Latest / The Jon and Marc Podcast / The Design Defect That Transmits Superbugs: Inside the Olympus Scopes Case

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The Design Defect That Transmits Superbugs: Inside the Olympus Scopes Case · The Jon and Marc Podcast

0:00
The scope is reusable. It's designed in such a way that
0:04
it is impossible to fully clean. If a scope is used in a patient,
0:09
has a super bug, and then it's reused on you, even if you
0:13
follow the instructions for you to the T as a provider, those
0:16
scopes are still not clean and that super bug gets transferred
0:19
into the next patient, which could be you.
0:21
I'm not going to the doctor ever again.
0:33
We are back on the John and Mark podcast with Mark.
0:36
Just let me know our first ever recurring guest other than Joe
0:40
Fantini who joins us every week. Kelsey Stokes is back to talk
0:45
about the next new litigation. The last time she was on, she
0:49
talked about hernia mesh and that was one of our most viewed
0:51
episodes. As I told you before we started,
0:54
I think not just because it, you did a fantastic job explaining
0:58
litigation, which I know you're going to do today talking about
1:01
Olympus scopes, but because the things that you talk about are
1:04
so relevant not only to the attorneys who are looking at
1:06
these cases, but the people who are potentially affected by
1:09
these problems with these medical devices.
1:11
So thank you again for joining us.
1:12
Well, I'm so happy you guys had me back.
1:14
It was so much fun last time, so I'm thrilled to be here.
1:17
Always enjoy talking to you guys.
1:19
Thank you. Thank you.
1:20
And you're now officially with. The Linear Law Firm.
1:24
I'm very happy. It is a fantastic firm.
1:27
I cannot stress enough the level of professionalism from the top
1:31
down. It is just such a great place to
1:34
work. It is such a great place to
1:36
practice law. So I'm very, very happy.
1:38
Yes, when when we found out from the linear team that you were
1:41
joining, Jen and I were we're talking and we were very
1:44
pleasantly surprised to hear that you were joining the team.
1:47
Yeah, I'm, I'm very happy about it.
1:49
And you know, it's we Mark is so genuine and, and, and that
1:55
trickles down. I, I can't stress enough like
1:58
the, the, the level of compassion that Mark has and all
2:01
of the attorneys that Lanier have for the clients, it's
2:05
incomparable to any other firm, frankly.
2:07
And I'm not just saying that. I mean, it is it's, it's, it's
2:10
amazing. All right, one quick thing
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before we get into this episode. John and I are going to be at
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Mass Towards puertorico.com. Back to the show.
2:49
The first new litigation that you're working on at Lanier is
2:53
one that you just got off stage talking about at MTMP, straight
2:57
from the stage up to the studio, we are talking about Olympus
3:01
scopes. So for those who are not in the
3:05
audience and are not yet aware of what this litigation actually
3:08
is, can you just give like the high level overview and then
3:10
we'll get into some of the details about the case?
3:13
So Olympus, first of all, is the number one manufacturer of
3:18
endoscopes. Endoscopes is the broad term for
3:22
There's more specific scopes, but if you have ever had the
3:25
pleasant experience of, for example, having a colonoscopy,
3:29
then you would have encountered a scope.
3:31
That particular scope is called a colonoscope because it's used
3:35
in a colonoscopy. There's also duodenoscopes used
3:38
in a procedure called ERCP. There's bronchoscopes used in
3:43
the the procedures where they actually scope the lungs.
3:47
There's the upper GI, they're called gastroscopes and that's
3:50
for upper endoscopy. So whenever the esophagus is is
3:55
looked at, those are the four main scopes that we are looking
3:59
at for this litigation. And what's very important to
4:01
know about them is that they are reusable.
4:04
This litigation has an ick factor like no.
4:07
Other I know when we we started learning about it and it like
4:11
peeling back the layers and really understanding what
4:13
happened it it you know it is. It's it's gross.
4:18
I mean, it will make you rethink what you thought was a routine
4:22
procedure, a routine, you know, hey, it's just that time, it's
4:25
that age. You will never feel the same
4:27
about it again. So let me tell you about the
4:29
numbers. Numbers wise, Olympus, and this
4:33
is Olympus's own data, OK? This is not something that we've
4:37
tried to generate from various sources.
4:39
This is Olympus saying this. There's about 30 million
4:42
procedures a year that utilize this Olympus the reusable scope,
4:47
OK. And the complications that are
4:51
seen, they happen at a a rate that is frankly unacceptable
4:56
that when you break it down even conservatively, the
4:59
complications that we're seeing happen about 30 thousand of
5:02
these cases per year. It's a lot it it is a lot it is,
5:07
it is a lot. It's an unacceptable number and
5:10
to be you know, to be clear, these are not patients that are
5:15
going in because they have some, you know, significant issue when
5:19
they're having a surgery with the surgery is is a scope that's
5:23
going down. And so you've got a patient
5:25
who's open. No, no, these are routine.
5:28
What you think are just no complications at all type
5:31
procedure that these are happening in these
5:34
complications, what's happening you might be wondering, OK, well
5:39
the scope again is reusable and it's designed in such a way that
5:46
it is impossible to clean to fully clean.
5:50
And So what happens is, is if a scope is used in a patient who
5:54
let's say has a super bug or multi drug resistant Organism
5:59
inside of them, and then it's reused on you because of the
6:03
fact that it was impossible to clean.
6:05
Even if you follow the instructions for use, that's the
6:08
little pamphlet that comes with every device.
6:10
If you follow those instructions to the tee as a provider, those
6:14
scopes are still not clean and that super bug gets transferred
6:17
into the next patient, which could be you.
6:19
And that's disturbing. I'm not going to the doctor ever
6:22
again. Colonoscopy is off the table
6:24
for. Me, I know.
6:25
There's no like sheath that goes on top that they use to like
6:29
ensure that it's completely clean.
6:32
You would think that and they absolutely could do that.
6:35
And so there are ways to make these scopes safer, but they
6:39
have chosen not to, as is typical with unfortunately with
6:44
so many of these companies is they choose profits over
6:47
patients, profits over safety. Classic story.
6:51
I'm understanding how you get potentially the injury you're
6:55
scope is using some inside somebody not fully clean used
6:59
again inside somebody stuff we get transferred.
7:01
You'd say what are like the injuries that we're seeing or
7:03
the complications that have been arising, like 30,000 of them?
7:07
Sure. So the the number one, the most
7:09
predominant one are these super bugs, these infections.
7:13
And what we're seeing and we've talked to several experts in the
7:16
field. We have an infectious disease
7:19
doc who we talked to regularly to help guide us on, you know,
7:22
what is a case, what is not a case and what what the
7:26
literature says is the, the latency period for these
7:30
infections could be a fairly extended amount of time.
7:35
But what's really critical is from the time of the scope
7:38
procedure to the onset of the infection, which happens fairly
7:43
quickly is about two weeks and up about up to 30 days.
7:47
So that's your window of time. It can onset as quickly as the
7:51
next day. And what happens is, is that
7:53
these bugs are so resistant to drugs, to any sort of antibiotic
7:59
that they, they enter the system notwithstanding, you know, IV
8:03
antibiotics, hospitalization. What happens is, is the body
8:07
goes septic and then the organs start to fail.
8:09
So that's one of the most common things that we're seeing.
8:12
And we were actually alerted to this by our expert who looks at
8:17
medical device reports or adverse event reports.
8:20
And they were, and the expert was seeing this very significant
8:24
pattern. And what's interesting about
8:27
this is that this company has been dinged by the FDA multiple
8:31
times. There's actually been a criminal
8:33
prosecution against the heads of the company because they have
8:37
failed to report the adverse events.
8:40
And even though they have major issues and reporting adverse
8:44
events, there's still a significant pattern that we're
8:46
seeing. Getting an actual criminal
8:50
investigation almost never happens in this world.
8:52
That is correct. You have to do some obscene, her
8:54
heinous things to really garner that attention.
8:57
That is correct. Unfortunately, yeah.
9:00
Has Olympus made any statements at all about their stance on
9:05
like, yes, these are clean. These infections may or may not
9:09
have been caused by the scopes. Olympus always, you know,
9:13
categorically denies any any sort of wrongdoing as as most
9:17
companies do. But interestingly, FDA ordered
9:20
them to do a study. So they did a 522 study where
9:25
they they had an expert in reprocessing or cleaning.
9:29
These devices follow the the instructions for use like to the
9:35
T perfectly using the Olympus reprocessors.
9:39
So Olympus also makes the cleaning device in many of these
9:42
cases. And about 60% of the time they
9:45
they stopped and they looked whether or not these things were
9:48
clean in multiple steps. And in each step there was a
9:51
failing rate and that is even when you follow the instructions
9:56
to the T their own study that was I think that was in 2018, it
10:02
was around that time. So they have been on notice of
10:06
these issues for years. Wow.
10:09
You said 2018 I. Believe it was 2018.
10:12
So eight years. At least that that was when FDA
10:15
said, OK, you have to do a study.
10:17
I'm not going to math eight years and 34. 140.
10:20
Thousand, yes, 240,000 potential people.
10:22
Right, right. Michigan education coming in
10:25
right there. Yeah, and and you asked about
10:27
injuries. Yeah.
10:29
That was actually fast math. I'm very impressed.
10:32
So you asked about injuries. You know, the Super bug is 1.
10:36
The other thing that we're seeing in the literature is on
10:38
these bronchoscopes, if somebody has tuberculosis, they basically
10:43
think about this. They take the tuberculosis
10:45
patient, they scope them, and then because these things can't
10:48
be cleaned, they insert them into another patient and they're
10:50
just taking this tuberculosis and putting it right into the
10:53
next patient. There's even literature that
10:56
reports this has happened with HIV infections, which is just
11:00
awful. It it's you're speechless,
11:04
right? It's.
11:06
The the the rage and frustration I would have.
11:09
I got sick from my medical provider giving me a virus or
11:15
bacteria from a piece of medical equipment.
11:17
I'm going for routine procedure that's preventative procedure.
11:22
And then I'm in the hospital getting IV antibiotics, fighting
11:25
for my life is it's like, what's the first rule?
11:28
Do no harm. Right, exactly.
11:31
These are routine procedures and these are done in otherwise
11:33
healthy people. And and to be clear, our ID
11:37
expert says that these superbugs that you don't just get them,
11:40
you know, somebody, a normal patient, otherwise healthy, even
11:44
with some comorbidities here and there off the street, you do not
11:48
have one of these superbugs. So the only way, unless there's,
11:51
there's some exceptions, for example, like dialysis patients,
11:54
they're constantly in a hospital environment.
11:56
They already have a compromised system.
11:58
So maybe a patient like that, you know, but very rarely are
12:02
you going to have these these routine procedures where a
12:05
patient is, is hosting a super bug.
12:07
And so when you go in and the only thing that has happened to
12:11
you from the time you get this nasty infection is the scope
12:14
procedure. I mean that what else could it
12:18
be, right? Are you seeing that it's the
12:20
types of infections or bacteria that specifically like live
12:23
outside of the body for extended periods of time that are
12:26
recurring? So the key this is for the, the
12:29
lawyers who are looking at these cases, the key is you want to
12:31
make sure that it's a gram negative bacteria because those
12:35
are the ones that are not, that are not just off the street.
12:38
So for the the the staff and things like that, where they're
12:41
kind of staff is just on everybody's.
12:42
Skin. I can just touch you.
12:44
If I have it, you get it. Right, exactly.
12:46
And So what you're looking for when you're looking at these
12:48
cases is a gram negative. The other type of injury that
12:52
we're seeing, I will tell you about this, but I also want to
12:54
caution lawyers who are looking at these cases is perforation
12:58
cases. So what is happening because,
13:01
and this is a, this is a topic near and dear to my heart
13:04
polymers, right? Because you know, You sure?
13:06
Do love polymers? Hernia mesh queen.
13:08
Is that because of this reprocessing happens over and
13:11
over and over again that the polymer itself actually breaks
13:14
down? And So what we've seen in the
13:16
adverse event reports as well as clients who call us is that
13:20
during the procedure itself, the device falls apart.
13:24
It starts to essentially shed plastic and that can Pierce the
13:27
bowl. That is an injury to be aware
13:30
of. The caution though, here's a
13:32
major caution is be very careful about how you advertise and, and
13:39
put that messaging out, because what happens is, is that the
13:42
patients who maybe had a perforation because a doc made a
13:46
mistake or something slipped and then the scope itself perf the
13:49
bowel, you might get those cases.
13:51
Those are not cases we're pursuing just because there's,
13:54
there's a, a, an issue with, OK, that's not really the scope's
13:58
fault, that's the doc's fault, right?
14:00
So just be careful on that. But that is absolutely something
14:03
we're seeing the adverse events, it's a injury that we're
14:06
investigating and we be we believe will be part of the
14:08
consolidated. Action.
14:10
This is something that could potentially affect anyone.
14:14
Are you seeing it more in certain cohorts of patients,
14:20
Men, women, ages? So gender doesn't seem to do
14:24
matter other than just the type of procedure that might be more
14:28
common for certain genders. Age only what we're seeing is
14:32
just because as you, you know, as you reach that age of 45 and
14:36
above, you start to get these these, you know, routine
14:40
procedures just to make sure everything's, you know, going
14:44
OK. And so that's where the age
14:46
comes into play. But as far as susceptibility to
14:49
it, even children can get this, which is really disturbing.
14:52
So if if let's say you're your five year old is having some GI
14:56
issues, the GI doc just wants to do a scope procedure to make
15:00
sure there's nothing going on. That five year old is just as
15:03
susceptible as, as you know, the 45 year.
15:06
Old the age breakdown is just pretty much correlates the
15:09
amount of people getting scopes. Right, exactly.
15:11
For people who are listening, who are not lawyers who want to
15:16
avoid this issue, what is their alternative knowing that they
15:19
need to get a colonoscopy, right?
15:22
I turned 44 two days ago. 40 fives coming up real quick,
15:25
right? I have to get a colonoscopy
15:26
soon. I don't.
15:28
I can't tell my doctor. Hey, don't order a lab with an
15:31
Olympus scope, right? It's so prevalent.
15:33
What are the alternatives? So there are disposable scope.
15:35
So #1A disposable scope is is one way also.
15:39
The other thing that needs to happen is that providers need to
15:41
be made aware of this issue. And so not only is this a design
15:44
defect case, but this is a failure to warn case as well,
15:48
because the providers are not made aware of the fact that even
15:51
if you use a Lympus reprocessor, even if you follow the
15:54
instructions to the T, there are things that need that you need
15:57
to do to ensure that you're not transmitting into otherwise
16:02
healthy patients. So for example, doctors need to
16:05
be warned that if they're using a scope on a patient with HIV,
16:09
that that scope should be thrown away.
16:11
If they're using it on a patient who clearly has had has some
16:15
issues, you know, with maybe they're, they're more
16:17
susceptible to MDR OS or super bugs that should be thrown away
16:21
there. So there are things that can be
16:23
done. And the answer to your question
16:27
is, is one that I know that Olympus is going to, is going to
16:31
be fighting us tooth and nail on.
16:32
And so we're prepared to bring experts forth, talk about all of
16:36
the ways that these could be made safe.
16:38
Usually when these types of new cases come out, right, attorneys
16:42
are looking at what is the, the best way for me to find these
16:46
cases in my existing client portfolio, right?
16:51
Knowing now that it's, I'm just going to say generally skews
16:54
like middle agent up right with with some edge cases.
16:58
Knowing that the gender really doesn't make a difference,
17:00
though, I would say probably skews more male because of the
17:02
colonoscopies. What do you feel like should be
17:07
done to acquire these types of cases if you're like a local or
17:12
regional personal injury? Well, this is one of those cases
17:16
where I think you can go any medium.
17:19
You can do the social media route, you could do television
17:22
advertising. Really any medium is going to is
17:27
going to capture the attention, I think of somebody who had a
17:31
scope procedure and then landed in the hospital for weeks,
17:35
sometimes at a time organ failure.
17:37
And in sad cases we've we've had several actual, you know, just
17:41
deaths where scope procedure and then these patients die within
17:46
days to weeks of the scope procedure.
17:48
So it's really just whatever, you know, talk to talk to you
17:52
guys, for example, and figure out what makes the most
17:56
financial sense as far as getting the message out, because
18:00
that's what this is about, right?
18:01
I mean, there's so much criticism from the defense side
18:06
about attorney advertising. But if it weren't for how would
18:10
you know exactly it is these are true health crises.
18:14
And if it weren't for the plaintiffs spar getting this
18:17
messaging out through entities like you guys, you know, then,
18:21
then these patients wouldn't be the wiser because the providers,
18:24
the doctors, they don't know either.
18:26
I mean, don't forget these doctors and these providers,
18:29
these hospitals, they're victims too of the manufacturer failing
18:33
to tell them what the manufacturer clearly knows and
18:38
is on notice of. So get the word out, because
18:41
patients need to be aware that this is a real issue in a real
18:44
health crisis, frankly. Do you think you're going to run
18:46
into the same issue like harking back to the hernia mesh days
18:50
where people are like I was affected by this but I have no
18:53
idea which manufacturer it was or is it Olympic scope?
18:56
Just so common that the odds are if they got a scope procedure it
18:59
was probably Olympus. First one, 100%, nobody knows
19:02
what scope they're getting, OK? You're going to have to get the
19:05
medical records when we were first looking at these cases.
19:08
We've been looking at this case for on the better part of a year
19:10
now. OK, studying it, looking at the
19:14
records, we were, we were really concerned that product ID was
19:17
not going to be as obvious, right?
19:19
Because it's not an implant, it's not something where here's
19:22
a surgical sticker that was, you know, stuck on the record.
19:25
And this is the this is the vice that is in you.
19:28
But it turns out in these procedures usually it's actually
19:32
quite clear. Sometimes it's in big bold.
19:34
It just says Olympus. So the next part of your
19:37
question is, yes, about 85% or higher of the time is going to
19:43
be one of these Olympus Scouts. They have a camera in them,
19:45
right? That's the whole concept.
19:46
So probably in the picture it says like taken by this model or
19:50
by Olympus or something. Right, there's actually several
19:52
places in the medical records that you can find it.
19:55
The procedure note itself is probably the best place.
19:58
This is the very same Olympus that makes cameras.
20:01
Fuji's also a player. Same one that makes cameras.
20:05
I just clicked for me just right now.
20:07
I just thought some. Just a coincidence.
20:10
No, no, that this is, this is actually kind of what they've
20:13
gone to. For those who don't know, in the
20:15
marketing world, product liability cases for medical
20:18
devices are like the hardest, not the heart.
20:20
It's a very difficult for us because no one knows what they
20:22
have inside them. That's right, right.
20:24
Well, they are because you know, when a when a client calls up,
20:27
they just know they've had a scope procedure, they know that
20:30
within days or weeks of that scope procedure, they were
20:33
hospitalized and then you have to go and do the legwork.
20:36
Just like any of these cases, you know, these these cases are
20:40
not for the faint of heart. You actually have to do the
20:43
work. And you know, just going back to
20:45
let me just plug the linear law firm.
20:49
You know, we actually the order of the medical records, we do
20:51
the legwork, we get the records on the front end and that is so
20:55
key because you have to know what you have.
20:57
And the other thing is the injury records, you have to have
21:00
all of that. And sometimes it's an extensive
21:02
hospitalization. So while we always ask the
21:05
clients, because the clients can get the records the fastest, you
21:08
know, hey, try to help us try to go on the my chart always
21:13
excellent. If the, the the client I
21:15
plaintiff, potential plaintiff comes in with the medical
21:18
records so we can quickly investigate it.
21:20
But if not, if for whatever reason they can't, you know,
21:23
we're going to do that that legwork.
21:25
Which is why if you do come upon one of these cases, there is no
21:28
one better to send those cases to you than Kelsey, who working
21:31
with David Hobbs on this case, right, would be reviewing these.
21:35
I will tell you that your comments about the firm and
21:39
their professionalism, their care for clients permeate
21:41
through the entire organization. Attorneys who refer cases into
21:45
the firm work directly with Dwana, who runs intake, to make
21:48
sure that any of the cases that are being sent over are the the
21:51
correct cases. They're working on communication
21:53
with the clients collaboratively.
21:54
Like you guys do a really great job.
21:56
Oh yeah, our Dewana, our intake department ran by Dewana is is
22:00
fantastic. I can't speak highly enough
22:03
about them. And David Hobbs, of course, who
22:05
has been my partner in crime for over a decade and we we've
22:09
worked hand in hand. He's a client whisperer, you
22:12
know, I can't tell you. It's like he is on the phone so
22:15
much with clients and they they feel cared about.
22:19
You know I can't speak highly enough of David Hobbs.
22:21
Because. Because they are.
22:23
They are. Yeah, they absolutely are.
22:25
I think, you know, going back to the attorneys in their local
22:29
markets who may be able to activate their existing client
22:32
audiences. I think, you know, just the fact
22:35
that this is such a widely, such a widely used procedure and item
22:40
that really sending out an e-mail to your e-mail newsletter
22:43
list, like with just an alert, right?
22:45
Like mention the fact that Kelsey literally today was
22:49
talking about this in front of a room full of attorneys is
22:52
actively investigating. It's not consolidated yet,
22:55
right? But it's on its path to being
22:57
consolidated that your clients need to be aware that this is
23:01
going on. And if they had a scope or one
23:04
of their family members had a scope and it led to one of these
23:06
hospitalizations, that more than likely, right, 85 to 90% chance
23:12
that there is some sort of a correlation there with the
23:14
procedure that they had. And they should reach out to
23:16
your firm. And then your firm should then
23:19
reach out to you and, you know, investigate the claim.
23:21
Yeah, absolutely. And you bring up an excellent
23:24
point. We were thinking about where
23:26
what type of overlap in clients that we've represented
23:29
previously or that many of the people watching have
23:32
represented. And if you think about it any
23:34
time like Zantac where there there were issues with the
23:37
esophagus, most of those people had a scope procedure done,
23:40
hernia mesh, they had bowel issues.
23:43
And so in many instances before they realized that it was the
23:46
mesh, maybe they had a colonoscopy done.
23:48
And so look at your case, the cases that you have worked on
23:52
previously and think about is there an overlap in patients who
23:56
who may have had a scope procedure as part of of just
23:59
kind of trying to diagnose other things?
24:01
Real quick update, just because we're six months since our last
24:05
conversation, can you give everybody an update on where we
24:08
are currently at with hernia mesh?
24:09
I feel like any stage I am on, I have to touch on hernia mesh and
24:12
I'm glad to do it. I think he'll be working on
24:14
hernia mesh well and my kids will be probably graduated from
24:19
college. As many know, we you know, we
24:21
reached a global deal with Bard. Bard has been, you know, we have
24:25
worked closely with Bard and, and in making this deal work.
24:28
Payments have been going out. The traditional pay cases are
24:31
going to be receiving offers it it is going well.
24:34
It is you know, I'm administering counsel of that
24:37
and I'm my Co administering counsel.
24:40
Mike Russo is phenomenal to work with.
24:42
And then of course the special masters, Ellen Reisman, John
24:44
Jackson, Adrian Tease, Doug Shriner, all have been
24:48
fantastic. Have a case in the district of
24:50
Massachusetts that's coming up that we're trying a case against
24:53
against the different defendant in July.
24:56
So we're looking forward to that.
24:57
If you have any questions about hernia mesh, please reach out to
25:01
me. I, I know the insurance and outs
25:04
of it. And so it's, it's, it's such a
25:06
broad question. I I, I feel like I did not do it
25:09
justice, but just reach out to me.
25:10
That's a good update also for those listening or watching, if
25:14
you're like, hey Kelsey, when am I going to get my money?
25:16
That's a great question. You should watch our episode
25:18
with Gary from Archer that we recently released on the channel
25:21
about the Mass Tort supplement process and getting funds
25:24
distributed. Yeah.
25:25
It is a long process. It is a long process.
25:28
There's the whole long process of litigation.
25:30
And then what plaintiffs need to be made aware of is that the
25:33
settlement process itself then takes a significant amount of
25:36
time, especially when the agreement actually contemplates
25:42
a long, you know, a longer amount of time.
25:44
And so, you know, don't, don't get, Please be patient.
25:47
It's just, it's a process. And as you mentioned, Speaking
25:50
of Archer, the lean resolution process, just so everybody
25:53
knows, there is a subrogation right in, in every single
25:57
private insurers contract. So there's a contractual right
26:00
to subrogation for treatment that was related and it was the
26:03
fault of another party. And then there's an actual
26:05
statute that Medicare is entitled to recover.
26:09
So we we have to check those boxes in order to get and to
26:12
make sure that all of us, including the plaintiff,
26:15
including our clients don't get in trouble for not following the
26:18
law. I'm not going to ask you about
26:19
the Super secret things that you are investigating.
26:22
We'll talk about that in six months.
26:24
We'll see what the next thing is.
26:25
But for right now, the topic of the moment is Olympus Scopes.
26:29
Everybody who's watching this should be aware.
26:32
Whether you are a someone who is potentially affected by this or
26:35
a law firm seeking to make your clients aware about this, there
26:39
is no better resource than Kelsey and David at Lanier to
26:42
talk to this about. Thank you so much once again for
26:45
joining us. Thank you so much for having me,
26:46
it's been so much fun and I can't wait to come on.
26:49
I want to keep this tradition rolling.
26:50
I'll see you every six months for whether the next update is
26:53
for those who have questions. Lawyers on that either have
26:55
questions about the case or want to refer you cases.
26:58
What's the best e-mail now that you have a new e-mail?
27:00
Kelsey.stokes@lanierlawfirm.com. So that's Kelsey dot
27:06
tokes@lanierlawfirm.com. Awesome.
27:10
Thank you again, Kelsey. Thank you so much.
27:11
Yeah, and we'll see you at the next MTMP.
27:13
Excellent, looking forward to it.
27:15
For anybody who is watching, do not forget to like and subscribe
27:19
to the John and Mark podcast. They are a must see.