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#102 - When Your Church Doesn’t Share Your Heart for Evangelism (Part 3) · The Christian Podcast Community

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So this is part three of working through an email we got from one of our listeners,
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pastor's wife, Erica. And we're picking up here about halfway through
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the email. And one of the things we're looking at today is when people push
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back, when there seems to be discouragement that comes into the equation.
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We've covered a lot.
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Read the email in the first episode.
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If you didn't catch part one, you really should go back and listen to it.
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And then part two, and this is part three.
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But let's dig into how do we work through these issues in a church setting.
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We are all, hopefully, all of us,
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part of a church family. And if you haven't had these issues,
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you probably one day will or be in a church that will.
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How do we biblically work through these situations?
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Welcome to Gospel Talks Podcast,
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where we help Christians all over the world become more effective
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in relational evangelism and discipleship.
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My name is George Binoca, and with me today is Jeff Musgrave,
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the author and founder of The Exchange.
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And Jeff, how are you? I really excited.
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You showed me the cover of your the newest book coming out,
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a new book that you just finished.
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Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
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It's just volume two Conversations with Jesus.
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So we the the first conversation with Jesus dealt with the first twelve chapters
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of the book of John. And this deals with the latter part of the book.
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So you've got the upper room discourse.
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you've got the beautiful prayer that Jesus prayed.
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We call it the great high priestly prayer,
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the arrest, which is exciting all by itself,
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watching Jesus say, I am, and everybody fall over backwards.
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the the trials, the death and resurrection of Jesus,
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the restoration of Peter. I I I really feel like Paul or John put that
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as kind of the climax so that we could all see this is what the ministry
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of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ provides.
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And then it we end the book by looking at Peter
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in his restored role preaching at at Pentecost.
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And seeing what God does through restored believers,
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praise the Lord, God's a a God of second chances.
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Amen. I love that. That's one of my favorite passages there.
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so let's dig right into this email again.
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been praying for Erica and her husband,
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been praying for this church, been thinking about them a lot as we've kind
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of worked through this content.
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you know, there was a comment here in the email,
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just read it for you. Somebody came to them and basically started pushing back
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and saying, Why aren't you organizing
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Door knockings, which is to say,
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that's the method I prefer. Why aren't you doing stuff like that?
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And when they would encourage the people towards personal evangelism,
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people just seemed really uninterested.
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and the question I think we should start with today:
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what does a pastor do when his people criticize the evangelism methods he's using
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and not showing interest in evangelizing themselves?
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They want to be part of a group,
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but they don't actually themselves want to do it.
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Personally one on one with anybody.
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Yeah. I think anytime someone starts criticizing us as pastors,
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it's important for us to check our own heart,
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kind of recheck our own methods,
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make sure that we're we're doing what what we believe God is calling us to do.
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I think the very first instinct is I've been attacked,
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I gotta I've gotta respond. I gotta I've gotta it's it's kind of like that fight
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or flight. And most of us are pretty good at fighting.
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And I ask ask God, do you want me to to think about new things?
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Should I should I look for a new direction or should I look for confirmation
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of what I'm doing? I just feel like it I think I've used this with you before.
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One of the things that I've learned in the last couple of years that
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has just really radically changed the way I try to think.
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And it's this very, very simple statement,
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I might be wrong. Now that doesn't mean
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Mm.
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I am, but but I think that every single time there's a conflict,
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we have to ask ourselves, am I wrong?
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And and and so I feel like that's kind of the first thing we have to
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do is is re-examine our our own selves.
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but then
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Hm.
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secondly, man, there's nothing like
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new life to squelch complaints.
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so pray for personal fruit.
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John fifteen verse sixteen,
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Jesus said, I chose you and appointed you that you should
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go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide.
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And and the the beautiful picture that I see here is that every single one of us
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whether we're a shepherd or whether a sheep,
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of course all of us are sheep,
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is that we would go and bear fruit and that our fruit would would stay.
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The the I the word abide here means to remain.
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It's it's they're literally remaining in following Jesus.
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And so I I feel like if we see personal fruit,
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it's gonna change everything. So what do you think
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Amen.
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about that, George?
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I think you're exactly right. I think churches get into bit
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bit bickering when you're not doing the mission what you're supposed to be doing.
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and so if you're really heavily engaged in what you're supposed to be doing,
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accomplishing mission, that kind of goes away because you're too busy to be,
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you know, that's when you have idle hands,
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and those are the devil's workshop.
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I think too, as pastors and leaders,
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just speaking to myself here.
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Sometimes people, their starting point is not my ideal starting point for them.
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I want them to start at my starting point.
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And what the people may be saying is,
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this is what we've known and what we're comfortable with.
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And a good teacher says, okay,
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we can start here, but let me start you here and I'm gonna create a plan
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to get you over here. I'm gonna teach you along the way.
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and so a starting point's a starting point.
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You know, it doesn't matter 10 miles behind target or 25 miles behind target.
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As long as we start walking in the right direction,
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I think it's gonna that's the important thing.
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Yeah, absolutely. I it's something else that I thought that I'd really like
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to bring up in this episode and flesh it out a little bit from time to time.
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I if if a pastor would pray for one partner and then have
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the two of them pray together for one person that they could lead
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to Christ and begin to disciple that
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that that really is the beginning of the reset for culture.
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And and if instead of thinking about how do I change this whole church,
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if we can just say, Lord, give me one partner,
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and I think prayer is the key,
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that we can pray together and then begin to see fruit together.
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Hmm. I I do love that. And I think there's a humble confidence
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in what you're talking about. The general attitude with which you're you're kind
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of setting up here and and what you're saying would be the response is not
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a my way or the highway, you know,
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kind of, but a, hey, let me model it for you because I'm really confident that this
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works. But I have the humility to hear you say,
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I'd like something different and mean not to get defensive about it.
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I I think the other question we could ask here is how should a pastor respond when
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we hear because this kind of grinds on my gears.
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That's not how we've always done it.
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And it's kinda like, well, my attitude sometimes is not good when
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I hear that because I think the way you've done it is really bad.
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It's like it you should have turned the page five years ago.
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But anyway.
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Anyway, actually we
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should have turned a page 15 years ago.
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Yeah, I know.
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Yeah.
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that phrase, we ain't never done it that way before,
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is the recurring theme in churches.
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And frankly, older congregations and many of our churches are aging.
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And I I I feel like we have to be patient with those people.
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Those are the people who built this church,
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those are the people who are faithful.
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Who
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are currently keeping things vibrant.
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And you you don't want to push them away.
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at the same time, they are people who are very zealous for this church to thrive.
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And so I I feel like a good I don't know,
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challenge for them is you know,
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if if that's working for you.
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Then by all means keep doing that.
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But if we're
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Mm-hmm.
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not seeing what we want to be seeing,
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then let's talk about some changes we could make that God would be pleased with.
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And I I
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Mm.
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feel like rather than thinking about,
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man, we gotta get with the culture.
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We gotta, because we recognize there's a lot of ugly things with the culture.
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And ~
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Mm.
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and
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It feels like we're just giving ground all the time.
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And so people are thinking in terms of I d I'm tired of giving ground.
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I don't want to change anymore.
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And and if we can instead of talking about let's get with the culture,
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if we can start thinking in terms of what kind of changes could we
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be making that God would be pleased with and really be talking about
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the stuff that God wants us doing as opposed to what would practically work better.
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Couldn't have even said it better myself.
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And anyway, I'm not even going to try to add to it.
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I think that's exactly right. You don't want to throw away people along the way.
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You don't want sacrifice one generation to gain another.
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And I think that's a mistake some pastors and and leaders,
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Christians, make. And so it's like,
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nope. I think listening and then guiding lovingly,
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and it takes time. It just takes time.
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It's not going to happen. You can't snap your fingers and people have been doing
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it a certain way for 40 years.
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are not just gonna change in forty seconds.
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it it takes lots of time, love,
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prayer, teaching.
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Yeah.
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one of the things I love about our relationship,
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George, is that we're from two different generations and we look at things very,
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very similarly. And it's because we're looking at the Bible and we're looking
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at the Lord and we're both willing to ask the question,
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How could I do this better? And if we can help people see that,
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I what I am not willing to do is to ride the the boat into
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the ocean floor. I mean, I
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Yeah.
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I really do believe we have to make adjustments.
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We we have to figure out how do we reach this world we live in.
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But let's do it in a gentle and kind and compelling way.
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Yeah, I think you're right. I say this all the time to our staff here.
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No sacred cows. If if something's not working,
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you really do need to stop. because you have to be a steward of God's resources,
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but there are different measures of value too.
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So for instance, sometimes the measure of value of something is that
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it builds the people that are in it,
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even though it may not attract people that are unsaved,
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you know, it it
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It encourages the people that are in it.
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So you just have to look at the whole equation in the big picture as
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a leader and say, okay, how am I edifying God's people?
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How are we evangelizing the lost?
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How are we lifting God's name up and and try to do all those things principally?
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Now, is there a danger in constantly creating more evangelism programs?
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Because over the years you know this.
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You cause
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We are you this is the exchange.
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I it's we're talking about evangelism.
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But there is a hundred of these programs,
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and there's ones I haven't even heard of.
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and but what is the danger of of creating more and more programs this night,
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that night, this program, that program,
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and but for people who aren't personally evangelizing,
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who aren't engaging in that relational form?
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Yeah, I I think the whole concept of programs is
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a concept that the in the culture we live in has to be rethought.
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we have to programmatically go at things or we will never accomplish anything.
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But when we think in terms of programs,
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for instance, the the church that I pastored for a long,
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long time, we
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had a Tuesday night. I used to do Monday night,
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but the people told me Monday night football is a problem.
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Tuesday night, we would go out and we would visit people that came to our church.
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We would have different ways of making contacts.
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that was our evangelism program.
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And I began to realize that what we were doing,
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we were pulling people away from their very best contextual
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connections with the unbelievers,
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which is their neighborhoods, their workplaces,
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their sporting events, where they exercise at the gym.
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You know, the the and and so rather than having a program,
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what we decided to do is how can we programmatically help people utilize
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the context that they live in
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And to be able to find the people that God is placing in their paths.
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What we try to do at the exchange is provide tools and training that
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are going to be effective for them
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in that non-program approach.
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So in other words, if I'm gonna ask my
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Head
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deacon who has never led anybody to Christ,
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to go and talk to his neighbor.
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I've got to give him a tool that's gonna make that conversation effective.
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So that's what the tools and training is all about.
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But you know this,
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Yeah. Yeah.
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George. Better curriculum is never gonna change heart.
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And what
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Yes.
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we have to do more than anything else,
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not thinking programs.
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a aim at heart and heart change.
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That's really the issue. Because the the the last part of your question
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is if they how are we going to actually add more and more programs
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for people who aren't personally evangelizing?
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If they're not personally evangelizing,
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we've we've got to get at that heart issue.
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Yep. Yep. And i it you're usually gonna find it's fear.
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they think they're responsible for something they're not.
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we're just all we're responsible to be is counted faithful to do the right thing.
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and doing the right thing is taking the chance,
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taking a risk that we just did two part series on that.
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You know, are playing it too safe with evangelism?
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What does it look like to take risks for the gospel?
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and and I would encourage you to go back and listen to that.
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Now I know this
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As a pastor, you've known this.
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There comes a point, it's like you've created opportunities and you've
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put it there on the nine yard line.
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You've brought Jeff in and you've done the series,
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you've done the seminar, you've got the books and they know and they should know
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and they've been trained, but they just don't.
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At what point do you start just going to people one on one and being like,
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Hey, what what's the problem?
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How can I help you? Can I challenge you?
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Can I encourage you? How do you do that?
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How do you finagle that as a leader?
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Yeah, well i i frankly, I actually think that the very first step oughta
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be aimed at individuals, not the congregation.
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it it has I it has been said, if a pastor and his leadership are together,
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the church is gonna be fine. And so start with your leadership,
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help them and I this is not a nice
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church word, but I think people understand what I mean.
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Get help them to buy in. help them to to say,
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this is, I want to do this myself.
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I I want to move this direction.
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I want to set this example. You know,
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I I've known pastors who preach a message kind of aimed
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at an individual problem rather than talking to the individual that
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has this individual problem. That
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That is never healthy. I I feel like talking to individuals is number
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one the biblical pattern, but number two the most effective pattern.
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I've told you I wanted to talk about this kind of repeatedly through this episode.
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if if every pastor had a single partner that you
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and I are that are are
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Prayer
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partners and discipleship focused people.
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we're gonna be disciple makers together and then let it spread from there.
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Mm. Mm.
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I I really feel
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like all of this conversation we're having will go away.
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we just start with one. And so yeah,
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go browbeating people from the pulpit is never a an effective means
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of of motivation. Finding an individual who will go with me.
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in terms of my my strategies,
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th this that's what I want to try to do.
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I think you're exactly right. just grab somebody and start.
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You're gonna create a club. it's gonna be the best kind of fishing club
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in the world. you're gonna get the best kind of fish.
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it kind of let leads right into our next question,
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which is because I've noticed this,
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you've noticed it too. We've all had that awkward,
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what do they call it? The floor meeting,
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where everybody's looking at the floor because there's somebody up
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in the pulpit frustrated.
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combative, just you know, red in the face.
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And I'll ask you how how had a few times,
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because you've encountered a lot of people in the seminars.
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I don't travel on the road. You know,
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you and Anna do all the traveling.
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And so you guys go to all these different churches.
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How do you protect your heart from becoming frustrated or cynical or combative?
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Because we ran into pastors like that who are a little,
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I don't know, just out of their wits a little bit about it.
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And and so they just kinda maybe almost have on the verge of giving up.
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But but how have you guarded against that?
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Well, I I think the very first thing is what I am hungry for is not what's best
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for me as the the leader, really not even what's best for the church organization.
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When I start working down on the level of what is best for each person that
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I'm trying to minister to, you know,
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God wants every single human to be fruitful and to reproduce themselves spiritually.
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And when I want the best for what's best for my people and and and then
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I pursue that with them in love,
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then this is not about me. It's not about what I'm trying to get our church to do.
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It's about how can I help you be the very best that God wants you to be.
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And I love you. I want the best for you.
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I think it goes way back to we've covered this in the past,
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right? You teach this in the seminars.
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The show and tell, right? There there's an aspect of just show them.
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You know,
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Yeah.
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you you hear something described to you,
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you know, it's described over and over and over again.
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Okay, like for instance, in the Bible,
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Israel is described over and over again,
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the topography and you've heard it all in messages.
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But if you went there, if you actually got to see it with your eyes,
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I mean that changes things. It's like
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That's what that is. I I think it's the same thing sometimes.
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We have to be willing to just,
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like you said, find a partner,
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just go start showing what that's all about.
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and I think that instead of being discouraged or letting our energy
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get deflated that way, because we need to deal with the topic
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of a pastor's discouragement here in a second,
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instead of letting our energy go to that,
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I think our energy is better spent on I'm just gonna go start doing that.
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And let it build its own momentum,
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let it become its own thing. So what would you say?
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I I I think I know what I would say,
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but what would you say to the pastor who has poured years into his church
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and it feels like nothing's happened?
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Well, let me say first of all to our listeners who are not pastors,
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please pray for your pastor. number one,
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it's a hard job, but number two,
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it's for your own well being that you that your pastor is encouraged
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and healthy spiritually. I mean,
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it's it's gonna bless the entire church.
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So be a relentless encourager to your pastor.
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I mean, when you hear your pastor preach a
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message that stirs your heart.
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Don't just say a good message,
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but find the one thing that really spoke to you.
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Speak it back into his ears. I mean let him know that that he's being effective.
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it it's it's hard. I don't know that I totally understand it,
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but people feel very, very welcome to share all their complaints with their
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pastor and
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it it what I would love to encourage everyone in our audience to do is
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to be the person who is gonna be I'm I'm gonna be the encourager of my pastor.
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I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be the one who lifts him up in prayer
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and is constantly helping him.
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for the pastor who has been faithful without a lot of earthly success,
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I would just
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Mm-hmm.
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simply say to you, you are in good company.
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Yeah.
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I look at John the Baptist, I look at the prophet Jeremiah.
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if if you want more not biblical examples,
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Adaniram Judson. I mean, I I think by the time he left Burma he
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had about a hundred people that in and this is a lifetime of ministry that he'd seen
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saved, it did
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grow
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from there and the little bit of a seed that was planted blossomed over
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the the century next century. but I think it's it's important
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to recognize that what God wants from us is to be faithful
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and to recognize
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Mm-hmm.
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that this is what ministry is.
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I mean I I
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Hate to say it, but this is what victory looks like.
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When we are continuing to do what is the right thing to do in
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the face of discouragement and battle,
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that's what victory
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Yep.
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looks like.
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Yep. Yeah. I think and we could talk about this here for a second,
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and because how do we measure that faithfulness when we when we don't
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see the result? But I think there's a tendency on our part.
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we tend to go towards the quantitative because it's quantifiable versus
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the qualitative. And and in ministry,
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I we're actually supposed to be
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much more focused on the qualitative things,
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the things that we do because they're the right thing to do,
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it's a good thing to do. And I mean good like God is good.
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it's the biblical thing to do.
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those are the things that we should be focused on.
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you know, if I build the people with the truth of God's word,
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they will build the church instead of focusing on how do I just skip that step
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and make the church bigger.
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and I think it's really important,
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like Adnan Aram Judson said, I have to be faithful,
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willing to be faithful enough and keep sowing,
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sowing, sowing, even when I'm but so so much so that I don't
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see the results springing up out of the ground until I'm in the ground myself.
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And
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Yeah.
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so that's the kind of leadership that Jesus Christ taught because at the
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end of his life, what he had twelve,
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well, eleven disciples, maybe a hundred and twenty followers in total.
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But out of that sprung a huge revival.
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~ yeah. yeah.
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Turn the world upside down. Yeah.
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So literally.
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So how would you how
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would you say how do you measure the faithfulness when a guy is
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not seeing the metrics he wants?
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I I you know, I agree with you that
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Quality versus quantity. I I really do think that's valuable.
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Having said that, sometimes you don't even see the quality coming that you want.
23:49
I think
23:49
Sure.
23:50
another key is for me personally to constantly be innovative,
23:55
you know, always fresh. In other words,
23:57
don't don't let it become stale and I Anna and I
24:02
This is not nice, but we've seen a lot of people,
24:04
they're just doing church. They're doing the same thing this week
24:06
Mm.
24:07
that they did last week, and they're faithful.
24:09
and faithful, yes, but I believe it is appropriate for us to ask
24:14
God for innovative ideas, to ask God to keep us fresh,
24:19
to be genuinely spirit empowered,
24:21
to be spirit led, to be hardworking.
24:25
quite frankly, some of our problems are self-inflicted and we we can't just keep
24:32
doing the same thing and expecting different res results.
24:36
We we've we've got to figure out what can we do that would be helpful
24:42
in this situation.
24:44
Yeah. I we just I love the way you put that.
24:47
We just can't be scared to take risks and innovate.
24:50
I think about Jonathan and his sword bearer.
24:52
There's two swords in all of Israel.
24:54
Just two. And they could have thought the mentality could have been
24:58
a scarcity mentality of, well,
24:59
because there's only two swords,
25:01
we better not take chance with these.
25:03
Instead,
25:03
Yeah.
25:04
Jonathan's like, Well, there's a Philistine camp right up there,
25:07
and there's only two of us with swords.
25:09
Let's go take it. And they go take it.
25:10
Well now there's thirty swords in Israel because they took a chance with those
25:14
two swords. And so this is that multiplication model you talk about all the time.
25:18
It's why we teach that. Is because that multiplication by one
25:22
on one multiplication is far more powerful extrapolated than just
25:27
the one guy who has all the talent in the world and you know is winning lots
25:32
of people by himself. is
25:35
Just go start swinging the sword and take a risk and watch God bless.
25:39
Yeah. I I haven't talked about this yet,
25:42
George, and
25:43
don't think it's wrong at some point to ask God if it's time for a new assignment.
25:50
I I think I think it's not wrong to look to God for change.
25:57
I mean address change. I I I've often heard said God gives
26:02
us itchy feet before he
26:04
Mm.
26:04
gives us a new assignment.
26:06
And so I think it's okay to do that.
26:09
I here's the here's the warning.
26:11
Don't run in front of him.
26:14
~ don't
26:15
Mm.
26:16
don't just get discouraged and say,
26:18
I quit. but I don't think it's wrong for a pastor who's really felt like he's done
26:24
everything to to ask, is it is it time?
26:28
I I think you're right. very wise advice.
26:30
especially don't run in front of him.
26:33
we have to be willing to wait in the waiting room for as long as it takes
26:36
God to get to us, to be ready for us.
26:40
next week, I think this is where we should start off next week.
26:43
How do we all of us keep our pastors from becoming bitter toward people
26:49
who aren't responding?
26:51
Leadership. How does that pastor keep himself from becoming bitter?
26:54
I think we've all been in situations where we've seen a pastor
26:57
get really discouraged and become bitter.
26:59
and it's just something that is is really tough.
27:02
It then it becomes really tough on the ministry because that that spreads,
27:06
you know, that spreads to a lot of different things that affects that that leader
27:09
in a lot of different areas of his life.
27:10
And so that's what we're gonna talk about when we come back next week.
27:14
But pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would.
27:18
Send forth laborers. Pray, pray,
27:21
pray. God is answering prayer.
27:25
God does answer prayer. He listens to our prayers.
27:29
And so no better thing we could do to pair evangelism with lots of prayer.
27:34
boy, that's a formula for just for for just revival.
27:37
but we love you guys. If this has been helpful to you,
27:40
you haven't subscribed already,
27:41
subscribe to the show, subscribe to the podcast,
27:44
go to the YouTube channel, check us out there.
27:46
subscribe to our newsletter. You can go to exchangemessage.org.
27:50
Go to the website. Lots of resources there for you.
27:52
Our bookstore. and look forward to Jeff's volume two of we're gonna Jeff's talking
27:59
about doing a crazy deal. I think we're probably gonna run out of some of the books,
28:03
but we usually do a crazy deal for this new,
28:05
new bundle, the volume one, volume two.
28:07
So we're really excited about offering you guys you know,
28:11
just
28:12
Just a awesome deal on those two books.
28:14
And if you haven't picked up the first one when the second one comes out,
28:17
there's going to be a great bundle deal for it that I think we've kind
28:20
of mentioned here and there. I'm really excited for you guys to see that.
28:23
but we love you guys. Stay in the fight.
28:26
We'll see you next week.