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I'm Fine, How Are You, with Katie Baker · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Theaver's podcast. My name is guiming
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Speaker 1: person and I interview incredible people who share the story
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Speaker 1: of how trauma has shaped their lives. And a big
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Speaker 1: thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to my guest
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Speaker 1: and our sponsors. So five, four, three, two and one,
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Speaker 1: Our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to
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Speaker 1: have us My guest today, Katie Baker, Katie welcome. Thank
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Speaker 1: you so much, You're welcome. So. Katie is writer, advocate,
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Speaker 1: and childhood abuse survivor who has transformed her journey of
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Speaker 1: trauma and healing into story of resilience, empowerment, and hope.
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Speaker 1: After years of battling addiction, shame, and the lingering effects
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Speaker 1: of a tumultuous childhood, she found profound transformation through therapeutic
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Speaker 1: psychedelics and deep in her work. In her memoir When
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Speaker 1: the Universe Holds Your Hairback, Katie shares her raw and
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Speaker 1: deeply personal journey, the story of confronting the past, reclaiming
1:01
Speaker 1: lost parts of herself, and embracing a life of authenticity,
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Speaker 1: self love, and purpose. And just a little bit from
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Speaker 1: the description. The Amazon description of the book says, for years,
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Speaker 1: Katie Baker wore the mask of a woman who had
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Speaker 1: it all together. On the surface, she was a successful professional,
1:18
Speaker 1: loving mother, and the embodiment of relentless perseverance. But beneath
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Speaker 1: that carefully crafted facade, the cracks were deepening into fractures
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Speaker 1: too wide to ignore. Katie, Welcome to the podcast. Thanks
1:32
Speaker 1: so much for being here. Before we going share with
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Speaker 1: our listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
1:38
Speaker 2: Well, originally, as I mentioned in the book, I moved
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Speaker 2: over thirty times. So my second home state is Oregon,
1:45
Speaker 2: but I currently reside in Idaho.
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Speaker 1: Oh Okay, I'm in Bend.
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Speaker 3: Oh Okay. That's where I was born.
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Speaker 1: Oh wow, cool, cool, All right, so let's get in here.
2:00
Speaker 1: How did all this start?
2:02
Speaker 3: Yeah?
2:03
Speaker 2: Well, I was raised and suffered the impacts of childhood abuse,
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Speaker 2: really trauma. And our motto growing up was you buck up.
2:15
Speaker 2: You just keep going. You don't look to the past,
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Speaker 2: you don't address it, you just keep going forward. And
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Speaker 2: at forty seven years old, after my youngest child was
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Speaker 2: eighteen years old, I really found myself lost, Like I
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Speaker 2: felt like I was losing my identity of mother, you know,
2:34
Speaker 2: in the raising of them, and they were getting ready
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Speaker 2: to go off to college, and I think subconsciously I
2:41
Speaker 2: sensed that I could.
2:42
Speaker 3: Fall apart, that my job was done.
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Speaker 2: And so at forty seven years old, as I mentioned
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Speaker 2: in the book, my son was eighteen years old. We
2:51
Speaker 2: were at a family reunion. Everybody had been drinking all
2:54
Speaker 2: day for the most part, but he sat there sober
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Speaker 2: next to me after I'd had, you know, numerous drinks
3:02
Speaker 2: and basically said, hey, mom, I can tell that you
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Speaker 2: are really struggling and with your childhood and the abuse that.
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Speaker 3: You suffered from.
3:10
Speaker 2: I don't know how you've done it for as long
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Speaker 2: as you have, but I think you've done a phenomenal
3:15
Speaker 2: job raising us, and it's time that you focus on.
3:18
Speaker 3: Yourself for a year, maybe take a year to heal yourself.
3:21
Speaker 3: When we got your.
3:22
Speaker 1: Back, wow, yeah, so okay, so pause there. But up
3:32
Speaker 1: until that point, how were you holding it together?
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Speaker 2: Uh? Maniacally? Doing everything I could to fill the hole.
3:40
Speaker 2: And I was seeking perfection. So in terms of what
3:44
Speaker 2: I was doing, was working too much, being overly involved
3:49
Speaker 2: with my community. In terms of just what could I do,
3:53
Speaker 2: what could I make how can I what can I
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Speaker 2: make better? I built a couple of nonprofits, I just overworld.
4:00
Speaker 3: Long story.
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Speaker 2: I married, yeah, married happily, my husband and I married,
4:06
Speaker 2: actually my husband.
4:07
Speaker 3: When I was twenty one. I was kind of burnt out.
4:09
Speaker 3: I call it.
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Speaker 2: I jokingly referred to it as my burnout years, because
4:12
Speaker 2: I was so exhausted from moving all the time, not
4:15
Speaker 2: having stability. And I was married, we had two children.
4:19
Speaker 3: When I got.
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Speaker 2: Pregnant with my daughter, I was like, I'm going to
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Speaker 2: break the generational cycles and patterns of trauma that have
4:26
Speaker 2: kept our family stuck.
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Speaker 3: And so I did that also with.
4:29
Speaker 2: Mania cul determination, and I think hence why I fell
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Speaker 2: apart when you know, my youngest was eighteen, but really
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Speaker 2: over drinking, overeating, those were some other habits that I
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Speaker 2: did as well.
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Speaker 1: Okay, and you mentioned at that gathering where your son
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Speaker 1: so amazingly courageously said that he knew what was going on.
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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, Okay, So how.
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Speaker 1: Did they know? How did everyone or did everyone know?
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Speaker 2: It was the combination of just overworking, over drinking, being
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Speaker 2: emotionally detached, like I was almost in a robotic sort
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Speaker 2: of mode, like okay, wash the dishes now, I.
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Speaker 1: Go, right, But they knew about the he knew about
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Speaker 1: the abuse.
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I had been really pretty about fifty
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Speaker 2: percent honest in terms of my abuse story with my children,
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Speaker 2: almost as a cautionary tale, because I was really worried
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Speaker 2: their whole upbringing, like I don't want this to happen
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Speaker 2: to them, and these are the signs that you look
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Speaker 2: for that.
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Speaker 3: Kind of thing.
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Speaker 1: Wow, So at that gathering, your son says that what
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Speaker 1: happens after that, Well.
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Speaker 2: It was really interesting because my son had never used
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Speaker 2: ayahuasca and so but my response to him was, well,
5:48
Speaker 2: maybe I'll try talk therapy again. Maybe I'll go to
5:51
Speaker 2: therapy again. And he said, Mom, I think you need
5:53
Speaker 2: to look into other options.
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Speaker 3: He said, you've.
5:56
Speaker 2: Tried that, and I had tried that. I just was
5:59
Speaker 2: always is okay and quotation marks. I was fine, how
6:02
Speaker 2: you doing that kind of thing? And you know, I
6:06
Speaker 2: was really talented at that I joke, and it was
6:09
Speaker 2: really serious that I got really talented, wonderful therapists to
6:13
Speaker 2: share their own childhood stories so that I didn't have
6:16
Speaker 2: to share mine. So I was crafted at figuring out
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Speaker 2: how to navigate a conversation in terms of not having
6:22
Speaker 2: to talk about myself. And so yeah, really, when my
6:28
Speaker 2: son said, hey, yea, some of his friend's parents had
6:32
Speaker 2: done ayahuasca, and so, like I said, he had never
6:34
Speaker 2: done it himself, but he said, suggested, maybe you should
6:37
Speaker 2: try something like ayahuasca, try something different.
6:44
Speaker 1: Okay, so what do you do?
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Speaker 3: So at first I.
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Speaker 2: Was like, no way, absolutely, no way. I was not
6:52
Speaker 2: scared of the legal substances like alcohol, et cetera, because
6:56
Speaker 2: those were just the beast I knew, I guess, but
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Speaker 2: I was really scared of therapeutic psychedelics, in particular. I
7:04
Speaker 2: started reading as much literature as I could find. Michael
7:09
Speaker 2: polland How to Change Your Mind. Really started exploring that,
7:14
Speaker 2: and about six months later I decided to gently step
7:17
Speaker 2: my toe into the water. However, I started really small
7:21
Speaker 2: because I was so nervous. I was like, what if
7:23
Speaker 2: I lose my mind? What am I going to look
7:25
Speaker 2: like when this is over.
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Speaker 1: You mentioned therapists and how you were good at kind
7:33
Speaker 1: of a listening from them their story, so you didn't
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Speaker 1: have to talk about your own. Just a couple questions here.
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Speaker 1: Did you find any type of therapy beneficial?
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Speaker 2: I did to a certain degree, and I was really
7:52
Speaker 2: grateful that I worked with wonderful therapists. But mymo my
7:57
Speaker 2: mode of operation, was really I'm fine, just you know,
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Speaker 2: can't you see I'm composed, I'm put together. I was
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Speaker 2: really talented even as a teenager growing up. That was
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Speaker 2: sort of like, I've got my stuff together, so just
8:11
Speaker 2: keep looking. And for example, friends that I've been friends
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Speaker 2: with for thirty years that have read the book, where like,
8:17
Speaker 2: I had no idea that your childhood was like that.
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Speaker 3: So I was very good at masking.
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Speaker 1: Was there anyone, any friend or friends that you did
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Speaker 1: share this with?
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Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, yeah, to a certain extent. But also I
8:32
Speaker 3: was like.
8:34
Speaker 1: It.
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Speaker 2: The abuse story was kind of it ranged the gamut
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Speaker 2: really verbal, psychological, emotional, sexual, physical, like.
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Speaker 1: All of that. Both parents, no, no.
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Speaker 2: No, just from stepfathers and biological father. However, I also
8:52
Speaker 2: didn't want to tell my story to the full extent
8:55
Speaker 2: because I thought, well, they'll think I'm making it up
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Speaker 2: or that I'm complaining and I've got so much baggage.
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Speaker 2: They'll think I'm messed up if I tell them my story.
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Speaker 1: So how do you go about entering into the psychedelic
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Speaker 1: realm with.
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Speaker 2: A lot of research, a lot of connections. I was
9:19
Speaker 2: really fortunate in that I had other people in my
9:23
Speaker 2: life that had had experience with psychedelics and were I
9:27
Speaker 2: was able to check in with them, you know, at
9:29
Speaker 2: the time that I wrote or I've currently written that
9:32
Speaker 2: memoir When the Universe Holds Your Hairback. But when I
9:35
Speaker 2: started and embarked on my journey, there wasn't much personal stories.
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Speaker 2: So I was looking for what are the blogs, what
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Speaker 2: are the podcasts that contain these stories in terms of
9:45
Speaker 2: the use of therapeutic psychedelics and the healing potential of
9:48
Speaker 2: these modalities, And it was really interesting in terms of, well,
9:53
Speaker 2: I guess I got to write a book because people
9:55
Speaker 2: need to know what it looks like. So I really
9:58
Speaker 2: wanted to write the raw story for people to reference
10:03
Speaker 2: and in whatever path they choose, it doesn't certainly doesn't
10:06
Speaker 2: have to be the same as mine. But yeah, So
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Speaker 2: just I started with ayahuasca and traveled far, and you know,
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Speaker 2: they have it available in South America, South and Central America,
10:20
Speaker 2: so traveled there and I kind of started out with
10:23
Speaker 2: one of the more challenging I would say medicines, and
10:26
Speaker 2: I didn't know that part of it. I just thought,
10:29
Speaker 2: I guess I didn't understand how they're different, how they
10:32
Speaker 2: work differently for different maladies that we faced.
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Speaker 1: So we're talking about just for the benefit of our
10:39
Speaker 1: listeners and myself. I'm not an expert, but I have
10:43
Speaker 1: spoken with several facilitators of psychedelic therapy on this podcast.
10:50
Speaker 1: We're talking about I mean, there are a number of
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Speaker 1: psychedelics out there, right, We're talking about ayahuasca, We're talking
10:56
Speaker 1: about what ketamine.
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Speaker 2: No, I've never used ketamine, but it was still cybin
11:03
Speaker 2: and they.
11:04
Speaker 1: And DMA, right, So those are all out there. Some
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Speaker 1: are used more, some are not legal in the use
11:13
Speaker 1: of therapy, and only only certain places did you choose?
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Speaker 1: How did you choose the place you went to?
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Speaker 2: Well respected, well researched people that had been there, talked
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Speaker 2: to them about it prior to going, and so really
11:33
Speaker 2: just do that's I think a really critical component and
11:37
Speaker 2: where I was really fortunate to do my research and
11:40
Speaker 2: make sure that it was a safe place because this
11:43
Speaker 2: is big stuff that a lot of people are working through.
11:46
Speaker 2: I was just one of mini and so I think
11:48
Speaker 2: it's it's really critical to make sure that that that
11:52
Speaker 2: you feel comfortable with the facilitator, the medicine, where did
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Speaker 2: the medicine come from, how long have they been practicing
11:58
Speaker 2: all of that, and how well I.
12:00
Speaker 3: We held.
12:02
Speaker 1: Right now. My guess is, when you're going into this
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Speaker 1: for your purposes and your reasons that we can get
12:10
Speaker 1: more clarity on that, are you thinking, Okay, I want
12:14
Speaker 1: to go and be around other people who are working
12:17
Speaker 1: through stuff as well, or want to go to a
12:20
Speaker 1: place where people maybe aren't working through trauma specifically, what
12:26
Speaker 1: was your thought process.
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Speaker 2: In that well. I wrote a chapter in the book
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Speaker 2: it's called the Art of Remembering Who We Are. What
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Speaker 2: I noticed and was such a beautiful experience is that No,
12:39
Speaker 2: people definitely struggled with trauma and different degrees or experiences
12:45
Speaker 2: for sure, but there was a commonality that we shared
12:48
Speaker 2: in terms of the desire to heal, the desire to
12:50
Speaker 2: get better, the desire to move past this. And so
12:54
Speaker 2: I met all different types of people. It could be
12:56
Speaker 2: someone facing death, major illness, the loss of a child
13:01
Speaker 2: by suicide. It really ranges like a childhood abuse. I
13:05
Speaker 2: mean that was that had lasting scars for a lot
13:08
Speaker 2: of people that I encountered.
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Speaker 3: But yeah, it's my question.
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Speaker 1: My question more specifically, was was it important for you
13:15
Speaker 1: to be in a circle of people who were, you know,
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Speaker 1: working through something and maybe just people who do that
13:23
Speaker 1: are inherently working through something I don't know.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that most people that go there are
13:29
Speaker 2: looking to better their lives. And I think it's really important,
13:33
Speaker 2: at least for me that I was surrounded by those people,
13:37
Speaker 2: because it ultimately gave me hope, like.
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Speaker 3: Okay, I can do this and it's not impossible.
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Speaker 2: This person is look at them now, you know kind
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Speaker 2: of thing, right, right?
13:46
Speaker 1: So, do you want to talk a little bit about
13:49
Speaker 1: that experience and then we can get more specifically into
13:51
Speaker 1: the book.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I do in the book how I
13:56
Speaker 2: laid out the chapters, So that's a nice segue, But
13:59
Speaker 2: is the childhood abuse and the discussion of that, and
14:04
Speaker 2: also how it impacted me as an adult, and then
14:08
Speaker 2: how I went to psychedelic ceremonies with a trained facilitator
14:12
Speaker 2: to help heal from that childhood trauma. And so there
14:17
Speaker 2: was so much for me to contend with that it
14:21
Speaker 2: probably took me a few ceremonies to really sort of
14:26
Speaker 2: start cracking open because I had this hardened shell really
14:30
Speaker 2: around me my abuse. I was used to really protecting
14:33
Speaker 2: my story myself all of the things, but in particular
14:38
Speaker 2: with ayahuasca, that is a brew that is served to
14:42
Speaker 2: you and it's a very internal process, so you don't
14:45
Speaker 2: talk with anyone. You have people you know, maybe to
14:48
Speaker 2: your left and right, but you do not speak to them.
14:51
Speaker 2: If you need help, they come and assist you. Part
14:54
Speaker 2: of that psychedelic ceremony in particular is.
14:58
Speaker 3: Not the people.
14:59
Speaker 2: Purge and chili, and that can be you get sick,
15:02
Speaker 2: you vomit, and this is a way to actually remove
15:05
Speaker 2: the things that no longer serve you. And so that
15:09
Speaker 2: was actually part of an important part of the process too,
15:11
Speaker 2: where I'd be like, I think I just let go
15:14
Speaker 2: of control or shame or all those things, those really
15:19
Speaker 2: beautiful and transformative and challenging experiences.
15:24
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about how that process was different
15:28
Speaker 1: from your previous therapeutic processes.
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Speaker 2: It was a nine day difference in a way that
15:36
Speaker 2: I had to rely on myself, that I could no
15:38
Speaker 2: longer hide from the abuse, the shame, and the ramplifications
15:43
Speaker 2: of those experiences on my life. In a way, the medicine,
15:48
Speaker 2: I guess, partners with you to show you the things
15:51
Speaker 2: that need addressed, where as a therapist may suggest things,
15:56
Speaker 2: or you may talk through some things. But it allow
16:00
Speaker 2: allowed me to see not my symptoms, which was you know,
16:03
Speaker 2: addiction or you know, in all the mini forms working
16:08
Speaker 2: all that thing, all the things, but also the root
16:11
Speaker 2: of the issue. So it allowed me to go in
16:14
Speaker 2: with an empathetic eye and actually look at the root
16:17
Speaker 2: of the problem with a new pair of glasses that
16:20
Speaker 2: I had not been previously able to do because I
16:25
Speaker 2: was so detached from.
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Speaker 1: Okay, get more specific, if you will, the root of
16:30
Speaker 1: the problem. What what did you see?
16:32
Speaker 3: Would you well to go back?
16:34
Speaker 2: You know, for example, to go back, I'll pick maybe one.
16:38
Speaker 2: But so what happened, for example, was that I went
16:42
Speaker 2: into one of the psychedelic ceremonies and I just heard
16:47
Speaker 2: a voice that said, do you know about that heavy
16:50
Speaker 2: weight that you know I'd always seen like a dark
16:52
Speaker 2: figure standing next to me, And they said, do you
16:56
Speaker 2: know what that is? And I said no? And I
16:58
Speaker 2: heard them say, that is all your pain. You carry
17:01
Speaker 2: it around. It weighs the same amount as you and
17:04
Speaker 2: that is your pain, your shame, and your trauma, and
17:07
Speaker 2: you carry it on your back every single day. Would
17:10
Speaker 2: you like to address it?
17:15
Speaker 1: WHOA?
17:16
Speaker 3: And it was?
17:16
Speaker 2: And you know what, the next day I thought, I
17:18
Speaker 2: don't think I ever need to do a psychedelic ceremony again.
17:21
Speaker 2: I'm healed, I'm so much, I'm lighter, I'm better. And
17:24
Speaker 2: the next day I was I had already signed up,
17:26
Speaker 2: and I went in and I heard a voice and
17:29
Speaker 2: they said, Katie, you forgot about shame.
17:33
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
17:37
Speaker 3: So that's how it's different.
17:38
Speaker 1: So you and prior to that, you hadn't seen that,
17:43
Speaker 1: let alone address that. Like you said, you've just been
17:47
Speaker 1: avoiding it to a certain degree.
17:50
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:52
Speaker 2: And what was happening is that, like it was I
17:55
Speaker 2: called an emotional bankruptcy, is it felt like I was
17:59
Speaker 2: I was taking draws that there was nothing more left
18:02
Speaker 2: in the bank, if that makes sense.
18:04
Speaker 3: And so.
18:06
Speaker 2: I think that's why it took me a few ceremonies
18:09
Speaker 2: to really come back into my body and recognize like,
18:14
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, you know, like joy, love, those type
18:18
Speaker 2: of things that I was maybe almost fearful of expressing
18:22
Speaker 2: or feeling. It was like, oh, yeah, this is what
18:26
Speaker 2: joy feels like. Once I remembered that or could go
18:29
Speaker 2: back to that in a ceremony, then it was like, oh,
18:33
Speaker 2: I remember what this feels like. Because when you haven't
18:37
Speaker 2: felt that for forty plus years, it's hard to know
18:40
Speaker 2: what you're seeking or what joy feels like what true
18:44
Speaker 2: love feels like, gratitude for example, all of those things
18:49
Speaker 2: that I had forgotten about.
18:52
Speaker 1: Let me just remind everyone i'm speaking with Katie Baker.
18:56
Speaker 1: Her memoir When the Universe Holds Your Back is what
19:01
Speaker 1: we're talking about today. I know it's hard to put
19:06
Speaker 1: words to these experiences, but during your first experience, can
19:18
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about what it was like.
19:23
Speaker 1: You mentioned a dark image where their images coming to
19:26
Speaker 1: you that and what was it like.
19:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, that other ceremony that I mentioned about the dark figure,
19:34
Speaker 2: that was probably about six months in. But the first
19:38
Speaker 2: ceremony I went to, I was like determined that I
19:41
Speaker 2: only wanted to be there one night is what I thought, Like,
19:43
Speaker 2: I'm going to go in there and heal all of
19:45
Speaker 2: this drama and one night, watch me go, I.
19:48
Speaker 3: Get all this other stuff done.
19:50
Speaker 1: I got this profusion again.
19:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, we know how that went. I got a big
19:56
Speaker 3: lesson on that evening.
19:57
Speaker 2: But what was super interesting is I kept hearing a
20:00
Speaker 2: voice like, let's get this done. You can do this,
20:03
Speaker 2: like get it over with, and I recognized that was
20:07
Speaker 2: my own voice. That's how I talked to myself. That
20:10
Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily it was just really eye opening to not
20:15
Speaker 2: to be like a drill sergeant essentially and just with
20:18
Speaker 2: healing as well, and not view it with that empathy
20:22
Speaker 2: that came, Thank goodness. You know. Soon thereafter, however, what
20:27
Speaker 2: happened was I felt back to sexual abuse that I struck,
20:32
Speaker 2: you know, that I experienced as a child, and wept
20:37
Speaker 2: for that child. It was really interesting because I had
20:39
Speaker 2: never really cried for myself as an adult. I'd cried
20:43
Speaker 2: for other people or I was you know, if other
20:45
Speaker 2: people were tearing up, I would tear up, but it
20:48
Speaker 2: was not common for me to cry for myself or
20:51
Speaker 2: express feelings in that way. And I cried for I
20:55
Speaker 2: swear like eight hours, not an active cry, but the
20:58
Speaker 2: tears just came out. And that is again another form
21:01
Speaker 2: of purging and letting go. And I was like, oh
21:05
Speaker 2: my gosh, is this ever gonna stop? But that night,
21:09
Speaker 2: in particular, even though it was tough, it was a
21:14
Speaker 2: recognition that this is going to absolutely change my life
21:17
Speaker 2: and I have to hold on for whatever comes and
21:20
Speaker 2: treat it with the utmost care and my help included Wow.
21:25
Speaker 1: And you mentioned another ceremony session that was six months in,
21:29
Speaker 1: so this is something did you have to keep going back.
21:32
Speaker 2: Is this out of the country, Well, this is the
21:35
Speaker 2: type of my personality. I was like, if I'm going
21:37
Speaker 2: to heal, then I'm going to go to a ceremony
21:39
Speaker 2: every four to six weeks and couple it with integration
21:42
Speaker 2: therapy and treat it like a full time job, even
21:45
Speaker 2: though I did have a full a real full time job.
21:47
Speaker 2: But that's how I set embarked.
21:50
Speaker 3: On this year of healing.
21:51
Speaker 2: When my son said, you know, maybe you should spend
21:53
Speaker 2: a year on yourself that I set up a ceremony
21:57
Speaker 2: every four to six weeks with a trained facilitator and
22:00
Speaker 2: coupled that with yeah, integration therapy, and like took it
22:04
Speaker 2: very seriously, and part of me was like, I have
22:07
Speaker 2: dealt with this for forty seven years and it has
22:10
Speaker 2: kept me stuck and in a shame spiral, and I
22:14
Speaker 2: want to get it. I want to see the second
22:16
Speaker 2: half of my life come to fruition.
22:19
Speaker 3: I would not.
22:19
Speaker 2: Recommend that for just about, you know, anybody, just because
22:23
Speaker 2: you should really take time.
22:25
Speaker 3: But you know, hindsight's twenty twenty.
22:28
Speaker 1: And everyone's different of course too, But were you going
22:32
Speaker 1: out of the country every four to six weeks to do.
22:34
Speaker 2: This yeah, I try to find like a really try
22:36
Speaker 2: to find a location where I felt safe and comfortable,
22:40
Speaker 2: it was legal, that kind of thing. So yeah, I
22:44
Speaker 2: treated it seriously.
22:50
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about the book. How did you
22:52
Speaker 1: get to the point where you decided I need to
22:56
Speaker 1: write this, and I want to write this, and who's
22:58
Speaker 1: it for?
22:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, really where the book came from is I
23:04
Speaker 2: kept hearing in ceremony when I was in ceremony, like
23:07
Speaker 2: a voice outside of myself say write the book. You're
23:11
Speaker 2: meant to write the book. And I was like, oh
23:15
Speaker 2: my gosh, I keep hearing I'm meant to write a book.
23:17
Speaker 2: Like I've never even written a book. I don't even
23:20
Speaker 2: know if I want to. But then I would go.
23:24
Speaker 2: I coupled it with all the like intuitives and I
23:27
Speaker 2: kind of embarked on you know, not only integration therapists,
23:31
Speaker 2: but intuitives, and they said, I keep hearing you're meant
23:33
Speaker 2: to write the book. So that's actually where the book
23:36
Speaker 2: came from because I heard so many messages and I
23:39
Speaker 2: so happened to know an author that had done really
23:42
Speaker 2: well with a number of books, and I gave him
23:45
Speaker 2: a sample and said what do you think? And he said,
23:48
Speaker 2: I think you're meant to write the book. So I
23:52
Speaker 2: dedicated twelve months to writing this story. It was really
23:56
Speaker 2: important in terms of who it's for and the why
23:59
Speaker 2: is that number one.
24:01
Speaker 3: I think that, for example.
24:02
Speaker 2: A lot of members of my family that have struggled
24:05
Speaker 2: with abuse, that it was really important to tell my
24:08
Speaker 2: story in particular with honesty, in terms of how abuse
24:15
Speaker 2: in particular impacts us as an adult, how we can
24:18
Speaker 2: find coping mechanisms, how we can stay stuck, how I
24:22
Speaker 2: in particular stayed stuck.
24:23
Speaker 3: It's really about me and how I found.
24:26
Speaker 2: A way out in the hopes that trauma survivors would
24:31
Speaker 2: be aware that there is potential. Like I said, I'm
24:34
Speaker 2: not encouraging anybody by any stretch to do what I did,
24:38
Speaker 2: but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
24:40
Speaker 2: And also, you know, a lot of when you go
24:44
Speaker 2: through psilocybin or psychedelic facilitator training, they will oftentimes say,
24:50
Speaker 2: if there is an abuse survivor, you need to handle
24:52
Speaker 2: this very cautiously. You need to make sure you're an expert.
24:56
Speaker 2: I did not read that information prior to me embarking
24:59
Speaker 2: on this journey, and for me in particular, I'm grateful
25:02
Speaker 2: that I didn't have that hanging over my head. So
25:05
Speaker 2: I think it's a book for abuse survivors, for therapists,
25:10
Speaker 2: for psychedelic facilitators, for people that are just curious in
25:15
Speaker 2: terms of healing, you know, and what it took to
25:18
Speaker 2: get there.
25:20
Speaker 1: As we kind of wind down here, share with us
25:23
Speaker 1: a little bit about how it has impacted you as
25:26
Speaker 1: an adult, because you've mentioned that a couple of times.
25:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, well, like I said, it was just
25:33
Speaker 2: trying to find anything I could to no whether that
25:36
Speaker 2: was more chores, more work, responsibilities, alcohol. Yeah, I was
25:44
Speaker 2: in that art of I mean, I was in the
25:46
Speaker 2: constant state of doing, not ever being, because being meant
25:50
Speaker 2: I was still and I would have to reflect on
25:54
Speaker 2: how things were going. And so that's where I really
25:57
Speaker 2: found myself at forty seven.
25:59
Speaker 1: So if if I kind of reflect back to you
26:03
Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong, it feels like in
26:06
Speaker 1: a way it impacted you to the degree that it
26:10
Speaker 1: shut off a lot of life, shut off your life
26:15
Speaker 1: from you because you didn't want to look at it,
26:18
Speaker 1: you didn't want to feel it. You kind of absorb
26:22
Speaker 1: yourself in anything but feeling and being present in.
26:28
Speaker 2: A sense, absolutely yeah, it was like I was maybe
26:33
Speaker 2: a sixteenth of the person and the potential that I
26:36
Speaker 2: could be when I found myself at rock bottom. That's
26:41
Speaker 2: very much what it felt like that. I'm really fortunate
26:45
Speaker 2: that my son said those words to me at the
26:47
Speaker 2: fire pit. I really feel like he saved my life
26:50
Speaker 2: in so many ways. Because once you make it out
26:53
Speaker 2: of that and you're living in that state of not
26:57
Speaker 2: feeling valued, not feeling your worthiness, is feeling so much
27:01
Speaker 2: shame from the experiences that transpired, I think once you
27:06
Speaker 2: get out of it, like I have you see joy,
27:10
Speaker 2: love worthiness, I'm not gonna hang out with shame anymore,
27:14
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. I let go my addictions. It's
27:18
Speaker 2: like everything changed. I lost weight.
27:20
Speaker 3: It was almost like I'm a totally different person.
27:22
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, damn, your son sounds pretty amazing. I mean,
27:27
Speaker 1: what do courageous observation? When he said that? What did
27:35
Speaker 1: that do to you? How did you take that?
27:38
Speaker 3: Well?
27:39
Speaker 2: Initially, you know, my daughter had approached me as well,
27:41
Speaker 2: and I wrote about that in the book. It was embarrassment, like, oh,
27:46
Speaker 2: you know, I'm such a wreck that my own family
27:50
Speaker 2: can see it. When I thought I was playing it
27:52
Speaker 2: off and that nobody would know.
27:54
Speaker 3: But originally it was.
27:56
Speaker 2: Like embarrassment, and then it felt very much like my
28:00
Speaker 2: a family discussion, like yeah, I am kind of lost,
28:03
Speaker 2: and you're right, I need to find.
28:04
Speaker 3: A way out. And I love them almost.
28:08
Speaker 2: More than I love myself, if that can If that
28:11
Speaker 2: makes sense, you know where I felt like initially, them
28:15
Speaker 2: believing in me and seeing me pulled me out of
28:18
Speaker 2: the hole so I can find self love again.
28:23
Speaker 1: Katie Man, your story is incredible. You're incredible, and I
28:28
Speaker 1: think you're so courageous to do what you did. I mean,
28:34
Speaker 1: when people mentioned psychedelics, I'm like.
28:38
Speaker 4: I feel the way you've felt initially, I'm like, WHOA,
28:42
Speaker 4: I've always been intrigued. I've always been definitely afraid that
28:46
Speaker 4: I am going to like lose control. And what do
28:50
Speaker 4: you say to people? Again, we're not promoting people go
28:54
Speaker 4: out there and do psychedelics, but just from your experience,
28:56
Speaker 4: what do you say to others survives out there who
29:00
Speaker 4: are maybe listening to this, certainly maybe.
29:04
Speaker 1: Have tried talk therapy and maybe they're intrigued about psychedelics.
29:08
Speaker 1: What do you say to them?
29:10
Speaker 2: Well, I think number one healing is a birthrate, and
29:12
Speaker 2: that we I think the world's hurting right now, and
29:16
Speaker 2: that means that individuals are also hurting, and so how
29:19
Speaker 2: can we together as a community find our way out?
29:22
Speaker 2: For me personally, what I noticed is because my experience
29:25
Speaker 2: was working with farmers in regional food business centers, that's
29:28
Speaker 2: my background, and really it's like I was trusting pharmaceuticals
29:35
Speaker 2: man made products more than I was trusting Earth and
29:38
Speaker 2: that ancient wisdom, for example. And I started to go, well,
29:42
Speaker 2: what if Earth actually holds the key and because it's
29:46
Speaker 2: not doesn't have a prescription label, that I don't trust it.
29:49
Speaker 2: And that felt like a really big epiphany for me.
29:53
Speaker 2: I do, in particular, feel like these medicines they call
29:57
Speaker 2: them medicines, that they changed my life. And there's a
30:01
Speaker 2: lot of research out there right now and discussion in
30:04
Speaker 2: terms of living it for you know, PTSD or veterans
30:08
Speaker 2: and or veterans, and so I think that's it's an
30:12
Speaker 2: opportunity to at least engage in a thoughtful discussion in
30:17
Speaker 2: terms of what can help us heal and find our
30:20
Speaker 2: way out of this what can sometimes feel like abyss,
30:24
Speaker 2: not only personally when you've had the childhood that I have,
30:27
Speaker 2: but also in our communities where there's you know, suicide
30:32
Speaker 2: and things that leave us questioning and if we could
30:35
Speaker 2: potentially do more to help people, and that's I'm not
30:39
Speaker 2: just referring to psychedelics, but there's got to be a
30:42
Speaker 2: way that we can help people recover and find their
30:45
Speaker 2: way home and get back the pieces of their soul
30:48
Speaker 2: that they're missing.
30:50
Speaker 1: Katy's book again, is called When the Universe Holds Your Back.
30:55
Speaker 1: Where can people learn more about you and your book? Yeah? Yeah,
30:59
Speaker 1: hold it up? Yeah yeah.
31:00
Speaker 2: So the book is called When the Universe Holds Your
31:02
Speaker 2: Hair Back, and it's on all major channels, so Amazon,
31:08
Speaker 2: it's on Audible, Spotify.
31:10
Speaker 3: So I did an audiobook too. I wanted to make
31:13
Speaker 3: sure to read that.
31:14
Speaker 1: Yeah wow wow, awesome. All right, Katie, And we'll have
31:18
Speaker 1: your website linked up here as well. It's called Peaceanfirehealing
31:23
Speaker 1: dot Com. Katie, thank you so much for your courage
31:29
Speaker 1: and your inspiration. I appreciate you being here.
31:31
Speaker 3: Thank you.
31:32
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. All right, We'll be in touch.
31:34
Speaker 2: Hey, take care bye,