Latest / The Partial Historians / The Gallic Sack of Rome - Part 5

Transcript

The Gallic Sack of Rome - Part 5 · The Partial Historians

• Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the Partial Historians. Dr G 0:16 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr Rad Dr G 0:30 and I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts. Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad. Dr G 1:01 And I'm Dr G, hello. Dr Rad 1:04 This is going to be a tough one. I think Dr G, in more ways than one, because for listeners who might be listening at a different point in time, we are currently recording in the midst of an Australian summer as affected by climate change. Dr G 1:24 It is a heat wave, a tropical heat wave. Dr Rad 1:27 Exactly. We're having a heat wave. That's a Marilyn reference, in case you didn't pick up on that one, Dr G 1:35 I knew you would figure that one out. Dr Rad 1:39 But not only that. Dr, G, of course, we are in a year that seemingly never ends. As far as ancient Rome is concerned, Dr G 1:47 the hottest year on Roman history's record 390 BCE Dr Rad 1:52 Yeah, I knew it was going to be a big one, but it's it's even surprised me. Dr G 1:57 We are many parts into this effective mini series on this year, and the last time we talked about this, there were some interesting moments. There was visitations down the Tiber, aided by cork Dr Rad 2:13 visitations Dr G 2:14 visitations. There were sacred geese, and boy did they honk. And there were some people thrown down off the top of what we think is the Capitolini Hill rather than the Tarpeian rock, although we can't be entirely certain. And some Roman bodies end up amongst the Gaulish forces, it seems. Dr Rad 2:34 Absolutely yeah. So we're right in the midst of this Gallic siege of Rome. We've got this stalwart band of Romans who have remained behind to defend the Capitol and all the sacred buildings and animals, apparently, that reside upon it. And when the Gauls tried to assault them, it almost worked, not quite, and that's where we got people being flung off rocks, etc, etc, etc, yes. Dr G 3:07 So this siege, we think, has been going on for quite some time at this point, our sources suggest that it's anywhere between six or seven months at this stage, and everybody's really starting to feel the effects of it would seem. So Plutarch, who I would not consider a close source to the action at hand, nevertheless suggests that the Gauls themselves are running into some trouble engaging and maintaining this siege, partly because they lack provisions, but partly because, in an encamped situation for a long period of time, outbreaks of disease are quite common. It's hard to keep up sanitary conditions when you're in a place where you've kind of constructed everything from scratch, but it's all kind of temporary. And they're also encamped amongst ruins of Roman buildings. Effectively, in some parts of this siege area, there's also a growing extent of corpses because they're engaging in various raids. And obviously some people die in those and they haven't seemed to have dealt with those bodies necessarily in the best way possible. Dr Rad 3:07 Well that's just gross. Dr G 3:07 Some of them, they've been able to cremate, but seems some of them, they haven't, so they're also amongst the dead at the same time. So this would be pushing disease outbreaks as well. But the worst thing of all, according to Plutarch, is that the Gauls came from a cool place, and as we know, one of the theories that brought the Gauls into Italy is that they were looking for somewhere even cooler. But boy, were they wrong, because Italy is hot, and even in autumn, apparently, when this siege is still continuing, it's still quite hot, and they are unhappy campers about the weather. Dr Rad 4:56 I could not feel more simpatico with the Gauls than right now recording this ridiculous Australian heat. God, I hope we do something about climate change so it doesn't get any worse. Because I was going to make fun of this whole scenario and say, this sounds like anti-Gallic propaganda in a sense, where they're like, they can't function when it's hot, when it gets above 35 degrees celsius, they just completely melt, like the Wicked Witch of the West. But then I'm like, You know what? I don't think I function particularly well, when I get too hot. Mind you though. Dr G 5:32 Yes, now, now, it comes down to it. Yes. Dr Rad 5:36 They have been in Italy for a bit of time at this point. But maybe it's because this is one of their forays more into, you know, central Italy, whereas when they started crossing the Alps, which I mean at this point, the Gauls are meant to have been crossing the Alps for a couple of hundreds years, like we think it starts around sort of 600 BCE, that we start getting Gallic peoples on the move and coming into Italian territory, but I think they have tended to stay further north, which for anyone who's been to Italy, it is a bit of a different climate to other parts of the country. Dr G 6:17 Very much so, much cooler, maybe more delightful if you're you prefer the wintertime, but now they're in central Italy and doesn't agree with them, not not in their constitution. It would seem, physically, they're having a tough time. Dr Rad 6:32 Yeah, no. Look, this is what Plutarch has said. Is very much what Livy says. He says, look, the siege is obviously terrible because the goals aren't making the headway that they need. They weren't necessarily planning on this whole situation. It was somewhat foisted upon them. If we had to leave our accounts by the Romans, terrible behaviour. Dr G 6:52 That's right, you can't deny an insult like that and just walk away, Dr Rad 6:56 Even if we say like, whether we say it was the insult which, let's face it, most people don't think that that was probably what happened, or whether we say the Gauls were actually on their way somewhere else, maybe to do something particular, like serve as auxiliaries, or something like that. Either way, they haven't planned for a lengthy siege, so they don't, as you say, have all the provisions that they need. The Romans are certainly feeling it because they're really lacking in provisions, because they can't really leave the capital to get anything, and they just up there, God knows what kind of exercise they're getting. Dr G, and this is exactly when, yes, a pestilence hits. Livy also mentions where the Gauls had set up their camp, that because it was low ground between hills, and there was also, like, polluted air, I guess in his in his mind, you know, because they've torched so many beautiful Roman buildings that barbarians, it's just not good. And he also mentions the the corpses, and the fact that they kind of had tried to dispose of some bodies they've made, like, mass burial pyres. But when it comes to people who've maybe died just, you know, randomly and like a little siege, they're kind of like, it's just one body. I don't know if I can be bothered sitting on fire. Dr G 8:15 Bad choice. Bad choice. At least bury it. Dr Rad 8:17 Yeah. And so this is what drives the Gauls to seek out the Romans and to try and enter, introduce get some talks going, see what they can sort out here. Dr G 8:33 Yes, this is an interesting moment, because it seems like the siege actually becomes a bit of a fizzer, and it's like the Gallic sack of Rome, and here we are, and everybody's tired, and we're months into it, and the Gauls are like, we kind of want this to be over. And the Romans like, we'd like this to be over too. And the Gauls are like, how about you give us 1000 pounds of gold. Dr Rad 8:53 Oh, well, it gets a little bit heated before we get to that point in my account. Dr, G, there's a little detail in mind that I particularly like, which is that the commanders on both sides are obviously talking trying to figure things out, and I guess to drive home that they were in the stronger position in this siege situation, the Gauls start making fun of the Romans and mocking them for the fact that they're literally starving to death in front of their eyes, which, after, say, six or seven months, I can understand. And they're like, surely the Romans should just give in. I mean, you're clearly going to die from starvation if we don't kill you first. Now this is not the way that you negotiate with the Romans, as we know. Dr G, it's not going to get them on side. It riled them up so much that they started, apparently, throwing bread down from the Capitol towards the Gallic camp being like that'll show them. We rain down bread upon you. We're not starving to death. We're strong, stronger than we've ever been. Whoa. I think I'm feeling a little woozy from the lack of food. Phew. Dr G 8:54 First of all, the Gauls are like, is this the hill that you're willing to die on? And the Romans are like, yes, it is. Dr Rad 8:54 Yes, the Capitol is the best. Dr G 8:54 This is the the exact hill that I'm willing to die on. And not only that, it doesn't seem in any way strategic to be like, how about you guys have some of the bread. We're having a tough time, but you're gonna have it tougher because you can't handle this level of gluten. Dr Rad 8:54 That's right, yeah, exactly. We know how you guys are. You can't handle the food here. You can't handle the climate here. Get outta here. Dr G 8:54 Yeah, good luck with this bread. The Gauls are like, I will eat it. Dr Rad 8:54 My commentator believes that this little tidbit that Livy includes might have been something that's trying to explain a development of the cult of Jupiter Pistor, which is the story that turns up in some other sources like Valerius Maximus, Ovid, etc, etc. Dr G 8:54 Lovely. Dr Rad 9:41 Well, I mean, this is the thing about the way that our stories are coming together at this point in time, as we've talked about, Livy's drawing on multiple things. He's using earlier analysts. He's also using, probably family histories that have been passed down. They might be oral stories. They might be oral stories that became something that was written down or preserved in some other way. He's using archeological sources like inscriptions, etc, etc. But one of the things that might be influencing him is this antiquarian tradition as well, where the Romans are obviously trying to explain all sorts of details about their culture, and that's particularly flowering at the time that Livy's writing probably because Rome has undergone such a troubled century in the sort of late Republic and early Empire, the Romans seem to have been inspired to figure out their origins, to find out, why do we call it that place name, and, where did that cult come from? And how do we explain this building or this monument? And sometimes they might have come up with things at some point to try and explain why something is the way it is. And obviously it's really hard for us to trace exactly how strong their evidence is for these stories. They're coming up with another example of that is the story that we talked about last time about the crucifixion of the dogs, which happened every year, obviously, with the whole thing with the geese and the dogs and the assaults on the Capitol, if you don't know what I'm talking about, you need to go back and listen again. It's one of those things where it's obviously a tradition that has survived. But is this really what happened? Is this really why the Romans had this cultural practice, or is this something that's been woven into the account of the Gallic sack to try and explain a custom that people have kind of lost track perhaps, of exactly why they do what they do? Dr G 12:56 Yeah, fair enough. There is a sense in which the Romans are definitely trying to figure out what their identity is like, and this is a landmark event in their imagination, at the very least, because we don't have a lot of archeological evidence to back up. Dr Rad 13:12 We certainly don't Dr G 13:13 This Gallic sack and so even this idea of a Gallic invasion that moves so far down into Central Italy is difficult to navigate from an evidential perspective as ancient historians, and the significance of this tale for the Romans is huge. Dr Rad 13:32 Absolutely. Dr G 13:33 There's so much detail. This is why we're in part five of this narrative, because they do focus in on every moment, and this idea that eventually, what it sort of boils down to is this embarrassing exchange where Rome gives up, essentially. Dr Rad 13:59 Yeah. Dr G 14:00 They do, they do pay the money to the Gauls. And even though both sides are looking a little worse for wear and neither are having a good time, there does seem to be a recognition from those who remain on the Capitol that they cannot stick this out, that if this does go on, ultimately they will be the losers from it. They're not sure whether any of their neighbours are going to turn up with forces. What has happened with the messages from they has not necessarily resulted in something positive or tangible that they've been able to see. And there is still the looming figure of Camillus, who is in exile, and nobody really knows where he is, and nobody knows if he's ever turning up. And even if he did, would he have any forces with him? Dr Rad 14:42 Well, of course, at this point, they have sought him out. They've tried to go through the proper processes in my account, because for Livy, at this point in time, it's the Camilla show. We know that, as you say, this story is such a big part of the way that the Romans imagine their history by the time people like. Livy were writing the traditions around it had been fairly well established. The narrative had been fairly well established. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't obviously these differences in exactly how the story unfolds. And certainly Livy works Camillus in in a very particular way, and he constructs the whole of his first 10 books kind of around Camillus, particularly now that we're into this, this later period here we're talking about, you know, books sort of five to 10, and 10 is where we unfortunately lose the detailed Livy for a little while. But yes, Camillus is a big part of that. And exactly as you say in my account, the Romans pelt the Gauls with bread, feel good about themselves and like that'll show them. But then they turn to each other and they say, but I'm actually really, very hungry. Really, really hungry. I don't know how much longer I can last. And you know what? I think we just used up the last of the bread to make an emphatic point, yeah. Dr G 15:59 Do we have any grain stores on hand? No, we don't. Dr Rad 16:03 No, I think maybe, maybe I might have let my temper get the best of me. Dr G 16:12 Rome - never! Dr Rad 16:15 And meanwhile in Livy's account, this is where we flash to what's going on in Ardea, because that is where Camillus is in exile. Camilius- Dr G 16:24 and now for a new chapter, Dr Rad 16:25 Yeah. Now that Camillus has managed to have his proper appointment where he's been properly selected as dictator, he's getting into action. So he's conducting a levy. He's also selected a master of the horse, naturally, a guy called Lucius Valerius, and he's asking him to bring his army from Veii meet Camillus in Ardea, I presume. Camillus is then starting to train the troops - Drill, baby drill! This is the time he wants to make sure that they're going to be able to kick some Gallic ass. Yeah, gun show. Mwa Mwa. Dr G 17:04 It's time for a training montage. Dr Rad 17:05 It is, yeah, it very much is. It's a point where, if we could afford it, we would play Eye of the Tiger. He's got them punching meat in butchers shops, in the animal warehouses. He's got them in gray, sweatpants. They're running up and downstairs. Dr G 17:22 It's all happening. Yeah, look, I don't want to ruin Livy's show just yet, but I'm just going to put a flag here to say that the stories that Dr Rad is about to tell you from Livy are highly contentious. Dr Rad 17:36 Whoa, I can't believe you're throwing me under a bus in front of the listeners. Dr, G, they're watching. They'e listening. Dr G 17:45 Just putting it out there. Listen carefully. Listen well. Warning. Warning. Dr Rad 17:50 Sorry. It's very confusing, because we're kind of video recording this as well as audio recording this. So I'm like, I don't know who to address. Do I address YouTube? Do I address people who have just got me in their areas? I don't know. Okay, so back in Rome, we're switching back. Okay, we've gone from the butcher storehouse to Rome. So the army on the Capitol really is at their absolute lowest at this point in time. They are well worn down, not so much from fighting the Gauls, just just doing their regular duties that they have to do, which I presume means, you know, standing guard being centuries and presumably helping each other out to keep life turning as well as it can up there on the Capitol, because we know that some of them have family out there. It's not just fighting men there and then obviously the level of starvation, that old chestnut, of which I'm sure it's much worse by the bread display earlier, they are desperately wanting to hold out until Camillus shows up, because that's the plan, as far as they're concerned. You know, Camillus has been made dictator. They're watching. They're waiting. And nothing happens. There's just nothing on the horizon. They don't know what Camillus is up to. They unfortunately can't hear 'Eye of the Tiger' from the Capitol, Ardea is just a little bit too far away, and so they're almost getting to the point where they're too weak to even wear armour when they're on the lookout. They are at that level of starvation, which actually does sound pretty somber and terrible. Dr G 17:50 That's bad. Dr Rad 17:50 Yeah. No surprises. So the Romans are starting to discuss, what are we going to do in terms of surrender? How do we handle this whole situation? Do we literally just surrender? You know, get us the whitest piece of fabric that we have left after being up here on the Capitol for seven months and wave it. Or do we do something like, say, ransom ourselves to the Gauls. The Gauls had said that they weren't necessarily like looking for a lot in order to bring this whole situation to the end. Because, as we talked about, it's not like the Gauls are having a fabulous time either. This isn't like 'Roman Holiday' here. So the Senate have a meeting, naturally, process, process, yes, and they say to the military tribunes with consular power that are up there, look, just, just organise some terms. Have a meeting and somehow organising this, this can't go on much longer, so a meeting is set up. A guy called Quinctius Sulpicius, one of our military tribunes, meets with the so called leader of the Gauls Brennus. Suspicious name, but sure, here we are, and this is where, in my account, the Romans agree to pay 1000 pounds of gold. Livy, at this moment is like, I'm wigging out, guys, this is crazy. Rome is about to become the greatest empire ever, and here they are on their knees agreeing to pay these barbarians. I mean, how hilarious and ironic, right? Guys, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Yeah. Dr Rad 19:22 It is an interesting moment for the Romans where they're like, okay, not only is that an outlandish sum to ask of us, but yes, we're going to pay it. And we have Quinctius Sulpicius, as you mentioned, is the military tribune who's sort of leading the conference with Brennus. And they agree that they'll deliver that gold, and then the Gauls will depart, not just away from Rome, the city, but out of Roman territory. They're just, they're just gonna leave everything. Dr Rad 20:08 Which sounds extensive, but isn't really that. Dr Rad 20:08 It means they have to get past right at the very least, I've got to go, at least, keep going, get out in here, it's going to be at least a day's walk. And this is where we start to get the stories about the interference with the scales. Dr Rad 20:31 Yes. Dr G 20:31 So the Gauls are like, you know what's going to be fun if we just keep piling things on our side of the scales? And the Romans are like, what are you what are you doing? We're weighing out a precise measure. You can't just keep adding things to the scales. Dr Rad 20:31 It's 1000 pounds, not like, whatever pounds. Dr Rad 20:31 Yeah, and the Gauls are like, we might be hungry and willing to leave, but we still got a sense of humour. And if you want us to leave, we're just going to add this little extra piece to our side of the scale and be like, oh, well, that's that's not 1000 pounds of gold. The Romans are like, you've got to be kidding me. Dr Rad 20:54 Yeah. And when the Romans try and point this out in my account, this is a very dramatic moment where the military tribunes say, I'm very sorry to be that guy. But I couldn't help but notice that the mathematics of this situation, they just don't seem to be 100% correct. I think you might be asking for more than 1000 pounds of gold, and this is where a Gallic soldier rips out his sword, throws it on the pile where they're stacking up all their stuff to skew the weights, and says "Woe to the conquered", which is a fancy way of saying tough titties, guys, we get to call the shots around here. Dr G 20:59 Yeah, this idea of this phrase that variously translated as "Woe to the conquered", "Woe to the vanquished", and the Gauls basically standing there at this moment of a peace treaty being like some of these ones. Dr Rad 23:52 Dr G is giving me two fingers up for those listening in audio format only. Dr G 23:58 And this phrase passes into Latin proverb, it becomes a thing that they say to each other. Dr Rad 24:03 It does. Well, and this, it's no wonder the Romans go back to this supposed moment, because it's obviously deeply shameful that not only was their city taken, not only did the Gauls steal a bunch of their stuff and set a bunch of their buildings on fire, allegedly, not only did they massacre the elderly patricians, senators, whatever you want to call them, and not only have they continued to siege for a number of months, but they haven't been able to get themselves out of this situation, and now they're actually having to pay to get these guys to go. I mean, I can't really imagine much of a lower point for the Romans at this moment in time. Dr G 24:45 This is a huge low point. I don't think Rome has ever been so low. I put it to you because from the very beginning, they've been on a upwards trajectory with some little bumps in the road, admittedly. But always quite quickly back to an upwards trajectory, and this, this is a massive blow. Most of their population doesn't seem to be in the city. It's limited in supplies. They're at their wits end. They don't think they've got any help coming. If they know about Camillus, which is not clear from my source material that they do, then they really are having to make the best decision that they can for their own survival under terrible circumstances, and they're just really lucky that the Gauls agree to go away for a sum of cash, because, I mean, any other enemy in central Italy at this time, and Rome has a few of them would probably not have gone, yeah, give us some cash and we'll go. Dr Rad 25:48 Yeah, well, and that, I think, shows the fact that the Gauls aren't necessarily here because they want to establish, like a permanent settlement themselves in this particular location. I think that's why they're happy to accept this money. Apparently, in order to go away, they're interested in having portable wealth. And this is, this is part of the narrative that we're given about why Gauls are on the move at this time, they are looking for more land. They're looking for more goods. And so with them being so far south at this point in time, they probably do want stuff that they can carry - cash and carry only, thank you very much. And that might explain some of the archaeology, the fact that we don't find a huge conflagration in the in the records when we sort of dig down deep enough, there is evidence of a great fire that probably was fairly destructive, but it's just not the right time period. And even though we might be a few years off here with the Gallic siege, obviously, people sort of speculate it happened sort of between 390 and sort of 387 386 because of the differences in dating. But it's definitely at around this time that this supposedly happened, this encounter. So the dating is just off. It would make sense if the Gauls were more interested in stealing things, because that wouldn't leave any trace in the archaeological records for us to see, and it explains why, in spite of the fact that the Romans think that the Gauls set most of their city on fire, there are, in fact, still buildings and inscriptions and statues that predate the Gallic sack of Rome standing hundreds of years later into Livy's time. Dr G 27:24 I think there's also something to be said for the way that the authors of the sources that we're able to access have particular ideas about the Gauls because of Rome's engagement with Gallia in the first century BC as well. So there's a very particular picture that has been built up about what Gallic people are like on the basis of things like Caesar's campaigns in Gaul and so for a Roman writer like Livy and even for a Greek writer like Didorus Siculus, there is a sense in which there is a pre-established idea about what Gallic people are like. They're a raid and plunder kind of people. They are not about firm sort of settlements, necessarily. They're more about moving and raiding and being able to pick up and be on the go if they need to. And those kinds of ideas, I think, are partly what is feeding into this narrative as well, because the Romans don't conceive of the Gallic people as a people that would want to stay in Italy, even though, historically, they've been in the northern parts of Italy for a few centuries already, and they got to have lived somewhere. Dr Rad 28:49 Hey Dr G 28:50 They've probably put down some roots. Dr Rad 28:52 It's well beyond where the Romans are at this point in time. Northern Italy, what's that? Now, this is where I'd like to do a bit of a tangent, if I may. Dr, G, I mean, I know, I know, I'm making this series even longer, but I have been doing a bit of extra reading around these accounts, because it's so complicated, picking apart the slightly different narratives that we get and the details that we get. And as we say, we're dealing with this thing where we've got this very epic, detailed narrative history, and yet at the same time, we're kind of like, did this happen though, Livy, did it? I have some questions, exactly, so I'm going to put it to you. Dr G, where the hell did this 1000 pounds of gold come from? Dr G 29:35 Well, I would say if it came from anywhere, it'd have to be the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, because that's on the Capitolini hill. Otherwise, not sure. Dr Rad 29:47 Yeah, and this is exactly the problem. This is something that one of the academics I read has delved into. If you'd like to read the article, please check out our show notes. They have tried to figure out, okay, so where's the money coming from? Because in our different accounts, we're given slightly different details, which probably reflects the particular perspective of the person writing. So the account that we get of this whole galaxy each of course, is that most Romans have left by the time the Gauls arrive. You know they the Romans are defeated at the Alia. They know things aren't going well for them. They've scattered. We know that a lot of the population has therefore left the city. The whole idea is you just have this band of fighting men and a couple of extras who are left behind, and then, of course, the older gentlemen who are all sorted so they don't count. Dr G 30:37 Yeah, anybody who reasonably could go has gone. Dr Rad 30:41 Yes, exactly. And we know that because this was seen as such a monumental moment for Roman history. Obviously, this is a story that was told and retold, and, you know, we slightly reworked over time, depending, I guess, on what the Romans needed to sort of get out of it, I suppose. So, what this person has actually suggested is that what we're witnessing here was, in fact, a total Gallic capture of Rome. So the entire city is taken. It's not this situation where some of the buildings are set on fire, but then the girls say, You know what? We're going to leave you just a tiny little bit of hope so that you're going to pierce the ransom and leave some of the buildings, etc, etc. Dr G 31:20 I like that one, leave it. Dr Rad 31:23 I think this is a total takeover. And then we have to figure out where are the assets coming from? Because we only have this tiny group who are left behind and starving to death. Where are they coming up with 1000 pounds of gold? Now, in Livy's account, he is very particular that they do not use temple treasure in the ransom. Dr G 31:43 Oh, well, that's a problem that's my one source. Dr Rad 31:49 Well, the reason being, of course, and this feeds into the other things I've been telling you, Livy is all about protocol at this point in time. You know, the Romans have got themselves into this situation, apparently, because of their lack of attention to the signs that the gods are sending them there, they got off balance with the gods. They weren't doing things properly, not pious enough. And so now they're in this situation. And once they're in this situation, when the chips are down, they're doing everything by the book. So even when they're besieged, they're like, We have to go through the proper procedures to appoint a dictator. Guys, can't just wait for someone to come in on a white horse. You know how we feel about white horses, especially if there's more than one of them, we really got to make sure we do everything properly. You know, cross every T, dot every I. Dr G 32:36 You know what? In our alternative history, it's really fortunate that Camillus isn't around, actually, because he would have talked them into giving over the temple treasure, and then it would have all gone downhill from, Dr Rad 32:47 I don't know, I don't know if he would. He's such a pious guy, it's all very confusing. But anyway, in Livy's account, it's not the temple treasure, okay? Because that would be, obviously, it's, I suppose, slightly offensive to the gods, you know, not perhaps exactly the picture he wants to paint at this point in time. And so it's just state gold. I mean, I guess it's possible that they just have some state gold with them, because, as I constantly point out, when discussing climate change, you can't eat money, so you may as well use your money to fix the situation around. But yeah, so maybe they do, I suppose, have some state gold. They don't have quite enough, and this is where Roman matrons apparently chip in some of their gold in order to make up the balance. This will come back to later, and it's because of the Roman citizens pulling together, uniting, showing what Rome is all about, showing off those values that they're able to make up the account. In other accounts, it absolutely is temple treasure that is used. However, we also have to question exactly the nature of this temple treasure, because, of course, we know that a lot of valuable objects have been taken. We had that whole story, Dr G about the Vestals fleeing in a cart meant for a family, and they're far, far away, and they've buried some of the treasure as well, so they don't have access to everything at this point in time, even Varro, who is one of these antiquarians we were talking about before, who we only have snippets of, he is one of the sources that we have that mentions that temple treasures were used, but also jewelry donated by Roman matrons. Dr G 34:31 Look, it wouldn't surprise me if they're scrounging for every piece of gold that can get their hands on. Really, they're confined to the Capitoline hill, so that immediately limits their physical accessibility to storage. So it's either temples or if they do have a physical structure that houses the public treasury at this point, which is when I'm not sure archaeologists, please weigh in and let us know. Did they have a public treasury building at this point? Was it on the Capitoline? If yes, we can all start to make sense of this. But turning to the people themselves seems the ultimate answer to this as well, because once you've depleted all of the publicly accessible wealth, what do you do next? If you're still falling short, and this is a very specific figure that we've been given 1000 pounds of gold is a massive amount to ask, and it's the kind of round figure that that feels questionable, like many of the round figures that we get from ancient sources, but it's obviously designed, from a literary perspective, to give us a sense of the overwhelming nature of what the Gauls require in order to go away, to perhaps lessen Roman shame around this idea that they had to capitulate, that it was a capitulation that was substantial enough to make sense, that they they did it, and it was possible, and it allows them maybe to save some face there. But I think it's really, it's a really interesting question that this scholar has asked, like, what gold? Dr Rad 36:09 Follow the money Dr G 36:10 Like where? Yeah yeah yeah. And it's hard to follow the money when we have so little understanding of what's going on in that archaeological record. Dr Rad 36:19 Well, yeah, the more they pulled these threads, the more I was like, Oh, my God, they're totally right. Because not only have all the Romans gone, not only have they apparently removed a lot of the valuables for safe keeping, the Gauls have then plundered all the rest of the parts of the city, apart from the capital. So it's not like the Romans can sneak out and get their little piggy bank from their house that they left behind. It's all gone. Dr G 36:42 Although maybe that's exactly what they did. I mean, we had that priest who snuck down into the forum... Dr Rad 36:48 Not snuck he just walked out. He was just like, out of my way. I've got a ritual to perform. Dr G 36:52 But if he could get away with that, maybe everyone's like, you know what? I'm just gonna do a quick, sneaky run to my house. I'll be back. Dr Rad 36:59 I'm now come back, bring a Gallic warrior with like a spear held above somebody's head, as a Roman, you know, pulls aside like a fresco, and it's like, yeah, getting into their wall safe. Dr G 37:10 Exactly. It was like, I know where the family jewels are hidden. I'll be back, guys. Give me five minutes. Dr Rad 37:15 I think this is the way this scholar is sort of imagining it. So basically, to preserve Rome's dignity, as you were talking about, we have this scenario where they have at least managed to keep the Gauls off the Capitol, and even though that it's extremely shameful to enter into these negotiations, have to pay the Gauls to go away, at least the Gauls, in this narrative, didn't take the Capitol. You know, it was all protected. This scholar, I think, is suggesting that's actually not the case. Everything was taken, and this is why the Romans find themselves in this scenario. And of course, they actually probably don't have the resources. And if everything was taken, then maybe we are actually dealing with a ransom situation. Because if we think about that particular institution of Rome, the patron-client relationship, which, whilst we can't obviously be 100% sure exactly how it played out at this point in time, it is a constant. We know it existed at this point in time, there would have been an obligation to help out. If you could, you know, call on your clients, or, you know, you know, call on your patrons. There's an obligation there to help each other out. And so it's possible that what actually happened in this scholar's imagination is that the Romans are calling on outside sources, maybe even other cities. So like Caere has come up in our narrative, we know that Rome is going to, after all this is over, have a special relationship with Caere because they, you know, they were real, a real pal, a real solid friend in Rome's time of need. And maybe this is indicative of a role that Caere played that has not made it into the narrative in the most accurate way, perhaps that you know the reason why the Romans have this sense of obligation to them, and with so many Romans sort of spread in the surrounding area, this scholar sort of highlighted that it would have been potentially possible to call on these outside sources To deal with this ransom situation, and it would explain why Livy can't exactly pinpoint for us, where have these state funds been hidden this entire time? What's going on with, you know, the matrons? You know, not, not even all the patricians, are in Rome. It's not like, we're talking about, like all the rich guys stayed behind to fight. No, they didn't. It's just a select group of people, so it's just a question of, yeah, it doesn't seem likely that they're going to have everything that they possibly need, particularly if they are completely under Gaelic control, and the capital was potentially actually seized. At this point in time? Dr G 40:01 Yeah, definitely. And thinking back to earlier accounts of this same situation, we know that even though some of the women stayed that the men weren't happy about that, they thought they were just going to be a burden. Dr Rad 40:18 Well, women can't fight or do anything useful! Dr G 40:25 Not from a Roman perspective, but maybe they were making the bread. Goodness knows, if I was a matron who had finally made some bread and then my fellow men had thrown it off the Capitoline, I mean, I would be ropeable. Dr Rad 40:43 Talk about the mental load. Dr G 40:46 And so even in the context where I think this is a nice, also a literary echo, the idea that the matrons are giving up their jewelry, because this is referencing another moment in history a couple of centuries later. Dr Rad 40:59 Yes, well, we've had this happen before, not that long ago as well, like where matrons have given up, yeah, yeah. Dr G 41:05 And again, probably that one also maybe a literary echo. Dr Rad 41:09 You ruin everything, Dr G. Dr G 41:12 And this idea that in in times where Rome is really in strife, that it's actually the women who come forward and do the thing that needs to be done in order to get things across the line. And so Rome has this sort of ongoing narrative about itself, where, when it when push comes to shove, it is the matrons who stand up, and it makes all of their narratives around women being unhelpful or not useful, not in their place, blah, blah, blah, or the misogyny incredibly infuriating, because every time the Roman men have ruined it to the point where it's not working anymore, those women stand up and say, fine, you know what? I'll get us out of this. Dr Rad 41:58 I'm getting a big scenario here. Okay, so these starving Roman men have just pelted Gallic soldiers underneath with the remaining bread that they have left. And then they turn around, their anger kind of disappears, and they're like, What are we going to do now? And there are some women just sitting there on a couch, and they're like, Well, who needs my help now, boys? Dr G 42:25 Exactly - every time Roman women come through. Dr Rad 42:28 Now, there is a detail that this scholar has highlighted, which I actually probably would have missed, because there's a bit of a gap. We'll come to it later, but there is a bit of a gap in between this moment and when this reference comes up in a few years, when we get to another moment involving our hero of the Capitol, Marcius Manlius Capitolinius, he's going to become a real douchebag in a few years. And when he is being a douchebag, he makes reference to the fact that the patricians are somehow hiding the Gallic gold, and they're somehow abusing public funds. And it's thought that this could be a reference to the fact that it is definitely the plebs that have managed to escape with all their movable wealth, which might be more than usual, because, of course, we've just had the conquest. They things have been going relatively well for Rome. So who knows what the plebs managed to escape with? Who knows what they've got in Veii. But these people who have pitched in to pay this ransom, if they are indeed from outside of the city at this moment in time, they then obviously want that money to be accounted for in the aftermath of this ransom being paid. And there's this very brief reference that sort of indicates that Livy knows, or at least he's repeating something, and maybe he hasn't even picked up on, you know, the significance of what he's sort of saying here, but that there is something else that's gone on here that's been kind of concealed in his original narrative. Dr Rad 42:29 Wow. Look like I said earlier. I think Livy's account has some question marks over it, so... Dr Rad 43:58 Well it does, because, of course, one of the things we're going to get into in the aftermath, and I'm sorry to give this away, but there is going to be disputes about land, as we're going to go back to that old chestnut in a few years. And it's possible that one of the reasons why this pops up is because the plebs contributed to saving Rome in this moment. And therefore, when we're talking about distributing land, which, of course, is a form of wealth, a base of wealth, and particularly in this sort of society here, that there is something to do with this moment of crisis in terms of why they feel perhaps they have a stake in what's going on going forward after this particular moment. Definitely, I think it makes sense to raise all these sorts of questions, and we're about to get to this moment in my account, and I'm sorry again for spoilers, because I don't want to ruin the drama here, but I sort of have to highlight it now. I have no choice, Dr G, Camillus is going to show up in my account whilst this is all happening. Okay, this is where he makes his heroic return. Dr G 45:17 Agent of chaos - back on the scene. Dr Rad 45:19 Yeah, absolutely. And he's going to set everything to rights. Don't you worry. Dr G, here he comes to save the day. But it's possible that the Gauls are the ones that actually get screwed over here. So we have this account, obviously, where the Gauls are being tricksy, because, you know, that's what they're like. Where's their code of honour? But what if it's actually the other way around, and Camillus showing up here? Maybe Camillus is showing up to make the payment, or maybe there's, maybe there's a band of Romans showing up to make the payment, and then they get all tricksy. Dr G 45:59 I'm going to hold on to to what I've said earlier, which is that there was at least one other scholar in my corner who says Diodorus Siculus has the most accurate account of the stuff that's going on. Dr Rad 46:12 Look, I have read such things, even though it seems ludicrous. Dr G 46:16 And the thing is that Camillus is in no way involved in the Gallic siege, beginning to end. He's not there. He's just not there, and he turns up not only after the Gauls have left, so they've received their payment and keeping to their word, although winking and laughing to themselves as they go, being like, wasn't that a bit of fun. As they exit stage left, the Volscians enter stage right. And it is only when the Volscians have turned up being like, oh, Rome, this is the best thing we've seen. Look at you now, and the Volscians are gearing up for what they think is going to be a very easy takedown of Rome at this point, because the Romans are just sort of lying on the Capitol line Hill being like, I'm so glad the Gauls have gone and I don't even know what I'm going to eat, because there's nothing up here, and I don't know if I can crawl down far enough to find a piece of bread that I threw three days ago. And while they're doing that, the Volscians are like and it is only then, it seems, that Camillus sort of emerges out of the countryside with a fully fledged force that he's been gathering for quite some time, probably made up from the folk of Veii and people he's come across in the countryside who are also Roman, who like, oh, Camilius! Ah! Well! And he has turned up, and it's the Volscians that he engages with initially, because that's the most immediate threat that Rome is facing. Dr Rad 47:59 Well, look, I am just going to say that Livy's account is far more comforting than this rubbish you are spewing, Dr G, if we go with Livy's account, then the Romans are not so impious or lame as to use their temple treasures in order to pay the Gauls. They hold onto the Capitol. There is no complete Gallic invasion the Romans at least, can say that they've done their duty to the city, and then they get Camillus to show up and put everything to right and put those freaking barbarians in their place. Livy's account is the account to go for because, let me tell you. Dr G, this is the moment where Camillus settles up. Because, of course, the gods are not going to let the Romans be pulverized into the ground because they've been doing the right thing. They've been making sure that everything is appropriate. So it's whilst there's argument over the weight where the Romans keep saying, No, I refuse to believe that this is 1000 pounds in gold. I think you're being a tricksy little Gaul. And the Gauls are saying, I am so evil. I have no interest in your concerns, Roman accountant. Dr G 49:18 And it's like, what are you gonna do about it? How you're going to stop me? Dr Rad 49:21 Exactly. So the stalling is when Camillus enters the scene and no money has actually changed hands. So the shame of Rome is somewhat averted by the entrance of Camillus, because whilst they're about to make the payment, they don't. No, instead, Camillus shows up and says, hey guys, why don't you make like a tree and leave the Gauls say, I don't think so, mate, we had a deal. Now this, of course, is the moment where maybe Camillus is actually showing up with the money the Gauls are just waiting to get the money. And instead of paying them, Camillus and his band start a war. And the Gauls are like, what the hell I thought we had a deal? Dr G 50:09 I don't want to say that this is almost unbelievable, but there's a lot of holes in this story. Dr Rad 50:15 It gets better. Camillus then says, pish-tosh, your deal is null and void because you made it with some other magistrate, some lowly military tribune with consular power. Whereas I am dictator. So put that in your pipe and smoke it King Brennus. Instead of a pile of gold, I'm going to be giving you a steaming pile of war. How do you like that? Dr G 50:46 I do like how the Romans have turned into British imperial, aka Star Wars style. Dr Rad 50:53 Entirely intentional, I assure you. I'm just following Livy's account to the letter. Dr G 51:00 Look. So problem number one the timeline. Camillus is not here. He's just not here. He's somewhere else. He doesn't turn up. The money definitely changes hands. As far as Diodorus Siculus is concerned, the Romans give over the 1000 pounds of gold. The Gauls start to walk away. In Diodorus' account, Camillus isn't even appointed dictator until he turns up and the Volscians are already at Rome's door. And Rome is like, We really need your assistance. And he's like, Well, I need to be able to command troops, because I don't have permission to do that, because I'm an exile. And they're like, oh, right, right, right, right, right. Quick meeting. Quick meeting. Quick dictator title is offered. And so it's this idea in this intense situation where the Gauls are moving off into the distance with all of the treasure, the Volscians there being like, and the Romans are like, okay, we'll make it legal for you to lead this army that you've turned up with. Camilius, please, please, please. And he's like, sure thing now that I have the legal right to do so, I'm willing to help out. And the moment of the dictatorship is post 1000 pounds of gold. It is also post the arrival of the Volscians and he's very late in the piece. So his contribution, essentially, to the Gallic sack of Rome is zero, because by the time that he turns up the Gallic sack has happened, and he's just picking up the crumbs and being like, I'll help you guys out. It's probably time that I did something. And everyone's like, please do you're the only one who's been fed in six months. Dr Rad 52:48 Look, I don't enjoy these moments. Dr, G, but I mean, you're just so wrong. Camillus is quite clearly coming in like the white knight that he is. He then turns around to the soldiers that he's been drilling Rocky 1975 style, and says, throw your packs down on the ground, get your weapons. We're gonna win Rome's freedom through iron, not gold. Who's with me? And everyone loses their minds, because in Livy's account, the Romans now have every motivation to fight. They've got their city not in shambles, even though they kind of keep referencing the fact that it is partly in shambles, not well maintained, their families, but most importantly, their gods, their temples clearly still standing, at least in part. The Capitol, of course, not being touched. And so the grand temple on the Capitol is indeed still standing and of course, the soil, the soil itself from which they were birthed, not really, but let's run with it. They can just see it all before them, everything that their faith, everything that their gods, everything that their land has allowed them to live for and now they get to defend, recover, avenge. Dr G 54:29 Wow. Dr Rad 54:31 Camillus then readies his forces and draws up his battle lines, even though this is incredibly difficult because Rome's landscape is extremely uneven, and there's crap everywhere because it's been devastated, but he always makes sure that the Romans are in the best position possible to give them every chance of winning. The Gauls have no idea what's going on. They didn't expect this. Surprise dictator to show up with his rocky trained Sylvester Stallone forces at his back. They've got their weapons and armor and typically for barbarians, attack with more rage than judgment. Oh yes, we're back into the racist territory here. But fortune was no longer on their side. So they can be as angry as they want. Fortune's back with the Romans, Dr G, they've been punished enough. They've had to watch their city burn in part, kind of, not really. They've had to watch their families leave kind of, maybe not really. It's Rome's moment, and so the Gauls are very quickly overcome. I mean, considering the siege has gone on for as long as it is, it's almost too hard to believe that they are so easily overcome. But this is "Alia Part Two: Judgment Day". Rome gets to win this time. It's all been fixed. But then comes a second battle, which is described as a more regular engagement, which I presume means that everyone knows it's coming this time, and they're, you know, properly attired and ready for it, and that sort of thing... Dr Rad 56:14 Please please. I've got to put on my military boots. Dr Rad 56:18 I didn't even put on my eye makeup. My hair's still in rollers. It happens about eight miles out on the Gabinian Way where the Gauls had withdrawn after their first disastrous defeat by Camillus. But I mean, with Camillus on the Roman side, do they even stand a chance? No, they don't. Dr, G, they definitely do not. And they are defeated again. Dr G 56:40 Wow, yeah, wow. Dr Rad 56:42 I'm as exhausted as a Roman has been on the Capitoline for seven months. Dr G 56:49 Well, look, I look forward to our next episode together, where I will tell listeners and your good self the true history of what happens with Camillus and the Gallic siege. Dr Rad 57:03 I don't think you can come back from this, Dr G, Livy is quite clear that the Gauls are massacred and there's not a single survivor. Dr G 57:09 So there is a lot of material to work with here. Dr Rad 57:13 If that ain't the truth, I don't know what is. I mean, Camillus, this is like, you know, another second founding moment. He's secured Rome, able to head back to Rome, victorious. I mean, just, everything's just perfect again. Dr G 57:26 Everything's fallen into place. Dr Rad 57:29 Totally is. I mean, is there a limit to how many times Camillus can save Rome? I just don't think that there is. Dr G 57:38 Yeah, look, definitely not. I mean, he's done it again. Go sunshine. Dr Rad 57:41 Yep. Everyone's turning around and saying, You know what? We're gonna start calling you Romulus, because you are the second founder of the city, Camillus. Dr G 57:49 Dangerous, dangerous times. Dr Rad 57:52 All right, Dr, G, now that I am spent with all that drama Dr G 57:56 much like the Romans themselves, after these adventures, Dr Rad 57:59 exactly, yeah, I think it's time for the Partial Pick. All right. Dr, G, please tell us what is the Partial Pick? Dr G 58:11 Well, we're going to rate those Romans according to their own criteria that we made up. They are up for a total of 50 golden eagles, 10 in each category. The first category is military clout. Dr Rad 58:29 Well, I mean, can you really put too many eagles on the fact that the Romans have just killed all the Gauls that were besieging them for so long. Dr G 58:41 You have to think about this in terms of the 80% of the episode where they were starving to death. Dr Rad 58:48 I'm taking a Livian approach, where I just focus on the good stuff that makes Rome look better. Dr G 58:53 Only interested in results, guys, results only. Yeah, look, I'm unwilling to overlook the 80% of the terrible times that they had where there was not a whiff of military cloud, there was, in fact, mostly the breeze of things going badly. Dr Rad 59:13 Yeah, okay, look, look, I will concede that it's probably likely that Rome didn't have a good time at this moment. Whether it was 390 BCE or 387 or whatever, it's probably not great. Dr G 59:30 No, yeah, not ideal. I'm glad that they've made a comeback, if we're just basing it on Camillus' military clout, yeah, according to Livy, which - question marks Dr Rad 59:39 Should we have two ratings this time where, like, one's the Livy version was probably what really happened? Dr G 59:46 Yeah, look, I think it might end up being the case that we give a really high score now because Livy's version is so powerful, and then we might give a very different score later, when we get through Diodorus Siculus and what he has to say about the same situation. Dr Rad 59:59 Okay. Let's do it. Let's look at the sunshine and lollipops version. Dr G 1:00:03 As military clout, yeah. And if we're thinking about what Camilo has done according to Livy, very powerful, yeah, very moving, yeah. I mean, just strategy, like, yeah, not just the surprise battle, but also the second earlier, the refounding, the Romulus thing, obviously, that's, that's a 10, like, it does not get better than that. Dr Rad 1:00:24 I know. I mean, it's like a total do over. It's literally the sequel, but it's, it's better than the first movie. And that never happens. Dr G 1:00:33 Yeah, don't turn it into a trilogy, because then things go down, it'll stay with the second film being the best. Dr Rad 1:00:39 Livy's not done with Camillus, yeah. He actually is a bit like Rocky in that he will keep coming back. Will keep coming back, even when he probably shouldn't. Dr G 1:00:46 As long as we get to the Michael B Jordan films later. That's fine by me. So military clout, I'm happy to offer Livy's account just on the basis of just how dramatic it is and how fulsome Camillus powers are. It's definitely a 10. Dr Rad 1:01:02 Thanks. All right, what's our next category then? Dr G 1:01:07 The second category is diplomacy. Dr Rad 1:01:10 Ooh, okay, well, there is some negotiation going on. Dr G 1:01:13 We finally have some diplomacy. We definitely people from different sides coming together. Dr Rad 1:01:20 Yes, it's not great, either the Gauls were very deceptive and using their power to exploit the Romans, or the Romans struck a deal and then stabbed them in the back. Dr G 1:01:34 I mean, the good news is that we don't have to rate the Gauls because it's not their problem, and we only care about what the Romans are up to, really, I think. Dr Rad 1:01:42 This is true either way. I think whichever account you look at that we've talked about today, I think it's probably good for the Romans. The tricky thing is there are other accounts that we haven't got to yet of how the ransom was actually recovered, which is not by Camilius or Roman army, possibly by the people of Caere or maybe even one of Tiberius ancestors in some sort of single combat later on, didn't mention that. Dr G 1:02:17 Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Dr Rad 1:02:19 Yeah Dr G 1:02:20 Yeah. We won't get to those. So as terms of how the diplomacy has gone for the Romans, in the version that we've looked at, which is predominantly Livy at the moment, yeah, also a little bit of Plutarch, yeah, the diplomacy has been the Romans have done their best, and even when the Gauls have goaded them and poked them and being like, whoa, to the conquered and all of that kind of stuff. And uploaded the more items - uploaded? Dr Rad 1:02:45 Get the t shirt, get the merch. Dr G 1:02:49 Whack another shield on the scale, and are having a cheeky time about it. The Romans have matched them yes to get out of this situation. So the Romans, For the first time maybe have been pretty proactive in their diplomacy, because they're at their wit's end, and they know that. They don't - they're in a corner. They they must do something. Dr Rad 1:03:11 How diplomatic thought is it there that their first round of negotiations ended up with them throwing their bread supplies? Dr G 1:03:18 Well, we can certainly give them a lower score. Dr Rad 1:03:20 I don't approve of the throwing of baked goods in diplomatic situations, Dr G. Dr G 1:03:25 It's a waste of a good pastry, that is. And I disapprove from a love of carbs perspective, Dr Rad 1:03:31 Absolutely. Dr G 1:03:31 So I think diplomacy may be a five. Dr Rad 1:03:34 Okay, all right, yeah, fair enough, yeah. I'll sit with that. Dr G 1:03:37 Then we move on to expansion. Dr Rad 1:03:39 Okay. Well, no matter what account you look at, no is the answer. Dr G 1:03:44 We'll have none of that around here. It's not the time. Dr Rad 1:03:46 No, even if we go with Livy's very sunshiny version of things, they're just getting back what they had taken from them in a very humiliating way. Dr G 1:03:56 This is true. This is true. Dr Rad 1:03:57 Yeah, Dr G 1:03:58 Virtus? Dr Rad 1:04:00 Okay, well, I think maybe Camillus. Come on. You know, you wanna... Dr G 1:04:08 What has he done? What has he done? Dr Rad 1:04:10 He's been there, Dr G as the dictator. He's trained an elite force of 80s action heroes for your benefit. Dr G 1:04:19 Doom do-do-dooo Dr Rad 1:04:24 Yeah. I think Camillus definitely deserve some points here if we're sticking with our pattern. Dr G 1:04:33 But is that virtus? I mean, that's military prowess. Sure, that's training up some people. That's getting people fired up. But does that constitute an understanding of Roman manliness in this moment? I'm not sure that it does. Dr Rad 1:04:48 I feel like it does, because of what he says to them. You know, when he turns up and the Romans are trying to be diplomatic about the fact that they're starving to death and the Gauls are piling shields onto the weights, and the Romans are like, I don't really have the strength to raise my index finger, but I must object to these goings on. It's just not cricket. Camilius shows up in this moment and is like, we're not paying you a goddamn thing. You can take your crap and get out of here. We're gonna win it back through military powers. I kind of feel like that's got a bit of a virtus moment to it, you know, like, maybe not like a 10, but I feel like it's, it's something, and then he massacres them, kills every single Gaul. Dr G 1:05:35 Every single one. Dr Rad 1:05:38 Yeah, I mean, practically single handedly. Now I'm embellishing, my embellished account, but Dr G 1:05:42 What a man, what a man, what a man, what a migthy good man. Dr Rad 1:05:46 He's a mighty mighty good man. Dr G 1:05:49 Camillus, er, virtus, er... Dr Rad 1:05:51 I want to take a minute or two to give much respect to, to the man that's made a difference in Rome's world Dr G 1:05:56 I do love that song, one of the classics. Okay, so what would you rate this virtus? Because I'm still a bit on the fence, so I'm interested in your perspective on this. Dr Rad 1:06:06 I know it's not one of those sorts of moments where, like, the gods are literally shining a beam of sunshine on his head whilst he single handedly charges into battle in like, slow motion and all that kind of stuff. But I feel like it's got to be like, maybe a two, you know, just something, because I feel like it's a moment. It's a moment. I mean, you get called the second founder of Rome. I feel like it's, it's something. Dr G 1:06:30 Oh, yeah, I'm not sure that that's virtus, though. I'm pretty sure that that sort of encapsulates other things. But, yes, all right, two. Dr Rad 1:06:37 No, but I think, you know, the the title reflects the deeds, you know, like the look, I'm just, I'm just on a high right now, and I demand those points. You can't quote Salt'N'Peppa at me and not expect me to fight for my man. Dr G 1:06:53 Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah, happy for it to be. Thank you. I appreciate it. The final category is the citizen score. Dr Rad 1:07:01 Okay, well, again Dr G 1:07:03 It depends on which citizen you are really. Dr Rad 1:07:05 Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you're in exile, maybe it's all right, but if we go with what was suggested by the academic I read, then they're having to pay tax and they're not even in the city. Dr G 1:07:20 Yeah, not a lot of benefit there. Dr Rad 1:07:23 No. I mean, the women are involved, Dr G, the women, Dr G 1:07:26 Even the women! Dr Rad 1:07:28 Yeah, that's not a good sign. I saw gold jewelry. They don't have any anymore. They don't have any. I've given it away for a good cause, room itself. Even though I'm so weak from hunger, I need to have a statement necklace. Hold body upright, show off décolletage... Dr G 1:07:50 Don't make me give up the family jewels. I'll die with this brooch. Dr Rad 1:07:54 I need to have a shiny ring, so when I flip the gauze off, it sparkles in their eyes. Dr G 1:08:02 So it's not a great time to be a patrician matron, I would say. Dr Rad 1:08:06 No, well, I mean nobody. I mean if you're in the city, you're starving to death and possibly taken captive Dr G 1:08:11 Not ideal. If you're in Veii, you're kind of looking wistfully over yonder, being like, I don't know if this is going to work out for us. And if you're in Camillus training camp, you're probably like, let's get jacked. Dr Rad 1:08:24 Well, I mean, let's face it, is that a good time, not a good time in my books? Dr, G, that's why I've never been fit a day in my life. So, yeah, I think if you're in the whether you're in the Rocky montage, or whether you're in exile somewhere else, or whether you're starving to death on the Capitoline, it's not good, okay? Camillus is the only one happening in good time, right? Dr G 1:08:43 He does count as a citizen as well, I suppose so. It sounds to me like we're dealing with something between a zero and maybe a one. Dr Rad 1:08:51 I think zero, yeah, it's got to be zero. I think, yeah. Dr Rad 1:08:54 Well done and dusted. Dr Rad 1:08:56 All right, Dr, G, that means that, surprisingly, the Romans have, once again, managed to get a far higher score than I thought. But let's face it, that's mostly down to Livy. So Livy, this one's for you. Rome gets 17 golden eagles. None of them probably deserved. Dr G 1:09:15 Wow. The power of a good narrative, Livy, he's really selling us a tale, isn't he? Dr Rad 1:09:20 Hey, what can I tell you? I mean this, this is a lesson in ancient historiography. You know, you got a right to please the people. Got to have some flair. Can't just be fact, fact, fact. Yeah, have that space, that space, that Roman spice, that patrician spice. Dr G 1:09:39 Well, I really look forward to getting together next time and maybe talking a little bit more about what Diodorus Siculus has to say about this whole situation, and just see maybe where the narrative lands. Dr Rad 1:09:52 Then I'm going to put quite a limb. Dr, G and say I'm seeing a part seven in our future. Dr G 1:10:00 Quite possible. In terms of my notes, we have made very little progress in this episode. Dr Rad 1:10:05 Like a paragraph long. Dr G 1:10:06 I've gotten through two dot points. It's really not enough. I thought I'd get through maybe five. Dr Rad 1:10:11 I'm sorry. It's just, you know what? You've got to follow the money. Dr, G, you've got to follow the money. Dr G 1:10:17 Yeah, oh yeah. Well, I'll continue to do that in my research, and we'll see where that leads us next time. Dr Rad 1:10:23 See you. Dr, G. Dr G 1:10:25 Farewell. Dr G 1:10:32 Thanks for listening. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can find us on Patreon and Ko-Fi. We've also published two books on ancient Roman history. "Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome", examines the different literary accounts of the earliest rulers recorded in Roman history. "Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire" is full of the sorts of stories the Romans wished you didn't know about them, and is guaranteed to make the interesting conversation. Thank you to all our Patreon supporters. We are truly humbled by your patronage. Transcribed by https://otter.ai