Latest / Kat Has Questions: True Crime and Unsolved Mysteries / Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Dee Dee’s Abuse, the Murder Plot & Nicholas Godejohn

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Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Dee Dee’s Abuse, the Murder Plot & Nicholas Godejohn · Kat Has Questions: True Crime and Unsolved Mysteries

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Cat Has Questions. Curiosity, stories, and the strange
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: corners of everyday life. Hello, hello. I'm Cat. Welcome back
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: to Cat Has Questions. Before we get into today's story,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I want you to forget for just a second everything
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: you already know about Gypsy Rose Blanchard. Forget the documentaries.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Forget the act. forget TikTok, forget everything that's happened since
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: she walked out of prison. Because in June of 2015,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: most people knew Gypsy as a severely disabled young woman
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: who couldn't walk, supposedly had leukemia, muscular dystrophy, seizures, vision
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: and hearing problems, and according to her mother, the mental
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: capacity of a much younger child. Her mother, Dee Dee Blanchard,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: had dedicated basically her entire life to taking care of her.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: At least, That was the story. Then, Dee Dee was murdered.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Gypsy disappeared. And within days, investigators discovered that almost everything
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: they thought they knew about this mother and daughter was wrong.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Because when police found Gypsy Rose, she wasn't kidnapped, she
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: wasn't helpless, and she wasn't in her wheelchair. She was
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: standing on her own two feet. This is the story
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: of Gypsy Rose and Dee Dee Blanchard. And somehow, the
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: truth is even stranger than the version most people know.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: On June 14th, 2015, something bizarre appeared on a Facebook
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: page belonging to Dee Dee and Gypsy Blanchard. Four words.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: That bitch is dead. Friends immediately started commenting and calling.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Nobody could reach Dee Dee. Then another post appeared. This
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: one was much more graphic. Whoever was using the account
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: claimed Dee Dee had been killed and Gypsy had been raped.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: People were panicking. Because as far as anyone knew, Gypsy
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: was extremely medically fragile. She used a wheelchair, had a
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: feeding tube, and supposedly needed her mother for almost everything.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: So if something had happened to Dee Dee, where was Gypsy?
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: A friend called 911, police went to Dee Dee and
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Gypsy's little pink house on Volunteer Way in Springfield, Missouri.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: The wheelchair-accessible home, Habitat for Humanity, had built specifically for them.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee's vehicle was outside. Nobody answered the door. When
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: officers finally entered the house, they found 48-year-old Dee Dee
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Blanchard face down on her bed. She had been stabbed repeatedly.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Gypsy was gone. Her wheelchair was not. At first, police
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: feared whoever murdered Dee Dee had taken her vulnerable daughter.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Then investigators traced the Facebook posts. The IP address led
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: them more than 500 miles away to Big Bend, Wisconsin,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: and the home of 26-year-old Nicholas Gojon. Police surrounded the house.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: After a brief standoff, Nick was taken into custody. And
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: with him was the missing girl everyone in Missouri was
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: terrified for. Gypsy Rose Blanchard was alive. and walking. Suddenly,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: this wasn't simply the story of a murdered mother and
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: her kidnapped daughter. Investigators were about to discover that Gypsy
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: had spent most of her life being presented as profoundly
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: ill when many of those illnesses didn't exist. And somewhere
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: along the way, Gypsy decided there was only one way
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: she was ever going to get out. Her mother had
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: to die. To understand how Dee Dee convinced so many
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: people that her daughter was profoundly sick, We have to
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: go all the way back to Louisiana. Gypsy Rose Blanchard
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: was born July 27, 1991. Hey, B-Day twins, not the year,
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: but not many July 27 girlies out there. Gypsy's mother
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: was Claudine Blanchard, although everyone called her Dee Dee. And
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: her father was Rod Blanchard. Rod was very young when
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee became pregnant. The two married, but their relationship
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: was essentially over by the time Gypsy was born. Rod
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: later said he realized he had gotten married for the
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: wrong reasons and simply wasn't in love with Dee Dee.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: But he didn't disappear from Gypsy's life. He paid child support,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: stayed in contact, and, especially when Gypsy was younger, saw her.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: That's important because one of the obvious questions in this
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: story is where was Gypsy's dad? And the answer isn't
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: simply that he wasn't around. According to Rod, Dee Dee
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: was incredibly controlling when it came to Gypsy. Even during visits...
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: DeeDee remained nearby, and most of the information he received
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: about his daughter's health came directly from her. The medical
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: concerns started extremely early. When Gypsy was around three months old,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: DeeDee became convinced she had sleep apnea, that she would
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: stop breathing while she slept. Gypsy underwent hospital monitoring, and
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: the testing reportedly did not show that she had sleep apnea.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: But instead of the concerns ending there, they expanded. There
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: were supposed seizures, vision and hearing problems. Eventually, Dee Dee
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: began telling people Gypsy had some unspecified chromosomal disorder that
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: seemed to explain everything else. By the time Gypsy was
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: around eight, Rod said he was being told his daughter
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: had leukemia, muscular dystrophy, paralysis, that she needed a feeding tube,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: and that she had to use a wheelchair. Imagine hearing
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: all of that from the parent who attends every appointment.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: You're not looking at the medical records yourself. You're being
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: told your child has cancer and a progressive muscle disease.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: The person giving you that information appears to know every diagnosis, medication,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: and procedure. Dee Dee had even worked as a nurse's
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: aide at one point, so medical terminology wasn't foreign to her.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: And this also didn't happen all at once. One complaint
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: led to another. One specialist led to another. And as
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: Gypsy's medical history became longer... each new doctor was meeting
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: a child who already appeared to have a complicated medical history.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: There were some legitimate problems mixed in. Gypsy did have
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: issues involving her eyes and received treatment for them. That's
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: worth saying because this wasn't necessarily a case where every
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: medical concern Dee Dee ever raised was fictional. But Gypsy
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: was a child. She didn't know which tests showed what.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: She didn't know what medication she actually needed. She knew
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: what her mother told her, and why wouldn't she trust her?
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: If Dee Dee said, you have muscular dystrophy, why would
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: a seven-year-old assume her mother was lying? Gypsy did know
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: one particularly important thing, though. She could walk. But Dee
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Dee taught her that around other people, she wasn't supposed to.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Gypsy eventually stopped attending regular school and was homeschooled because
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: of her supposed health problems. That meant fewer teachers, classmates,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: school nurses, and other adults seeing her independently of Dee Dee.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Her world became much smaller. And Dee Dee increasingly controlled
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: the information everyone received about her. Doctors heard Dee Dee's version.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: And also I should point out, when you're jumping from
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: one doctor to another, especially with someone who has a
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: lot of complex problems, they're reading other doctors' notes. Even
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: if they're like, well, this isn't adding up, they might
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: see a note from someone about something else, a different specialist.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: So even if one doctor is saying, this doesn't seem true,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: she could just jump to another doctor. Rod, her father,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: also heard Dee Dee's version of the story. Friends heard
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee's version. And Gypsy herself heard Dee Dee's version.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Before Gypsy was old enough to really understand what was happening,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: her mother had built an identity for her. Fragile, developmentally delayed,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: wheelchair dependent, and completely reliant on Dee Dee for survival.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: From the outside, Dee Dee didn't look like someone hurting
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: her daughter. She looked like an incredibly devoted mother, sacrificing
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: everything to keep her sick child alive. And soon, Gypsy
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: wasn't just going to look sick on paper. Her body
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: was going to start reflecting the consequences of being treated
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: like she was. As Gypsy got older, illness became something
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: she physically performed. She used a wheelchair. She slept with
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: a breathing machine. She had a feeding tube placed into
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: her stomach. She took medications for conditions that, in many cases,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: she didn't actually have. And Dee Dee even shaved her head.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: The explanation was leukemia. A little girl with no hair
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: sitting in a wheelchair with a feeding tube while her
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: mother rattles off a complicated medical history isn't someone most
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: people are going to challenge. You assume another doctor has
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: already verified all of this. Gypsy had underwent multiple medical procedures. Again,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: some treatment, particularly involving her eyes, were legitimate. Others became
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: much harder to understand once the truth came out. One
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: involved her salivary glands. Deedee told doctors Gypsy Rose drooled excessively,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: so Gypsy received treatment intended to reduce saliva production and
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: eventually including removal of her salivary glands altogether. Her teeth
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: also deteriorated and several were extracted. Exactly what caused all
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: of her dental damage isn't entirely clear. Reporting has pointed
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: to factors including medication, the reduced saliva since she didn't
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: have those salivary glands, and possible neglect. But whatever the cause,
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: the result was a child who increasingly looked as medically
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: fragile as Didi claimed. Missing teeth, feeding tube, shaved head, wheelchair,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: medication after medication. And meanwhile, Gypsy knew she could stand up.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: She has described understanding that she had to remain in
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: the wheelchair around other people and said that if she
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: started saying something Dee Dee didn't like, Dee Dee would
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: squeeze her hand as a warning to stop. Imagine how
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: that looks in an exam room. A doctor asks the
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: child a question, mom answers, she lists the history, explains
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: the symptoms, names previous diagnoses, and the child sits quietly
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: beside her. That can look like a mother who has
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: spent years becoming an expert on her medically complex daughter.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: It also means, though, every piece of information is passing
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: through Dee Dee. If a physician's findings didn't support one
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: of her claims, Dee Dee would just move on to
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: another doctor or specialist. Eventually, Gypsy's medical history itself gave
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee credibility. A new physician wasn't necessarily starting with,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: does this child actually need a wheelchair? They're seeing a
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: child who already has a wheelchair, feeding tube, medications, and procedures.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: And Gypsy herself didn't immediately understand that all of the
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: diagnoses were false. She has said that even after she
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: knew she could walk and eat normally, she still believed
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: she had leukemia. Which makes this much more psychologically complicated
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: than simply saying, why didn't she stand up and tell somebody?
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Gypsy grew up inside the lie. She knew her mother
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: lied about some things, but she didn't necessarily know which things.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: And throughout all of this, Dee Dee received attention, sympathy,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: and praise. People saw a single mother completely devoted to
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: a daughter completely. who might never live independently, and, depending
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: on which diagnosis Didi was discussing, might not live very
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: long at all. Then, in 2005, something happened that gave
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Didi an almost perfect explanation for gaps in Gypsy's medical history.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: Hurricane Katrina. In August of 2005, Hurricane Katrina devastated the
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Gulf Coast. Didi and Gypsy were living in Sledell, Louisiana.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: They ended up in a special needs shelter, and Dee
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Dee said their home had been damaged. She also said
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Gypsy's medical records had been destroyed. And honestly, after Katrina,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: that was completely believable. People had lost homes, belongings, and documents.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Hospitals were damaged. Families were displaced. For Dee Dee, it
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: also created something useful. A fresh start. She and Gypsy
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: relocated to Missouri, initially settling in Aurora. Now, DeeDee could
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: tell new doctors about muscular dystrophy, leukemia, and previous specialists.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: And if documentation was missing, Katrina explained why. Their story
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: also made people want to help. A single mother caring
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: for a profoundly disabled daughter that had survived a catastrophic
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: hurricane and relocated to a new state. Gypsy received charitable
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: assistance and special experiences. She attended concerts, met celebrities, went
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: to Disney World through Make-A-Wish. In 2007, she was named
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: the Olay Foundation's Child of the Year, an award connected
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: to children who rely on feeding tubes and intravenous nutrition. Then,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: in 2008, Habitat for Humanity built Dee Dee and Gypsy
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: a home in Springfield. It was pink and wheelchair accessible,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: with features designed for Gypsy's supposed disabilities. There is old
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: footage of them at charity events. Gypsy looks tiny in
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: her wheelchair, often wearing glasses and a hat or a wig.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee sits beside her, smiling and talking about caring
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: for her daughter. At a Relay for Life event, Dee
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Dee described being Gypsy's mother as essentially her purpose. Watching
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: it now is unsettling because nothing about Dee Dee necessarily
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: looks sinister. She looks devoted. And that's part of what
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: made this so difficult to recognize. We tend to imagine
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: medical neglect as a child not being taken to the doctor.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Gypsy had the opposite problem. She was receiving enormous amounts
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: of medical attention. But one doctor did eventually start asking questions.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Thank God. Pediatric neurologist Dr. Bernardo Flasterstein saw Gypsy in
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Missouri when she was around 14 years old. DeeDee presented
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: her as having serious neurological problems. However, the physical examination
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: did not match that story. Gypsy did not have the
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: muscular weakness he had expected to see. During an examination, Dr.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Flasterstein saw her stand and support her own weight. So
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: he started looking backward. He contacted one of Gypsy's previous
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Louisiana doctors. And despite DeeDee's claim that relevant records had
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: disappeared after Katrina... some earlier medical information still existed. One
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: particularly important result was a negative muscle biopsy. There was
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: no evidence supporting dystrophy. Dr. Flasterstein documented Didi as an
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: unreliable historian and noted concern about possible Munchausen syndrome by proxy,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: what today would generally be called fictitious disorder imposed on another.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: And if you don't know what this is, this is
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: when Someone basically pretends that a loved one or, for example,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: a child is sick when they're actually not. It's important, though,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee herself was never formally diagnosed with this disorder.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: But this is the moment where you hear the story
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: and think, finally, somebody sees it. Except it didn't necessarily stop. Dr.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Flasserstein did not make a formal Child Protective Services report
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: at that time. He later explained that he didn't believe
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: he had enough evidence to prove abuse and worried an
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: accusation against the seemingly devoted mother might not be believed.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Once Dee Dee realized he was questioning Gypsy's diagnosis, she
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: stopped taking Gypsy to him. Then, in 2009, so this
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: was a couple years later, someone else raised concerns. An
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: anonymous caller reportedly told authorities Dee Dee was using different
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: names and different birth dates for herself and Gypsy, and
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: suggested Gypsy might actually be healthier than Dee Dee claimed.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: And then that triggered a welfare check. Again, Dee Dee
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: had an explanation. She said she used different identifying information
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: because she was hiding from an abusive ex-husband. Gypsy remained
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: in the wheelchair and presented the way people expected her to.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: The caseworkers did not find enough to intervene, and the
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: case was closed. And apparently, nobody called Rod, her dad,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: to verify the story about this supposedly dangerous ex-husband. Had
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: they done that, Rod could have told them that he
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: was paying child support and trying to remain involved in
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: his child's life. So, by the end of the 2000s,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: a neurologist had been questioning her diagnosis. Testing didn't support
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee's claims. Someone had reported concerns, and authorities had
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: been inside of their home. And still nothing changed. Except
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Gypsy was getting older. And Dee Dee's entire story depended
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: on her remaining young and helpless. So Dee Dee began
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: manipulating something else. Gypsy's age. Gypsy was born in 1991.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: But at least one altered birth certificate, later recovered, changed
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: her birth year to 1995. And Dee Dee wasn't only
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: making Gypsy seem younger to strangers... According to Rod, around
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Gypsy's 18th birthday, Dee Dee warned him not to mention
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: her age when he called. Her explanation? She thinks she's 14.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: That's what she told him. Gypsy has said that for years,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: she genuinely wasn't completely sure how old she was. Eventually,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: she found paperwork showing a 1991 birth year, but Dee
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Dee told her it was a mistake. Then, Gypsy found
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: the same year somewhere else. If Dee Dee had lied
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: about her age... What else wasn't true? At the same time,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Gypsy discovered something Dee Dee couldn't completely control. The internet.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: For someone whose entire life had been filtered through her mother,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: going online gave Gypsy privacy. She could make friends, flirt,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: talk to people without Dee Dee answering for her. And
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: she could be seen as something other than a sick
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: little girl. Gypsy and Dee Dee sometimes attended science fiction
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: and fantasy conventions. Gypsy loved costumes, Disney, and romantic fantasies.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: Around 2011, Gypsy became involved with an older man usually
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: identified publicly only as Dan. Gypsy was actually 19. Most
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: people around her thought she was younger. At some point,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: she packed a small bag in the middle of the
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: night and left Dee Dee to go be with him.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee tracked her down within hours. Gypsy was legally
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: an adult, but Dee Dee reportedly had paperwork suggesting otherwise
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: and threatened to involve police. So Gypsy went home. What
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: happened afterward comes primarily from Gypsy's own later account, including
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: testimony she eventually gave under oath. Dee Dee obviously wasn't
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: alive to respond to these allegations. Gypsy said Dee Dee
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: destroyed her phone and computer. She said Dee Dee threatened
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: to smash her fingers with a hammer if she tried
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: to leave again. She testified that Dee Dee restrained her
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: to a bed for roughly two weeks, using chains or handcuffs,
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: leaving Gypsy dependent on her even to use the bathroom.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Gypsy has also described being hit and punished by having
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: food withheld. Whatever can or cannot be independently verified about
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: those specific allegations, one thing is clear. the attempt to
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: escape failed. And Gypsy did not stop looking for another
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: way to create a life outside of her mother. Eventually,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: she regained access to the internet. At night, in secret,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Gypsy could become an entirely different person. In public, she
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: was still the childlike girl in the wheelchair. Online, she
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: could talk about sex, marriage, relationships, children, and leaving home. Then,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: in October of 2012, When Gypsy was 21, she joined
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: a Christian dating website. There, she met a 23-year-old man
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: from Wisconsin, Nicholas Gojohn. At first, it was a long-distance
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: internet relationship. Messages, pictures, late-night conversations, plans to eventually meet.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: But over time, Gypsy began telling Nick things almost nobody knew.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: That she could walk. That she wasn't as sick as
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Didi claimed. that her mother controlled her and she wanted out.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Nick knew the secret and he stayed. For Gypsy, that
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: probably felt like exactly what she had been waiting for. Unfortunately,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: the relationship they built was about to become much darker.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Nicholas Gojohn lived with his mother in Wisconsin and had
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: struggled socially for much of his life. Years later, psychologists
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: at the murder trial would disagree over exactly how his
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: developmental limitations affected his decision-making. Nick had been diagnosed with
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: autism spectrum disorder. A defense psychologist who evaluated him testified
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: that his IQ measured 82 and that he had significant
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: limitations in communication and social functioning. The prosecution's position was
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: that whatever limitations Nick had, he could still understand murder,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: make plans, consider consequences, and choose whether to participate. And
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: that distinction becomes extremely important later. But to Gypsy, Nick
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: was initially just the person who listened. And their relationship
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: became intense. Nick later described Gypsy as his soulmate. They
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: talked about marriage, children, and their future. About a year
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: into the relationship, Gypsy told him that she didn't actually
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: need her wheelchair. The two also created an elaborate fantasy
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: and sexual world together. There were BDSM elements and different
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: characters they used during roleplay. Gypsy had personas including Bella, Candy,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: and a darker character called Ruby. Nick had different sides too,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: including Victor, his darker evil persona, whom he described as
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: a vampire. These weren't necessarily separate personalities in a psychiatric sense.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: They were characters within the relationship. But eventually, they became
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: part of how Gypsy and Nick talked about violence. Initially,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: they considered other ways for Gypsy to escape. Running away, marriage.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: They even discussed having a baby, apparently thinking a pregnancy
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: might force Dee Dee to accept the relationship. Then, in
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: March of 2015, after more than two years of talking online,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: they finally met face-to-face. Gypsy and Dee Dee were going
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: to see the live-action Cinderella movie in Springfield. The plan
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: was for Nick to show up and pretend he was
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: meeting Gypsy for the first time, hoping Dee Dee might
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: naturally accept him. Gypsy dressed as Cinderella, Nick dressed as
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Prince Charming. Which is maybe the most Gypsy Rose plan imaginable.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Years of Disney and fantasy, and somehow the solution was,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: maybe mom will meet my boyfriend during Cinderella and everything
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: will work itself out. It did not. According to Gypsy,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee immediately disliked Nick and became angry about the
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: attention Gypsy gave him. The conflict reportedly continued for weeks.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Gypsy was 23 years old. She knew she could walk.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: She knew Dee Dee had lied about her age, and
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: she had already tried leaving once. And now, the relationship
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: she believed could become her escape that had been shut
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: down too. Gypsy later said she reached a point where
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: she believed there was only one obstacle left. Dee Dee.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: According to Gypsy, she asked Nick to kill her. And
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: she asked Victor, that darker side of him that they
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: had created together. And Nick agreed. This was not a
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: single impulsive conversation. They discussed the murder over time. How
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: Nick would get to Missouri, the weapon, what would happen afterward.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Some of the communications are particularly disturbing because murder planning
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: exists right beside sexual role-playing and fantasies about their future.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Before Dee Dee's murder, Nick did have one notable criminal incident.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: In 2013, police were called to a Wisconsin McDonald's after
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: customers reported he had spent hours watching pornography on a
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: laptop and touching himself inappropriately. Police also found a large
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: folding knife on him. Nick pleaded no contest to disorderly
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: conduct and the weapons charge was dismissed. It was disturbing behavior,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: but importantly, it was not a history of violent attacks.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: So when people ask what happened between Gypsy and Nick,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: there isn't a clean answer. Was Nick a vulnerable, isolated
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: person desperate for connection whom Gypsy manipulated? Was he a
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: willing participant whose violent fantasies were given an opportunity to
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: become real? Those things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Gypsy didn't
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: force Nick onto a bus. He had opportunities to say no.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: But Gypsy was the person asking him to kill someone.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: She knew Dee Dee's routine. She had access to the house.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: And she was going to make it possible for Nick
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: to get through the door. By June of 2015, this
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: was no longer fantasy. Nick was coming back to Missouri.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Gypsy would later testify that she and Nick considered different
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: ways Dee Dee might die. Eventually, the plan became simple.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Nick would travel to Springfield, Gypsy would let him into
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: the house, and Nick would kill Dee Dee with a knife.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Gypsy stole the knife from Walmart. She also stole money
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: from Dee Dee and sent Nick hundreds of dollars to
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: help cover his bus ticket, motel, and food. On June 10, 2015,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Nick arrived in Springfield and checked into a motel. Gypsy
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: and Dee Dee were at a medical appointment, so he waited.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: And that detail matters. There was no argument with Dee
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Dee that suddenly turned violent. Nick traveled hundreds of miles
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: knowing why he was there and then sat in a
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: motel waiting for Gypsy to tell him it was time.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: That night, after Dee Dee went to bed, Gypsy contacted Nick.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: He came to the pink house. Gypsy let him in.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: She gave him latex gloves, duct tape, and the knife.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Nick later acknowledged that even after entering the house, he
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: stopped and thought about whether he really wanted to go
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: through with it. And they continued. Gypsy and Nick had
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: even established a signal for after the murder. Three knocks
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: and two scratches on the bathroom door. Gypsy went into
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: the bathroom, sat on the floor, and covered her ears.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Nick entered Dee Dee's bedroom. She was asleep. At some point,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee woke up. Gypsy later said she heard her
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: mother scream and call her name. Gypsy. Again and again.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: But Gypsy stayed in the bathroom. Nick stabbed Dee Dee
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: repeatedly in the back. Investigators also described a wound to
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: the back of her neck. During the attack, Nick also
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: cut his own finger. He left the bedroom, went to
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: the bathroom, and told Gypsy. Then he went back. Eventually,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: everything became quiet. Three knocks. Two scratches. Gypsy came out.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Her mother was dead. The reality set in. There was blood,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: a body, a murder weapon, and two people who needed
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: to decide what to do next. Gypsy and Nick attempted
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: to clean blood from the hallway. They went into Dee
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Dee's room and took several thousand dollars in cash. They
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: changed clothes. Gypsy and Nick also had sex after the murder.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Their accounts of that encounter have differed. Nick has described
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: it as consensual. Gypsy has given a more complicated account,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: saying that although she agreed to sex, parts of the
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: encounter became frightening and crossed boundaries for her. We don't
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: need to get graphic about it, but what matters is
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: the bizarre collision between fantasy and reality. For years, they
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: talked about Dee Dee's death as if it would unlock
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: their future together. Now she was actually dead in the
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: room down the hall. Before Sunrise, Gypsy and Nick left
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: the house, took a cab, and went to Nick's motel.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Gypsy was walking. No wheelchair, no performance, no Dee Dee
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: beside her. But there was still a murder weapon. Nick
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: apparently wanted to take the knife with them. Gypsy worried
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: there could be metal detectors on the bus. So instead,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: they packaged the knife and mailed it. Directly to Nick's
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: house in Wisconsin. which is not exactly evidence of two
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: criminal masterminds. They had planned a murder for months and
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: then mailed the murder weapon to their destination. Eventually, they
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: boarded a Greyhound bus for Wisconsin. Gypsy moved through stations
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: and stores on her own feet, sometimes wearing wigs, while
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: everyone back in Springfield still believed she was wheelchair-dependent. And
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: for several days, nobody found Dee Dee. Gypsy later said
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: she became increasingly uncomfortable with the thought of her mother's
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: body simply lying in the house. She wanted someone to
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: find her. So, on June 14th, from Nick's home in Wisconsin,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Gypsy logged into the Facebook account she had shared with
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee, and then that post that just said, the
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: bitch is dead. Then came the second, much more graphic post.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Friends panicked, police were called, and Dee Dee was found.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: And because everyone still believed Gypsy was profoundly disabled, authorities
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: initially feared she had been abducted. But Gypsy had also
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: just handed police the digital trail that would lead straight
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: to her. Investigators traced activity from the Facebook account to
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Big Bend, Wisconsin and Nicholas Gojohn's home. Greene County authorities
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: contacted law enforcement there and requested a welfare check. After
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: a brief standoff, both Nick and Gypsy were taken into custody.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: And right away, one massive part of the story collapsed.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Gypsy walked. The supposedly wheelchair-dependent missing daughter was alive, physically mobile,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: and apparently in Wisconsin voluntarily. Back in Missouri, the news
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: stunned people who had known the family. Neighbors had pushed
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Gypsy's wheelchair, Charities had helped her. Friends had believed for
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: years that she was seriously ill. Now Dee Dee was dead,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: and apparently Gypsy had been lying about at least some
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: of it, too. Initially, it could have looked like mother
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: and daughter had simply been running an enormous scam together.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Then Nick started talking. He admitted stabbing Dee Dee, and
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: he told investigators that Gypsy had asked him to do it,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: that she had provided the knife and knew exactly what
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: was going to happen. He also acknowledged that he understood
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: killing Didi was wrong. Police recovered the knife the couple
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: had mailed to Wisconsin, and they had the digital trail.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: The travel, the motel, eventually the messages, and within days,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: the case had completely transformed. Not murdered mother and kidnapped
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: disabled daughter, but daughter and secret boyfriend accused of planning
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: the murder together. Both Gypsy and Nick were charged with
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: first-degree murder and armed criminal action. The public learned something else, too.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Gypsy wasn't even the age many people thought she was.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Early reports described her as 19, but she was actually 23.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: For Rod, learning Gypsy could walk was shocking, but in
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: one sense, also relieving. His daughter wasn't dying from the
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: collection of diseases he had spent years believing she had.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: But now she was facing a potential life sentence. And
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: when detectives sat Gypsy down to ask what happened, she
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: did not immediately tell the truth. Detective Stan Hancock began
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: with something basic. Gypsy's age. Gypsy gave her birthday as
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: July 27, 1995. Hancock had information showing 1991. Gypsy repeated
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: an explanation that sounded very familiar. Hurricane Katrina. Records were lost.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Paperwork got mixed up. She suggested she was 19. Her
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Medicaid information indicated she was 23. Even with Dee Dee
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: dead and Gypsy sitting hundreds of miles away, parts of
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: the story she'd grown up inside were still coming out
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: of her mouth. Then Hancock told Gypsy Dee Dee was dead.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: He asked whether she had anything to do with it.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Gypsy denied involvement and she became emotional. She said she
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: loved her mother and described Dee Dee as her best friend. Eventually,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Nick entered the story, but Gypsy initially tried to make
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: him responsible for much more than he actually was. She
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: suggested he may have hurt Dee Dee because she disapproved
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: of the relationship. Gypsy presented herself as someone whose boyfriend
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: had done something terrible and she hadn't expected it. But
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: the logistics didn't fit. She hadn't been kidnapped. She had
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: traveled with Nick voluntarily. She stayed at his house. They
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: had the IP address that the Facebook post came from there.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: And slowly her story shifted. Gypsy admitted Nick had killed
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee. But that's still very different from I asked
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: him to kill her, helped plan it, gave him the weapon,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: and let him inside. The bigger problem for Gypsy was
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: that Nick was being interviewed too. He initially told investigators
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: that Dee Dee had kicked Gypsy out and that he
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: had gone to Missouri to pick her up. But once confronted,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Nick admitted the central fact much more directly. He had
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: stabbed Dee Dee, and according to Nick, Gypsy didn't merely know,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: but she had asked him to do it. Where did
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: the knife come from? Gypsy. How did he enter the house? Gypsy.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Where was Gypsy while Dee Dee was killed? In the bathroom.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Did she know what was happening? Yes. Nick described Dee
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Dee waking, screaming, and calling Gypsy's name. There was the cleanup,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: the money, the motel, the bus, the knife, and then
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: there were the messages. Years of communication between Gypsy and
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Nick showed that the murder was not something he suddenly
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: decided to do after reaching Missouri. They had discussed it,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: planned it, talked about logistics and what would happen afterward.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Gypsy eventually admitted making the Facebook posts because she wanted
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Dee Dee's body found. She also acknowledged that she knew
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Nick was going to kill her mother, heard the attack,
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: and participated in the aftermath. And I think the interrogation
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: matters because it's tempting to imagine Gypsy escaping Dee Dee's
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: house and immediately saying, You don't understand what my mother
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: did to me. But that's not what happened. Her first
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: instinct was to control the story. That doesn't mean the
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: abuse wasn't real. But Gypsy had spent her entire life
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: watching Dee Dee manipulate what people believed. She had also
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: learned to present herself differently depending on the situation. The
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: sick child. The grateful charity recipient. The secret adult girlfriend.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: All of her characters, Ruby, Bella, Candy. And now, in
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: an interrogation room, she tried another version. This time, there
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: was too much evidence. Detectives could put Gypsy in one
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: room and Nick in another. They could compare stories, read messages,
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: trace travel. The murder case was strong. So both remained
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: charged with first-degree murder. And if the investigation hadn't stopped
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: at the murder itself, Gypsy could potentially have spent the
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: rest of her life in prison. But her attorney began
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: looking at the medical records. And suddenly, the legal system
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: was facing a much more complicated defendant. A woman who
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: had clearly helped plan a murder and who had also
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: appeared to have been severely abused for most of her life.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Gypsy's attorney, Mike Stanfield, has described meeting her in jail
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: and immediately noticing how different she looked from the person
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: in the photographs associated with the case. Those photographs showed
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: a profoundly disabled girl. the woman sitting across from him
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: could walk. She didn't have leukemia, muscular dystrophy. So Stanfield
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: started requesting medical records. There were years of appointments, medications, procedures,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: the feeding tube, the wheelchair, the seizures disorder. But there
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: were also test results that didn't support Deedee's story and Dr.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Flasterstein's old notes describing her as an unreliable historian. The
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: context of the murder changed dramatically. That did not legally
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: justify killing Deedee. Gypsy did not win a self-defense case.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: A jury did not decide Deedee deserved to die. Gypsy
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: pleaded guilty to murder. The question became how much the
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: years of abuse should affect her punishment. Prosecutors ultimately agreed
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: to reduce the charge from first-degree to second-degree murder. On
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: July 5, 2016, 24-year-old Gypsy entered her plea. She received
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: 10 years... in the Missouri Department of Corrections. Because second-degree
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: murder was classified as a dangerous felony, she had to
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: serve 85% before becoming eligible for parole. Greene County Prosecuting
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Attorney Dan Patterson made the state's position very clear. The
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: evidence established that Gypsy was guilty of murder. The killing
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: was not legally justified or excusable. But, The punishment also
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: had to account for what prosecutors described as nearly two
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: decades of systematic and purposeful abuse. And that distinction is
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: probably the heart of this case. Gypsy was abused. And
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: Gypsy participated in a murder. One fact doesn't erase the other.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: There were technically other options. She could have contacted police,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: called her father, told a doctor she could walk and
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: wasn't as sick as Dee Dee claimed. She could have
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: just left with Nick. But Gypsy also had already experienced
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: adults failing to intervene. She had tried leaving and was
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: brought back, and then supposedly abused after that. A physician
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: had questioned Dee Dee without stopping the situation. Authorities had
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: literally been in their house and left. So whether it
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: was rational or not, Gypsy appears to have reached a
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: point where she believed simply telling somebody wouldn't save her.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Prosecutors gave enormous weight to that history, but there was
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: still another defendant. Gypsy had received 10 years after admittedly
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: helping create the murder plan. Nick, the person she recruited
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: to physically carry it out, was still facing first-degree murder.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: And unlike Gypsy... he was going to trial. Nick Gojon's
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: trial began November of 2018. His attorneys weren't seriously arguing
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: that he hadn't killed Deedee. He had confessed. There was
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: physical evidence, the knife, the messages. The central legal question
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: was narrower. Did Nicholas Gojon deliberate before killing Deedee? Under
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Missouri law, first-degree murder requires deliberation, a period of cool
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: reflection before the killing, so not just like a an
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: impulse situation. The prosecution argued that he had clearly thought
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: about the murder and intentionally carried it out. Then, on
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: November 15th, Gypsy Rose Blanchard took the witness stand, and
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: she admitted something extremely important. The murder plan was hers.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: Gypsy testified that she came up with the idea of
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: killing Dee Dee. She said she had talked Nick into participating.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: She described stealing the knife, sending him money, planning his
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: trip and letting him into the house, and also waiting
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: in the bathroom while he killed her. She also described
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: the abuse. She said that led to believe the murder
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: was the only way she could escape. But Nick's attorneys
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: wanted the jury to focus on what his role in
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: that relationship meant. A forensic psychologist named Dr. Kent Franks
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: testified for the defense. He said Nick was on the
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: autism spectrum and had an IQ measured at 82. An
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: IQ of 82 is below average, but that doesn't automatically
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: mean someone can't understand right from wrong or be held
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: criminally responsible. The defense focused instead on Nick's communication difficulties,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: social limitations, and emotional immaturity. He had struggled to form relationships.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: He was intensely attached to Gypsy. And according to the defense,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: that made him unusually susceptible to her influence. If Gypsy
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: came up with the murder plan and persuaded Nick to
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: do it, how independently was he evaluating what she asked
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: of him? The prosecutor had a straightforward response. Nick had
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: months to think. He discussed killing Dee Dee before he
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: left Wisconsin. He traveled hundreds of miles, waited in a motel,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: went to the house, accepted gloves and a knife, and
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: even after entering, he stopped and considered whether to go
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: through with it. And then he did. Even Dr. Franks
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: acknowledged there had been deliberation. His point was that it
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: occurred within the limitations created by Nick's disorder. The state
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: called psychologist Dr. Robert Denny, who concluded whatever Nick's limitations,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: he still had enough mental capacity to contemplate and deliberate
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: about the murder. And the messages were extremely damaging. Nick
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: knew why he was coming to Missouri before he ever
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: boarded the bus. The jury had to decide whether that
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: amounted to first-degree murder. On November 16, 2018, after only
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: a few hours of deliberation, they found Nicholas Gojohn guilty
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: of first-degree murder and armed criminal action. Prosecutors had not
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: sought the death penalty. In February of 2019, Nick returned
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: for sentencing. He talked about desperately wanting love and connection
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: and described himself as having been blind in love. the
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: judge sentenced him to life in prison without the possibility
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: of parole for murder, plus 25 years for armed criminal
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: action running concurrently. And this is where the outcome becomes uncomfortable.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: Gypsy helped create the plan, selected the victim, obtained the weapon,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: paid for Nick's trip, let him inside, and received 10 years.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Nick physically committed the murder, and he received life without parole.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: There are legitimate legal reasons for the difference. Gypsy accepted
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: a plea agreement. Her extensive abuse history was considered extraordinary mitigation.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: And Nick went to trial on first-degree murder, and a
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: jury concluded he deliberated. But Nick had vulnerabilities too. He
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: had autism, cognitive and social limitations, extreme isolation, and an
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: intense attachment to Gypsy. So if Gypsy's psychological circumstances mattered
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: when deciding how responsible she should be held, how much
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: should Nick's have mattered? That doesn't make Nick innocent. He
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: stabbed Dee Dee to death. He knew killing her was wrong.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: But I think it's fair to ask whether life without
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: any possibility of parole is proportionate, especially when the person
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: who conceived the murder plan eventually got to go home.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: And maybe you think the sentences make complete sense. Gypsy
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: was Dee Dee's abuse victim. Nick wasn't. And Nick physically
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: killed her. Or maybe you think 10 years for Gypsy
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: was too little. Maybe you think life without parole for
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Nick was too much. Maybe both can be true. There's
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: no clean answer. And then, in December of 2023, Gypsy's
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: sentence effectively came to an end. So on December 28th, 2023,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: Gypsy Rose Blanchard walked out of the Chillicothe Correctional Center
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: in Missouri. She was 32. She had spent more than
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: eight years incarcerated. And before that, she spent most of
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: her life under Dee Dee's control. So Gypsy had almost
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: no experience simply existing as an independent adult. And now
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: she was free. Except she was also famous. While Gypsy
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: was incarcerated, her case exploded. Documentaries, interviews, podcasts, news specials.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: And in 2019, Hulu released The Act, which was a
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: dramatized version of her story. So Gypsy left prison and
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: almost immediately became a celebrity. Her social media following exploded.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: She appeared on television. People wanted to know what she wore,
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: who she dated, how she felt about Dee Dee, what
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: she regretted, and what she thought of the shows made
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: about her life. And there's something strange about that, considering
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: where this story began. As a child, Dee Dee created
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Gypsy's public identity. The sick girl, the cancer patient, the
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: inspirational survivor. Then Gypsy became known as something else. The murderer,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: the abuse victim. The woman who convinced her boyfriend to
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: kill her mother. After prison, she was once again living
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: in front of an audience. Only this time, Theoretically, she
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: had control over the version people saw. At the time
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: of her release, Gypsy was married to a Louisiana teacher,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: Ryan Anderson, whom she'd met while incarcerated. Within months of
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: her release, the marriage fell apart. She later reconnected with
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Ken Urker, another man she'd originally met through correspondence while
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: in prison. Gypsy and Ken had previously been engaged, separated,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: and then reunited after her release. In December of 2024,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: they welcomed a daughter, Aurora. Anne becoming a mother herself
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: adds an almost surreal final layer to a story that
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: has already revolved around motherhood. Gypsy's first model for motherhood
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: was Dee Dee, a woman who framed control as protection,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: who said everything she did was because she loved her daughter.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Gypsy has publicly spoken about wanting to break that cycle
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: with Aurora. In August of 2026, She shared that Aurora
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: began calling her mommy and said hearing the word directed
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: at her felt healing because of everything the word represented
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: in her own childhood. In June of 2025, Gypsy completed
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: her parole and her criminal sentence was officially behind her.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: As of 2026, she continues raising Aurora in Louisiana and
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: remains a public figure. Nicholas Gojon remains in prison. His
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: sentence is still life without parole. And that leaves us
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: with the question people keep trying to simplify. What exactly
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: was Gypsy Rose Blanchard? A victim? Yes. A murderer? Legally also, yes. Manipulated? Absolutely.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Capable of manipulating someone else? There's evidence that suggests that, too.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: People often want one of those facts to cancel out
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: the other. If Dee Dee horribly abused her, maybe Gypsy
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: was justified. If Gypsy planned a murder... Maybe the abuse
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: shouldn't matter. Neither version really works. Dee Dee appears to
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: have subjected her daughter to years of extraordinary medical abuse
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: and control. She deserved to be exposed. She deserved to
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: lose control over Gypsy. And she did deserve some consequences.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: But she did not deserve to be stabbed to death
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: in her sleep. But Gypsy deserved to escape, to know
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: how old she was, and to walk when she wanted
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: to walk. Eat normally, date somebody, leave home, become an adult.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: but she did not have the right to sentence her
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: mother to death. Those things can coexist. And then there's Nick.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: Not Dee Dee's abuse victim, but vulnerable in his own ways.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: A person who agreed to do something horrific because he
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: believed it would allow him to be with Gypsy. She
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: served a little more than eight years and is now
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: raising a child. He will likely die in prison. You
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: can understand the legal reasons for that difference and still
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: question whether it feels proportionate. Maybe the reason this case
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: has stayed so compelling is that nobody fits neatly into
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: one role. It's a story about what can happen when
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: abuse continues for years without meaningful intervention. When a doctor notices,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: but the system doesn't stop. When a child learns that
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: adults believe her mother. And when that child grows into
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: an adult who has learned some very unhealthy lessons about deception, control,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: and how to solve problems. Gypsy Rose Blanchard eventually did
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: escape Deedee. She just did it in the worst possible way.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: And underneath the documentaries, the TV shows, the memes, and
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: the celebrity, that's the part I think that is easiest
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: to lose. Before Gypsy Rose was a public figure or
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: an inmate, she was a little girl sitting in a
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: wheelchair that she didn't need. And along the way, multiple
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: adults had opportunities to ask why. They just never asked
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: loudly enough. And that is the extremely complicated case of
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Gypsy Rose Blanchard. Which means I now have approximately 700
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: additional questions about the American healthcare system, criminal justice system,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: and Facebook privacy settings in 2015. and why mailing a
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: murder weapon to your own house ever seemed like plan A.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: But the question I want you to answer for me,
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: do you think Gypsy's 10-year sentence was fair? And do
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: you think Nick's life sentence was fair? Because somehow those
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: two feel like completely different questions. As always, let me
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: know what you think and stay curious. Thanks for listening
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: to Cat Has Questions. If you liked this episode, Follow
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: the show and share it with someone who loves a
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: good spiral. See you next week.