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Legally Brunette Presents: ‘Til Death Do Us Part - The Milkshake Murder · Legally Brunette

0:01
Speaker 1: Hi, guys, welcome to Till Death Do Us Part, where
0:06
Speaker 1: we talk about cases where husbands take out wives and
0:10
Speaker 1: wives take out husbands.
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Speaker 2: You know what they're seeing to take out murder, Yes, murder,
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Speaker 2: not romantic, I mean like take out like murder.
0:21
Speaker 1: And there never seems to be a lack of cases
0:25
Speaker 1: to talk about. So first of all, let's just do
0:28
Speaker 1: a little update, because if you've listened to our last
0:30
Speaker 1: couple episodes for Till Death Do Us Part, we had
0:33
Speaker 1: been covering the Gerhard Koenig trial, which is the antesesiologist
0:39
Speaker 1: who tried to attempted to kill his wife pushing her,
0:45
Speaker 1: pushing her off of a cliff and.
0:47
Speaker 2: Alternatively he was defending himself because she was trying to
0:50
Speaker 2: kill him.
0:51
Speaker 1: Right. However, we'd been following the trial and Gerhard was
0:56
Speaker 1: convicted on April eighth, twenty twenty six, So just recently,
1:00
Speaker 1: he was convicted of attempted manslaughter based upon extreme mental
1:03
Speaker 1: or emotional disturbance. The unanimous verdict came after the Honolulu
1:08
Speaker 1: County jury deliberated for more than eight hours. It did
1:12
Speaker 1: not convict Gerhardcona of the higher charge of second degree
1:16
Speaker 1: attempted murder. He faces up to twenty years in prison
1:19
Speaker 1: when he is sentenced on August thirteenth, so we will
1:22
Speaker 1: follow the sentencing and jolo shop days sentencing, he faces
1:27
Speaker 1: up to twenty years.
1:29
Speaker 2: That's it. Huh, yeah, that's it. Attempted murder. Actually he
1:32
Speaker 2: didn't succeed.
1:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they didn't. They didn't convict him of the
1:35
Speaker 1: higher charge of second degree. They convicted him of manslaughter,
1:40
Speaker 1: attempted manslaughter because they, I guess they believe that he
1:44
Speaker 1: was under extreme mental or emotional disturbance.
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Speaker 2: You know, I just don't so what you don't You
1:51
Speaker 2: don't get to kill or you get a little break
1:54
Speaker 2: because you know if your if your endgame is you
1:58
Speaker 2: choose to kill. Yeah, that's I don't get it.
2:01
Speaker 1: I know.
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Speaker 2: I mean if I if I falsify my I R
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Speaker 2: S forms right and cheat my taxes, I'll be like wow,
2:11
Speaker 2: emotional stress. Right, So it should be a lesser crime,
2:15
Speaker 2: A lesser punishment doesn't work, Like.
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Speaker 1: No, it doesn't. All right, let's move on to the
2:21
Speaker 1: case we're going to talk about today until death do
2:23
Speaker 1: us part. It is the case of Robert Kissel. And
2:27
Speaker 1: this is also called the Milkshake murder. And this was
2:30
Speaker 1: actually a recommended from some to me from some of
2:33
Speaker 1: our listeners. So thank you guys for the recommendation. I
2:36
Speaker 1: had not heard of it until you told me. And
2:38
Speaker 1: then once I started researching it and getting into it,
2:40
Speaker 1: I was like, this is a.
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Speaker 2: Crazy randomly google like something like the Blue Chair murderer.
2:48
Speaker 1: Yes, this is the the milkshake shake murder. To be
2:53
Speaker 1: more specific, it's actually a strawberry milkshake, which we will
2:56
Speaker 1: get into.
2:57
Speaker 2: So I'd be confused with the vanilla or chocolate shake murder.
3:00
Speaker 1: There probably are those as well.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, all right.
3:03
Speaker 1: So Robert Kissel was murdered on November two of two
3:05
Speaker 1: thousand and three. This is in Hong Kong. Kissel was
3:09
Speaker 1: a forty year old investment banker with Merrill International. Yes,
3:13
Speaker 1: we're going to We're in Hong Kong. Okay, everyone get
3:16
Speaker 1: your passports, hop on board. We are heading to Hong Kong.
3:21
Speaker 1: He was an investment banker with Meryl Lynch. So he
3:26
Speaker 1: was killed by his wife, Nancy and their luxury apartment,
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Speaker 1: and prosecutors said Nancy drugged her husband with a strawberry milkshake,
3:34
Speaker 1: hence the name the milkshake murder. The drink was laced
3:37
Speaker 1: with sedatives including rufin alfy, yeah, and sleeping pills.
3:42
Speaker 2: Right, why they call it roofy? You always ed up
3:44
Speaker 2: on the floor.
3:46
Speaker 1: Is that from the hangover?
3:48
Speaker 2: Yeah? That was doug. Oh that's what triggered it. Yes,
3:52
Speaker 2: Then he was like, wait, what do you say again?
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Speaker 1: Let me go back. The drink was laced with sedatives
3:58
Speaker 1: including rufin al and sleeping pills, rendering him unconscious. She
4:03
Speaker 1: then bludgeoned him to death. So let's get into this.
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Speaker 2: That is some planning right there.
4:08
Speaker 1: Well there's yeah, there's some planning here.
4:10
Speaker 2: And it was in a strawberry milkshake.
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Speaker 1: It was a strawberry milkshake.
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Speaker 2: Yeap, like like a homemade milkshake.
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Speaker 1: Yes, like she made it with the kids.
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Speaker 2: You serious?
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Speaker 1: Yes?
4:22
Speaker 2: No kidding?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we had three kids, all right? Who is
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Speaker 1: Rob kissel So? Rob was born in sixty three in
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Speaker 1: Connecticut to an extremely wealthy family. He and his siblings
4:32
Speaker 1: attended elite schools, and his dad even gave him a
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Speaker 1: credit card as a teenager that had no limit and
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Speaker 1: no rules. Rob graduated from Duke University with his bachelor's
4:40
Speaker 1: and then went on to earn his NBA at NYU
4:43
Speaker 1: by the late nineties and early two thousands, Rob was
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Speaker 1: a high level investment banker working for Merrill Lynch in
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Speaker 1: Hong Kong, and he specialized in high yield debt and
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Speaker 1: distress investments and reportedly earned three million per year in
4:57
Speaker 1: salary and bonuses. Merrill Lynch even and paid twenty thousand
5:01
Speaker 1: dollars a month to house him and his family in
5:04
Speaker 1: an exclusive apartment development. It was called Park Something. I
5:08
Speaker 1: forget now what it was called, but they showed I've
5:12
Speaker 1: seen videos because I tried to watch as much as
5:15
Speaker 1: I could, and it showed this resort like area that
5:18
Speaker 1: they lived, and it has three swimming pools and tennis
5:23
Speaker 1: courts and all the things. Nancy, his wife, was born
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Speaker 1: in sixty four in Minnesota to a middle class Midwestern family.
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Speaker 1: She had met Rob in the early nineties while they
5:33
Speaker 1: were both working in New York. In fact, when Rob
5:35
Speaker 1: was earning his master's at NYU, she was working three
5:38
Speaker 1: different jobs to support them. After marriage, she was primarily
5:42
Speaker 1: a stay at home mom and a socialite amongst the
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Speaker 1: other finance wives in the area. Apparently she got five
5:48
Speaker 1: thousand dollars haircuts. That's the level of wealth that we're talking.
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Speaker 2: About five thousand dollars haircut.
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Speaker 1: You know, there were lots of pictures of her, and
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Speaker 1: I would not say that. I feel as if that
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Speaker 1: was worth it.
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Speaker 2: She got duped for five thousands.
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Speaker 1: Who pays five thousand dollars for a haircut?
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Speaker 2: Apparently murderers do.
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Speaker 1: I guess so. But they had a lot of money.
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Speaker 1: They lived very wealthy. She was part of the elites
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Speaker 1: in this very you know, affluent area of Hong Kong.
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Speaker 2: You know what's interesting is you said he grew up
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Speaker 2: where he pretty much had money without limits, yet he
6:26
Speaker 2: found his way to be successful, you know, academically and
6:30
Speaker 2: then professionally. So he's kind of an exception to the
6:34
Speaker 2: general rule of like not spoiling your kids and entitlement
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Speaker 2: and stuff. And then here she is having five thousand
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Speaker 2: dollars haircuts and you know, wanting nothing right because she can.
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Speaker 2: She has lots of money, right, And apparently he allows
6:49
Speaker 2: her to have the five thousand dollars cuts.
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Speaker 1: I guess he doesn't care.
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Speaker 2: And then she kills them. Yes a spoiler alert, Well
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Speaker 2: she kills them, she.
6:57
Speaker 1: Does, But there's more that happens.
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Speaker 2: So what I'm saying is they both like use their
7:02
Speaker 2: money for different reasons, like money didn't make her happy
7:06
Speaker 2: and she ends up killing him. And then he has
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Speaker 2: all kinds of money yet doesn't it doesn't affect him
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Speaker 2: in the negative way, and he becomes successful, yes, and
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Speaker 2: kind of straight and narrow.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I see what you're saying.
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Speaker 2: That's what I got from this so far.
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Speaker 1: All right. So in mid two thousand and three, Rob
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Speaker 1: began to suspect Nancy of infidelity with another man while
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Speaker 1: she and the children were living in Vermont during the
7:28
Speaker 1: SARS outbreak in Hong Kong. So she returns to Vermont
7:32
Speaker 1: with the kids, and she's living in Vermont and he
7:34
Speaker 1: stays in Hong Kong. He also travels a lot for work,
7:37
Speaker 1: so he's not home a lot. I think she's alone
7:39
Speaker 1: a lot. So when she returns to Vermont, she starts
7:44
Speaker 1: doing repair, not just repairs. I think she starts remodeling
7:48
Speaker 1: their house in Vermont.
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Speaker 2: Oh, they had a house in Vermont this whole time.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, because they were living in Vermont.
7:53
Speaker 2: Then he large.
7:54
Speaker 1: Then he got this opportunity to go work in Hong Kong.
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Speaker 1: So then that he moves the family to Hong Kong.
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Speaker 1: I don't think she is happy about moving to Hong Kong.
8:01
Speaker 1: I don't think she really wanted to live there, but
8:03
Speaker 1: they end up living in this beautiful high rise, affluent,
8:06
Speaker 1: you know, apartment. He's making three million dollars a year.
8:10
Speaker 1: That's a lot of money. And this is in the
8:12
Speaker 1: this is like early two thousands, so this ISDA that's
8:16
Speaker 1: a lot of money. So then during the Stars outbreak,
8:19
Speaker 1: she ends up taking the kids and going back to Vermont,
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Speaker 1: and I think she has so much money that she's like,
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Speaker 1: I'm just going to remodel this whole house. So she
8:26
Speaker 1: starts remodeling the house and I guess doing repairs on
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Speaker 1: the house, and she ends up meeting a TV repairman
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Speaker 1: who she starts having an affair with. So Rob the husband.
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Speaker 2: Does the TV repairman make more money than her husband?
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Speaker 1: No, he does not, and he lives in a trailer park.
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Speaker 1: So she starts having an affair with a very simple
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Speaker 1: man who's a TV repairman and he lives in a
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Speaker 1: trailer park. Rob suspects her of having an affair, so
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Speaker 1: he hires a private investigator to confirm his suspicions, and
9:00
Speaker 1: he also secretly installed spyware on her computer so that
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Speaker 1: he gets You understand this you know what this is,
9:07
Speaker 1: so he can yeah, you know what this is, so
9:10
Speaker 1: he can get well you understand all that stuff, we'll say.
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Speaker 2: What it is.
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Speaker 1: No, so he gets like he can see all her
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Speaker 1: emails and every.
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Speaker 2: Okay, so he can just access everything.
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Speaker 1: He accesses everything. Yeah, so he can see I guess
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Speaker 1: she's conversing with this the TV repair man that she's
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Speaker 1: having an affair with. And I think they're emailing each other.
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Speaker 1: This is two thousand and three texting.
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Speaker 2: It's emails, the communication.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's not texting right.
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Speaker 2: Well, so however he does it. He has access to
9:40
Speaker 2: her computer.
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Speaker 1: Right, so he now knows that she's having an affair. Yeah,
9:47
Speaker 1: so she ends up going back to Hong Kong. I
9:50
Speaker 1: think initially he wanted to repair the marriage.
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Speaker 2: What would she have to offer that he thinks, No,
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Speaker 2: let's make this work.
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Speaker 1: I don't know you've been saying that. You know, even
9:59
Speaker 1: though he grew up wealth, he's still committed to going
10:01
Speaker 1: to school and becoming something of himself, and.
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Speaker 2: He worked for giving her and trying to I think
10:09
Speaker 2: initially his.
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Speaker 1: First reaction was to try to make things work with
10:13
Speaker 1: her and to not get divorce. But then I think
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Speaker 1: this affair keeps going on. I think she's truly in
10:18
Speaker 1: love with this guy, this other guy, and he knows
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Speaker 1: that on November two of two thousand and three, this
10:30
Speaker 1: is the actual day of the murder. So here we
10:33
Speaker 1: are back in Hong Kong. Nancy and the kids end
10:35
Speaker 1: up going back to Hong Kong. Rob told Nancy that
10:38
Speaker 1: he was filing for divorce and intended to secure custody
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Speaker 1: of their children. So then Nancy prepares a strawberry milkshake
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Speaker 1: laced with multiple sedatives, and she had their six year
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Speaker 1: old daughter servant to Rob. There was also a neighbor
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Speaker 1: at the house because they were having a playdate, and
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Speaker 1: the dad was there and he brought his child over,
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Speaker 1: and she ends up serving a milkshake to both of them,
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Speaker 1: to the neighbor and to her.
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Speaker 2: Husband, both laced with the yes Yes.
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Speaker 1: So a neighbor who was at the Kissel's house that
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Speaker 1: same day because his daughter was there for a play date,
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Speaker 1: was also served the same milkshake. He testified that after
11:19
Speaker 1: drinking the milkshake, he went home and became drowsy and
11:23
Speaker 1: unconscious after drinking it, causing him to fall asleep in
11:26
Speaker 1: his home for eighteen hours, So I don't know why
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Speaker 1: what her intent was was serving two milkshakes laced with sedatives.
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Speaker 1: I mean, she could have killed the other guy.
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Speaker 2: Well, I know, rufe isn't isn't really fatal? Is it?
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Speaker 1: Well? It had other things besides just that it had
11:44
Speaker 1: five different sedatives in it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I'm gonna guess. And she didn't anticipate the
11:51
Speaker 2: sedatives to be fatal.
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Speaker 1: But why give them to the neighbor other than she
11:56
Speaker 1: didn't want them to mix up the milkshakes.
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Speaker 2: So she just put it in both probably or.
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Speaker 1: Why serve the neighbor neighbor of milkshake?
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Speaker 2: Why don't you kill She obviously didn't care. I mean,
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Speaker 2: what she worried about. She's gonna kill this husband, She's
12:09
Speaker 2: worried about this guy taking a long nap.
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Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess I just don't. I just
12:13
Speaker 1: didn't understand why she brought out she had And then.
12:16
Speaker 2: She says the kids serving it. I mean the kids
12:18
Speaker 2: could take a sip. Yeah that is feel like I
12:20
Speaker 2: don't want it, you can have it. I mean, I
12:22
Speaker 2: know she had no regard for her human life.
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Speaker 1: Right point once Rob was unconscious. So Rob's unconscious now, right,
12:28
Speaker 1: because he drinks the strawberry milkshake and it has roofi
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Speaker 1: and also like five different sedatives in it. So then
12:34
Speaker 1: he goes into the bedroom because he feels drowsy, right,
12:38
Speaker 1: because he has to take a nap now. And then
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Speaker 1: Nancy repeatedly bludgeoned him to death with an eight pound
12:45
Speaker 1: lead statue that had belonged to her grandmother. It was sentimental, Yes,
12:52
Speaker 1: it's very sentimental. So he takes the milkshake. He has
12:56
Speaker 1: sedatives in his system, he needs to go lay down.
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Speaker 2: He was just how is she expecting to get away
13:01
Speaker 2: with this crime?
13:02
Speaker 1: I don't know, because what she does after this, this
13:03
Speaker 1: is all very bizarre. Yes, So then he's dead in
13:08
Speaker 1: the bed. She leaves him in the bed for two days.
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Speaker 1: He's just in the bed. I think she even sleeps
13:15
Speaker 1: in the same bad are the kids. The kids are
13:17
Speaker 1: in the apartment. I don't know what she tells them.
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Speaker 1: Maybe they they're young, so I don't know. Maybe she
13:22
Speaker 1: could just say dad's working or something.
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Speaker 2: I don't know.
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Speaker 1: And she keeps the bedroom door shut. But the dead
13:27
Speaker 1: body is in the bed for two days because I
13:30
Speaker 1: think she killed him and then didn't really know what
13:34
Speaker 1: to do. With the body, and then she's trying to
13:36
Speaker 1: figure out what to do with the bottle. So then
13:39
Speaker 1: what she does she goes shopping. Well, first of all,
13:42
Speaker 1: she goes on a big shopping spree after she kills him,
13:45
Speaker 1: and she spends a ton of money on new furniture
13:48
Speaker 1: for this apartment in Hong Kong.
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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, well the renovations don't stop just because she murdered.
13:53
Speaker 1: Right, Well, she was renovating the house in Vermont and
13:55
Speaker 1: spent money on that. Then she comes back to Hong Kong,
13:58
Speaker 1: murders her husband and then goes him in the bed,
14:01
Speaker 1: sleeps in the same bed with him for two nights.
14:03
Speaker 2: Buzz dead on the bed. Yeah, you would immediately have
14:06
Speaker 2: me removed.
14:07
Speaker 1: Well, there's no room for the dogs if you're dead
14:09
Speaker 1: in the bed, So yes, you must be removed immediately.
14:12
Speaker 2: And then the the body removal people would come over.
14:15
Speaker 2: Yes I was, and they to be like I thought
14:17
Speaker 2: he was in the bed, he's on the floor, Like, yeah,
14:18
Speaker 2: well I need my dogs need to be on the bed.
14:20
Speaker 2: So I rolled them off. I pushed him off, the
14:22
Speaker 2: ed take them away.
14:23
Speaker 1: I like, how you reference that I would call a
14:25
Speaker 1: body removal like they're just such a thing.
14:28
Speaker 2: Well, well, who would you call I don't know. Well,
14:32
Speaker 2: I don't know see exactly, I would google the people,
14:36
Speaker 2: the people corner, the medical examiner.
14:38
Speaker 1: All right, So she goes on a shopping spree, spends
14:41
Speaker 1: a bunch of money. Then she goes and she buys
14:42
Speaker 1: an oriental rug. She brings the rug home. Then this
14:46
Speaker 1: is what I don't understand. She's not a large woman,
14:49
Speaker 1: she's petite. Yeah, she manages to wrap up her husband
14:55
Speaker 1: in an oriental rug inside of it. Then she gets
14:59
Speaker 1: work to carry the oriental rug into like a storage
15:03
Speaker 1: space in her apartment. First of all, my question is
15:08
Speaker 1: do these workers not think this oriental rug is extremely
15:11
Speaker 1: heavy and it has a full grown man in the
15:16
Speaker 1: middle of it.
15:17
Speaker 2: Several days old?
15:19
Speaker 1: Yes, a two day old, bloated dead man in the
15:22
Speaker 1: middle of this rug, right that they that she wrapped
15:26
Speaker 1: him in. First of all, I can't figure out how
15:28
Speaker 1: she She must have laid the carpet next to the
15:29
Speaker 1: bed and then pushed him off the bed and then
15:31
Speaker 1: somehow rolled his body up in it. I mean, that's
15:34
Speaker 1: a lot of strength. First of all, those oriental rugs
15:36
Speaker 1: are heavy.
15:38
Speaker 2: Wait wait a minute, so they so, then she has
15:41
Speaker 2: these movers or workers. Okay, I don't know, come to
15:46
Speaker 2: her house, yes.
15:47
Speaker 1: And move the rug into like a storage.
15:49
Speaker 2: And I assume there's blood.
15:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, because she blooded him to death.
15:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean maybe she cleared up. But that's the
15:55
Speaker 2: point is she there was there was blood, and then
15:59
Speaker 2: she she had to have wrapped up the carpet to
16:01
Speaker 2: the rug.
16:02
Speaker 1: She wrapped him in the run.
16:04
Speaker 2: But then but but you have to wrap then the
16:07
Speaker 2: rug so he doesn't.
16:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she tied it up.
16:11
Speaker 2: I mean, that's like a big old lump in this carpet.
16:14
Speaker 2: That's fascinating, right, So then she does not, mam, your
16:19
Speaker 2: carpet's uh dripping red paint.
16:22
Speaker 1: Yes, and it seems to have a large lump in
16:24
Speaker 1: the middle and it washs three hundred pounds. Nancy does
16:30
Speaker 1: not report her husband missing. She just kind of goes
16:32
Speaker 1: on with life, like like he just you know, went
16:36
Speaker 1: on a work trip or something. He police are looking
16:41
Speaker 1: for him because it ends up being that a colleague
16:43
Speaker 1: of his reports him missing because he doesn't show up
16:48
Speaker 1: for meetings at work and this guy is like a
16:51
Speaker 1: high he's a high executive. The colleague ends up reporting
16:54
Speaker 1: him missing. The police go to look for him. They
16:58
Speaker 1: end I don't know if they have a search warn
16:59
Speaker 1: or what wud They end up finding the rolled up
17:03
Speaker 1: rug with Rob in the storage place, bludgeoned to death.
17:08
Speaker 1: So and then police say that Nancy had actually slept
17:12
Speaker 1: in the room with Rob's body for two days before
17:14
Speaker 1: buying a new carpet, rolling his body inside the old one,
17:17
Speaker 1: and then directing workmen to put it in the storage.
17:19
Speaker 2: Now far it was the storage like on their property.
17:21
Speaker 1: I think it was on their property somewhere. I'm not
17:24
Speaker 1: exactly sure where their storage unit was. I don't know
17:26
Speaker 1: if it was in the apartment or if it was
17:28
Speaker 1: you know, just every apartment has like a storage unit. Well,
17:33
Speaker 1: then she pleads not guilty.
17:34
Speaker 2: No, what was she going to do with the body?
17:36
Speaker 2: I don't know.
17:37
Speaker 1: I don't know what Nancy's plan was. I really don't.
17:39
Speaker 1: I think she thought she was just going to go
17:41
Speaker 1: on with life with him just in the storage unit.
17:43
Speaker 1: She was just going to say he went on a
17:44
Speaker 1: work trip and never came home. I don't, I have
17:46
Speaker 1: no idea. I don't know.
17:48
Speaker 2: Oh, that's just an old carpet in the corner. Don't
17:49
Speaker 2: mind that, Yeah, I guess, I really.
17:52
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows what's going on inside Nancy's head.
17:55
Speaker 1: I mean, we already established that she put sedatives and
17:58
Speaker 1: both the milkshakes the kids could drank out of it.
18:01
Speaker 1: The neighbor drank out of it and slept for twenty
18:03
Speaker 1: hours or something like. She's all over the place. Initially,
18:08
Speaker 1: Nancy maintained her innocence, but halfway through her testimony she
18:12
Speaker 1: changed her story.
18:14
Speaker 2: I don't know how in the world could she even
18:19
Speaker 2: pretend that she had nothing to do with the murder
18:22
Speaker 2: or the man was murdered in her bedroom and pointing
18:26
Speaker 2: a carpet that she purchased. I'm sure there's a record
18:29
Speaker 2: of her purchasing this rug and then there's movers or
18:32
Speaker 2: workers that moved it and it's in the storage area
18:36
Speaker 2: in their house. What story is she going to come
18:39
Speaker 2: up with? Well?
18:40
Speaker 1: She so the story she comes up with is she
18:42
Speaker 1: she actually had a story?
18:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, she So.
18:45
Speaker 1: She then says that she starts to claim self defense,
18:49
Speaker 1: and she claims that that she was defending herself against
18:55
Speaker 1: Rob who was an abusive drug user. But we're gonna
18:59
Speaker 1: go more into that later. So just hold on. Hong Kong.
19:04
Speaker 1: So let's talk about trials in Hong Kong because we
19:06
Speaker 1: are located in Hong Kong. So she's going to go
19:09
Speaker 1: on trial in Hong Kong. And this was this was
19:13
Speaker 1: a very sensationalized case, like it was everybody was talking about.
19:16
Speaker 2: It was all over the news. It's pretty unique, you know,
19:20
Speaker 2: kind of standing right, and you.
19:21
Speaker 1: Have Americans in Hong Kong. He's a high level executive
19:27
Speaker 1: that's making all this money. That's this whole story of
19:30
Speaker 1: how she killed him with the milkshake and then like
19:33
Speaker 1: the and she bludgeoned him to death. You know, to
19:37
Speaker 1: be able to look at your husband laying in bed asleep,
19:45
Speaker 1: this is after she gave him the sedatives. So he
19:47
Speaker 1: goes into the Betty lays down right, He's like, he's
19:49
Speaker 1: not dead, he's just perfect. He's asleep in the bed.
19:54
Speaker 1: And this is the father of your three children. And
19:59
Speaker 1: to be able to pick up like a eight pound
20:03
Speaker 1: bronze statue and bludgeon the man to death until he's dead,
20:09
Speaker 1: that takes I mean, that is a crazy I can't
20:16
Speaker 1: even like, I hit a squirrel one time when I
20:20
Speaker 1: was in high school, and I'm still deeply affected by
20:23
Speaker 1: the fact that I ran over a squirrel in like
20:25
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four and I can still see it, and
20:27
Speaker 1: I'm deeply affected by that. I cannot imagine how much
20:34
Speaker 1: hatred you have to have for someone to be able
20:37
Speaker 1: to just bludgeon them to.
20:39
Speaker 2: Death on their heart, how much hatred. It's not like
20:42
Speaker 2: she has more hatred than you would for you. Yeah,
20:45
Speaker 2: you still have the same amount of hatred. You just
20:47
Speaker 2: don't choose to murder, right. Yeah.
20:51
Speaker 1: But I guess for someone to be able to physically, psychologically,
20:56
Speaker 1: emotionally be.
20:57
Speaker 2: Able, I think that they could live with that that
21:00
Speaker 2: that's okay.
21:01
Speaker 1: Well, just the act of physically doing it, yeah, I
21:05
Speaker 1: mean that's.
21:05
Speaker 2: Crazy pulling a body up off the bed onto a carpet,
21:09
Speaker 2: onto a rug and then rolling the rug up and
21:12
Speaker 2: then calling them mover sick? Can you move this downstairs?
21:16
Speaker 2: And the storage?
21:16
Speaker 1: You and sleeping in the same bed with the man?
21:18
Speaker 2: For very happy though that you feel that way about murdering?
21:23
Speaker 1: Do you feel Do you feel safeer? Now?
21:26
Speaker 2: Okay?
21:27
Speaker 1: I can? You are looking at me strange? Are you
21:30
Speaker 1: worried about?
21:30
Speaker 2: What I was going to say is shake? Now? I
21:32
Speaker 2: won't be suspicious?
21:33
Speaker 1: Would you like a strawberry shake? Later? Hong Kong follows
21:37
Speaker 1: a common law system derived from the United Kingdom. Murder
21:40
Speaker 1: carries a mandatory life sentence, and judges have no discretion
21:44
Speaker 1: to impose a lesser sentence if the jury convix.
21:47
Speaker 2: On there you go. That's it. You murder, you do life.
21:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, you like that better, don't you. It's very cut
21:53
Speaker 1: and dry. Hong Kong does recognize a diminished responsibility under
21:58
Speaker 1: a British derived law, So if the defendant was suffering
22:01
Speaker 1: from an abnormality of mind that impaired mental responsibility, that
22:07
Speaker 1: would be considered diminished responsibility.
22:10
Speaker 2: What I never ever understand. To kill someone, you have
22:15
Speaker 2: to be out of your mind. You can't be like,
22:17
Speaker 2: he killed her, but you know, he's kind of normal,
22:20
Speaker 2: He kind of you know, he's okay, so we can
22:23
Speaker 2: throw him in jail. I know you, I know, I
22:25
Speaker 2: know some to some degree, some are more you know,
22:29
Speaker 2: insane than others, more out of touch with reality than others.
22:33
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, you're willing to kill. Well.
22:36
Speaker 1: I always thought when you talk about an insanity defense,
22:40
Speaker 1: it's like, well, aren't you just insane because you committed
22:44
Speaker 1: the act of murder? I don't know. The only one
22:46
Speaker 1: where I felt like it kind of made sense is
22:48
Speaker 1: when we talked about Andrea Yates, and remember when she
22:51
Speaker 1: drowned her children and she was very just yeah, but
22:55
Speaker 1: she murdered I know, and she spent the rest of
22:58
Speaker 1: her life in a mental facilit But I'm just saying
23:01
Speaker 1: that's the only time where I actually truly felt like
23:05
Speaker 1: she was absolutely mentally insane.
23:08
Speaker 2: But it doesn't change the fact that it should be
23:11
Speaker 2: a life sentence of some sort. Well, you're right, I
23:13
Speaker 2: understand if they put it sounds like if they put
23:15
Speaker 2: her in a cell, she would probably probably mean more
23:18
Speaker 2: problems for the correctional officers if she was not able
23:21
Speaker 2: to tolerate a cell, so they put her in some
23:24
Speaker 2: specialized kind of you know, room facility.
23:28
Speaker 1: Right, So in this case, murder can be reduced to
23:31
Speaker 1: manslaughter if the defendant is able to prove that there
23:34
Speaker 1: was an abnormality of mind, which is an impaired mental responsibility.
23:39
Speaker 1: So in Hong Kong, defendants who claim self defense or
23:43
Speaker 1: diminish responsibility are strongly expected to testify. If a defendant
23:48
Speaker 1: does not testify, jurors are legally allowed to draw adverse
23:51
Speaker 1: inferences from their silence. Unlike here aout here right where
23:56
Speaker 1: we talk about the Fifth Amendment, and how.
23:59
Speaker 2: Well then com pleading the fifth Someone choosing to be
24:02
Speaker 2: silent can't be used against you.
24:03
Speaker 1: Right, even though they say that if someone chooses not
24:07
Speaker 1: to testify in their own defense, don't you just.
24:10
Speaker 2: Because you the prosecutor can't bring that up. You can't
24:13
Speaker 2: say things like and the defendant isn't willing to testify
24:15
Speaker 2: because he's clearly guilty, right, Or you can't say that,
24:18
Speaker 2: and the defendant asked to speak to an attorney, so
24:20
Speaker 2: we didn't question him, right, You can't even say that.
24:31
Speaker 1: So Nancy decides to testify, which wasn't technically mandatory, but
24:35
Speaker 1: it was strategic because in Hong Kong, like we talked about,
24:38
Speaker 1: it's almost unavoidable because if you're going to have a
24:40
Speaker 1: self defense defense, then you have to testify to the
24:45
Speaker 1: fact of your mental state at the time. If Nancy
24:48
Speaker 1: refused to testify, it could have seriously damaged her defense.
24:52
Speaker 1: So her self defense claim, she told the jury that
24:55
Speaker 1: she did not plan to kill her husband, but acted
24:58
Speaker 1: in self defense after he attacked her. She testified that
25:01
Speaker 1: he brandished a baseball bat during an argument and tried
25:05
Speaker 1: to force sex on her in a way that she
25:07
Speaker 1: described as abusive. According to her, a frenzied struggle ensued
25:12
Speaker 1: in their bedroom, leading to her hitting him with a
25:15
Speaker 1: heavy metal ornament.
25:17
Speaker 2: I know she.
25:19
Speaker 1: Starts testifying that he was a heavy drinker and a
25:24
Speaker 1: cocaine user, and that he was sexually forceful and verbally
25:28
Speaker 1: abusive with her, and that she testified also that his
25:30
Speaker 1: behavior changed after the birth of their first child in
25:33
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, and that his conduct worsened over the years.
25:37
Speaker 1: The problem is is, I don't think there was anything
25:39
Speaker 1: to corroborate any of this, and she would never told
25:42
Speaker 1: anyone any of this. So well, that's what it sounds like.
25:47
Speaker 2: Have I pursed out a milkshaking? In her defense, she's
25:52
Speaker 2: totally just forgot about that part about the milkshakeyls there
25:55
Speaker 2: was there evidence about that.
25:56
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure in the autopsy they found all those.
25:58
Speaker 2: Sedatives and is and then the neighbor friends that I
26:02
Speaker 2: and the.
26:02
Speaker 1: Neighbor I had had the same milkshake. Also, I know
26:07
Speaker 1: her close friends in Hong Kong and the people that
26:10
Speaker 1: she was hanging out with said that she had never
26:12
Speaker 1: never told them that there were any problems in their marriage,
26:15
Speaker 1: or that he was abusive, or that he yelled at her,
26:17
Speaker 1: or that there was anything, which I mean doesn't actually mean.
26:20
Speaker 1: You know, you never know what goes on behind closed doors,
26:23
Speaker 1: But there's just nothing that would corroborate this type of
26:28
Speaker 1: violence that she's talking about that she endured all these years.
26:31
Speaker 1: Also when she was in Vermont. If he was as
26:34
Speaker 1: abusive as she claims, and he was an alcoholic and
26:36
Speaker 1: he was doing cocaine and he was sodomizing her and
26:39
Speaker 1: all these things that she claimed that he did, why
26:41
Speaker 1: wouldn't you just stay in Vermont? She I don't know,
26:44
Speaker 1: So I don't know if I believe this story that
26:46
Speaker 1: of all these things about him, and Nancy admitted under
26:50
Speaker 1: cross examination that she had and an extramarital relationship in
26:54
Speaker 1: two thousand and three with Michael del Priori. He's the
26:57
Speaker 1: TV repairman that we talked about earlier. She had met
27:00
Speaker 1: him while the family was in Vermont during the Star's outbreak.
27:04
Speaker 1: Prosecutors used this affair to argue that Nancy had a
27:07
Speaker 1: motive that she allegedly planned to kill her husband collect
27:11
Speaker 1: his wealth. I guess there was about eighteen million dollars
27:14
Speaker 1: worth of insurance stocks and property. I know he had
27:16
Speaker 1: a very pretty extensive estate.
27:19
Speaker 2: She probably would have gotten more she just divorced him. Probably,
27:23
Speaker 2: I think she would have gotten you know, presumably half
27:26
Speaker 2: whatever their worth was. And it was a long term marriage,
27:29
Speaker 2: she would have continued to get monthly payments for a
27:31
Speaker 2: long time.
27:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, because she didn't work during the marriage.
27:33
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I don't know what Hung KONGI in
27:38
Speaker 2: law is though. I don't know either, but I doubted
27:41
Speaker 2: that she looked into that. No, like, what are my
27:44
Speaker 2: other options? Right, okay, all roads lead to killing my husband.
27:48
Speaker 1: Well, I think she was truly in love with this,
27:50
Speaker 1: So that's what the prosecutors focused on, was the fact
27:52
Speaker 1: that her motive was to get rid of her husband
27:54
Speaker 1: so that she could then about the eighteen million dollars
27:59
Speaker 1: worth of insurance, and then she could marry the TV
28:01
Speaker 1: repair man because now she has all this money, yeah,
28:05
Speaker 1: and then she can run off with this guy. Rob
28:07
Speaker 1: Kissel discovered the affair when he used spyware on her computer,
28:11
Speaker 1: and then we do know that later he said that
28:14
Speaker 1: he wanted to divorce her, and then allegedly the day
28:17
Speaker 1: he tells her that he wants to get a divorce
28:18
Speaker 1: is the day she comes up with the milkshake, the sedative.
28:22
Speaker 1: I guess she went to all. I do know she
28:24
Speaker 1: went to several different doctors to get all these different prescriptions.
28:27
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure how farng like she said, probably
28:31
Speaker 1: in September first of two thousand and five. This is
28:34
Speaker 1: Nancy's trial and it lasted sixty five days. Her own
28:39
Speaker 1: testimony took up ten days alone. Finally, Nancy was convicted
28:43
Speaker 1: of murder and sentenced to life in prison at Hong
28:45
Speaker 1: Kong's High Court.
28:47
Speaker 2: So she's going to be in prison in Hong Kong
28:49
Speaker 2: for the rest of her life.
28:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean she appeals it.
28:52
Speaker 2: And her husband's dead. And these kids were how old.
28:57
Speaker 1: They were young at the time. I don't remember the
28:58
Speaker 1: exact ages, but she had three children and they were
29:00
Speaker 1: pretty young. So while all this is going on, where
29:04
Speaker 1: are Nancy and Rob's children? So the three children were
29:07
Speaker 1: moved around, initially living with Nancy's father his name is Ira,
29:12
Speaker 1: before he gave them over to Nancy's twenty four year
29:16
Speaker 1: old half brother. Then finally they ended up with Rob's
29:20
Speaker 1: brother Andrew and his wife Hayley. So these kids were
29:23
Speaker 1: shuffled around a lot in the beginning. Andrew, who is
29:30
Speaker 1: Rob's older brother actually ends up getting murdered later.
29:34
Speaker 2: What. Yeah, this is the brother that took in the
29:37
Speaker 2: kids in the end.
29:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is the brother and his wife that
29:40
Speaker 1: end up taking in the kids. We could do a
29:43
Speaker 1: whole episode on just his brother, but we're going to
29:46
Speaker 1: talk about it a little bit. But anyway, so when
29:49
Speaker 1: Andrew takes the kids, this is Rob's brother. Andrew was
29:52
Speaker 1: experiencing immense financial troubles at this time, but I don't
29:56
Speaker 1: think anybody knew about it. I think he was trying
29:58
Speaker 1: to keep everything under wraps. But in July of two
30:01
Speaker 1: thousand and five, Andrew was arrested in his Vermont vacation
30:04
Speaker 1: home and charged with fraud in three different states. He
30:07
Speaker 1: was expected to play guilty to bank fraud in federal
30:10
Speaker 1: court and face years in prison. His marriage was also
30:13
Speaker 1: breaking down because his wife, Haley, had filed for divorce
30:17
Speaker 1: and moved out with all of the children. And then
30:20
Speaker 1: in two thousand and six, Andrew Kissel was found dead
30:23
Speaker 1: in his home by movers. So the brother ends up
30:28
Speaker 1: getting murdered his brother. So here's the difference in these
30:31
Speaker 1: two brothers. You have two brothers, right, you have Rob
30:33
Speaker 1: and Andrew Andrew's the older brother. Rob's the younger brother.
30:37
Speaker 1: They both come from the exact same environment, right, they
30:40
Speaker 1: came from a wealthy environment. I think the dad may
30:43
Speaker 1: have been some controlling. I know that they had on
30:46
Speaker 1: and off relationships with the father. But you have Rob,
30:49
Speaker 1: who was the brother that ended up being the one
30:52
Speaker 1: that was, like we just talked about this, even though
30:55
Speaker 1: he came from a wealthy family, he ended up going
30:57
Speaker 1: to school and becoming successful all on his own and
31:00
Speaker 1: making a lot of money. I would say he was
31:02
Speaker 1: pretty straight and narrow, like, followed the rules, went to school,
31:05
Speaker 1: what's college all the things. Andrew is the older brother
31:10
Speaker 1: who took a completely different route. I think that his
31:15
Speaker 1: intent was to be as successful or more successful than
31:17
Speaker 1: his brother. However, he did not do it by legal means.
31:22
Speaker 1: So he ends up opening up his own real estate
31:25
Speaker 1: firm company. And I think the first thing that he
31:29
Speaker 1: gets caught doing is he and his wife live in
31:32
Speaker 1: a co op in New York City and he ends
31:34
Speaker 1: up being the treasurer for this co op. But he
31:37
Speaker 1: gets caught embezzling millions of dollars and he's putting the
31:41
Speaker 1: money into his personal account. So I guess he created
31:44
Speaker 1: all these fake invoices and things.
31:45
Speaker 2: And if his parent is successful and his brother is successful,
31:49
Speaker 2: he obviously was exposed to a lot of things to
31:52
Speaker 2: know how to kind of, you know, finagle his way
31:56
Speaker 2: into this stuff and schmoos over the bankers and whatnot.
32:00
Speaker 2: Maybe even had some clout with his family name.
32:02
Speaker 1: Maybe, So he ends up having the presentation that he
32:07
Speaker 1: has a very elite, affluent lifestyle. He has a yacht.
32:11
Speaker 2: Well, it makes sense the family, so it makes sense.
32:14
Speaker 2: It's not like out of line where they're like, where
32:15
Speaker 2: did this guy?
32:16
Speaker 1: So he ends up embezzling money. He gets caught embezzling
32:19
Speaker 1: millions of dollars from this co op, and he ends
32:23
Speaker 1: up getting caught because there's other people on this board
32:25
Speaker 1: that ends up going through the invoices and things and
32:27
Speaker 1: they're looking and you know, he created all these fake
32:30
Speaker 1: invoices showing work, like for example, showing that you know,
32:33
Speaker 1: a hallway was done or refurbished or something for millions
32:37
Speaker 1: of dollars, and they're thinking, what are you talking about.
32:39
Speaker 1: There's no way there was millions of dollars put into
32:41
Speaker 1: this hallway, right, So he ends up admitting that he
32:50
Speaker 1: embezzled money. And instead of I don't think he's arrested
32:54
Speaker 1: or anything. He doesn't get in any kind of criminal
32:55
Speaker 1: trouble because he says that he'll pay it back, so
32:57
Speaker 1: he ends up paying back. It's like four millions sellers
33:00
Speaker 1: or something.
33:01
Speaker 2: I gotta go borrow some money on here and I'll
33:02
Speaker 2: pay it, right, I.
33:03
Speaker 1: Can pay this back.
33:04
Speaker 2: Do this all the time.
33:06
Speaker 1: Because he also had some type of scheme going on
33:08
Speaker 1: with his real estate firm where he was getting loans
33:12
Speaker 1: and large amounts of money, and then he was creating
33:14
Speaker 1: documents that said that the loan was paid off that
33:18
Speaker 1: he created himself. Then he was showing these documents to
33:22
Speaker 1: different banks getting more loans, and of course they want
33:25
Speaker 1: to deal with him because he presents as like this
33:28
Speaker 1: because he pays back his loans, and he presents himself
33:30
Speaker 1: as this big developer with this large.
33:31
Speaker 2: Real estate bank money and then paying them back supposedly
33:37
Speaker 2: but not really paying them back. Future bankers are thinking, oh,
33:40
Speaker 2: you pay back and make interest. Okay, great, here's some
33:42
Speaker 2: more money.
33:43
Speaker 1: So he's living this larger than life lifestyle with his
33:46
Speaker 1: huge home and yachts and Lamborghinis and like all the things.
33:49
Speaker 1: But it's all by a fraud anyway. On April thirty,
33:53
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, Andrew Kissel was found dead in
33:55
Speaker 1: his home and his hands and feet were bound. He
33:58
Speaker 1: was blindfolded and gag and he had been stabbed multiple times.
34:03
Speaker 1: Andrew had a personal assistant chauffeur driver named Carlos Trujillo,
34:10
Speaker 1: and Carlos Trujillo ends up being arrested and charged in
34:15
Speaker 1: connection with the murder, along with his has cousins Leonard
34:18
Speaker 1: and Jerrer. It's Jai r. I'm not exactly sure how
34:22
Speaker 1: to pronounce that, but their last name is true Hello,
34:24
Speaker 1: as well their charge in connection with the murder after
34:27
Speaker 1: police followed up on a credit card found at Carlos's
34:30
Speaker 1: home and then covered some testimony or conversation about a plot.
34:35
Speaker 1: I watched a I think it was a dateline or
34:37
Speaker 1: something where they were interviewing Carlos and he said that
34:41
Speaker 1: Andrew was like a father to him, he was very
34:44
Speaker 1: close to him. He said he didn't have anything to
34:46
Speaker 1: do with the murder. And he also and he offered
34:48
Speaker 1: to take a lie detector test. So he takes a
34:51
Speaker 1: lie detector test, and I think he ends up like
34:54
Speaker 1: literally failing every single question on the light detector test
34:58
Speaker 1: and he ends up charged a convicted for the murder. However,
35:01
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that don't believe this story.
35:05
Speaker 1: There are a lot of people that believe that Andrew
35:09
Speaker 1: had wanted to commit suicide, but because if he committed suicide,
35:14
Speaker 1: his children would not inherit his estate, so that he
35:18
Speaker 1: was involved in some kind of conspiracy where he had
35:20
Speaker 1: possibly hired them to kill him so that his children
35:27
Speaker 1: would inherit.
35:29
Speaker 2: All one final scam, right, We're going to go out
35:31
Speaker 2: with the biggest scam of them all.
35:33
Speaker 1: So after all of this, Robin, Nancy's three children end
35:36
Speaker 1: up going to live. This is the final destination where
35:39
Speaker 1: they actually end up living, because they were moved around
35:41
Speaker 1: a lot during all of this. They go and live
35:43
Speaker 1: with Robin Andrew's sister Jane. All right, So then we
35:47
Speaker 1: get back to Nancy because obviously she's going to appeal
35:50
Speaker 1: her conviction. Nancy's original conviction was upheld in April of
35:55
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight on appeal. In February of twenty ten,
36:00
Speaker 1: the Court of Final Appeal quashed her conviction on procedural
36:04
Speaker 1: grounds and ordered a retrial. So Nancy actually goes back
36:08
Speaker 1: and retries this case in this is March twenty fifth
36:13
Speaker 1: of twenty eleven. By the twenty eleven retrial, Nancy appeared
36:19
Speaker 1: extremely frail, and court defense lawyers used her weight loss
36:23
Speaker 1: and psychological state as evidence that she was not in
36:27
Speaker 1: a rational mental condition at the time of the killing. However,
36:32
Speaker 1: Nancy was again found guilty of murder and once again
36:35
Speaker 1: sentenced to life imprisonment, and that is where she is
36:39
Speaker 1: to today. She is still in prison for life for
36:43
Speaker 1: the killing of her husband, Robert Kissel.
36:46
Speaker 2: Andrew Kissel had a fifteen million dollar policy did it
36:49
Speaker 2: go to his children? After his two thousand and six murder,
36:52
Speaker 2: the insurers sought to recind or cancel the policy, arguing
36:56
Speaker 2: he made material misrepresentations on his application. I said, likely
37:01
Speaker 2: the children didn't anything because the policy was avoided.
37:03
Speaker 1: Oh so we don't know for sure.
37:05
Speaker 2: But what happens when you're a fraud star You can't
37:07
Speaker 2: even fill on application properly without I'm just going to
37:10
Speaker 2: a bunch of you know, he probably inflated his income,
37:13
Speaker 2: is worth, his health, all these things? Right, okay, because
37:17
Speaker 2: let me ask you, so they got out of it,
37:20
Speaker 2: even if even if it was a murder can.
37:22
Speaker 1: You get a fifteen million dollar insurance policy if you're
37:25
Speaker 1: not worth fifteen.
37:27
Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think so. I think I
37:29
Speaker 2: used to think, well, then you just pay a super
37:31
Speaker 2: high premium. Right, They're like, okay, you want to pay
37:33
Speaker 2: us a ridiculus amount of money or I'm sure, but
37:36
Speaker 2: I think there's laws in place to like to control it,
37:41
Speaker 2: so you can't. You have to have some financial benefit
37:44
Speaker 2: with them too, or some type of connection with the person.
37:47
Speaker 2: You can't, like, I can't just take one out on
37:50
Speaker 2: on Megan Markle right and be like, you.
37:53
Speaker 1: Know, she's not doing too well.
37:54
Speaker 2: You got a lot of enemies. Otherwise you're just really gambling.
37:58
Speaker 2: You just play some bets. But there has to be
38:01
Speaker 2: some financial dependency or some dependency of some kind.
38:07
Speaker 1: Does your ex wife still have an insurance policy on you?
38:11
Speaker 1: You should ask her.
38:12
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter to me so well, if someone else
38:14
Speaker 2: wants to pay the premiums, well, what matters to me?
38:17
Speaker 2: Probably not.
38:18
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think you need to look into that.
38:21
Speaker 2: Probably. I didn't know. If you have one on me,
38:23
Speaker 2: I do, Yeah, yeah, it does. I have a murder
38:26
Speaker 2: clause in it.
38:27
Speaker 1: I think they all have murder clauses, don't they It
38:31
Speaker 1: does a milkshake clause.
38:34
Speaker 2: Milkshakes in my yard, and.
38:37
Speaker 1: My milkshake brings all the voice to the yard.
38:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, shake, sedates all the yeah.
38:45
Speaker 1: All right, guys, that is the case of the milkshake
38:48
Speaker 1: murders and Nancy and Rob kissel I thought it was
38:53
Speaker 1: a really interesting case. Thank you guys for the recommendation.
38:55
Speaker 1: I enjoyed looking into that and so we appreciate that. Again,
39:00
Speaker 1: thank you so much for listening. Please tell your friends
39:02
Speaker 1: and family also be sure to follow legally Brunette wherever
39:06
Speaker 1: you listen to your podcasts, And we thank you for
39:10
Speaker 1: your for listening and also for the recommendations and any
39:14
Speaker 1: dms you like to send. A lot of people send
39:15
Speaker 1: me dms because they have more insight into cases. Like
39:18
Speaker 1: I've had people that, like I've.
39:21
Speaker 2: Had correct not usually correct, you're usually right, not.
39:25
Speaker 1: Usually right, but but I've had people, especially I've had
39:28
Speaker 1: a couple correctional officers that have worked in jail systems
39:33
Speaker 1: where like, for example, the very first episode we did
39:36
Speaker 1: on Till Death to Its Part was Betty Broderick. I mean,
39:39
Speaker 1: I had a correctional officer reach out and send me
39:41
Speaker 1: a long DM that said that she had been in
39:43
Speaker 1: the same jail with her and said she was a
39:45
Speaker 1: horrible person, and she like, so, I mean, it's interesting.
39:48
Speaker 1: You know, you have a lot of listeners, not really so,
39:52
Speaker 1: you know, I love your guys' insight, So please keep
39:54
Speaker 1: sending that my way, and again, thank you so much
39:57
Speaker 1: for listening.
39:58
Speaker 2: Thank you