Latest / Nonprofit411 Podcast / Gold Mines of Stories - with Don Martelli, PR Bunker | Nonprofit411 Podcast
Transcript
- Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Nonprofit 411, the podcast for nonprofit professionals who are passionate about helping and still figuring out the rest. Each episode brings in experts who've worked with nonprofits, fundraisers, directors, and specialists for real conversations and real help you can use in your own work. I'm your host, Sarah Barton, the generosity strategist, and I'm joined today by Don Martelli, CEO of PR Bunker. Welcome, Don. Don Martelli: Thank you, Sarah. Congratulations on the success of the podcast and your work there. I'm excited to be here for this conversation. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Thank you. Me too. We haven't connected connected recently. And I love every time we get a connect because you do PR, which is a fascinating thing to me. It's something, you know, I know we need and I know a little bit about it, probably enough to be dangerous, but you know a lot about it. So and nonprofits need to know a lot about it. Don Martelli: They do. Yeah. I've former journalist for the Boston Globe. That's how I started. if couldn't tell from the accent. Yes, I'm from Boston. I don't park my can have yad, as they say. and through my journalism career I covered business and politics and then I jumped into public relations after those days. A lot of my clients have just a variety of industries I've worked in, but I really had a sweet spot for nonprofits and kind of mission driven. You know, even the corporate clients that had, you know, a corporate giving program, like that's the stuff that I really gravitated towards because it was always The hardest story to get placed is always the one that's the most positive. Because the media these days is all if it bleeds, it leads, right? It's war, it's politics, it's all the ugly stuff. and you know, we work with people that do incredible things and those stories have to be told. And so a handful of years ago when I spun up my own business because I wanted to kind of do my own thing, I was just honestly hell bent on working with really good people, doing good things. And if I could be the f person that carries that white flag into the the media storm and get stories placed. It's just one, it it it it drives awareness and I backtrack this. The last five years of the media coverage that I've created or got secured that has gone into direct marketing campaigns towards donors has raised about twelve and a half million dollars. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: That's awesome. Yeah, I love what you're you're saying because it's the reason I'm in nonprofit work too. Nonprofits are kind of the backbone of most communities. You know, we really depend on some amazing nonprofits. Most hospitals are nonprofits. A lot of education is nonprofit. for me, I'm always like after school care almost across the board is, you know, nonprofit. And and so And then there's all these other ones that are doing these amazing things and they're so seldom in the limelight. But Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: we when we lose them, we're devastated, you know, and Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: and we don't do enough to like lift them up and be like, wait, do you know about them? And so so how do you Don Martelli: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: like how do you go about helping a nonprofit when it comes to PR? Don Martelli: Yeah, I mean I I think nonprofits are great at telling people about their mission and asking them to donate or get you know, give their time, their talent, their treasure, as we always say. the one thing they're really bad at is honestly telling the impact story of the individuals to which that work impacts in some way, shape or form. So I kind of I I attack it like a reporter. I come into work with the executive director or the outreach team or whomever is on kind of on the on the ground doing the work that they do and just start interviewing them about the mission. And how it gets delivered and who delivers it and what's the process look like? How much money do you need? It how much of the dollar goes to the actual operations of the nonprofit versus the mission and things like that. So I kind of dig in. What I'm really looking for is very particular stories. And here's kind of a a sidebar how this works. So I work with an organization called Hearth. Hearth is focused on ending elder homelessness in Boston. Very specific, right? Homelessness, seniors, Boston. There's a woman by the name of Lisa. who works for hearth but at one point in her life found herself on the street in in all types of issues, you know, drug and addiction issues because of just being homelessness, being homeless. met our executive director at an on pro at an event on Boston Common kind of randomly. Then she got speaking to Hearth, get involved in the into the organization, gets clean, gets sober, gets housed, which is a long journey, but she got there. Now she helps people go through what she went through, which is an incredible story. and I have a friend of mine who's the health and human services reporter for the Boston Globe. And I but my reporter contacts, I'll check in with them from like probably every other week and just to say, Hey, what what what do you have cooking this week? How can I help? Right. and she's like, Hey, look, I'm working on affordable housing and seniors. I'm like, let me tell you about Lisa. And she goes, What do you and so I told Lisa story. And so what I try to do is when I go into these nonprofits, I want to find the micro. The micro that fits into the macro. In this particular case, the macro is affordable housing being such a big issue in this country, especially here in Boston where it's really expensive to live. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: You too. Don Martelli: And with a increasing amount of seniors on now on the street because th these are folks that either can't are getting priced out of their homes and after sixty five years in a in a house no longer can afford it and they have to be on the street. So I told her Lisa story and Lisa became the micro of this bigger. Like here's Lisa who's an example of what's going on in greater Boston. And that content, you know, it's a one and done deal. So what I do is I take that content and spin it into a kind of a a direct marketing campaign that existing and potential donors through a variety of channels. Their website, their blog, their newsletter, their social media channels, a podcast. So I repurpose the story. I kind of say market the marketing. And it's not about, hey, here's a story. Can you give us a million bucks? But rather, hey, Lisa's alive. Thank you. And that's all it is. Right. And that story itself raised nearly a quarter million dollars in a week through the campaign we run. So how do I do it? I go in like a reporter. pencil bottom behind my ear, my reporter notebook, and I go find the story. Then I go find ways to tell it. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, I think that you like have identified some key things that so many nonprofits need to understand. You know, one is that those individual stories are the stories that people that move people, right? That Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: as a reporter, you know, we're always looking for like what's the thing that's going to cause some type of emotive reaction inside a person. We want to make them happy, glad, sad, mad, whatever that is. We want to make that happen. And then it sounds like once you have kind of identified what that is, now we're just telling the story over and over again and getting it into the audience's Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: ears because that's a big piece of it, right? Don Martelli: Yeah. I mean, in in a a lot of back in the days, public relations was a thing where you'd develop a press release and you'd send that out to a variety of people all at once. What I try to do, knowing how the the reporter brain works, 'cause I was one at one point, they all want something that's exclusive to what they write about or talk about and that's important to them right now. 'Cause you know, if unless you're a curing cancer and ha and have raised a billion dollars to end world hunger, which probably It needs more than a billion bucks, by the way. news is really hard, right? You need a moment in time, something that's galvanized to get people to say, my God, have you heard this thing? So it's always hard to get these really soft, featury kind of stories placed. But if they fit if they're if they're the micro examples of bigger trends, it really works. So the the the the work is really following the trends that fit in and around the nonprofits you work with, Health and Human Services, you know, family dynamics, food insecurities, you know, animals, you name it. There's always trends happening with those cohorts and those people. And that's how does your nonprofit in some way, shape, or form, aid into that narrative in a micro macro kind of way? And then you gotta figure out well, if I took this story about Lisa and I pitched it out to the Sacramento bee in California, they're not gonna care because she's not from Boston. Hearth is in Boston. They're focused only on Boston. So there's some specificity in who you target. and it's not just a a newspaper. If if the story is visual, like if you're bringing in fifty puppies into a a cancer ward for kids, Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Don Martelli: that's a visual story the T V is gonna want. So it's just there's a recipe to news, right? This like you know this, as as somebody works in the nonprofit space, there's a recipe to get somebody to pay attention and give a dollar. Right? There's the methodology that works. Media is exactly the same way. It's just happening at the upper end of the funnel where it's more about, you know, shouting from the rooftops, but it's about the right story, the right time, the micro, macro, and then pitching the story to a reporter and and working through what I would call a decision tree. So if I what if I when I pitch that story to the Boston Globe, if they passed on it, I was probably gonna take it to one of the TV stations because, you know, th at Lisa has an office and there's some good visuals there. So I kind of like cherry pick who I pitch things to because if they have an exclusive story, it's only theirs. And it's gonna and it's gonna create this sort of mini ground swallow which is what I'm trying to I'm trying to light that match, which then sparks the marketing campaign, which is how the money gets raised. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, yeah. So what advice do you want all nonprofits to know about PR? Because like this is it's definitely a special skill. I feel like, you know, that's where like I always say I know enough to be dangerous because I know it's really, really important, but I don't Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: know all the nuances. As you're talking about I think about my one of you know, I do fundraising, but in the past I've written grants Don Martelli: Mm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: and I do the same thing that you're talking about because what I found is that everything ties into education, health. those are two huge ones. And then typically your social determinants of health. So those are anything that you know help that are related to you being healthy. And so I would tie all my grants into, and and it doesn't matter what the grant's for, man, it's gonna be something related to education and healthcare. It's always going to be part of that, right? Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: and so you're doing the same thing. How does a nonprofit, let's say they're not ready to invest in this yet, but they need to do a little bit for themselves. What do they do? Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, they're kind of already doing it, but they don't know they're doing it. They all have a website. They are all managing social media channels in some way, shape, or form. So they are telling stories. The problem is they're just doing the first two Ps, not the last one. They're doing they're doing they're doing their, you know, they're placing their product. The product is their mission. Their place is the environment to which they're working, Health and Human Services, you know, puppies and kittens and so on and so forth. So how do they go get the story? Well, it really takes those frontline workers, the executive director, the board member, everybody within the organization knows what they do and who they impact. But you've got to get as close to the people that are like in front of those you're impacting on a regular basis. Usually that's caseworkers, it could be the executive director, major donors. And sometimes it's not just the people that they're impacting, but it could be the people that are working for the organization that is just as a good story, right? So here's like And Lisa was one of those diamonds in the rough because she works for the organization but was a client. It's like the hair club for men, right? If I was the spitman for the hair club. so how would they do it? I mean, a as as you're hearing about cases or things happening within the organization, you and you're s you're hearing the the story of the impact, those things have to be collected. Somebody has to own that, right? So write your interview, write the story down, pull the narrative together, and then once you think you have a story, You gotta think the next step would be, well, where is this story best told? Like who could tell this story the best? Is it visual? Is it not visual? Is it like a a podcast or is it a byline article, which is somebody writing a piece that goes into the paper? Is it a is it a is it a trend piece? And how can I make this this person's individual story, which is emblematic of our mission, but how do I make it more important for this media outlet, this reporter at this particular time based on what they're covering right now? So if you pitch a story about You know, the advancements in AI to a reporter who covers education, that story has to be layered about well, how does AI impact any professors in the classroom? Right. It's gonna be relevant. So it's relevance, timeliness, and frankly, sometimes a little bit of good luck. If you hit the st hit the reporter Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Don Martelli: at the right time, it's like, you know, sometimes you get a bunch of mail and sometimes that mailer actually hits you, like, you what? I should donate to the organization. So the hardest thing to do is find the stories. Find them, collect because it's not just for media, but it's also for your own channels, which is your website. your email newsletter, your socials, but you need somebody internally to come like put the pencil behind their ear, report a notebook in the back pocket and go find the stories, collect them and put them somewhere. And then you need that collective team to figure out, well, like, how can we get this story on a loudspeaker? And then from there, once that stuff does run, you know, I I I equate media like a river. If you're standing by the river base, you can see everything floating by. The minute you walk away, that river is still raging on, right? So if I don't if I didn't read the Boston Globe that day. I might have never have saw saw Lisa's story. But I'm I subscribed to the Hearth newsletter. So I saw it there. they win the globe. Then I'm going to backtrack that, read the globe, and I'll it just connect. So in my business, we talk about paid, earn we talk about paid media, earned media, shared media, and owned media. Paid media is advertising, right? To billboards, that sort of stuff. Earned media is what I do. It's like I'm pitching stories to reporters, earning that coverage. Shared media is like. You would be a shared media partner of mine. So if you know, as you push out this podcast, I'm gonna push it out on my channels, which means I'm promoting your brand and what you do on my shared channels. And then and the own does everything you can control, which is your own podcast. So they have to go in there, find the story, figure out the micro example that ties to some sort of macro trend, because that's what the reporters want. Then from there, you're gonna develop the pitch. My advice is Your pitch should be no longer than 250 words. If you have to sell me the story, it's not a story. The story should actually be Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Don Martelli: the headline, which is the subject line of the email. Right? It's it should be that tight, that quick, and that impactful. And then in the body of the email, one single paragraph, hey Jim, saw you wrote on health and human services last week and the impact on affordability with with housing and seniors. Let me tell you about Lisa. Because you want the story to pick it for speaker itself. And then you kind of have to annoy them. You got to follow up maybe a day or two later and Maybe three or four days later and and kind of sequence that whole thing. and hopefully they'll respond to you. And two things, if they get back to you and say yes, great. Sometimes they may get back to you and say, not at this time, which is fine, follow up. Sometimes they'll never respond, which is basically the answer. So f for me a rule of thumb is once I find the story, massage it, pitch it out, and I don't get a response within like say a week, then I go to that next media outlet and I run that process again. And I keep working it until like I've explained everybody I think could write about this. And when I if I don't get anything secured, I'll go, you know what? Is the story is it timely enough? Is there something off with this? What else is happening in this space that I might be able to take advantage of to give it another little sort of some salt and pepper to tweak tweak it out? So the advice is find the stories, collect them and then put them into the machine. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, I think that's so important. One of the things I tell my clients is like, you know, at the beginning or the end of the week, sit down and be like, hey, what Don Martelli: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: happened this week? You know, what's something that you loved that was unexpected and, you know, that just made you feel good. And I mean, like, you gotta start somewhere, right? And so like Don Martelli: Yeah. Uh-huh. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: those are great meeting openers. They help keep us connected to like what the work that's actually happening. And then you have to have that somebody who records it. You have to have that person who like Keeps track of that. And a lot of times you find that there's somebody at your organization who particularly likes collecting the stories. Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. You do. You do. and and I mean, you just gotta you gotta do it, you gotta stay militant around it. and and it's hard because there's they're so focused on the work that they're not thinking about, you know, they're thinking thinking about their annual gala, they're thinking about their golf tournament, they're thinking about the annual appeal, they're thinking about the the rush to the end of the year and the the the Black Friday deals, all that kind of stuff. They're just thinking about the formulaic approach to raising money for the nonprofit. And they're c they're kinda collecting these stories every single day without really knowing. They just don't know what Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Don Martelli: to do with them afterwards, which is kinda why I I fell into the the work that I'm doing now because I I just felt like that had to somebody had to carry that flag. And so, yeah. No. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad that you do because I think that you have so much to offer in that space. And it is really a space. A lot of times nonprofits are started by people who are just passionate about the the work, right? And Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: so they're coming in under equipped in these other areas, but these other areas are what keep the business alive and keep the and you know, keep us moving forward. And I think that we've lost, I I feel like because of COVID, we had this period of time where we lost some really seasoned nonprofit professionals. And because we lost those that those seasoned individuals, some of the people who are in the work right now are learning learning as they go without any like guidance, right? They're they're the people Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: that knew are gone. And and so it's really important to engage. People who have expertise in this, you know, we can't all be experts in the same thing. I Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: can do fundraising, great, but there are other parts, you know, of PR, like I would bring in an expert because I'm not, you know, I'm not good enough at it to be able to do it. Which brings me to co a question that I think is really important. You know, we're seeing an uptick on fractional workers in the nonprofit sector. And consultants and tell me this is like tell me about investing in someone who actually has the expertise. What does that do for the organization? Like why invest versus trying Don Martelli: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: to figure it out yourself? Don Martelli: Yeah. So, the question really is why why should you pay Don, you know, a couple thousand bucks, five thousand bucks, ten thousand bucks to do what he's gonna do? Well, the reason why y we get paid what we get paid is because I'm bringing thirty years of journalism experience to the table and I know how to do this from day one. And I know what a good story is, and I have relationships with the media to get these things expedited and placed. so I and one, it's cheaper to hire an outside counsel or somebody to do the work that we do because We're we're probably gonna have a higher level of accountability because as a solopreneur, you know, you want those checks to come in. Right? You don't you're not tethered to a W two. There's not some just some cash flowing through into the band because clients like, Hey, I thought about Don today, let's go pay him. Like th this so we're I think we're at a higher level of accountability to the work, in in a in in a number of ways. And imagine if I was a nonprofit and I had a great board, so good staff, but I I had somebody like you and me, the collective Consultants around that table would bring probably a hundred plus years of of work in critical areas of the business that you're not hiring a twenty five year old, no offense to the twenty five year olds out there to learn public relations and marketing. It's just cheaper, more effective, and it just creates a like kind of a tightrope of accountability that's like we like I have to perform. There there's there's no there's no like I can't say, no, I pitched three thousand people this year, got no coverage. Not acceptable. Find the story. Right. Hey, look, you know, Sarah, we came in, we did all this infrastructure, you know, we didn't we didn't raise any money this year, yes, you still got a job. Not gonna happen. Right. And so and and like look clear, if you're not doing your gig internally, you're gonna get fired too, right? But I think one we're ch w one with cheaper labor because it's it's a you know, ten ninety nine, if you will, right? there's no benefits, there's no office costs, the all the other things 'cause employees aren't just a salary, there's a whole bunch of other line items that they come with, right? so it's just cheaper, more effective, and you're you you're basically buying an expertise that can get off to day one. And at the level to which we do it, the executive directors that we work with are getting brutal, honest feedback and somebody that they can trust that's not in the boardroom or not down the hallway that's gonna run to HR. So it's the it's the trust, the accountability that I think we bring to the table. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, I think that's a great point actually because, you know, really nonprofit executives are so under-supported. You know, they Don Martelli: Big time. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: they are expected to do all kinds of things. Yeah, with without any support. Don Martelli: They're everything. They run everything. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: And I was actually talking about this earlier. You know, there's not there is not nonprofit training where you can be like, Yes, I am really expert at how to run a nonprofit. Everybody starts kind of like usually by chance, right? Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: and I did my and I did my graduate work in public administration, which prepares you a little bit better. You know, it's it's the MBA with a little bit of public focus and nonprofit focus. But still, you know, it I just feel like the sector lacks, you know, they lack that undercurrent where if you are starting a business, I mean people seek you out to let you know, like, hey, I can do this part of your business, I can do this part Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: of your business. They don't do that in the nonprofit sector because there's no money in it, you know. Don Martelli: No. Yep. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: And and I think I think what people often don't understand about bringing in a consultant, and I really didn't mean for this conversation to get into consultancy, but but bringing in a consultant is that y you're paying pennies for those expertise, you know. and at a rate that you probab are is probably about right for your size, you know, you generally Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: don't need somebody maybe, you know. To bring in somebody for PR full time, and you're small, you may not need that much work, you know. And so then you're underutilizing that person's expertise. Where if you bring in a consultant or a fractional Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Yep. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: person, you now get that expertise at the right rate for you. And you can grow. Like, I don't know anybody who does this work who's not willing to like, yeah, I'm willing to grow with you and do more, you know, more in your work. But so. Don Martelli: Yeah. Yeah. Oftentimes like the PR work w ends up being in the marketing communications department that usually is is within the institutional advancement, the the the fundraising department. And and it's usually somebody who's in marketing that was kind of a an outbound marketer or a digital marketer, and they're gonna put together a press release and kind of do the traditional things that they think they know about PR. but I think with my unique approach to it, it just bec it just comes from the newsroom side and you're right. I think you They want a higher expertise that can plug in day one, cheaper labor, higher level of accountability. and and and the fact that we're coming with like, you know, thirty years of experience with other nonprofits, we're not just doing PR. I can I can do other things for an executive director. I can I can prepare her to go into the boardroom. So she has messaging and and we've gone through messaging delivery and we talked about bridging and I can prepare her to talk to the New York Times so she's prepared to answer I can do all the media training 'cause I know what kind of questions I would ask as a reporter. So you just You're getting a very skilled, accountable tactician, but you're getting somebody who's gonna like be that the the person you want on the board to give you that honest feedback, but it's not on the board that you don't have to report to. They report to you and they're accountable to it. So yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I've seen it in fundraising, you know, we'll bring in and sometimes we'll bring in people to learn on the job. Like that's the other that's the other side of it. Like we bring Don Martelli: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: in someone and we're like, well, they can learn on the job. well, with fundraising, if you don't know the right questions to ask to get started, you just feel like you're floundering all the time and like you're trying and you may be working Don Martelli: Yep. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: really hard. That's what I tell people. It's not that you're not working hard. I know you're working hard. I know that you're giving it a hundred percent, but If I floor my car, you know, if I floor the engine of my car and I have my foot on the brake because I don't really know how to drive the car, I'm not gonna go anywhere, you know. So so interesting. Yeah. Don Martelli: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Burning through brick pads. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Well, what's what's something that you wish all nonprofits knew? Don Martelli: I wish they knew that they're sitting on a gold mine of stories and they're right in front of their face every single day. And they're under util underutilizing the best asset they have, which is the impact they're having on the people they're working with. And then those stories have to be told. And you need the infrastructure, need the people, you need the insights, you need to kind of clear the mechanism to be able to see what this what's what's what those stories are and a process to get them out there. They they're they know they're sitting on stories. But it's they're so focused on just the the day to day job. Gotta get the an the annual appeal out. I gotta make sure I process a bunch of checks. I gotta make sure I gotta talk to the board. I gotta push out social media content. I gotta push, push, push, push, push. They gotta they're sitting on a gold mine of stories. They're not mining them and they should. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, thank you. And where can people find you if they want to get a hold of you? Don Martelli: Sure. So you just go to PR Bunker.com, P S and Paul, R as and Rabbit Bunker, not bunker, B-U-N-K-E-R dot com. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Ha ha ha. Don Martelli: I'm on LinkedIn, on alignable, every channel you can imagine I'm out there on. just Google Don Martell, you'll find me. but PR Bunker dot com would be great. And you know, I'm looking forward to connecting with folks. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, and Don Martelli: You're welcome. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: I'm I found you on Alignable. So if you are a non profit and you have checked out Alignable, it's a neat platform for connecting to other businesses. So Don Martelli: Yeah, it's a it's one of the probably most prolific platforms I'm using to network with people that are in the field like you. So for me, a lot of my business comes through referrals to folks like you that don't do what I do because we complement each other's business. I mean, I I still work I actually work for Alignable at the same time. So I do both gigs at once. So I do training for the company and we have a methodology that we call Align, which stands for acquainting, liking, investing the into the relationship, giving first, then nurturing. Right. And and and it it applies to the nonprofit world to a T because every executive director that's going in asking for a million bucks has to align with that particular individual. Understand with their their spouse's name, the dog's name, what they love to eat, that they get a l allergy to s swordfish. I don't know. All the little details. And so, you know, I'm I'm so thankful that we, you know, we got connected through a lineable because for me it's all about my referral partners and people that can compliment the work that I do. So when an executive director says, Hey, We need somebody to help us with fundraising strategy. I'm like, psh got a gal. I let me call my friend Sarah. She can help you out. She's got the four one one. She's gonna bring all the information for you. so I'm really thankful for the opportunity to speak to your audience today and good luck with everything else. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, thanks, Dawn. Don Martelli: You're welcome. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: To to my audience, thank that's it for this episode of Nonprofit Four One One. Thanks so much to Dawn for joining us and for sharing what's worked and what hasn't worked. Thank you for listening. If this conversation was useful, do me a favor, subscribe wherever you're listening right now. So the next epic episode shows up automatically. And if you want more between episodes, come find me on LinkedIn. I'm Sarah Barton. I post their most days about building fundraising that lasts. See ya later. Bye.