Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / The notorious two OPIUM WARS that ushered in China's century of HUMILIATION. With Prof. Yang-Wen Zheng

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The notorious two OPIUM WARS that ushered in China's century of HUMILIATION. With Prof. Yang-Wen Zheng · The Smart Cookies podcast

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Yang Wen -Zhen is Professor of Chinese History
0:07
at the University of Manchester. She's also the
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author of 10 Lessons in Modern Chinese History.
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Professor Zheng, welcome to the program. Thank
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you for having me. Today we're going to be discussing
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probably one of the most notorious and sordid
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conflicts in the entire history of Western imperialism,
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a series of events that are still having sort
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of ramifications in international relations.
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and in politics today, and that is the Opium
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Wars, the advent of which also ushered in the
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so -called century of humiliation in China, during
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which the pretty trigger -happy Western powers
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subjugated this vast, great empire. Now, in my
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limited understanding... The wars can be pretty
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much summarized with the Western powers, namely
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Britain, wanting to overcome this huge trade
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deficit they had with China. And so they started
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making an absolute killing by simply dealing
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drugs en masse, namely opium, of course, hence
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the name. And then when the Chinese put a stop
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to it, they quickly pulled out their guns and
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attacked. Now, I'm sure it's a tad more complicated
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than that. And we're going to talk about the
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events themselves in more detail later on. But
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I'll need... A little bit of context first, because
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like I said, this is all pretty new territory
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to me. So I believe the first opium war started
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in 1839. But just before that, how is China doing?
1:35
What state is the empire in? To really understand
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the trade deficit that led to war, we need to
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understand actually... the global situation,
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the trade, global trade. I'd say since Vasco
1:56
de Gama sailed east and since Matthew Ritchie
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reached China in 1580s, China has been trading
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with Europe. And Europeans were buying a lot
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of tea, silk, porcelain. and spices from Southeast
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Asia. The problem with that is that China, that's
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Ming Dynasty China, and later Qing Dynasty China
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from 1500s, right? Two dynasties. They only accepted
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silver or gold for payment. So if you want to
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buy stuff from me, you got to pay me gold or
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silver. What's the problem with that? Yeah. The
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problem with that is that the Western powers,
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Britain, France, other countries, America too
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later, when they went to China to buy tea or
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silk or porcelain, they need to carry a shipload
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of silver, which is okay, but it's a bit heavy.
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And you're prone to pirates attacks and all that.
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And the worst problem is supply. Because Britain
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didn't produce much silver and neither did, you
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know, France. So the silver mainly came from
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Mexico. So it's, you know, you've got to get
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the silver to you. You've got to procure the
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silver, carry the silver to China. So you can
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imagine that after this trade, this China -European
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trade began much earlier, but it picked up pace
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in the 16th and 17th and 18th century. So you
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can imagine after 200 or 300 years, China has
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sucked in all the silver from the world. The
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problem is China was not buying much from the
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West because there's nothing they needed to buy.
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So by the early 19th century, there was a problem.
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It's obvious that these Western traders are short
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of silver. And China is hoarding all this silver.
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China was rich by the late... 18th century was
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fabulously rich and big and looks big and powerful.
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So if you were a merchant, you'd try to figure
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out, hmm, what would the Chinese buy so that
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I can get that silver out of China? How about
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drugs? Well, it's not that simple as you said.
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So it was not the British. It was the Portuguese.
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They were also facing the same problem. Everybody
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Dutch, Portuguese, Spaniards, everybody who's
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trading with China. So it was the Portuguese
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who noticed that the Chinese were buying a little
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bit opium. You know, a few chests, a little bit
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more. And then, of course, everybody said, oh,
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yeah. The Chinese would pay silver, would pay,
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you know, would buy opium from us, which means
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we can charge them, right? We said we would like
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to be paid by silver, with your silver. So this
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actually was small in amount, you know, from
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1500s, 1600s. It's small in amount. It's not
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a lot. They were importing. opium through the
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Portuguese in Macau who were established in Macau
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and the Dutch and the British. Now what led to
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the explosion of opium trade is actually the
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situation back in Britain because by the late
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18th century you have The Industrial Revolution
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had produced an aspiring middle class and even
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lower middle class. They also wanted to drink
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tea because in the 15th and 16th century, it
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was the luxury, you know, only the royalty, the
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rich had access to it. So the Industrial Revolution
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produced tea. a middle class a lower middle class
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they wanted to join in the consumption of tea
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where could you get tea at that time tea at that
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time in the late eighteenth century up until
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mid nineteenth century could only be procured
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from china the british trading companies like
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jar de matheson and east india company they were
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going to China to buy massive amount of tea and
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they need to pay China much more silver than
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before, right? Because before the tea amount
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was small. So in order to buy more tea from China,
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they need the Chinese to buy more opium from
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them, right? So in some ways, You could say it's
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a trade war. It's a war on deficit, trade deficit.
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Actually, it's a tea war. It's Britain's desperate
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need for tea that led the British traders to
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begin to massively ship opium to China. Of course,
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by this time, by early 19th century, but before
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1830s. It's just like tea. So it's a war about
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consumption in some ways. So middle class emerging
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in Britain wanted to consume more tea, right?
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Opium began to spread in China since late 17th,
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early 18th century. More people began to know
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about that. So more people, because of silver,
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Remember, all the silver went into China, so
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China got rich. So more people want to consume
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opium. So in Britain, you want to consume more
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tea. In China, you want to consume more opium.
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And that's the perfect exchange. Well, the problem
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is that tea is kind of good for you, but opium
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isn't so good for you, right? Exactly. Well,
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in a way, tea is also addictive. You know, if
9:29
you don't, I drink tea every day. If there's
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one day I don't drink, I get a headache. It's
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like me with coffee. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So
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it's also, of course, it's not as deadly as opium.
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But you have to see at that time, people were
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not aware of the addictive and destructive nature
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of opium until probably, I'd say, 1820s. when
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massive amount of opium went into China and massive
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amount of silver began to leave China. And then
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when your main mechanism of transaction, your
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currency, is massively leaving the country, I
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mean, local governments began to go bankrupt.
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So it was more, if I understand it correctly,
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it was more of an economic issue than a social
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issue in the sense that there was like drug addicts
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everywhere, like lying on the street and the
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workforce became, I don't know, incapacitated.
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It depends what kind of historian you are. So
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there are three schools of thought about this
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origin of war. One is cultural war. They think
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it's a difference between Chinese cultural, which
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limits trade, because Britain wants to open trade,
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and a country, a island nation that lives on
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trade. So you could say it's a cultural war.
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Economic historians have always argued that it
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is a trade war. One even argued that... If the
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item of dispute was not opium, but tea or rice,
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right? You would have led to a rice war because
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it's not about the commodity. It's about the
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currency of transaction. It's about silver. Right.
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But what do you think? Was opium consumption
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actually doing damage in China? Absolutely. As
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it became more widespread, addicts would go bankrupt.
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They would sell their house, their children,
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their wife, because they're addicted. So, and
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that it led to the bankruptcy of local governments.
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It led to people dying on the street. It led
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to the army useless. You know, I wrote in my
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book, like seven out of 10 soldiers, were addicts.
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I mean, how could they fight? Yeah. So how could
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they fight? I mean, so I said China lost the
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European war before the war even began because
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your soldiers were getting addicted. But there's
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a lot of, I wrote in the book, there's a lot
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of details about what you smoke, what brand you
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smoke, when you smoke, and what you add in because
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the ashes can be smoked too. And then you can
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add tobacco. into it. So there's lots of details
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in there. And some are more addicted than others.
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And of course, by the late 19th century, it was
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just out of control. But why do you think opium
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consumption took hold in China? Because it was
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known in other places as well, right? India,
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also in Europe and stuff. But there weren't like
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masses of addicts, like you said, seven out of
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10 soldiers being addicted to opium in those
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places. Yes, so I argued in my book, The Social
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Life of Opium in China, that from something alien,
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right, smoking opium, to something very Chinese,
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to identify opium smoking, when you think of
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19th century China, you think of opium, right?
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So opium had become an identity. of the Chinese
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people. Why? So my whole book, my PhD thesis
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was about that. Why did the Chinese people succumb
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to opium? What is it about opium? So I went through
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classes, from the upper classes to the middle
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classes, to the lower classes, to the abject
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poor people, to women, to celebrities. So for
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me, the conclusion is cultural. Because going
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to the pub, here you're going to the pub, right,
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having a beer, going to the opium den, lying
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down there, having a wolf, and being entertained
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by, you know, courtesans or prostitutes who serve
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you. You know, it became their livelihood. You
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know how to cook opium. The raw opium has to
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be cooked, mixed, served at exactly the right
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time. Because if you overcook, it becomes a liquid,
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liquidish. And if it's not cooked enough, it's
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too hard. It's impossible. So it became a profession
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for women. And then if you want food, you can
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have food. And, you know, it's going to the brothel
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to enjoy yourself. And sometimes to hear plays,
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you know, there's plays as well, to have tea
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with your friends. It's a culture. It's a culture
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for a lot of Chinese men. The sort of the breadwinners
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of the families who earned an income. These opium
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dens were real. I thought that was like a Hollywood
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cliche, you know, this kind of seedy opium den.
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No, it's everywhere. I see. No, it's everywhere.
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And opium dens, sometimes later on, you don't
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know they're opium dens. You know, they could
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be called restaurants. They could be called tea
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houses. And you go in and they serve opium. I
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call them the pillar of Chinese society. Men
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who earned an income. And in Japan too, you know,
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you go out, you enjoy yourself with other maids
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and things like that. And for women, a lot of
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time, you know, opium actually was medicinal.
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It is still medicinal. It cures pain. You know,
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Chinese women had their feet bound, the three
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very tiny feet. And it's really damaging, you
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know, because the toes, five toes, and you bound
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like this and you tie them up and you fit in.
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That's very painful. So a lot of women smoked
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opium to kill the pain, not just this pain, but,
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you know, pain from other, you know, tools or
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life. Some people use it to kill time. Maybe
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they have too much time, you know. So I wrote
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in my book, it's just. it fitted in, it fitted
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in, opium smoking fitted in well with Chinese
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culture of different classes, upper, lower, middle,
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and you will see I listed poems made by illiterati,
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and it was fashionable among the celebrities.
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And a lot of time they led the trend because
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you hear, oh my god, this, this, this opera's
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Star is smoking something. What is that something,
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you know? So it's a bit like in the West, too.
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It's a celebrity culture. So that's the reason
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that I, because I want, as a student, as someone
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born in China, I really wanted to understand
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why China fell from grace, right, and got itself
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into this huge problem. It's because it fitted
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in very well. You know, the Portuguese were selling
17:51
opium along the eastern shores from Japan to
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Taiwan, to Southeast Asia. Nobody welcomed opium
18:00
like the Chinese did because they really derived
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some culture out of it, just like tea. You know,
18:08
in Britain, you have high tea, you have afternoon
18:11
tea. You know, you can go to Ritz Carlton and
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get afternoon tea with the cakes. You know, for
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me, it's very funny. I never got it. I never
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understood that the British tea culture. Yeah,
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that's the point. Chinese people made a culture
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out of tea, opium smoking. And British people
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made a culture out of tea drinking. It's a ritual.
18:37
You know, we get a tea break every day. Even
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the construction workers at 10 .30 in the morning,
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3 .30 in the afternoon, in addition to lunch,
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they get a tea break. So do you see what I mean?
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But then you don't get that in France. You don't
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get that in Norway. You don't get that in Germany.
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It's just Britain. They invented something. So
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tea drinking must have fitted in. with British
19:03
culture at a certain time and then developed.
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So it's about taste making, trend setting. I
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really studied that in my thesis and trying to
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understand the war was caused by consumption
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culture, by cultures of consumption. All right.
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Yeah, I hope I answered your question. Yeah,
19:26
definitely. You did. And you also outlined kind
19:29
of the trade. deficit between the two empires
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but please correct me if i'm wrong i believe
19:35
there was actually no british embassy in china
19:38
at the time just a small trading outpost the
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english were trying hard to change that resulting
19:43
in a couple of unsuccessful diplomatic missions
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the most famous one of which was the the mccartney
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mission i did a little bit of reading on it and
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i have to say i didn't expect so much situational
19:54
comedy happening i found myself laughing out
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loud quite a bit a few times. So could you tell
20:00
us the story of this exquisite diplomatic calamity?
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Yes. So a lot of historians of modern China,
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especially historians of European wars, trace
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the origins of the conflict to 1793, when Lord
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McCartney was sent to China by King George III.
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He brought a lot of gifts. And you can see at
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that time, that 1790s, China was the lord, was
20:36
the dominating power. Why would Britain send
20:38
all the ships? Because they realized, Britain
20:43
realized, China trade was really important to
20:48
Britain. Tea trade and opium was growing. Other
20:52
trade, they're also buying a lot of porcelain.
20:55
You know, a lot of porcelain in Britain and in
20:58
Europe came from China at that time. So Britain
21:01
saw the significance of China trade. That's why
21:07
they sent the mission. And they sent another
21:10
one in 1816, 17, Lord Amherst. They sent another
21:15
one in 1820s and 1830s. The last one was Lord
21:19
Napier. So they were knocking on China's door.
21:25
For China, the problem is China didn't really
21:28
need much from them. It's like there's nothing
21:32
you really need to buy from you. Maybe a few
21:35
arms, maybe a few chests of opium. That's about
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it. And that's only one aspect. The other aspect
21:45
is that the Qing court, the Qing emperor, Qianlong
21:50
emperor, was aware what the British was doing.
21:54
India and Southeast Asia. So having the British
21:58
coming in, having embassy, would help the British
22:04
to spread their influence and to sort of have
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control over the trade. And that's something
22:11
that he couldn't tolerate. And in some ways,
22:17
this continues today. Even though China has opened
22:21
up a lot, but China is definitely, you know,
22:24
a lot of things, banking, quarters for trade,
22:29
it's controlled by the government through state
22:31
-owned enterprises. You know, so in a way, so
22:35
it's very conservative. It's very, not very liberal
22:41
in, you know, not free trade. Oh, everybody can
22:44
go anywhere and do whatever. No. So that's why
22:49
a lot of historians have said this is a cultural
22:54
war, a difference. And it fought the first Opium
22:58
War. Britain asked for an embassy in Beijing
23:02
or somewhere. No, the embassy issue was solved
23:07
in 1860 at the end of the second Opium War because
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China was badly defeated. trade was legalized
23:18
and China had to accept all the terms. And one
23:22
of the terms is for European countries' powers
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to have embassies, ambassadors, and China could
23:31
send theirs too. So they wanted to establish
23:34
a relationship with China. And that relationship
23:40
is really needed for their trade. The other aspect
23:44
that a lot of historians talked about, is the
23:47
fact that Qianlong Emperor didn't send anybody
23:50
to Britain to ask Britain to open trade. It was
23:54
Britain and other Dutch, Holland as well. A lot
23:59
of them sent missions to China with gifts to
24:02
kind of, you know, look, we make this in Europe.
24:04
It's really nice. Look at the clocks. Look at
24:06
the guns. You know, look at the rifles. I mean,
24:09
Qianlong Emperor said, yeah, I don't really need
24:11
that. Didn't they bring like a whole planetarium
24:15
that took 18 days to assemble with them? Yeah,
24:18
and then you know what happened? Not impressed
24:20
at Chinese people. Yeah, that's like, yeah, yeah,
24:23
no big deal. So the Qianlong Emperor put all
24:28
the state gifts in a storage. And then in 1860...
24:34
When the British opened, you know, stormed Chinese
24:37
palaces, they found it. Like all dusty and moldy,
24:42
not even opened. They took it back from the Amazon
24:44
box. Yeah. So because it's just, you know, because
24:49
China was so arrogant and so proud of itself,
24:55
its civilization. Yeah, you little island nation.
25:00
You know, what can you make? You know, you need
25:03
us. We don't need you. So the whole thing and
25:06
China was treating Britain as if it's another
25:12
country from Southeast Asia. You know, the Southeast
25:16
Asian and South Asian countries, diplomats, they
25:19
come every two or three years, you know, to pay
25:23
tribute to the emperor and bring some gifts and
25:25
then they can do some trade. along the way. So
25:28
that's the only trade that's really allowed.
25:32
More from tributaries, right? Yes. So Britain,
25:36
of course, was angry. How can you treat me like
25:38
a little vassal state? Right? So this is the
25:42
other reason for Britain to wage war is we need
25:48
to change the current system. We need to be equal
25:53
with you. You know, don't treat us like, you
25:56
know, a vassal state like a tributary. So what
26:00
Britain did is to challenge, to mount a challenge
26:06
to the established system that had functions
26:09
for 2 ,000 years. And what other Europeans did,
26:15
Portuguese and Dutch, they tried to work around
26:18
the system to get what they want. And Britain
26:23
in the beginning did so too. But then in the
26:26
end, they said, no, that's not the way because
26:27
they were desperate for tea. So they had reason
26:30
for not wanting to work around the system. The
26:36
Portuguese were very smart. They worked around
26:39
the system. So did the Dutch. They got what they
26:41
wanted. They were not in desperate need of tea.
26:45
So do you see what I mean? So it's different
26:49
conditions that let this happen. By the way,
26:53
when reading about these unsuccessful diplomatic
26:56
missions, one thing that keeps popping up is
26:59
the kowtow affair. Did that have any real effect?
27:05
I don't think so, but it's been exaggerated by
27:08
historians. Because it's a cool story, I suppose.
27:12
No, it's symbolic. Exactly. Yeah, because when
27:16
you go see the emperor, you have to kowtow, you
27:18
know, pass straight yourself, basically. Sort
27:21
of like your forehead has to touch the ground,
27:25
right? Yeah, that's called kowtow. Kowtow is
27:27
your forehead touches ground. And for the emperor,
27:30
it's nine times. Okay. It's a lot of times. One
27:35
time will not do. Yeah. And of course, Lord McCartney
27:40
said, I could bend one knee, right? As if I'm
27:44
saluting my, greeting my own king. I'm not going
27:47
to do that. But... Allegedly, the Portuguese,
27:52
the Dutch, everybody did that because if they
27:55
could get whatever they need, then why not? So
27:58
the British were a bit stubborn because this
28:01
is a humiliation for them. And you're not treating
28:04
us as equals because we don't do this. And this
28:08
is a very thorny issue. But for the Chinese,
28:12
everybody does that. The Portuguese, the Dutch.
28:14
So they are also like, hey, everybody does it.
28:16
What's the problem with you? Right? Yeah. Yeah.
28:20
So there's debate about whether Lord McCartney
28:24
really did it or not. Because in his memoir,
28:27
in the memoirs produced about the mission, he
28:31
said no. But the Chinese sources says he did.
28:36
So it wasn't even an issue. He did it. And then
28:38
he said, I didn't do it when he came back home.
28:40
That's convenient. Because the Chinese sources,
28:43
I even bought the book, says he did it. Right.
28:49
And he kowtowed. And then the memoirs that his
28:56
secretaries wrote, several secretaries and attaches
29:01
wrote, says, no, he didn't kowtow. I even have
29:04
the book on the shelf. So what happened? We don't
29:08
know. We don't know. So Chinese historians believe
29:12
that if he didn't kowtow, he would have been...
29:17
held by the eunuchs or the ministers. Right,
29:22
because that's pretty insulting, right? Like
29:24
you just come over and you don't do what you're
29:26
supposed to do. They're not just going to let
29:28
you go and like say, hey. But then there are
29:31
other historians who say, no, the Qianlong Emperor
29:36
is rather relaxed about this. And maybe he just
29:38
said, okay, whatever. Yeah, because Britain was
29:42
not really important to him. By the way, I just
29:46
have to read this out because I was laughing
29:48
out loud. Apparently at the end of the mission,
29:51
it ended with the following emperor statement.
29:55
Our celestial empire possesses all things in
29:58
prolific abundance and lacks no product within
30:00
its borders. There is therefore no need to import
30:04
the manufacturers of outside barbarians in exchange
30:07
for our own produce. I mean, that's a pretty
30:10
sick burn. Mic drop moment right there. He's
30:14
like a battle rapper. I like that. He's like,
30:17
you don't have anything we would need. So it's
30:21
off. Yeah. And it's not just his opinion. It's
30:25
that of many officials as well. We don't need
30:28
to trade with them because we don't need anything
30:31
from them. But they need you. Right. Right. I
30:35
imagine the papers and the public back in Britain,
30:38
which must have had also a bit of an inflated.
30:41
sense of itself on account of having an empire
30:44
already where the sun never sets. Must have had
30:46
a field day with this, right? Oh, absolutely.
30:48
It's like, how dare you treat me like this, right?
30:51
No, I'm going to address this problem. And they
30:55
were at it, you know, from 1793, 1816, 1820s,
31:00
1830s. They keep sending... emissaries over and
31:04
say oh can you can you open trade can you open
31:06
a few more ports because they were confined in
31:10
canton to canton they can only trade by tea in
31:14
canton from government designated uh mercantile
31:20
houses it's like today's state owned enterprises
31:24
you can only do it and you can only do it in
31:26
canton you're far away from beijing And of course,
31:30
you want to have full access to China at any
31:34
time. And you also want to be able to trade with
31:37
anyone you like. But that's not the way China
31:41
does it. So it's in conflict. That's why people
31:45
say it's a cultural war. Because in China, trade
31:48
is controlled by the government. The official
31:51
trade. And Britain is like everybody can go and
31:54
trade. So there's a trade deficit. Britain needs
31:59
all of this tea. The opium crisis is kind of
32:02
spiraling out of control. How do things then
32:05
kind of evolve or disintegrate into an armed
32:09
conflict of the first opium war? You know, sometimes
32:13
I wondered if the opium war would have taken
32:18
place so quickly because there are other variables.
32:25
that works behind the scenes that you don't know.
32:29
So this situation might have continued. You know,
32:33
don't bring trade, don't bring opium. I'm not
32:36
bringing opium. You know, diplomatic wrangling.
32:40
It sort of sounds a little bit like Trump with
32:43
his tariffs right now. He's like, I want European
32:46
countries to buy American cars. So, you know,
32:50
we have a trade deficit, so we're going to punish
32:52
you with tariffs. Sort of sounds like that. This
32:54
might have gone on until the Commissioner Ling
32:58
came, the famous Commissioner Ling. He was a
33:01
bit draconian. So he surrounded the area where
33:06
the foreign traders lived and worked, and he
33:10
forced them to surrender the opium. And in the
33:14
end, they held out for two months, from March
33:17
to May. And in the end, everybody left. They
33:21
left behind all the opium. And all the more than
33:24
20 ,000 chests of opium, that's a lot of opium.
33:28
And the opium was burned, mixed with lime, and
33:34
flushed into the sea. And this was witnessed
33:38
by American missionaries. You know, they wrote
33:41
memoirs and reports. So what happened afterwards
33:44
is because this opium amounted to... almost 6
33:52
million silver dollars at that time. It's a lot
33:56
of money. So China thought, oh yeah, we just
33:59
burned it and you've gone away. That's it. Problem
34:04
solved. But not knowing, the British merchants
34:08
had gone back to home, to Britain, to lobby for
34:12
war, for compensation, right? Because that's
34:14
my property. You destroyed my property. And so...
34:20
There was diplomatic wrangling, diplomatic wrangling
34:23
on and off. And during that period of time, you
34:29
know, it has nothing to do with opium. Some British
34:32
sailors, merchants were hanging around on the
34:36
sea, you know, South China Sea, close to China,
34:40
Hong Kong, that area, waiting. to see if there's
34:45
an opportunity to get back to China and to do
34:47
more trade. Maybe they're not doing opium trade.
34:51
And one day in July 1839, two months after the
34:57
opium was destroyed, a month or two, there were
35:02
six sailors who went on Kowloon. I don't know
35:05
whether you've been to Hong Kong to Kowloon.
35:07
It's a kind of shopping paradise, like Ginza
35:10
in Tokyo. So the six sailors went to the only
35:16
grocery store, there was a grocery store, you
35:18
know, a little hut, and wanted to buy the alcohol.
35:23
And the owner of the little grocery store said,
35:27
you're already drunk. I'm not selling you alcohol.
35:31
He's being, he's being, he's being, whatever,
35:35
moral. And these, these six people beat him up.
35:42
and took the alcohol and this chinese grocer
35:45
died the next day from the wounds inflicted on
35:50
him and that is the cause of the opium war for
35:53
the two sides to exchange fire because the chinese
35:57
commissioner says the crime is committed on chinese
36:02
soil he was right so i have the right we have
36:07
the right to try them But the Chinese penalty
36:12
would be death, you know, because you've killed
36:14
someone. And the British commissioner, Charles
36:17
Elliott, said, no, no, they're British. We should
36:22
try them. Whatever. That's not fair. But anyways,
36:27
so they were exchanging notes. What should they
36:31
do about this death and the six sailors, the
36:33
Chinese commissioner and Captain Charles Elliott
36:36
were exchanging notes. And of course, shots got
36:42
fired. And that's actually the origins. The real
36:46
origin. If this didn't happen, I don't know what
36:49
would happen. Do you see what I mean? So the
36:51
diplomatic wrangling, maybe the Portuguese will
36:54
step in because the Portuguese have a better
36:56
relationship with China. Maybe they will step
36:59
in and broker or something, right? So if this
37:03
killing of the Chinese grocer didn't happen,
37:06
I don't know. But of course, Britain was preparing
37:09
for war because they wanted compensation. But
37:13
it just speed up everything. So that's the outbreak
37:17
of the opium war, which really didn't have much
37:20
to do with opium, but something called extraterritoriality,
37:25
international law. But there was no international
37:28
law at that time. And the Chinese had reason
37:31
to say the crime was committed on Chinese soil.
37:34
And I have the right to try them. but they're
37:37
too harsh, right, the penalty. And the British
37:40
said, oh, no, no, no, they're British citizens.
37:42
And, you know, the same reason is going to lead
37:45
to the Second Opium War in 1856. It's about,
37:48
you know, when the two nations were people living
37:52
in Hong Kong, British close to Hong Kong, whatever,
37:54
there's always friction because contact leads
37:59
to friction and then friction can lead to problems.
38:04
So it... Both origins of the opium war, both
38:08
origins for both opium wars, actually don't have
38:13
much to do with opium. It's about extraterritoriality.
38:17
Who has the right to try and sentence and enforce
38:22
justice? So I suppose these six wild pub crawl
38:27
attendees were tried in China and then probably
38:31
executed. No, no, no. They were tried in Singapore.
38:32
They were hurried back in Britain. Oh, they managed
38:36
to escape. Well, it's not escape because Britain
38:39
said, oh, you better get home, you're troublemaking,
38:41
right? Because Singapore was already kind of
38:44
a British outpost by 1819. But if they managed
38:48
to escape, then why did Britain attack? They
38:50
got their guys back. Yeah. Even though they killed
38:54
somebody. Yeah. Yeah. But then there was the
38:57
exchange of fire because while they were negotiating,
39:00
what should we do? I see. So you never know.
39:05
People get angry and say, why are you saying
39:07
this? So contact leads to conflict and friction.
39:13
So that's really the trigger of the war, even
39:18
though the large British army was on its way
39:21
from India because they didn't have a lot of...
39:24
Britain was too far away. So they were coming
39:26
from India in 1830. You know, the war itself,
39:31
I'm not sure you can call it a war because it's
39:34
like skirmishes here and there. You know, you
39:37
fire a few shots. I take a few shots, islands.
39:41
It's just like it's hide and seek in South China
39:44
Sea. It's not. And the most important thing that
39:48
we have not written much about is China did not
39:52
have a navy. So British Navy, of course, you're
39:56
going to win the war. And then, of course, then
40:00
the question my students always ask me, why China
40:03
did not have a nation, have a navy? But, you
40:06
know, at that time, China was ruled by the Manchus.
40:11
And the Manchus came from the grasslands of mountains
40:14
of northeast China. Sort of nomadic peoples,
40:18
right? The nomadic people, they're like the Mongols.
40:20
They didn't have, you know, a sense of naval.
40:24
defense. They see the sea itself as a great wall.
40:29
China's traditional enemies come from the north,
40:32
nomads, the Mongols. It's always the Mongols,
40:35
the Qidans, the Juechens, whatever. It's always
40:38
the northerners. So that's why they built the
40:40
Great Wall. So that's another story. They see
40:44
the long coast, the sea itself, as a barrier,
40:49
as a defense. So they were not keen. And China
40:54
did not have a navy until 1880s. Because they
40:58
don't have a modern navy, as we all know. At
41:03
that time, Britain and France were competing
41:06
with each other. So you can't... Of course Britain
41:09
is going to win. How come China did not know
41:13
or realize how powerful Great Britain is? I mean,
41:16
you said before that the emperor did know. that
41:19
the British were literally in possession of large
41:21
swathes of India already, weren't they? There
41:24
are several reasons. They were aware of what
41:28
the British were doing in South and Southeast
41:32
Asia. But I think because the Manchus conquered
41:37
China, Mongolia, you know, today's Xinjiang,
41:43
Central Asia, Tibet. 18th century, they were
41:48
at the zenith of their power. I mean, you know,
41:52
a big, huge empire. Yeah, who's going to touch
41:56
me? You know, that sense of pride, of complacency.
42:01
What a big power. There's also always the joke
42:07
about the Chinese during the Opium War when the
42:11
officials went to the emperor and tried to tell
42:13
the emperor, Britain has attacked us. He goes,
42:17
Britain? Where? Which country? And the officer
42:20
has to roll the globe a few times to find a tiny
42:24
little nation. You know, because they're complacent.
42:30
That's why the weapons, the goods that Lord McCartney
42:35
sent to Chenong Emperor, he said, well, just
42:37
put it in the storage somewhere, because they're
42:40
proud. And they're complacent. It is a gigantic
42:44
empire from Mongolia to Kazakhstan to Tibet,
42:51
you know, close to Tibet. I mean, you know, they're
42:54
proud. And it is often because of their pride,
43:00
of their complacency, just like the British Empire
43:03
that's going to get to them. Because you are
43:05
the dinners. You go on your way down. Too proud.
43:08
Yes. Yeah. Another thing I'm wondering is after
43:13
this defeat and before the second opium war started,
43:17
how come China didn't try to industrialize as
43:20
fast as possible to be able to then compete with
43:22
these kind of hawkish Western powers that kept
43:26
coming for its money and its territory? Because
43:28
they didn't realize they lost the war, right?
43:32
It's going to take them a long time to realize
43:35
that they've fallen behind. Okay. So one defeat
43:40
is not going to be enough. No, one defeat is
43:43
not going to be enough. And second defeat is
43:46
not even enough. It is the inability to suppress
43:53
domestic rebellions. The Taiping Rebellion, the
43:58
Christianity. Then they realized, oh, okay, maybe
44:02
we'll build some modern, you know, arsenals.
44:08
Maybe we'll build some ships. Because they are
44:12
so conservative, they're so ingrained in their
44:15
own culture, in their own grand history, they
44:22
could not believe that Chinese civilization were
44:27
at the mercy of Western modernized industry,
44:34
industrial power. military power. And at this
44:40
point, Japan is a good example. Japan, bang,
44:44
changed quickly, realized, oh my God, the West
44:47
is powerful. Let's learn from them. Let's learn
44:49
quick. You know, Meiji Restoration was launched
44:52
in 1868. By 1874, they were in Taiwan. 1875,
45:02
They were 1874, 1875 in Taiwan, 1879 they annexed
45:09
Okinawa. They were already expanding because
45:13
the Japanese emperor, the elite wanted to reform,
45:20
wanted to follow the West. So it's top down.
45:25
China's court doesn't want that. So it's a little
45:29
officials here and there. you know, provincial
45:32
officials, oh my God, I've got to deal with the
45:34
Taiping. Oh, maybe we'll build a modern, you
45:37
know, arsenal. I don't know how to do that. Oh,
45:40
hey, just let's hire some British or French officials
45:42
to help us. You know, that's how China's modernization
45:46
began. It's to meet the task at hand. Because
45:52
they saw the West defeated China with modern
45:56
weapons, they thought they could defeat the domestic
45:59
rebels. with mortar weapons. But you know, it's
46:04
like ad hoc, like reactionary. Oh yeah, I gotta
46:09
do this. Let's do this. So China's modernization,
46:13
early industrialization is arsenals, shipyards,
46:17
translation colleges. That's all. Japan is systematic.
46:23
They have social reform getting rid of the sort
46:26
of caste system. Everybody is, you know. educational,
46:30
military, industrial, they are systematic, they're
46:34
top -down, it's a national agenda. The Manchus,
46:39
no, no, no, no, no, we don't do that. So that's,
46:42
you know, this is the best thing you could do
46:45
about history, is you compare the reaction of
46:48
two nations, and that's why Japan rose quickly.
46:52
So, even after the Second Opium War, and all
46:55
of these humiliating treaties and conceding a
46:58
bunch of territory and rights and extraterritoriality,
47:02
like you said, the most important thing for the
47:05
Chinese court was still quelling rebellions,
47:08
not kind of dealing with external powers. No,
47:11
yeah. Because by the mid -19th century, because...
47:19
the silver problem, because a large amount of
47:22
silver went out, and the economy suffered. There's
47:26
also massive... So all the problems emerged to
47:29
plague the country. You know, before, it might
47:32
have been accommodated, you know, relaxed, because
47:38
at least you had enough money. Now everything,
47:41
you know, environmental disasters, increasing
47:46
European consumption. outflow of silver. Of course,
47:51
it leads to rebellion and coming in of missionaries,
47:54
bringing Christianity, you know, and then you
47:58
get people who hate foreigners. That's why you
48:01
get boxers. So the door was run open in 1842
48:06
after the first opium war. Then you get lots
48:09
of things. And of course, the Qing dynasty was
48:12
not prepared for that. And they were right in
48:15
a way that when they opened the door, it became
48:18
a problem. So the emperor was right in his anticipation.
48:23
If we open the trade, open door to Britain, to
48:26
other foreign countries, then it will lead to
48:28
social property. It did. Christianity came in.
48:31
More opium came in, right? New ideas come in,
48:34
came in, and it led to revolution, national revolution.
48:37
So he was, in hindsight, he was right. Right,
48:42
because the guy who... Yeah. The guy who started
48:45
the huge Taiping rebellion, he thought he's some
48:48
sort of brother of Jesus Christ or something.
48:51
So he was influenced by the missionaries. Yeah.
48:55
Missionaries said, oh, yeah, this is the Bible.
48:58
Go read it and try to figure out yourself. Well,
49:01
yeah, I'm God's Chinese son. Do you see what
49:05
I mean? So there were consequences. And of course,
49:08
this is one consequence. The other consequence
49:10
is people don't want it. So you have the boxers.
49:14
You know, we don't want foreigners. We don't
49:16
want railways. We don't want telegraph lines.
49:20
So you've got the two extremes. One embraces
49:23
them, the other rejects them. And it just makes
49:26
things even more complicated. And this was the
49:29
situation with officials as well. Some officials
49:33
say, oh, maybe we should open up a bit to strengthen
49:37
ourselves to learn from the foreigners. And some
49:39
people say, no, no, how can you do that? Right?
49:42
So the existing problem in China was brought
49:50
out, compounded by more problems as a result
49:56
of the opening door. By the way, the fact of
50:00
the matter is, though, that the British were
50:03
selling vast amounts of a drug. um to china and
50:07
apparently there was even some opposition to
50:10
the first opium war in britain itself i read
50:12
that that so much so that even the prime minister
50:15
uh william gladstone made a famous speech against
50:18
it criticizing his criticizing it as um i quote
50:22
a war more unjust in its origin a war more calculated
50:26
in its progress to cover this country with permanent
50:29
disgrace apparently his sister helen was an opium
50:32
addict so it seems though that wasn't Enough,
50:35
though, to prevent this from happening again.
50:37
No, no. There were lots of missionaries who were
50:40
against it, public against it. But, you know,
50:45
it's big business that matters, just like today,
50:48
because opium trade was bringing in tea and loads
50:52
of money because it's national income and national
50:57
security. But they knew at the time already that
51:00
what they're doing is not the most moral trading
51:03
endeavor. Yeah, you read the diary of the opium
51:09
dealers and they say, oh, yeah, I sold 300 chests
51:14
today. Oh, thank you, Lord. I mean, today we
51:18
would call that a narco state, you know. They
51:21
just saw it as a commodity rather than drugs.
51:27
Money wins, I suppose. Was the second opium war
51:30
then pretty much a repeat of the first one? Or
51:33
did it differ from it in a significant way? It
51:36
was also extraterritoriality issue that triggered
51:41
it. This time, France joined the effort. France
51:46
joined Britain and Russia and America provided
51:52
expertise as well. You know, advisors, observers,
51:58
delegates. And the worst thing about the Second
52:01
Opium War, it's much more notorious, is because
52:04
the British and French navies with their American
52:08
or Russian advisors charged to Beijing. They
52:13
wanted to bring the emperor to his knees, you
52:18
know, to the treaty because they want to legalize
52:21
opium trade. And they went and ransacked, looted.
52:26
and burned the Summer Palace. My colleague has
52:32
calculated that there are probably about 2 million
52:36
looted objects in Western Europe and North America
52:42
because of this. And this is something that's
52:45
still very much in the psyche of Chinese people.
52:48
Because you get auction of this, you know, in
52:51
London auction of that. So, The Second European
52:58
War is much more consequential and significant
53:04
for the British because they managed to legalize
53:06
the European trade. That's what they really wanted.
53:10
And also to have foreign embassies in Beijing,
53:16
in the capital, to sort of ambassadorial exchange.
53:19
And also for missionaries. to be able to go into
53:24
interior of China, not just in the treaty ports.
53:30
And you can imagine that kind of, you're going
53:32
to lead to a lot of massacres of missionaries
53:35
because people in the interior have never seen,
53:38
you know, it's like, what? Why are you coming
53:40
here? Why are you doing this? So then you get
53:43
boxes and all that stuff. So the Second Opium
53:46
War ended in 1860. The Qing realized it was no
53:51
match. I mean, after the first Opium War, they
53:54
didn't. They thought, ah, just one battle. Yeah,
53:57
Hong Kong, okay, whatever. It's just a little
54:00
island, whatever. But after the second Opium
54:03
War, and the second Opium War took place at the
54:06
same time with the Taiping Rebellion. So they
54:09
had foreigners on the coast, Chinese. There were
54:13
three rebellions, one in Shandong, one in Taiping,
54:16
one in Western China, Muslim. There's Muslim
54:19
rebellion. So can you imagine the government?
54:23
Not the most fun time to be the emperor, I suppose.
54:27
No, no, yeah, yeah, no. Speaking of the emperor,
54:32
how much was the outcome of both of these wars
54:34
dependent on him? I mean, if he was a different
54:36
kind of guy, I don't know, more decisive, would
54:38
it make a difference? No, no, it's people on
54:42
the ground that makes a difference. Yeah, he,
54:45
I don't know how much power he really had, you
54:48
know, how much control he actually had. The outbreak,
54:54
the triggers of the war both had nothing to do
54:56
with the central government. It's local friction
54:59
with the British. No, and it really didn't matter
55:04
in a way because China was so huge. you know,
55:08
the long coast lines and officials in Canton,
55:11
in other regions, had their own, you know, interest
55:16
to look after. Sure, there's the emperor there,
55:21
whatever he says, but, you know, here. So it's
55:26
always Chinese politics is really always a tussle
55:31
of war between the central government and the
55:34
local government. The central government says
55:36
this. And the local woman said, what? Okay, let's
55:39
try, see if I can get around it. But at the same
55:42
time, to protect my own interest. So there's
55:47
a lot of that, but that's a different issue.
55:48
That's a different history. I don't want to dwell
55:52
on military matters for too long, but why were
55:55
the Chinese so easily defeated? I mean, I read
55:58
somewhere that the English were outnumbered as
56:00
much as 10 to 1 most of the time. You mentioned
56:03
drugs. At the beginning, I mean, smoking opium,
56:06
a lot of soldiers were doing that. You mentioned
56:08
that the Chinese didn't really have a navy, but
56:11
still, that's a vast advantage, no? Yeah, those
56:15
are the issues. Some of the issues, lack of morale,
56:19
human addiction. I think there's another issue
56:23
that historians have also looked at. Remember,
56:27
China was ruled by the Manchus. You have the
56:32
local coastal guards, chinese officials they're
56:36
not manchu do you see what i mean there's a there's
56:39
a layer why should i fight for you that's number
56:42
one number two the manchus conquered china in
56:47
sixteen forty four with arrows and bows and their
56:52
legendary warriors conquered mongolia you know
56:57
central asia tibet even taiwan That generation
57:02
is long gone. 1644, 1680s. By 1700s, China had
57:12
procured Tibet. Taiwan, 1680s. I mean, yeah,
57:18
just a few ships. British, foreigners, don't
57:22
worry about that. So, there is opium addiction.
57:27
There is probably a... a little bit Chinese Manchu
57:33
subtlety there. And there's the gone of morale,
57:40
the leadership. You know, if you have a leader
57:42
who's like, let's go and defend my homeland.
57:44
And then, you know, it's not even their homeland.
57:48
That's why a lot of Dr. Sun Yat -sen and a lot
57:51
of Chinese nationalists, you know, say that the...
57:55
Qing court signed away these treaties and islands
57:58
easily because, ah, yeah, it's not my land. It's
58:02
Chinese. Right? Oh, it's just a little rock.
58:06
It's loads of rocks along the shores. You know,
58:11
addiction, gone are days of Manchu warriors,
58:16
Chinese soldiers. What am I fighting for? Because
58:22
in one place, I mean, And a lack of defense because
58:27
the weapons are dated. They don't have, you know,
58:31
cannons and things like... So in one case, one
58:37
little town was kind of demolished in nine minutes.
58:42
Oh, that's crazy. Because the Chinese soldiers
58:44
thought, my goodness, you know, one cannon kills
58:48
a whole bunch. Let's run. Why should I fight
58:51
this war for what? You know, so there's a lot
58:56
of that. The empire is going this way. The soldiers
59:00
are addicted, had no morale, don't know what
59:03
they're fighting. Why should I die for the ranchers?
59:07
So there's a lot of that going on at that time.
59:11
And many of them were poor, especially the coastal
59:14
guards. I mean, you know, and if you can't fight
59:18
the enemy, of course you run. What's the point?
59:21
That's what I would do. Yeah, exactly. You gave
59:24
the answer. There's always a few brave souls,
59:28
right? And they are commemorated as national
59:30
heroes. Of course, they pay with their lives
59:33
as well. What were the consequences then, the
59:38
aftermath of the Second Opium War? Legalization
59:42
of opium trade, which means massive increase
59:47
of opium coming in, a massive outflow of silver.
59:52
So it gets even worse with the addiction. And
59:54
that's why China had to die in 1911. And the
1:00:01
worst is that the British and the Dutch began
1:00:06
to develop a revenue farming system in Southeast
1:00:10
Asia. So instead of India, right, opium coming
1:00:15
from India, they... have farmers, Chinese farmers
1:00:19
in Southeast Asia grow opium supply China market
1:00:22
because they needed so much opium. And of course,
1:00:27
China began to grow its own opium by that time.
1:00:31
As a matter of fact, I think I said in the book
1:00:35
that by the 1880s, Chinese grown opium So this
1:00:42
Chinese ground is two Chinese ground. One is
1:00:45
in Southeast Asia, Chinese ground. One is China,
1:00:49
Chinese ground. They were beginning to replace
1:00:54
imports. And by that time, a lot of other Brits
1:00:59
have joined, traders have joined the trade. You
1:01:04
know, the Sassoon family. They figured out, they
1:01:07
found out, oh my God, opium can make you money.
1:01:10
So a lot of other people have joined the massive
1:01:15
opium trade. By the way, the opium trade was
1:01:18
discontinued in theory, the British opium trade,
1:01:23
in theory, in 1916. They signed a treaty with
1:01:26
China in 1906 to say they will reduce. They will
1:01:31
reduce the amount of imports. Not even stop.
1:01:34
They're just going to reduce selling drugs in
1:01:36
the middle of the First World War. Until 1916,
1:01:39
they were completely... And that goal was more...
1:01:43
That target was more or less reached. So after
1:01:46
1916, most of the opium that was smoked in China,
1:01:50
consumed in China, were grown by Chinese in Southeast
1:01:53
Asia or in China themselves. So Chinese -grown
1:01:57
opium have replaced. foreign -grown opium. When
1:02:01
did China then finally wean itself off of this
1:02:05
massive consumption of opium? That's another
1:02:08
episode. Okay, fair enough. Because it became
1:02:13
a political issue. It became a national survival
1:02:16
issue. And Dr. Sun Yat -sen and the communists,
1:02:20
all the political leaders have repeatedly emphasized
1:02:23
that if we don't give up opium, we're going to
1:02:25
lose our country. So it's a political thing.
1:02:29
And also the communists were draconian. They
1:02:34
basically put you in prison. You have no opium.
1:02:39
You either die or just get rid of it. So two
1:02:42
sides, political, national awakening, using the
1:02:48
rhetoric of the century of humiliation. If we
1:02:53
don't get rid of opium, we're going to lose our
1:02:55
country and the Japanese war and all that stuff.
1:02:59
And then, because we're the sick men of Asia,
1:03:02
right? That's where the name comes from. You
1:03:06
know, you're sick. You've been the sitting duck
1:03:08
of all aggressions. So one is the political,
1:03:11
wakening up the people, don't smoke opium. The
1:03:14
other is actually just, after 1949, opium addicts
1:03:19
were put in asylums and hospitals. You know opium,
1:03:23
just you get over it. Some people die. Some people
1:03:28
die. Some people switch to tobacco. And many
1:03:33
people were not addicts. So you just moderate
1:03:35
yourself. You get over it. Yeah, that's communist
1:03:40
draconian. It worked. Yeah, kind of severe cold
1:03:44
turkey. But the effects of these two wars were
1:03:46
so profound that even 100 years later, the communists
1:03:49
are still dealing with the problem of widespread
1:03:52
addiction of opium in China. Today, you mean?
1:03:56
No, no, no. Like from the end of the second opium
1:04:00
war, then it still takes a long time. And even
1:04:04
the communists after the second world war are
1:04:08
still dealing with this problem. Yeah. I would
1:04:11
say until 1951, 52. Wow. That's crazy. So that's
1:04:15
like a hundred years at least. Yeah. Because
1:04:17
I've read a lot of materials about people narrating,
1:04:21
being interviewed, how they gave up, got rid
1:04:24
of the opium addiction. Some of them were 1951,
1:04:28
1952. So it's a century. It's a century. Yeah.
1:04:34
And I'm not a big fan of communist regime, but
1:04:39
this is something they did. So no opium. They
1:04:43
put you in asylum. You can scream, you can hit
1:04:46
your head against the wall, you can die, whatever.
1:04:49
You're going to get cured. Or they cure them
1:04:52
and you give them medicine or whatever, but just
1:04:54
no opium. No supply. No supply. So that's something
1:04:59
they did. Last question, Professor. What kind
1:05:03
of memory do these wars occupy in the collective
1:05:06
memory of China today? Are they actually, remember,
1:05:08
that's some sort of like defining historic moments,
1:05:11
like the Second World War, or as they call it,
1:05:14
the Great Patriotic War does in Russia? Or are
1:05:18
they more conveniently brought out in a more
1:05:20
instrumentalized way when politics? of the day
1:05:24
demands it. The Okin Wars is a lesson in Chinese
1:05:28
history books, you know, from elementary school
1:05:33
to middle school to high school to university.
1:05:36
So everybody knows that. It's in the national,
1:05:38
you know, collective so -called memory. But,
1:05:42
you know, textbook in China is censored by the
1:05:45
government, is published by the government. So
1:05:48
it's common knowledge. in Chinese history is
1:05:51
Britain, you know, all that stuff. And the looting
1:05:56
and sacking of Yuanmingyuan, you know, the Summer
1:05:59
Palace, that's evoked very frequently by ordinary
1:06:06
people, by government officials, by newspapers,
1:06:12
you know, to illustrate the evils. of Western
1:06:20
imperialism. And every time when something surfaced
1:06:24
in Paris or in Berlin being auctioned off, there's
1:06:28
the reminder of that. I mean, that was pretty
1:06:31
barbaric, wasn't it? I heard that it took them
1:06:34
three days and 4 ,000 soldiers were continuously
1:06:37
burning to destroy the place. It's not nice.
1:06:43
national psyche it's in individuals you know
1:06:46
minds as well although it depends how political
1:06:48
you are but most people would know it professor
1:06:55
thank you so much for taking the time um i really
1:06:57
really appreciate it hope we can do one of the
1:07:00
other lessons from your book next time uh i'm
1:07:03
not gonna i'm not gonna harass you like next
1:07:05
week but maybe in a couple of months i'm gonna
1:07:07
drop you yeah i think the boxes are interesting
1:07:10
That sounds fascinating as well. Yeah, my students
1:07:14
write two kinds of essays. Boking Walls, Boxer
1:07:18
Rebellion. They like these two topics. I can
1:07:23
see why. Do you have any social media, by the
1:07:27
way, where people can follow your work? No, I
1:07:30
don't. I don't have time for that. Oh, there
1:07:34
it is. 10 Lessons in Modern Chinese History.
1:07:37
Looks good. Yeah, it's for students, A -level
1:07:41
or high school or university. It's got a lot
1:07:45
of scholarship in it as well. So no, I'm busy
1:07:49
teaching and I don't have any social media. Yeah,
1:07:52
good for you. No Twitter, no Facebook, no Instagram,
1:07:56
no nothing. Just my email. I don't recommend
1:07:59
it. I have no time. I've got so many students
1:08:01
and so much. publications and those things take
1:08:04
a lot of time. Of course, of course. But I admire
1:08:07
what you do. It's a public good. And I will introduce,
1:08:13
tell my students about you. Appreciate it. Thank
1:08:17
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