Latest / Coffee and Bible Time Podcast / Confronting and Understanding Evil | Ingrid Faro

Transcript

Confronting and Understanding Evil | Ingrid Faro · Coffee and Bible Time Podcast

• 1:01
  Ellen Krause: At the Coffee and Bible Time podcast, o ur goal is to help you delight in God's Word and thrive in Christian living.
• 1:07
  Ellen Krause: Each week we talk to subject matter experts who broaden your biblical understanding, encourage you in hard times and provide life-building tips to enhance your Christian walk.
• 1:18
  Ellen Krause: We are so glad you have joined us.
• 1:21
  Ellen Krause: Welcome back to the Coffee and Bible Time podcast.
• 1:30
  Ellen Krause: This is Ellen, your host.
• 1:32
  Ellen Krause: Evil is something that shakes us.
• 1:35
  Ellen Krause: It can leave us feeling lost, broken and without hope.
• 1:40
  Ellen Krause: Leave us feeling lost, broken and without hope.
• 1:46
  Ellen Krause: We've all felt its sting and it's easy to wonder how we are supposed to respond to it.
• 1:48
  Ellen Krause: In this episode, we are blessed to be joined by Ingrid Faro, author of the book Demystifying Evil a biblical and personal exploration.
• 1:59
  Ellen Krause: Ingrid dives deep into the Bible, history and her own painful experiences to show that, while evil is real, it doesn't get the final word.
• 2:09
  Ellen Krause: We need to acknowledge the reality of evil and then look to the biblical story for guidance.
• 2:16
  Ellen Krause: It's also important to reflect on our own lives and recognize the ways we might be unknowingly colluding with it.
• 2:25
  Ellen Krause: If we let evil have its way, it can divide us from each other and God.
• 2:31
  Ellen Krause: It distorts our perspective and leads us to despair.
• 2:35
  Ellen Krause: Tempting us to accept its power is final, and that simply is not true.
• 2:41
  Ellen Krause: Ingrid Faro is professor of Old Testament and coordinator of the Masters in Old Testament Jerusalem University College program.
• 2:50
  Ellen Krause: Ingrid is an author and international speaker on topics including deconstructing evil, navigating suffering, forgiveness, lament, abuse, forgiveness, lament Abuse and Power Dynamics, women in the Bible and Ministry, genesis and Ecclesiastes.
• 3:07
  Ellen Krause: In addition to Demystifying Evil, Ingrid is also the author of Evil in Genesis and co-author of Honest Answer.
• 3:17
  Ellen Krause: Please welcome Ingrid.
• 3:21
  Ingrid Faro: Thanks.
• 3:21
  Ingrid Faro: It's so good to be with you, Ellen.
• 3:23
  Ingrid Faro: Thank you.
• 3:24
  Ellen Krause: Well, it's such a joy and I want my listeners to know that you've come on the highest of recommendations from a dear mentor of mine and someone that you know as well.
• 3:38
  Ellen Krause: So, Belinda, thank you for the recommendation and welcome, Ingrid, thank you.
• 3:45
  Ellen Krause: Well, Ingrid, I thought we would just maybe start out by having you tell us a little bit about your personal story and why you chose to do biblical research on evil.
• 3:59
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, thank you.
• 4:00
  Ingrid Faro: The whole reason I started studying theology was because of the hardships, the abuse, the trauma that I had been through in my personal life over a couple of decades or so, and I had so many questions.
• 4:14
  Ingrid Faro: I didn't know anymore if God was good, I didn't know if I could trust him, I didn't know if he loved me, I didn't know if he was just, and I didn't want to go back to church because I had experienced a lot of hurts from pastors there, and so it was a tough place to be in.
• 4:35
  Ingrid Faro: And I had come to a point where, for a couple of years, with the only reason that I knew I still believed in God was I knew I had come to a point where, for a couple of years, with the only reason that I knew I still believed in God was I knew I had encountered God before.
• 4:45
  Ingrid Faro: I knew I had encountered Jesus' love and forgiveness.
• 4:49
  Ingrid Faro: So I knew I couldn't throw God out.
• 4:51
  Ingrid Faro: But I was just wounded, and I certainly know many, many, many people who are in that situation, and that's certainly where I was.
• 5:02
  Ingrid Faro: And so what I did?
• 5:05
  Ingrid Faro: I had thrown myself into work, I was in the business world and I just became a workaholic, so I didn't have to hear what I was thinking or feel what I was feeling, as long as I could just keep plowing ahead, get up and throw myself into work and see some success there that had come to satisfy me until I worked myself into a disability and suddenly I was faced with having to sit still.
• 5:29
  Ingrid Faro: And it was during that time God got hold of me and there was a point where I knew God spoke to me and had spoken to my heart saying you go get answers for yourself out of scripture.
• 5:41
  Ingrid Faro: Had spoken to my heart saying you go get answers for yourself out of scripture and for you and this is my insert inserting because I was so hardheaded and God knew me, he also knew the plans for me.
• 5:48
  Ingrid Faro: He said for you, go get answers from the Greek and the Hebrew.
• 5:51
  Ingrid Faro: So I started studying theology quite a bit later in life and just continued to study and life kept having problems.
• 6:03
  Ingrid Faro: But I over time began to discover and find God and get to know God and discover that God really did love me and really is good.
• 6:15
  Ingrid Faro: But it was a long journey.
• 6:16
  Ingrid Faro: But I'm so thankful because I went from being a person who was actually jealous at funerals.
• 6:22
  Ingrid Faro: I wouldn't go to funerals because I was jealous that I had to stay To now.
• 6:26
  Ingrid Faro: It's like Lord, give me to 100.
• 6:28
  Ingrid Faro: Give me to 120.
• 6:29
  Ingrid Faro: I got more to do, so I know how God can truly, truly transform a life.
• 6:35
  Ingrid Faro: He began with mine, as he has with so many others, and I just continue to see God at work, giving people hope, encouragement and reboot for their life as we find him, and that really was the core.
• 6:50
  Ingrid Faro: So I knew from right away that I needed to study evil, because that was what I was confronted with, and I know I had to confront it rather than continue to run from it.
• 7:07
  Ellen Krause: Well, Ingrid, that's one of the things that just impressed me so much about your writing was just your willingness to be vulnerable and share your very personal stories.
• 7:13
  Ellen Krause: But yet people can relate to those, and seeing someone else's hardships and how you've you've traversed it, you you've sought um deeper understanding, and that really has led to this um healing aspect of what you've gone through.
• 7:35
  Ellen Krause: Well, so, to demystify evil, we must understand what is good.
• 7:42
  Ellen Krause: Right, how would you go about defining what is good?
• 7:47
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, and in my studies and talking with people and even in my own life, I realized well, in order to define evil we have to start.
• 7:57
  Ingrid Faro: If we want to understand evil from a biblical perspective, from God's perspective, I had to start with where the Bible starts, which is with creation, where seven times God looks at what he had made and says it is good, and then he just keeps repeating that so that sevenfold we know that's a term, that's in the Hebrew Bible that really draws attention when something is said or done seven times it's like pay attention.
• 8:23
  Ingrid Faro: And and then also in Genesis two, where the first command the first time the word command is used in the Bible Someone had asked me before I studied it I would have thought it said don't eat from that tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
• 8:38
  Ingrid Faro: But the first time the word command, the Lord, god, commanded, saying of all the trees in the garden, eat freely.
• 8:44
  Ingrid Faro: And so his first command is look at everything I've given you.
• 8:47
  Ingrid Faro: You're lacking nothing.
• 8:48
  Ingrid Faro: Enjoy it.
• 8:50
  Ingrid Faro: And realizing that God made everything good, he made everything beautiful, he made everything abundant, he made everything flourishing.
• 8:58
  Ingrid Faro: In Genesis 1 and 2.
• 9:00
  Ingrid Faro: There is no conflict, there's harmony, there's beautiful, peace, abundance.
• 9:06
  Ingrid Faro: So all these words that become associated with what is good are things that we can all appreciate.
• 9:13
  Ingrid Faro: We know, when we see something that is good and God even gave things to taste good, to look, to be beautiful, I mean all of this and he gave us companionship.
• 9:25
  Ingrid Faro: And so just recognizing that that also, god unlike us is consistent, what God thinks is consistent with what he says, which is consistent with what he does, and it's consistent with what he makes.
• 9:40
  Ingrid Faro: And you know, we're not quite like that.
• 9:42
  Ingrid Faro: We think one thing, we say another, we do another, you know.
• 9:45
  Ingrid Faro: But God wants us to learn what goodness is from him, and so I began to encounter God and his goodness and I began to give God a chance.
• 9:55
  Ingrid Faro: That was how I started, just giving God a chance.
• 9:58
  Ingrid Faro: And you know, sometimes when you don't trust someone because you know, for whatever reason, it's been broken.
• 10:04
  Ingrid Faro: So I had to start with just a little bit and as I gave God a little bit more, began talking with him, and even that's in the process I learned what lament is being honest with God and discovery.
• 10:15
  Ingrid Faro: I didn't know I could be honest with God.
• 10:17
  Ingrid Faro: I wasn't taught that.
• 10:18
  Ingrid Faro: I remember the first time that I locked myself in my bathroom, raised my fist I read that yes.
• 10:28
  Ingrid Faro: And I started yelling at God.
• 10:29
  Ingrid Faro: And then I kind of ducked because I was alone in the house but I'd still lock myself in the bathroom because I didn't know if it was allowed.
• 10:36
  Ingrid Faro: I was afraid I'd get hit with a lightning bolt and be dead in the morning.
• 10:39
  Ingrid Faro: But instead it opened up conversation and God simply engaged me and I discovered that God wanted my honesty, because that's what a relationship is it's being able to be honest with somebody, even in the hurts and the pain and the disappointments.
• 10:57
  Ingrid Faro: And so this over time, more and more healing came into my life.
• 11:02
  Ingrid Faro: So, yeah, it started with just taking a chance that maybe God actually was good, even though I still wasn't convinced, and then being honest with him and engaging in conversation, engaging in developing a very real relationship, while I was studying his word, and so God's word became more and more real to me.
• 11:21
  Ingrid Faro: And as I studied his word, suddenly a little something would pop out.
• 11:27
  Ingrid Faro: You know, I think most of us can hopefully relate to that.
• 11:30
  Ingrid Faro: You're studying something you might have read many times, but all of a sudden it pops out and it lights up and it becomes real.
• 11:37
  Ingrid Faro: And I'll just mention one of those moments it was you know, I was still going through some really, really hard, heavy stuff and the verse that everybody knows, even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me.
• 11:52
  Ingrid Faro: And that kind of you know, dropped into my mind.
• 11:55
  Ingrid Faro: I'm thinking, yeah, that's a good verse.
• 11:57
  Ingrid Faro: And all of a sudden I just heard the Spirit of God say don't lay down in the valley of the shadow of death, don't set up camp there.
• 12:05
  Ingrid Faro: I am with you to bring you through this.
• 12:08
  Ingrid Faro: Fear nothing bad.
• 12:10
  Ingrid Faro: I was like all of a sudden boom and trust was built a little bit more.
• 12:15
  Ingrid Faro: It's like okay, so it was this ongoing, and that's why the subtitle biblical and personal exploration, because it was theologically deep.
• 12:27
  Ingrid Faro: So much of my healing was when I was deep in studying the Hebrew and again my dissertation was on evil from the Hebrew text of the book of Genesis.
• 12:36
  Ingrid Faro: So just digging into the Hebrew text and and so God's word would come alive and it would, and then it would mingle with my own story and my own hardships and the Lord would bring clarity.
• 12:48
  Ingrid Faro: And so it's just this beautiful mingling of God's word, god's spirit and God's presence and informing my mind, presence and informing my mind.
• 13:00
  Ingrid Faro: So you know, one says that's why the great Hebrew prayer, you know, hear, o Israel, the Lord.
• 13:06
  Ingrid Faro: God is one.
• 13:07
  Ingrid Faro: Love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul and all your strength.
• 13:16
  Ingrid Faro: And it's God wants us whole.
• 13:17
  Ingrid Faro: And so God gradually moved me from what I called a whack-a-mole theology, because I used to think every time I raised my head up, bam, I was going to get.
• 13:21
  Ingrid Faro: Because that's what I called a whack-a-mole theology, because I used to think every time I raised my head up, bam, I was going to get, because that's what I felt like life had been like.
• 13:25
  Ingrid Faro: And God slowly moved me to a shalom theology, which means wholeness, completeness, well-being.
• 13:33
  Ingrid Faro: And I came to learn that God wants me whole, integrated, where my mind, my soul, my heart, my spirit, my body are all being made whole as they all come together in him.
• 13:46
  Ingrid Faro: So my journey is just.
• 13:49
  Ingrid Faro: I have so much hope for anybody.
• 13:56
  Ellen Krause: You know, I think you've brought a whole new meaning to the Psalm 23 passage.
• 14:01
  Ellen Krause: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I love, I'm thinking of the word walk now and not getting stuck.
• 14:10
  Ingrid Faro: Yes.
• 14:10
  Ellen Krause: And I think so often we do get stuck.
• 14:13
  Ellen Krause: Yeah, but that word walk is so important.
• 14:19
  Ellen Krause: Yeah, I love that.
• 14:21
  Ellen Krause: You pointed that out.
• 14:22
  Ingrid Faro: Yes, because we do get stuck.
• 14:24
  Ingrid Faro: I was stuck, for I was probably stuck for almost 20 years and it took taking that chance to move ahead with God just again, starting with that little bit of trust.
• 14:36
  Ingrid Faro: And then you know, God just showing me, but it was, it was walking with him and walking through that.
• 14:42
  Ingrid Faro: He is with me and he did not want me to be afraid, but he was with me.
• 14:47
  Ingrid Faro: He didn't put me in there, but that's where I was.
• 14:50
  Ingrid Faro: And so each of us find ourselves in situations and God doesn't do evil.
• 14:55
  Ingrid Faro: You know, I think in James chapter one, God does not do evil, he doesn't bring evil upon us.
• 15:02
  Ingrid Faro: But this world, we were born into a conflict zone.
• 15:06
  Ingrid Faro: We're born into a world at war.
• 15:08
  Ingrid Faro: There are forces of evil and that was something I really had to grasp, grapple with as well, and that's.
• 15:14
  Ingrid Faro: I've got that section.
• 15:15
  Ingrid Faro: You know again, I've got the different sections in the book.
• 15:18
  Ingrid Faro: And where does evil come from?
• 15:20
  Ingrid Faro: You know, where do bad things, how do bad things happen, and being able to step back and say okay when something happens.
• 15:30
  Ingrid Faro: I love a quote from NT Wright in his book Evil and the Justice of God.
• 15:33
  Ingrid Faro: He says most of us face evil in three ways.
• 15:35
  Ingrid Faro: First, we don't expect it to happen.
• 15:37
  Ingrid Faro: So, second, when evil happens, it slaps us in the face.
• 15:40
  Ingrid Faro: And he said third, therefore, we tend to respond in immature and dangerous ways.
• 15:45
  Ingrid Faro: So yeah, that's not very flattering, but it's so true, Because I knee jerked reaction to pretty much everything that happened.
• 15:53
  Ingrid Faro: And and then I would say, Well, I guess I better take care of this myself, you know, or I would just react and make things worse, and that was that was the pattern.
• 16:01
  Ingrid Faro: Something bad would happen and I would make it worse, and then I would blame God for it.
• 16:05
  Ingrid Faro: So, yeah, so it's just being able to take it, take those breaths, step back and say, okay, God, where are you, when did this come from, and what's your strategy for me to walk through this and to see good come out of this?
• 16:24
  Ingrid Faro: And again, the story of Joseph has been so meaningful in my life because all the horrible things that happened, to Joseph at the end he says but those things evil happened and he calls them evil.
• 16:37
  Ingrid Faro: The things his brothers did, the things that Potiphar's wife did, those were evil.
• 16:40
  Ingrid Faro: He had evil things happen, people did evil.
• 16:41
  Ingrid Faro: The things his brothers did, the things that Potiphar's wife did, those were evil.
• 16:43
  Ingrid Faro: He had evil things happen, people did evil.
• 16:46
  Ingrid Faro: He doesn't call the evil good, he calls it evil.
• 16:49
  Ingrid Faro: But he came to a place where he continued to trust in God and saw God turn that.
• 16:57
  Ingrid Faro: Take the evil and I call it, untwist it.
• 16:59
  Ingrid Faro: You know, take it and turn it into something good and that becomes the goal, so that now when evil happens it's like okay, god, you have something good that you want to come out of this, because evil is not going to have the last word.
• 17:16
  Ingrid Faro: This hurt, this pain, this trauma, this abuse in my life with this person that I'm walking alongside with.
• 17:18
  Ingrid Faro: Evil's not going to have the last word.
• 17:19
  Ingrid Faro: This hurt, this pain, this trauma, this abuse in my life with this person that I'm walking alongside with.
• 17:22
  Ingrid Faro: Evil's not going to have the last word.
• 17:25
  Ingrid Faro: So it becomes kind of fighting words.
• 17:29
  Ellen Krause: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 17:31
  Ellen Krause: So if anyone's listening, I hope that you're hearing what Ingrid did at the very beginning.
• 17:37
  Ellen Krause: If you're in that state right now where you're wondering whether God is good, is going back to God's word and seeing what the Bible has to say about God and his character and his goodness, it's a great place to start.
• 17:55
  Ellen Krause: Well, on the contrary to what is good, what is the biblical definition of evil?
• 18:04
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, and of course I wrestled with that to try to come up with a clear answer.
• 18:13
  Ingrid Faro: And from the biblical text, my simplest answer is that evil is the corruption of creational and relational goodness.
• 18:23
  Ingrid Faro: So evil is not the absence of good.
• 18:27
  Ingrid Faro: Evil is not an entity that exists on its own.
• 18:31
  Ingrid Faro: That would be, you know, having two gods basically.
• 18:34
  Ingrid Faro: But evil gets its power from what God created good, because everything God created is good.
• 18:41
  Ingrid Faro: So the only way evil can get power is it takes power from what was intended, what God made for good, twists it corrupts it, pollutes, it turns it a different direction and takes that very force and makes it.
• 18:56
  Ingrid Faro: And that is where evil comes from.
• 18:58
  Ingrid Faro: And it can come from humans, it can come from spiritual entities, it can come also just from the principle of what I call action consequence.
• 19:07
  Ingrid Faro: Just like a seed has life embedded in it, so also words have life of their own embedded in the words that we speak.
• 19:17
  Ingrid Faro: And Jesus has a parable about that.
• 19:21
  Ingrid Faro: He says the sower.
• 19:22
  Ingrid Faro: So he talks about sowing seeds and so forth, and his disciples come and say well, what does that mean?
• 19:27
  Ingrid Faro: The sower sows the word.
• 19:29
  Ingrid Faro: And so he compares it with, you know, seeds with words.
• 19:34
  Ingrid Faro: Words have life in themselves, and we can all relate to that.
• 19:37
  Ingrid Faro: Things messages we grew up with, something that somebody said, whether it was a parent or a teacher, even sometimes a stranger.
• 19:44
  Ingrid Faro: People can say things that get embedded, that take root into our hearts, where we may believe oh, you'll never be worth anything, or you're just this, or you're not enough, or whatever these negative thoughts can be, you'll never be loved.
• 19:58
  Ingrid Faro: That was one that I had come to believe, and so these things can take root and corrupt goodness.
• 20:07
  Ingrid Faro: And so, just using the example of love, love is the strongest force in the world.
• 20:13
  Ingrid Faro: God is love, and so love has the greatest potential for good.
• 20:19
  Ingrid Faro: We can see that because of the love of God, because of the love of God, he sent Jesus Christ to die for our sins, because he so loved the world.
• 20:26
  Ingrid Faro: But somebody can meet someone and say I love you, and instead of wanting that love to be something that's flourishing and seeing that person you know highly valued, greatly esteemed, and wanting to see God's best, they can say I love you and I want you for myself, so I'm going to take you and you're going to now be mine, and all of a sudden it becomes this twisted, dark thing that we know how that can lead to, even to death.
• 20:54
  Ingrid Faro: And so the twisting of the most powerful thing, because everybody wants to be loved.
• 20:59
  Ingrid Faro: So someone says, oh, I love you and you believe them, but it's actually somebody who wants to take from you rather than give.
• 21:05
  Ingrid Faro: Then it can become the darkest, most destructive force in the world, but it gets it from the power of what God made good and what God intended for good.
• 21:16
  Ingrid Faro: Yes, yes.
• 21:18
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah.
• 21:19
  Ellen Krause: So I thought it was interesting that one of the things that you said was the hallmark of evil is the association between evil and selfishly taking for oneself without regard for others, or God.
• 21:37
  Ellen Krause: Yeah, and I was wondering if maybe I know you touched on that, but could you maybe just expound on that a little bit more for us?
• 21:47
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, yeah, and it's so beautifully laid out in scripture too.
• 21:51
  Ingrid Faro: And when I saw both how it was laid out, because, again, when God created, he saw, he evaluated and said it is good, in the end it is very good.
• 22:03
  Ingrid Faro: And then he gave it all to humanity and said it is good, you know, in the end it is very good.
• 22:07
  Ingrid Faro: And then he gave it all to humanity.
• 22:08
  Ingrid Faro: But when, in Genesis three, when the serpent came to tempt the woman and the man who was with her, it says clearly and that the woman and man.
• 22:16
  Ingrid Faro: So I always like to just make a point of that, because when the serpent's talking, he's using the plural, you, not the singular.
• 22:20
  Ingrid Faro: So the man and woman, and and he gets, he gets them to first of all believe that God is withholding something good from them, something that they really need.
• 22:31
  Ingrid Faro: Because instead of the first command, where God says of all the trees in the garden, eat freely, the servant says didn't God say you shall not eat of all the trees of the garden?
• 22:42
  Ingrid Faro: So he takes a positive, turns it into a negative and draws their attention to the one and only boundary that God had set in the garden and says let's look at that, let's look at the one thing God said you can't have and that is actually what you really need.
• 22:56
  Ingrid Faro: And that thing about dying God's lying, it's not true.
• 23:00
  Ingrid Faro: You're not going to die.
• 23:01
  Ingrid Faro: This is what you really need.
• 23:03
  Ingrid Faro: So the temptation is to not be thankful.
• 23:07
  Ingrid Faro: And when I say that, I think of Romans 1, when Paul talks about how God made himself known to all people.
• 23:15
  Ingrid Faro: But because they were not thankful in their hearts, they gave their minds over.
• 23:22
  Ingrid Faro: So it's coming in.
• 23:23
  Ingrid Faro: Instead of being thankful for what God has given us, let's look at what we don't have, and God must be withholding it.
• 23:29
  Ingrid Faro: And since God is withholding something that I want and I need and I've come to decide this is really good, I'm going to take it for myself.
• 23:37
  Ingrid Faro: And so that language.
• 23:40
  Ingrid Faro: The woman saw that the tree, and now she's seeing that it's.
• 23:43
  Ingrid Faro: It's first of all good for food, when God said it's going to kill you.
• 23:47
  Ingrid Faro: And then she's seeing that you know, it's delightful.
• 23:49
  Ingrid Faro: And now these, it's.
• 23:51
  Ingrid Faro: It's using a term that is used for for lust, for desire, and now she's desiring it.
• 23:58
  Ingrid Faro: Now it looks desirable to her.
• 24:00
  Ingrid Faro: So that's a new, the first time, that word, because it's there's.
• 24:03
  Ingrid Faro: So that's a new the first time, that word because there's a good desire in Genesis 2, but now it's a craving, now she craves, and now it was.
• 24:10
  Ingrid Faro: Also the desire was to make her wise.
• 24:14
  Ingrid Faro: So then it says so she saw and took.
• 24:16
  Ingrid Faro: And that she saw that it was good and took.
• 24:21
  Ingrid Faro: Well, god didn't say that it was good, but she saw from her perspective.
• 24:24
  Ingrid Faro: Oh, she saw that that's good and she took it for herself.
• 24:28
  Ingrid Faro: And the next time we see that exact same sentence structure is in Genesis 6, when the sons of God see that the daughters of humanity are good, and it uses that and took whichever they wanted.
• 24:41
  Ingrid Faro: And again, that was the introduction to the flood scene.
• 24:47
  Ingrid Faro: And so we continue to see that language of seeing something that is out of bounds.
• 24:51
  Ingrid Faro: David saw Bathsheba and took.
• 24:54
  Ingrid Faro: So we see Shechem saw Dinah, Jacob's daughter, and took.
• 25:00
  Ingrid Faro: So we see that seeing and taking, seeing something that God says this is not for you, this is not yours.
• 25:09
  Ingrid Faro: And some of the same language comes back.
• 25:11
  Ingrid Faro: The language of desire comes back in the 10th commandment coveting somebody else's wife or property or know their fields, jealousy, where you see and you take, and that is so core to corruption, that begins corruption rather than being thankful and saying Lord, because God gave us needs and desires in the garden.
• 25:39
  Ingrid Faro: He actually gave us needs and desires and that was part of his good creation.
• 25:42
  Ingrid Faro: But he wanted us to work with him, to grow and learn from him, partner with him to fill our needs and desires, and then that would be good.
• 25:53
  Ingrid Faro: So he gave those to us.
• 25:56
  Ingrid Faro: But when we go rogue and say no, I think I'm not going to trust God.
• 26:01
  Ingrid Faro: I need this, I want this.
• 26:03
  Ingrid Faro: That's the root of all pain, the root of all what I call commodifying people, where we're no longer looking at the person for the valuable person that God created them.
• 26:17
  Ingrid Faro: But how can this person benefit me?
• 26:19
  Ingrid Faro: And that's so much of the world.
• 26:23
  Ingrid Faro: How can this thing, how can this person thing benefit me, rather than what God wanted us to do is love our neighbor as ourselves and be like him, wanting to give and do everything for the good of community and for the good of his earth.
• 26:40
  Ingrid Faro: Instead, it's like how can I use this for me?
• 26:44
  Ellen Krause: So yeah, that's so core to every temptation, because it begins with a temptation yeah, would you say too that it's really so pride taking a route to saying well, my way, I think, is best, because I want to go my way.
• 27:02
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, yeah, and you're mentioning that.
• 27:07
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, and sorry if I'm talking too much, but I just, you know, it just is okay, all right.
• 27:13
  Ingrid Faro: But that was one of the amazing things that God showed me was so often I can do something that I think is really good.
• 27:21
  Ingrid Faro: Oh look, I'm helping this person and I may think it's really good, think is really good.
• 27:25
  Ingrid Faro: Oh look, I'm helping this person and I may think it's really good.
• 27:27
  Ingrid Faro: But if that's not what God wants me to do, in that, if that's not what that person actually needs, I may actually be doing evil, even though it looks good.
• 27:37
  Ingrid Faro: So sometimes you can, you know, just get like what so often?
• 27:39
  Ingrid Faro: What happens sometimes in missions, where you'll just give them a lot of money and then they become dependent on the money money instead of giving them so that you know what do they need to flourish?
• 27:48
  Ingrid Faro: You know, do they need a?
• 27:50
  Ingrid Faro: Well, do they need?
• 27:51
  Ingrid Faro: You know what do they need?
• 27:53
  Ingrid Faro: So it's like it's teaching them how to fish instead of giving them a fish, and so we can think, oh, I'm doing good, look at all these fish I'm giving out, but now I may be creating a worse problem, and so it's like, lord, you show me what you think is good.
• 28:09
  Ingrid Faro: So it's that Ephesians 2, we're seated with him in heavenly places.
• 28:13
  Ingrid Faro: Lord, how do you see things?
• 28:15
  Ingrid Faro: And so?
• 28:17
  Ingrid Faro: one of my predominant prayer has been Lord, show me what I need to know.
• 28:20
  Ingrid Faro: How do you see this situation?
• 28:22
  Ingrid Faro: So, no matter what it is, how do you see it?
• 28:25
  Ingrid Faro: Help me see it from your perspective so I can bring your goodness, not my concept of what's gonna make this better, because I sometimes my tendency is to wanna oh, let me go help, let me help.
• 28:40
  Ingrid Faro: And sometimes the Lord may say no, they need to learn how to stand up right now, just like trying to crack the butterfly out of its cocoon.
• 28:49
  Ingrid Faro: It'll never learn to fly.
• 28:51
  Ingrid Faro: So you know, that was me cracking open cocoons.
• 28:53
  Ingrid Faro: The Lord said stop.
• 28:55
  Ingrid Faro: So sometimes we can think we're really good as well and we may actually be doing.
• 29:01
  Ingrid Faro: And I had to just say it's.
• 29:03
  Ingrid Faro: You know again the biblical definition of evil.
• 29:05
  Ingrid Faro: You know not our cultural, because no culture has a definition of evil, because it changes with the culture.
• 29:11
  Ingrid Faro: You know, we've seen that in our own, you know in the US, we've seen that around the world and always people's idea of what's good and evil changes with the culture, with shifts.
• 29:21
  Ingrid Faro: But God's idea of good is what he is doing, because what God is doing will always be for the best of everybody involved and his creation.
• 29:31
  Ingrid Faro: So yeah so that was being honest with myself was tough.
• 29:36
  Ellen Krause: Well, it is for all of us.
• 29:38
  Ellen Krause: But I love that's just such an excellent, excellent point that you've asked God in prayer to show you his vision for things rather than your own, because, as you pointed out, that can get us into a lot of trouble.
• 29:56
  Ellen Krause: What we see is good.
• 29:58
  Ellen Krause: Well, what does the Bible say about overcoming evil?
• 30:04
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, say about overcoming evil.
• 30:09
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, and that's that is we all know is what's really hard, because we've, we've all experienced it.
• 30:11
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, it's just how much, how often, how early and how long you know it's, we all experienced these blows and sometimes they come as sucker punch.
• 30:21
  Ingrid Faro: Sometimes they're things that you know, people have grown up with and you know, but, um, but evil manifests in so many different ways and and um, and it can become, uh, we can, we can be overrun by it and feel like we can't even get up.
• 30:37
  Ingrid Faro: You know, run over, backed up where it's, don't even try to get up anymore, and um, and I.
• 30:43
  Ingrid Faro: But I believe that the first step is just to be willing to face it.
• 30:47
  Ingrid Faro: And well, actually, before that, I have to say, the first step really is just giving God a chance that maybe God is good.
• 30:55
  Ingrid Faro: Because if we don't believe that there is a God who is greater than we are and greater than our circumstances, that actually wants to come alongside us and help us through, that actually wants goodness in our life, that actually wants to take the evil, no matter how horrific, and turn it around, if we can't start with even that glimmer of hope, we can't do it on our own.
• 31:20
  Ingrid Faro: It's just too hard, and so sometimes it takes somebody coming alongside.
• 31:26
  Ingrid Faro: There's some people that it's like I can't trust God.
• 31:30
  Ingrid Faro: But then sometimes I'll say, well, can you trust me?
• 31:33
  Ingrid Faro: And so, okay, hold on to me as I'm holding on to God until I can connect those hands.
• 31:39
  Ingrid Faro: So sometimes we are the intermediary, interceding in the name of Jesus.
• 31:44
  Ingrid Faro: Sometimes we are the only Jesus, that a person, because the Jesus lives in us, so his powers in us, and so sometimes we have to believe for the other before they can even believe for themselves.
• 31:54
  Ingrid Faro: And that is, you know.
• 31:57
  Ingrid Faro: So we, just, wherever we are, we may need to first find somebody that that we know knows God, that we're willing to trust.
• 32:06
  Ingrid Faro: But God, no matter where we are or how beaten down we are, god wants to take us from where we are and bring us into a place of goodness and healing, and so of course we come across.
• 32:19
  Ingrid Faro: I have a chapter on forgiveness and forgiveness.
• 32:20
  Ingrid Faro: We come across.
• 32:21
  Ingrid Faro: I have a chapter on forgiveness and forgiveness.
• 32:25
  Ingrid Faro: I remember seeing this we know Jesus and his disciples did all kinds of miracles, you know, and he told even the 70, go raise the dead, heal the sick, cast out demons, you know, cleanse the leprosy and everything.
• 32:39
  Ingrid Faro: But there's only one time in the Gospels when the disciples said, oh Lord, increase our faith.
• 32:44
  Ingrid Faro: And it wasn't for any of that.
• 32:46
  Ingrid Faro: It was when they had a conversation about forgiveness and they said you know, lord?
• 32:51
  Ingrid Faro: Well, how many times should I forgive?
• 32:52
  Ingrid Faro: You know, seven times.
• 32:54
  Ingrid Faro: And Jesus said, no, 70 times, seven.
• 32:56
  Ingrid Faro: That's what they said.
• 32:57
  Ingrid Faro: Oh Lord, increase our faith.
• 32:59
  Ingrid Faro: I'm like, oh, I understand those who have wronged us.
• 33:04
  Ingrid Faro: And you know we tend to not have a good understanding of forgiveness because so often people throw that word around like it's you know, oh, just forgive them, like, really Just forgive them.
• 33:16
  Ingrid Faro: God sent his son, jesus Christ, to die on the cross to forgive us.
• 33:21
  Ingrid Faro: So we think it's easy and cheap.
• 33:23
  Ingrid Faro: You know it's there.
• 33:25
  Ingrid Faro: We think it's easy and cheap, but we have a savior who took upon himself the evil, and so it's something I'm working on right now is with a friend, a book on a biblical theology of forgiveness.
• 33:39
  Ingrid Faro: But there are some good things written about forgiveness, but so often we just throw it around.
• 33:45
  Ingrid Faro: But again, forgiveness growing in our relationship with God, you know, prayer, simply talking to God.
• 33:52
  Ingrid Faro: You know, just taking those wherever we are, just holding out our hand and saying, lord, help me.
• 33:59
  Ingrid Faro: And one of the classic verses that runs from the last verse of Genesis 4.
• 34:07
  Ingrid Faro: Throughout Scripture is everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
• 34:12
  Ingrid Faro: And so in Genesis 4, people began to call upon the name of the Lord after the fall and Cain and Abel and the chaos that was happening.
• 34:22
  Ingrid Faro: Just calling on the name of the Lord, believing that, god, I need your help.
• 34:27
  Ingrid Faro: And sometimes that is where we start.
• 34:31
  Ingrid Faro: God does hear our cries for help and then it's okay, lord, what do I need to know?
• 34:36
  Ingrid Faro: Help me where I am.
• 34:38
  Ingrid Faro: But it's again.
• 34:44
  Ingrid Faro: I wish there was a quick, easy answer, but everybody's journey is a little bit different, but it does begin with trust.
• 34:49
  Ingrid Faro: Usually there's forgiveness involved, but you can't just jump right into it.
• 34:53
  Ingrid Faro: But God wants our wholeness.
• 34:55
  Ingrid Faro: He came to heal the brokenhearted.
• 34:58
  Ingrid Faro: That was his opening statement when he introduced his ministry in Luke 4, quoting from Isaiah 61, the spirit of the Lord, god is upon, for he has anointed me to proclaim the good news, to heal the brokenhearted, to release the captives, set free the prisoners.
• 35:15
  Ingrid Faro: And we can be captive by so many things, we can be imprisoned by so many things, and medicine can heal a heart attack, but only God can truly bind up and bring healing to a broken heart.
• 35:29
  Ingrid Faro: But that is the mission of Jesus Christ, that's the mission he's given us in this world to bring him to be his, his, his, co-partners in bringing his healing to the brokenhearted and setting captives free.
• 35:46
  Ellen Krause: That's so, so encouraging.
• 35:48
  Ellen Krause: You know, one thing that just came to my mind when you were saying that is just the reminder, too, that Christ died for all of us, and our pastor right now is doing a special series on Moses and the Exodus, and it just reminds me of when they left the Exodus.
• 36:10
  Ellen Krause: It wasn't just the Jewish people left, that went right.
• 36:15
  Ellen Krause: They called on the name of the Lord, some of the Egyptians.
• 36:19
  Ellen Krause: So I just think that that's really encouraging too.
• 36:25
  Ellen Krause: If you're listening to this and maybe you're being so hard on yourself that God does not want, saved Everyone who wants to call on the name of the Lord and be saved.
• 36:44
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, and thanks so much for bringing up the fact.
• 36:47
  Ingrid Faro: Some who think that they're not worthy or not good enough, or that they you know that it's like no, god doesn't want me.
• 36:56
  Ingrid Faro: Thank you for bringing that up, because there are those who do feel like they're outside, beyond help.
• 37:02
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah.
• 37:04
  Ellen Krause: Yeah.
• 37:05
  Ingrid Faro: So the Exodus story is thanks for oh, that's beautiful.
• 37:09
  Ellen Krause: Well, Ingrid, throughout the book, you know you're just so genuine in sharing your personal testimony.
• 37:17
  Ellen Krause: What was the impact of writing this book on your own life and how can this book help others who are wrestling with life's hardships?
• 37:28
  Ellen Krause: Yeah, thanks.
• 37:32
  Ingrid Faro: It's this, and I published my dissertation, but that was academic.
• 37:37
  Ingrid Faro: And I published my dissertation, but that was academic.
• 37:46
  Ingrid Faro: But I had been doing a lot of speaking in different groups and even in different countries and so forth about abuse and trauma and the things that God had showed me.
• 37:56
  Ingrid Faro: I had a responsibility to share what God had taught me and I could see how it was helping other people, and so I already had this network of people who were working through and rediscovering God's goodness, and so it's been such an encouragement to people I don't know sending me emails or finding me on.
• 38:17
  Ingrid Faro: Facebook or you know, inviting me into a Zoom call because they're having a Bible study, you know?
• 38:22
  Ellen Krause: so in different ways.
• 38:23
  Ingrid Faro: So I've been able to, and even in my own church, you know, just sharing with people with different you know from many different situations, who are just seeing God differently.
• 38:35
  Ingrid Faro: And that's for me is, you know, when someone comes up and says this has changed my life, because the core is they're seeing God differently.
• 38:38
  Ingrid Faro: And that's for me is, you know, when someone comes up and says this has changed my life, because the core is they're seeing God differently and they're having hope Because they so many had been taught that you know well, this was God's will for your life or something, and and they so they had no hope, or you know, you're beyond help, or all the lies that they had come to believe.
• 38:57
  Ingrid Faro: And so I think the biggest thing is just that opportunity to taste.
• 39:03
  Ingrid Faro: It might just be that first taste of goodness that you've had a long time.
• 39:08
  Ingrid Faro: And I remember one woman who had come to a woman's retreat and she had come with her daughter and it was a full weekend and at the end she came up and she said I haven't been to church in 20 years and she said because I sinned.
• 39:24
  Ingrid Faro: And so I was told that you know, I was dirty and you know so she had quit, she hadn't been to church in 20 years and I saw her again a year later and she looked like a completely different person.
• 39:36
  Ingrid Faro: She had embraced the goodness of God, she had embraced forgiveness and she was just alive and she was part.
• 39:43
  Ingrid Faro: You know, she was in fellowshipping with people in church and just this vibrant, you know.
• 39:49
  Ingrid Faro: So when you get to see people whose lives are changed and I just like mine, I mean I'm an encouragement, you know, as I put in there.
• 39:58
  Ingrid Faro: You know, my first was studying to be a pastor, had a third of the New Testament memorized, but he was unfaithful and violent and I didn't escape until after he tried to kill me and I had been taught, you know, never say anything bad, you know.
• 40:11
  Ingrid Faro: And so that was just for starters, you know.
• 40:15
  Ingrid Faro: But you know other things that had happened.
• 40:17
  Ingrid Faro: So it's, it's giving people hope you know we'd talk about suicide and and so many of the really hard issues.
• 40:24
  Ingrid Faro: But um and, and we can, we can believe that God did it.
• 40:29
  Ingrid Faro: Uh, and so it's.
• 40:30
  Ingrid Faro: It's also, uh, some of it is just inviting people to give God and themselves another chance, to give life and goodness another chance that life can be good.
• 40:43
  Ingrid Faro: And it may take a while, it may take some courage, but I love the definition I put in there from courage is not the lack of fear, but it's taking action in the face of fear, and so it's like all right, you know, courage doesn't look like, you know just running in.
• 41:01
  Ingrid Faro: Sometimes it looks like knees knocking and like I don't know.
• 41:05
  Ingrid Faro: You know that was how I started.
• 41:07
  Ellen Krause: Yeah, yeah, you know.
• 41:09
  Ellen Krause: For a long time I had taped on my computer the passage from Second Timothy, for God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and love and sound mind.
• 41:18
  Ellen Krause: And that just always encouraged me that if I'm experiencing fear, it's not from God, and that his love and his caring, his being near and with us at all times should help put some of that anxiety at bay.
• 41:41
  Ellen Krause: Yes Well, Ingrid, how can people find out more information about you and the book?
• 41:51
  Ingrid Faro: Thank you.
• 41:51
  Ingrid Faro: It's on Amazon or most, I think it's on pretty much all Christian outlets of books as well.
• 42:01
  Ingrid Faro: I do have a website just my name, ingridfaro.
• 42:04
  Ingrid Faro: com, so, and you know.
• 42:08
  Ingrid Faro: So, yeah, I can be.
• 42:10
  Ingrid Faro: I can be found.
• 42:11
  Ingrid Faro: I'm also Northern Seminary.
• 42:13
  Ingrid Faro: You can also find me at it's just seminaryedu, and so also YouTube.
• 42:19
  Ingrid Faro: They've got different videos of me speaking on various topics as well.
• 42:25
  Ingrid Faro: You can just put in my name Awesome.
• 42:28
  Ellen Krause: Well, we will include all of those links in our show notes for sure.
• 42:32
  Ellen Krause: So people can find them easily and quickly.
• 42:35
  Ellen Krause: Before we go, Ingrid, I have to ask you some of our favorite Bible study tool questions.
• 42:41
  Ellen Krause: I'm sure you have many Bibles, but what Bible is your go-to Bible and what translation is?
• 42:48
  Ingrid Faro: it.
• 42:48
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, you know it was funny.
• 42:50
  Ingrid Faro: I listened to your interview with Sandra Richter.
• 42:53
  Ingrid Faro: I was like well, that's my answer too, because I love the NIV.
• 42:57
  Ingrid Faro: When I'm speaking I usually use the NIV because it reads more beautifully and so forth.
• 43:02
  Ingrid Faro: But for my personal study I do use the NASB because it is wooden and, as she mentioned, also because I can see the language behind it.
• 43:09
  Ingrid Faro: So I still tend to use that.
• 43:12
  Ingrid Faro: I do like the NRSV, you know, sometimes I'll use that, depending on what I'm writing, and the Lexham English Bible.
• 43:19
  Ingrid Faro: Sometimes I'll use that, depending on what I'm writing, and the Lexham English Bible.
• 43:21
  Ingrid Faro: Sometimes I'll use that.
• 43:22
  Ingrid Faro: So sometimes I'll look, especially if I'm writing or if I'm going to be speaking.
• 43:25
  Ingrid Faro: I'll look at some different versions, but I tend, you know, but my main go-to is still the NIV and the NASB.
• 43:32
  Ingrid Faro: You know, and I keep looking at others and you know there's a lot of great translations out there, but it's yeah that's what I tend to use.
• 43:45
  Ellen Krause: Okay, awesome.
• 43:45
  Ellen Krause: Do you have any favorite journaling supplies or anything you like to use to enhance your Bible?
• 43:48
  Ingrid Faro: study experience.
• 43:48
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah Well, for myself, I use Logos and you can get an intro package in Logos which is, you know, relatively inexpensive but there are so many free.
• 43:57
  Ingrid Faro: So for my students who don't, who aren't going to be studying Greek or Hebrew, or people who just want to have, you know, enhance their tools, there's the Step Bible Bible Hub.
• 44:08
  Ingrid Faro: You can pull up an interlinear and see for each word, what is the Greek and Hebrew word, both in the original language and transliterated, and then that will link you to Strong's and a few other lexicons and so forth.
• 44:20
  Ingrid Faro: So you can do a little bit more in Bible Hub.
• 44:23
  Ingrid Faro: I use Bible Gateway just if I want to look at, check different translations.
• 44:28
  Ingrid Faro: Step Bible what else?
• 44:31
  Ingrid Faro: Those are a few of the ones.
• 44:33
  Ingrid Faro: The Blue Letter Bible also.
• 44:35
  Ingrid Faro: So, again, these are some of the free online resources.
• 44:39
  Ingrid Faro: A great book if you're just studying.
• 44:41
  Ingrid Faro: There are two other resources that I also.
• 44:43
  Ingrid Faro: There's the book how to Read the Bible for All it's Worth.
• 44:47
  Ingrid Faro: That's great.
• 44:49
  Ingrid Faro: You know particular book of the Bible and it gives you a great overview.
• 44:51
  Ingrid Faro: And they also do some word studies and they've got such excellent scholarship.
• 44:55
  Ingrid Faro: They, you know they're, they're it's just solid in the biblical languages and so forth.
• 45:13
  Ingrid Faro: So those are again some of my my favorite resources.
• 45:16
  Ellen Krause: OK, that's so awesome.
• 45:17
  Ellen Krause: My favorite resources Okay, that's so awesome.
• 45:22
  Ellen Krause: Well, ingrid, thank you so much for being here and just being willing to share your insights.
• 45:26
  Ellen Krause: Your exploration into this difficult topic has really given us a lot to think about, and it's just so encouraging to each and every one of us.
• 45:35
  Ellen Krause: It gives us hope in the face of evil.
• 45:37
  Ingrid Faro: Yeah, thank you, thanks.
• 45:39
  Ingrid Faro: So good to thank you for letting me share Absolutely.
• 45:44
  Ellen Krause: And for our listeners.
• 45:45
  Ellen Krause: I just want to encourage you to pick up a copy of Ingrid's book Demystifying Evil.
• 45:51
  Ellen Krause: Her book goes into an even much deeper understanding of the presence of evil and how we can respond with faith.
• 46:00
  Ellen Krause: I will make sure we have that linked in the show notes.
• 46:03
  Ellen Krause: We love you all.
• 46:04
  Ellen Krause: We appreciate you listening.
• 46:06
  Ellen Krause: Have a blessed day.