Latest / WIPTHENRIP / Episode 3 - Kevin Ivester

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Episode 3 - Kevin Ivester · WIPTHENRIP

• Ryan: Hi everyone, I'm Sydney. And I'm Ryan. And this is our video podcast called Whip. Then Rip. And for our third guest, we have Kevin Ivester, owner of Ivester Contemporary. And currently he has a group show on until September 5th called Summer Break. If you want to support us, like this video and subscribe to our channel, you can also join our Patreon at patreon.com/slash whip then rip. Either at the grower tier for one dollar or the gutsy tier for five dollars. Stay tuned and see how our conversation goes. So gripes is what's frustrating, broken, or irritating in art and culture right now to you. Just talking to other people who are in the nonprofit world specifically is just about like where do we get support as artists? How, you know, does everything need to be commercialized in order to be good? Who is the work that we're making for? For I was talking to Heidi Schmalbach yesterday, for instance, and she was explaining to me, which I didn't really know, that a lot of art and culture funding in Austin comes from our hot taxes, which is like hotels, occupancy, so tourism. And in order to get that money when you're writing grants, the work that you do or the programming that you make ⁓ needs to be for tourism. Like a big portion of your audience needs to be tourists. So the work that's being made in Austin isn't even for Austin. It's for people visiting Austin. And I think that that just sort of spins out into a larger conversation about trust in art and artists. And I think that we live in this sort of like culture of We don't want to give things out for free. We don't want our people to be able to access money or resources if they're not going to use it in the way that we think is the right way to use it or is valuable to us. And it's not compatible with making art and the creative process and all the time that it takes to think. I mean, there's an I I wanna say Caprice Perucci, she's an artist ⁓ that I used to work with. ⁓ she makes amazing work and she was talking about a fellow professor who ⁓ was trying to apply for a sabbatical, I think. And he was a poet. And ⁓ to apply for that sabbatical, he needed to list out what he was gonna do with his time. And as a poet, he was like, go for a walk, you know, think. ⁓ you know, and and those are all things that it's so difficult to quantify and then like translate into value. Like Money. You're making me think about how especially in Austin, so there's the tourism aspect of it, but even within the kind of commercial sphere that I would say you're more in, right? I feel like it's an interesting spot to be in because everything that you're talking about, I think about all the time. Where it's like I had somebody say to me, you know, I don't really want to pay for somebody to just go to Barton Springs. And I was like, Why not? you know. Like I do. I kinda like I wish we lived in a society where we provided enough for each other that there was leisure time and that that was a priority. And there's something that I'm kind of curious about of like how like the clientele, the people who are coming to the gallery and actually buying work, do you feel like those are people who are more in like sort of the hustle culture? more of the the word I was gonna say is manosphere because I'm thinking about like the the things that have happened since lockdown, you know, and the way that like a certain type of culture has really entered. It's that, but then also tech. I don't know. So just any insights cause I think on the nonprofit side there's a version of that which is really interesting because it's like how do we get more people here? And then it's like once people are here, who's actually going to the gallery and spending money? Never mind. I mean Just looking too. Yeah. I mean, I I I just I I can't help but like back up when answering that question and think about what I view as like a purposeful control of our time and hustle culture, like everything does need to be productive. Like if you're not being productive, you're being lazy. You know, even being creative can is viewed as lazy. Yeah, I mean, not long ago I think that we all can look back and think to ourselves, it feels like we had more time before. It it feels like I could go to Barton Springs where I don't like have time to go to Barton Springs. It doesn't feel like and I don't know where that time's really going or anything. And we have all these tools to speed production. And I think that we're all getting so much more work done than we've ever gotten done before. And it is a question about like who has access to leisure time and why. how and labor compared to capital and so I don't know. I mean, I'm not an economist and and I'm not a a like a strategist, a political strategist or anything, but I it just feels malicious to me. ⁓ but I'll say like as far as people that actually walk into the gallery and look at R and and I sell work to, let's say, like people are good people. Sure. I think that we're all sort of living in a system. And things almost feel like we're all like kind of caught up in this river and nothing's we can't make conscious choices and step back. And I think about it a lot with like my business or you know, the gallery or the frame shop. And it's like there's a there's such a big difference between me working at the gallery and working at the frame shop and then working on the business, like being able to to strategize and and take a step back. And that's so hard to do. But I do think that right now the people who are working Whose position just happens to be working on something compared to working in something are the people that have more time. There's also this really strange thing about ⁓ monetizing artwork or like commercializing artwork and who gets rewarded financially for the work that they do. It's kind of arbitrary and it it just happens to be like paintings can be sold. And Performance is difficult to monetize. So, you know, where these lines are drawn feel very arbitrary to me and it makes me think a lot about value and time and work and labor and how the reward system for everything just feels a little fucked up. Yeah. You're making sort of a classic distinction there between owners and workers, right? And you're occupying this interesting lane where you're doing both, right? You were both a worker and also an owner. That sounds like yeah, it's the sort of conceptual work versus the nose to the grindstone. And I know that maybe not in the frame shop, but in the gallery, that probably looks I would imagine there's a lot of work that is exhausting that you almost wouldn't expect to be. Where it's a lot of socializing, a lot of being in conversations like these, I would imagine kind of constantly, right? ⁓ it certainly could happen. Yeah. ⁓ you know, people walk into the gallery and and and last time you guys were in, I was sort of explaining that like there is the opportunity for me to be in, you know, multiple hour long conversations a day because and I and I just have to refrain from that. And I'm still learning how to do that too. It's really hard to like 'cause I'm interested in the people that walk into the gallery. And I'm interested in talking about the work that's on the walls and we do that a lot. ⁓ but then it's like there's other things to do. And and it's surprising. I mean I think people walk into galleries and they look at the people sitting at their computer working and they're like, What could they possibly be doing? And ⁓ it's just like incredibly varied work and it's probably like any creative project where it's everything from inventory to future planning to doing admin work and, you know, ⁓ trying to figure things out with my landlord or something. Yeah, there's just a lot of labor. ⁓ but that's just like every company. and yeah, a gallery is just a a regular business. I used to not think that until I joined this group of other business owners that were describing their own pain points and, you know, things that they deal with in the business and and I just started to realize like, ⁓ The art world is actually I mean it's a business. But I wonder as far as that idea of kind of converting, right? The idea of like converting an interaction into a sale. This area that is less tangible or a little bit ultimately it's about feeling, right? It's about emotions, it's about, you know, and I suppose you could make that argument about any product, right? That if you walk into a whatever Prada store or something and you see a particular handbag or something, ⁓ you have an emotional reaction to it to some degree. But there's also I think there are a lot of other things going on there that aren't necessarily going on when you buy a work of art. And so I wonder like, even though I I hear you on the point that it is it functions like any other business, I wonder how you think about that kind of slippery creative space, that slippery sort of poetic space, right? Of like you mentioned a poet before. It's like you're sort of trafficking in poems. You know? And so like how do you think about selling poems? I guess is really what I'm asking. Well it's so funny that you bring up like prod and handbag specifically. A friend of mine just, you know, turned me onto this podcast called Acquired, I think it's called and it's I'm listening to this episode. It's really long. It's like a four-hour long episode about Hermaze and the history and how ⁓ you know, as you step into like the luxury direction, utility stops being the thing that scales the value. You know, you don't need like more zippers and on your handbag, and that is what will make it more expensive. Like it's a it's it's a new access in the art world too. I mean, this goes back to like is performance valuable? Can you commercialize it? Will somebody buy a painting? ⁓ well, yeah, people will buy paintings. a a painting, but will they buy that painting? Why not? You know what I think people are selling is a feeling or like the the the collector's ideal self for how they want to see themselves and ideas that they're interested in. And you know, I was actually just thinking recently about ⁓ it's hard because I like I wanna I want to sort of protect all the things that I learn, I learn through artists that I work with. And I'm in this position in which I work with like many different artists. So I get to kind of tap into their thinking and what they're making and ⁓ what the reaction to the work that they make will be from so many different perspectives, which is awesome. And I feel like I have this amazing opportunity to learn about these things. And so but but there's one artist who's a painter and they frame their work in these wooden frames. And I And I just starting to recognize that, you know, paintings in a wooden frame appeal to like one subset of people and that paintings the same painting in a silver frame ⁓ or like a gold leaf frame appeals to somebody else. And and like if you imagine a painting, just like visualize a painting in a wooden frame in a home, what does the rest of that home look like? And that's a type of person. Right. And then imagine a s a painting in a steel industrial welded frame. Same painting. Like what does that home look like? And who is that person? And who are they trying to be? How are they expressing themselves through their collection? You made me think about two different things. One is okay, yes, I think that that's really interesting. And it's making me think about when I was doing display work and you know who it is that you're trying to appeal to. And so it makes me wonder whether or not you have target audience, right? And then my other question is, you know, how, you know, the project space sort of interacts with that question and, you know, if it's evolved or changed, you know, since the beginning, 'cause it's been six years now, right? Well, every creative project evolves over time. Sure. ⁓ and and I think the gallery for me is my creative project and it's certainly evolving and I'm learning things and you know, I'm under new pressures or have let go of old pressures ⁓ and things that like are affecting my my mindset and ⁓ you know what I value, ⁓ what I'm interested in right now. I'm constantly trying to like balance between I need to keep the lights on in the gallery and I want to show the work that I care about. ⁓ and that I think needs to be shown. And you know, the balance to put it like really simply is like I get to show work that I love and I don't get to show all the work that I love. Sure. ⁓ so it is sort of like making choices. ⁓ and that curation also is affected by what is this gallery doing? You know, I I've opened up a different gallery in the past. you know, in the middle of Ivaster Contemporary, I had it for a year and it showed completely different work. And the work that I showed there was appropriate there and the work that I show here is appropriate here. And and I think that ⁓ you know, one thing that I try to maintain like my own path, like I want to be genuine about what I do. I don't I I didn't go into the art world into opening a gallery so I could make as much money as possible. Sure. And that's avail I think that through the arts that's absolutely available for you, but like your intentions are different and you know, you're making choices based off of different things. I'm sort of making choices based off of my own tastes and things that I care about. Just like an artist, you know, might happen to make work that's very commercial. You know, I I sort of I sort of just have to accept that the work that I find important and the work that that is appropriate for my gallery is going to be a certain level of commercial. ⁓ but it's gonna be sort of where it falls. Well that's sort of what I was getting at is I'm curious, and and maybe it's not an entirely fair question, but I'm curious like if you kind of have a description in your own mind of the aesthetic that you have as a gallery. ⁓ and then also are you trying to appeal to both the wooden frame crowd and the gold leaf frame crowd, or is there, you know, sort of a space that you identify as being singular for you? when I opened the gallery, I was showing a lot of performance and video and I still, you know, have that as a part of what the gallery does. But ⁓ I did a lot of thinking last summer and I discovered that like the thing that I'm currently really interested in happens to be like these three guiding stars that I have for myself and what Ivers to contemporary is is process, experimentation, and joy. Mm-hmm. ⁓ being like an underpinning theme in all the work that I show. So I found myself showing like a lot of ceramics and textile work and, you know, artists who are using their mid medium in a like sort of a a unique way in and sort of experimenting either through the medium or the the process. ⁓ you know, I think about Emilio, for instance, and how he's stacking paints. ⁓ you know, it's a it's not just you you described it as almost sculpting, ⁓ or pushing it in that direction. I I will say that like you know, I have been affected by the realities of ⁓ like financial pressure and knowing that as much as I really want to show performance art. Like I know that that time period in which I'm showing performance art, like I'm taking a massive hit, not even a risk. Like I know that I'm sacrificing. I wanted to ask you how you ground yourself during those times if the art market is not doing well. Yeah. Well, it's really hard. I mean, there's like over the course of I'm probably just like every business, over the course of those six years, like I've had plenty of ups and downs. ⁓ and downs can be super ⁓ scary. ⁓ and the ups can feel like, ⁓ this is gonna last forever. And so how I ground myself is I think all galleries and all businesses go through that. And the scary part about the art world is there is sort of this desire to keep up with the Joneses and to be able to move into that new space or ⁓ you know, spend a little bit more money more money on your events. ⁓ and it's easy to do that when the money's good. ⁓ And it's but so I I just don't do that. I mean, I I'm I'm really focused on this gallery being here in thirty years and me being able to slowly grow. So, you know, I'm just super careful with with my money as much as I can be. And, you know, owning the frame shop, opening the frame shop, ⁓ you know, at the same time that I opened the gallery, ⁓ it certainly saved me times and it's weird because the like sales are so volatile. so up and down and I can have like an incredible month and then like have a terr terrible month and art sales and the frame shops just kind of steady. So but for me it's all about not overplaying my hand and not getting too excited and spending money just because I have it. ⁓ so being patient and like financially savvy is something that I'm always working on. Can I go back to something that you said about ⁓ like People coming to the gallery and buying the work. You said people are people, which I really love how you said that. But I guess I'm thinking about how I feel I've perceived sometimes if work sells is not always, but people have to know the artist's name. And I guess I'm questioning how important do you feel that is? Cause I know that, you know, if some people really like a painting or a piece of work, they'll they'll buy it just because they love it. But other people, I do think it is that brand that they they're collectors. So it is based off of like how well known the artist is. So I guess my question is is how how ⁓ not maybe not valid, but do you find that that happens in your space too? It certainly can happen. ⁓ but I don't think that it happens as much as it seems like it happens. And I will say that, you know, artists who have sort of built a name for themselves, I don't think that that discredits the work. And I think it's really difficult to build a name for yourself and to get that name. And I think that only comes through making work that's really good. Right. ⁓ I don't think that you can completely bullshit yourself into a position where people walk into the gallery, they see the name and they're like, ⁓ I want this. I think at higher levels, maybe where there's like more money behind PR and marketing and storytelling ⁓ that's possible for sure. Like, you know, off the top of my head, I can think about artists that do that. Yet I will say that, you know, they built I think about Damian Hirst. I hate the work that he makes. ⁓ but, you know, his older work back in the nineties, I think it was the nineties, ⁓ was genuinely good ⁓ and interesting and valuable. ⁓ and now he's just sort of like, I'm like, what are you doing with your life? Like why? ⁓ You know, I I don't know how a person goes from making that to this, but he built that brand for himself. and that takes hard work and to keep that engine moving, even though the work is bad. You know, when an artist who is either well known or not well known makes work, that's there's work that that people can make that are just undeniably really impressive and people want it. Right. And that's the work that I sell, I feel like. You know, people see it and That's the work that does the best. ⁓ you know, there's certainly people yeah, mean it's just like I think about, you know, the work that Anya Mullaviatis makes or Hyan Searle makes or others too, ⁓ that I'm so lucky to work with who they make work that is so beautiful, visually impressive, thought provoking, ⁓ clearly labor intensive. ⁓ it's like undeniably valuable and people want it. So that's I it's just at at this gallery's level. That's what does the best. What you're saying about Damien Hurst, I agree. And I think he's able to, I would imagine on his side, he knows things are gonna sell. And some of the time I think he's having fun. I don't know that he consciously knows he's making shitty work, right? ⁓ but it does make me think about, funny enough, Tim Burton, who I think about how Tim Burton movies in the late 80s and 90s were so unique. And actually I would put Wes Anderson kind of in this category too, where once that brand is developed, then all of a sudden you I don't know, almost hold on to it, right? And feel and and that I maybe that's actually to Damian Hurst's credit, is that he's not still just doing, you know, animals and formaldehyde, and at least he's doing different things. If it's good, you know, is another question. You know, I find Tim Burton and increasingly Wes Anderson's newer films to be kind of hard to watch. And it has become all art direction. And I think, you know, it gets back to that same question about workers and owners and the incentives of labor. Because I think from an artist perspective, of course, you are chasing something that is so outside of any market. It right. It's all about chasing something that your soul needs, feeding your soul, right? So to then put that in a space and ask somebody else to somehow not only be okay with it, but love it and even spend money on it is tricky. There is an element that I think about also like music. You know, you might hear a song the first time and you're like, this sucks. With kids, you'll find this in a couple of years, Kevin. Certain songs will be playing in the car and you're But then Baby Shark just starts to sound good. I mean baby shark is a is a jam, but we're on to ⁓ weird stuff. ⁓ but ⁓ actually some of it's good. Do you know who Hatsuni Miku is? It's a holographic character that sings Japanese. but There's certain songs that, you know, I'll hear them a few times and I'm like, this is so bad. And then by the like third, fourth, fifth time I'm singing along, you know, and just like have accepted it. And I think that that's a piece of just human psychology, right? It certainly is. I mean, I like you see it ⁓ in the visual art world quite a bit too. You know, if a new artist comes along and they're making art that looks like art, that also does well, you know. this is where like the sort of knockoff artists they can make a lot of sales and there's a safety in that and I think that it does come through repetition and comfort and ⁓ you know when you're confronted with a new musician, it can be jarring if they're doing something really different or visual artist. It can be jarring. To like it or to be a tastemaker, you know, takes a lot of confidence, I should say. Like you just have to be super tapped in. And that that makes me kind of think back to you know, the Damian Hurst question and he's not making animals and formaldehyde anymore. But that it was the good work. And sometimes artists have a moment and that moment isn't just because they caught some they caught s some genius wave. Like they caught some some wave from outside of themselves or inside of themselves. And, you know, it doesn't last in everybody forever. And that's okay. You know, I and I I think oftentimes like There may be a time where I start to become less engaged in the visual art scene and p like paying less attention. And I might start programming bad exhibitions. And, you know, maybe that's a signal that I need to step away. But it's also, you know, then if I do it for twenty years, I could potentially put anything on my walls. And through the o my own reputation that I could build, people will believe it. It's like that, you know, emperor is wearing ⁓ no clothes kind of thing. People are comfortable following others. And it's it's really hard to like be a tastemaker and have your own confidence and to step out on that new song for the first time. And this is you know, I think there's the whole early adopter thing, right? And in thinking about music, it's like usually there will be at least when things come about organically, there will be a small crowd that appreciates what somebody is doing and then gradually people catch on. I don't know if you followed the geese controversy ⁓ with that band. But there was recently a thing where it was like this band out of Brooklyn blew up and it w everyone thought it was this very organic thing, and then it comes out, you know. Of course, there was a PR team behind it. And people felt slighted somehow because they like, ⁓ no, I thought I was part of this organic thing, but in fact, you know, I was being ⁓ marketed to good band, by the way. That's super interesting now. Yeah. It like that's so interesting because I I don't think that it discredits the quality of the work at all. I mean, it just because it reached you a d ⁓ less organic way, I mean, that is my whole job as a gallerist, is to be able to market artists and to be able to leverage the gallery's reputation and the work that I've done for the past six years to be able to put an artist's work in front of an already engaged audience and to grow that in the future. And just because You know, if I meet an artist ten years down the line and let's say my gallery is in a different place than it is now, ⁓ just because I show their work doesn't mean that work's bad. And I see this actually in collectors, visual art collectors who, you know, they look at the gallery as kind of a sellout thing or the gallery is taking money in ways that they don't really deserve. And it's like This is a team sport. I like I I totally view the art world as a team sport. And it's like the relationships that you have and the work that you've put in and the the time that you spent with people has currency. And it's still a whole different conversation to translate that into actual sales and financial stability because you can have a huge PR team behind you, but if your work isn't good, nobody's gonna buy it. Yeah. Right. So it goes both ways. It's interesting. You're making me think about I don't know if y'all know. Arl Schmidt's work. ⁓ She does these not collages, but drawings of cigarette butts and you know bananas that turn into penises and stuff. It's like very kind of punk and gritty. But I j I didn't realize. I I've known her, I feel like I read about her in a magazine 15, maybe more years ago. And I only just realized that she has never had a gallery. And so, you know. You brought up two questions for me. One is like kind of how you see that ⁓ team sport aspect in the current ecosystem with social media and everything else. Cause she, I I mean, without knowing the details, I would assume that would have been a lot harder to do without social media and the internet. But then the other, maybe more important question that I'm really just ⁓ interested in is how you think about artists. who are in your stable who then want to take a pivot. You know, so if they're selling and they have a particular aesthetic, something that does work, what happens when all of a sudden they're like, I'm gonna make the cigarettes and dick's paintings or whatever? Well, I mean, the way that I work with artists is I I mostly try to identify people that ⁓ have similar values and a a standard. For their own work that I believe in. So they could pivot in any direction. And I would still believe in the pivot because I believe in them and their own standards for their own work. So I don't care if an artist wants to pivot. But this whole conversation about like artists who want to do it on their own compared to working with a gallery, or I think an ⁓ really more important pivot is a pivot away from a gallery or away from me, which has happened. ⁓ And I and I think that, you know, Sydney and I have talked about this before, like the gallery artist relationship for me at least, I don't know if it's this way with every gallery. It's like I am a person and a business. And there's two different sort of entities here. And the business relationship that we have is one thing, and the personal relationship that we have is another thing. And, you know, sometimes they cross over and sometimes they don't. And you know, sometimes we're best friends and sometimes you know, you live in another state and I don't see much of you and all the things in between and it's like, I don't know, being in a classroom or something. It's like you're gonna be super close with some people for September through November and and then like, you know, things happen and and I think that it's just so important to recognize that just like you might catch that flame of like a really incredible creative project and then that dries up or continues, you know, relationships do the same. I've moved on from artists and artists have moved on from me. And in my mind, ⁓ it can be uncomfortable, but it's not a personal attack and it's not a personal thing. We're doing different creative projects, we're in different times. There's bunch of like video artists, for instance, whose work I've shown, and it's like, you know, I could keep showing your work, but I'm not gonna be able to propel your career forward. You need to show with, you know, different types of spaces. I don't have the audience for you. that's gonna help you. ⁓ and vice versa, by me showing your work, like it's not helping me either, ⁓ in what my own goals are. So it's this like really weird cross section between goals at the moment, how goals change, artists' work changes over time, and respect for each other. ⁓ and recognizing that it's not personal, yeah, but it's just, you know, I I think that communication and talking things out is also really important. Your gallery has been open for six years now, but did you ever struggle like not taking it personally at the beginning? ⁓ I I can still struggle with that. Right. It can still hurt, you know? ⁓ it can still be hard and uncomfortable. And there's certainly been times where I feel like people have completely misunderstood me. I've been ghosted. You know, all the things. So yeah, totally. It's it's ⁓ It's a weird thing. I I would imagine just like every sort of like creative endeavor, like you can have really good days and you can have really bad days. Right. I mean, I did want to bring up our conversation that we had on Zoom the other week. Like I was telling you that I talk to a lot of artists who work with different galleries, and even my old professors and mentors, I feel a lot of people have embedded in my brain to not trust the gallery. And so we sort of talked about that. And the unspoken tension that an emerging artist feels working with galleries and like just processing this whole relationship. And so being transparent has been really helpful. And I don't know if every artist can do this with any gallery out there. Like I don't think that the way that you handle situations is how any other gallery would handle situations, which also makes this whole art world really complex because it depends on Who you're engaging with and like who is on your side. I think that it's like every relationship. It's like dating a new person. They could cheat on you. They could ghost you. That like things can go wrong and protecting yourself as an artist, especially an emerging artist, or it not even an emerging artist, every stage of artists. Like you are giving your work to somebody and it disappears into their gallery for you know a few months, let's say. Like you don't really know what's going on with that. And, you know, I I would say that for artists, like it's important that you keep tabs on things and you really know where your work is and who's in control of your work. And I need to continually prove to people who I am through my actions. And if I make a mistake or something, ⁓ I would hope that people would give me a second chance, let's say. But you know, if I continually make mistakes, ⁓ you know, maybe something else is going on. ⁓ and I and I just think that it's a it's a help it's healthy to be a bit suspicious of the people you're in business with. And and you know, then like you and I are are friends too. ⁓ you know, that's a different thing. And I could also be super rude to you at ⁓ you know, something and you would be like, I'm not actually that close to him anymore. Like I don't I don't want to be friends with him. I don't like how he treated me. You know, all of these things are true. So I think it's good advice. And also just like on a on a personal level, you know, it as a gallerist, it's such an interesting dynamic because there is, unfortunately, in the artist and gallery relationship, I feel like there's always that dynamic that is something layered over the personal relationship. You know, there's a complexity that exists there. You asked me if I've ever had times where it's been really hard to like, I don't know, like have these conversations or something. And I think it's I also need relationships that exist outside of the art world so that I can have my own space from it. It's a very passionate space for me too. ⁓ and and people can also cross my own boundaries. Right. You know, in ways. ⁓ so it's just super touchy and confusing and weird and and yeah, ⁓ just I like I love transparency and I love, you know, communicating and And trying to be open and there's certainly times where like I don't get good news from an artist or an artist doesn't get news good news from me. Right. And ⁓ like trying to to keep those two they just they do cross and they and people's feelings do get hurt and things do happen and it's just like it's unfortunately a hard place to be. And I do think that it's a little bit different than other businesses because if you fire your plumber, they're not gonna be like, ⁓ my god, like I miss But like but like artists, I mean, you know, I've worked with both of you guys. Like we talk about real things and we get into, you know, the depths very quickly. Right. So like you have to open yourself up to a certain degree pretty quickly and lay yourself out there. And I'm like constantly in awe and honored that I get that. insight into people. And I learned so much. I love what artists do. And and like I the the artists that I show, like I I believe what they're saying. And ⁓ so it just makes it all that much harder. It was making me think I was thinking about this last night and thinking about how I'm sure I said to you back in 2020 when we met that I feel like something I've really appreciated about your handling of the space. And I think something that's changed. Like I'm thinking particularly of everybody involved in Friends Fair. There is a professionalized aspect that I found lacking prior to the sort of arrival or emergence of certain galleries. And so I think that that balance is a really interesting to thing to think about because I want to say this more than it's even really a question, but I I just have thought about how The flip side of that, particularly in a very regional art scene, is that there is a lack of professionalism because people don't realize that they are a plumber on some level, right? And so all of a sudden there are decisions that are being made from this interpersonal place and not from a place of professionalism and also even a place of being rooted in the quality of the work and and some of those other things that you referred to before. And so there is something very specific to your gallery, of course, which is the fact that it is in Central Texas. And Central Texas is not thought of as, you know, a major hub for the art world yet. ⁓ but I feel like you are involved in a lot of the striving to ⁓ and success already in in making it more of a a focal point. Yeah, I mean I You know, you bring up Friends Fair for instance. And it's like these are all galleries and gallerists that like I respect on so many levels and the work that they show is amazing and you know the impact that they have on our city is amazing and and I love my relationship with them personally. It's quite professional. Like we get shit done and we have really concise meetings and ⁓ you know, we're all busy. So I think that we all have so many relationships with artists. And collectors and you know, like those those types of conversations can be so nuanced and you need to be really thoughtful with what people are saying and what you're saying to artists because they are opening themselves up on a personal level. And then when I speak to the, you know, people at Friends Fair, for instance, my collaborators there, like, we can get down to like just this is strictly business and we all sort of understand that and it does open up a door for professionalism and like We're all friends too. There's just like this sort of professional respect that I have for all of them and I feel from them for me and I really appreciate that. And as much as like I would love to live in a world in which like we're all having fun all the time and like doing cool, cute things, like we ⁓ we have to make money and like this is a business and I have a family to support and this is my livelihood. So, you know, I treat it like that too. ⁓ so it's it's again, it's like this flip-flop between having the conversations that I genuinely like more, which are like the really personal conversations and and learning from artists and have generative conversations with them and push them forward to the other side, which is like, let's get shit done. It's fun. When you started six years ago, did you ever feel pushback from other art spaces that had already existed in Austin. Did you ever have a feeling of others thinking like, who is this guy? And he's just started a gallery? Or did you feel automatically embedded and welcomed in the Austin area? Because I mean, me and Ryan have talked about it from the artist perspective, how maybe sometimes we go to openings locally. I don't know if it's intentionally we feel unwelcomed, but there is definitely click energy or if you're not popping off or something, it feels like there is this weird energy and it's not always welcoming. And it's I I don't think that it's always like rainbows and like a beautiful community, even though we all want it to be. And so I guess I wanted to ask you if you've ever felt that. I think it like it takes me a lot to be embarrassed. And I don't know. Like I I like I'm like in my own world. ⁓ Kind of. And ⁓ I think that it serves me in some ways and sometimes it it doesn't. And you know, I think that I I learned a long time ago, like when I was a kid, that like some people like me and some people don't. And I try to be respectful and nice to everybody that I meet and I like people a lot. Like I really do genuinely like meeting people and learning about people and I would spend all day like talking to people if I could. So I just try to be me and and show up the way that I want to show up. And I think that ⁓ you know, that takes a certain level of confidence in my own taste and what I'm doing. And it's like I showed up and when I opened my spacey canopy, I was like, I cannot wait to open my doors. Like I have such a badass group of artists that have agreed to show with me. That's all I felt. And I was just like, I can't wait for for Austin to see this project and and to be able to do all the things. Like I wasn't interested in you know, what other people were gonna think. And I and I and I think that there is also this mm nuance to it where it's like, I'm also not trying to be cool. Like I'm in business and ⁓ I'm trying to present serious work. And there's a lot of cool work like that I I actually quite like that I couldn't sell. And doesn't go with my gallery. You know, and that like in the other direction. You know, I don't want to discredit what I'm doing because there's also a lot of work that I know I could sell really well. That it and and it's like ⁓ it just it's just not what I'm doing. I think that the work that I that the gallery gets the opportunity to show and the artists that I get to work with, like they're amazing what they do. I'm just like trying to put on badass shows. ⁓ that's all I'm focused on. ⁓ and it's kind of like a y build it in the old com mentality. ⁓ like that's what I believe. I'm like I just gotta keep my head down and try to do the best work that I can do and people will like it. Or not, and then I go out of business. Yeah, I I think we're talking about a few tensions that are probably a bigger project of ⁓ whip than rip, because you know, I think that when we're talking about, you know, what work can kind of communicate and sell to a general audience, right? Some of what we were talking about, I feel like ⁓ from an artistic perspective, it can feel like, like you said before, the innovators are not necessarily going to be recognized right away, right? And and in fact, I think that when one looks back at art history, ⁓ all of the movements and the artists that we love the most are the ones who were initially rejected. And so I think w w we just generally ⁓ in you know the art world are struggling with that question because it it's hard to get work in front of people, I think, if it is truly subversive or truly ⁓ new. And I mean, not even just the art world is too small. I think it's a bigger ⁓ sort of cultural problem. And then I think the question, you know, about being in different spaces is also one that we're not gonna solve in one conversation, right? But I do think it's very related in the sense that some of the best artists are also near shut ins. And you know, their ⁓ tendency to go out and be in some of these spaces, and to take the time to ingratiate themselves to any given ⁓ gallery or gallerist. I I often think that that's this way that I I don't know how in the world this would function, but I often think about how I'm like, I wish there was enough speaking of time, time for galleries to almost like go and scout, you know, and just like be out on the ground and and and find the people who are hiding in some hovel somewhere and just making this brilliant work. Cause I I think there is a social I don't know about you guys, but I I think about being in the art room in high school when I was a kid, right? And how it's like we were the weirdos who were like, you know, off to the side. We weren't the ones who were out necessarily socializing. And so I think even that social aspect of it. It's on the one hand, art is all about communication. On the other hand, part of the reason I think artists communicate through art is because they're not necessarily social butterflies, right? So like I said, I think these are just tensions that exist, and perhaps like it is the tension itself that is going to create interesting outcomes. Maybe that's a reason we should move on to the next category. Okay, so the next category is the good stuff. What feels exciting, alive, or worth paying attention to right now, Kevin? On on certain days the world can feel so dark. But at the same time, I feel like Austin has so much like energy right now. And I feel like the art world in Austin specifically is actually doing quite well and it just feels like things are progressing and moving and evolving and changing and there's new galleries coming to town and you know, I think that there's a lot of really like exciting projects that are bubbling and I mean I'm from the northeast. I didn't know anything about Austin and Texas and, you know, I'm from Massachusetts specifically. So like the artwork that I saw growing up was pretty conservative, a lot of boats, you know, a lot of rocky shorelines. ⁓ and it had its thing. Like it was very regional. And one of the strengths of like New York, for instance, is that ⁓ there's so many influences flooding into New York. And I think that's a strength of Austin too. Like people are moving here from all over the place. And yet Texas is at this intersection of like really important political and social conversations in in the US right now. And I just think that the Austin aesthetic or message or you know, like what we're doing here is yet to be determined. And that's a super exciting place to be. You could ask me like month to month where I think things are and and what we're making and ⁓ it would change. And you know, I I think that like a overall flair of Austin historically has been this DIY thing. But there is a level of professionalism that I think is being forced on the city, for better or for worse. But you know, I think that a lot of the issues that artists, even in the DIY space, have had historically. is that Dallas, Houston, the co this country hasn't taken Austin seriously enough because the work being made in those spaces is like amazing. And it's the package that they're being presented in that people can't see through, because, you know, that's their own problem. But I I and I think that the the sort of layer of professionalism sort of entering Austin is good for everybody, actually. ⁓ and it's certainly ⁓ me you know, a little bit of growing pains maybe. It's really expensive ⁓ to be here and it there's a lot of financial pressure. But I think that that's something that's more national to or even global, it seems like. I don't really know. but it it feels like everybody's feeling like that. So I don't know if I can like say that this is an Austin issue, though it certainly is also an Austin issue. But I I just like am very energized and excited by the quality of work, the variety of work, the collaboration. And the energy in Austin is like pretty electric actually, I think. First off, I agree. and I think it'll be interesting to sort of see where everything heads, but ⁓ you were making me think about how it was exciting to me to see Carlos' in the space along with Emilio's. And I'm thinking too about McClennon's presentation during the Friends Fair, because there were some political gestures and I I think it ties back to what we were talking about before too, where that is along with the concern around ⁓ innovation within art, right, there is fear and hesitation around addressing in a direct way the political. And so, you know, I don't know, I guess I'm curious because I think you're right that I I think all the time about how we're in the lion's den, As far as some of these most urgent questions. And much of the work, like the boats and seagulls in New England, which I also grew up with and know very well, the version of that here are the Western iconography. And just like I love a lot of the lighthouses, I I love a lot of the the Western imagery too. However, it's a mythology, right? Or or it's a form of landscape. And so I don't know. I I wonder just how you think about that and like how much of it you're willing to allow in. You know, because again, I do think that the political landscape is something that I often feel, largely feel, actually goes unaddressed by artists in this state. I'm hesitating to say that because I'm like, do I really believe that? I think there are a lot of good artists. working and making political work. However, it surprises me how few of them there are. Maybe that's a better way to put it. Well, I would say that I think a lot of artists discovered that there were artists at a young age. And the just like you are the person that you are when you're like a child, I think artists are similar in the work they make and the things that they're interested in. It's also, I feel that politically oriented work or protest work is is like really important and should be seen and the artists that are called to do that are incredibly important. Like I'm super proud to show Carlos's work right now, for instance. ⁓ and I think that he's touching on really important conversations that ⁓ in a gallery or a museum is a good place to have that conversation. Yet I also find it really unfair that artists are expected to filter the world through their work, whereas there is no other profession that that's expected. So like our expectations, this goes back to like, you know, what's valuable, you know, and who should be rewarded. And it's like our expectations on creativity and artists is like our own thing. So I think that artists should make the work that they feel called to make. ⁓ and some people are called to respond to a political climate and some artists are called to respond to like shape and color. Sure. ⁓ and they're both really important. And I'll also say that like, I mean, we all know it's hard to identify now, but we all know by looking back at history that the artists that are called to use shape and color as their main content are actually responding to the current day. And it's I'm sure that even back then it was difficult to recognize how ⁓ Jean or Kandinsky was like responding to the moment. And we'll look back at artists that are making work today and be like, ⁓ yeah. Yeah. I again I think it's a it's a tension that exists and we don't necessarily have to dig back into it, but I think it connects to this question around why people choose to make the work that they make, because I think we wanna believe that every artist is I I I really like your point about why we make when we're children, right? And you know, I was a child in the eighties and nineties and I wasn't making drawings about Ronald Reagan. So although one of a a big inspiration I think about a lot is ⁓ a Mad magazine cover that was George Bush Sr. threw up when he was in China and it was this kind of scandalous and kind of funny moment and Mad Magazine made this like really gnarly illustration with him with vomit all over him. And that was a big influ like I think all the time about how much my work is still connected to that. But my point is is I think that yes, we there there are other things in life other than politics that are less immediate in some respect. But I do wonder the way in which There's a cycle that exists where it's like challenging to show political work. And then I'm just saying that if the gallery is incentivizing folks to work with formal questions, right? Meaning shape and color primarily, or you know, I I think my real question maybe is where is that distance between seagulls, boats, and cowboy hats and ⁓ cones and spheres, right? Like w w where how when do we determine ⁓ that one has a superior sort of artistic value and does it all ultimately boil down to sales? Well yeah let's frame it in the commercial lens. You know, you used this word does it or you you said does a gallery incentivize artists that, you know, are interested in formal content. Is the gallery incentivized? by its audience to do that. Like who holds the power? Who makes the decisions? And, you know, this goes back to, you know, my comment earlier about like some artists make work that is commercial and some artists make work that isn't commercial. And I think that I'm interested in the conversations that I'm interested in. I am a painter too. I don't get to make as much work as I used to, but I make a specific type of work. When I try to force myself to do something else, I hate it. ⁓ I'm not proud of it. It wasn't fun. it didn't bring me joy. Like, I'm putting a mask on. And I think that it's so important that we all show up authentically as ourselves and to make the work that brings us joy. Like if you are battling your way through paintings, you're probably doing the wrong thing, in my opinion. For some artists, the battle itself is the fun. But you know, that's a different conversation. So yeah, this idea of incentive and conscious choices to be made, the reward is something that I think is detached from quality and and value. And I I guess I just think that it's like way more valuable for people to say what they need to say. The one I guess maybe last thing I'll say to that effect is I I think that saying what one needs to say, I've found it to be a lifelong endeavor, meaning that One can think they're being very open. ⁓ and then you realize, ⁓ actually, you know, you use this word mask. It's like, ⁓ actually, I was masking a little bit, I wasn't quite revealing, you know, the truth. And I think it's similar to the social things we were talking about. It it can be ⁓ you know, we all have walls built up. We want to be safe and protect ourselves from a certain level of, you know, criticism, et cetera. So it can take a long time to get to. exactly what it is that you want to put out into the world. And and so I do maybe this is working with students, but I I think that I'm often advising people to do exactly what you just said and to really, you know, make the thing you have to make. However, especially in the university setting, it's like, well, one of the things I want to make is a fucking living. And Yeah, to that to that point, I mean, as much as I'm a painter and I like making artwork and, you know I've discovered that the medium that I get to do the thing that I really want to do is this. Like the gallery is is a medium where I I get it fulfills all the things that I want to do. I love collaborating. I love learning about people. Like it's and you know, if I was in this mindset of like, no, no, no, I'm an artist and I really want to push that and and be that and do that and I I refuse to to pivot. 'Cause I think, you know, when I first took my first gallery job, I wasn't like, This is my calling at all. ⁓ but I discovered that through the process of doing it. And then I also think about like this belief that like passion isn't something that finds you, but you find it through working. Through doing, you become passionate. I think that's a good conversation to have with stu students and to even open it up beyond like the canvas or the a content that you could be depicting. It's like What are you supposed to be doing? You know? It's such a big question. And I don't think everybody finds it. And I feel super lucky that at least for this moment in my life, I feel like I am where I want to be. And I'm and I'm really it's super fulfilling. And again, I'm I'm also aware that like this might not be my forever to. Like I might fall out of love with it. I might be like disengaged with it, you know, and I'll have to move on with my life. And ⁓ but it's all about really trying to like be aware of where I am and what I'm interested in. And as like my galleries evolved and right now I'm showing what I'm showing and then like life will affect me and shifts will ha be made and artists will make their own pivots and it's such a fluid thing that we're dealing with. Yeah, I'm a little worried that mine and Sydney's calling might be podcasting. That's funny. Okay, I think we should go on to ghosts. So ⁓ this ⁓ is influences, histories, lingering presences that are shaping what you do. First thing that comes to mind is like family and support and just like weird things that happened to me when I was a kid about like trying to do things and pushing through obstacles and you know, philosophy. I don't know. There's there's a lot of different ghosts is influences that hit me. But you know, being in business or being an artist is like such a grind. And you gotta be like down ⁓ to take on that challenge every day because it you never hit easy street. And you see it obviously with artists who like they mount like an incredible show and then they have nothing in their studio. And it's like you gotta go recreate that magic again. Like that's super daunting. And, you know, in little ways I feel that too, because you know, I mount a different show every six weeks. ⁓ and I I want them to all be good. ⁓ and that's a I can put a lot of pressure on myself. Yeah. I just think about like ⁓ moments in my life in the past where I didn't get like the outcome that I wanted or things didn't go my way. And it's like, how did I find a way to continue on that path and to push through and to just sort of like battle adversity? I grew up as like a soccer player. ⁓ And that's really like what I went to college for actually. I was less interested in what I was studying and I was more interested in being able to like play. And as like an undersized athlete, I was always like just working really hard. I played outside midfield, which is like a running position. And that was that's like the only thing that I could control. Certainly I've carried that mentality into business and and also not just business, but it's like I really care about the future of Austin and what and like it's such an amazing opportunity that I've found myself here and that like I have any sort of hand in shaping what Austin can be in the future excites me a lot. And it's like you're constantly hitting walls. And it's not easy. And like the city doesn't feel like they're ready or something for looking at art and collecting art. And like, you know, it's just not part of the culture quite yet. Did you ever have a mentor that really like guided you? Maybe not even specifically towards art, but just like somebody that embedded a lot of like great values within you. Yeah, that's crazy. Like I I genuinely like felt myself like, ⁓ I could get emotional. Like well, I've never thought about this, actually. Really. But I had a soccer coach who's also a teacher named Bob Sereno, ninth grade physics teacher. And he was like the JV coach and he's just like an insanely positive guy. And he got 30 14 year old kids to work so hard. That's probably the closest that I've ever gotten to like somebody who's mentored me. But you know, I'm I'm grateful that he caught me at such a malleable time in my life. I'm just like grateful for the opportunity to like learn from him in being positive, in working really hard and showing myself that I can do things that I didn't think I could do. You know, as a like a new dad, I think about that for my daughter actually too, in doing difficult things. And when you do hard things or you extend yourself and get that thing or like accomplish that feat, you just value it way more than like if if if you buy something for like five bucks, it's going in your pocket. You know, if you buy something for fifty thousand dollars, like you are coveting that thing and protecting it and If running a marathon comes incredibly easy to you, it's like no big deal. And if you have to work for like two years to be able to accomplish that feat, you're super proud. ⁓ and that's a feeling that I think I'm always kind of chasing. And he certainly taught me that. You know, my my parents were business owners, my great grandfather was a business owner, my grandfather was a business owner, my other side on my dad's side. These are all people that I derive inspiration from and confidence from that business ownership is something that's even possible for people that like just have an idea and they want to go do the thing. That's something that I I probably take for granted too much that like I ever could make a decision to be like, I'm gonna go to my own gallery. I look at my parents are just normal people, you know, and they did it. So the next one is guts, which is about process, risk and what it actually takes to do the work. It sounds like part of what you think of as the work is changing the perception of the arts in Austin specifically. I guess it just makes me think about like feeling welcome or unwelcome in a space and then being authentic and just doing the thing that you're called to do. I think that has a lot to do with it somehow. You know, I guess I kinda always feel like I'm gambling a bit. Like here I am. I know what my schedule's gonna be for the next year and I think I'm gonna sell that work. And the artist hasn't even made the work yet. I'm like totally putting my trust in people and It's not like a blind trust. Like I really believe in them and the work that they make to the point where I'm literally gambling my livelihood on it. Through that, of course, I'm like really inspired to prove to the whole city that what I'm doing and what I believe in is worth believing in. You know, I think Austin's coming around to that. You know, the work of a gallery is this. It is raising the awareness of the work that we're showing. And Promoting the work and getting people excited about the work. You know, I guess I do that in many ways consciously or subconsciously. But I again, this like mentality of like build it and they will come kind of thing, and like this gamble and this like just blind trust in others and in myself. If I do really good work and present really good work, then people will believe it. And I think that my passion just kind of comes through in how I talk about it and I and I hope that that would be infectious in a certain degree. Again, like when I present speci certain works, like it's just undeniable in my opinion that like the work is really good and people want it. I want it. All the work that I show, I'm like, I want this. You're also looking outward though, right? Because I think part of the project of the podcast, part of why it was exciting to start with Emilio and and in California and with Christina as well, is that I think that there is provincialism that can harm the arts here in general, but also the perception of the arts here. And and I think that that affects those questions you were talking about earlier around, you know, why will someone buy something and is it just because the work is good? Usually there's more happening. You know, there is powerful enough work that people will just want it, but they want to feel like they're buying into something more than that. And so I think what I'm asking is like kind of how you think about shaping Because you do have that opportunity and and are very much a participant in it, you know, shaping ⁓ Austin as an art scene, your gallery as an institution, and you know, how you see that as being connected also to places like New York, LA, Miami, and maybe even beyond this country. Yeah, I think that like when I first opened the gallery, I just showed Texas artists and I was really proud of that. I would love to continue to do that. And yet, you know, one thing that I saw is that the perception of the work that I was showing is this is a local art gallery and this gallery doesn't have the option or ability to show artists from New York or LA or Chicago or Miami. I could be like, No, no, no, no, it's a choice. And they're like, Okay, yeah, sure. Like you you know, this gallery's like, you know, other artists you still want to show here. So it sort of communicates ability and the fact that the artists from Austin that I show For instance, they can also show alongside artists from anywhere else. And they could go show in those cities too. Like the work that happens to be being made in our backyard here in Austin is world class. Like I a hundred percent believe that. There's a lot of world class artists that live right here. I mean, and there's some artists that have already like kind of been recognized on that level. It's Deborahs and Tyler Hobbes and Nadia Wahid and you know, ⁓ among others. that are making work that is being shown all over the world. And yet if I was a young, you know, if I if my gallery was a year old and I and those artists hadn't been seen in New York and LA and, you know, sort of crowned yet, if I made a gallery of just Deborah's Tyler Hobbes and Adi Rahid and hung them side by side and they're all Austin based artists, like that communicates something to my audience. It's sort of a strategic choice to show artists from other places. But also as much as it is slightly a strategic choice, I am obsessed with the work that I get to show from the artists from other places. So it's just sort of widened my lens a little bit. But I think that ultimately it's a really good thing. And this sort of national collaboration and inspiration and just sort of like this this like mixing. I think is good for everybody's work too. I agree too. And also just being somebody that tries to go to many of your openings, seeing work from artists all over the country is also such a reward being a viewer because there's So many people that don't actually have the luxury to travel to California or New York and see these artists in person. And also just speaking from a teacher's perspective, sending my students there too, and then them being able to see the work is just really great. So the last G is growth. So where do you see Ivestor going in the future? And if you had like a dream artist that you could show their work if you wanted to put that out into the universe. Yeah. The gallery's six years old and I believe in steady, slow growth. I'm just sort of marching towards that. And I'm I'm learning a lot about business and I'm learning a lot about what the gallery's doing. And I'm trying to take like measured progress because I want to do this for a long time and I don't want to overcommit myself, especially financially. I want to be able to do the Dallas Art Fair, Continue Friends Fair, and like a fair in Miami. I mean, we're just living in this time where like some galleries are like I'm doing 10 fairs this year or like 20 fairs and and that's their whole model essentially. And I don't want to live my life like that. And we live in this world in which like grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, keep producing, like to what end and why? And the why is too important to me. And ⁓ my family and my routines and my life is important to me. I mean, y we all could have made the decision to go into a different industry and like really think about like I am making money and that is what my job is and then I go home and I live my life and what I see with a lot of people like that is like there's actually no time left over for their life sometimes. And it's like okay you're hoarding wealth or compiling money and you're like you're doing great financially and your life is completely out of balance. So you know as I grow I just want to try to keep balance though I totally overcommit myself. I'm doing a lot of things right now. I have these goals in, you know, through A three and I have these goals through Friends Fair and I have these goals through the gallery and the frame shop. ⁓ you know, I'm a I'm a I have a n a baby at home. Like I feel super stretched thin recently. That's a part of who I am. Like I actually love to be busy and to do a lot and I wanna be able to present the gallery as a gallery that can hang with any gallery in the country. I really feel like I can grow Iverster Contemporary into something that can be taken seriously on like a national. level and to be in conversation with some of the bigger galleries. I don't have the ambition to be a gallery that is globally recognized like a Gojan or something. Not that that would even be available to me, probably. I'm not, you know, but I'm not trying to run a corporation, but I I'm trying to run something that is taken seriously and curators that I really respect are looking at seriously. And I want to grow alongside the artists that I work with to get there. A lot of the artists that I work with are just sort of starting their own missions and There are people who are super ambitious in their own way. And, you know, some of the first questions that I ask artists that I'm starting work work with working with is like, what are your goals? Do they match up with my goals? You know, if if an artist tells me, I just want to make sales, I'm like, okay, like I want to make sales, but I'm not just making sales. I just don't want to sacrifice the why. And artists that I will just shamelessly say, like, I want to work with someday in Austin, I love Nadia Wahid's work. I don't think that she's aware of the gallery, but I would love for her to become aware of the gallery. I love Claire Oswald's work so much. Tyler Hobbes is a really good friend of mine who I could imagine collaborating with and showing eventually. But you know, the gallery has to grow in ways to be able to serve their careers and to be able to reach a wider audience ⁓ and sell work on that level. So like I have so much work to do. I have there's so much growth that I need to to still do. To to be able to get there. But I'm just like slowly putting one foot in front of the other. And summer is such a great time for me to take a step back and reflect on what the last year has been and how I want to grow next year. And like I am proud to say that I feel like each year I've been able to take a positive step. I did want to ask one last question, because I really do believe that you will get to that point. But When you are there, will you not leave the emerging artists behind? Cause I feel like that would be really important that the more established artists that you bring to not forget about the emerging upcoming underdogs. I mean, there's a part of me that's just like, let's say I get to this place that I want to get to in ten years. Well, I'm gonna be forty five and I'm gonna be less in touch with the emerging scene. Like I'm not gonna be keyed into that space as much and I'm probably not going to be the right person to show that work. And I would actually hope that somebody backfills in and starts their own project and that this is a cycle. And I actually think that that cycle's quite healthy. Like I don't think it would be appropriate for for Gagoshan, you know, just like or, you know, to to take on an artist who's just coming out of an undergrad degree. It's like giving somebody fire that like doesn't know how to use it yet. And I think that We actually saw in like twenty twenty-one, twenty twenty two, a lot of galleries hugely artificially inflate artists' prices and they've completely ruined their trajectories and their careers by inflating their prices and now leaving them out to dry at these astronomical prices when their work isn't really worth that and they don't have the career to back that. Like that's not a healthy place for anybody to be in. So I will leave. emerging artists behind, but not because I don't care about it, but because I'm not gonna be the right person to serve those people forever. Right. I feel like the very last thing is that we should give you a chance to plug anything you want. The summer is a slower time for the gallery. I mean this sort of like reflection period and planning for the year ahead. ⁓ but A three, we have thirty thousand dollars worth of microgrants that we're giving away. And this is an organization that I chair And I'm really proud to work with Laura Sparza, the executive director and the other board members that we work with. This is a nonprofit that's been around in different iterations for 125 years. And this is a new iteration we're working to become Austin's local arts agency. And one of the main goals is to re-grant money and to fund individual artists, artists who are educators and smaller arts nonprofits. So like keep an eye out for A3 to make. those announcements for the artists that that won these awards that were selected by six panelists. And I think that the artists who have been awarded the the money are artists that I was unfamiliar with and ⁓ super talented. So I'm excited about that. The summer I'll be having a group show where I'm pulling from my racks honestly ⁓ to sort of recontextualize some work that I've shown in the past and and to mix artists together so that people can see like a wider lens of what the gallery's doing. And then in the fall, I just have like a bunch of badass shows lined up. I've got Christine Garvey in the project space, an artist out of Miami named Regina Gestro in the main exhibition space. I have Jen Hassan after that in the main exhibition space, and an artist out of DC named Michael Booker in the project space. and then I have Alicia Eggert in the main exhibition space, who's from North Texas, and she is showing with Antonio Lechuga, who's also from like the Dallas area. Who's I mean, these are all artists that I'm like super excited to present. And Jen is the only artist that I'm presenting again. Everybody else is kind of new to Austin. and it's gonna be awesome. All right, man. Well, we should let you go, but I just wanted to say thank you again for doing this and also just for encouraging us to do it. And yes. Yeah. Well, have a great rest of your day. Thank you again. Have a good Yeah, thank you guys. Talk to you later.