Latest / The Marketing Brief / Andrew & Brian Catch-up After a Training Course and Disucss Training our Bots (S2 E11)
Transcript
- Brian: Hello, and welcome back to the Marketing Brief Podcast. I am your host, Brian Aquan, and this is the podcast where we talk about really anything in the marketing sphere. We kind of go wide and far. we do need a guest to do that, though. I can't just do that on my own. So today we are very excited to be joined by Andrew Fryer. Andrew, welcome into the podcast. Andrew Fryer: Brian, thank you for having me on this very toasty Tuesday. Brian: It is pretty warm in Southern California, isn't it? Andrew Fryer: Yeah. I I I think that we all thought we were going to have some type of Indian summer 'cause it was very mild at the beginning of July and then all of a sudden it just came with a vengeance. So yes, we're we're trying Brian: Yeah. And s and Andrew Fryer: to stay cool. Brian: and you're native. You y you know Southern California summer starts in late August and goes for like two more months. So we're just starting it. Andrew Fryer: Th I will always remember trick-or-treating on Halloween in shorts one year and that still kind of blows my mind because there are times where Halloween is is definitely warm. So yes, this I I'm just hoping that we only have about a month of this left and then it'll start to taper off. But you know, we'll see it. yeah. Brian: Well, you, you you're a longtime friend, longtime colleague, and we just kind of bumped into each other again and kind of reconnected. But do you wanna introduce yourself to the listeners of the podcast, what it is you're working on? Andrew Fryer: Yeah, so hi everybody in Brian's world. I'm Andrew Fryer. I currently work at Zynga in brand partnerships. I just hit year 19 technically in media, and I have done a multitude of things within the space. prior to media, I worked in the talent agency world. I got my MBA. I went back and got a third degree in screenwriting. So you could say I'm overeducated. but yeah, I've been very fortunate to work in this intersection of media, entertainment, consumer behavior, what have you. And I think we're in such an interesting time where we've seen over the last probably ten plus years this true flattening where there's no longer the hierarchy of movies, TV. radio, etc. And everything is now very much horizontal. And if you aren't touching all forms of media, I think you're probably missing out, is is really the the thesis in today's environment. Brian: Yeah, I know. Entertainment has really changed. you're a dinosaur like I am. You've seen a lot of change. one of the things we talk a lot about is AI here because it right before we started recording, we're talking about how, you know, we live through the Internet of Things, which was so interesting. Obviously, programmatic, mobile, just even digital media being like big disruptors in the space, but You know, the the one right now is AI. And I think the biggest difference, even though I can see a lot of similarities to all of those things, especially the Internet of Things, which was really all about automation. But the biggest difference that's defining AI right now is the rate of change. Do you agree with that? Andrew Fryer: I absolutely agree. And it's one of those just points in time where I think if you look at real estate, you know, they say that the best time to get in real estate was 50 years ago. The second best time is today. And I Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: think it's kind of a a perfect analogy of being just curious and saying, Okay, I'm just going to dive in because the way everything is changing, acceleration. adoption, all of these specific refinements. And I know that there's a big debate with AGI right now. And a lot of you know those features are being not necessarily suppressed, but I think that there's a lot of fear around what that's going to look like. And obviously we're we're not privy to what's going on with those models and those changes. But I think it's something that you just have to start trying, testing, and seeing, seeing what it can do. And it's not biased towards you, which is great. It's it's Brian: Mm-hmm. Andrew Fryer: something that is going to only help you if Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: you treat it that way. Brian: Yeah, I'd love to ask you this. I mean, you've been in the gaming space. is the gaming consumer open to AI creative as as much as they are to any other creative? Andrew Fryer: So it's a good question. I do have a colleague who tested out building a game just you know from pure idea through I don't know what tool he used on Gemini, but I think that Gaming consumers are definitely quote unquote open. But I think it actually looks at a larger question around creativity because you still appreciate the artist. And I'm always going to appreciate the artist as an artist myself. If I have an idea, it might just be something for me to enjoy as it relates to, you know, creating a game or something along those lines. But like this is no plug, but obviously Grand Theft Auto 6 is coming out and If you were to say, I'm gonna create my own GTA, sure, you can attempt to go through all of the layers and the tools, but there's a reason why you have a team of people that are creating this bespoke experience. And I just think, you know, the gaming consumer, you could say is almost the regular consumer where Maybe they're they're trying and coming up with those ideas, but it's never going to take away from the creativity and the originality of the brands that we've grown to love and continue to deliver franchises and even original ideas. Brian: Yeah, much much like any entertainment property. There are sex that are into autors and artist driven material versus, you know, just graphic driven material. So it's like, yeah, why isn't the gaming consumer just like the regular consumer? Sure. Andrew Fryer: Totally, totally. Brian: I want to ask you about your personal use of AI, because you and I connected at this formal media training that we were both in, which was really great. It really helped. me kind of discover different things about AI and and and how I'm using it. w how I guess since that class, has have things changed for you? Have I've like have you opened up or is there anything like surprising that you've figured out about your use of AI? Andrew Fryer: Yeah, it's a great question. So for me, I would say that the Forma Media class was incredible, just as somebody who had been a novice in my AI use, but really thinking and understanding that it comes down to prompting. And for anybody who doesn't really know what that is, like the prompt is basically what your level of input is to figure out what the desired outcome slash task is. And the tool only gets better the more information you feed into it. But one of the best or my favorite phrases that I think it was Yo who said it, that it is your most eager intern. And I think that when you start to realize that it's pretty powerful. And you also can lean into knowing It's not going to be perfect. And there are times, and I deal with this on a daily basis, where a lot of the ideas might really be pretty shitty. But those shitty ideas will then open you up to, wait a second, this actually is a really good idea. I was using it recently and at work, we currently use we actually have an aggregator of all of the LM LL hems. But we're primarily using Gemini and Claude. And I recently, for a a brief, as I was ideating on on some things, like I I fed the prompt into both Gemini and the Claude. And I and I've been doing that lately to kind of litmus test to see which is there gonna be something common. Am I gonna have a better idea from one LLM versus the other? And what I noticed this last week in working on a brief. It came up with some both of them came up with some pretty bad ideas. And then I had an idea based on those really bad ideas. I then fed that idea into both and both LLMs love the idea. So I was like, okay, wait a second. This is actually a really this is a great brainstorming tool because it might just give you a lot of bad thrash, Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: what have you. But if you can understand that and say, this just might be a really big idiot, a really eager idiot who's just throwing random things and they're looking at the baseline, but it then gets your wheels turning to say, okay, it's going to come up with something that actually could be very cool. Brian: Yeah. That's a that's a great example. I I think of it similarly, like the iteration I can do with Chat GPT really helps me get my thinking out. and again, you know, crap in, crap out. So it's like you've gotta understand prompting, which I I always find it funny that we have this new technology and then we come up with new terminology with it, which is just really it's almost gatekeeping. It's like keeping people away. It's like But you're just talking to it, right? Prompting is just talking. It's just saying, here's all the information I have. What do you think about what we should do? but it is so important to set that up and say, as a marketer, I'm like, okay, here's the consumer, here's the trend that's going on. How what should the execution be? It's like you have to feed that information in in terms of a prompt in order to get something useful back. And then that's really just for me, it's it's just starting the process, right? And really helps. it in my writing, in in my strategy work, it really helps me to just get going 'cause it's like, all right, here's a lot here's a bunch of ideas to get your brain started to go and now I can feed off of those ideas. So that's my thought partner essentially. Andrew Fryer: Yeah, I and I totally agree. And the thing that I've been finding is let's just say we get dinged on a proposal. I have a specific chat that is all about client rebuttals, and Brian: Mm. Andrew Fryer: I'll feed in why we didn't win, and I'll ask it to craft either a rebuttal or some type of response. And typically what I will do with that is it's a little too salesy for me. Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: And it's and it Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: doesn't really go with my personality, but it gives me a baseline to edit it and then say, Brian: Yes. Andrew Fryer: okay, this is more in my voice. And it's not taking away from my creativity/slash like my brain power of actually crafting something. It's just removing a step and Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: really just being a little bit more efficient because I don't want to necessarily come back and say, well, you haven't thought about us because of X, Y, and Z. And I and I think that. A lot of the times, especially even when you're just doing a baseline email to somebody, these LLMs are going to take what they have gleaned just throughout the web as they've been fed, but they're going to be better if you could actually upload, paste emails that you have written. So it starts to understand your voice. And it's never going to be exactly in our voice. But it will at least have an idea of, okay, this is the approach that you like to take. And I'm going to hopefully mirror that so I can then be a better partner to you. Brian: Yeah. And a guest on this podcast had referred to it as the calculator of our times, right? Which I really liked because it puts it back in the tool category. And something that Brett Whalen at at Forma stressed to us was domain domain experience, right? What you bring to AI and to that experience is what makes the output much better, right? You just put a novice in front of there, you're gonna get novice stuff back. But if you actually bring what you know within your domain and of knowledge, mine being marketing, yours also being marketing, sales, now now you're powerful, right? Now you have a powerful tool with a powerful mind. One plus one kind of equals three in that equation, I guess. Andrew Fryer: So it's a great cliche. It's it's it's it's very true. I think Brian: Yeah, it works. Andrew Fryer: I think with the class also, and I found this to be interesting. and we we get briefs from clients who specifically say, please do not use AI in this, you will not be considered, and you're not allowed to feed in the briefs. And I and I abide by that. I mean, because I value those relationships that I've built. but obviously there are partners who don't care as much. And what we'll do is vote in a brief. But what has been kind of a recurring theme is it might not necessarily know everything about the nuances of the business. However, Forma that day was incredible with having us learn how to properly kind of not even program, but just give the right input so it can get a better understanding of what we are doing on a daily basis. the thing that I actually really have loved so after we have a meeting we tend to do these write-ups called meeting reports and now thankfully with Zoom you know Zoom has an AI note companion and any call I have I obviously because you have to have consent I will ask our partners Are you okay if I turn on our AI note companion? And nine times out of ten, they'll say yes. I actually had one recently where they said they can't. So it was not a it was not a problem for me to just manually take notes. But obviously reducing that to being able to just really be present and then having this tool so I don't have to be scrambling to write every little word down, and obviously you're gonna miss some things, but having that. had on is just been so invaluable. And I can then take a sample meeting report that I've done in the past, take those notes, use Gemini or Claude and have it help me craft a report. I would say though, a lot of the times like the reports are a little too they're a little too buttoned up. And it's like this is not necessarily I mean, I'm buttoned up in general, but the style is it may be a little too formal. So Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: There there are a lot of times where I might just do it 'cause it might even be faster than me having uploaded it, having it spit it out, and then by the time I edit it, I'm like, okay, I probably could have done this faster Brian: Right. Andrew Fryer: just if I did it myself. Brian: An interesting idea though, in in like keeping that log line of just like because you're building relationships over a long term, right? So it's like going back to the last call, to the call you had a year ago. having something that logs that and can recall it at just a moment's notice. That's really powerful for you. Andrew Fryer: It's been invaluable in that sense. I will say though that there are times where it's a little too eager, if you will. And I I'm a positive person, but there are times where it's like I've had to like not so much get mad at it, but I'll say you're wasting my time. But I'm always polite. I think that if you're mean, it's obviously not going to necessarily be as as helpful, but I treat it as I I treat it with manners in that sense because I just Brian: Interesting. Andrew Fryer: think it's it's going to be you're going to get better results. But if it's Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: something, if it's a bad output, I will say, you're wasting my time. This was this was not good. You know, so at least it understands. I'm not scolding it, you know, and reprimanding it and more just saying this this was not good, but I'm doing it in a way that hopefully is pushing it to to get better. Brian: Yeah. And the training is important. You gotta train your bots. I was having a conversation with someone yesterday who was like, it's always so flowy and complementary of of my ideas. And I was like, Well, you can change that. Like I have specifically told my my AI bots, like, challenge me, right? Like, challenge my thinking. I want to get to a better place of thinking. I don't want you to just say everything I type into here is is gold and flowers and should go out, should go out immediately as strategy. Like d Challenge me. Let me know where I where I need to to work on it. Andrew Fryer: Well, I think the hallucinations are very real. I I still can't get over what Brett and Yo told us about that court case where those attorneys used they used it for discovery and it fabricated a whole case and that Brian: Okay. Andrew Fryer: attorney got disbarred. The law firm had some sanctions against it, and I think that you just You have to scrutinize everything that comes out of it. Brian: Yeah. Yes. Andrew Fryer: And that's a but that's a good thing though, because Brian: Yes. Andrew Fryer: it's not even cutting corners. It's more about saying, Okay, this is really interesting, but I need to make sure that this is actually accurate and it is giving me another good idea, et cetera, et cetera. But Brian: But my gosh, I can't stress this enough. Edit your your com Edit the information that's coming out of there because people will know you just took this from the bot, dumped it in, it's full of dashes. There's spaces where there shouldn't be spaces. You need to edit it. Andrew Fryer: Well, the the thing that's been blowing my mind, and I really hope that people are hip to this, but I get served so much just I guess we can call it AI slop on Instagram, Facebook of like these fake fitness, health, lifestyle influencers that are clearly AI. Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Fryer: I got served one yesterday by a guy or a you know, it was a total fabrication. I'm 71 years old and I am in the greatest shape of my life. And if you actually look at the way it's talking, like this was AI generated, I'm I'm really terrified of people think that. Come on, like, do you really think this is real? Like you can look Brian: I know. Andrew Fryer: at the way it's all running. I mean, I I think that, you know, there was obviously a big scare with the Tom Cruise Brad Pitt action fight that was generated and know everybody's like Hollywood's done and people know that those things are they're just they're fan Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: that it's it's fan fiction it's like it's Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: not necessarily the gospel so but I do think that you know technology will evolve and you're Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: going to have you know certain sign-offs and things like this is going to work I mean I I think that there are really good opportunities and obviously A lot of big filmmakers are embracing it in certain workflows. So, Brian: Mm-hmm. Andrew Fryer: you know, I I have to be bullish where possible just because, you know, everybody was so afraid, I think, especially within our industry, when programmatic advertising came under into the market, that it was like, my God, it's going to eliminate all these jobs. And it actually created more jobs because you still need this human, this human touch. And I think as we were talking earlier, even you know, looking at customer service, there's this whole thesis that AI is going to completely just destroy that job function and you're not going to need customer service reps. And you and I both agree that I don't want to deal with a bot when I'm calling to either rectify something with, you know, a bill that I got that was incorrect, or Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: I'm looking for some item. I need to actually speak to a human. I I can't deal with the computer because the human is going to understand in theory, they're gonna understand the the problem that I'm calling about. They might not, but at the same time, at least I can have a conversation. Cause I still I want to put like my head through the wall anytime I'm like, agent, agent, you know, and it just keeps let me help you. Agent, agent now. And I don't want to start using Brian: Agent agent. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Fryer: expletives, but I will if I have to. I really don't want to be that person. Brian: If if I'm calling your company, it's because I have expended all the other options I have, right? That is not the thing I want to do, is call your company, right? I have tried Andrew Fryer: Yes. Brian: going online. I have tried maybe tweeting about it. I've done all of these things. I am at the end of my rope if I'm call if I'm calling you. I have a use case that is so odd that you haven't figured out the FAQ or any other way to solve my problem. So at that point, I need a human. That's that's what I need. Andrew Fryer: Yeah, I I couldn't agree more. So I I think if anything, I'm gonna hope that this is going to help us be more efficient. And it just comes down to technology adoption. And this is how it's always been. I mean, it's it happened when the internet debuted. It's like, okay, can you actually embrace these tools to see how they're going to how they're going to work? I mean, I think we can also laugh and look at, let's say, you know, the the NFT space. I mean, it I I know there are still there is still some value in digital collectibles, but That was something that's like, that's going to completely destroy the original, you know, baseball cards and Pokemon and all that stuff. And and and it didn't, you know, I mean it it had a good moment. But so I I think that people have to remember with these innovations, there is going to be a little bit of a shakeout, but you just really have to ride the waves. So Brian: Yeah. So gr great point. I think that's where we are right now. Are you still holding on to your monkey NFT art? Andrew Fryer: I I never my god, what what was the I'm blanking on the yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. The like bo like Brian: It like the monkey that all the celebrities were buying. I mean Andrew Fryer: board a board ape or something along those lines. It was something along yeah, something along those lines. Brian: Yeah, yeah. I mean there was never any there was never any utility to NFT. So that was like an Andrew Fryer: Yeah, I my Brian: easy one to like go back. You're like, this is there's no use for this. We're just it we're all in our homes. It's COVID and we need something to to buy. But your point Andrew Fryer: Yeah. Brian: of like where we are right now, I think yeah, we're always in an interesting time. But we're in an interesting time, I think, because I feel like the honeymoon is over for AI, right? Like companies might have used AI as kind of like a a shield to make layoffs. Right, because they were like, nope, we have too many people, we want to make layoffs, maybe we'll just blame it on AI. But they're also finding that it's very expensive to just institutionalize AI, have it be infrastructure for your organization. And then you also have to hire people to do the work, right? So I think there's the Wall Street Journal published an article this week about how big companies are are starting to hire again. And I think that's part of this of just like, I actually need workers. I I need young workers, I need old workers, like I need a whole spectrum of of people to to kind of continue. But I also saw another article and I'm writing a series on this right now about how librarians across the US are teaching people how to turn off their AI tools in their in their on their phones, on their smartphones. And I thought it was so interesting that it was libr librarians like leading this and like what's their standing and but it exists, right? Consumers are scared or worried or You know, thinking I can't be pro AI because I'm I'm anti-human that way. But I took those two articles together to kind of think about how w the honeymoon's over. Now, where is there, where's the use case? Where does it actually pay out for companies like you know, CFOs are looking at how much do I need to also balance with employees? So I think I think you hit it on the head there that it's we're moving into this next phase of of how AI gets incorporated into our work days. Andrew Fryer: Same. Brian: thank you for being a guest. Thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being part of my Los Angeles advertising community. I appreciate that. Andrew Fryer: It's like golden girls, you know. I I appreciate it. I mean, yeah, we we go back a very frighteningly long time, but at the same time, Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: it also feels like no time has passed. But no, I appreciate it. And it was so good seeing you at the the the Forma event. I mean, that was that was pretty funny. And I will say, to their credit, and I'm sure you agree, doing it in person as we are, you know, stuck to our computers, Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: human connection as we were learning something AI related. So Brian: Yeah. Andrew Fryer: I feel like that's a great way for everybody that to think about this next iteration that we're in. Brian: Yeah, I mean let's let's plug let's plug that form of media. I mean, we spent eight hours there, right? Like just like focused on it and you get so much out of that and doing it in a group where you can learn from the questions that other people have and the challenges that they're going through and how they're applying AI to to solve issues. So yeah, I th I thought it was a great, great program. Hats off to them. Andrew Fryer: Hundred percent. And and again, being in person versus us sitting, you know, at a cafe or at home doing it, like it just being in that group setting also really helped foster learning. So yeah. Brian: Yeah. Well, thank you for being a guest on the Marketing Brief podcast. I've really enjoyed having you here and talking to you, Andrew. Andrew Fryer: Same. Thanks for having me, Brian. I appreciate it. Brian: Awesome. And to the listeners, stay curious.