Latest / Motherhood Uncut / An Interview with Deb Rubin | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 12

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An Interview with Deb Rubin | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 12 · Motherhood Uncut

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Motherhood Uncut.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: We are so glad you're here.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: In this podcast, Deb Ruben and I talk about all the things motherhood related, the things that people don't usually want to bring to the table.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: The messy, the hilarious, the ugly, the challenging, the amazing, the beautiful, the really FDAP, and all that stuff.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: We've got it here for you.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: We bring to you our own personal experience as moms, as well as some research and data that might help you along the way.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being here.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: Bring your friends.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: We've got you.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Come out with us.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: I get to introduce this week's podcast because in the drum roll, I got to interview Deb.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, Deb Ruben is not only one of my favorite people on this planet, but she's literally one of the most educated, brilliant, bright, intuitive people I know when it comes to understanding kids and adolescents and relationships between parents and children.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: And I got to interview Deb today about her understanding of adolescence and the adolescent brain and the adolescent in social situations.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: I have Deb at my side all the time, and I still learn more in this interview.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: So find a seat, find a cup of tea, put on your earbuds, turn on the radio in your car, whatever you need.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: But you might want to listen now and then come back and take some notes later because I don't know about you, but I walked away feeling empowered to be a better parent.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: Enjoying it.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: Hey Kate, I have to tell you about this new Boulder Jewelry Company that not only has amazing jewelry, but it has an amazing message.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: I love jewelry.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: What's it called?
1:46
SPEAKER_00: It's called Leela Inspired, and it's based here on Boulder, and it creates natural stone bracelets and necklaces.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, you and I both love bracelets, love jewelry.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: And you know what we both do?
1:57
SPEAKER_01: We love wearing different bracelets in different colors.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: You know when you stack like gold and silver and beads?
2:02
SPEAKER_01: I love that look.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: I love it too.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, let me tell you, I just spent a few minutes on their website and I looked at all the different ways to stack the bracelets, and oh my gosh, the combinations are endless.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: They have jewelry that you can wear to yoga or just grabbing coffee, you can dress it up or down.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: I actually loved it all.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: My friends, every important thing I have done in my life has had before its leap.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: Uncertainty, kind of that frozenness that happens when we're right at the edge of something and we're not quite sure whether or not to take that leap.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: Every single thing I've done that's been meaningful has had that moment before it.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: I am really excited to be offering this year-long program with my dear friend and leadership coach Ashley Wick called Take the Leap.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: It is a year of support, encouragement, platform, mindset, strategy to actually get you from here to there.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: I really want to invite you to come join us because this is a really exciting time and you're at the verge of something.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: If you want to learn more, if you're ready to apply, go on to my website.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: Link is in the show notes and learn what the next steps are.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: This launches on April 5th, and I'm telling you, good things are to come.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to see what's up for you in this next year of your life.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: Come join us.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: We can't wait to see you there.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: As many of you know by now, I have a huge passion for self-discovery and growth.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: I love nothing more than helping people find their way back to their intuition.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: When it comes to building connection, as mothers, we have a deep intuition that can sometimes feel muddled at times, especially when we're working with adolescents.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: In my workshops for moms only, I focus on helping moms increase their compassion and deep understanding, which ignites confidence and intuition.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't it feel amazing to be steady with your daughter while she is so unsteady these days?
4:05
SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't it feel amazing to actually have joy and playfulness in your parenting?
4:09
SPEAKER_00: My workshops are all about that.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: And now I'm offering for the first time ever a virtual workshop.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: If you sign up with the code MotherhoodUncutMDJ, you will receive a 20% discount upon registration.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: Come join me and increase your confidence so you can really shine your mama light.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: You will notice in this interview that Kate's microphone is a little bit low.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: She sort of sounds far away.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: So apologies in advanced.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for dealing with us, and I hope you enjoy the show.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Have a great day.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Hi, Deb.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: Hi, Kate.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, I am actually so it is like coming home today because we're not interviewing anybody from outside of the Kate and Depp show.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: It's the Kate and Depp show.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: I know, it feels nice to just yes.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: It really does.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: I think that while we've had all of these amazing guests, I've sort of missed picking your brain.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: I get to do that in a major way.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited for this conversation today.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: Deb, we get to dig into you today and your work.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, for our listeners who don't know, um, you have a long decades plural worth um history of being a psychotherapist and of really working.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Specifically, a lot of your work has focused on couples, partnerships, couples.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: And in the last year or two, you have shifted a bit away from that and really taken your lucky me expertise on relationships and connections and attachments into the realm of mothers and daughters.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I just want to remind, I want to tell our listeners this thing that happened over the weekend where I had a sort of struggle around something that had to do with relationships, and I called you and you spent an hour on the phone with me, and I was like, God, Deb can show up for me as a therapist work because you actually have this just extraordinary way of helping us, helping me really understand my part in relationships when they're not feeling so good, you know?
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things that I've gotten the benefit of is you taking that skill and helping mothers and children figure out what it means to be in really healthy, secure attachment and relationship with each other.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: I am wondering if we could start today by you just telling us a little bit about how you got to hear in 2023 from there when you were focusing on adult relationships, how you got here to be shifting all that skill and focus into working with mothers and daughters.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, thank you for that wonderful introduction.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: And and I have to say that for us to have conversations like we had this weekend takes two because it's a mutual.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: We go back and forth with being each other's friend and therapist simultaneously, and you allowed me to come in fully because you're so open and receptive.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: So I just want to give you kudos in that process too.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, so you asked such a good question, and you know, I was I've been reflecting on this podcast, and I actually haven't really shared very much about my history on the podcast because it hasn't, there just hasn't been a moment for it.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: And um, so like all like found something to know about me is that I learn as I go, and so and I have lots of interests.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: So I will like study something and practice that for a little while and then learn something new and practice that for a while, and that has really been kind of the journey of my work.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's really important to go back to where my inner champion for adolescence comes from.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: And that is because I went through a trauma as an adolescent.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: And um, so I'm just gonna share about it really quick because I think now more than ever, I'm deeply understanding that trauma so that I can be so so much of an observer about it that it allows me to actually see adolescence in a really different way, which allows me to really want moms specifically to understand this deep journey that they're on.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes, because I think sometimes if we're not really curious or in a state of wonder or reflection, we just see our teenagers as a as like smaller versions of us.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: Right?
9:05
SPEAKER_01: Without really understanding like what is actually happening developmentally, emotionally, socially, psychologically.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: And let me start by saying when I'm speaking about adolescence, I'm starting at the age 11.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: And but I my workshops are around starting at age nine, because actually nine is where we first start to see major shifts in their journey of becoming separate from us.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: So I'll go there in a minute.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: But starting back with me is I um when I was 15, my very, very dear friend died in a car accident.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: And it was such a traumatic time for me in that I didn't actually learn how to sit with my pain and how to sit with conflicting emotions, and I quickly tur took on a role of being a caretaker in my friend group.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: And um so my point is it was a drunk driving accident.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: They were coming to pick me up and some friends, which we were sneaking out of the house, and it was um, I mean, I'm not gonna go deep into the trauma around that because it doesn't totally feel relevant, but I think it's just important to know that there was a 15-year-old in me that got very stuck.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: And then I started actually going down kind of a dark road.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: I was making some really, really bad choices.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: I was getting in trouble a lot.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, I was I was avoiding pain, you know, it was like a classic, classic avoidance technique.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: And I had some incredible parents that encouraged me to um go on an outward bound trip.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: And that is when I left Connecticut, had never actually been to the mountains and went into Colorado and got my ass kicked.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: And I actually in that process found a voice, I found this inner desire to understand myself, and I really felt like I came home being in the mountains.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: And so that actually started my journey of wanting to become an outdoor educator.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: And then I started, and then I did, I got a job as an outward bound instructor, which was just like so amazing, and I was so excited about that job, and I got to work with teens.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: But the teen in me was still very much present.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: And what I learned in that process is as much as I love the outdoors and I still do, what I love more was the connection with the teens.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: And so from there, I had I went back to grad school and I went to DU and I got a clinical social work degree.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, in the middle of that somewhere, I started working at Planned Parenthood.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: And this is important to say too, because at that job, I was also working with teens and I was teaching comprehensive sexuality and kind of going less from the outdoor adventure to the internal adventure of becoming a sexual being.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: And again, the inner teen in me was still really alive and well.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: I was adulting, but I was very much mixed with a stuckness in my adolescence.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: So just pause, just so that we can follow along.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: What did that look like?
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, what does that actually mean in it?
12:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, how can we come there with you for a moment?
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a great question.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, these were in my early 20s, and I would say that I was going to work, I was going to this into the city, I was definitely in a mentor role, but I was also still kind of living this very wild life in like um of just I would think I was like playing out some parts of myself that didn't actually get to be addressed.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: Not that they even could have.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: I it's not even like I'm comparing it to how it should have been.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: It was just sort of my journey.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: I was I was dating guys that felt very immature.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Sorry if any of them were listening.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Um and I was immature.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: Like emotionally, I was very immature, and I was I was feeling this sense of um, how do I say it?
13:16
SPEAKER_00: It was almost like I was living two lives at one point.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: I remember I was like, I was just emotionally immature in my relationships, but wanting something more mature.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Like I could tap into that need to be separate, but I was very much attached to this identity of sameness and closeness.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: I think part of the reason I'm asking is just so that we can follow along with how this version of being 20 is might be different from a version of being 20 if there hadn't been a trauma.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think that goes to the point of that, you know, just because we grow older doesn't mean we grow up.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: And that actually is maybe a good segue into why I feel so deeply committed to helping parents, particularly moms, help teens and preteens learn how to grow up.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay, because just because they're going through the motions, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily going into maturation.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: And so let me segue because actually you asked a really important question around, you know, then I got into couples and and that.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: The couples work actually felt really easy to access.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: I could kind of put, I started to do some really important internal therapy of myself and worked with my inner adolescent, and I started to really heal her.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: And then it allowed me to be really present with this idea of how do we connect as sexual beings, how do we connect on a deep spiritual relational journey with a partner, and that all felt fun and exciting, and I understood it on a deep level.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: And the only reason I transitioned out of it is because I just started to get a little burnt out.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, but simultaneously I was starting to raise teens and tweens, and I was seeing this journey through such a different lens based on how much work I had done on myself and my inner teen.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: And it became really apparent to me that this was a message I wanted to support moms in because I think that there's so many ways our culture sends us messages that we kind of don't have as much control as we think we do, or we don't have as much say, and we're not very influential, and there's some truth in that, but I wanted to really step into this idea that we can empower moms to understand the teenage process in such a different way that it can actually be really joyful and like alive and playful and fun, and exciting.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I, you know, as a mom of teens, think I can speak for moms of teens everywhere, which is that it's really fucking confusing a lot of the time.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Right?
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Like we watch our kids being sporadic and you know, kind of volatile and quote unquote emotional, and we watch them, we've talked about this in the podcast, we watch them making choices that are cringy for us, and then it so it's a it really is this time in parenting where I guess I'm saying this out loud for the first time, where they're confused and we're confused.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we're like both in a state of confusion together.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: Spot on.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: Which, if we're not willing or see the value in leaning into, we can get frenetic and scrambly to try to fix the lack of understanding.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: That's right, yes, because our intuition can tend to slip away, you know, sometimes and not all the time, but nurturing can come sometimes more naturally with infants and early childhood.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: It's like it's it's sort of ingrained in us to be nurturers.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: Again, that doesn't happen for everyone, but we can kind of step into that identity with a little bit more ease.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: And then when we're working with adults, we can relate to adults because we are adults, so there's more ease there.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: But with this journey of adolescence, like you're saying, it's very confusing and it's confusing for them.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: And as parents, we often lose our intuition, which is why we need insight.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: And when we develop insight, is how when we really learn about what the process is about, we can step back in a different way to see them as their own beings going through this clumsy journey.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: You know what you and I just side note, you and I have talked about this in many times, you know, when you've been so helpful for me, is like if I get it happens so often, right?
17:55
SPEAKER_01: If I'm not leaning in to the confusion and uncertainty, and by leaning in, I mean surrendering to it, accepting it, right?
18:03
SPEAKER_01: If I'm not doing that and I'm resisting it, I start acting like a 16-year-old myself.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: Then I'm a 16-year-old trying to parent 16-year-old gold, yo.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm even flustered just thinking about it, right?
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Like that's a shit show.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and that happens to all of us all so often.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, when I actually used to work with couples all the time, that was such a beautiful recognition when the 16-year-old in each partner is getting activated, and then you have two teenagers trying to be in a marriage or a partnership, and that's impossible as well.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: So I guess the one thing I want to start with is that I look at this adolescent journey as it's not really a phase of life, it's a long, windy bridge.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: It actually, and it's very long.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it starts from 11 and goes till 25.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: We forget that very, very long.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: But we're not fully adult, brain-wise, until 25.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: And it's this journey of how to learn how to be in society.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: Really, like we're leaving early childhood and learning how to be in society and basically be successful in the world away from the family system.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: And things can get really clunky along the way because there's this tendency to lean towards peers and peer orientation before people are ready for that, meaning they're lacking maturity.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: And our culture actually really emphasizes this importance of independence, which of course, when we go into society, we want our young people and as they grow up to be independent.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: But I oftentimes I think we're rushing the process and kind of teaching independence before people are totally ready.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: And when we think about independence, it's like, what does that actually mean?
19:55
SPEAKER_00: So when I ask, when I talk to you, what does that mean to you?
19:58
SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll tell you what's coming up for me is sort of in my brain muddling with these two concepts, independence and self-reliance.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: So when I hear the word independence, I think I actually the the feeling in my body and what I picture in my mind is actually more isolation.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: It's like, it's like, well, that's not the right term.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: It's like I can do it all by myself.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't need anybody else to help me.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Right?
20:29
SPEAKER_01: Which I think there's it's like a Venn diagram.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: I think there's a part of that in self-reliance, but to me, independence is suggestive of quote unquote not needing anybody else as opposed to having the tools and skills to access what I need on my own self-reliance, which might require me to reach out for support and connection from others.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: So there's something about the term independence to me, and I'm not sure I would have answered it this way 10 years ago.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but that really is a little bit um it's sort of problematic for me when I think about it, because it really suggests that we should be able to do things in in a in a mode that is in a in a container that is separate from others.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: I think of self-reliance as being able to go inside first to figure out what we want and need before going outside.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: But if I'm self-reliant, I might be able to come into myself and be like, oh, I actually know that I can't do this thing by myself.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: So who can I reach out to to help support me in this process, to be in relationship with in this process?
21:42
SPEAKER_01: That to me kind of contradicts this idea of independence.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, in circle.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: No, I get it.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: It does.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: It makes so much sense.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: And it and it's confusing.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: And it's confusing, especially because um there's this term of helicopter parenting that I think people are very scared of, and it's actually not.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: As common as one may think.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: And so there's a lot of mixed messaging around like laissez-be, laissez-faire, give them lots of space and room, you know, let them learn by making lots of mistakes.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: There's so much wisdom and all that.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: But the thing we have to remember, to your point, is that we are still the center of their worlds right now.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Ideally, exactly.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: We want them to be as family-oriented for kind of longer than we might think, versus being peer-oriented in order for them to get the validation, the reflection, the honesty, their accolades all through us.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: Because if they start getting it through their peers, it's actually only going to set them up for disappointment because the nature of adolescence is to be unreliable, insecure, inconsistent.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: So if there's a lateral relationship in their world where they're trying to learn and discover who they are, it's going to be um distorted.
23:06
unknown: Yeah.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: And so what we want actually is this kind of in a good way I'm saying this a hierarchical relationship where they there's adults in their lives that are reflecting for them in a really clear, honest way, and we pay attention to what they need and we pull out who they are.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: Okay?
23:29
SPEAKER_00: So I'm I might be digressing a little bit.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: I just wanted an example.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: So our job right now is to pull out their inner wisdom.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about this term egocentric.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: And it's, you know, I I I I don't actually know the exact definition in the in the dictionary, but I'm thinking it's something around like the world revolves around you, right?
23:53
SPEAKER_00: In many ways.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: And what I have come to learn and so deeply appreciate is that the world has to revolve around them so that they can truly learn about themselves.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: So right around, you know, this stage, let's say 11, 12, they start to get their brains start to get thick.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: There's like this thickness around them.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: So they actually can't hear us or anyone else for that matter, the way they once did, because they're learning how to listen to themselves.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: When you say their brains get thick, are you literally saying the neocortex, like the outer layer of the brain, actually thickens?
24:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: It's much more metaphorical.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: I don't know actually if the brain changes in that way.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: It might.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: That's something I would study more.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking more kind of on a spiritual and emotional journey.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: And so I think this is so let me back up for one sec, because I think this is really important for parents to hear is that up until the age 12, there's many theorists that are believing this, and I really lean into this too, that up until the age 12, we as parents are very influential.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: Our values, our opinions, they're mimicking us.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: Like they're actually valuing sameness with us, which is okay.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: That's a superficial version of attaching to us, okay?
25:18
SPEAKER_00: There's getting a sense of self through senses and through um feeling like they really fit in with us, okay?
25:26
SPEAKER_00: Then as they start to mature, we are less influential.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: And that is painful for a lot of us to understand.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: But we have to trust that those values and those messages that we taught them all the way up until now, they're in there and they're gonna come back.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: But because they're kind of tuning out the outside world, they're learning how to develop their own opinions, their own values, their own um, you know, ideals, and they are quite idealistic at this stage.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: And we actually have our job is to pull that out of them so they can hear their own sense of self.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: Is this description you're giving us what we might call differentiation, where a child is learning that it's okay to be different from, and then that our job is as parents, is to give them permission to be different from, to celebrate that difference, as opposed to criticizing or shaming or fearing their difference.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: Am I getting that right?
26:28
SPEAKER_00: You are getting that right.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: And differentiation, yes, it's the separation piece, but what I think is getting a little tripped up is that even though we want them to separate and have their own opinions, we still have to actively work to be the place where they rest.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: We have to be the place that they come home, and if we don't agree with their opinion, rather than criticizing it, and trust me, like we've said before, there's so many cringy moments where we're just like, really?
26:55
SPEAKER_00: That's what you think.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: But instead, if we can actually change our tune to be like, we want them to develop their own opinions so that they start to have an emerging sense of self, knowing that these opinions are gonna change and shift, but we want to actually validate what's happening for them.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes, totally.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, so again, this is like this this big idea of we have to see the forest through the trees right now because, and this is something that I I often have to remind myself is that as they're separating from us and learning who they are, is everything okay?
27:34
SPEAKER_00: Keep going okay, and learning who they are, they are developing a stronger sense of self, but what's harder today than has ever been before harder today than it's ever been before is that they're not only finding individuation, they're competing with socialization.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and the way I like to describe socialization is it's this idea of keeping in touch, keeping up, blending.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: These are things that have typically been normal parts of the world, but because of the the world we're living in with technology as it is, like the keeping in touch piece is taking over the individualization piece.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and that's a tricky place to be right now.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: So when they're at home with us, this is more of a motivation to pull out their individualization, pull out their opinions and their will.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Because when they're out in the world, they're working very hard to keep up and stay in touch.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, look at Snapchat, for example.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: It's like stay in touch, stay in touch, stay in touch, right?
28:42
SPEAKER_00: And there's like a little bit, there's there's fear and panic that what happens if you don't stay in touch.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: And in that process of staying in touch, they're actually losing a little bit of their emerging self, which is keeping kids a little more stuck in an immature stage.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: Is this, are you saying that part of what's contributing to this stuckness, this sort of uh block in creating an emerging self is the impact of all of this socialization through social media because it's like in our face all the time for kids?
29:24
SPEAKER_00: I am.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm saying that's a big part of it.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: And um and and it is, isn't it interesting?
29:31
SPEAKER_00: It's just a different world.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you think back in the day when kids would turn 12 in like villages, they would kind of go off, do some kind of crazy adventure or like learn these life skills and come back to the village, they would get like all this love and hierarchical reflection of the community.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: There'd be they'd be taking care of little ones, they'd be kind of in this process that would actually be feeding their sense of self, but also it wouldn't be as focused on being out in the world as early.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: So the village mentality would actually support them in this growth to maturation.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's like a both and a play and blending.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and then coming back to um holding and learning and modeling from elders.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: That's right, right?
30:26
SPEAKER_00: That's right, and you what you just said so beautifully coming back.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: This is a something that I lean on a lot is that when there is moment when there are moments of dependency, that's what grows independency.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: And so it's really important because we as parents have to look moment to moment, and we've talked about this before on the podcast, but like let's say, and our kids actually said this so beautifully when we interviewed them, let's say they're going through a transition or they're going through a hard time, that might mean that we as parents have to kind of look at them through a, they're going, they're going a little bit backwards, they're having a little bit more immaturity, and I don't mean that in a negative way, but we then have to feed the parent attachment in a different way to kind of help them through the bump a little bit rather than kind of pushing them to move through it quicker than they're ready.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: And that's why it's like this moment-to-moment thing.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: Some kids, you know, they are actually showing a ton of self-reliance and they're very independent and they don't have as and it they're just kind of going at a faster pace, which we celebrate, right?
31:39
SPEAKER_00: But there's so often kids that are doing this like yo-yo effect thing, and uh, that's where I really want us to pay attention to.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: When do we need to step in and parent them in a as a almost as if they're a little bit younger for a small period of time in order to get them through a transition.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: So let me ask you a real-time example.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: We use an example for this.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: So I have a daughter who is beautifully self-reliant, independent in in sort of the ways that I was describing, overlap with self-reliance, right?
32:15
SPEAKER_01: She is her own thinker.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: She is does not lean into being with the crowd.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: And because of this, you know, she's self-motivated.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: She comes home, she does her homework, she like reminds me when dances, right?
32:31
SPEAKER_01: She is like very her own person.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: I have in many ways been, I've struggled with that a little bit because she has never really I've wanted to be, you know, her mama and like soak her up in my arms, and she doesn't love to be snuggled with, right?
32:49
SPEAKER_00: She doesn't like that proximity.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: She doesn't like that proximity.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: Here's my question.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: So, or maybe my reflection is that there are plenty of times where I this morning is a great example.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, she came downstairs and I was like, hey, can I help you get ready for school?
33:03
SPEAKER_01: She's like, Nope, got it.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: She's like cooking her own eggs, she's 13.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: She's making her own eggs, she's making her own lunch.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm like standing around for a minute, I'm like, okay, I guess I'll go get myself ready.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: My kid doesn't need me.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: He's very self-reliant.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: And then every once in a while, she will come home and like it's she's not a physical snuggler, but I can feel it emotionally.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: I can feel this like asking for my opinion and my advice.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: Um wanting to sort of be with me instead of going off with her friends.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: It's it's subtle.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: If I wasn't paying attention, I might quite frankly get annoyed because it's so different from this other way of being.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: To say it feels needy is not the right term.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel needy, but it feels like, oh, I'm needed.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm needed.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: And it feels different than her norm.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: It feels different than her norm.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: And I am, and that and now I go back to like, oh, that can be confusing.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: Like, do you want me or do you not want me?
34:01
SPEAKER_01: Now, again, as you know so well, so much of my personal work and the work I do is like, oh, we need to learn how to you do this too in your work, of course.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: We need to learn how to take care of ourselves in those moments so we don't react to that confusion and blame and shame.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: But I think this is what you're talking about.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: Is this a good example?
34:18
SPEAKER_00: It's a great example, and what I hear is that you are attuned to her.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: And so this is something we've talked about before that this is not necessarily about doing, but it is about being.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: Energetically.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: Energetically.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: You are attuned to her that and that is that is where we we have to soften our ideas and ideals of how we see our kids because they are doing this kind of in and out dance.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: And so exactly, and so when you when you have this feeling like she needs you in a different way, that is your invitation to connect with her in a different way because she's actually so clear about it.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: Now, Bridger is so clear, and many kids are not, you know, that we have to actually kind of like read between the lines a little bit.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: It's like like this suddenly needing us to drive them everywhere.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, you and I have both talked that we really value grit and we we really like them to kind of increase their stress levels under imperfect situations, like walking to school in the cold.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: And then there's moments where they are just you can see it in their eye and they're tender, and the day that you take the opportunity to drive them to school, even if it feels worrisome that we're going backwards, I guess that's what I really want to be clear.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: It's not going backwards.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: It's cool, thank you.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: And and when I think of visualizing it on a bridge, like this long, windy bridge, is that sometimes they stop on the bridge and sometimes they go backwards to like pick up a shell that they see on the bridge.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: And like that's where we as parents, we are staying steady in ourselves and all your work around self-care so that you can be really clear and receptive in a way that they need us, that it is our job to be able to reflect where they're at and that they go backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: It's really quite beautiful, and you know, they're having this explosion of awareness.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: So the things I like to think about is there's this egocentric piece, which we've talked about.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: They literally need to tune out the outside world to learn who they're becoming, and we are there to reflect that.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: There's this explosion of awareness.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: They are just like their senses are so alive, they're paying attention to so many different things.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: Then there's this idealism that comes with this stage that is really intense because it's like they have this ideal of what a perfect mom can be, and then they think that it's real, but it's also this ideal of like, well, I could have a perfect mom, and then you're not, because you're human, therefore you're so annoying, and everything about you is annoying.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: So I say this to anyone that is feeling like they are annoying their kids all the time.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: It is not personal.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: I know we say it all the time, but it is really not personal because it's them projecting this ideal world that they think they should be living in.
37:25
unknown: Interesting.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we'll come to learn later in life that the realities of the world are so different, and and no one's really looking at us that much, you know, which can be quite liberating.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: But for them, they're in this place of this explosion of awareness, which is their awareness of themselves, and they think the whole world is looking at them too.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: And then there's this idealism that is just really it's gonna fade out, but it's pretty profound right now.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: And so just to kind of ride it, you know, it's like we have to ride it with humor and understanding that this is temporary.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, there's the sexualization piece that's happening, and I'm not gonna get into that today, but that's a huge piece of what's shifting in in how they relate to the world, because you're a sexual being in the world and their puberty is on display, and they're being sexualized, and they're learning who they are as a sexual being, and because they're going through puberty and they're actually kind of technically ready to co procreate, they're not emotionally ready.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: So that just leads to all this confusion.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: We've had so many questions about that, and I just think that's really worth diving into.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: So, in these last few minutes that we have, I am because we could keep going.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: So much more to say.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, so what are you want, what are you wanting for us as listeners to this really important conversation, information?
38:56
SPEAKER_01: What are you hoping?
38:57
SPEAKER_01: What are like two or three things you're hoping we walk away with?
39:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh my God, I have so much to say.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think I want listeners to remember that we want them to stay connected to us, right?
39:16
SPEAKER_00: That's the big theme I'm talking about.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: And I want to give a couple tools, actually, if that's helpful.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: One is this idea, and this is from um Gordon Neufeld, which I I really like his teachings a lot, and he talks about this idea of connect before you direct.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: And if we're talking that we're not as influential as we once were, but we still want to be the ones that are influencing them, we actually have to really learn how to connect before we direct.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: And you know, if you think back to babyhood, when we would try and get a baby's attention, can you do you remember what you would try and do first?
39:56
SPEAKER_00: Look at their eyes.
39:57
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: So getting eye contact.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: It's like we we get their their gaze, and then often we try and get them to smile.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: That's like a natural tendency to be like, oh, hello in there, you know, whatever.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: And then once we get a smile and a nod, we're kind of in.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: And if you watch a baby and an adult, once you have a smile and a nod, you you can walk around the room and the baby will follow you.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: So think about that with with these days.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: We want to get their eye contact, which can be kind of intense for teens.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give you a little tip about that in a second.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: We want to get the nod so that we're somehow in with them.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: And this could be like a two-minute process, and then they're going to hear our voices in a different way.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: And they're gonna actually know that we are the ones that have their back, we are the ones that are guiding them, we are technically the ones that they still want to please.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: And I know that can sound confusing, like pleaser mentality, that's not what I'm saying, but it's that we want them to think about us when they're making kind of decisions of what our family values are rather than their peers.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so to go back to how do we get them to like connect with us.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: Let's say I'll use Bridger as an example, and she is doing art and not looking up at you, and you're trying to, you know, get her attention on some level.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: The simple task is to first come into her world, look at her art with her.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: You're going to where her gaze is.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: Here you can stand side by side and just take two minutes, like, tell me what you're drawing right now.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: Or if if a kid is staring out the window, go behind them and look at what they're staring at too.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you what do you see?
41:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's just a simple like I'm coming into your world, and then I'm gonna get your attention, and then we're gonna have this nod and a smile, and then I can tell you, like, hey, I need you to honor your curfew tonight, or hey, will you empty the dishwasher?
41:56
SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, hey, like, we're gonna have a family meeting tonight, whatever it might be, you know.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: But you cannot give direction or have influence until you're having regular connection with them.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, we're wrapping it up.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm like, I I mean, we need to wrap it up, and I actually think there needs to be a part two because there's so much here.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: Um but let's just make sure we're we're tying this up for our listeners today.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: So, so connect before you redirect, talking about having these tools to know that we need to connect with our teens, our adolescents, in order to have the kind of influence that we're hoping to have.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: And can I say one more thing really quick?
42:40
SPEAKER_00: The other big thing that gets kids through this phase and through or through this bridge is the ability to have many emotions at the same time.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: So you started the whole podcast with saying that like there's a lot of emotionality happening right now.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: And what I want parents also to walk away with is that emotions are good.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: We want them to have emotions.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: And so when kids are little, they have a very like this or that mentality.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: It's very black and white.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: When they're in this stage, they for the first time are learning I can have this emotion and this emotion on one hand or the other.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: As parents, I want us to reflect the capacity to hold opposing emotions at the same time because that's gonna give them permission to grow and develop a sense of self through their emotionality.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna try really hard not to judge and be scared of their big emotions.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: So that's the other thing.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, there's more tips and techniques, but you can do find those out in my workshops.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, tell our listeners where they can learn more of these tips and techniques.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: You've got a bunch of things coming up right now.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: I do.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: So you can follow me on Instagram where I try to give tips and techniques all the time.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm running a series of workshops right now, mostly focused on moms with nine to eleven year olds and moms of middle schoolers.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: Historically, I'll have moms, I've had moms of high schoolers as well, but that is that's every other month, right?
44:01
SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: And those who identify as.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: And but I'm opening up right now.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: I have in person and Boulder, which are small intimate groups.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: They're really nourishing.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: They're full of gems and education and and so much time to get support.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, share and understand and find our intuition.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: But I'm also opening up to the virtual world because I'd love to branch out out of Boulder.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: And so for anyone that's listening, come check it out because they're they're really awesome workshops that you learn so much about yourself and how to really let your kiddo thrive to be exactly who they are.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: I think we need to learn these tips and tools, especially if we weren't raised by mothers who were inherently doing these things already.
44:43
SPEAKER_01: I think we're really kind of learning as we go.
44:46
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, as you know, I took two of your workshops.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you did.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: And I am forever grateful about that because the holding you provide for both of us, right?
44:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think there's a way, there's a difference between learning the skills like we are now as mothers, which I highly, highly suggest.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: I think we all need that.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: And the workshops are for mothers only right now.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: But to your point, go on.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: Is also finding ways to be in community with other mothers and other daughters or other mothers and other children so that we can practice all those things together with our kids in community.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: I think that's so valuable too.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: And these middle school workshops for moms only are the prerequisite for the mom and daughter all-day workshops that I offer in the fall and the spring.
45:31
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
45:31
SPEAKER_01: Come take a retreat out to Boulder.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: Yes, come visit us.
45:35
SPEAKER_01: What a place to be.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: I love you.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: I love you too.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: So amazing.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm walking around with so many nuggets today.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: This is fun.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: Kate show.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: It's fun.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for interviewing me.
45:47
SPEAKER_00: And again, to our listeners, this is just skimming the surface.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: So there's so much more.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: And please don't hesitate to reach out if you have specific questions.
45:56
SPEAKER_00: DM me anytime and let's mother together.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: Let's mother together.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: All right.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: Love you, Kate.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
46:02
SPEAKER_01: Bye.
46:03
SPEAKER_01: Hey, you guys, it's Kate.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: And if you did, go ahead and share it with a friend.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: It also would mean the world to me and Deb if you would take a minute and write a review.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: If this podcast makes you laugh, it makes you cry in the best of ways, helps you feel less alone, it gives you information that's useful to you in your mothering journey.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: If you write a review, it will make this more accessible to other mothers like you.
46:29
SPEAKER_01: So take a minute.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: We'd be so grateful.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being here.