Latest / Authentic Living / Learning How to Captivate and Influence with Communication Expert, Ron Tsang

Transcript

Learning How to Captivate and Influence with Communication Expert, Ron Tsang · Authentic Living

0:01
Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we conscious conversations about
0:08
things that really matter in our lives.
0:12
And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
0:36
Hi, everyone.
0:36
It's Roxanne Derhodge of Authentic Living with Roxanne.
0:39
How are you today?
0:41
Today, I have a special colleague Ron Seng on my podcast.
0:45
Hi, Ron.
0:46
How are you?
0:47
I'm great, Roxanne.
0:47
How are you?
0:48
Good.
0:48
Thank you.
0:49
So Ron, is I'm a member of, Canadian Association of Professional Speakers, and Ron
0:57
is our president of the Toronto chapter.
1:01
So Ron, has a unique background, and he he's a specialist in communication, and I'm gonna just
1:06
tell you a little bit about his background.
1:09
So he has written a book and it's called from presentation to standing Ovation, 15 actionable
1:16
steps to achieve massive in So how do we influence others?
1:21
He helps executives, employees, and entrepreneurs, present even better than Steve
1:25
Jobs.
1:26
Wow.
1:27
Amazing.
1:29
Some of Ron's clients are Global Fortune 500 Banks, insurance companies, tech Companies,
1:34
associations, and nonprofit and like I said, he's the co founder of share, love, and
1:41
celebrates, which I'd love to hear more about, which is an annual annual charity fundraiser,
1:46
and the Toronto Entrepreneurs of passion and purpose awards, which I don't know much about
1:52
Ron, which I'd love to hear more So, Ron, thanks for coming on the show.
1:56
Well, thanks so much for having me, Roxanne.
1:58
So, Ron, I'm gonna say focusing on an area that I think all of us want to get better at,
2:06
including myself, which is to be able to captivate or hold the attention of people when
2:13
I'm communicating in whatever element that I I I was speaking, what I'm speak or whether I'm
2:19
meeting a a someone for business or those types of things.
2:22
So how did you how did you kinda get into this whole field of communication?
2:29
Well, there's kind of a philosophical answer and there's sort of a a timeline practical
2:34
answer.
2:34
And I would say that from a timeline perspective, a chronological perspective, I
2:39
wasn't always a good speaker.
2:40
So even though I'm a professional speaker now, I'm a speaker who speaks on speaking and I help
2:44
leaders speak better and present better.
2:47
I wasn't a great speaker to begin with.
2:50
I'm not a natural born speaker.
2:51
Many people aren't But I became a serious student of speaking when I realized that it was
2:57
something that was holding me back.
2:59
When I was in high school, for example, I was very shy, and I start my voice started to get
3:06
deeper.
3:07
And I started I'm I mumbled quite a bit.
3:09
And I'm an only child who at home, my my my parents kept asking me to repeat myself and
3:14
repeat myself or repeat myself.
3:15
They they didn't understand what I was saying.
3:17
They kept asking me to repeat myself over and over again.
3:19
And that that sense of frustration really, really stuck with me and led me to want to
3:22
become a serious student of speaking.
3:24
And that's sort of how I Sure.
3:27
That that that that's something that, that stayed with me and sort of led me to, one of
3:31
the was one of the way points.
3:33
One of the reasons why I decided to be focused on communication because I wasn't always a good
3:38
communicator.
3:38
And it helps me be more empathetic to people who want to get better as well.
3:44
And philosophically, a speaker saved my life when I was when I was very young.
3:50
I was, about a year and a half My parents discovered that I had a high grade, continuous
3:55
fever, and no other symptoms except for swollen lymph glass.
4:00
At at the best hospital in the city, the the doctor thought that it was meningitis.
4:04
So they gave me in antibiotics in an IV tube.
4:10
They gave me a chest x-ray, and they even did a spinal function.
4:13
But the tests were inconclusive.
4:15
The antibiotics were ineffective, and the doctors didn't know what to do.
4:20
After 2 weeks of this high grade fever with no other symptoms, the doctors noticed that my
4:27
hands and feet started to the skin in my hands and feet started to peel off like a glove, and
4:32
they noticed that the skin in my tongue and lips turned as red as a strawberry.
4:38
Wow.
4:38
And and that's why after 2 weeks, when these new symptoms emerge, that, the doctor realized
4:42
that, he he recognized these symptoms cause he just come back from a medical conference where
4:47
he heard a speaker, share information about a rare new pediatric disease called Kawasaki
4:53
disease.
4:55
And the doctor said to my parents, okay.
4:56
Well, Kawasaki is causes heart attacks in in little children.
5:01
Your boy could die from a heart attack.
5:03
Wow.
5:03
But we we think we can save them.
5:07
And what I what I really believe is that if that doctor, that medical conference, that
5:12
speaker was too shy, not afraid to he he was that person was too afraid to speak or not able
5:17
to articulate themselves clearly, or they weren't able to convince the audience that this
5:23
is something worth paying attention to, and that this is something that could be addressed.
5:30
Solved.
5:30
I wouldn't be here.
5:32
Wow.
5:33
That's that's a powerful story.
5:36
Yeah.
5:36
Thanks, Roxanne.
5:37
I I I'm I'm the 1st survivor of Kawasaki disease in Canada.
5:41
If it was for that that doctor, it wasn't for that speaker, I wouldn't be here.
5:45
There's no there's no way I'd be here.
5:46
The doctors that that were treating me had no idea what was going on.
5:50
So that's why.
5:52
It's not interesting, though.
5:53
Right?
5:53
Because a lot of times, a lot of for instance, physicians.
5:57
I don't know about you, but I I know a lot of times the doctors that I've had over my life,
6:01
they're not very good at articulating a lot of things.
6:04
Right?
6:04
Like, they're not they that would they would that would be a skill that I would think that
6:09
physician would have had to develop in order to go to that platform.
6:15
Mhmm.
6:15
Mhmm.
6:15
I agree.
6:16
But what I what I appreciate about the medical community is that they don't hold information
6:20
back.
6:21
They they share it with others in in many organizations that you and I may have
6:25
experienced or worked with before.
6:27
People tend to hold information to themselves.
6:30
But in order for science and medicine to advance, they have to continually communicate
6:35
either in writing or in speaking with spoken word, like, conferences and and events.
6:41
And that's why it's it's so important because you never know who's listening to you, and you
6:46
never know what the ripple effect is of your message, your voice, your ideas, So that's why
6:51
it's so critical that we communicate.
6:53
Do we do we remember that our our voice is more important than we know.
6:58
I, you know, if, you know, one thing I I speculate on just in his listening to you, you
7:02
know, I think that, myself growing up, I love to speak, but I was always shy.
7:10
Right?
7:11
And I wonder with with us being around our colleagues that a lot of us are professional
7:15
speakers, how many people were actually like us growing up and, you know, ended up going and
7:22
perfecting their craft.
7:23
And then I've seen, you know, phenomenal speakers around us.
7:28
Like, we are surrounded, and I feel blessed to be involved with us, you know, at caps because
7:34
I'm oftentimes blown away by people that they get up there and you're so captivated by their
7:42
stories, and it makes wonder, that would be something that we could talk about.
7:45
I would ask people about in the future is how many people were actually kind of shy growing
7:49
up and and learning to speak?
7:51
Because it would be interesting to hear that story.
7:54
That'd be a great question to ask.
7:55
I'm sure that the fascinating stories we hear about people's journeys Many professional
8:00
speakers that I do know, they're they are shy or they are introverts.
8:03
And just because they get up on stage and they get paid to speak to audiences of many sizes.
8:09
They don't necessarily seek the spotlight, except for either to share a message because
8:14
it's in line with their what they believe their purpose is or because they're they're doing it
8:18
to make money.
8:19
It's a business.
8:20
For sure.
8:21
So the part of the voice, like we know, is so very important, right?
8:26
Like, you know, even when, you know, raising children, I was an eighteen year old son, you
8:30
know, I really he's very I I would say I'm more extraverted is a bit more introverted, and he
8:36
and he would say, hey, mommy, I'm not like you, but I often, you know, think about kind of in
8:41
micro, even as a psychotherapist or even as a consultant, how important it is to learn to
8:47
speak effectively?
8:49
And you use the word influential.
8:51
So I want to just chat about that concept of influence in reference to communication and
8:56
what kind of things people listening to us, whether it's talking to your child, trying to
9:02
get them to brush your teeth, or, you know, you're talking to a EO that's about to, you
9:07
know, deliver some really bad news.
9:09
What are some of the core elements that you think that you could share with us around the
9:14
concept of influence?
9:16
Well, I think it's important to understand that communication and influence is not about
9:22
reading minds.
9:22
I think one of the biggest mistake that people make when it comes to communication,
9:26
influential communication.
9:27
I'm assuming that just because you say something or write something, your audience
9:30
will understand.
9:31
They'll comply.
9:32
They will act And that's simply not the case.
9:34
We we need a sender and a receiver in this communication model.
9:37
We have to get ideas from our mind, transferred, transmitted, and interpreted into
9:41
the minds of other people.
9:43
We have to that means we have to really understand our audience, understand how we come
9:46
across, understand how receptive they are, understand the best channels to to communicate
9:51
in, and understand how we can make sure that we can achieve shared meaning and shared
9:57
understanding.
9:58
And with when it comes to influence, We need to have a clear goal in mind.
10:02
What's our purpose or what's your target outcome?
10:05
What's what's the business objective?
10:07
And we have to understand what our audience is looking whether we're communicating with one
10:10
person or with a thousand people, what are they looking for?
10:13
What are their needs?
10:15
What problems do they have?
10:16
Or what opportunities might exist in their minds?
10:19
So understanding that along with our own objectives can help us create a GPS to go from
10:25
where we are to where we want to go or where our audience is and where they want to go.
10:30
And it helps to not only understand our audience and understand where we want to go and
10:35
understand their problems with empathy.
10:37
It also helps to to tap into what Aristotle referred to as 3 of the basic elements of
10:43
persuasion, credibility, logic, and emotion.
10:46
So once we understand our audience and understand have empathy for themselves and
10:51
understand our own objectives, then we can start to think about what we want our audience
10:54
to think or to feel or how we want them to act, what we want them to do, and then structuring
11:00
our messages in a way that will be received well by our audiences.
11:04
So that they we we form a connection with them initially.
11:07
They get it.
11:07
We we hook their attention.
11:09
Perhaps we build their interest.
11:10
We share what's in it for them so that they can can see why they would want to do something and
11:16
then make it easy for them to do that.
11:19
So I'm gonna I'm gonna ask a basic question because a lot of times when, if you haven't
11:25
studied communication, And, you know, you being, a business communication expert, and I'm
11:30
a psychotherapist, right, and and that has been in consulting.
11:34
The average person doesn't know a lot of the things that we're talking about.
11:39
Right?
11:40
They're like, you know, if I'm a manager and I have to deliver a message, oftentimes it's very
11:46
in the past, I should say.
11:47
I think we've we're coming along in in corporations today, but it's generally I have a
11:51
a message to deliver I need to share it to the front line.
11:54
I'm gonna tell you kind of what's expected of you, but what you're talking about here is a
11:59
very didactic kind of interface.
12:03
So for the average person kind of communicating, say, for the first time in that
12:08
role, That's a skill that I would say is kinda high level at first.
12:14
So how do we kinda stay away from kinda talking to people all versus kind of receiving as much
12:21
as as as, communicating with someone.
12:23
Well, I think the house has asked questions.
12:26
That to sort of have an understanding of I of of what the where they are and and where they
12:31
want to go.
12:32
And or or what their level of understanding is of of the situation or potentially posing a a
12:38
situation, some background, some context, and then getting their thoughts, their feedback if
12:42
they if they wanna collaborate.
12:44
So understanding our own leadership style and the and the communication style or the
12:49
behavioral tendencies of the people that we want to influence, we wanna communicate with
12:53
really helps as well.
12:54
So certainly, it it makes sense to structure a business message certain way.
12:58
But it it also makes sense to to discover how to collaborate with them as well.
13:03
I think it depends on the situation.
13:05
These tools are appropriate for different situations for different mediums different
13:08
people as well.
13:09
I mean, we are who we are, and it really helps understand our own communication strengths and
13:14
weaknesses, our own styles as well.
13:17
For sure, because if, you know, if you're kind of, the type that maybe, is pretty direct, it'd
13:25
be easy to share certain messages, but then sometimes you might miss certain implicit
13:30
things that maybe potentially is happening in your body.
13:32
Like, let's say you know, I'm I'm saying I'm so happy to see you're on, but I'm kinda like,
13:37
you're closed off or I'm like, oh, nice to see you're on, but I'm averting my eye.
13:43
Those types of things.
13:44
It's it's kinda like you're gonna say, okay, Roxanne.
13:46
You're not really into seeing me today.
13:48
Are you?
13:49
But it's about getting comfortable to just not with spoken word, what's actually coming out of
13:54
the person's mouth, but to really kind of be, able to recognize, like, you know, like you
13:59
said, like a roll of an eye, or a diverted look where I'm, yeah, I'm looking away as you're in
14:05
the middle of a sentence, those types of things.
14:07
Do you find that, when you teaching your courses, what's the hardest part to teach?
14:12
Is it nonverbal communication?
14:14
Do you find that the most difficult or verbal communication, or is it like combination of
14:19
things that's, difficult to teach?
14:23
I I often speak about 3 ms in successful communication, mindset, motivation, and
14:30
mechanics.
14:31
So we're looking at the if we're looking at the nonverbal communication, how people sound, how
14:36
they come across with their with their hands and feet, or with their expressions.
14:40
That's often the non verbal communication.
14:41
Those are mechanics.
14:43
Or how to structure a message so that it's understood or that people take action on on it.
14:48
That's also mechanics, but in terms of how people feel about themselves or about public
14:54
speaking or about winning over an audience.
14:57
That's mindset.
14:58
And whether or not people want to do it, if there's a compelling reason for them to do it,
15:02
that's motivation.
15:03
And I often share that if I can teach you the mechanics, but you don't have the mindset or
15:08
the motivation that we can only get so far.
15:10
But combined together, all three m's will really accelerate your success.
15:16
So in terms of commonalities, what I find is some people are missing some of the m's.
15:21
Some people don't have the mindset.
15:22
For whatever reason, they've got limiting beliefs and that holds them back.
15:25
Some people have, you don't have a motivation.
15:30
They don't have a a real clear reason to improve what they're doing.
15:34
And it could be that they're comfortable in their jobs.
15:36
They're comfortable in their roles.
15:37
They're not challenge.
15:38
So they don't need to get any better.
15:40
Mhmm.
15:40
And for the mechanics, some people just they're they're not aware.
15:43
So many executives have had some kind of public speaking or presentation skills coaching
15:50
involving video sessions, involving feedback, or an executive coach.
15:55
And so they they improve, but most employees don't get tapped on the shoulder for those
15:59
opportunities.
16:00
And unless they get some employees get stuck, They can't get a promotion.
16:05
They can't I I don't know.
16:07
They're they're not able to not they're not put in front of cross functional teams because
16:10
they're very, very technical, for example.
16:12
Then they real they may realize that what's holding them back is their communication
16:16
skills.
16:17
So they actively seek out to improve the mechanics.
16:19
It could be how they come across their body language.
16:21
Maybe they come across being defensive.
16:23
They at at a business meetings, they're they're not actively engaged.
16:27
They're crossing their arms, they're rolling their eyes.
16:30
They don't realize it holds them back.
16:33
So that's that could be the mechanics, the nonverbal communication, for for mindset as
16:39
well.
16:40
Some people think that they are already really good.
16:42
I remember going to a session for with large financial institution.
16:47
And I do pre event surveys.
16:49
And I kinda have an idea where people are based on the survey.
16:52
And one person basically gave himself 10 out of 10 or 9 out of 10.
16:55
So I'm wondering, why is he here?
16:57
Is he a prisoner?
16:58
He's being forced to attend the session?
17:00
Okay.
17:00
That'll be interesting.
17:01
And I noticed he didn't take any notes at all during the sessions, whereas everyone else
17:04
actively going through the workbook and taking the time to answer questions, and he really
17:10
didn't improve at all because he didn't see a need to improve.
17:13
So sometimes everybody's a little bit different, and I think it's important to
17:17
recognize that, but, you know, it's it's helpful to have an open mind to be mindful of
17:21
our own strengths the weaknesses, how we naturally come across, and then what our
17:26
mindset and motivation, and then what mechanics we need to improve it would be.
17:31
So now I know that that's so important because you're right.
17:34
Because if you're if if I'm working for you and I have to be at the training, that in a way, I
17:38
kind of feel like I'm mandated to be there.
17:40
So my motivation may not be in sync with what potentially the company is wanting.
17:44
And I go in, and I'm just gonna I'm just gonna kinda tick the box and and, you know, say that
17:49
I was at the training versus if I really, really want to improve or that I know that
17:54
potentially I'm not able to with my team or I'd went up for that promotion twice and, you know,
18:00
twice.
18:01
I missed it by, you know, maybe a mark or 2, but it's not specific.
18:06
So I could see how that could be either one of those three things.
18:11
So with the with someone that's maybe listening and they're trying to gauge their
18:16
communication, how could they kinda I'm gonna use a self diagnose their capacity to
18:23
communicate.
18:23
What what are there some steps that you can share with us that would help them kind of
18:28
think about where they are in around those three areas?
18:33
Well, I think it helps to get feedback from your boss or from your colleagues, for example,
18:38
if you have a performance review, it's it's worth asking, is this an area of growth?
18:43
How would you rate me?
18:44
How would you rate my ability to connect and engage to to convince how you rate my and my
18:51
friendly, how's my demeanor?
18:53
Mhmm.
18:53
And and solicit either numbers or qualitative feedback back, and that can help because
18:58
sometimes we have blind spots.
18:59
We just don't know.
19:00
We just don't know.
19:01
And by sort of increasing our awareness of these blind spots, we can increase our
19:07
unawareness as well.
19:09
So feedback, right, because, like, you're right.
19:11
Maybe when I'm stressed, I'm I'm less I'm I'm less open or maybe I'm closed off.
19:17
So getting that feedback, if I'm on your team, to get that constructive, criticism is a good
19:23
thing because that gives me an element to open up, well, I can get better in this area because
19:27
maybe every quarter, if I'm in the financial sector and it's crunch time, I kind of seal off
19:33
and maybe I don't I'm not as open with people and then I've got perceived as aloof or,
19:39
unreachable.
19:40
That kind of feedback is really, really good for me because then I I could be aware that I
19:44
need to check-in with myself when I'm kind of communicating with my team and whether there's
19:48
deadlines or those types of things.
19:50
So just asking people around you.
19:52
And I'm sure even, asking people at home, right, it's we're talking about the workplace,
19:57
but who to who to know you better it, you know, other than your your partner, your children, or
20:03
your friends, or even family around you, because they'd be able to give you the straight
20:07
up goods, I would say, about what you do well and maybe areas that you can improve on.
20:13
Absolutely.
20:14
Absolutely.
20:14
The challenge I find is that some managers or leaders who who manage direct reports may have
20:21
they may feel uncomfortable in providing that feedback to someone else, either because They
20:27
themselves don't know how to provide the the the quantitative and qualitative feedback to
20:31
help that direct report grow or just because they don't feel comfortable providing
20:35
constructive feedback.
20:36
And that can be a challenge then because how can someone grow if they're not getting that
20:40
feedback?
20:41
Mhmm.
20:41
Mhmm.
20:42
So it really helps to have open conversations with with your your your seniors or with your
20:48
direct reports, and it it's it's helpful for people at all.
20:50
What levels the organization have that open mindedness about improving their communication
20:56
skills and how how they come across perhaps a a 360 evaluation could really open people's eyes.
21:03
I often say, you know, if I'm in if if there's an area of of, that I need to improve on, like
21:08
you said, quality and quantity.
21:10
Right?
21:11
So you're not just looking at, oh, Roxanne seems to be a nice person, which is great.
21:15
Maybe I score really, really good there.
21:17
But when you kind of look at my mechanics, I I may be kind of lacking in certain areas.
21:22
So I think I like the fact that you say both quantitative and qualitative.
21:25
If that sounds something that for myself, I think learning to communicate better would be
21:30
something that I can actually work on.
21:34
We all we all have our natural strengths.
21:35
And if you come across, I mean, if if you're a nice person, if you're an authentic person, if
21:39
you live authentically,
21:42
then that's a great foundation.
21:44
Yeah.
21:44
Which I would hope I do.
21:47
I think I'm on the right podcast, living authentically with Roxanne Deraj.
21:50
I'm gonna I I know you do, intercultural or cross cultural communication, and I wanna chat
21:55
a little bit about that.
21:57
And kind of, obviously, you know, you're in you're in Toronto.
22:01
I'm in Niagara, but most companies today, I would say with globalization, have.
22:07
We have remote teams.
22:08
We have different cultures.
22:10
We have different time zones.
22:12
You know, I I when I work in my consulting firm on my assistant was in Toronto.
22:17
So talk about I felt kind of, it was like a new role for me because I was like, oh, I could see
22:24
you face to face.
22:25
There was an element that I thought I was a better communicator in in person.
22:31
And then I had to learn how to, actually, manage, my portfolio with having her remote.
22:37
I was not very good at it, Ron.
22:39
Because it it was difficult for me.
22:41
I needed to correct create structure and things like that that I I already felt a bit inept,
22:46
and I I stumbled at the beginning.
22:48
How did you overcome that?
22:49
Was it was the challenge in knowing when to communicate with some you'll be your assistant,
22:54
who wasn't there face to face, or was it something else?
22:57
I think you'd I think knowing my personality, I'm a big picture kind of person.
23:00
So I was, you know, an executive on, with companies, and I would deal with strategy.
23:06
So and she was microscopic.
23:09
So she would tether me, and I would have to kinda go out and talk to, you know, about
23:13
training analysis on wellness, you know, talk about, the recommendations.
23:18
Let's say we found it was work life balance around, that we needed to create a strategy say
23:24
in banking, for instance, or whatever.
23:26
So we had to work collegially, but I think sometimes what I had to hear, really, was that
23:31
I was not a good communicator in reference to the microscopic things that needed to get done
23:37
because I was off and running to the next meeting.
23:41
So we really had to create, structure.
23:44
We saw we created, a kind of a system which helped me, really, beginning of the week, we
23:50
sat and we did about an hour a half long meeting because I managed about 40 accounts.
23:56
Sometimes some as big as a 100,000 lives, across, you know, east of West Coast.
24:02
And what happened is it really showed me gave me an appreciation for how I used to, make it
24:09
stressful for her.
24:11
Cause I would go out to these business meetings and I kept throwing things and then we wouldn't
24:15
get back to it, and we wouldn't talk about what was done.
24:18
And then I would be off to another meeting.
24:19
So creating the structure, I think she was less, irritated by my my my, communication
24:26
style because really it wasn't that, and then we were busy all the time, and we weren't
24:31
physically there.
24:33
So I think once we started to talk about what was going well, which there was a lot that was
24:37
going well, what was not going well, and the need for structure, what what I said to her is
24:42
let's implement the things that would help you get what you need from me more.
24:47
And then I talked about what I needed from her in order to shine, you know, when I went out to
24:52
those meetings.
24:53
So there was a fair amount of growing pains when I think it took a good I would say for us
24:59
to feel like we were in rhythm, probably a good 3 to 4 months of us talking about things and
25:05
missing deadlines sometimes, those types of things, which, you know, would and that at
25:11
times, you know, ended up being in some service issues as we were still trying to figure things
25:16
out.
25:17
And that's hard when you're when you're changing environments or structure of how you
25:22
report.
25:22
I found that difficult.
25:23
And it was something that I really, really learned a lot about myself in reference to the
25:28
kind of communicative that that I was.
25:30
Well, it's a it sounds like a great learning experience And it it's something that I think a
25:33
lot of people go through because people are not mind readers.
25:36
Whether you're working with one person in your team or you're working with multiple people,
25:40
having to communicate ideas, having to make sure that your ideas are not misinterpreted,
25:45
that there's no misunderstandings.
25:46
That's so it can be so difficult.
25:48
Because we all have our own ideas in our heads.
25:51
And it it's so difficult to make sure that we we express that appropriately in in especially
25:57
when we're working remotely.
25:58
So in terms of communicating remotely, I find that it does help to have, some some sort of
26:04
standardization in terms of a set frequency of meetings, and then objectives of those of those
26:10
virtual meetings and then having some KPIs knowing what your objectives are, that really
26:15
helps.
26:16
Setting the tempo for the meetings, how often do you meet, what's gonna be discussed there,
26:19
and then what the objectives will be and then having some debriefing afterwards.
26:23
Did you achieve what you set out to achieve and then doing it again.
26:28
Are we are we gonna are we gonna make sure that we achieve what we achieved or we wanna achieve
26:32
and and so on and so forth?
26:34
What can we do to make sure we keep doing the right things?
26:37
And move away from the things that we don't want to do.
26:40
You know, what I found the most difficult, Ron, is that when I was in the same building, I
26:46
could read the nuances of what was happening with the person physically.
26:50
And what I so I was one of the first account executives to go virtual.
26:55
And I remember there was a part of me that went to Toronto.
26:57
So we we were in New Yorkville.
26:59
I would go so I was virtual.
27:01
So this is me because I'm a connector.
27:04
I would go to Toronto.
27:05
And there would be, you know, I remember having this vivid memory of going into the boardroom
27:11
and there was nobody there.
27:13
And I went, alright.
27:15
You know, there was one moderator, and then we was an east to west coast meeting.
27:20
And then, you know, this the directive of the company was, well, you don't physically need it
27:24
to be there, but there was this need within me to okay.
27:27
I'm gonna be there, and they said, okay, Roxanne.
27:29
Well, you don't need to be here.
27:30
I'm like, really?
27:31
You can go back to your desk.
27:33
So it was kinda like I was you know, old school in that way, and I needed to get accustomed
27:37
because I was talking accustomed to getting connected in person.
27:40
Mhmm.
27:41
Mhmm.
27:41
Virtually, what are some of the things that key the tips that you would give to someone that's
27:47
running a remote team in reference to communication.
27:50
I think it does help up a video conference.
27:52
So right now, we've got a video conference.
27:54
I know you've got the audio recording, but I can see you nodding.
27:56
I can see you smiling, and I can see when you're thinking.
27:59
So that really helps me and give me a time to pause, and I can I can see when you're really
28:03
coming up with something juicy or when I say something that you're reacting to?
28:06
I that that really helps to to engage and to connect as well.
28:10
So I think that it makes sense to think about the the richness of the communication channel.
28:15
Sometimes we can't communicate face to face, but the next thing may be communicating on
28:20
video.
28:21
So we can hear this on the town, this the tone of our voice.
28:23
I was mixing up the word tone and sound.
28:25
I'm not always a good communicator.
28:28
So that the tone of our voice as well as the the our our our expressions and whether we use
28:33
hand gestures to really emphasize something.
28:33
Are we happy, or are we disgruntled?
28:40
That that really makes a difference.
28:41
So the richness of our communication channel can help.
28:44
Sending emails, for example, can really hinder conversation.
28:47
If your assistant was sending you messages and they were really, really detailed.
28:50
And you wanted to know what was the bigger picture, and she was literally excited that,
28:54
you're going back and forth by email, that's not really helping because you're not achieving
28:59
the goal of effective communication of achieving shared meaning and shared
29:02
understanding.
29:03
So I remember doing a a keynote and then a follow-up coaching session with a with a client
29:08
in Montreal, large engineering firm.
29:11
And they said, that they weren't, they were used to just sending emails to and internally
29:17
with clients is you just pick up the phone.
29:19
If you're in that situation where there's a a wall.
29:22
There's clearly a barrier to communication.
29:25
There's a misunderstanding, miscommunication.
29:26
Just pick up the phone.
29:27
You'll you'll save yourself the headache and you can reduce the amount of friction that
29:32
happens as well because then you can hear each other's tones of voices, and you can also
29:36
respond each other.
29:38
You can ask questions from each other.
29:39
You can really handle those issues immediately that may take multiple emails to resolve
29:46
otherwise.
29:47
You know, when you're when you're dealing with sensitive issues, potentially emotionally
29:51
loaded issues, emails are not the way to go to to communicate.
29:54
So video conferencing, phone conversations, definitely definitely a better way.
30:00
When you communicate in my email, it's better to stick to announcements or sort of
30:04
clarifications, sticking to the for example, because you're not dealing with emotional or
30:08
sensitive issues.
30:10
And you can't re and you can't read the emotion in in between the lines.
30:14
No.
30:14
Not at all.
30:15
Not at all.
30:16
So that's where a phone call can help.
30:17
It can help avoid misunderstandings and miscommunication and setting regular times
30:22
having a regular tempo for video conferencing with specific goals, KPIs, and then reviewing
30:26
your objectives, that can really help you achieve your, you know, alignment with your
30:30
goals.
30:31
Absolutely.
30:32
And I think it's you're right.
30:33
Structure is important.
30:35
Nuance, like, you, like, like you said, seeing you.
30:38
I've I mean, I'm always around you every month, so I know you, but to see you and see your
30:43
reaction and and how you're responding I I can tell.
30:46
Okay.
30:46
I'm, you know, I'm I'm on the mark.
30:47
I'm not on the mark.
30:49
He's being funny.
30:50
He's not being funny, and I can read you.
30:52
But if I'm not seeing you on an ongoing basis, you know, I would feel like, okay.
30:56
Well, I'm I'm hearing his his voice.
30:59
Maybe I don't know him as well.
31:01
But seeing that person, I I know for me, how me, kinda really get a sense of where that
31:06
person's at.
31:07
So that's definitely something that I would think that, in companies, are you doing a lot
31:12
more communication, because of the digital era with virtual teams?
31:18
I'm I'm doing more, intercultural communication these days than
31:21
Okay.
31:22
Than than communicating using different technologies.
31:24
Oh, there there is a piece of that as well, especially again, with with virtual
31:28
conferencing with the videos as well as communicating by email.
31:32
But I find that the intercultural communication, people working in in diverse
31:36
teams, Deborah's backgrounds, diverse ethnic backgrounds, for example, diverse abilities
31:41
that these are interesting elements right now in in in many organizations, small and large.
31:46
So tell me more about that.
31:47
Like, what are some of the concerns?
31:50
The major concerns that come up in companies that you might go in to help with
31:54
communication?
31:56
Well, it could be that a a team member or a group of people in the team are of different
32:01
backgrounds, and they don't say speak a a common language, or they have challenges in
32:07
fitting in.
32:08
For example, one of my students, his wife works in a a large accounting firm in Toronto, came
32:13
from Brazil.
32:14
And apparently in Brazil, they're used to communicating a certain way.
32:19
And and continue to communicate in this way, this this employee felt like my student's wife
32:26
felt like she wasn't seen by her boss.
32:29
She wasn't fitting in with her colleagues, and she just didn't feel like she really belonged.
32:34
And then once my student showed her my lessons on direct versus indirect communication,
32:39
understanding the cultural differences, she made the the mindset shift and then she started
32:45
applying some of those mechanics.
32:46
Like, she had the motivation to succeed at work, but some of the mechanics involved
32:50
learning how to be more direct in in in the business world.
32:53
Previously, based on our cultural upbringing, it was the norm to sort of hint at things.
32:59
Instead of coming around and asking for something or making a statement, it was more
33:03
about providing some background, some context, and then maybe dropping some hints or then
33:08
saying something after this buffer.
33:10
And, unfortunately, with many employers, time is money, And it's kind of this Jerry McGuire
33:17
situation.
33:18
Show me the money.
33:20
Show me the money.
33:21
Time is money.
33:22
And so it's important to recognize who we're communicating with.
33:24
And if if if our boss or our boss's boss or type a type personalities and they really value
33:30
time and they really focus on productivity and really improving revenue or decreasing cost,
33:34
then we have to make sure we communicate in that way as opposed to a long preamble and
33:39
letting them, you know, try to figure out and decipher what we're trying to just don't have
33:43
the time for that.
33:44
They know the patients.
33:45
So it's really important to understand how to communicate in this particular culture.
33:49
And if people are working in a multinational company as well, then I think we have
33:53
understand the the Western culture.
33:55
That's the the norm.
33:57
So these are some of the things I talk about to help companies be more productive and to help
34:01
them re remove some of the friction when dealing with teams just simply with different
34:06
cultural uppers, different expectations.
34:09
So I would think that the, the skill set of the manager that say has a say has a multinational
34:14
team.
34:15
Let's say somebody's in Brazil and somebody's in Trinidad and somebody's in India, whatever.
34:21
And they're that manager already has to be quite with understanding all the cultures,
34:26
first of all, and the nuances within each culture, and they have to be the hub to be able
34:33
to kind of, move them around effectively.
34:36
Let's say it's implementing an IT program, you know, across the business, So that that
34:43
manager's skills, I would think, would have to be pretty, high level so that they can kind of,
34:52
make everybody feel connected, understand kind of like you said, what what, you know, what
34:57
what are the KPIs if if if, let's say, you know, I'm more indirect helping me or assisting
35:04
me to become more direct, if somebody's too direct, so they don't seem like they're a
35:09
bulldozer to have them kind of, you know, lay back a bit more, those types of things.
35:14
So that's a lot of moving parts.
35:17
You're right, Roxanne.
35:17
Helping coach employees is is a is a big challenge for modern organizations, I think,
35:23
especially because of the diverse skill sets and also recognizing that companies don't have
35:27
to be melt melting pots the way that they used to be.
35:30
It's certainly a a a new challenge, but it's also a new opportunity.
35:33
And that's why soft skills are so important now in leadership and more so than ever before.
35:38
It's not just about meeting goals and and achieving KPIs and whatnot.
35:43
But it's also about coaching employees, empowering employees, and, making sure that,
35:49
there's more collaboration in that culture.
35:52
So I think that's important.
35:53
And I think that, it's also an opportunity for the employees to learn how to lead themselves.
35:58
So as I mentioned before, not all managers have those skills.
36:02
As as you pointed out.
36:04
And the opportunity then is for the employee to learn how to manage their their manager, how to
36:08
communicate upwards.
36:10
If they recognize that that's the opportunity, they they need to have that awareness, first of
36:14
all, that some friction exists, and then recognizing potential tools that can help them
36:18
address that problem.
36:20
As as my student's wife discovered at this accounting firm in Toronto in order to get
36:24
along better with her boss, with her colleagues, she had to adjust her communication
36:27
style.
36:28
But at first, she had to recognize that a problem existed.
36:32
Mhmm.
36:32
And that it was within her control to affect how she got along.
36:35
And once she became more direct in her communication when appropriate, then she found
36:40
that balance and she she fit in just fine.
36:43
Her her boss recognized her, her employees, her colleagues, really paid her more respect.
36:48
They really understood her.
36:49
She fit in a lot better.
36:51
So that's an interesting thing that I often think about.
36:53
We talk communication down, but we don't often talk about what do I need to do to be able to
36:59
communicate up.
37:00
And I think that's a fascinating concept, right, because if you might if you're my,
37:05
direct, if if I'm your direct reports and I'm not getting my needs met, let's say, based on
37:12
our styles or whatever, I have to be able to be, quote me, I'm gonna say brave enough if
37:17
I've had cultural, impediment to be able to come to you without feeling like I'm being
37:23
disrespectful or, those types of things.
37:26
And I know a lot of cultures that's that's a difference compared to North America.
37:30
Like, I'm Trinidadian, and I would say that a lot of, you know, in Trinidadian culture, it's
37:35
very indirect.
37:36
And and at times, I would even say it, and I'm sure I'm gonna get flagged for this, at times
37:40
passive aggressive, potentially, right, where they might talk about something, but they're
37:45
not really talking about thing, and you're supposed to, you know, intuit that that's what
37:50
they're saying.
37:51
And then you come to North America, and I moved here when I was sixteen, And then everybody was
37:56
just so direct.
37:57
You know?
37:57
And I was like, woah.
37:59
That's that's different because at times at home, it would might be considered a bit rude
38:04
to
38:04
be that direct.
38:05
Right?
38:05
So it's kinda learning that skill.
38:07
And then it took years years to realize that it's ready, in fact, not rude, but it's just
38:14
about telling the person what what's happening for you and helping them understand you, and to
38:19
be able to kind of facilitate, understanding back and forth.
38:22
But that's a that was a tough thing.
38:24
I came as a teenager, obviously, which was a different stage and age, but it was something
38:28
that I had to learn to get more comfortable with.
38:31
Yeah.
38:32
And and and it's it's good that you recognized it quickly and that you are able to adjust over
38:36
time because if you're a very indirect and in in a direct world, then it can be really
38:42
difficult to fit in.
38:43
It can be really difficult to be understood, and it can be really difficult to get things
38:46
done.
38:47
And as you mentioned, people may take offense, and maybe you may take offense as well.
38:51
So things don't have to be that way.
38:53
Right.
38:53
For sure.
38:54
So with with globalization, at what what are some of the things that maybe companies should
39:01
be thinking about in reference to Cross Cultural's, communication.
39:05
What are some kind of big concepts that companies should be kind of keeping in mind, as
39:11
they kind of create maybe, the infrastructure as they expand into different parts of the
39:15
world.
39:16
I think it'd be helpful to think about the identity of the employees as being individuals.
39:23
So that people don't think about certain groups, ethnic groups, people for certain
39:28
backgrounds as all being certain stereotypes.
39:31
Right.
39:31
It it helps have an open mind and recognize that.
39:34
Excuse me.
39:35
Sorry.
39:35
It helps to have an open mind and to recognize that our identity is based not just on our
39:40
appearance, but also on our skill set, our unique experiences, the people that we know,
39:46
the people we've met, the books that we've read, the place that we've gone, and so on and
39:49
so forth.
39:50
But many of us are often thinking in terms of, we we often see in terms of skin tone or hair
39:56
color or or gender, for example.
39:58
And then we automatically make some shortcuts, some assumptions.
40:02
And recognizing when these these thoughts happen, and then trying to recognize that
40:08
people are different can really help us in our communication.
40:11
It can help companies as well.
40:13
So by having some training, and to increase awareness and to also recognize how some
40:20
commonalities exists among people from certain genders or backgrounds can help us understand
40:25
how certain behaviors are acceptable in some cultures and, to help us reach a a greater
40:32
sense of understanding, together So for example, do you have any brothers or sisters
40:36
Roxanne?
40:37
I have one brother and, 3 sisters.
40:41
Oh, wow.
40:41
I'm an only child But
40:43
I got and and I lost a sibling.
40:44
So I grew up in a family of 6, very, very busy loud house.
40:50
Compared to your up compared to your home.
40:53
Yeah.
40:53
That's right.
40:53
That's right.
40:54
My my parents thought they had they had a lot of siblings.
40:56
My mom is number 10 in her family.
40:58
Wow.
40:58
Yeah.
40:59
Yeah.
40:59
It's definitely on the other end.
41:01
But the reason why I asked is because I'm wondering, are your, you know, would you say
41:05
that your brothers and sisters even though you live in the same household, you live in the
41:09
same area, you know, same skin color, I'm guessing.
41:14
Do are they differ?
41:15
Are they the same as you?
41:17
Oh, no.
41:17
We're all very different.
41:18
So I You're
41:18
all very different.
41:19
I would say that maybe there's one sibling that I think would be, maybe have some qualities
41:24
like myself, but I would think that each one of us is very, very different.
41:28
So isn't that interesting then when you you grew up in the same area.
41:33
You share the same culture.
41:35
Perhaps you you you grew up in the same generation, but yet you you have such different
41:39
characteristics.
41:40
So when we often make blanket assumptions about people based on their skin color or their
41:45
gender, we're doing the same thing.
41:46
But if we have brothers or sisters or we know people who have brothers, there's sisters.
41:50
We know that they're all different based on their own identity.
41:53
So there may be some commonalities based on where they grew up in some of the cultural
41:56
norms.
41:57
And there may be some similarities based on gender, but when it comes to individual
42:01
personalities or behaviors or life experiences, education and so on and so forth, that's some
42:07
of the unique elements of our personalities of our of our identity.
42:11
So recognizing that, having that awareness, when we're communicating and awareness of
42:15
ourselves in that respect can really help us when we're we're we're speaking to individuals.
42:19
But at the same time, when we recognize a pattern, if someone's from Trinidad and they're
42:24
indirect and sort of recognizing that can help us as well.
42:27
Knowing if we're speaking in high context or low context.
42:30
Does it matter the background, the body language, knowing the knowing the the
42:34
relationship and the history?
42:35
Does that matter in the conversation, or is it more direct, what you see is what you what you
42:40
understand, what you say is all that matters.
42:42
Mhmm.
42:43
Understanding those nuances can really help.
42:45
But with the reminder that Our identity is a combination of all these elements, our cultural
42:50
background, our gender, and then our unique our unique elements, unique personalities.
42:55
Actually, my thesis and my masters was on Cross cultural communication.
42:59
Oh, wow.
42:59
Yeah.
43:00
So, like, you know, I'm not that I've, you know, kinda talked about high context.
43:03
So context, but, like, I mean, just to even understanding, and I did my grad work in the
43:08
US.
43:08
So even that element, you know, understanding all those nuances to communication is very,
43:14
very key.
43:16
And then going out there, right, like to and being able to when I worked I worked with the
43:20
Metro Toronto Police.
43:22
And what they would do is they would save sometimes the, Trinidad in cases for me.
43:26
Like, if I was on shift, because there there'd be an element of affinity to the same culture,
43:32
but sometimes it w it was very different, you know, because I'm my contact yes, certain
43:36
things were the same, but oftentimes a lot of it was very different.
43:39
So that really speaks to your point.
43:41
Right?
43:42
You know, in my family, there's such diversity.
43:45
So in a company, even though it may be the commonality, maybe that they're all engineers,
43:50
maybe they're potentially male or female, you know, they're living in different parts of the
43:55
world, all those things.
43:56
So I think individuality, like you're saying, is is key when you're really kind of thinking
44:00
of the context of Cross cultural communication, you know, you know, based on the company that
44:05
you're in.
44:06
Yeah.
44:06
Absolutely.
44:07
Absolutely.
44:07
But it doesn't help to have some awareness of some of the commonalities and the patterns so
44:12
so that we could potentially adjust or understand them better and sort of where
44:15
they're coming from.
44:16
How did you get interested in cross cultural and cultural communication.
44:19
I just I just it was something that I just was interested in.
44:23
And, you know, what I found the most at that time.
44:27
Do you remember that Rodney King, issue that that was Los Angeles.
44:31
I'm gonna date myself.
44:34
I I graduated grad school in 1994, and that was like a big thing that we dissected kind of the
44:40
interactions and those types of things.
44:42
And then just understanding, communication was key, you know, as a psychotherapist, I wanted
44:48
to understand it, and then there was the elements that I just was fasting, and I'm I'm
44:52
from a different culture.
44:53
So coming into Canada when I was already grown up, it really helped me understand a lot of
44:58
things.
44:59
And I was just fascinated by it by, you know, you know, how miscommunications could happen
45:05
and all those things.
45:06
So it was just one of those things that I got drawn was.
45:09
And I think it just helped me understand myself better.
45:12
But also when I would go out in the various roles that I played, and even in corporate,
45:17
when I would go out to different environments, some of my companies, that I would deal with
45:22
would be completely diverse.
45:25
Right?
45:26
You know, so that was an interesting length lens to also, go in and understand kind of what
45:31
the needs of the the employee base was too.
45:34
So it just, it was just one of those things that I enjoyed and, you know, and, you know,
45:39
hadn't really thought about it until we just start to talk further about it.
45:43
So
45:44
I love it.
45:44
I'm learning new things about you, Roxanne.
45:46
Yes.
45:46
We are.
45:47
So mister mister, president.
45:49
You'll know more about me as we we get together on the weekend in London.
45:53
We have our our national meeting.
45:55
So we're gonna be spending some time with, with Ron.
45:58
I'm now part of the board and I'm truly honored to be part of the Capps board.
46:03
A privilege to have you, Roxanne.
46:04
Looking forward to a great year with you.
46:06
Yes.
46:06
Me as well.
46:07
I'm I'm looking forward to learning a lot.
46:08
So, Ron, is there anything that you'd like to share about communication or a call cross
46:13
cultural communication or even a kind of the digitalization of communication before we let
46:18
you go.
46:20
I guess I can recommend my book from presentation to San Diego Vation.
46:23
It's available on Amazon, as a paperback, ebook, and audio book.
46:29
Awesome.
46:29
So if you don't mind listening to the sound of my voice for 3 hours, you can you can listen to
46:32
me in your car on Audible.
46:34
Awesome.
46:34
Well, you've got a great voice.
46:35
I'm sure they would, would enjoy it.
46:38
So, Ron, I guess what I'm learning, what I learned today is about mechanics, motivation,
46:44
and mindset.
46:45
I love that.
46:46
So I'm gonna think more about myself as I kind of go out there and communicate, with, the
46:51
different environments that I am in when I'm speaking to my audience, you know, to really
46:57
pivot accordingly.
46:59
So that's something that I'm really taking away.
47:01
And hopefully the others, listening are there's some snippet that they're taking away also.
47:06
So again, I go back to, you know, everybody's individual and they are unique and to really
47:12
tap into what makes that person unique in front of you, and all your information is right
47:17
there.
47:18
And sometimes you're gonna get it right on and sometimes you're gonna have to apologize and go
47:23
back again and say, oh, I think I did I made an error there and ask the question again and and,
47:28
you know, use all the that's in front of you.
47:31
So, Ron, thanks so much again for giving me your time and for everyone listening.
47:35
So if if if you're needing anything further from me, you know, you can reach me at Roxanne.
47:41
You know, I speak on authenticity and leadership.
47:44
And, again, thank you for your time.
47:46
Roxanne.
47:47
Thanks so much for having me.
47:48
It's a real pleasure.
47:49
Alright, Ron.
47:49
Thank you.
47:51
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne.
47:54
Cree to work with Roxanne, visit Roxanne Roxanne.
48:08
We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.