. Romie Montpeirous: Hahaha! you Kae: you have to work twice as hard. And he told me and my sister's that. I had some expectation of it being harder, but I didn't have the understanding how frequent frequently would happen. And I think a lot of women go into these jobs thinking, here's the lie that you can go into the job and just work hard and the promotions will come. But that's not what drives promotions. It's influence and visibility. And in these systems, the men have the advantage there because they are sponsored and supported than women are. So that's the lie. And we have to understand what that looks like, how they get their influence and how do we get our influence? How do we build networks and relationships when we're not invited to those after work events where you get a little tidbit of information or you get to smooth with an influential person in the company or you get a special project, right? We're not always included in that. So how do we still build those relationships with the right people so we can get promoted as well? So that's where the lie is that you're just going to come in and you're going to do your job and you're going to work hard. don't have to deal with politics or any of those things. We're not recognizing that the definition of leadership has a filter. And the filter a bias. And bias is, if we think about a leader of a country, of a big corporation, we're going to think a white male. All of us are going to think that. And so businesses think as well. And we have to recognize those decisions about promotion or special project are typically going through that biased lens. And ⁓ how do we around that? Romie Montpeirous: Mm. Right. Yeah, so how do we get around that? Kae: So the way I've gotten around it I that I had to build relationships because I gonna always be invited to those after work events or that conversation about sports in the hallway that turns into a business conversation, right? And they're just casually conversing with each other because like people converse with and build relationships with people like them. Right? I mean, that's not uncommon. So what I started to do was, and I actually found that it works better. had to build relationships one-on-one with people at work. And I started doing it through collaborating and marketing. You have, I'm in marketing, so we have to collaborate with a lot of departments anyway, so it makes it easier. But I would start to build relationships different departments, different people, different levels. Doesn't matter. Romie Montpeirous: Yes. Kae: but certainly the influential ones as well. And saying, look, I'm working on this project. I need your help or your team's help or, hey, you I'd love to run this by you, get your idea. And I started to build rapport with these people. And what I realized is the bias that they hold then about a woman or a woman of color gets diminished as they get to know me better. They start to see my work. They start to understand how I think. then they realized she is strategic. intelligent, whatever it is. And they start to advocate for you in rooms when you're not even there. Kay, Kay showed me this project she was working on. I think really important here in this conversation. Let's talk about it. Or maybe we should invite Kay into the next meeting and have her present that project. So that's the way I got around it, was building one-on-one relationships and breaking down that bias of of what women and how we work. Romie Montpeirous: Yeah. Yeah. I had the gift early on of being ignorant towards all of that. I had no idea that there were biases and that, that I was looked at a certain way. And so I was able, I'm a high collaborator naturally. thank God, because I do feel like I exactly what you said, because I was able to build relationships without the awareness of. ⁓ Kae: That's good. Romie Montpeirous: Are they looking at different? didn't know any of that. I remember the first time I was asked the question, I was just like, huh, you think they look at me different? And they're like, yeah. ⁓ I'm like, ⁓ well, I completely unaware of it. But I do feel like as a high collaborator, building relationships has been exactly what you just said, right? You're invited into the room. You're invited for perspective. You're all these things. And if you... Kae: Bye. Romie Montpeirous: You know, if you are aware, then for sure you have to read case books so that could see for what it is. And if you're unaware, like me in the beginning of my career, thank goodness for the first, at least 10 years, then, you know, being a collaborator and not shying away from that is the way you have to build a relationship. You have to. Kae: Yes. Right. And you have to, you know, I think I saw something on one of your TikToks about you have to be a great leader. You have to like people. That's key. a big part of it. It makes it easier. Romie Montpeirous: was yesterday. I tell you enough. And how leaders do we know ⁓ are leading they're climbing the ladder and because they want the money and it has nothing to do with people? And it breaks my heart. Kae: right. Yes, that happens a lot. Yes. And we're setting them up for failure and we're setting up their teams for failure. And I have this conversation a lot with people that we often reward somebody for doing a great job by making them a manager of people. And number one, they may not be a great manager of people. And number two, we put them in that position, but we don't train them to be a good leader. And being a good leader isn't just about results, right? It's empathy, understanding how to create these safe collaborative environments within your team. And we don't teach that enough. Romie Montpeirous: We don't. main program is that to be a mentor for all leaders when they come into leadership, because I had a mentor, thankfully. I had several mentors early on. And when I'm asked about success, I'm like, ⁓ well, ⁓ I know what it would have looked like had I not had people helping me navigate through these challenging times. And I say, it's like when you enter the sixth grade, it's the hardest year because you spent your first 10 years of life with your parents and then elementary school, having your hand held and, then you get dropped into sixth grade and now you've got period, like you've got six periods to go to and you've got to find your classroom and you're, and you're just like, grade was like the worst and the best year because it was a year of independence, but it was also like, you have to figure it out. And so I say, when you go from a frontline to leader, it's the sixth grade all over again, because they're going to look at you differently. Kae: That's right. Yes. a great analogy. Yes. Romie Montpeirous: just because you're a company person now and you don't know how to navigate that because I was just your peer and now I have to tell you what to do with love and directness. so for me, like my give back to the world is that, is just, I want to be that place where you get to say all the things of leadership is like, cause it could be very scary in the beginning and challenging and we don't it. Kae: Yes. Yes. Yes. Romie Montpeirous: We don't teach it and it's on us. ⁓ really is on us for not teaching it, know, for sure. Kae: Yeah. Teaching it and leading by example, like being a good leader teaches the people that work for you how to be a good leader. Cause I've learned leadership through leaders and some really horrible ones as well. Right. ⁓ learn what not to do. ⁓ most of my career, I've had some Romie Montpeirous: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. I don't want to be like that. Kae: really excellent leaders and great advocates for me. You the same that you said, I was really fortunate to find. And there weren't these formal mentorship programs. I did have one which was disastrous and I talk about that in the book, but most of them were not formal and just reaching out and you know, like I do, like you do, trying to help the next person, not just get yourself in that room, bring other people with you. Romie Montpeirous: Yes, that's the whole point. ⁓ someone saw something in me early on that I didn't even know in me and that drew out and I was able to what I call borrow their courage, borrow what they saw in me, because I couldn't see it. And I borrowed theirs until I saw it. And then little by little you start to, and honestly, my mentors were all middle-aged white men who saw something in me that ⁓ you're Kae: Yes. The majority of mine were men. There was probably one woman. majority of my, well, the majority of my bosses were white men because, especially as I became an executive, right? Because they're, not all, but the majority of them were men, yeah. Romie Montpeirous: No Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So for the ambitious woman out there who's been trying to knock down these walls and break the ceiling and has been labeled difficult, what strategies would you give her to help her actually knock down these doors without, you know, by not by herself, like get the help. Kae: It's clarity. When somebody says you're being difficult or, you know, I was always told I was being intimidating. And I knew that was because of the color of my skin, that that was just a bias, right? I am direct for sure, but ⁓ don't think I'm intimidating. And so getting clarity around what does that mean when you say I'm too direct? What does that look like in every day? I want to understand. where you saw me being direct, or if I need to be more strategic or I'm not ready, what does that look like in every day to be ready or to be strategic? You want answers. You don't want vague feedback or vague comments. It just doesn't help you grow. Romie Montpeirous: That's money right there. That's so... Kae: And it's the simple of, what that looks like in the day to day. That's all you have to ask. Romie Montpeirous: Cause they probably don't even know either. Kae: No, because they're just saying words. They're just saying the words that they've heard or they know, well, you're not strategic enough. They're making things up. And if you call them on it, then they have to think about it. I want an answer. I want to know what are the steps I need to take in the day to day to get to the next level. Let's spell it out. Let's put a plan together. Romie Montpeirous: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good. That's really good. Mm-hmm. Kae: And the other part of that is, you know, being labeled difficult. The other part is the awareness, as we said, recognize where it's coming from. It's the system where we're living in that they're living in and working in. It's not you. Don't go to the self doubt first. Romie Montpeirous: It's true. Mm-hmm. 100%. Like don't take yourself out before the world does, right? Like. Kae: recognize it for what it is. And it's just somebody's opinion. Doesn't mean it's right. Romie Montpeirous: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kae: All this is very subjective. Even if you think about reviews, and I've had reviews, I always had excellent reviews. And then I got, and this was a woman, unfortunately, got, the first time I got a meets in my whole career. I have never had a meets ever except for this one time. Even now, I well, I don't get reviewed that way anymore, but, and I was like, I knew it was so subjective, right? It was just this weird thing. And I called her on it. Like I don't agree with this this. So let's discuss these two areas that, I you to understand, let me tell you from my perspective, what I think was happening here. And I'd love to hear yours. I mean, those are the conversations you just have to have. Yeah. Romie Montpeirous: just a conversation. Yeah. And I think that like, I know for me, don't ask enough questions. Well, I actually kind of do, but I can see where I didn't ask the questions and I just believed whatever they said off the cuff, primarily because I didn't want to know what they thought, right? Like I was afraid of like their definition of it or whatever it is. Yeah, I want encourage the listeners that it takes courage to ask these questions, you know, and ask them in poised manner where you're not scattered and you're just, you know, you're centered and you're just wanting more information. Kae: It does. Yes. You want clarity and that if they, you know, if they say that they think that you're being, abrasive or hostile and asking these questions, you can just call and say, no, actually I'm just, I'm just looking for clarity. Cause I, you know, I really am trying to grow. I'm trying to understand, help me understand. Romie Montpeirous: Yeah. And also call out what they may be feeling, right? Like I know that this may be uncomfortable for you because I'm asking you questions, but I really just want to know from my own edification, you know? yeah. Kae: Yes. Right. Yeah. you have to, and as you, you know, we have to have difficult conversations or feel comfortable with being uncomfortable. As you move up in leadership, as you know, you're managing people. There are some conversations you have to have with your employees, with your peers, with your boss, with a vendor. And sometimes they're uncomfortable, but that's okay. You're getting, it's about getting clarity and you have to think of it that way. You're not being a jerk. Romie Montpeirous: Yes. Yeah. Kae: You're not trying to hurt somebody's feelings, you are just trying to get clarity. Romie Montpeirous: Right. And only you know your intentions, right? And so you have to check your intentions. If you are trying to be aggressive, in that, you know, only, you know, what you're actually doing. And I think that that's the difference between, you know, manipulation and not manipulating is your intention behind it. But I agree with asking the question being okay with whatever the answer is, because the answer doesn't have to necessarily impact you, especially if you know, for you, like I'm not aggressive. Kae: Yes. Romie Montpeirous: I'm just direct. I know who I am. So, you know, the fact that you feel that way. Kae: That's right. Right. We have to be honest. We have to be honest with ourselves because, we you know, if you're not getting a great review because and you weren't working hard. Romie Montpeirous: That's, that's what I mean. Like, right. Kae: Right? Right. Or you know that you're lacking in some area of skill with your in your career in your profession. You have to be aware of that and honest with yourself ⁓ about that before you're having these conversations. Romie Montpeirous: No. No. Yeah, yeah. those who say, or for those who are unfamiliar for what inclusion what would your of inclusion be? Kae: an inclusive environment. So to me, an inclusive environment is where you see people that, I mean, some of it's the obvious ones, right? You see people that look like you in all levels. You feel comfortable in your domain, solving problems in your, you feel empowered to solve problems in your domain. You feel Romie Montpeirous: Mm-hmm. Kae: valued in your opinions. You feel comfortable asking questions outside of your domain. You feel comfortable and safe doing that. ⁓ You feel that you have influence. ⁓ You feel to speak and share ideas, even they're not in agreement with somebody else. That's inclusivity. Romie Montpeirous: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kae: Aside from the things that we all know, as I said, the diversity pieces of inclusivity. Romie Montpeirous: Yeah. When you were saying that I was thinking about there's, there's what I believe. And I don't think I've ever said this out loud, but there's what I believe to be a very, I don't know if I should call it response, but seem to observe a of leaders, more old leaders, put people in what I call the icebox ⁓ when they're upset with or when they've done something that they don't necessarily like. And so now we're not inclusive because I want you to know that I'm mad at you. And so if I'm mad at you, that I'm gonna... isolate you and and you know treat you differently for X amount of time just so you know what one have you experienced that and two would you call that and how do we navigate through that? Kae: I have experienced it, I think we all have, because we get some inexperienced leaders sometimes, and that is not an uncommon behavior for them. I would hit that head on. I might not have done that when I was younger, but I'm just telling you what I could do now. In a nice way, I would have a conversation saying, you feel that you ⁓ there's this, you you're avoiding me or you're not allowed, you're not including me in conversations like you used to. ⁓ Romie Montpeirous: so what does that look like? Yeah. Mmm. Kae: And I believe it's because of this conversation that we had or this decision that you made or I made and you and I didn't agree on it. really like us to let's talk about that because I want us to get back to where we were because it only benefits us and business if we're able to work well together. When you come across more professional and more mature and understanding the business than they do for the most part, they are going to back down. Romie Montpeirous: Right. Yeah. And if people could realize like there's this, tinge of expectation that because we're leaders that like things shouldn't bother us or we don't, we're not human almost. Right. And, I want to say like, if your puts you in an ice box, they just don't know how to navigate their own feelings about whatever they're feeling about you. So yes, what K said is right. Like approach it in the most professional mature way possible. because they too want to get back to you. They just don't know how until enough time passes a, ⁓ do you call that? When you do like a gesture, a gesture to say like an olive branch or whatever. And then we start almost like any other relationship, romantic or platonic, you know, but we could close the gap ⁓ really quickly we just say, ⁓ hey, Kae: Right. Romie Montpeirous: I feel like you're feeling the story that I'm telling myself is that you're upset because of this conversation we may have had. I just want to talk through it because I don't want there to be a gap. You know, we're much stronger together than we are with this space in between us. And, as leaders, need help to being called out. I want, like, I tell my team all the time, call me out on my bullshit guys. Like you have to, I'm just a human too. I've had blind spots. I'm unaware. And so if I make you feel away, you know my heart and you know that I don't want to make you feel bad or whatever. And like, just come see me, you know, come talk to me and acknowledge it. Kae: Yeah, I think it's important that you have that conversation as you know, as we've been talking about, because you never know what's going on with that other person anyway. might be interpreting it completely wrong. You might be, right? And that happens, we do. They got other things going on in their life, right? So ⁓ that up in a kind way to have that conversation, I think is the right thing to do. Romie Montpeirous: It happens all the time. Sure. Kae: when people are afraid to do that, you should remember is they may be your leader or it may be a higher title, but we're all human beings. We're beings, they make mistakes, we make mistakes. They don't have a privilege of that behavior just because of their title. We're all in this trying to figure things out. You know, we're so afraid sometimes to speak in these rooms or speak to somebody because of their title. And the reality is even the CEO is there just to figure things out. That's why we're here. That's why they hired us. We don't have it all figured out. They didn't hire somebody because they know the exact answer for that business or that situation. impossible to have that. So if we recognize that it's just, it's another human being in front of you. Romie Montpeirous: Yes. ⁓ Kae: Now, if they really do that a lot more, even after you talk to them about it, that's a different situation, right? Because now they're creating this environment that's, this untenable situation for you. Then there's other things you have to do. But for the most part, I think it will break down that hostility or defense or it is that ⁓ you're experiencing them if you just talk to them about it. Romie Montpeirous: And I'll see you then. Right. Which leads us into, you know, how do you know when it's time to walk away? Kae: If you are in a company that you are not learning, you don't feel valued, you don't have any influence, and you don't find a career path, or you don't feel that there's a career path, that alone should tell you that maybe this isn't the right place for you, or it's not the right manager. ⁓ If you are in, if it's just that you and your boss didn't agree on something and now you're in this weird space, Romie Montpeirous: Mmm. Kae: takes more, know, give the person the benefit of the doubt and have that conversation. Or the company isn't a toxic culture, like try and help fix the situation as employees, all of us, we're all employees, let's try and fix the situation. But if you are in a very toxic environment is not just your manager, that is the way that is the behavior of the company. And those other things that I said about learning and career paths and being seen and valued. then it's time to reconsider if that's the right environment for you. Romie Montpeirous: Right? Structure, culture means a lot. What does that mean? does culture mean to you? What is your, and I should ask, ⁓ first what does culture mean to you? Kae: Mm-hmm. To me, a tough one because it, and you're asking for me, but everybody has their different view of culture. My view of culture is what I had said a little bit earlier, is that I am valued, I feel comfortable making decisions in my domain, I feel comfortable questioning somebody else's domain, I feel seen, I have influence, I see a path. That to me is part of culture and also the... accountability of behavior, bias, all of those things is at every level. Not just you guys have to behave okay, but up here we don't have to behave okay, right? That's a big part for me of culture. Romie Montpeirous: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's big. And as you do climb, there are privileges they should be. You know, there's a reason why they're in that role, you would think, you know, other than, you know, them just being placed there. But, you know, and that's okay too, you know, that's just the higher you climb, the more ⁓ opportunities privilege you have. And I think it's, I think it's okay. It's part of the politics and... ⁓ As long as you, like you said, accountability is being held at the standard that we've established for everyone. I think that's perfectly fine. You know, I don't mind you having as long as I know that you are, you too are responsible the same way I am for this, whatever hoping. Kae: That's right. Yes. You're following the culture and guidelines of the company and policies like everybody else. ⁓ important at every level. Romie Montpeirous: Right. Yeah. And creating, you know, what I found is even if the company and, know, maybe not completely, but even if the company is not as you a leader get an opportunity to be inclusive, right? You don't have to just follow the grain. you, ⁓ what I found is like my department is always treated the way that I want to be treated, you know, because I have the power as a leader to cultivate within me, like, Kae: I agree. Romie Montpeirous: around me, whatever I want to see and feel and do. Now, beyond me, I may not have that, but like from me, you're going to get safety. You're going to get inclusion. You're going to get all the things that I want, you know, and then, you know, hopefully, you know, we see the fruits of that labor it's always been a positive one. But that's honestly a thing that I think that as women we get to do and we get to do it well. Kae: Yes, and I love that you said that because all this conversation about getting rid of DEI and all of those things and my thought was those were very statements and we know that. But as individuals, I always have a diverse team for the most part, depending on what location in the country and all of those things. But I try very hard to have a diverse team of people and I sure it's a safe space that they feel heard, they feel visible. I let them know, I don't know everything. We will figure things out together. We will collaborate and have conversations. I am not making all the decisions for us. That is just, that's not how I operate at all. you can build those within your organization. And I've been in companies where my team was known ⁓ that and people envied the team and they wanted to replicate that within their organization. And that's what we have. That's how we grow these. ⁓ If it's not coming from the top down, we can build it from the bottom up. Romie Montpeirous: It always takes you. And that's, I think that that's what I want people to know the most is always like, can come from you. may not have been given it, but it can come from you. Absolutely. You can cultivate whatever environment you want. And like you said, you know, same people are like, I would love to work for Romi. And I'm like, well, you, you could, and, or can create that where you are. Kae: In your? That's right. Romie Montpeirous: You can create that where you are. So then people could want to do, and the more of us that actually start to just do that, you're unstoppable. Kae: I enjoy the conversation. Romie Montpeirous: ⁓ Yeah. If you were to the listeners ⁓ one action that they could take this week to more inclusive or heart driven, what would it be? ⁓ Kae: Be human. We learn this as a young age, right? Treat others like the way we want to be treated. Romie Montpeirous: Yes. With that means like messy mistakes, it back together, like all of it. All of it. I love that. Be human. Be human. Yes. can, where can people find you? Kae: Be human. All of it. All of it. Yes. Yes. can go to my website, which is kwilliams.com and that's K-A-E Williams dot com and in there I have a link to where you can buy the book because it's available on Amazon and you know Barnes Noble etc. And there's links to my social media. So I do have these conversations on LinkedIn and Instagram and Substack as well. Romie Montpeirous: Very cool, very cool. I feel like this is going to be an ongoing conversation for us, right? Because I feel like we did not, I think we're at like level one of the onion. No, but that's cool because this is just the beginning of just being honest about things. And I feel like this is such a genuine conversation we had about what's really happening out there and it's not fluff, it's real. Kae: Yes, yes, I agree. Yeah, unfortunately, yes, I think you're right. Yeah. Romie Montpeirous: and how to get through it. So I appreciate your contribution to making us a better leader and helping women understand that it's not it may seem. Kae: And thanks for having me here, because this is my goal of writing the book was to get in front of women and other people, all marginalized people, to have these conversations, to help them a joyful career and successful one. So thank you for having this platform that allowed me to come in and speak to you about this today. Romie Montpeirous: Hmm. Absolutely. Okay. Thank you so much. And with that guys, we're going to end the episode. All of Kay's will be in the show notes, especially where to find her book. I think it's going to be a big one for us read and think strategically through to get through these things that may trigger us. And yet we don't even know why they're triggering us, but if we call it out, I know for me, that's a big one of just calling it out and being open to hearing. what the answer is if there is an answer. So all of her stuff will be in the show notes and I hope that you reach out to her, follow her, give her a subscription and stack or wherever she might be found. And until next time, we'll talk later. See you guys. I'm gonna hit start.