Latest / Scalability School / How to Build a 9-Figure Performance Creative Team | Joanna Wallace

Transcript

How to Build a 9-Figure Performance Creative Team | Joanna Wallace · Scalability School

0:00
simple product shot.
0:01
Easy. Crushed.
0:02
Crushed forever that that gum
0:03
put on the website
0:04
on many different pages.
0:06
Then it got
0:07
when they started to do out-of-home
0:08
and they were wrapping trucks.
0:10
They had that quote on trucks.
0:12
And then it became a billboard
0:13
in Times Square with that cop.
0:15
And that is like the perfect example
0:18
of how your creative strategy team
0:20
needs to be infiltrated with everybody.
0:23
We need to be telling
0:24
we need to be getting our own
0:25
post-purchase surveys,
0:26
asking the questions about your ads,
0:29
what is appealing to you?
0:30
What annoys you, what messaging is your,
0:33
you know, like moves you the
0:34
You have so much data access
0:36
and then you have so much data to share.
0:38
that is successful.
0:40
Companies understand
0:41
that and don't silo their
0:54
welcome to another episode
0:55
of Scalability School.
0:57
Man, it is just
0:58
awesome to be with you, Brad.
0:59
And we have special guest
1:01
and smart person Joanna Wallace,
1:04
founder of Creative
1:06
Consulting here,
1:07
who is one of my new favorite people
1:10
and is very funny, is very, very lovely,
1:14
very smart.
1:15
Was it to science?
1:17
Founded the creative department at hex
1:18
clad,
1:19
was a VP of creative strategy
1:21
at Bird Dogs.
1:22
Now she's doing tons of shit
1:24
everyday, dose
1:25
a lot of other smart people
1:26
and is a person that is.
1:30
We're here
1:30
to talk about
1:32
building a nine
1:33
figure performance creative team
1:34
and how you do this
1:36
because people are like,
1:37
how do I staff for this?
1:38
Because everyone's like, I'm
1:38
just gonna hire a career strategist.
1:39
And you're like, what's the move here?
1:42
How do you do this?
1:43
So that's what we're talking about today.
1:44
what who to hire, in
1:46
what order and how to test them,
1:47
where to find them.
1:49
You know,
1:49
every brand
1:50
makes a lot of the same mistakes.
1:52
So let's talk about this.
1:53
Joanna, what is the most common mistake
1:56
you see brands making
1:58
when they start building a team?
2:00
Okay,
2:00
so I think the number one mistake
2:02
that I see
2:03
is people
2:04
trying to save money
2:05
with their hires off the bat.
2:07
The creative strategist
2:09
role is expensive.
2:11
Like to
2:11
get a really good experience person.
2:14
It is very expensive,
2:15
however, to go for somebody
2:18
who's junior and less experienced,
2:20
who's less expensive.
2:22
They're the ones making
2:23
content that you're
2:24
throwing millions of dollars behind.
2:26
So to me, it's
2:27
not only just a salary to think about.
2:29
It's like,
2:30
who's
2:31
who are you investing in
2:32
with all of your ad spend?
2:33
And I think that I,
2:35
I really advise people
2:37
to start with the director level.
2:39
If you are a nine figure brand,
2:41
I really think that
2:42
this is the right move for you
2:43
if you're a smaller brand,
2:44
I understand if you want to start
2:45
with more of a senior strategist
2:47
who is a bit
2:48
less expensive
2:49
and a bit less experienced,
2:50
but truly, truly, truly,
2:52
I always recommend to people
2:53
you have to
2:54
start with the most experienced brain
2:57
that you can afford.
2:58
And the reason is because, again,
3:00
all this money gets spent
3:02
based on their strategy and the younger,
3:04
not the younger,
3:05
but the less experienced
3:06
you are,
3:07
the less likely
3:08
your strategy is going
3:09
to make the most of your dollars. What?
3:11
I have two immediate questions.
3:13
This might be a little bit specific, but
3:14
like what should somebody
3:16
maybe in this director level like
3:18
is there a range of salary to expect.
3:20
Like like what is expensive
3:22
mean relatively.
3:24
Yeah, I would say that.
3:26
I mean, I really see
3:27
the biggest difference in the price
3:29
range is the size of the brand.
3:31
So you'll see larger brands like that's a
3:34
that's a 200,000, that's a 250.
3:36
I mean, you know
3:36
obviously like
3:37
bonuses can be within there and,
3:39
you know, equity and all of that.
3:41
But I would say that
3:42
you're not going to get a really,
3:45
really serious killer
3:46
for less than like 180.
3:47
And people don't want to hear that.
3:50
And I'm really sorry.
3:52
But the fact of the matter
3:53
is it's a very, very, very in-demand job.
3:56
And the people who have the experience
3:58
and the logos and, you know, the cachet,
4:01
like they're very in demand.
4:02
And you, you
4:04
they're not going to especially
4:05
because there is such a trend right now
4:07
of these
4:09
it's kind of a brain drain of people
4:10
going out on their own.
4:12
There's a lot of people
4:14
leaving agencies,
4:15
leaving brands and going out
4:16
and building their own thing.
4:18
Those are often some of the best,
4:20
best, best people.
4:21
And if you want to pull them back
4:22
in house to go for a full time job,
4:24
you really do
4:25
have to make it worth their while.
4:26
They're getting other offers.
4:28
Yeah,
4:29
that makes that makes a ton of sense.
4:31
I don't know what the word cash means,
4:32
but I'm somebody listening.
4:34
Definitely does. Probably.
4:34
Probably most people listening.
4:35
But I understood the other things
4:37
you said, so that's just not me.
4:39
It's fine. It's fine. Perfect.
4:40
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
4:41
Then the other thing I'm curious about,
4:43
and maybe I'm jumping ahead.
4:44
So it's things that will get to.
4:45
But like when you
4:46
if you go straight to director
4:47
and we're talking about
4:48
kind of this like, you know,
4:49
this is the people
4:50
that are going to be able
4:51
to go straight to director
4:52
are probably already in eight figures.
4:54
Nine for sure.
4:55
What does the
4:56
what do you
4:57
what do you expect out of the director.
4:58
Are they writing.
4:59
Are they writing briefs to start
5:01
or are they immediately
5:02
going and building the team?
5:03
So it really depends on
5:06
how much you're willing
5:06
to invest up front in this department.
5:09
So what I advise brands is
5:12
if you're hiring a director first,
5:14
this person is going
5:15
to be a player coach.
5:16
And they need to understand that.
5:17
And they're going to move into
5:18
more of purely management,
5:20
purely strategy and higher ups.
5:22
But if you're starting from scratch,
5:23
this person does have to be able
5:25
and willing to both create
5:27
ads and oversee the strategy.
5:29
And that's really important
5:30
because I wouldn't
5:31
want somebody coming in
5:32
as a director
5:33
who isn't getting the muscle memory
5:35
of making ads for my company.
5:36
I think that's really important.
5:38
Takes one to know one.
5:39
You know,
5:39
if you're going to review
5:40
other people's
5:40
ads, it's more helpful
5:42
if you've done it yourself as well.
5:44
The other thing is that, like
5:46
so this will move into the you know, it
5:49
may seem like,
5:50
why am I paying 200,000
5:51
for somebody who's going to make my ads?
5:52
It's because that's moving
5:53
into the actual job.
5:55
You're giving them the title.
5:56
They are going to
5:57
work into the responsibility
5:58
because they have to build that team.
6:01
So after six months,
6:03
they will have a team.
6:03
They will be in a management position.
6:05
You will feel like,
6:05
okay, the salary matches,
6:07
but their first job is to do two things.
6:09
It is to build the foundation
6:11
and it is to continue
6:12
to get ads out the door.
6:13
And the foundation is the higher level
6:16
director level work,
6:18
and the getting the ads out
6:19
the door is like a strategist
6:20
senior strategist work.
6:21
But you can't just stop making ads
6:24
and focus on foundation.
6:26
And if you don't do the foundation,
6:28
you may run on vibes
6:29
and luck and instincts,
6:30
but that will run out.
6:32
So it's very important that, like this,
6:36
this director
6:37
is going to be in charge of the
6:39
yearly strategy,
6:40
the quarterly strategy,
6:41
the long term strategy
6:42
for this department.
6:43
And they really need to be able
6:46
to think high level and nitty gritty.
6:48
And that way
6:48
when they start to bring people
6:49
on, they can offload the less
6:51
expensive parts of their job
6:53
because you do not want to be paying
6:55
a director to do admin.
6:57
You want to get admin off their plate
6:59
as soon as possible
7:00
because you're paying them
7:02
for their experience
7:02
and something very expensive,
7:04
and that is not it.
7:05
There is a cheaper person
7:06
out there
7:06
who can do your naming conventions.
7:08
So that's my thing.
7:10
As quickly
7:10
as you can ramp up
7:12
to let the director be a director.
7:14
And the way that I did this at Hex Clad,
7:16
because I was the first creative
7:18
strategy hire, I came in
7:19
as the director of Paid Media Creative,
7:21
and at the time they were using agencies
7:24
and kind of like the
7:26
the growth team was kind of covering
7:28
and all working
7:28
together to get internal ads
7:30
and review the agency ads.
7:32
But it wasn't anybody's true role.
7:35
And so I came in
7:36
and the first thing I did
7:37
was immediately hire
7:38
my go to freelancers,
7:40
my go to senior strategist,
7:41
my go to incredible editor.
7:43
And what I said to them is like,
7:45
it's going to take a while
7:46
for HR
7:47
and all the moving parts
7:48
to get a full staff higher.
7:51
I'm going to fill in the gaps
7:53
with a bunch of freelancers
7:54
so that I can do the expensive
7:56
work, and I can
7:57
outsource the cheaper stuff,
7:58
and we can move faster.
8:01
Yeah. Makes the time.
8:02
Let me just start back.
8:03
So you have, you know,
8:04
somebody hiring director, you're like,
8:06
I need to go ahead and continue
8:08
to build this out.
8:09
I think that
8:10
there tends to be this feeling
8:11
where people feel like
8:12
they need a creative strategist. Why?
8:14
Right away.
8:15
And I don't know,
8:17
I think it's
8:17
maybe a misunderstanding of what
8:19
the roles are of these people.
8:20
And they say, I need to make more ads.
8:23
I need to get more stuff out there
8:25
and make more concepts and everything.
8:27
And I'm going to hire
8:28
creative strategists.
8:29
And your point is,
8:30
actually, you need to hire a director
8:31
so that there's a systems being built
8:33
and then go and hire,
8:35
like in your case,
8:36
what you've talked about.
8:37
These freelancers
8:39
fill in the team from the top down.
8:41
Fill in the team from the top down.
8:42
So how are you assessing
8:45
what is actually needed
8:46
in the organization when you go
8:48
How are you assessing that.
8:49
How are you holding them to,
8:53
you know, different
8:54
accountability metrics
8:55
like founders are always like
8:56
look like
8:57
we're going to bring these people in.
8:58
It's great.
8:58
We're going to make more ads
8:59
and therefore going to make more money
9:00
and be able to add
9:01
more concepts out there.
9:02
So how do you get the team
9:03
like rowing
9:04
in the same direction on that?
9:05
How do you get them all understanding?
9:07
How do you get them to
9:08
how do you assess like what the need is
9:10
and then
9:12
get them to move forward successfully?
9:15
So I think the first big thing is
9:16
how much are you spending a
9:18
on meta, let's say
9:19
in particular,
9:20
how much are you spending
9:21
is going to determine
9:22
be a big determining factor
9:23
in your ad volume.
9:24
But what I think that people
9:25
don't really want to talk
9:26
about is your ad
9:27
volume is determined by your team size,
9:29
and that's full stop.
9:32
And so adding all these, you know,
9:34
being like more and more and more volume,
9:35
volume, volume,
9:36
every time you do that,
9:37
outside of the capacity of your team
9:39
to think through and strategize
9:42
every concept, the weaker
9:43
and weaker sauce all of your ads become.
9:46
And then again,
9:47
you're spending money on stuff
9:48
that doesn't matter.
9:49
So I think to answer your question,
9:51
I go in there and I say
9:52
How much are we making?
9:52
How much are we capable of making
9:54
now with who you have on your
9:56
Or has it only been an agency?
9:57
But let's say
9:58
you have
9:59
one person in your department,
10:00
which is usually what it is,
10:02
you know,
10:03
what's your actual capacity
10:04
and what goal do you want to get
10:06
Usually I have to
10:07
then say you don't actually need
10:08
as many ads as your goal.
10:09
You do not need 2000 a month.
10:11
It's going to be okay.
10:12
And from there
10:14
it becomes, okay, let's figure out
10:17
I'm sorry.
10:17
I'm trying to I'm trying
10:18
to figure out the best way
10:19
to explain this,
10:19
but it's
10:21
you need to have a team of strategists.
10:23
You need to have editors
10:25
and you need to have designers.
10:27
You also really need to have
10:29
somebody who is running your UGC,
10:33
you know, reaching out,
10:34
doing the contracts, casting,
10:36
doing all that nitty gritty communication
10:38
with talent
10:39
that takes a lot of time
10:41
and energy and a lot of teams
10:44
like to shove that into that giant
10:45
JD for a creative strategist.
10:47
Because if you look at JD's,
10:48
for creative strategists, it's hilarious.
10:50
It is literally like you are going to be
10:53
like a policeman and a fireman and a CEO
10:56
and the president.
10:57
Like, that's what I'm saying
10:58
because it's like,
10:59
seems like it's all over. Like
11:01
I saw
11:02
I saw
11:02
one last week,
11:03
four pages long, the JD yeah.
11:06
I was like, what?
11:07
Like how much you can pay this person.
11:08
They're like 120.
11:09
I'm like, no. Yeah.
11:12
And what you've just created
11:13
is a cycle of replacing that person.
11:17
That job
11:18
is going to be backed up
11:19
on, on the board next year,
11:20
because what you've done is
11:22
somebody is going to say, I'm
11:23
going to suck it up and do it,
11:24
and then they're going to burn out.
11:26
And the most important thing
11:28
is not getting a
11:29
billion ads out the door.
11:30
The most important thing is building
11:32
a team and a system that is sustainable.
11:34
And that involves emotional intelligence
11:38
and people skills
11:38
and the things that people are like,
11:40
I don't care about their feelings.
11:41
Well, you need to because you
11:45
to have a functioning long
11:46
term department.
11:47
It is way more expensive
11:48
to be replacing your your team members.
11:51
And that year
11:52
or two years of knowledge of your brand
11:54
is is
11:55
going to take a while
11:56
for that next hire
11:57
to recoup and catch up.
11:59
so having having that crazy JD,
12:01
to me, the way I see
12:02
it is listen, let's see who's out there.
12:06
They don't need to have everything.
12:09
And the reason is
12:10
because they're probably
12:12
then they'll be a generalist
12:12
and just kind of not great at anything.
12:15
Also,
12:16
pick the most expensive,
12:18
important elements of being a strategist,
12:21
and that's what
12:21
that person
12:22
should be doing and hire
12:24
and fill in around.
12:25
So for example, if I'm hiring
12:28
and I know that, you know,
12:30
I'm very I'm a great writer, I come
12:32
I come from writing
12:33
and I so I'm a good scripture.
12:36
I'm really good with strategy.
12:38
I hate production,
12:40
like I'll do it, but I'm not good at it
12:42
and I don't know how to work.
12:43
This is not this is hypothetical
12:44
and I don't know
12:44
how to work with creators very well,
12:45
but damn am
12:46
I good at the rest of this stuff.
12:48
Hire me.
12:49
And then your second hire is
12:51
somebody who's really good at production,
12:53
and then your third hire fills out
12:55
whatever those other
12:56
two people are missing.
12:57
So as long as the ecosystem
12:59
as a whole has all those skill sets,
13:01
not one person has to have it.
13:03
It's the same way that we look at
13:05
at our ecosystem of ads.
13:07
Your ad portfolio, right?
13:09
Every ad has a different role.
13:10
Not every ad is a bottom of the funnel.
13:12
Bye bye bye
13:13
and has the highest conversion.
13:15
They are all doing different work
13:16
and you have to have that
13:17
diverse ecosystem. Okay.
13:18
So you kind of laid out
13:21
like okay, if you can go
13:22
director level, great.
13:23
Like you should do that first
13:24
because that makes a ton of sense.
13:25
And so I have a couple
13:26
of questions off of that.
13:27
But maybe there's like a quick way
13:30
to speed run
13:30
through at the different tiers
13:32
and maybe seven, eight, nine figures.
13:34
Not the actual tier of laying this out,
13:36
but hopefully you kind of see
13:37
what I'm going for here.
13:38
But a lot of people that listen to
13:39
this are in the seven figure range
13:41
or cracking into that,
13:42
and they're working on their way to
13:43
get to eight.
13:44
Let's say they can't go to the director
13:46
level first.
13:47
What are the order operations for them
13:49
and how should they be thinking about it.
13:51
And then if it makes sense
13:52
to lead this into your answer,
13:54
like what is
13:55
what is the catalyst actually like
13:57
drive the growth for that department
13:59
that's going to take the business
14:00
to the eight and nine figure range
14:02
from a creative perspective.
14:03
Okay.
14:04
For the second question, if systems.
14:07
So I think that you can have
14:08
a lot of talent in the room
14:09
who gets away with
14:10
for a very long time doing well
14:12
because they make good content.
14:14
But ultimately,
14:15
if you're not sitting down
14:16
and doing
14:17
deep, deep, deep
14:18
research on your customers
14:19
and your industry and your product
14:21
and reviews and all of that,
14:22
and if you're not analyzing
14:25
your ads properly
14:26
and then taking those learnings
14:27
and applying them properly and really
14:31
splitting your time between scaling
14:33
what's working
14:33
and then also building out
14:35
into these new personas,
14:36
expanding your audience.
14:37
I see that a lot of people get stuck in.
14:40
They just start repeating what's working,
14:42
and they end up with 1 or 2 personas
14:45
and they burn them out.
14:46
And they haven't expanded
14:48
to the five other personas
14:49
that are living in their reviews,
14:50
that are living
14:51
in their post-purchase surveys.
14:53
And so when you get
14:55
when you don't have a system of analysis
14:58
and communication
14:59
and sprint planning that has true
15:03
intent behind it,
15:04
you're just getting spaghetti at the wall
15:05
and you're also with
15:07
what happens is you kind of meander,
15:10
so you're following the data,
15:11
and then three months in you're like,
15:12
wait a second,
15:13
we've only made
15:15
if I'm going back to
15:15
hex bad,
15:16
we've only made nontoxic ads
15:18
for three months. What happened?
15:20
Because nobody's
15:21
sitting bird's eye and saying,
15:23
hey guys,
15:24
we're going to do
15:24
one third of scaling
15:25
and we're going to do two thirds
15:26
of testing this month.
15:27
And there's a lot of variables
15:30
that go into that.
15:30
And I think that especially
15:32
when you have junior people,
15:33
they don't always know how to say no
15:34
and push back to higher ups as well.
15:36
And that is a really big problem because
15:39
creative strategists aren't
15:41
necessarily understood.
15:42
And it can easily
15:44
if you don't have enough of a backbone,
15:46
you can easily get
15:48
turned into the marketing teams
15:50
like production extension,
15:51
and you just end up filling in content
15:54
for marketing calendars.
15:55
So you really need to have
15:56
somebody who is willing
15:57
and confident enough
15:59
to push back and say, no.
16:00
Is this going to move growth forward?
16:02
What is the actual priority here?
16:04
And I need to put strategy
16:05
ahead of vibes.
16:08
If you're in this seven figure range
16:09
and maybe director
16:10
is like
16:10
slightly out of reach
16:11
or completely out of reach,
16:12
and you need to go somewhere.
16:14
And you know what's interesting?
16:15
I know I'm doing this
16:16
tangent thing again, but it's like
16:17
Zach is not to glaze
16:18
Zach while he's not here,
16:19
because it's like
16:20
my least favorite thing to do.
16:21
But the exact
16:22
a great example of this is like,
16:23
Zach is really good
16:24
at the marketing side of things.
16:26
And so like
16:26
he knows what it takes to like,
16:28
scale up the marketing department.
16:29
And he's a great example of
16:30
like what founders in kind of this
16:32
like era of DTC can look like.
16:34
Not saying that's the only route.
16:35
And so like he was able to get you know,
16:38
I mean obviously hired great people.
16:39
But before he did that, he
16:40
he was able to do a lot of this himself.
16:43
So if you're in the seven figure age,
16:45
back to my question.
16:46
It's like who do you look for first.
16:48
And then I have
16:49
some follow ups for there.
16:50
But who do you look for?
16:51
Who do you look for in that range?
16:52
All right, friends, quick break.
16:53
This episode is brought to you
16:54
by North Beam,
16:55
the marketing attribution platform
16:57
that we love over here
16:58
at Scalability School.
16:59
If you're a marketer,
17:00
I mean, you probably agree, right?
17:01
Incremental testing is broken.
17:03
They were.
17:04
These tests
17:04
require tons of labor
17:06
spreadsheets to reference,
17:08
and the designing of the test
17:10
is slow and error prone.
17:11
How are you supposed to know
17:12
what to test in the first place?
17:14
Right.
17:14
There's a million factors
17:15
that can make incremental
17:16
testing difficult.
17:17
But the good news is North
17:19
Beam has completely changed the game,
17:21
and they fix this.
17:22
Only North Beam
17:23
incrementally automates
17:24
your incremental test
17:25
design and monitoring,
17:27
while protecting you
17:28
from the major mistakes
17:29
that plague incremental testing.
17:31
North beam builds tests
17:32
using your own MTA data,
17:34
launches them directly
17:36
in ad platforms,
17:36
and automatically
17:37
monitors them throughout.
17:39
If something threatens validity,
17:41
you're alerted before
17:42
it ruins the result.
17:43
With North Beam,
17:44
you can launch tests in platform
17:46
with a single click,
17:47
saving you tons of time
17:49
and reducing any chance for errors.
17:51
And when the
17:52
test concludes, your results
17:54
flow straight into your MTA,
17:56
meaning you can easily
17:57
see results
17:57
alongside the rest of your data.
17:59
Incrementally. Was broken.
18:01
North beam fixed it.
18:03
Yeah, what I would do is
18:04
I would if you're going to hire
18:06
one person,
18:06
that person needs to have
18:07
agency experience.
18:08
That person preferably has agency
18:10
and brand experience. That's the dream.
18:12
But if you have to choose,
18:14
you always have to choose.
18:16
I mean, everyone has their own free will.
18:18
I would always choose agency
18:20
and there is a learning curve for both.
18:23
However, the learning curve
18:25
for an agency person
18:26
is they have worked across
18:28
a billion different clients.
18:30
They have seen
18:31
what's working in life
18:32
insurance and figured out
18:33
how to translate that to cosmetics.
18:36
They have it
18:38
exposed to
18:38
so much data and people who are in-house
18:42
unless like oftentimes you're homegrown
18:45
and you're teaching yourself
18:46
first of all.
18:47
And second of all,
18:48
your learning depends
18:50
on who was teaching you.
18:51
And you're only learning
18:52
from really one person.
18:54
So maybe you reported to me
18:56
and you learned and stuff,
18:58
but you also only learned my perspective.
19:00
And that is not enough
19:02
for you
19:03
to be a well-rounded,
19:05
critical thinker strategist.
19:06
You have to
19:07
you have to learn from multiple mentors.
19:09
You have to see different ways
19:10
of doing things.
19:11
So when I'm looking for somebody,
19:13
what I would do is
19:14
I would look for a senior
19:16
strategies to lead
19:17
pods who's taken on the priority clients
19:20
at their agency, the one who's trusted
19:24
that person
19:25
may not have
19:26
personally set up
19:27
the systems, personally led everything,
19:31
but they have experience mentoring and
19:33
and having some direct reports.
19:36
You're saying
19:36
agency people,
19:39
the agency experience,
19:40
you're looking for somebody
19:40
who hasn't built the systems,
19:41
but they've experienced
19:42
and they've kind of like osmosis.
19:44
Yes, yes.
19:45
Okay, so here's the thing.
19:46
By the time you get to be a senior
19:47
creative strategist,
19:49
you have seen everything
19:50
done wrong in every way.
19:52
You've seen some people do some things
19:53
right, and you're like,
19:53
I'm going to pocket that.
19:54
If I get to rule the world,
19:56
I will use that strategy.
19:57
But mostly
19:58
you've seen stuff
19:58
that you've been frustrated about
20:00
and you haven't
20:00
had the ability to change.
20:02
That's what happened.
20:03
So I got hired by
20:04
I have been a senior,
20:05
I've been a director,
20:06
but I have never, you know,
20:08
built everything out.
20:10
I never built everything out myself.
20:12
I'd been a part of the teams
20:13
building things out,
20:14
but how I learned to do that
20:16
is I've seen I've gotten
20:17
all the data on how I do it wrong.
20:19
I hate everything everyone's done.
20:20
So I'm going to do it
20:21
my way, and I'm going to
20:23
learn all those lessons
20:24
and just not repeat them.
20:25
And that person is if you find somebody
20:29
you can tell in an interview
20:30
if they've just, they've got the goods.
20:33
I hate that phrase,
20:34
but you can tell if they're like smart
20:35
and you can tell that in ten years
20:37
they're going to be somebody
20:38
and maybe you'll end up working for them,
20:40
but they don't
20:40
necessarily have the exact resume yet.
20:43
That person is goal.
20:44
Give them a chance, they'll be cheaper.
20:47
And that person can set this all up.
20:51
If they've been at an agency,
20:52
they've seen the machine run.
20:54
They can take the good parts,
20:55
leave the bad parts
20:56
and build it themselves.
20:57
People are amazing when you, you know,
20:59
especially if they're young
21:00
and you can get them.
21:01
I think that's that's totally true.
21:02
I mean,
21:03
this is why the people that I feel like
21:06
hire great folks
21:08
for their organizations.
21:10
A lot of times
21:11
the people that are
21:12
the most excellent come from
21:14
sometimes not even the industry.
21:15
And they like, know
21:16
that they're really talented
21:17
and they can do certain things
21:18
and they can get it done,
21:19
and they bring them over here
21:20
and they're like, oh, they're great.
21:21
Me come to.
21:22
It's just because they
21:23
have built systems.
21:24
They know how to do it.
21:25
They're hungry.
21:26
And that's
21:26
I think that's that's a huge
21:27
hack in hiring actually.
21:30
What are
21:30
the things
21:31
what of the organizations you've seen?
21:34
What are they
21:36
that are doing really well
21:37
in terms of success
21:38
in revenue and net profit,
21:41
like, you know,
21:42
Tam growth and everything else?
21:44
What are they doing in
21:46
their creative strategists teams or,
21:49
sorry, their creative teams
21:51
that other people are not doing?
21:53
The reason I ask this is
21:54
I think you look at our other
21:56
co-host, Zach Stack, right?
21:57
And what he does in In Mars, Man
22:02
and in hollow.
22:03
And you know,
22:05
what they've done is
22:05
they've upped the amount of production
22:08
and they've made
22:10
the amount of ads important.
22:12
But it not necessarily just seamount
22:13
but like net new concepts
22:15
and net new persona unlocks as one.
22:19
And they've they've also
22:22
seem to
22:23
there's an incentivize
22:25
plan
22:26
really incentivized
22:27
plan of like yes this has done well.
22:30
This creative has done well.
22:31
And you are going to be rewarded
22:32
for this.
22:33
I'm just curious, like,
22:34
what other things have you seen that
22:37
looking at all
22:38
these organizations
22:38
that have been absolutely incredible.
22:40
But what are they doing that are,
22:42
you know,
22:42
that others are not
22:43
in their creative department builds?
22:45
I think a big thing is
22:46
they understand
22:47
creators and creator partnerships.
22:49
It's so huge and it's so hard.
22:52
And that's why I say,
22:53
please do not put that
22:54
all in your strategist,
22:55
because that's a full job,
22:58
especially with,
22:59
you know,
23:00
at the meta conference earlier
23:01
this year,
23:01
which we were at like learning
23:03
about just how much priority meta
23:05
is putting into partnerships and creators
23:07
and how it really is the future
23:09
that is so easy to screw up
23:11
and that is so easy to do well
23:13
and grow exponentially.
23:15
So the companies that
23:16
I think are having success are the ones
23:18
who have created a creator pipeline
23:20
that makes sense, that scalable,
23:22
which can be very hard.
23:24
But I think that's
23:25
I think that's massive.
23:27
I think the other thing
23:28
that they're doing is
23:30
they have quarterly plans.
23:31
Man, it is so easy in this industry
23:34
fashion plan week to week.
23:37
Man, I didn't even
23:38
think of doing quarterly plans
23:39
until I got the hex. Glad.
23:40
I mean, to be fair,
23:41
when you're at an agency, you can't.
23:43
You can have a quarterly plan
23:44
for what your agency is going to do.
23:46
But yeah,
23:48
that's a so that's a huge thing is like
23:50
people don't
23:51
necessarily this job is so heads down
23:53
hamster wheel or hamster wheel that they
23:57
people don't often
23:58
have time to look up and learn
24:01
and see the big picture.
24:02
So people don't have time to learn
24:04
AI, right?
24:05
They're doing the job of five people.
24:07
It's one job,
24:08
but they're doing the job of five people,
24:09
and then you expect them
24:10
to also become an AI expert.
24:12
Like, when are they ever going to sleep,
24:13
see their children?
24:14
Like, that's not literally.
24:15
It's a choice between keep your marriage
24:19
and learn AI.
24:20
Obviously you're going to learn AI,
24:22
and that's and that.
24:23
And that's why I chose to just quit
24:24
my job, learn AI and keep my marriage.
24:26
So I mean, there's that alternate
24:27
door, door number three. Yeah.
24:30
But so that's,
24:32
that's that's really huge that I,
24:37
I think they're also it's that they are
24:39
they are pushing forward with the AI,
24:41
you know,
24:41
even though everybody is doing
24:43
so many jobs,
24:44
there's somebody on the team
24:46
whose job it is to be forward
24:47
thinking on AI.
24:48
I think putting that on everybody
24:51
individually to become an expert
24:52
individually is not fair
24:55
and not going to work.
24:57
And I think that the companies
24:59
that really have,
25:00
you know,
25:00
AI and like engineers
25:02
who are building stuff for the company,
25:03
we're going to automate this for you.
25:05
We're going to clod
25:05
code this thing for you.
25:06
We're going to make your life easier.
25:08
The ones that are succeeding
25:09
are the ones that are learning
25:10
how to
25:10
automate the things
25:12
that can be automated,
25:13
but they don't put that on people
25:14
who that's not their job.
25:15
They have somebody who genuinely
25:18
is forward thinking and focused on this.
25:20
The other thing that I see
25:22
is communication.
25:24
So when I walked into Hex Clad,
25:27
it was like a kid in a can I curse?
25:30
Yes.
25:31
It's like a kid
25:31
in a motherfucking candy store.
25:33
I walked in and I was
25:34
I was like a kid in Costco.
25:35
I was like, oh my God.
25:39
The world is my Easter.
25:40
Every single one of these departments
25:42
has has data and information.
25:44
And I got really excited.
25:45
And so like the first, you know,
25:47
first thing I did is
25:48
I set up these meetings
25:49
monthly meetings
25:49
with like the retention team
25:51
and with the website
25:52
team, the Crow team,
25:53
the Costco team,
25:55
the product team, and I.
25:58
It was incredible
26:00
because really creative strategy
26:03
your that department is
26:04
the testing ground is the guinea pig
26:05
for your entire company.
26:07
So the more information
26:09
and the deeper in research.
26:11
So like that's
26:12
where the product team comes in.
26:14
I used to have meetings
26:15
with the product team
26:15
where we would just
26:16
grill them about like,
26:17
okay, wait,
26:18
so like
26:18
the different layers of the knife, like,
26:20
can you explain this more to me?
26:22
Because the strategist
26:23
has to know more than like
26:24
literally anyone
26:25
except for the person
26:25
who built the product
26:27
and needs to make sure
26:27
it's like FDA approved.
26:29
So like you need to know the most
26:31
besides the product team.
26:32
So the thing is, it's yes,
26:34
you need to communicate
26:35
with the other teams
26:36
and you need to kind of
26:37
get some cohesion.
26:38
And data needs to go both ways.
26:39
But truly,
26:40
the majority of your data
26:42
is coming from
26:43
the creative strategy team.
26:44
And what you need to do
26:45
is use that as the testing
26:47
ground and disseminate the data.
26:49
So if I've found an amazing headline
26:52
that unlocks a new persona and the
26:54
the website
26:55
should be using that on their website,
26:57
whether you're going to make
26:58
a landing page for it,
26:59
whether it's going to go in the home page
27:00
where you're just going to sprinkle it
27:01
in somewhere.
27:02
If I have a learning that this works,
27:04
this should be everywhere.
27:06
And I've used this example before,
27:08
but at hex
27:08
that I thought it was just like
27:09
so we add those working. It was a static.
27:11
It says the best cookware
27:12
on the fucking planet.
27:13
Gordon Ramsay simple product shot.
27:15
Easy. Crushed.
27:16
Crushed forever
27:18
that that gum put on the website
27:20
on many different pages.
27:21
Then it got
27:22
when they started to do out-of-home
27:24
and they were wrapping trucks.
27:25
They had that quote on trucks.
27:27
And then it became a billboard
27:29
in Times Square with that cop.
27:31
And that is like the perfect example
27:34
of how your creative strategy team
27:36
needs to be infiltrated with everybody.
27:38
We need to be telling
27:40
we need to be getting our own
27:40
post-purchase surveys,
27:42
asking the questions about your ads,
27:44
what is appealing to you?
27:45
What annoys you, what messaging is your,
27:48
you know, like moves you the most
27:51
you can.
27:51
You have so much data access
27:53
and then you have so much data to share.
27:55
And that is successful.
27:57
Companies understand that and don't silo
28:00
their teams.
28:02
Is there
28:02
a is there a way
28:03
you like okay,
28:04
there's two five questions to that.
28:06
And then there's
28:08
a bunch of team questions
28:09
I'm selfishly curious about.
28:10
But in terms of
28:12
like disseminating information,
28:13
how do you disseminate the information
28:14
across the organ to
28:15
how do you decide when,
28:17
like what is the scale
28:18
that says this has been the top spending
28:19
ad for three weeks, or it spent X amount
28:22
like I'm sure it's relative to the brand,
28:24
but when do you decide that it's
28:25
worth sharing?
28:26
Or is it just like, hey, we have these,
28:27
we have these monthly standings
28:28
where a bunch of people on the team,
28:30
we share all the interesting insights,
28:31
and then somebody somebody picks the
28:33
yeah the learning. Yeah. So
28:37
I think there's multiple
28:38
ways you can do this.
28:38
And I think it really depends
28:39
on the culture of your company.
28:41
So I think that some people have
28:42
like the slack channel
28:43
where you just dump winning stuff
28:45
and people
28:46
either are really good about it
28:48
or mute it.
28:49
I personally think that I
28:52
like a monthly meeting
28:55
or at the very least
28:55
a quarterly meeting,
28:57
depending on the department.
28:58
I think, like certain departments
29:00
need to be communicating
29:01
more frequently than others.
29:02
But like,
29:03
I would have a monthly call
29:04
with the retention team
29:05
and we would just go through, hey guys.
29:06
These are the patterns of what's working
29:08
that we're seeing.
29:09
These are the patterns you're seeing.
29:10
I think it would be good for you
29:12
to test this top
29:13
performing language as a subject line.
29:14
If you guys are interested
29:15
and then they can do
29:16
their own decision making.
29:17
No, that doesn't work.
29:18
It's retention.
29:19
It's returning customers
29:20
that doesn't make sense, blah blah blah.
29:22
But it's not about like specific
29:23
ads so much as it is the trend.
29:25
And it's the
29:27
the overall learnings of like
29:28
people are really responding
29:29
to this value prop
29:31
and let's hit it harder for retention
29:34
for like the Costco team that I met
29:38
with them, like not very often,
29:39
but the reason why I went to them.
29:41
And I think the reason
29:42
why also I worked with
29:43
like the Amazon team,
29:45
the Amazon team,
29:46
it was like very, very siloed.
29:47
And we got together
29:49
and it was so exciting
29:50
because it was like,
29:50
let's share learnings.
29:52
You are a team, like a small team.
29:54
Also, let's just recut our ads
29:56
the way you need them.
29:58
Like, why are you making stuff separate?
29:59
Like share the love.
30:00
It takes my editor five minutes,
30:02
I got you,
30:03
you know,
30:03
and I met with the Costco team
30:05
because I'm like, listen,
30:06
if Hex Club started at Costco and grew
30:09
clearly these guys selling on the floor
30:11
know what they're doing.
30:12
So what are you saying to these people
30:14
to get them to by?
30:15
Because I should be using that for an
30:17
I should be trying that out as an ad.
30:19
Yeah.
30:19
I mean, so much of it
30:20
like we've talked about this before
30:22
on other episodes,
30:23
we had Harry Dayan
30:24
and he was talking about how important
30:27
doing real research
30:28
is within writing a great copy
30:32
and writing great,
30:33
like writing great briefs, essentially.
30:35
And a lot of it
30:37
is not just the traditional stuff
30:39
of post-purchase surveys
30:41
or building a tool that looks at Reddit
30:44
and scrapes other stuff,
30:45
which is good
30:45
and like can be helpful and useful,
30:47
and I think that's okay.
30:48
But also sitting down
30:50
and actually truly understanding
30:52
the product
30:53
and ways
30:54
people are using it
30:55
and how and the concerns
30:56
that people have.
30:57
And, you know,
30:58
combining that with that, add comments
31:00
and other things is incredibly powerful.
31:02
And I think that's a massive unlock
31:04
that a lot of folks don't do as much.
31:08
I think it's also
31:10
I think your points around also building
31:13
what are other people doing.
31:15
You know,
31:15
obviously it's just
31:16
it's planning related.
31:17
It's it's being strategic
31:19
and going through and
31:21
and and communicating
31:23
like it's all it all makes sense.
31:25
I think it's it's cool to hear that
31:27
none of this is out of reach for anybody.
31:29
It's not like there's some secret sauce,
31:31
you know I think great.
31:32
And that's okay.
31:33
I mean, yeah, like,
31:34
I think you're creative.
31:35
There's this, like,
31:35
there's this feeling
31:37
that other people
31:38
have all these creative things
31:39
that they're doing or systems
31:41
that it's a great way that people have
31:43
that people have gotten
31:44
a lot of people on the email list
31:45
makes them feel behind,
31:47
you know,
31:47
but it's like,
31:47
not necessarily it's an industry of film.
31:49
Oh yeah. Yeah.
31:50
That's that's so true.
31:52
So and so
31:55
let's talk about hiring these people
31:57
like and actually finding great people.
31:59
Like where are these people.
32:03
Because when I was doing recruiting,
32:04
which I'm no longer doing,
32:05
but I am I'm sort of doing it
32:08
with, with a partner now.
32:10
And I didn't have one before
32:12
we'd get it,
32:13
we'd get a thing
32:13
for a creative
32:14
strategist, we'd get a gig
32:15
and then go out and post it
32:16
on LinkedIn or whatever,
32:17
and I'd get like 50 people emailing me.
32:20
And some of them
32:22
were not actually creative strategists.
32:23
Like they
32:24
they had done stuff with big brands,
32:27
but they it like wasn't real actual data
32:30
e-commerce stuff. Right.
32:32
And I was like,
32:33
you know,
32:34
this position requires
32:35
like in the JD,
32:35
like requires
32:36
four years of experience
32:38
on an e-commerce brand.
32:39
And people are like, well,
32:40
I worked at L'Oreal and I'm like,
32:42
I don't care.
32:43
I mean, it's like irrelevant for this.
32:45
Yeah. And they're like, I briefed TV.
32:47
You know, I'm like,
32:48
that's also irrelevant.
32:49
So not how do you find these people?
32:52
Like what?
32:54
And, you know,
32:55
how do you truly find great folks?
32:57
Like, where are they hiding?
32:58
So especially with AI bullshit,
33:01
artists are getting much better
33:02
at bullshitting.
33:03
And so I think like for me,
33:06
the biggest red flag is
33:07
when someone's title is like,
33:08
I can turn extra Roas
33:09
and I'm just like, no.
33:11
First of all,
33:12
even if you can,
33:12
I don't like, you know, I'm sorry.
33:16
I'm sure there's plenty of people
33:17
who are delightful who do that.
33:18
Maybe you guys do,
33:19
but so there's a few places
33:23
that you can find them. And I think the
33:27
I think why like some
33:28
recruiting people struggle.
33:30
Is that like you're saying there's,
33:31
it's it's
33:32
it's hard to sift through
33:34
who has actually had
33:35
the correct experience.
33:36
So I think there's two
33:37
types of people out there.
33:39
They're the people who are heads down,
33:41
not interested in having their name out
33:44
there, just want to do good work and go
33:45
the traditional route
33:46
of just quietly being awesome
33:48
and going job to job. Fine.
33:50
They're harder to find.
33:52
Then there are the people who are active
33:54
on LinkedIn, active on DTC, Twitter,
33:57
you know, really
33:58
putting their brand out there.
34:01
And those people are obviously easier
34:03
to find and easier to evaluate
34:05
because you can go
34:07
and look at their posts and say,
34:08
does this person get it?
34:09
Can I tell if they're writing with AI?
34:11
Are they a good writer?
34:12
You know, what are they saying?
34:14
I literally have gotten job offers
34:18
too soon in the process,
34:19
because my LinkedIn essentially was like
34:21
two rounds of interviews
34:23
because they could
34:23
glean so much information
34:25
about me and my skill sets
34:27
just based on that.
34:28
So I think that looking for the people
34:31
who are talking the talk
34:32
and feel very legitimate in it and then
34:36
and their resume matches,
34:37
I think there's a lot of people who talk.
34:39
And then you look on
34:40
their LinkedIn resume and you're like,
34:41
so you've worked for your 24
34:43
and you've only worked for yourself.
34:45
No. Yes.
34:46
I think the best creative strategist,
34:48
if you really
34:49
if you really want a killer,
34:50
that person has to have
34:51
agency experience.
34:52
Like at some point
34:53
they don't have to come directly from it.
34:55
But like I,
34:57
it's a really hard sell for me.
34:59
Maybe if you've worked at like Jones Road
35:01
or Hex got under like
35:02
the best of the best maybe.
35:03
But like,
35:03
you still have only heard
35:04
from one perspective.
35:06
So,
35:08
those people are easier to find
35:09
and assess just right off the bat.
35:11
Then, you know,
35:11
the secret ones are harder,
35:13
and those are through word of mouth.
35:16
And what it is, is I, you know,
35:19
working at two
35:20
started getting started at tube science.
35:21
Tube science, like our cohort,
35:23
you know, everyone
35:23
just spread out and became
35:25
super successful at various
35:27
brands, various agencies.
35:28
So like my personal network
35:30
grew wildly as we all went off
35:32
and did our own thing.
35:33
So I now have a large,
35:36
trusted group of people
35:37
who I know can do the job.
35:39
Then I have the second layer
35:41
of the Kevin Bacon,
35:42
which is the people I trust.
35:43
Trust those others,
35:44
trust these other people I've never met.
35:47
That's the
35:48
you know,
35:48
it's still it's still social proof.
35:50
And those are the people.
35:52
So it's really
35:53
it's mining your network
35:55
and mining other people's network
35:57
to find people who have been vouched for.
36:00
And I really, really think that's
36:03
that's the key.
36:04
And even if they are hiding,
36:05
you know,
36:06
like the friends of friends can find
36:08
the ones
36:08
who are under the rock
36:09
doing the good work
36:10
and just being quiet about.
36:12
I just usually look at who
36:13
comments on Denny's
36:15
YouTube videos and then try to hire them,
36:18
because at least I know
36:19
that they're following Da.
36:20
And I'm just kidding.
36:21
I think that's true.
36:22
Like, so you're going in the network
36:24
and you're saying
36:24
you're going to your network
36:25
and you're like, hey, like,
36:26
look, I've,
36:27
I've, I'm
36:27
looking for somebody
36:28
that can do these things.
36:29
They do not anyone.
36:30
And I think, I think that's true.
36:31
I mean,
36:31
ultimately that's a great, great way
36:33
to find great way to find great people,
36:35
but also building your network.
36:37
So what I do
36:38
is I drop things,
36:39
but then when I do after that
36:41
is I focus a lot on building
36:44
relationships on LinkedIn.
36:45
If I'm seeing your content
36:46
and I respect you, I will,
36:48
I will like, I will comment
36:49
and then after a while
36:50
I'll just cold message
36:51
you and just be like, hey,
36:53
I love what you're doing.
36:54
Let's get on a call.
36:55
I'd love to understand you better.
36:56
Boom! New person in my pocket, you know.
36:59
So it's really all about when you see
37:01
greatness,
37:02
you have to go towards the greatness
37:03
and meet them.
37:05
Yeah.
37:05
I mean, I call that the unicorn
37:07
riding the space bus.
37:08
No, I'm just I just made that up.
37:10
I'm trying
37:11
to make you feel better
37:11
about using phrases you never use,
37:13
but I say that all the time.
37:14
So that's that's what we're.
37:17
So it's about,
37:19
you know, like, you just you have to
37:21
you have to
37:22
be on those platforms
37:23
and see who's talking
37:24
and then kind of filter douchey.
37:26
Nice. Yeah.
37:28
And I know you have
37:29
you have a system for this
37:30
which feel free to
37:33
speak to
37:33
as much as you like, but like
37:34
how do you tell if they're full of shit?
37:36
How do you evaluate them?
37:37
Yeah.
37:39
So and I
37:40
and I say this to a lot of brands
37:41
and this is I've worked
37:42
with brands on this too,
37:43
where
37:43
if you're a brand that doesn't have
37:45
anybody expert in-house on this,
37:46
if this is like
37:47
your first major hire
37:48
for creative strategy,
37:50
and you don't feel like there's
37:51
somebody on your team that can grill them
37:55
and really takes one to know
37:57
one and like, test you,
37:59
I really recommend
38:01
bringing in somebody from the outside
38:02
who is an expert
38:03
to do a round of your interviews.
38:05
Just get in there and just,
38:08
you know, really ask them the hard stuff
38:10
and then report back to your team and,
38:12
and explain to them
38:13
you know what you've learned.
38:14
Record the call.
38:15
Whatever you want to do,
38:16
have the other person
38:17
have the founder on there as well.
38:18
But I think that they need to be grilled
38:20
by somebody
38:21
who can really ask them
38:22
the hard questions
38:23
and know if their answer is good.
38:25
The other thing is
38:26
that you have to do an assessment,
38:28
and you have to do a paid assessment,
38:30
and to emphasize that till the day I die,
38:33
because a paid assessment is a sign
38:37
of respect,
38:37
and it is a sign of the beginning
38:39
of a respectful,
38:41
collaborative relationship.
38:42
If you start off the bat
38:43
not valuing the person's time and work,
38:46
they now have the impression of,
38:47
I don't know
38:48
if you're going to value me next month
38:50
if I get the job, how is that?
38:51
What is this culture like if you're not,
38:54
you know, respecting
38:56
incoming people's time?
38:57
And I think that throwing a couple
38:59
hundred bucks at a few top
39:01
contenders is such
39:02
a small investment into immediate respect
39:06
and a desire for that person
39:08
who now wants to work there more
39:10
because they have such
39:11
a good first impression.
39:12
So then once you pay them,
39:15
the actual assessment is
39:18
it's really important to
39:21
to see like, yes,
39:22
can they do the nitty gritty work?
39:23
Let me make sure
39:24
that they can write a headline,
39:25
but also like
39:26
do they understand the bigger picture
39:28
and do they understand
39:29
like the philosophy and the like,
39:30
core principles of what we do.
39:33
So like I have
39:35
a, I have a couple that I've, that
39:36
I've built out,
39:37
but I think the thing that
39:39
I've recently added
39:40
that I think is super,
39:41
super important is at the top.
39:43
I say, how have you used
39:45
AI for this evaluation?
39:47
And that's so important
39:50
because so many of these hiring managers
39:52
are telling me, like,
39:53
I just get like a 25 page document back
39:56
that's like
39:57
23 pages longer
39:59
than it would have been two years ago.
40:01
And I'm looking at this and I'm like,
40:02
yeah, it's deep, but like,
40:04
this is just AI.
40:05
That's not impressive.
40:06
So basically what I want to see
40:08
at the top of this
40:08
document is
40:09
do you know how to use AI properly?
40:11
Do you know when to stop?
40:13
And do you know when to start?
40:14
Because if the person says,
40:15
I didn't use it at all, I'm great.
40:17
Don't worry, I didn't use it at all.
40:18
They missed the point.
40:19
The point is you need to be using it.
40:21
You need to know how to use it.
40:22
If they said
40:23
I let AI do everything, that's too far.
40:26
So I think that's a
40:28
that's a really important thing.
40:29
And then also having a meeting
40:30
to discuss the assessment
40:32
and really kind of poke holes to make
40:34
sure can they present what they wrote.
40:36
Because if they can't present it,
40:38
most likely they didn't write it.
40:40
And I will admit that
40:42
I'm the first
40:43
to admit that I've gotten myself
40:45
in a situation
40:46
where I'm presenting something
40:47
not in a in a job situation,
40:50
but I'm presenting something and
40:51
I am like, I
40:53
this is word salad.
40:55
And I miss that. This is word salad.
40:56
And now I'm halfway
40:57
through saying this paragraph
40:58
and I did not write it.
40:59
And I'm an asshole.
41:00
So you can catch people in
41:02
that situation.
41:03
So wait, so just just jumping in.
41:05
This will be linked in the show notes.
41:07
But you have an evaluation template
41:09
right that you sell I do.
41:11
Yes. Okay.
41:12
So just
41:13
for those of you
41:13
that are listening to this,
41:15
that's there for you
41:16
and I do like
41:16
I sell them, then I also grade it.
41:18
So it's like,
41:19
you know, you can
41:20
you need an
41:21
you need the right evaluator
41:22
to evaluate the evaluation. Yeah.
41:24
I mean you have a one time
41:25
flat fee, $50,000.
41:27
You help people hire. Yeah.
41:29
Just one conversation.
41:31
That's it.
41:32
Thank you. Minutes, 15 minutes.
41:34
If you go over,
41:35
we send a 20% additional retainer
41:37
on top of that. Yeah.
41:38
Yep. That's it.
41:39
If you don't pay within 24 hours,
41:40
there's a $5,000 late fee. Yeah.
41:43
It's great.
41:43
I have a selfish question.
41:45
My, my I don't
41:47
she probably won't listen to this.
41:48
It doesn't really matter.
41:49
But my sister in law,
41:50
she is like very interested.
41:53
She just graduated.
41:54
She's like super interested
41:55
in getting into creative strategy.
41:56
And obviously it's like really difficult
41:57
because brands want to hire people
41:59
that know how to write scripts
42:00
and do all these things.
42:01
And so
42:02
there's there's probably
42:03
a really interesting
42:04
entry point into this.
42:06
And so like
42:06
I sent here's all the amazing people
42:08
that make content on YouTube.
42:09
I was one of those people.
42:10
Motion makes a bunch of great content.
42:12
There's like a bunch of amazing people
42:13
that start following.
42:14
But yeah, I guess like,
42:15
how do you suggest people get into it?
42:17
Yeah, I think the courses are great,
42:19
I really do. I think they're helpful.
42:20
I think learning from everybody
42:21
you can see out
42:22
there is great,
42:24
but I really think you first
42:25
need to go to an agency.
42:27
So either I would
42:30
I mean, if you're more interested
42:31
in more like content
42:32
creation, maybe go to like the,
42:34
you know, the UGC side of it,
42:36
but really honestly go to an agency
42:38
and be a junior strategist,
42:39
be a coordinator, be an assistant.
42:41
It does not matter.
42:43
Work your way up,
42:44
but you need agency experience
42:47
and you honestly need to do it
42:48
when you're young
42:48
because it's freaking exhausting.
42:50
And like that young person, energy really
42:54
makes it easier to get through.
42:56
Like the tough times.
43:00
Yeah, that
43:00
makes it sound of sense,
43:01
I think I haven't, I mean, maybe,
43:04
maybe a lot of people share this opinion,
43:06
but like,
43:06
I've shared
43:07
the exact same opinion for a long time.
43:08
I've never worked brand side
43:09
except for things that I personally own.
43:10
And I've always been
43:11
I mean, I've always been agency side,
43:13
and I just feel like it's, you know,
43:15
I mean, the frustration
43:16
understandably from,
43:17
from clients and brand
43:18
side is like,
43:19
I don't want junior people on my account.
43:20
And so like,
43:21
you have to be careful about that.
43:22
But at the same time,
43:23
like there's no better way
43:24
to speedrun knowledge.
43:26
Like,
43:26
like you were saying earlier
43:27
across a bunch of different things
43:28
because you get exposure and access to
43:31
just like things that don't,
43:31
people don't get to see.
43:33
I just think agencies are incredibly cool
43:35
because you just
43:36
you just see so much shit
43:38
like across the board of everything.
43:41
And so that's, that's yeah,
43:42
super interesting.
43:43
What is what is the type of role.
43:45
Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly what.
43:47
So what is
43:48
what is the role that you apply for.
43:49
Like you got no experience
43:50
is a junior creative strategist.
43:51
How do you
43:51
how do you show that you're like
43:53
how do you show your good enough
43:54
for junior crave strategist.
43:56
So that's that's trickier.
43:59
I feel like that would end up
44:00
being like evaluation based.
44:01
But what I like to
44:03
I really try to get people
44:04
to hire coordinators.
44:05
And the reason is
44:07
because there's a lot of coordination
44:10
that needs to be done
44:11
that ends up being busy
44:13
work for people who,
44:14
like I said, get paid too much.
44:15
And I think the coordinator role,
44:17
what I'm looking for
44:18
doesn't actually need
44:20
direct response experience.
44:22
What I'm looking for
44:23
is, do you have the seeds
44:26
of what you need to become a strategist?
44:30
So those seeds can be different?
44:31
Like editors are phenomenal,
44:33
can be phenomenal strategists.
44:34
But like,
44:35
did you write for your school newspaper?
44:37
Can you give me samples of your writing,
44:39
even if it's not doctor writing?
44:41
Like I want to see
44:42
how you work with words.
44:44
Are you hyper organized?
44:46
Tell me how you organize your life.
44:48
Tell me, what platforms do you use?
44:49
Tell me what AI you use. You know.
44:52
Are you creative?
44:53
Can I you know.
44:54
Do I have evidence
44:55
that you've been creative in your life?
44:57
Did you do
44:58
you know
44:58
comedy, sketch comedy group
45:00
or improv or something like that?
45:02
It's really about the.
45:03
Do you have the seeds that you need to
45:05
then create the strategist,
45:06
because you'll create
45:07
the strategist at the job.
45:09
And why I like the coordinator is like,
45:11
while you're doing the busy work,
45:13
that person to me,
45:14
the coordinator is like making sure that,
45:16
you know,
45:16
a little bit of project management,
45:18
but it's also a lot of research.
45:22
You know,
45:22
there's a lot of research
45:23
that you continually need
45:24
to do for a brand.
45:26
And that's like competitor
45:28
suites and ecosystem suites of trends
45:31
and like organic trends.
45:32
And what of all the thought
45:33
leaders told me, we need to do right now.
45:35
And, you know, all that stuff
45:37
that needs to consistently be refreshed.
45:40
And so strategists
45:41
often just don't have the bandwidth
45:43
to do that.
45:43
And it's the greatest way
45:45
for a young green person
45:47
to start understanding
45:49
what the hell we're doing.
45:50
So they start being the person
45:51
who's like,
45:52
I think this ad from
45:54
dermatology will work really well for,
45:58
you know,
45:59
AG one, if we do this
46:00
and starting to connect the dots between
46:02
how can I adapt things?
46:04
Then they start to pitch ideas,
46:06
then they start to be given a brief,
46:08
then they start to be given a full edit.
46:11
So you learn on the job
46:12
while you're being
46:13
while you already have the seeds
46:14
of the things that people need.
46:15
And the other thing is, young people
46:18
who are chronically
46:19
online are so valuable, so valuable
46:23
because they are the ones who it's
46:26
so much easier for them to be like,
46:28
hey guys, here are ten trends
46:29
because I know them.
46:30
Because I was up till three
46:30
in the morning.
46:31
And not everybody on
46:32
your team has to be a TikTok expert.
46:34
You don't need that.
46:35
Like I said before, it's the pie, right?
46:37
As long as somebody in
46:39
there is a TikTok expert,
46:40
the other ones can focus on other things.
46:42
And young people naturally generally
46:45
end up being better TikTok
46:46
experts
46:47
I have, I think that's so totally agree,
46:51
and I think that those people can be
46:54
really, really, really valuable
46:56
to any team.
46:57
And I think that's a good hire
46:58
for anybody
46:59
to have somebody junior who's on
47:01
and then they grew up because they grow.
47:03
And also like
47:04
you're also getting
47:05
an influx of new concepts
47:07
that are on brand
47:09
that algorithmically
47:10
are going to help you.
47:11
And as we all know,
47:12
like it's challenging
47:14
to come up with concepts,
47:16
you know,
47:17
I mean, it's an hard part of doing this.
47:20
It's creative work.
47:20
It's coming up with like
47:22
like coming up with brand new stuff.
47:24
You're like, I never thought of that.
47:25
And so yes, I agree
47:26
with the people that really love it.
47:27
It's the best part about doing it.
47:29
So I have a sort of a last question here,
47:33
which is
47:35
who talked about building the team.
47:36
We talked about
47:37
where we find
47:37
these folks, talked about kind of
47:39
how different ways
47:39
you can build the team,
47:41
how you're measuring them a little bit,
47:43
those teams that start in one place
47:46
and then accelerate
47:47
to continuing to be like,
47:49
wow, they're really, really good.
47:51
And they're not burning out,
47:53
which is like a real challenge.
47:56
How are they being taken care of?
48:01
How are they being staffed?
48:02
How are how are the
48:03
how is that creative department
48:04
being stewarded?
48:05
Is it that the founder
48:08
is giving them more hires
48:10
when they say they need more hires?
48:12
Is it that the founder is involved in it?
48:15
Is it,
48:16
you know, like what are what's happening
48:20
to support
48:20
those teams to become
48:22
excellent as time goes on?
48:25
So if you've hired correctly
48:27
and you trust your hires,
48:28
which please do trust them
48:30
until they've proven that they should,
48:32
they've broken your trust
48:33
because otherwise,
48:33
like you're
48:34
never going to get anything done.
48:35
So trust your hires.
48:37
And if they're telling you
48:39
we can't get to this
48:41
like we are burnt out,
48:42
we can't do the research we need.
48:44
If you want us to hit that volume,
48:47
here is the consequence.
48:48
Here's what you're going to lose
48:49
because it's not both,
48:50
it's one or the other.
48:51
And a lot of times these companies
48:54
promise new hires, promise
48:57
new hires, promise new hires.
48:58
And it just get the can.
49:00
It just it never happens.
49:01
And that's when you lose people
49:03
because they feel lied to
49:04
and they feel like you don't care
49:06
that they are
49:08
on the edge of a mental breakdown.
49:10
And like,
49:13
that's how people leave.
49:14
So you really need to listen.
49:16
If your team is saying,
49:17
I need something,
49:18
if you can't give them a full time
49:20
hire from the US, I understand, you know,
49:23
that's there's some red tape
49:24
you got to go through
49:25
getting that shit approved.
49:26
Give them a freelancer budget,
49:28
big government.
49:30
You got to give them a freelancer budget.
49:31
You can pull people from overseas.
49:33
There are ways
49:35
that you can afford the help,
49:36
but you cannot afford
49:38
to not give them the help.
49:39
And that's just so dangerous because
49:44
it's just it's so common.
49:46
That's what I say is not sorry. What?
49:49
That's why I say it's so common.
49:50
Like, you know,
49:51
talk to a person in creative. Oh.
49:52
How's it going? Oh it's crazy.
49:55
It's like.
49:55
It's almost like
49:56
there is a disconnect
49:57
between what the founders
49:57
hoping that they do and like,
49:59
how they really grow
50:00
and what the thing, what,
50:02
like how they're being resourced.
50:04
Everything comes down to
50:05
research and strategy.
50:06
And if you are overtaxing people
50:09
so that they can't do the research
50:11
and the strategy,
50:12
they are not going to create as good ads.
50:15
You do not have the foundations
50:17
of smart creative strategy
50:18
that you need to have long term success.
50:21
So maybe you have really talented
50:23
people who,
50:24
because they have to throw it at the wall
50:25
because they don't have time
50:26
and stuff is working, that's great.
50:27
That's going to run out.
50:28
That's not forever.
50:29
And it's just like an
50:31
ad can be on top of the world today.
50:33
And then it starts, you know, fail.
50:36
It starts
50:38
going down in performance.
50:40
You don't want to wait
50:41
until that performance
50:42
is completely hit zero.
50:43
As soon as you see that start to dip,
50:45
you need to get that next
50:46
winner up there, that next iteration.
50:48
So yeah. Yeah.
50:49
And I think that also
50:51
the thing is that AI
50:52
is not the answer for everything.
50:55
It speeds things up, sure.
50:57
But saying you don't need more people,
51:00
you can just use
51:00
AI is not the answer,
51:02
especially if you did not budget
51:05
time for your team
51:06
to immerse themselves in how to use AI.
51:09
So that's not fair.
51:12
And honestly, sometimes
51:14
AI is more expensive
51:15
and more time consuming.
51:16
Like hit me up with a
51:18
with a good designer
51:19
that I have a relationship with way
51:21
faster than working with an AI platform,
51:23
trying to get an image that I want
51:24
way faster.
51:25
And if they're from the Philippines,
51:27
honestly, probably cheaper
51:28
when you look at the tokens.
51:32
That's totally fair.
51:33
We usually
51:35
Andrew's been a minute
51:36
since we've done beefs,
51:36
and I think we actually should flip it
51:38
on its head.
51:38
Maybe we maybe we should do flowers
51:40
this time around.
51:41
You know, a little vinyl negative.
51:43
But the beefs,
51:44
maybe we should be dabbing people up.
51:46
Yeah. Or something.
51:48
Something up.
51:49
You can help AI if you want to join us.
51:51
Ernie,
51:52
is there anybody that you want to
51:53
send flowers to?
51:54
It can be yourself.
51:55
By the way,
51:55
if you're like, I'm fucking great, like
51:58
me, I'm doing awesome over here.
52:01
Yeah.
52:02
Who do I want to send flowers to?
52:04
God, they're so,
52:07
so many people.
52:09
It's not a specific person,
52:11
but I want to send flowers to.
52:12
I have a community of women
52:15
who have been who.
52:18
We started this little community
52:19
in the beginning of the year.
52:20
It has been
52:21
the most incredible,
52:23
supportive community
52:25
I've ever been a part of.
52:25
I think it's probably like ten of us
52:27
on a on a text, you know, group text,
52:30
the amount of supporting others,
52:34
you know,
52:34
like helping others
52:35
shine doesn't dim
52:36
your light
52:36
or whatever that is, raising all boats,
52:39
all those metaphors.
52:41
It's been so beautiful
52:42
to see each other,
52:44
see us help each other.
52:45
So Egoless
52:46
cop on calls to teach
52:48
somebody things that you.
52:50
You've done the work and learned
52:51
code, Claude.
52:52
Code, whatever other people have it.
52:54
Let's bring trade.
52:56
You know, I'm
52:56
going to teach you guys this.
52:57
I'm going to be very generous
53:00
with my knowledge and not gatekeeping it.
53:02
And it's been so supportive
53:03
and so wonderful,
53:05
and I've learned so much, and it's
53:09
truly been a game changer for like,
53:11
my sanity and my joy with the job.
53:14
So I recommend
53:15
everybody get a little bit of a support.
53:16
Brad, who are you giving flowers to?
53:18
Your nobody know
53:19
I'm a beef sky,
53:20
so I don't have anybody
53:21
to say good things.
53:22
No no no positive.
53:24
No no no no no.
53:26
I put Johanna on the spot
53:27
and she had a great answer
53:28
and I don't
53:28
I actually don't have anybody in mind.
53:29
There's just so many great people
53:31
I don't want any.
53:32
Yeah.
53:32
No, there's,
53:33
there's, there's so many great people.
53:35
There's great.
53:35
It's a great great
53:36
a lot of great stuff out there.
53:37
You know, look,
53:38
I had a meeting with a meeting
53:40
in Salt Lake last week
53:41
with founder members.
53:42
It was about 40 of us,
53:44
and then about five members
53:45
from e-commerce, fuel.
53:46
And people that I want to give big
53:50
flowers to
53:51
are those
53:52
that showed up and gave presentations
53:57
that we're really, genuinely,
53:59
tactically helpful to.
54:00
A lot of people like walking away
54:02
like we had one member
54:03
who Tori Roque, got on the
54:06
got on the whiteboard
54:07
and started teaching.
54:08
Like his his thoughts
54:10
on how to go through assets,
54:11
like tons of people
54:12
got a lot of interesting ways
54:14
to think about stuff from that.
54:16
I thought that was really cool.
54:17
Like we had a woman,
54:19
Ali Parmalee, got up and talked
54:20
about using AI or what you can't use
54:23
AI for rather and like what?
54:26
And it was really useful,
54:27
like really interesting, helpful stuff.
54:29
And I really feel like the event
54:31
has kind of turned into a little bit of
54:33
like what I've tried to
54:34
curate is like
54:35
a 1920s Parisian salon online
54:38
or I mean in person, like today,
54:40
like of
54:41
just a lot of intellectual diversity,
54:43
a lot of thoughts
54:44
where you're kind of like,
54:45
that's interesting.
54:45
You know, I never thought of it that way.
54:46
People are like,
54:47
would you add, by that way, after
54:49
I'm like, no, I wouldn't.
54:50
But like,
54:50
that's the point is it's different,
54:52
you know, so
54:54
trying to give flowers all those people
54:55
and obviously
54:56
then actual real flowers to Gracie
54:59
because she did all the event planning.
55:01
So she killed it
55:03
and everyone loved it and it was great.
55:05
So yeah.
55:07
But I'd like to.
55:08
Brad, you want to give me flowers?
55:10
Is that what you're saying?
55:11
I mean, yes, always.
55:13
Literally every single episode.
55:14
Suck up.
55:15
Joanna, thank you for joining us.
55:16
Thank you for being here.
55:17
If those of you
55:19
want to learn more from Joanna
55:20
and you want to know more about her,
55:22
all of the information you need
55:23
is in the show notes.
55:24
Thanks for being here.
55:25
Yeah, of course I am.
55:26
Thank you so, so much.
55:28
This is delightful.
55:30
I could talk about this all day.
55:31
And, you know,
55:32
people who put up with my bad
55:33
jokes are my favorite people
55:34
in the world, so they love it.
55:36
We're into it.
55:37
All right, everybody,
55:37
thanks for listening. Bye.
55:43
The only way
55:43
that we grow
55:44
this podcast is by
55:45
you sharing it with your friends.
55:47
Honestly, like reviews
55:48
kind of don't really mean
55:49
anything too much anymore.
55:50
They're really meaningful,
55:51
but they don't do a lot
55:52
for the growth of the podcast.
55:54
And so sharing YouTube links,
55:56
sharing Spotify
55:56
links, sharing
55:58
Apple, whatever
55:59
we call it under the podcast app now,
56:01
anything you can share,
56:03
the better we're going to be.
56:05
Guys, anything else
56:05
you want to say on this?
56:07
Yeah, please go check us out on YouTube.
56:09
Rack up those views for us.
56:10
We'd love to see it and then subscribe.
56:11
Make sure to subscribe on YouTube
56:13
as well.
56:13
And I relentlessly
56:14
refresh the YouTube comments
56:15
because it dictates
56:16
my mental health for the day.
56:17
So please say something
56:18
nice about all of us.
56:20
Thank you everyone.
56:21
Thanks for listening. Honestly.