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Unhurried Living | Helping Christians Rest Deeper ... - Living on Earth with Heaven in View (Brian Zahnd) · LifeAudio

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: We can sometimes become so focused on living well in
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  Speaker 1: this world that we've forgotten there's an unseen world where
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  Speaker 1: we most truly belong. Hello, friends. I'm Alan Fadling, and
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  Speaker 1: you're listening to the Unhurried Living Podcast, where we inspire
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  Speaker 1: you to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. For
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  Speaker 1: many Christians, heaven has become little more than a destination
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  Speaker 1: after death, but heaven is also a present reality, a
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  Speaker 1: spiritual world woven into the ordinary world around us. Recovering
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  Speaker 1: this vision of heaven invites us to see our lives
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  Speaker 1: differently as a pilgrimage of the soul toward union with God. Today,
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  Speaker 1: I'm talking with pastor and author Brian Zond about his
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  Speaker 1: new book, Unseen Existences of Heaven, Earth, and the Divine
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  Speaker 1: Mystery in All Things. We'll explore what it means to
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  Speaker 1: recover a sense of transcendence, to live more attentively to
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  Speaker 1: God's presence, and to remember that our deepest calling is
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  Speaker 1: not simply to accomplish more, but to become the people
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  Speaker 1: God created us to be. After a brief word from
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  Speaker 1: our sponsor, we'll continue with this episode. My guest today
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  Speaker 1: is Brian Zond. founder and lead pastor of Word of
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  Speaker 1: Life Church in St.
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  Speaker 2: Joseph, Missouri.
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  Speaker 1: Brian is a pastor, theologian, and author whose writing draws
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  Speaker 1: deeply from the wisdom of the historic Christian tradition. This
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  Speaker 1: is Brian's third visit to the Unhurried Living podcast, and
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  Speaker 1: we've previously talked about his books When Everything's on Fire
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  Speaker 1: and The Wood Between the Worlds, and I'm delighted today
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  Speaker 1: to welcome him back to talk about his latest book,
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  Speaker 1: unseen existences. One of Bryan's concerns in this book is
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  Speaker 1: that Christianity can become little more than a program for
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  Speaker 1: personal improvement or social change. Now, personal growth and social
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  Speaker 1: responsibility matter, of course, but neither of these fully captures
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  Speaker 1: the depth of our Christian calling. Bryan reminds us that
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  Speaker 1: our faith is rooted in a reality that is far
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  Speaker 1: greater than than what we can see or measure or accomplish.
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  Speaker 1: I especially appreciate Brian's emphasis on spiritual formation as something
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  Speaker 1: much deeper than mere self-improvement. He draws from the wisdom
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  Speaker 1: of the ancient church to remind us that we are
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  Speaker 1: being formed for communion with God. This is a lifelong
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  Speaker 1: journey that invites us into wonder, attentiveness, and a growing awareness.
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  Speaker 1: of God's presence in the midst of ordinary life. I
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  Speaker 1: think you'll find Brian to be a thoughtful and imaginative
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  Speaker 1: guide who helps us see our lives, our world, and
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  Speaker 1: our relationship with God in a larger and more hopeful light.
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  Speaker 1: And now, my conversation with Brian Zond. So Brian, it
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  Speaker 1: is a great treat to have another conversation. I've really
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  Speaker 1: enjoyed reading your new book, Unseen Existences. So welcome.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, Alan. Good to be with you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I love starting a conversation about a book
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  Speaker 1: by asking if you could share a little bit of
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  Speaker 1: either the story of how it came to be or
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  Speaker 1: the need that sort of you sensed as you wrote it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I felt like heaven had gone missing in a
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  Speaker 2: lot of serious theological discussion. And I mean, I understand why.
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  Speaker 2: I kind of know what happened. And that is that
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  Speaker 2: the ways that heaven has been talked about has been
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  Speaker 2: either inadequate or even embarrassing. And so there's the escapist heaven.
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  Speaker 2: We just want to get out of here, fly away.
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  Speaker 2: And it's sort of a dismissal of any concern for
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  Speaker 2: this world, this good world that is the creation of
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  Speaker 2: our Father. Or there is the sensationalist heaven. You see
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  Speaker 2: these books. They're usually on the New York Times bestsellers.
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  Speaker 2: You know, my 30 minutes in heaven and somebody's, you know,
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  Speaker 2: come back to report on the streets of gold and
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  Speaker 2: the pearly gates or whatever. And then there's just the
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  Speaker 2: sentimentalist approach to heaven that maybe can best be communicated
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  Speaker 2: by the memes you'll see on social media of the
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  Speaker 2: departed rock stars now all jamming together on pillowy clouds
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  Speaker 2: in heaven. And if that's the only way heaven is
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  Speaker 2: talked about, then I understand that people will just maybe
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  Speaker 2: sort of, if they're more serious-minded, that they just will
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  Speaker 2: not engage in that. But that is too great a loss.
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  Speaker 2: And so I thought, well, I want to try to
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  Speaker 2: talk about heaven in a way that is scriptural, that
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  Speaker 2: is serious-minded. that is engaging and that is true to
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  Speaker 2: the long history of Christian theology. So that was as
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  Speaker 2: much as anything the motivation. I'll add this. To say
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  Speaker 2: the book's about heaven is fair enough, but it really
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  Speaker 2: has a dual theme. The original title for the book
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  Speaker 2: was Paths of Unseen Existences, which comes from a line
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  Speaker 2: of poetry from Walt Whitman, which is the epigraph of
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  Speaker 2: the book. I might even just read that.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: This is from Walt Whitman's– it's not the epigraph for
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  Speaker 2: the book. They changed it. It's the epigraph for the prelude.
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  Speaker 2: You paths worn in irregular hollows by the roadsides. I
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  Speaker 2: believe you are latent with unseen existences. You are so
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  Speaker 2: dear to me. And so I originally called the book
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  Speaker 2: Paths of Unseen Existences. The publisher shortened it to Unseen Existences,
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  Speaker 2: which was probably– wise move, but then you lose the
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  Speaker 2: idea that it's talking about two things, the unseen existence
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  Speaker 2: that we can refer to as the heavens or the
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  Speaker 2: spiritual realm or the other world, but that this life
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  Speaker 2: is also understood as a pilgrimage, a journey toward our
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  Speaker 2: true telos of union with God in the eternal realm
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  Speaker 2: of the heavens. So anyway, that's the background on what
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  Speaker 2: was motivating me to write the book.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate that. And I can appreciate that some
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  Speaker 1: of those visions of heaven you share don't seem substantial
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  Speaker 1: enough to hold our interest very long.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Whereas what you're describing, there's something meaty and lasting and
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  Speaker 1: worthy of our attention.
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  Speaker 2: I hope so. I'm trying.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Well.
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  Speaker 1: In the book, I appreciated this sentence. You said that
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  Speaker 1: without metaphysics, Christianity is reduced to mere ethics. You also
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  Speaker 1: suggest that without transcendence, Christianity can deteriorate into politics. Can
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  Speaker 1: you say more about that?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad that you noticed because I like those sentences.
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  Speaker 1: I do too, very much.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, Christianity has an ethical component, or maybe I could
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  Speaker 2: better say, that Christianity should and must inform our ethics.
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  Speaker 2: And likewise, I think Christianity should inform our politics. But
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  Speaker 2: without transcendence, without the idea that through Christian faith, we
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  Speaker 2: are trafficking in two worlds simultaneously, the seen and unseen,
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  Speaker 2: the earthly and the heavenly, then pretty soon all you're
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  Speaker 2: left with is ethics and politics. And then Christianity itself,
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  Speaker 2: the faith itself becomes extraneous and you can just sort
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  Speaker 2: of do away with it. Or it's just used as sort.
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  Speaker 4: Of a, I.
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  Speaker 2: Don't know, as an endorsement for whatever your ethical or
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  Speaker 2: political position is. And so I wanted to be more
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  Speaker 2: true to the Christian faith and not just use it
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  Speaker 2: as a means towards some other ethical or political end.
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to really be just true to the faith itself.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate that so much. So as the book opens,
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  Speaker 1: you quote a musician, Nick Cave, who says we should
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  Speaker 1: take our spiritual intuitions seriously. I wonder if you could
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  Speaker 1: say more about what that means and what that would
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  Speaker 1: look like for us to actually do.
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  Speaker 2: I think almost all people, I haven't been able to
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  Speaker 2: talk to all people, so I don't know. But I
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  Speaker 2: would say I think most people have a capacity and
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  Speaker 2: an experience of intuiting the other world, the invisible world,
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  Speaker 2: the unseen realm, the heavenly realm. But we have been
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  Speaker 2: so conditioned over the last four centuries or so, since
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  Speaker 2: the Enlightenment, that these sorts of things are invalid. They're
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  Speaker 2: either meaningless. merely a motive, or maybe they are just
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  Speaker 2: some leftover evolutionary vestige that serves no real purpose, like
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  Speaker 2: some sort of an appendix or something like that. And
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  Speaker 2: so we are conditioned to either be embarrassed about it
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  Speaker 2: or suppress it or dismiss it. And so then I
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  Speaker 2: draw upon this quote from Nick Cave, who says, if we, well,
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  Speaker 2: you remember what page that is? I'd just like to
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  Speaker 2: read it.
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  Speaker 1: I was right up front, if I remember right. I
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  Speaker 1: thought it was almost like the first page or the first,
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  Speaker 1: maybe the prelude, actually.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Right on page one of the prelude.
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  Speaker 2: There we go.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Is it page one?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I'm looking at the Prelude Passive Unseen Existences. I
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  Speaker 1: can read it. I've got it here.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you read it then. Oh, no, I found it.
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  Speaker 4: Here it is.
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  Speaker 2: We must take our subtle, because they are subtle, spiritual
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  Speaker 2: intuitions seriously and view them as the quintessence that underlies
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  Speaker 2: the ordinary world. The rejection of the sacred is the
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  Speaker 2: fundamental reason for our existential discontent. I just thought that
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  Speaker 2: was a very insightful and succinct way of stating it.
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  Speaker 2: And yeah, we do have an existential spiritual discontent. And
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  Speaker 2: part of it is because we have been conditioned to
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  Speaker 2: not take seriously our own spiritual intuition. And I want
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  Speaker 2: to reclaim that as well.
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  Speaker 1: I love that. I, you know, I sort of grew
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  Speaker 1: up in a very think about, think about things mode.
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  Speaker 1: And then I joined churches that liked thinking about things. And,
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  Speaker 1: I wasn't a part of churches that might have tuned
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  Speaker 1: into deeper impulses, inclinations, you know, intuitions.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: But the longer I go, the more I realize, you know,
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  Speaker 1: wisdom is rooted there.
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  Speaker 4: You know, I think a lot of my experience has
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  Speaker 4: been if you meet someone and they trust you and
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  Speaker 4: they don't think you're trying to sell them something or
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  Speaker 4: manipulate them in any way.
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  Speaker 2: And if you ask them, have you ever had what
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  Speaker 2: you might describe as a spiritual experience? Again, if they
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  Speaker 2: trust you and don't think you're trying to use them.
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  Speaker 2: Most people actually will have something to tell and are
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  Speaker 2: willing to talk about it. Because it is a fundamental
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  Speaker 2: aspect of what it means to be human. But it
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  Speaker 2: is something that in modernity, as I've already said, we've
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  Speaker 2: been conditioned to. But that's when Blaise Pascal, one of
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  Speaker 2: the earlier voices in the Enlightenment, adds this sort of, well,
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  Speaker 2: he's saying, don't forget this. The heart has its reason,
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  Speaker 2: of which reason knows nothing. And so you can't dismiss
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  Speaker 2: Blaise Pascal as just some sort of person that was
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  Speaker 2: opposed to rational thought. I mean, he was one of
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  Speaker 2: the great mathematicians of history. But he says, okay, with
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  Speaker 2: all of our empiricism, with all of our studying the
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  Speaker 2: world around us through empirical methods, never forget that the
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  Speaker 2: heart has its reasons of which reason knows enough. And
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  Speaker 2: that's an important reminder.
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  Speaker 1: After the break, I'll continue my conversation with Brian Zond.
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  Speaker 1: It really is. And so... Earlier, you mentioned your sort
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  Speaker 1: of extended title, The Paths of, or Paths To, I
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  Speaker 1: forget which. But that idea of pilgrimage, that's where you
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  Speaker 1: just mentioned that. I know pilgrimage has been a practice
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  Speaker 1: that's been of great meaning to you for some time.
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  Speaker 1: And I love the image of pilgrimage as a way
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  Speaker 1: of thinking of this life of faith as a journey,
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  Speaker 1: a path, a way, not just a collection of ideas
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  Speaker 1: I agree with. And you say more about how this
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  Speaker 1: image of pilgrimage, especially the pilgrimage toward union with God,
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  Speaker 1: could shape and reshape our sense of discipleship and formation.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, first of all, that's pretty clear in Scripture
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  Speaker 2: that this is a recurrent metaphor, you know, from Genesis
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  Speaker 2: all the way through, that this world is penultimate. There
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  Speaker 2: is a world to come. There is a connection between
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  Speaker 2: the two.
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  Speaker 4: There is.
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  Speaker 2: There is some continuity, but here we have no enduring city,
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  Speaker 2: the writer of Hebrews says. And then we have all
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  Speaker 2: those passages in Hebrews about the patriarchs as pilgrims and
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  Speaker 2: journeying and understanding that, Their ultimate home is that which
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  Speaker 2: is unseen. Paul says, we look not at things which
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  Speaker 2: are seen but unseen, for that which is seen is temporal,
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  Speaker 2: but that which is unseen is eternal. And so to
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  Speaker 2: understand this life as in some ways preparatory or a
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  Speaker 2: forming journey of pilgrimage, that's something that scripture seems to
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  Speaker 2: be very comfortable with. And you already alluded to it,
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  Speaker 2: that it's something that became important in my life, my
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  Speaker 2: wife's life. It was 10 years ago right now. We
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  Speaker 2: were in our final week of our first walking the
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  Speaker 2: 500 miles from Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, France, the Santiago de Campos de
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  Speaker 2: la Spain on the Camino de Santiago. We were in
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  Speaker 2: our final week of that for the first time 10
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  Speaker 2: years ago. So that's even more on my mind right
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  Speaker 2: now as I, think about that anniversary. But that experience,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I know we throw around the phrase, this
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  Speaker 2: changed my life, maybe too freely. But on this occasion,
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  Speaker 2: when I'm talking about this, I am not using hyperbole.
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  Speaker 2: I'm just describing what happened. It really did change our life.
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  Speaker 2: That things became simple and we understood what a metaphor
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  Speaker 2: for life it is. and that we have this great goal,
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  Speaker 2: this place that we are moving toward. And I don't know,
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  Speaker 2: it did so many different things. I'm not doing a
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  Speaker 2: good job communicating this, this actual pilgrimage, but then it
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  Speaker 2: really did help me to understand life as a pilgrim journey.
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  Speaker 2: The first chapter opens with this sentence, we're all born
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  Speaker 2: a long way from home, which of course is... An
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  Speaker 2: unusual sentence. You think of home as where you come from.
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  Speaker 2: But there is a sense in which our true home
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  Speaker 2: is a place we've not yet been, but a place
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  Speaker 2: we need to go. And so thus the pilgrim journey
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  Speaker 2: awaits us. And so I think that's a very helpful
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  Speaker 2: way of thinking about our life, the life of faith, especially.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love the sense of a process, a companion.
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  Speaker 1: a way that's heading somewhere purposeful and good. I love
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  Speaker 1: your image of home is a place we have not
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  Speaker 1: perhaps been yet is a beautiful one.
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  Speaker 2: And I think people can sense that. There is this
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  Speaker 2: sense of, I mean, yes, yes, we have our hometown
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  Speaker 2: or the home we grew up in. But at a
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  Speaker 2: deeper level, it's I'm still looking for something. I'm still
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  Speaker 2: yearning for something I haven't quite yet found, haven't quite
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  Speaker 2: arrived at yet. I believe it's there.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. So as I was thinking about this idea,
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  Speaker 1: your book title, Unseen Existences, I was thinking about, you know,
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  Speaker 1: a movement of spiritual formation that's been around a while.
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  Speaker 1: There's some beautiful things that have arisen. It's been a
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  Speaker 1: movement I've benefited a great deal from. There can be
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  Speaker 1: a way sometimes, though, that personal spiritual formation can become
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  Speaker 1: very focused on me and my improvement, my practices. How
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  Speaker 1: might this image of unseen existences or pilgrimage help enrich
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  Speaker 1: or focus my sense of being on a formational journey?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the things you touched on there,
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  Speaker 2: that one of the, you know, first of all, An
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  Speaker 2: emphasis on spiritual formation, sign me up for it. I
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  Speaker 2: think we need that. But maybe one of the things
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  Speaker 2: that needs to be tweaked is an over-individualistic approach to it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: That this is something I do as a lone individual.
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  Speaker 2: And though we are pilgrims and we are individuals, we
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  Speaker 2: journey together. And You know, we'll be tied the lone pilgrim.
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  Speaker 2: We need one another. This is something that we need
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  Speaker 2: to do in some form of community. Again, I can
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  Speaker 2: just draw upon my experience walking the Camino de Santiago now,
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  Speaker 2: actually four times. And people will ask me, well, can
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  Speaker 2: I go and walk it alone? I said, you will
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  Speaker 2: not walk it alone. That won't happen. I mean, you
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: could get on the plane by yourself and start wherever
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  Speaker 2: you start. But on day one, you're going to meet
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  Speaker 2: other pilgrims. And that's going to be one of the
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  Speaker 2: most lasting effects of a pilgrim journey like that is
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  Speaker 2: the people you meet. And you will find that you
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  Speaker 2: need them and that you're going to have to depend
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  Speaker 2: upon them. There's a saying on the Camino de Santiago,
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  Speaker 2: the Camino will provide. And it means, you know, don't worry.
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  Speaker 2: What you need will be there. Well, it's almost always
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  Speaker 2: there via the other pilgrim. I mean, I don't tell
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  Speaker 2: this in the book. Maybe I do. I think I
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: do refer to it in the book now that I
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  Speaker 2: think of it. We were leaving some particular town very
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: early in the morning. It was still dark. And we
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: had stayed not right on the way, the path, the Camino.
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  Speaker 2: And so I was trying to find it because I
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  Speaker 2: couldn't remember quite where it was. And I was doing
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  Speaker 2: what I know you should not do. I'm walking in
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  Speaker 2: the dark, looking at my phone. I know, I know,
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  Speaker 2: I know people, you shouldn't do this. And I stepped
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  Speaker 2: in this pothole, twisted my ankle, Oh, no. And I said, oh, man.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it hurt. And I went flying to the ground.
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  Speaker 2: And there was a man right beside me from New
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Zealand who I had not met. I didn't know him yet.
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  Speaker 2: And within five minutes, he had an ankle brace out
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  Speaker 2: of his pack. Who just walks with an ankle brace?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: You know, just in case. But he was just in case.
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  Speaker 2: And I was the case. Oh, my goodness. And so
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  Speaker 2: we do depend upon one another. And we do need
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: one another. And somebody in New Zealand is going to
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: be carrying an ankle brace that some– bonehead from Missouri
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: that steps in a pothole in dark while looking at
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  Speaker 2: his phone is going to need. And so you can
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: extrapolate that however you want at a more spiritual level.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, we do need one another, and we're not
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  Speaker 2: called to walk this entirely alone.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely. I would love if you'd take a minute and
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  Speaker 1: just think or share, reflect on other ways in which
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  Speaker 1: your experience of pilgrimage has changed your visions. of living
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: a life of faith in Jesus in this last 10
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  Speaker 1: or so years?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I haven't, I have an answer and I have,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: I have several, I could give the safe answer. I'm
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: going to give the unsafe answer that I think people
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: might disagree with or they'll find problematic. And I say, okay,
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: I understand that there can be something problematic, but I'd
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: still want to say it. So every time that, Perry,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: that's my wife, and I have walked the Camino de Santiago.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: We've always done it in the fall. That's a good
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: season for us, and it's good weather and all of
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. Well, in Spain, as here, fall
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: can be election season. And so here I am as
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: a pilgrim, and I'm passing through this village and that town,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: and I see all of the election billboards and posters.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I don't get very worked up. Because I don't even
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: know these people. I don't know this candidate from that candidate. Now,
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: do I care? Look, I care for the common good,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: the common welfare. And I want to be at any
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: given moment in my immediate moment in proximity, I want
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: to be kind and just and loving and helping however
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: I can. And so I do care for the well-being,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: but I am not overly passionate that this must happen
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: when I'm walking through some other, because there is a,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I'm a pilgrim. I am passing through. I'm not fully invested.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: And there is a sense in which, again, if you
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: find this problematic, one of my defenses will be, this
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: is how the early church really did view themselves. And
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: what they were most concerned about was, well, how can
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: I bring justice to right here around me in this
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: immediate proximity and moment, but not how can I change
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: the world through the political process. And so a pilgrim's
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: attitude toward this life may bring a kind of saving,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: holy ambivalence. Again, I understand how that can be critiqued.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: So try to give me the benefit of the doubt,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: engage with me in good faith, that there is a
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: sense in which Here we have no enduring city or polis.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: This is Hebrews 13, I think it's verse, I don't know, six, eight,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: something like that. Here we have no lasting or enduring polis,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: but we are looking for the one that is to come.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: And so I think that gives us a kind of
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: saving grace perspective that we don't have to be entirely responsible.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: For changing the world. In fact, I wish we would
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: maybe modify our aspirations a little bit. It's not our
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: task to change the world. It's simply our task to
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: be that part of the world already transformed by Christ
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: and then press on in the pilgrim journey. And then
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: at any given moment, when someone needs an ankle brace,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: give them one or whatever, that sort of.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Well, it makes me think, I think I remember Dallas
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Willard once saying, you know, Only God can love the
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: whole world. You could love your neighbor. And it sounds
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: from your description of some of these pilgrimage experiences that
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: your neighbor, the one walking with you or the one nearby,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: those were the significant connections.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Well, and you can flip that around because what it
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: is easy to do is say, I love the whole world.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: It's my neighbors I can't stand. Well, you know, loving
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: the whole world is abstract and basically for us meaningless.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: What we need to do is love our neighbor, you know,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: the person right there in front of us.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, yeah, I remember growing up, there was
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: a line that some people would talk about being so
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: heavenly minded, you know, you're, you're no earthly good. There's
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: one of those sort of lines, but there's a heavenly
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: mindedness that you're recommending. That might make us much more
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: earthly good.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just don't, I remember that quote. I get
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: all of that. And maybe in certain ecclesial settings that
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: are super duper spiritual, there might be some truth. I
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: get that. But for the most part, that is not
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: our problem. We are not so heavenly minded. We're no
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: earthly good. We're so earthly minded that we've lost sight
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: of anything else. And so, you know, I mean, I'm
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: just quoting the Apostle Paul or paraphrasing him when he says,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: set your mind on things above, not on things on earth.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: And you say, well, does that make us irresponsible? No,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: it doesn't. Jesus teaches us to pray, thy kingdom come,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: And so we have to have some sort of heavenly
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: concept of where things are right, things are healed. things
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: are restored, and then we pray and try to live
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: toward that, knowing that it won't be perfected in this
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: age and in this pilgrim journey, but still that becomes
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: the standard. But if you have no concept of the
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: heavens and a time and place where things are healed
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: and right, then how are you going to move towards
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: on earth as it is in heaven? Absolutely.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. It's a perfectly good question.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that prayer presumes that we have some kind of faith,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: spiritual awareness of a heavenly realm where things are right.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Things are just. Things are healed.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Well, so as I'm thinking, many of our listeners carry
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: a certain amount of leadership responsibility. Some pastors, some in
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: business contexts. Your statement, which I think is an essential one,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: is that our ultimate calling is union with God. That
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: might not be on the top of the list for
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: every person listening. And yet, I think your invitation to
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: make that a central pursuit in the midst of all
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: that we do and all that we are seeking to
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: be faithful for is a beautiful one. Can you say more?
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I can say more.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: Good. Yeah.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: So our true telos is to, as it says in
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: 2 Peter, participate in the divine nature. This actually takes
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: us all the way back to the very beginning, to
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: like in the beginning, Genesis 1 in the beginning, where
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: you have the Christian interpretation would be the Godhead. Let
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: us make humankind in our image according to our likeness.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: So right there, from the very beginning, we get the
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: tell-all that human beings would participate in the likeness of God,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: in the nature of God, to become like God. Now,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: here's where it gets tricky. Then you have the serpent
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: come in and tempt Adam and Eve to become like God.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: And we've thought, well, being like God, that must be
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: the temptation. No, that's the tell-all. That's the original design
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: from God. That's the good end of this whole thing.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: The insidious aspect of the serpent's temptation was the attempt
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: to be like God apart from God.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: Oh, boy.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Through knowledge alone. See, the tree of the knowledge of
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: good and evil, it wasn't bad. It was just we
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: weren't ready for it yet.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: We were still in a state of spiritual moral infancy
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: and needed to grow, and then eventually we could partake.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: But the serpent said, no, no, no, there's no growth.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: You're ready. You don't have to learn and grow and develop.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: You don't have to have a spiritual formation. Just grasp
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: that fruit of the tree of knowledge, and you can
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: become like the gods. Today, we would say it's the
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: attempt to become like God through technology alone. And so
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: we become like God through union with God, through participation
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: in the divine nature, not through denying the existence of God,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: whether we do it completely or philosophically or just functionally,
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: that we try to become God-like just through our knowledge
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: and our technology and our power and our politics. That's
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: the insidious aspect of the serpent's temptation. So our true
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: telos is to become like Jesus. When we look at Jesus,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: we see two things simultaneously that are just so beautiful.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: First of all, we see what God is like. You know,
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: at the end of his poetic prologue, John says, and
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: this is John 1.1, in the beginning was the Word.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: Verse 14, the Word becomes flesh. And at the end
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: of that, verse 18, no one has ever seen God.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: The only begotten Son who is near the Father's heart,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: He has made Him known. Well, we could say, what
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: do you mean no one's ever seen God? And you
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: could have all the examples out of the Old Testament
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: of people encountering God. Well, I think John would say, look,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: I know the Bible. But what I'm saying is, no
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: matter what dreams, visions, revelations, epiphanies, theophany, people have had
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: in times past, in comparison to the revelation of God
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: in Christ, no one's ever seen that. So to see
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Jesus is to have the full revelation of what God
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: is like, but it doesn't end there. It's also the
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: full revelation of what human beings are to become. I mean,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: I think people know this, right? Christians know this. We
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: are to become God. like jesus so so genesis the
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: genesis tell us let us create humankind in our image
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: the corner our likeness is not abandoned because of the
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: fall the transgression it's it's set back on track by
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: the new adam or the last adam who is Adam,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: who is Christ, and that's restored. But that's all part
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: of the pilgrimage journey. You know, we can talk about
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: our conversion experience. I mean, many can anyway, and say
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: it was at this moment, this place, I asked Jesus
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: into my heart.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: I'm all for it.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Great.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: But that's just the beginning. I mean, well, I'll go
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: back to my pilgrim metaphor. You know, we began in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, France,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: in the Pyrenees. And I still remember walking out of
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: that pilgrim office. where we'd got our pompastone. I remember
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: our first step onto the Camino. It's memorable. It's important.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: We could never have reached Santiago without that first step.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: But on the other hand, the first step is only
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: the first step. That's all it is. And we have
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: to be careful not to turn conversion into the completion
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: of the entire journey. What we might call our conversion
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: experience or getting saved or whatever all that is, that's great.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: And if you have that kind of story, testimony, hold
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: on to it, but don't over-realize it. Just understand that
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: it was the first step. So that's why it's memorable,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: but now take the second and the third, and it's
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: about a million steps across the Camino. So this is
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: the Apostle Paul telling us, I press on. I'm not
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: there yet, but I'm still walking. I'm still pressing on.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: I love that. I'm thinking, you know, Paul's language in
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: his Colossian letter, set your hearts on things above, set
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: your minds on things above. You know, you've shared how
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: the practice or the experience of pilgrimage has been an
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: important element of that for you. Just in your day-to-day, week-to-week,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: are there other ways that help you stay awake to
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: the reality of heaven in the midst of kind of
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: what fills your life and your days.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: There are moments when I think we catch glimmers of
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: the heavens, of the other world, of the eternal world.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: This world, we think of this world as, you know,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: so substantial, so enduring. You know, I mean, we stand
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: upon solid ground, except we don't. The tectonic plates are moving.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Everything's in change. You never cross the same river twice.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Everything's in flux. But there is a world that is
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: enduring and eternal and lasting and perfect. And I think
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: the moments of beauty that we behold remind us of
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: that and give us a glimpse. And so I've really
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: over the last, I don't know, 15 years, maybe a
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: little longer, I've I have tried to exercise a practice
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: of being intentional of recognizing the beauty that's around me.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: In the book I talk about, I just started this
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: practice a few years ago where most nights I'll just
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: walk into my backyard and just pay attention to the sounds.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Maybe I see the stars, you know, depending on what
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: the weather and all that is. Look for the constellations
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: at their different places, you know, throughout the year.
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: And I.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Regularly am just, my heart is smitten with the beauty
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: that I behold. And there's far more beauty all around us,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: but we become so, what is this? The unhurried podcast?
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Is this what this is? The unhurried, what is it?
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Unhurried living?
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Unhurried living.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: This is what I'm talking about. If we are dashing,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: if we're harried and hurried, if we're rushing all the time,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: I know there's moments when that'll be our experience, but
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: if that becomes our lifestyle, we're missing so much beauty
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: that is, I think, essential for the well-being of our soul.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: I did a practice a few years ago where if
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: I drive, I'm here in my house, the church that
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: I pastor, Word of Life Church is 12 miles away
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: or 12 minutes away. It's just a 12 minute drive.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: And I live kind of right on the edge of
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: town and then driving towards town. It's just, you know,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: it's American Midwest suburbia.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: So it's the Walmart. It's, you know, it's those things.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: So I don't, I'm not living in a place where
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: my drive, you know, has a scenic drive sign.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: And yet, and yet I said, no, I know there's
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: beauty all around me. And so every time, I did
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: this for months. I'm going to keep my eye out
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: for at least one signal of beauty. And you know what?
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: I never failed to find it. It was there. Maybe
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: it was the clouds. Maybe it was some geese flying over.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Who knows what it was? Maybe there was just the
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: simple beauty of a woman walking her dog that I
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: caught that moment. And so this is a practice that
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: I think does slow us down and does help remind
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: us that there is a perfect world where the true
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: and the good and the beautiful are eternal and enduring.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: And in various moments, they shine through into this temporal
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: world and they become reliable guides. I tie it in
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: again with Camino. The Camino de Santiago is marked by
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: the fletches, the yellow fletches. Fletch is just, you know,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: arrow in Spanish. And you're always looking for those. I mean,
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: you just, within the first day or two, you just
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: sort of learn, especially when you're passing through a city.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: If you're out in the woods and it's just, you
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: know it's the Camino, it's the path, it's not quite
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: that necessary. But you do pass through towns and a
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: few cities along the way, and you've got to keep
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: your eye out for those fletches or you'll miss the turn.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: And then, yeah, I've got to find my way back.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: And where did the Camino go? I think of beauty...
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: And the things that evoke wonder and awe as these
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: reliable way markers or the fletches in the pilgrim journey
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: through life. And so I encourage everyone, and I'll just
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: keep riffing off of the title of this podcast, the
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: name of this podcast. It would be when you get
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: hurried in a city that you start missing the fletches.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: And you know what your hurry does? It slows you down.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: It surely does.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: Because you've lost it. You know, this would happen a
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: few times. You know, it'd be like, Harry, I haven't
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: seen any yellow fletches for a while.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Have you? No.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Well, we're going to have to go back and find
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: them because we're off the green.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: So the things, though, that sense of wonder and that awe,
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: those are reliable way markers for our journey that help
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: remind us. that we are headed for the world where
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: the true and the good and the beautiful are the
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: attributes of God existing in perfection.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, that is so good. I'll share with you something.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: Just the other day, I started reading John of the
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Cross's Spiritual Canticle, reading some classics here and there.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: That's a Spanish mystic right there. That's exactly right. I
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: was thinking of that. And a story is told that
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: he was speaking to a woman who was head of
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: one of the Carmelite communities that John, of course, was
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: connected to as well. And he asked her, what is
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: your way of praying? What does that look like? And
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: her summary was, My way of praying consists in beholding
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: God's beauty and rejoicing that he possesses it. I thought,
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: oh my goodness. John was so captured by that.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Is this Teresa of Avila that he was talking with?
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: No, it was just a mother of one of the
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: communities in a small little town. So it wasn't Teresa.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: But he was just so captured by this. He couldn't
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: stop talking about this woman's way of praying, which was
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: focused on the beauty of God.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: I just thought of, So as we're coming to the
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: close of our conversation, I wonder if you could just
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: offer a word of, oh, perhaps pastoral encouragement to our
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: listeners in the spirit of your book.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I am going to go to Teresa of Avila,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: another Spanish mystic. And she was a friend and kind
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: of a teacher of John of the Cross. For sure. And, well,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: I'll tell the story first. So the last time we
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: walked a Camino was 2023. So it's been a little while.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: You can't do it all the time.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: And Perry had brought with her, it's kind of a
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: prayer or it's a confession. It's an acknowledgement. It's known
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: as St. Teresa's bookmark. But it comes from St. Teresa
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: of Avila, this 17th century Spanish mystic Carmelite nun. And
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: it goes like this. Let nothing disturb you. Let nothing
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: frighten you. All things are passing away. God never changes.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Patience obtains all things. Whoever has God lacks nothing. God
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: alone suffices. She brought that in a little card we
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: had with her. And I thought that was great. But
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: it became kind of our, I don't know, it just
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: stayed with us on that. Now, if you walk 500 miles, okay,
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: Things are going to go wrong. That's the nature of it.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: I remember one day where it just rained all day.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: Somebody asked me, well, what do you do if it
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: rains on the Camino? I said, you walk in the rain.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, you get wet. I mean, that's what you do.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: But it was one of those days where it just
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: rained all. It just never let up. And this was
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: sort of annoying. I mean, it's romantic for the first
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: 30 minutes, and then after a while, it's just annoying.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: And we were cold and it was, you know, and
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: we got to the town where we were staying. But
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: for the life of me, I could not find our lodging.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: I had directions, but they didn't seem to make sense.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: And I was trying to find him and I was,
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: you know, having to talk to people in Spanish and
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: my Spanish is terrible. And I was getting frustrated, you know,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: because I just wanted to get out of the rain
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: and I can't find where we're supposed to stay. And
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Perry would just start saying, Let nothing disturb you. Let
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: nothing frighten you. All things. And you know what, though?
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: That actually helped. And I like that so much that
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: I just kept it. I memorized it. And it's part
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: of what I said every day during my morning time
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: of prayer. And it's so counterintuitive. To the so-called wisdom
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: of this world. I mean, the world around us with
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: the internet and the news and the politics and all
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: of it is more or less the opposite. You know,
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: let everything disturb you. Be afraid of everything. And then
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: that all things are passing away is viewed negatively. And
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: we desperately try to clutch and hold on to things that, no,
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: let go. It's going to pass away. We have not
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: yet reached the eternal. So let me say it one
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: more time. This is my pastoral counsel from Teresa of Avila.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: Let nothing disturb you. Let nothing frighten you. All things
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: are passing away. God never changes. And listen to this.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Patience obtains all things. Patience and wisdom are so closely
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: related that you can hardly tell the difference. Patience obtains
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: all things. Whoever has God lacks nothing. God alone. Suffice.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: Amen. Amen.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: I so appreciate you closing with that. Again, my guest
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: today has been Brian Zahn, and we've been talking about
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: his book, Unseen Existences. Brian, it's been such a pleasure
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: to have this time together.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: Alan, it's my pleasure. Thank you.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Unhurried Living podcast. To
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: learn more about us, visit unhurriedliving.com. In the show notes,
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: you'll find helpful links and information about our partner, Life Audio,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: and all of their other faith-centered podcasts.