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Monday Mini Classics: The Legacy of Hugh Hefner, Part 1 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, Sanny and Smantha.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff I never told you a production
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: by her Radio. And for today's classic, we are bringing
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: back part one of a two parter that we did.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: It was an unexpected two parter which happens often with
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Bridget about Hugh Hefner, and I felt that this was
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: important to bring back after our recent Sex and the
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: City happy hour that featured Hugh Hefner and how his
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: reputation has changed over the years. And it was a
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: big conversation and that's why it became two parter. So
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: please enjoy part one of this class episode. Hey, this
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steffone never told
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: you a production of iHeartRadio.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: And today we have a very special episode. I know
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: when we have episodes with Bridget and I feel like
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: this is a hint. We always talk about so many
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: things that we're always like, Okay, we have to come
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: back and we have to do an episode on it. Well,
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: today we are keeping our word and we have actually
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: brought back our fabulous friend.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I feel like she's.
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: An expert of all things like pop culture. I'm gonna
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: put that out there as part of your title Bridget,
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: I'll say that we are actually coming on a subject
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: that we were like, yes, we need to talk about it.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: So first and foremost, welcome Bridget.
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 1:57
  Speaker 5: I'm so excited to be back. And this was like
• 2:00
  Speaker 5: the last time I was chatting with you too, we
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: were like, oh, we should talk about this, and I'm
• 2:06
  Speaker 5: happy that we are actually doing it. I'm having that
• 2:09
  Speaker 5: it's actually here. It is, it's happening, we're doing it.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: It was too big. We could not do this.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: And what we are talking about, we're talking about the
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: infamy and overall impact of who the legend who I mean,
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: we can't deny this of Hugh Hefner. So before we start,
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: we're going to put this at the very top of
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: content warning, trigger warning, so many warnings, and I don't
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: even know if I'm going to put all of the
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: things I should be tagged in here, so maybe we'll
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: have to come back, But just be aware we're going
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: to talk about rape. We're talking about exploitation, death, suicide, murder, grooming,
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: drug use, trafficking, and even human trafficking. So I think
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of big conversations to be had just
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: you know, adult topics. So if you're listening to this
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: and you're like, oh, this is a great listen on
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: a comute while I'm going to pick up my kids
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: and you have your kids in the car, I would
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: probably pause, definitely, because it's going to be explicit. I
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: do think the lessons that have been left in the
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: aftermath of Hugh Hefner and what he has done should
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: be talked about for generations of many marginalized people. I
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: think it's a big thing. And whether you want to
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: call it a warning label essentially, like you want to
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: warn others about practices like this, or whether you want
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: to talk about it as a historical context of how
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: it really influenced us, This is a conversation to be had.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: So Bridget and I have two different perspectives, right, I
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: think we just talked about this earlier.
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I agree that this is not the
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: episode to be in your car with the kids. But
• 3:44
  Speaker 5: what's funny is that so preparing for this episode was
• 3:48
  Speaker 5: honestly almost like a casthartic emotional personal experience because I
• 3:52
  Speaker 5: don't know about y'all, but I watched the show Girls
• 3:55
  Speaker 5: next Door on e about what's going on on the
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: Playboy when I was in like junior high, high school.
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: And so what's interesting to me is that.
• 4:06
  Speaker 5: That show took great pains to make the Playboy lifestyle
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: look kind of like wholesome and squeaky clean and fun
• 4:13
  Speaker 5: for the whole family.
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: So I don't think I was the only.
• 4:17
  Speaker 5: Junior high or high school girl watching that show as
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: a youth. But now the conversation really kind of looking
• 4:24
  Speaker 5: back and being like, well, what was going on in
• 4:25
  Speaker 5: that house? That conversation is very mature and adults and
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: has very mature themes, but it's so interesting how it
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: was framed us wholesome and squeaky clean then and now
• 4:36
  Speaker 5: the actual reality is like, oh no, this was not wholesome,
• 4:39
  Speaker 5: nor it could not have been less squeaky clean. And
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: it's interesting going back and looking to see, like how
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: big of an impact that had on probably a lot
• 4:46
  Speaker 5: of us.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Right, I agree with you. I will say, as I
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: was going to ask this.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: Question to both of y'all, when did you learn about
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: or have your first encounter with Playboy magazine specifically or Playboy?
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Did y'all ever have one? Or what did you become
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: aware of it?
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: I have never encountered a Playboy magazine. I think that
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: I was aware of it. Surprised to know one through
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: like pop culture of Hugh Heffner's appeared in a bunch
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: of like The Simpsons and things like that. I think
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: that was my knowledge of it, was that I was
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: aware that it was a big thing.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: There are like multiple.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: Instances of movies where women dress up as like Playboy bunnies.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: I think that was much more my realm of knowing
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: what Playboy and all about Hugh Hefner was, his cameos,
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: his multiple cameos he did in several things, and then
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: I mean it was just embedded in so much of
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: our pop culture for a while, so like I knew
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: about it, but I never actually.
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: Seen a Playboy magazin or anything like that. I just
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: knew it was a big.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Deal, right right, Yeah, I think what about you weregid?
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Similarly to Annie, I can't think of a I
• 6:13
  Speaker 5: can't conjure up a memory of me like holding a
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: Playboy magazine or stumbling across a Playboy magazine. But also
• 6:20
  Speaker 5: I can't think of a time when I was not
• 6:23
  Speaker 5: aware of it in the culture. And I think it
• 6:26
  Speaker 5: is such an interesting point Annie about the cameos on
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: family friendly shows and things like that.
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: How and the reference is.
• 6:34
  Speaker 5: How that creates a culture where it's commonplace, where I
• 6:37
  Speaker 5: can't even remember a time where it wasn't something that
• 6:40
  Speaker 5: was on my radar. But I yet I have no
• 6:42
  Speaker 5: idea the first time that it actually was on my radar.
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: It was just sort of always there.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: Right Interestingly, like for me, I guess maybe coming from
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: South Korea, like literally being born and raised, I wasn't
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: really aware of all that. I came into the US,
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: and I knew porn existed, obviously, that was a thing.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: I knew that there were probably there were magazines. And
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember when the big lawsuit happened in
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: which uh they made all of those types of magazines
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: be behind like either dark or black plastic, because it
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: was I think in my lifetime.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it was in my lifetime.
• 7:17
  Speaker 5: I can confirm that it was because I have clear
• 7:19
  Speaker 5: memories of going into stores and being like, ooh, what's
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: that magazine right where they were.
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: Not so stuff like that was fairly new, like at
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: the point like oh okay. But I also do remember
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: I have a very clear like I don't think it
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: was a Playboy magazine. I can't remember because I've now
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: started to use some of like things that I've seen
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: on TVs, like is that my memory or is that
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: a TV? But I do have a very clear memory
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: of a friend of mine when I was in I
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: want to say, the second or third grade, in which
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: her dad, oh like had a subscription to the pay
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: per view channel of Playboy magazine, like specifically their channel,
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: and like turning it on because you know, when you're
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: at like each other's house, you're doing naughty things.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: You're like, oh, well, look at this, look what my
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: dad has.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: And I was like officially scared of the man after
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: the back actually, but that has a whole different thing
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: of trauma for me.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: But like he like it was there.
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: It existed in our movie, were like, wow, people watch
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: this because I came from a very like conservative Christian home,
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: so none of that existed in my world. So to
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: go to someone else's house. And by the way, he
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: was a very revered doctor in our town. I don't
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: think I told anybody I was very good a keeping
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: sickcrest apparently, but anyway, but that was kind of like
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: my first interaction of what this was. And I was like, oh,
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: and this is when they were and we're going to
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: talk a little more about all the things started doing porn,
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: which they always denied was a thing for them, Like
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: that's something that they were like, Oh, we're not poor magazine.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: We are a gentleman's magazine, which yes, we're going to
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: get into. But that's one of my first memories of like,
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: this is a big deal and what is this and
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: the level that they had, especially in a man's world,
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: and my view on the men the man after say that,
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: which is a whole different conversation.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: I mean, so, it's so funny that your first like
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: your first interaction with Playboy was actual like pornography that
• 9:12
  Speaker 5: was like watched on a channel that it's like a
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: pornographic channel, because I don't think I could tell you
• 9:20
  Speaker 5: that I understood that Playboy produced pornography until quite a
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: bit later, like.
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: In junior high.
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: I don't know if how it was in y'all's school,
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: but like you, people had the Playboy symbol on there,
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: like like girls smoked around with the Playboy symbol.
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: On their shirt, right, it was it was a common
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: thing for the white girls to like tan.
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: And then like I guess I don't know if they
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: were like putting like a cutout, it was a different
• 9:47
  Speaker 5: to almost make it look like a tattoo in their skin.
• 9:50
  Speaker 5: And so it was such a big part of the culture,
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: but yet removed from the pornography. And it's so funny
• 9:58
  Speaker 5: that for you it was like, oh, it was my
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: first interaction with it was like that's photography.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Leg and you're a dirty dude. That's my memory.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: But yeah, So this is, as we've already said, we
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: are talking about the legacy of Hugh Hefner. When I
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: say legacy, we're putting this in like all of it's
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: like good and bad. We're not talking about uh again,
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: I think before, even in the last ten years, we
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: didn't even talk about him as a a like a
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: like a bad dude essentially, like people really wanted to
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: play out his all these things that he did for
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: society and for our culture and not really talking about
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: what was happening in the depth of it and what
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: he was truly truly doing, like this was all so
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: self serving.
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: Oh my god.
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: So I know we're gonna get to it, and I
• 10:53
  Speaker 5: don't want to derail us, but plus like plus plus
• 10:57
  Speaker 5: plus a thousand to that and that's the thing that
• 11:00
  Speaker 5: I want to like. My opinion on the topic is,
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: I think that is very much with intention. I think that,
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: you know, when I that's one of the reasons why
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: I'm obsessed with reading the memoirs and listening to podcasts
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: of the women who were part of this orbit is
• 11:15
  Speaker 5: I think from the free speech crusades and racial justice
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: crusades and talking about sexual liberation and feminism, to the
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: public PR culture image of like, oh, I'm a nice
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: grandpa in a robe and this is all very squeaky
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: clean and like it's all wholesome, I think all of
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: that was manufactured with intention for us the public to
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: not think about Hugh Hefner and his legacy in a
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: way that is frankly realistic to what it actually looked like.
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: I think that, you know, and so I don't want
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: to make it seem like he didn't do these things
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: for free speech and racial equality. But when people are
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: talking about like, oh, it's complicated legacy, I even think
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: that doesn't get at what we're actually talking about, which
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: is using the dark arts of PR to obscure wrongdoing,
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: some of which is criminal, you know.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: Right, right, And I think we have to put this.
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: I was saying earlier that Bridget and I have kind
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: of a two different perspective because she has done the
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: intellectual thing and read all the things, while I went
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: down the true crowding level of watching the Secrets of
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: Playboy or the Secrets of the Mansion on A and E.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: None of this is a sponsor because I was like,
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: all right, I'm not gonna read books, but I'll watch this.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: But the amount of shock that I had watching this
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: and really like having to cleanse my soul after the
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: fact of like, oh, everything's the worst. So with all
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: of that, he has never been convicted of anything. So
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: we need to go ahead and put this here. When
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: we were talking about this, we have to say that
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: all of this is alleged because nothing has been proved
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: in the court or any way like outside of these
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: people's experiences. So we are doing that. But you also
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: know here that we believe women in a story. So
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: all of that to say, we're trying to put like
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: trying to frame it in a way of like, this
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: is what was told in these things, whether it's the memoir,
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: whether it's biographies from whatever, or whether it is this documentary. Yes,
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: at this point we have to say it's alleged for
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: the documentary in itself. It was released after his death,
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: and there are a lot of people who were very upset,
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: and they're very upset at the women who are writing
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: writing these memoirs. Those moments I was screaming at the
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: TV from some of the people defending Hugh Efner. So
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: I did have moments of me like you are full.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Of sh oh and I really don't.
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: Like that, my God, like can we get it? So
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: like that is a thing that I both from the
• 13:48
  Speaker 5: memoirs and from what I've watched at the doc like
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: how many people, many of whom were like on the
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: doll or involved in some way, are like how dare
• 13:56
  Speaker 5: these women try to tarnish his legacy? But I just
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: want to be like you would say that you were
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: being paid, you were part of this, Like it's like.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: You would say that, right.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Part of this thing was like Annie, you might not
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: want to watch this is super gross.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: I did get a text from Samantha that was like, oh,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: maybe don't do this, so I read about it.
• 14:25
  Speaker 6: I did the in between yes and documentary.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: She researched in that way, she's like without having to
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: listen to everything that is happening according to because they
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: which the documentary itself, I have to go ahead and
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: put this in there. For the first few episodes, I
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: was like, Oh, this is interesting because they did it
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: where they like had like playbacks or you know, reenactments.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: But then like towards the end of them, they had
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: a journalist who was on a Playboy as well come
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: in and do an actual sit down interview with people.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: So it was very like shocking, like the way they
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: decided to do this. It wasn't like an aftermath thing
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: is she like she just sat and talked with different
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: people about their different experiences, And it was an interesting
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: dichotomy of how they decided to do that documentary. Just
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: on a like overall review of the documentary, So for.
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: People wondering I picked up on exactly what you're talking about.
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: There were like some editorial choices that I was like.
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: Oh, interesting, okay, this is how we're doing and like
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: it is a little jarring, I guess how I felt.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was like, wait, okay, okay, but with that,
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: we're going to do a very brief talk about who
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: he was, who Hugh Hefner was, and he was actually
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: born April ninth, nineteen twenty six, in Chicago to a
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: very conservative family which he talked about quite a lot,
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: who had hopes of him being a missionary, which I
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: was like, huh, that's sounds about right. He served in
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: the military for a couple of years as a writer
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: of the military newspaper, so he's good at this. Went
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: to school at the University of Illinois at a Bonanno
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: Champaign with a bachelor's in arts and in psychology and
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: creative writing and art.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: He worked as a copywriter for Esquire.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: Which I was like, huh, but eventually left to start
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: Playboy magazine, which he was going to originally name Stag Party,
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: which when I out hear things like that when I'm
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: like the original idea, I was like, yeah, that was
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: not gonna work.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Stag Party.
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: I'm glad you rebranded because stag Party is just not
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: a good name.
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: It's not a good brands.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: Such a different connotation too, like very like Playboy is
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: weird enough, but like stag Parties, like you're excluding women altogether,
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: so what's the point, right, But it's anyway, And it
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: was published in nineteen fifty three, and I think We
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: actually had a recent conversation about this, right when we
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: were talking about the fact that the first cover was
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: featured Marilyn Monroe, who never actually consented or approved of this.
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: Yes, and she I would argue that, like she was
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: not appropriately Like she had done a photo shoot for
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: a calendar company. The person who ran that calendar company
• 17:06
  Speaker 5: was like, Oh, nobody will ever see these photos.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: It's fine, you know.
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: So she believed that Hugh Hefner then bought those images
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: without her consent and put them on the cover of Playboy,
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: and like that became me a big part of.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: The Playboy empire.
• 17:19
  Speaker 5: So I would actually argue that the entire legacy is
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: kind of has its foundation in trickery, coercion, and economic
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: exploitation of women's sexuality.
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: You know, I don't begrudge anybody.
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: Who wants to take off their clothes and be photographed
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: for money, But I would not argue that Marilyn Nrue
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: was not properly compensated or could not consent to the
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: way that image would go on to be used. This
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: came up in the episode that we did around the
• 17:45
  Speaker 5: Lena image was a Playboy model whose image went on
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: to like really shape the Internet, and I think we
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: see this again and again with like the foundation being
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: the exploitation of women, right, Yeah, As in fact, in
• 17:58
  Speaker 5: a biography dot com article, they talked about how she
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: was given fifty dollars too, and she did this before
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: all of her fame happened, because she needed to do
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: a car payment, supposedly, and she was like, all right,
• 18:09
  Speaker 5: as long as it's not going to show my face,
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: it blurs my image out great. And then this company
• 18:14
  Speaker 5: bought it for nine hundred dollars, and then he Hefner
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: came through and bought the rights with five hundred dollars
• 18:19
  Speaker 5: and then used it. And like, there's this whole conversation
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: about the fact that he had never met Marilyn Monroe,
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: as in fact he alleges, and no one has verified
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: that he had a phone conversation with her about it.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Again, we don't know that for sure.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: And also he bought the plot next to her grave, yeah,
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: because he felt like he had some kind of I'm
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: going to say ownership of her, but more so in
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: his refrain was like we have a connection.
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: I read a quote of him talking about this and
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: he was like, this is a paraphrase but it's something
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: along the lines of like, I can't imagine anything sweeter
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: than an my smitting my eternity resting on top of
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: Marilyn Monroe.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Gross.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: Gross, I will say, I did not look into the fact.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: Do we know did he actually do this?
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: Yes, he is real, Yeah, that's been verifact.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: No, No, I mean he buried like he's actually married.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: Yes, oh, or Marilyn Monroe, she's been so taken advantage
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: of even after death.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: No, leave Norma Jean alone anyway.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: Okay, but just other like little facts, because I'm not
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: doing a big long thing if Hefner was arrested in
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixty three for promoting obscene literature, but the case
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: ended with a hung jury, so nothing happened with that.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: Hefner eventually gave up the seat as being the face
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: of Playboy to his son Cooper in twenty twelve, who,
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: by the way, is very loud about saying nothing of
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: none of this is true. All of these allegations aren't
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: true when unfounded. And I believe he has actually four children,
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: two by his first wife he married before Playboy. I
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: believe he married before he went into military. And Cooper
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: wasn't one of those, but his daughter, Christie Hefner, was
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: one of like I believe she was some kind of
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: big CEO or key player in the nineteen nineties.
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: Yes, like she shows up in his close sort of
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: protecting his legacy.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: Right when they originally brought her in. And like many
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: companies today, they were trying to show face us like, see,
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: we're about women. We want to put women in leadership roles.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Here's my daughter.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Look at her, who shut down many things and mad
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: sure women suffered allegedly.
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: Allegedly put that in here.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: And then he died in twenty seventeen at the age
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: of ninety one. I mean, people celebrate him. And I
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: did find this article because all of the articles, if
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: you put Playboy now, it's all about these documentaries and memoirs,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: which I'm kind of glad about. But this was an
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: interesting rite of Hefner in twenty eleven, while he was
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: still alive, in The New York Times by Charles McGrath
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: titled How hef Got his Groove Back Why They got
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: to still Things Anyway, it says Hefner is a little odd, certainly,
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: but not a sleesbag. He has none of Bob Guccione's
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: oiliness or Larry Flint's leering vulgarity. His manner is open
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: and direct, and his language is as clean as a
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: Midwestern rotarians. By his own lights. Having purged himself of
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: the shame and hypocrisy that is a part of most
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: Americans sexual baggage, he leads a life that is exceptionally
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: honest and moral. It's also a life that is exceptionally
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: well documented. He has been written about so often and
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: for so long that in interviews now he tends to
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: recycle himself, saying the same things over and over again,
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: not in a bored wrote fashion, but as if they
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: had just occurred to him. He complains a lot about
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: America's puritanical, contradictory attitudes towards sex, and likes to say
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: that he is a quote, one eyed man in a
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: blind world. He also thinks that most men would kill
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: to be in his place. I feel like the only
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: true line to that is that last line.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: I don't even think.
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: That's true because when you read, because when you read
• 22:08
  Speaker 5: some of these memoirs, it's like it actually doesn't sound
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: that great.
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: For anybody who was in that mansion, it's probably.
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: Going the best for hef but it doesn't even sound
• 22:16
  Speaker 5: like it's great.
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: For him in some regards.
• 22:18
  Speaker 5: And I will say, like, you're so spot on that
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: this is all lies. And having read what some of
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: the women have to say about what it was like
• 22:25
  Speaker 5: to be required to have sex with him nightly, he
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: is not someone who sounds like he is free of
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: sexual baggage at all. Is not someone who is like
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: sexually free and like a libertine.
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: If you read these.
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: Accounts of what it was like to have sex with
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: him and be required to do so regularly for your
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: room and board, he sounds like somebody who had quite
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: a few sexual hang ups that were playing out in
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: the bedroom.
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: So even that's not true. Even this, even this.
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: Very carefully manufactured persona of how he was as a
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: lover or as a sexual person, is a house of lies.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Right in that article they do say.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: Because he talks this is in the era of the
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: Girl's next Door and how it really did do a lot.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: Because I'm with you, Ritchard, when you were talking about earlier,
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: I watched this thinking that it was a cute show.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: It was like, oh, this is like the real housewife
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: of so and so like in this timeframe and really
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: set up these three playful girls who all like had
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: different characters to play, and then him in the background
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: as just being that wise old man taking care of
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: his girls literally, like that's what it seemed, and they
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: all made sure that it felt like they were all
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: immature and doing things and he was keeping them in
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: line or at least keeping them safe.
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: But he talks about the fact that what did these
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: girls get out of it? And he says a mentor
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: at one point, a friend, and then just the key
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: to success.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: So again, but that of course plays it back on
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: to the women.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: First of all, a mentor. That's I don't that's so.
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: Deeply insulting when you when you read the way that
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: the women describe their own experiences, that's just not true.
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: You know, A key keys to success? I guess it's
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: when we were when I was like kind of preparing
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: and thinking about this episode. That's something that I'm really
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: grappling with and I don't have the answer there of
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: Like a lot of these women, their association with Playboy
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: is what gave them public attention and public profiles and platforms.
• 24:29
  Speaker 5: So the question is like, is that success, is that
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: a successful life? Is that a full life? If these
• 24:36
  Speaker 5: women are happy, more power to them. That's great. But
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: then you read these memoirs and many of them did
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: not sound happy.
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: Many of them did not seem to be happy with
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: what was going on.
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: And they thread that runs from all of the memoirs
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: that I have read is like I didn't feel like
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: I had a lot of other options.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: I needed a place.
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: To live, I needed money, whatever, whatever, And like I
• 24:56
  Speaker 5: think it comes down to, like, like what is success
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: as defined by our culture and defined by each and
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: every one of us, Like I don't.
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: Know where I sort of.
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: Stand about like whether or not this was something that
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: was actually good for these women.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Right Yeah, And I think that's something I grapple with
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: a lot too. Is you know, for one, that there's
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: no he was.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Not a mentor.
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: I just refuse to believe that.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: But it's like I've been I've seen this happen where
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: it's a man who will be like I can get you,
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: I can get you to the top, kid like making
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: you all these promises like I can you will find
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: success with me and being feeling like Okay, this is
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: what I have to do to get success, and just
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: the systemic issues with that. But I also think like
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: we've been talking about this a lot. We just did
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: an episode about Bumble and what their ad campaign that
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: was men Bumble.
• 25:58
  Speaker 6: Yes, it's I feel there.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Is this thing that is more nuanced than people are
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: trying to make it where it's like, oh, you're sexually empowered,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: you want to do this, right, but it's still men
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: like manipulating women into doing this thing. And if that's
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: what you want to do, more power to you. But
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's so often presented as Oh, I'm
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: going to empower you so that men can look at you.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, there's a lot of questions of ethics.
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah, when I was looking into all of the different
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: things that people say is part of Hugh Hefner's legacy
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: around things like equality and racial equality, Like it's like, oh,
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: he had the first trans playmate in his magazine, he
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: had the first black playmate, and then a black woman
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: who was photographed on a cover of Playboy with an afro,
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: And I understand why people are talking about this in
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: a in the frame of equality. Like when Hefner died,
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: Caroline Tulakasi said that, you know, she was the first
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: transgender woman in the magazine and she tweeted rip U
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: Heffnerd thank you for allowing me to share my story
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: and for your support and platform that helped my campaign
• 27:13
  Speaker 5: her trans rights and visibility. So I get that, but
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: it makes me a bit sad that the equality that
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: we're talking about is having underrepresented people being served up
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: to be sexually consumed in this way, and that part
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: and parcel of that with Playboy has always been giving
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: the women less economically, right, Like even that first story
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: that you that you shared Sam about Marilyn Monroe, the
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: person who got the least amount of money in that
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: exchange was Marilyn Monroe.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: Everybody else was getting more money for her body. And
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: so yeah, I.
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: Just it is it is complicated in that is that
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: really equality?
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: And in the in the Marilyn Monroe in that article
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: at biography dot com, she talks about the fight that
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: they've made millions of dollar off of me and I
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: have not seen a sin, Like she literally talks about
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: the fact that she knows how much money that they
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: have made off of this, and how he really did
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: advertise me like first time news that with people have
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: talked about never seen like he made sure to blow
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: this up in a way that it was going to
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: sell and launch him into being a millionaire. But I
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: find it interesting that when we come back, because at
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: the end, I do want to have this conversation because
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: Playboy Hugh Hefner touts this whole ideal of allowing women
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: to be a part of these conversations and being whatever
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: they want to be through this access, and it's all
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: about sexual liberation and for women as well. We want
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: to give you the freedom to choose and enjoy sex
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: and say that you like sex. But when it comes
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: down to that being the fact that women have to
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: pay in order to be able to say that, but
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: they're not able to say that because they can't say no. Like,
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: there's so many conversations to that, And at what point,
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: in what platform is there a possibility Is there a
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: true way that women can be sexually liberated where they
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: have all of the power to have the consent that
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: they deserve and to be able to profit off it
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: if they want to, Like, do they have equality in
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: a field that has been abused and used to abuse.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Women for so long?
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: Like there's so much like depth to that because they're like,
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: we want it to be and Playboy made money off
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: of that idea, right, So where do we get that?
• 29:25
  Speaker 5: And I would argue, like that is a great question
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: and a great conversation to have, But I can't look
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: at the legacy of Playboy and say that they were
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: actually offering women that in a meaningful way, right, Like,
• 29:38
  Speaker 5: just let's look at some of the things that we
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: know about what went on in the mansion, you.
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: Know, right, selling pictures of women that were taken without
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: their consent.
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: In all the memoirs, the women talk about how they
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: did not know, but there was cameras in Hugheffner's bedroom,
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: and so in these required nightly orgies, they didn't know
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: that they were being filmed.
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: And if your whole thing, if your whole.
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: Platform is around sexual freedom, sexual liberation, that has to
• 30:06
  Speaker 5: that can't happen if there's also coercion and a lack
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: of informed consent, those things cannot co exist. And so
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: if you are not getting consent from women, and women
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: are being coerced into things that they don't know that
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: they're doing and certainly they are consenting to, there is
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: no sexual liberation.
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: You're selling a lie. And so I'm not going to
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: say that there is not a model.
• 30:26
  Speaker 5: Where women can truly have like meaningful sexual liberation that
• 30:32
  Speaker 5: also does not involve like coercion or exploitation or something.
• 30:36
  Speaker 5: I'm not gonna say that, but I can certainly look
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: at this model and say this wasn't in it.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: You know, right, absolutely absolutely.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: In fact, we're going to talk about the fact that, yes, overall,
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: Hugh Hefner's legacy is a roller coaster and doing a
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: steady decline.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: And I think we're all here for that.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: From an NPR article by Scott Simon, he writes, Hugh
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: Hefner saw the sexual revolution as a companion to the
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: movements of sovil rights and free speech. But this leading
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: figure of the sexual revolution couldn't see the feminist revolution.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: Heff went from being acclaimed an icon of cool to
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: being denounced and oppressive pick and he also goes on
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: to say that Hefner's reputation for many of the women
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: in Chicago was actually pretty good for some. He says,
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: when I was growing up in Chicago, the formidable women
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: who were my mother's friends considered Playboy a good place
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: to work for a single woman. Women at the Playboy
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: Club were well paid, got chauffeured home in cabs and customers, stars, politicians,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: even it was rumored spoiled by Middle Eastern princes were
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: thrown out if they weren't gentlemen. My Auntie Abba trained
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: playboy bunnies. When Gloria Steinem and others said the bunny
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: costume which wrenched a woman's bodice upwards so her chest
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: resembled ice cream scoops or exhibit a in the way
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: Hugh Hefner made women into idealize sex objects, my Auntie
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: Abba sniffed and said, well, they wear some pretty ridiculous
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: costumes at the Metropolitan Opera too, So it was interesting.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: And he is not in favor, Like, he's not talking highly.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: He's just talking about what he had experienced as a
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: child in Chicago who had connections. And you know what
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: I will say from the documentary, it starts off that
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: way in this conversation. And of course when we talk
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: about the Playboy clubs, the legacy of the clubs and
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: the magazines, though they were related, were still two different
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: money makers, right, Because I think it's interesting to note
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: that as Hugh Hefner was like, I'm about equal equality,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: I am about all these things. The little ratio of
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: marginalized people in the magazine is.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Very low, like real real, real, real, real low, right, real.
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: Low, And yet he's like a celebration, like, yes, it's
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: super low.
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: It's super white, super conventional.
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: And it's like, oh well, he did have a black
• 32:53
  Speaker 5: woman with an afro on the cover, right.
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: Once or twice, Like it's like, how is it this low?
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: And you're also being like heralded as a pair of.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: Gone of racial quality, right, And just like the level
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: of like how many black women were featured is like
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: single digits, and one of them happened to be LaToya Jackson,
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: who was there as a celebrity essentially, And the way
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: he showed I think some of his diversity is hiring
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: them at clubs, is what it sounds like. So they
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: weren't necessarily featured on the magazine. You weren't good enough
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: for that, but you're good enough to make me money
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: this way.
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: Oh yes, that is That is a tension that still
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: existed and still ran as.
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: An undercurrent through a lot of them.
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: The memoirs that I've read of like parts of the pape,
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: the Playboy Enterprise, or these coveted things like getting a cover,
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: being a playmate. So it's like, Oh, I'm good enough
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: to like be at your trashy parties and like make
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: you money in some ways, but in other ways I'm
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: not good enough. Like like that dynamic is very much
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: an undercurrent of the Playboy, the Playboy that we were
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: watching like in the Girls next Door era too.
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: And you know, we're going to kind of talk about
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: a little bit of what he has legacies are and
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: when these contain. And one of the big things that
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: people always spout is about free speech.
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: Oh yes, so this the free speech thing definitely is
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: a kind of a part of his legacy. And as
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: you mentioned him, like part of it is because as
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: a person who makes and distributes pornography, he had to
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: defend his own work in his own business from censorship
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: and like government censorship and all of that. Him and
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: his ex wife established the Hugh M. Hefner First Amendment Award,
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: which is still given out today. It creates it which
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: I think I find like very funny. It started in
• 34:34
  Speaker 5: nineteen seventy nine to honor individuals who have made significant
• 34:38
  Speaker 5: contributions in the vital effort to protect and enhance First
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: Amendment rights for Americans. According to the BBC, in nineteen
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: fifty four, he won a legal battle against the United
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: States Postal Service when the Postmaster General, Arthur Summerfield, refused
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: to deliver copies of Playboy.
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: On the grounds that it was obscene.
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: Hefner told the court, we don't think Postmaster Summerfield has
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: any business editing magazines. We think you should stick to
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: delivering the mail. And Playboy actually won that case, right.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: And didn't he he had the again, we talked about
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: the fact that the mess Act which happened, and one
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: of the big whistleblowers is one of the people in
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: the documentary.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Uh. She was a higher up.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: She was an original Playboy Bunny. She was on the centerfold. Uh,
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: she was the first Latina uh Playboy Bunny to be featured.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: And then she just like went up the ranks in
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: the corporation, really thinking she was going to be doing
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: something like she was so excited that she was a
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: part of something that she can really work for women's rights.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: But at one point she finally had enough after so
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: much abuse. I believe with the murder of one of
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: the Playboy uh playmates of the year, I believe, Uh,
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: she kind of just had enough and she couldn't figure
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: out how to help the bunnies, as you said, or
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: the models. And so she came out as a whistle blower,
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: testifying in front of the court about the acts that
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: were happening on the Playboy executives and that Hugh Hefner
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: was very aware. And this included things that didn't necessarily
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: happen in the mansion but happened under their watch, whether
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: it was at these clubs or whether it was at
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: these like they had like lodges which I was like, oh,
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: I didn't know that existed, Or they had like incidents
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: where they were sending models out and it wasn't actually
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: for a modeling job.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: It's literally trafficking them out totally.
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: So this is something that I want to like be
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: super clear about, which is that people really talk a
• 36:38
  Speaker 5: lot about Hugh Hefner as this champion of free speech,
• 36:42
  Speaker 5: but the women in his orbit tell a very different
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: tale about the actual role of free speech for women
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: in his empire, right, Like it kind of almost reminds
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: me of Elon Musk, who is like, oh, free speech,
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: free speech, and less you're somebody who works for me,
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: and you're the speech that you are talking about is
• 36:58
  Speaker 5: starting a union right. So, Sondra Theodore, a former Hefner
• 37:02
  Speaker 5: girlfriend who was accused Hefner of grooming young women and
• 37:05
  Speaker 5: keeping tapes on them to silence them, said, there is
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: no freedom of speech in the world of Playboy. Playmates
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: have been kept quiet since the beginning. Unless you're singing
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: his or Playboy's praises. Of course, no way the celebration
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: can go interrupted. It's a farce. She added. This was
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: after Hugh Hefner died and everybody was rushing to be like, oh, well,
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: he was a real champion of free speech, and yeah,
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: I just don't. I don't believe that you should be
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: lifting up somebody as a champion of free speech, even
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: if they do have awards, even if they did have
• 37:35
  Speaker 5: to defend themselves, if they are maintaining and benefiting and
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: profiting from an empire that relies on silencing women's speech
• 37:45
  Speaker 5: to do that, those two things are completely and deeply
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: incompatible to me, right.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: Right, there's the majority of what Playboy was representing was
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: incompatible to.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Just human rights.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: Let's just be very glad like the overall freedoms and
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: like protections of individuals point blank. So yeah, what I'm
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: talking about is actually the mis Report, which was published
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty six. It was under the Ronald Reagan,
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: which I hate him, I don't love him, but like
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: the things did happen, but it was done under his administration,
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: and they did.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: They went after.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: Playboy in which I think like twenty three several like
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: convenience store chains stopped publishing and Playboy countersuit saying that
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: they had lost millions of dollars in revenue. And also,
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: you're taking away the freedom of speech from retailers as
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: well as individuals who want to purchase these magazines, so
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: so many things, and this kind of led way to
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: what I was talking about with the covering up of
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: the magazines.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: All you could see this as a title and you
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: can't look at it.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: And I think eventually we'll eventually lead to like the ratings,
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: the TVMA type of things as well.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: But this is like something that he went after.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: And because he did go after this, people were like, yeah,
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: he's definitely championing for our eyes, not a capitalist wanting
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: all his money back, because again it did hurt him
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: pretty badly. But during that time is when we saw
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: one insider come out and talk about why Playboy is
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: not what you think is not about this, and these
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: are things about like harassment and doing under the rest
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: talking about because we're talking about this later, like women
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: being drugged, women being pressured, because we know that several
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: of the models talked about the fact that they came
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: in with the strong understanding that all they would do
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: is show their movies there, show some breasts and that's fine,
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: and then eventually being talked into or co warced or
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: told that they would not get this job unless they
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: were fully, fully naked, and so many things. And then
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: I know, like I fleeve with most of them, they
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: were all filmed, and they were told and promised that
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: they none of this would be publish. It was just
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: for them, It was just for our works, and everything
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: is quote unquote going on the cutting room floor. We
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: just want to do a behind the scenes type of
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: very classy, which I love it that that's what they
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: talk too, is like it's very classy. Is a girl
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: next door type of shoes, so don't worry about it.
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it goes back to that manufactured, pr
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: crafted image of this being somehow wholesome as opposed to
• 40:24
  Speaker 5: what it actually is, which is the exploitation of women,
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: both sexually and economically that is being maintained by surveillance, coercion, lies,
• 40:36
  Speaker 5: and drugs. I almost feel like if that was the
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: kind of enterprise that they were running and profiting from.
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: Like Okay, well that's what it is.
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: But I guess where I sort of take issue more
• 40:48
  Speaker 5: broadly is like why did we all have to believe
• 40:51
  Speaker 5: that it was really wholesome and like good for the women?
• 40:53
  Speaker 6: Right?
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: Why can't it just be what it is?
• 40:55
  Speaker 5: The bit about where we all come into it of like, oh,
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: we should all be like seeing the behind the scene
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: and like thinking it's really like.
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: Actually good for the girls.
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: That's what I kind of tick issue with, or you know,
• 41:05
  Speaker 5: seeing the way that these women who spoke up about
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: what they saw, like you were just talking about Sam,
• 41:10
  Speaker 5: like seeing them be silenced and then also having to
• 41:15
  Speaker 5: praise you Hefner as a paragona free speech, right, Like
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: that's what I can abide.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And as you were saying, people who were
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: wanted to tell their story were being told you can't
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: tell this story and being silenced by you Hefner and
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: his team.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: Another voice that was in that documentary Jennifer Sagnor, who
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: wrote this tell all book about her childhood, which she
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: largely spent at the Playboy Mansion in the nineties and
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: two thousands. Her dad was Hefner's live in doctor. Like
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: kind of a doctor. It sounds like kind of a doctor,
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: feel good, kind of sitch. But she wrote a memoir
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: about the things that she had seen and about that experience.
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: She wrote, quote, I was silent when my memoir Playground,
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: came out. I believe there is truth to the hypocrisy
• 41:56
  Speaker 5: that should be noted by all. The irony of being
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: silenced by the being of the First Amendment demonstrates the
• 42:02
  Speaker 5: true nature of our culture and abuse of power in
• 42:05
  Speaker 5: our society. And her book was all about like really
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: gross things like grooming of underage girls, girls being given drugs,
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: sometimes without their knowledge. I heard memoir Allegen's behavior that
• 42:17
  Speaker 5: is criminal, and she was silenced by Hugh Hefner when
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: she tried to speak out about this in her book.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: Right, her story alone in the documentary was horrifying.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: I was very confused from job. Like she was there.
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: She's moved into the Playboy Mage and had her own
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: room at the age of seven, like her dad brought
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: her there. She talked about how she would sit in
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: Hugh Hefner's lap during their game days, and she really
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: saw him as a father figure, really thought he was
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: so amazing. And then at the age of fifteen, she
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: realized she was kind of infatuated with one of the
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: playmates who happened to be Hugh Hefner's girlfriend at the time,
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: and they started having a relationship. And by the way,
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: this woman was an adult I believe she was twenty
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: twenty one. Yes, she was also groomed into that. But
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: they started a sexual relationship, and in that she alleges
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: that Hugh Hefner tried to get the girlfriend, brought her
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: into his bedroom and then they started playing about I
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: apologize and the girl, the girlfriend started crying and ran out,
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: and he allegedly said to her, well, I guess this
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: is not happening now. I can't do this while she's crying.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: So he was ready to have a sexual relationship. And
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: this was when she was at the age of seventeen
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: with someone she considered him being a father figure and
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: his best friend's daughter.
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, there is a lot of blurring, like you like
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: you were saying earlier that like, oh, what do these
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: girls get out of it, Oh, well, a mentor figure.
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: And it's like, well, if you're having sex with your men,
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: Like there's a lot of blurring of roles here where
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: if you can you really have a mentor and be
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: having sex with him, should you be having sex with
• 44:02
  Speaker 5: somebody that you said that you considered a father figure.
• 44:05
  Speaker 5: And also if you're like not of the age of consent,
• 44:08
  Speaker 5: you obviously shouldn't. Like that's you know, a different thing.
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: But yeah, a lot of what was it sounds like
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: a lot of what was going on in the house
• 44:14
  Speaker 5: was this kind of real blurring of lines and boundaries
• 44:19
  Speaker 5: and the line of consent and legality, and it kind
• 44:23
  Speaker 5: of being sold back to us as like not this
• 44:26
  Speaker 5: big of a deal, like a fun party and environment
• 44:29
  Speaker 5: as opposed to an environment that is actually really toxic.
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 44:32
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry, it is wild. I mean, I don't want
• 44:35
  Speaker 5: to like cast dispersions. It is wild to me that
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: this guy moved his kid into that house, right, It
• 44:41
  Speaker 5: is just like I have to have to say.
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: That, like there's so many things that I was confused
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: by that this situation. And I know this was like
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: the early like sixties, seventies, fifties, I don't know, like
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: sixty seventies.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: I think actually that I was.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: Like, yo, why would you you know, you take part
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: in this and you're okay with bringing your daughter in there.
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: And then also I don't know if her father knew
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: that that situation happened, but like that, they didn't remove
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: her from the situation. She remained there until she left,
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: I believe. And when she wrote the book, she had
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: some publicity, and then she was supposed to go do
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: a few more. According to her.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: Hugh Hefner called her. I was like, I'm so proud
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: of you for doing this book. Great job.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: Can you tell me who else you were going to
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: go see? And then when she found out and she
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: told him, he called all of them and they all
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: canceled on her. So like that was essentially like, not,
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: you're done this, this book is over.
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: We're not a free.
• 45:36
  Speaker 5: Speech everybody a champion express herself right.
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: And the woman that I was talking about earlier was
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: Mickey Garcia. She was the one that really came in
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: the eighties and came in and testified saying, I have notes,
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: and she actually in the documentary pulls out boxes of
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: notes and memos and all the things of all the
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: complaints that she was getting from women, all the rape
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: allegations that were happening, all the situations where they were
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: not correctly protected, all of these things, and then all
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: them being swept under the rug.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: But she was the one that really came through. It
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: was like, nah, this is bad. Y'all are doing some
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: bad things.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: And she alleges also that she was told that she
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: was in the rankings for being Playman of the Year,
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: which the way they pay is that you get a
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: substidentinal amount, well not even substantial. During her time, it
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: was fifteen thousand, and that was like you get five
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: thousand for the picture, and it being published, you get
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: another five thousand, uh after it's run for a year,
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: and then get another five thousand like three years later.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: So literally you got five thousand a year for like
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: the next four years.
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: Maybe like it was an absurd way of holding money
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: over their head for this instead of just being paid upfront,
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: which they couldn't say no to that. They were like,
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: oh that at that point, that's not a lot of money,
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: not really in comparison to how often you got that, but.
• 46:49
  Speaker 5: And what they're making from that from that, so it's
• 46:52
  Speaker 5: like when you put it in context, it's really not
• 46:54
  Speaker 5: that much money.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: Right, And as well as so, she was told that
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: she was in the running for being Playman of the Year,
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: which was going to be like a double if not
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: more than that, and that was a huge deal and
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: really big thing. But she had to go meet up
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: with Hugh Hefner for a personal appointment in order to
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: make that and when she refused to do so, they
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: didn't say she was like. The person who was trying
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: to arrange all this, which was a woman, was like, okay,
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: that's on you.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: You do you.
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: When she announced who the Playmate of the Year was,
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: it definitely wasn't her, And of course Garcia came back
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: was like, I don't. I'm not saying that the other
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: woman did do any of these things and had this
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: personal meeting in a way, whatever whatnot. But I'm just
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: saying that I was told this is what I would
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: need to do, or it was implied to me that
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: this is what I needed to do to get to
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: this point.
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's definitely clear that a lot of the machinations
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: of how this inner world worked is through things being
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: held over women's head, false promises that never come to
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: fruition really kind of pitting women against each other, like
• 47:53
  Speaker 5: it's so diabolical and toxic the inner machinations of how
• 47:58
  Speaker 5: this whole system sustained.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: Itself, right, And it was interesting to me just like
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: the timeline when you see things progressing and how gross
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: things got and the level of toxicity that remained. And
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: it really was like mad Men era type of thing.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: And then the sixties seventies, but it was also butting
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: heads with the feminist movement at the same time, which
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: is a whole different conversation, and again with the racial
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: equality movement. So he had so many other things that
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: he could point to. It felt like a distraction of
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: like I'm so great at this that I can do
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: these things too, Like it seems like.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: That kind of balance.
• 48:30
  Speaker 5: I mean, again, this is where it gets complicated in
• 48:32
  Speaker 5: that he did have concrete things that you could point
• 48:35
  Speaker 5: to and be like, oh, that was a good way
• 48:38
  Speaker 5: to push the conversation on race Ford, right, Like he
• 48:41
  Speaker 5: published very sort of like at the time, Progressive Conversations
• 48:45
  Speaker 5: about race you know. One of the first ever interviews
• 48:48
  Speaker 5: they ever published was an interview between Alex Haley, who
• 48:51
  Speaker 5: was the author of the book Roots, with the jazz
• 48:53
  Speaker 5: musician Miles Davis, and It's all about This was in
• 48:55
  Speaker 5: nineteen sixty two, and it's all about like racial equality
• 48:59
  Speaker 5: and sort of the future of race in America. Martin
• 49:02
  Speaker 5: Luther King's longest print interview appeared in Playboy in January
• 49:05
  Speaker 5: of nineteen sixty five. Cooper Hefner, Hugh Hefter's son, told
• 49:09
  Speaker 5: The Telegraph that the last article ever written by MLK
• 49:11
  Speaker 5: before his assassination was published by Playboy. He added that
• 49:15
  Speaker 5: a special edition was published in braille for musician Ray
• 49:17
  Speaker 5: Charles was blind. So he also was a big backer
• 49:22
  Speaker 5: of Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Push Coalition, which was like a
• 49:25
  Speaker 5: big racial justice organization back in the sixties. Hefner donated
• 49:28
  Speaker 5: twenty five thousand dollars as a reward in order to
• 49:32
  Speaker 5: help the comedian Dick Gregory uncover the bodies of slain
• 49:35
  Speaker 5: civil rights activists. So like he definitely did these things
• 49:39
  Speaker 5: that pushed the conversation around race forward.
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: I would argue that.
• 49:43
  Speaker 5: These things might have been done out of genuine desire
• 49:49
  Speaker 5: to shape conversations about race, But when he died, the
• 49:53
  Speaker 5: way the conversation was about these things makes me also
• 49:57
  Speaker 5: suspect that they were done with intention to make sure
• 49:59
  Speaker 5: that some of his less savory things would be drowned
• 50:02
  Speaker 5: out by these things, these good things that he actually did.
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: Do right right, And that's like that big part is
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: that he gave like this credence to the magazine. Insane
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: is not just naked women. Look at these articles. Look
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: at this like boundary pushing conversations we're having. We're talking
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: about LGBTQ rights, we're talking about racial equality, we're talking
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: about all these things that you want to hide, but
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: we are for the people, like he really yeah, but.
• 50:29
  Speaker 5: It's so funny that when you were at your friend's
• 50:31
  Speaker 5: house and watching the Playboy channel, it wasn't like, we're
• 50:34
  Speaker 5: gonna put on the Playboy channel. What is this Alex
• 50:36
  Speaker 5: Haley in conversation with Miles Davis about racial equality.
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: This is bad, let's watch it.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's become of a movie. Was like, no,
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: I get Playboy for the article. That's that like joke
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: that people have about it.
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: Honestly, the first time I realized people, and maybe because
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: I was out of the world, out of that world
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: like that was very I was very religious and so
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: like that was all that anyway, because it was naked
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: women in general, bad bad, bad, but like having the
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: Like the first time I think someone talked about the
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: articles was something with George Clooney related like he had
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: published something and I can't even remember, or about about
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: some depth of a conversation that seemed really political. And
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: then I think John Mayer wrote an article in there
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: or was interviewed in there talking about how he was
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: getting his sobriety and how he made all these mistakes,
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: like he was first like slamming the women and then
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: he came back later with now I'm sober.
• 51:30
  Speaker 6: Sounds like it's very interesting, very interesting to me that
• 51:35
  Speaker 6: it's like, look at these women naked the articles from
• 51:40
  Speaker 6: what I'm hearing, and mostly men.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: I don't think you're wrong.
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: I think he's probably right about That's what I was thinking, too,
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: is like when he talked about giving equal rights, not
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: that it's not because we need more voices obviously, but
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: it was more black women doing their investigative reporters when
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: they were talking about it. Also, they did send one
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: and I think it's that same comedian to a neo
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: like the newly founded American Nazi Group to interview them
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: who had a gun.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: The entire interview with him to threaten him.
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: I'm like, really, like that's what you decided that was
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: really gonna be cool?
• 52:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I do think like we could do
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: a whole, like like a whole conversation on the way
• 52:24
  Speaker 5: that Playboy understands and creates journalism and media, like apart
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: from the pornography. I actually the only copy of Playboy
• 52:32
  Speaker 5: magazine that I actually have in my house is one
• 52:34
  Speaker 5: from the seventies with an interview with Gore Vidal, the novelist,
• 52:37
  Speaker 5: and so like, they certainly weren't like publishing I think
• 52:41
  Speaker 5: with intention trying to publish sort of high minded, serious
• 52:46
  Speaker 5: writing like Norman Mail or things like that. I think
• 52:50
  Speaker 5: to again like manufacture this idea that if you had
• 52:53
  Speaker 5: a Playboy in your home, you weren't just looking at
• 52:56
  Speaker 5: pictures of breasts or whatever. You were reading like serious,
• 53:01
  Speaker 5: serious men writing about serious topics.
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: And I think like when we talked about like who
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: he was in the legend that he left behind, and
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: we we're probably talking about a lot of big insinuations
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: in this, like the when we talk about any of
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: the good things that he does, there's always a butt
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: like there's there this conversation cannot have that. So it's
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: like if you looked at our outline the way like
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: we had placed it was like, oh, we're gonna try
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: to talk about these things, but then we'll come into
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: the scandal of it all.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: But then like not, it just kind of all sits in.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: It can't do that.
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: There's no real way of like this is what he
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: did in the legacy, like blah blah blah, but this
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: is the legacy, and this is a part of his legacy,
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: Like the bad is also a part of his legacy,
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: and we have to forget it. It just because it's
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: newly sought out or at least uh women have now
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: or people marginalized people have finally come about to talk
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: about it doesn't mean that it wasn't always there, you
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: know what I mean, Like this is a conversation which
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: again this is a side note of the thing that
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: I saw so much of in this documentary, the back
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: and forth even from the victims themselves and the survivors themselves,
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: talking about I know I should have done all these things.
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: I know I should have gone out. I'm smarter than this,
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: I should not done this. This is my fault. The
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: many times I heard them say this is my fault
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: made me want to throw up. To be honest, like
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: I was like, this is irritating, even to the point
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: that one of the ones who was Hugh Heffner's friend
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: and work and defends him to this day, like she
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: had a group for support for Hugh Heffner on different
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: pages and whatnot. She talked about the fact that not
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: Hugh Hefner, but one of his like ringleaders kind of
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: set her up to be raped by one of the
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: photographers that worked close in hand with Hugh Hefner, And
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: she came out getting mad and yelling at that and saying,
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: don't you should never like she had told her, you know,
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: I'm leaving with you, don't leave me here because she
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: knew something bad would happen, and said, don't, like, you
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: should never do that to a woman.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: You never do that to another woman.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: But previously, if you like had a cut two moment
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: in my head in which she had like went after Holly,
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: who was one of the girlfriends from the Girl next Door,
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: probably the lead girlfriend, probably the most famous of the ones.
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: Like people who know nothing about Hugh Hefner or the playboy,
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: I knew who she was Holly Madison had written her
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: memoir and in the documentary, she's like, how dare she
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: She was not unhappy?
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: Why was she stay there? Why would she do these things?
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Why is she's.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: Lying now because she's she's taking his name like she
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: was mad? But she was also the same person who
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: had an experience that just wasn't Hugh Hefner personally related,
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: but losing that connection that there's a reason that culture
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: was okay, there's a reason another woman who worked very
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: closely with Hugh Hefner literally set you up to be raped,
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: and she could not connect that even today. And that's
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: kind of that conversation that we like, it's so jarring
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: to see.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if she noticed it.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: I doubt she did after I don't know if you
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: watched the entire thing, but like herself, the woman that
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: was on the documentary, but that's the level of like
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: conversations that people really really forget that there's a connection here.
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, totally. So the way that you clocked
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: that is so insightful.
• 56:26
  Speaker 5: And from listening to a lot of The Girl's Next
• 56:29
  Speaker 5: Level podcast and from reading a lot of the memoirs
• 56:32
  Speaker 5: that I think that is still an undercurrent where I
• 56:36
  Speaker 5: do think a lot of the women who were in
• 56:38
  Speaker 5: this orbit, whether they believe that something coercive happened to
• 56:44
  Speaker 5: them or not, I think a lot of them are
• 56:47
  Speaker 5: still doing currently doing the work of like processing that
• 56:52
  Speaker 5: and put and like contextualizing it. And I think that
• 56:55
  Speaker 5: when you are steeped in this world that is really
• 57:00
  Speaker 5: about putting women against each other, surveillance and exploitation, like
• 57:05
  Speaker 5: a lot of the women talk about, everybody in their
• 57:08
  Speaker 5: orbit is also kind of like vying for their job,
• 57:10
  Speaker 5: and so you don't know who to trust a lot
• 57:12
  Speaker 5: of surveillance.
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: I think that that.
• 57:15
  Speaker 5: Kind of environment would make any would be tough for anybody.
• 57:18
  Speaker 5: And I really see the ways that, like even today,
• 57:20
  Speaker 5: I'm not sure that they have truly processed what that
• 57:24
  Speaker 5: has done to them and how that has colored their
• 57:27
  Speaker 5: own internal understanding of what happened, because I really see
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: a lot of them sort of doing a lot of
• 57:32
  Speaker 5: that work in public, And I think for anybody that
• 57:34
  Speaker 5: would be really.
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: Tough, right absolutely, that what really was the back and
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: forth of like them not being able to fully blame
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: the perpetrator and not fully understanding the depth the things
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: that have gone through because again, this is that same level,
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: and I really want to highlight for conservative people or
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: at least like those who would be very like conspiratory people,
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: like this is groomy, this is trafficking. If you want
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: to know what we are talking about and what rooming
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: and trafficking truly looks like, this is it because these
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: women have been told and in like till today, like
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: people still find Playboy as a mecca or the all
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: like final realm of being sexy and a professional. Like
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: you see so many athletes coming into like I can
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: be both these things and these are going to meld
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: my image into this beautiful way of whatever whatnot, which
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: you know, we'll come back to the fact that that's
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: taken a long time to get to there. And they
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: want to credit Playboy for this, this level of acceptance
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: as being a feminine woman, because that's what Playboy chouts
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: as well as an athlete like these things as a
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: way of opening up their image. But what we're looking
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: at here is that young women being told, oh my god,
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: you're so pretty, you're so beautiful. We really want to
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: help you grow your career, We really want to help
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: you do these things. If you want to do these
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: test shoes. We're only going to do things that make
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: you felt comfortable. Oh you're uncomfortable. Here, let me give
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: you some a little bit of a little bit of vodka. Here,
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: it'll be good. You gonna will helps you put to ease.
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: We're gonna get you here.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: Look at this picture. Isn't this beautiful of you? Oh
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: my god? We want here to meet somebody, meet so
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: and so.
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: And the love bombing, which one of the older playmates
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: who she was like the star essentially of the first season,
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: Sonya Theodore, who was one of first girlfriends in the mansion,
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: talked about that this level of like conversation and grooming
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: and coming into being like, Oh, you're so loved, You're
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: so adored, You're the best thing for me, and everybody
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: talking about how she was so in love with with
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: how hef was so in love with her. Again, U,
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: these people would be like they should have gotten married.
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: He truly loved her, She truly loved him and all
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: these things to the point that her daughter was like
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: mad at her mom at first for doing these types
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: of documentaries because she didn't understand the depth of abuse
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: that she because she was told by her mother that
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: has really changed their life, really put them into such
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: a better place, really loved and cared for her. But
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: in her story she talks about like really like loving
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: him and really wanting to do these things for him
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: and being there for him and experiencing these new things
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: and getting away from her ugly past into all of
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: a sudden being like, oh, I have to recruit other
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: girls to be a part of this, begging other girls
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: to be a part of this, so she didn't know
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: she didn't have to suffer alone, Like she talks about that,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: to the point that she also talks about like being
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: handed over to his guy friends and her telling him,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: this hurts me.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: This dude hurts me.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: I don't make me do this, and he just laughing
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: at her and moving on like stuff like that, Like
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: this is like, this is trafficking. This this is screaming.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: Let me show you what this is. And this is
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: happening to what you see as a quintessential you know victim,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: this white woman who has like it and but many
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: people when after her saying she chose this.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: Life so like those who's.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: Spout trafficking and blad trafficking is awful. We need to
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: stop trafficking. Also doesn't believe that this is trafficking.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 5: Oh my god, So you're talking about the experience of
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 5: his first girlfriend. I have read the memoir of I guess,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 5: like his last girlfriend, the woman who was married.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: To him when he died.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, she just released that.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: I recommended it was a very good read.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 5: I know that when her memoir was released, people in
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 5: the Playboy Ordbert were like, Oh, she's just lying, Like
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 5: she shows this life but toward the end, I mean,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 5: you're talking about trafficking. Toward the end of the book,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 5: so she describes what it's like to be in the mansion,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 5: which it just sounds awful. I want to give some
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 5: tidbits about it, but it just it just sounds awful.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 5: But when she decides like I don't want to do
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 5: this anymore. I want to leave, the way that she
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 5: has to get out because of the way money works
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 5: within the mansion, but women are given an allowance of
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 5: a thousand dollars a week. It's this stop ritual where
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 5: they have to go to hef and ask for the
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 5: money and he's like, well, I guess you've been a
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 5: good girl. Here you go, and they it's a thousand
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 5: dollars cash. They're not allowed to really do work to
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 5: earn money outside of Playboy. Every now and then they
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 5: can do like appearances or something, but all of that
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 5: really has to go through Playboy unless they do like
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 5: a centerfold or an image, and then they get like
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 5: a little bit of a talent, a little bit of
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 5: a talent feed side note, the women who were on
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 5: Girls next Door did not get paid.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: Didn't get paid.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 5: The first person to bring up what like they should
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 5: be paid was Kendra and that was after the second season.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 5: Hugh hefter got four hundred thousand dollars an episode and
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 5: was barely in the show. And to like, you know,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: the only way that these women could really make money
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 5: was through Playboy. And so Crystal when she was like
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 5: I've had enough of this, she basically started kind of
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 5: like scurolling away her money and saving it up and
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 5: like moving her stuff out of the house little by little.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: And the way that she has to get out.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 5: Is the way that you would have to get out
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 5: of such a that you are not really in consensually.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 5: Before I read her memoir, I was like, oh, it
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 5: does sound like this is coercive or whatever.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: Whatever.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 5: She was being low key kept against her will when
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 5: she had finally had enough. At one point, she recounts
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 5: that when she was trying to like physically leave, she
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 5: had to be like, Oh, I'm just going to the
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 5: store to get some tampons, and then she had to
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 5: like get in her car and like split and that
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 5: when they realized that she was trying to leave, Hugh
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 5: Hefner was like, don't let her leave, And then it
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 5: occurs to her She's like, oh, I'm actually genuinely being
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 5: held against my will a little bit. And so when
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 5: you say when you use words like trafficking, I think
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 5: people think that we're using it as a euphemism.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 4: But if you are in a living situation that you have.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 5: You can only leave via secretly hiding money away and
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 5: lying about where you're going, and when you try to leave,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 5: somebody physically restrains you.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: You tell me what that sounds like, you know, right?
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: But that's the problem is like when we talk about
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: exploitation here, an exploitation, by the way, is a nice
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: word for this, Like I really wish like a we
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: will I think actually go deeper into it, because like again, kidnapping,
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: coercal trafficking, those were the things that were happening, rape,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: sexual assault, drugging, all of these things were happening in
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: this era and in connection to so I think this
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: is the biggest thing, is like part of the conversation
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: that people want to have is that it wasn't him.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: He didn't know what's going on.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: But this dude was a control free because the camera's everywhere.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: In fact, Tony Curtis, who legendary actor part of that,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: didn't know and actually came in and I.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: Believe, I don't know if he sued him.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: I think he did sue him to get any video
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: that would have of him because he freaked out, did
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: not realize what was happening. Like, so we know those
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: were there. That has been accounted for. That is a fact.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: Every single person that worked there, every single person that
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: went there for a long period of time, knew those
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: who existed after a certain amount of time, not at first,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: not at first. It finally came out and people started
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: figuring out, oh, oh, he's keeping tabs because there was
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: a power play. There was a kink and a power play.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: And it's interesting that when we talk about the exploitation,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: because it can range from anything to just using photos
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: of women to make money off of it. Two, which
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: is bad enough to once again sending them to a night,
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: remote isolated area to a man who has asked to
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: essentially buy them.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: Which included Trump by the way.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: And to use them allegedly allegedly, and to the fact
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: that women not knowing this was happening. So when they
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: got there, thinking they're going in for a modeling job.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: And the story with Trump was she was told that
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: she was going to the Tropicana campaign, was gonna be modeling,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: shows up and she's like, oh, sitting and talking to him,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: having dinner with him, doing all those things, and he
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: was like. She was like, okay, so let's when why
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: I start this and he was.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: Like, look, that's not happening. That's not a thing. You're
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: not here for modeling.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 3: And she was like, excuse me, and she called somebody
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: and said I'm not doing this and she immediately left.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: She did say, nothing happened, but that was the setup,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: Like he she had gotten set up to be a
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: sex thing for Trump against her will, like being co warced,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: like hoping that they could just scare her into it,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: and that happened.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: And we have a word for that.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 5: Someone who is being coerced against their will into doing
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 5: sexual activities with somebody that they don't want to do
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 5: that with.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 4: The law has a word for that. It's trafficking.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 5: That's that's not like us being hysterical or something.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 4: That's that's the word. And so I feel like when.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 5: We yeah, I just I think it's easy to make
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 5: it seem like we're like like talking about this in
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 5: a way that is exaggerated. But you tell to me
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 5: what that sounds like.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: Right exactly, And that's exactly the conversation is, like, y'all
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 3: never really say it, because I don't really think they
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: mention trafficking in the documentary, and I'm freaking out of
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: the social worker going, that's the epitome.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: This is what's happening.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: You have bought yourself a group of women through a
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: promise of fame and money to do your bidding to
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: get power or money from other beings, and they have
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: no controller say except they are owed to this to
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: you in their minds, in the minds of the power
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: to be that they owe this to you because you're
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: trying to do these things for them.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: Maybe right, they play the game.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 5: And within the context of the women like Holly Bridget, Kendra, Crystal,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 5: the twins Christina and Crisa. It's a lot more explicit
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 5: that this is an exchange of sex for money within
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 5: the context of like the girl's next door ecosystem, like
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 5: the like all of the girls are clear we are
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 5: expected to have nightly orgies on film with Hugh and
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: we are paid one thousand dollars a week allowance for that,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 5: and we get room and board for that. Like that
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 5: is that is much more explicit for the women who
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 5: are living.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: In the house. And it's curious to me how.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 5: People would then have trouble believing that outside of the house.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 5: For the women who were just sort of in the
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 5: orbit in a perferal way, how's that kind of same
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 5: dynamic would still be there, Like I'm like, this is
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 5: the drill.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: Obviously, this is the drill. The women who lived within
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 4: the house say, this is what happened.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 5: They had a very clear understanding of this as a
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 5: kind of job where the thing that they had to
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 5: do was sexual favors. Why would that Why would that
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 5: not be the case for the women who were just
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 5: modeling or the women who were peripherally in the Playboy.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: Orbit, right, right, Uh, so, I was saying that I
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: had the names of the girlfriends, and I have to
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: tell you that the title of the article, which is
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: how from Hollywoodlife dot com puts it, Hugh Hefner and
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 3: the women who loved him, And I think the chunk
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: of them were like, we didn't love him. We were
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: just told that we would get money. Yeah, which I'm like,
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: why would you posted that way then? And I say
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: they actually write that for the twins. By the way,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: the twins were nineteen years old when they were flown there.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: They had like sure they were They had sex before,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: but they never had sex together, and being with Hugh
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: Hefner was the first time because they were living his fantasy.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: Oh so, I think we're gonna have to turn this
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: into a two parter. It's clear that we have a
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: lot to say surprise, surprise, feminists have a lot to
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: say about Hugh Hefner. So we'll come back with the
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: part two. But in the mean time, Bridget, where can
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: the good listeners find you?
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 5: You can find me at I Hate Hugh Hefner dot
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 5: org just kidding, you can listen to my podcast.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 4: There are no girls on the internet.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 5: It's important to deconstruct all of the ways that media
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 5: and technology has been used to exploit. And we do that,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 5: and so I'm thankful that you all do that too
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 5: and gave me the space to really lay that bear
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 5: when it comes to Playboy and Hugh Hefner and listeners.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: If you would like to contact us, you can. You
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: can email it Stephanie and moms Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: You can find it's on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff when Never Told You.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: We're also on YouTube. We have a tea public store,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: and we have a book you can get wherever you
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: get your books. Thanks as always too, our super producer Christina,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: our executive producer Maya, and your contributor Joey. Thank you
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: and thanks to you for listening Stuff Never Told You,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: the productive of iHeart Radio. For more podcast on my
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.