Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep. 296 - Why Are There So Many Christian Denominations?

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Ep. 296 - Why Are There So Many Christian Denominations? · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Listen, the existence of numerous Christian denominations is not necessarily a bad thing, and that's one of the things that I think we have to convey to our Catholic friends or the skeptics that are just raising this question with a genuine thought.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: It's just hey, why are there so many different denominations, as you were talking about there?
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Easy, right that.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: I think Carm did a really great job with Matt Slick and he broke down the different sorts of essentials that we need to examine here.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Right Within the denominations that have the primary essentials, right, then we would look at them as orthodoxy.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: It's okay, you are welcome within the denomination, even though we disagree in this area.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: But the primary essential issues Matt Slick breaks down.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: He says listen, we have to get these key beliefs correct in order to be considered Orthodox.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Here we have the Trinity.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: We have to agree in the Trinity the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, salvation by grace through faith alone, christ's resurrection, the gospel and monotheism.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Right, there's one God.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Next, we have secondary essential issues.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: You don't necessarily have to have this completely down to understand it, but it's still essential.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: It just doesn't fall underneath that realm of I have to get this absolutely right in order to get to heaven.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: You have the authority of Scripture, the inerrancy of the Bible, justification by faith and substitutionary atonement.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: You don't have to completely understand those areas in order, just like theement.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: You don't have to completely understand those areas in order, just like the Trinity.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: You don't have to completely understand the Trinity in order for it to be so right.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: And there's some overlapping in the midst of this as well.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: And then you have the non-essential issues right the church governance, modes of baptism, like you were mentioning.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: There you have immersion versus sprinkling.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: So that's what we would see as maybe differences and maybe some are out of category.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Even in the midst of that, it depends on who you talk to.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: But the essential issues is who is Christ?
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: How do I get to heaven?
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Let's really break it down to that who is Christ and how does one get to heaven?
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: I call it mental terrorism, friends.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: And no, it's not what I do to your mind.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: It's what Ray Comfort does to my mind when he pops up in it in all sorts of different interesting scenarios.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: The most recent one this morning was Ray riding a new autonomous bike with a recliner on it and one of those air conditioning systems, like the window unit ones, and chickens buzzing around him.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: No, man, this is your imagination, yeah, it just happens.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah Well, that's not imagination.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Leave my mind, that's called inspiration, oh, inspiration for the imagination.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, ray.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Why do you torment my mind?
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: Because you've got to be humbled.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: That's what it is.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I'm getting humbled by it.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Ray, if you could and there was like this bubble around you and these chickens flying around and you're on this recliner and it's autonomous and you're doing these things, if you could have an autonomous bike that just like you know the new autonomous cars, tesla or whatever you could program it, it takes you wherever you don't have to pay attention to the road.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: What would you include in that bubble?
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: of the autonomous.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: Cereal, there's no question.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Why Like a cereal bathtub?
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Absolutely Mouth open.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: That's an idea.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: You've always talked about cereal pools, but you could do it at home in your bathtub.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: I've seen YouTube clips of pools full of cereal, like real ones.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, swimming pools, of pools full of cereal Like real ones.
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: Swimming pools, ah yeah, We'll have to check those out.
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: Maybe a fun birthday present.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: We should do that for Ray.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: We should, even if it's a kiddie pool.
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: You want to blow up kiddie pools?
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Just have them pull up to the office and there's a pool full of cereal Look his mind's going right now and a giant spoon.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: I that on the weight cans in my house?
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be fun.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Guys, I wanna ask you this question, and it's one that may catch you off guard.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: No show, no what?
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: No way, no nothing, I ask, could ever catch you off guard.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: No yeah, If you could be Ray for a day.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: If you could be Ray for a day, what would that day look like?
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Suicide.
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: I would just hang out at my beach house.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: After you get there on private, on your private jet yeah.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've always thought of that.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: What would my, what would my life be like being Ray for a day?
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: I think I I definitely recruit some uh first aid services to protect me from I am a klutz.
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it would be really fun to duck under a dog.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: Was a wiener to duck under a dog.
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: What's a wiener dog?
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Duck under a dog.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Okay, help me understand this.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that up, ray.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: I don't understand wiener dogs and why anyone?
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: They're the little sausage dogs.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, why anyone would have a wiener dog?
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: They're wonderful.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: You like wiener dogs, ray, I like any dogs.
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: Dachshunds, except pit bulls.
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: Doxins, is that their name?
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, why are you racist against pit bulls?
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: Ray, because they kill people and kill babies.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: Check it out, just Google pit bulls and deaths of kids, and they eat them.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Would that be an owner problem that they didn't train their dog?
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: No, they've been bred to be aggressive.
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: You know how many emails we're going to get now from pit bull lovers.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: You know there's like diehard pit bull people.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: My sister has a pit bull that is the correct word Die hard.
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: My sister has a pit bull.
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: She only has one arm now, but she loves that guy.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, but guys, honestly, let me ask you this, because there are and I've wanted to ask pit bull owners this like would you, oscar, even if you had a pit bull that you raise in your house, is your sister's pit bull a tame pit bull?
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like, yeah, would you trust that pit bull around your baby if you had a baby?
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: I don't trust my dogs around my baby, yeah right.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: But there's something, though, about a pit bull that, as nice as it is, I just I couldn't go there.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Why are you a pit bullist?
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: A pit bull is good way to put it.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, forget wiener dog.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: Data collection they found 346 of the 521 deaths from pit bull attacks.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Wow, 540, what yeah?
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: from the data collection they found 346 of the 521 deaths from pit bull attacks.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: Rockwell has made up 10%.
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: Wow yeah.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, vicious dogs.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Keep them away from Ray.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: All right, friends, time for a cool, classy comment.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: This is from Alana.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Hello, from a recent listener in British Columbia, canada, I found your podcast a little while ago while I was searching for Christian discussions on transgenderism and the Bible.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: One of my brothers had recently revealed to us that he was transgender and in the midst of great grief, I was listening to every podcast and sermon I could find on what God's Word says about gender and our identities.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Your discussion on this topic was both very encouraging and very heart-wrenching for me, as it allowed me to stand strong in my biblical beliefs but also made me an enemy to my brother and his current worldview.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: Your podcast has been something I've been listening to nearly every morning while playing with my toddler since God led me to it, and I have found both comfort and conviction in listening to your biblical conversations.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: Found comfort Do you see Ray's head going?
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: She found comfort.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Thank you for continuing to point me and others back to the divine word of God and reminding us to structure our entire lives around his glory and his revealed will to us.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Oscar, is that a good way of articulating what our desire is for the podcast?
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: It's so encouraging, the Lord would use four ridiculously dumb Three.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: I was going to say three To encourage, notify people.
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: Encouraging that the Lord would use four ridiculously dumb Three, three I was going to say three, three To encourage and edify people.
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: So thank you for that encouragement, amen.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Amen, that's so encouraging.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you for writing in, alana, for listening and tormenting your toddler with our voices every day.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: And now a radically revolutionary resource.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: This podcast is brought to you by oh boy, this is going to excite Ray.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: the $100 bill tracked wallet, just that we sold out almost immediately.
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: We had to cut back the offer of them because they're so popular, because you can put million dollar bills in them.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: I've had one in my pocket for 10 years, ray, I've never seen anyone get so excited to pull their wallet out as much as you, and inside the wallet there's million dollar bills.
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: So when you get this out, it gets people's attention.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: When you get this out they take it You've replaced over the years, right.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: I've had this for 10 years.
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: I think I've lost one or two.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: I was going to say that's held up really well.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Ray, this isn't custom right.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: Yes, it isn't custom.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: It's not custom, and so they sell them like this, and you happen to find it.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: Yes, shouldn't we do a million dollar bill?
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: One Got them in bulk.
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: What's that?
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: Shouldn't we do a million dollar bill?
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: One we should, but we'd have to get them, especially made overseas.
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: Wait you can't get this through customs you can no customs, no.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: You can no customs, no.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: But that'd be cool to do a million dollar bill one.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, but it's not as good as the 100.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: Because the 100 gets the world's attention it does.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: All right, make sure to check it out, along with the Living Waters mug and the Evidence Study Bible all at livingwaterscom.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: That's terrible.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty overlappy.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: That made it work.
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: Nobody can say that this ministry centers on selling stuff, because people haven't got a clue what you're doing.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: They don't the worst marketers ever.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and friends.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: On that note, I would like to plug a friend of ours' ministry, friends of ours rather plural Love Life.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: You guys remember the Benham brothers.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: I'm sure, yes, yeah, the twins Great Love Life.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: You guys remember the Benham brothers?
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, great, great guys, good friends of ours.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: I've done the Bible be with them for a number of years and, uh, they've been out to Living Waters.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: We did an event together, actually years ago, and they were launching their ministry.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: This is a ministry that is centered on reaching those that are trying to abort their babies and to save babies from destruction.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: You guys, these guys, have been going out to abortion clinics now for years and hundreds of thousands of people over the course of time have gathered at abortion clinics and what's amazing is they're not out there yelling, screaming, doing crazy things.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: They go out with a group, they pray and then they call out to the ladies with love and gentleness and care, and they've had over 6,000 babies saved from abortion.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's great Almost 1,000 professions of faith, 74 abortion workers who had quit the industry because of their work, and they've got over 1,200 churches that are partnering with them.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: And I got to go out with them, rachel and I, on a prayer walk that they did, and I was moved to tears as I was watching one to two different women come up to them and engage, and there was one couple that ended up leaving the clinic, and so they're doing great work lovelifeorg.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Lovelifeorg, you can find a place where you can volunteer and get connected with them and generously get behind their work.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: And also my friend, sean Thornburg.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: He's the one that I've been connecting with.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: I call him mustache man.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: I don't like mustaches, but his is an exception.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Have you seen it, ray?
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Did you meet Sean when he came?
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: No, I don't meet people's mustaches, I meet people.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, this guy, you meet his mustache Really.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: It's that cool.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty cool.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Anyway, lovelifeorg friends, make sure to check them out.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: All right on to the topic of the day.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: Today, guys, we're talking about why are there so many Christian denominations?
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: You know one of the things that I often will hear from those that object to Christianity like Mormons, like Jehovah's Witnesses, like Catholics Eastern Orthodox, others, Church of Christ there are so many denominations within Christianity, and it's oftentimes the thing that makes them say, nope, that can't be true, because there's so many denominations.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: How do you respond to that?
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's what I want to get into today, and what I think would be good is for us to explore some of the different denominations, look at what are the different views and then what is it that unites us and unifies us as believers and so yeah.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: So my answer to that question is that there are a lot of different denominations within what we would call Orthodox Christianity, and I use that term not in reference to the Eastern Orthodox Church, but in reference to orthodoxy, which means right and true and proper and biblical teaching.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: The reason why there are a lot of denominations is because there are some different secondary and tertiary, doctrinal issues upon which Christians differ.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: That would be one of the main reasons why.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: And so, because of that, there are different traditions that have developed and believers that have been convicted and drawn in different directions, toward different denominations, and again, there are some that are labeled denominations that are outside of the pale of orthodoxy, that we wouldn't count within this, but I'm talking about those that would adhere to the things that unite us, and so, yeah, so yeah, we'll talk about some of that.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: And, oscar, what do you say when people ask you?
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: that question.
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: What say you?
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: I don't see it necessarily as a knock on Christianity, rather an example of how the Lord decides to use his one universal body through different expressions and convictions.
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: And you keyed in on something primary, which is secondary issues.
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: To be clear, when we talk about different denominations, we are not talking about different religions.
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: That's key.
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: When people talk about different denominations outside the church, they often refer to them as though they are different religions.
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: When we talk about Christianity and their different denominations, we are talking about one religion with one central figure and different secondary the word you use secondary or tertiary convictions.
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: And the best way for me to describe that, or the way I've heard it described by other people, is it's almost like the best description I've heard is like the United States.
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: The United States is one country.
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: We are unified, we have one army, we have one vision for what it means to be a people, a nation, and yet within the borders of that one country, you have different states and these different states have different ways, different convictions on how to run their individual states, how they tax people, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: And that same way, the primary issues creates one faith of Christianity.
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: The secondary issues.
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: It's like having different states we're unified, but we just believe in different secondary issues.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: What a great analogy Is that yours?
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: No, I stole it from somebody.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: It's really good, you know, when somebody asks me this question.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Specifically, a Catholic asked me the question.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: I asked them.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Well, which Catholic denomination do they belong to?
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Because there are several different Catholic denominations.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: We have the first and foremost, the most popular one, which is part of the RCC, the Roman Catholic Church, but then there's something like 23 different, separate Catholic denominations, a few of those being the Byzantine Rite, the Alexandria Rite, the Syriac Rite, the Arminian Rite, the Chaldean Rite, and then there's just different offsets of each one of these, but they are all underneath the auspice, if you would, of the Pope, but they are considered different denominations within the Catholic Church.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: We are going to, I guess, get into what those primary, essential issues and secondary, non-essential issues are going to be.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, mark.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you highlighted that, because I'm an example of that within Catholicism.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: I grew up in Lebanon and in fact, my family has a monastery that's been in the Zwayne family for generations.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: Let's go yeah monastery Zwayne Zwayne.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Well, you know.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: Zwayne's ain't monastery.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: They don't do chants, they rap.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: So I but I went to Lebanon years ago and I actually met with the family board.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: There's a Zwayne family board in Lebanon, because the family's huge.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: I mean there's this one city where there's like probably by now, maybe 1,000, 1,500 Zwaynes, back then it was like 750.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine, yeah, all these big eyeball people walking around, how are you?
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: But I remember I mean they were so like into the Zwayne family.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: I remember I was walking around with one of the Zwayne family elders and some car drove by and they weren't Zwaynes and he looks at him and he goes foreigners, foreigners, because they weren't Zwaynes.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: So anyway, yeah, so I met with the family board at the monastery, at the actual monastery, and I shared my testimony in the gospel with them and it was interesting because you could see they're getting along comfortable.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: But I'm like, hey, this is my opportunity to reach my people.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: But I grew up, mark, as you were alluding, in a Catholic denomination or order that was called Maronite, and again, there were differences in there.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: One of the funny ones is that the Catholics will do the sign of the cross usually with three fingers.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: We would do it with five as Maronite, and then they would allow marriage.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: If someone got married before they were a priest, they were permitted to be married, which is different within the Catholic Church.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: So that's a really I love the fact that you point that out.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: It's like wait a minute.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: You have differences within the Catholic Church that deal with what you might call secondary issues.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: So why are you giving us grief as Protestants?
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Because we have the same thing.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: Now I'm envisioning, like some ecumenical council, where a bunch of Zewains are arguing over three fingers versus five fingers.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: No, it is five because you have the whole lamb okay.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: There's not five fingers, there's four fingers, and one thumb.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: Does anyone cross themselves with a thumb?
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Is that a new denomination?
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, it's an issue of these differing things.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: I appreciate the differences within the different denominations and the beauty is that we can hold our differences and yet maintain that unity.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: And I love to see that ecumenical spirit within orthodoxy.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: It's when it drifts outside of those borders that it gets grievous.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: I think there are so many different denominations because there are no two human beings that can agree on one thing.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: I don't agree, I don't agree, I disagree, I don't agree, I don't agree.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: I knew that was coming.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: I disagree.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: I disagree.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: Made my point 2, Timothy 2, 17 to 19.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: Hymenaeus and Philetus, a couple of false prophets, were running around saying the resurrection's already passed and overthrew the faith of some, which is just weird.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: Some guy come in here and says resurrection's passed, you've missed out.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't backslide, have my faith over.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: Are you listening?
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: Ez?
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you weren't even listening.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: You're reading something.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: One trillion percent.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Anyway, it says this their faith was overthrown.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: Nevertheless, the foundation of God stands.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Sure, Having this seal, the Lord knows them that are His.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: Wow, that's the crux of the whole thing.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: When we go through the denominational front door, God goes to the heart and he sees the invisible believer.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: So there's no denominations to God, there's only those that belong to him.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: He that has the son has life.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: He that has not the son has not life.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: The thing is that anyone can start a denomination.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: You could have some charismatic Arab dude who's good at teaching.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: People are going to gather around him and you just start another denomination until that splits when they disagree and you have another denomination.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: And that's how it's happened.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: It's been a case of evolution.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's evolved.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Ray, the rest of that verse that you cited is let anyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: I think that's good to highlight, because that's how you know those that truly believe right In that they depart from iniquity, but in keeping with looking to the Savior who bore that iniquity and it's His imputed righteousness.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: That verse is reminding me of the most embarrassing thing that's ever happened to me in a pulpit.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: I don't know if I've ever shared it with you.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: You're listening easy.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: No, I don't listen to you.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: Is it for?
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: all dogs go to heaven.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, it wasn't that one.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: That was worse.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you've reminded me of that.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: That was terrible.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: I can't even mention that one.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: That was embarrassing.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: This is a church, about 200 people on a Wednesday night, and it's talking about those that name the name of Christ.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: Depart from iniquity and relating it to Lord.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: Lord.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: Many will say to me Lord, depart from me.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: I never knew you, you worker of iniquity.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: I said.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: And then I said and here the Bible is using the same word Let everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: And I said same word and the whole congregation yelled out iniquity at me and I thought why is that?
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: I've sinned, I've done something.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: The whole in unison called out the word iniquity.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: I didn't realize until I listened to the tape.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: They thought I said say the word instead of same word.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: And that pastor probably got them to say words from the.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: So I really thought I'd done some terrible sin right in the middle of preaching and they all called out iniquity.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: It was like a David and Nathan.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was it, and I thought I don't even know Bathsheba.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: What are you talking about?
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: So, anyway, that's so true what you're saying.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: Let everyone that names the name of Christ.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: Apart from iniquity, that is a sign of a genuine Christian who's joined the genuine invisible church.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, mark, I'd love you to highlight that you know the church, because we're talking about the church.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: You know there's a misunderstanding that oftentimes the church is the building.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: You know we're going to church.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: I'd love for you to highlight what is the church biblically.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: The church are the individual believers that Christ ransomed by his blood.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: That's the church, so the church building is not holy.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: However, with that said, I think that we need to have reverence when we're inside the church.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's necessarily a great idea to be running through a church with hula hoops and streamers that when we've gathered together to make much of God and to focus in.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I think that we need to prepare ourselves and I think we should really start preparing ourselves the night before we gather or even in the mornings before we do so.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: And most times, most people, they get inside the arguments and the fights on the way to church and then they get to church and they put on their happy smiles.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: But to answer your question just straightforward, the church is a group of believers, people who have placed their trust in Christ because of what Christ has done, the imputed righteousness.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: That's a hard thing to explain to the world, isn't it?
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: Because they see the church as the building?
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: That's it.
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: Their minds are tied to it.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: Clarify one thing, because I'm picturing someone going oh great, so then the church is me and my buddies sitting in my garage gathering and talking about the Bible.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: And so I would just add the church is the regular gathering of believers who opens God's word, pray and take communion, and that doesn't have to happen in a building that unifies a local church, and then we, as the church, gather, and so that's an important distinction that's to be made, because a lot of people have this again idea it's the church we go to a place, we gather, and I love what you highlighted, oscar.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the church observes the ordinances that were given to it, and yet, at the same time, the church has given to it, and yet, at the same time, the church has given to it by God a structure, and he's established that Ephesians 4, he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints, for the work of ministry.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: The church also practices discipline.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: That's a big part of it as well.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, it's not this kind of amorphous, sort of nebulous organization.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: No, it's made up of God's people.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: We observe the Lord's ordinances, we gather in the Lord's name.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: The word is central.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: We worship the Lord together, we serve the together, we proclaim the gospel together, and so that's really important.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Were you going to say something, ray?
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: Say it yeah, when I came to the US back in 1989, I came in as a New Zealand citizen.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: I was a New Zealander, then I became an American citizen.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: Then I found out in time that I'm not American, I'm actually Caucasian.
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: Oh, did you know that you evolved?
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: We're Caucasian and I thought I'm not a Caucasian.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: What's a Caucasian?
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: I found out Caucasian comes from about 100 years ago Near the Black Sea.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: There's this group of people that are Caucasians and this biologist thought they were so nice and friendly and white and made in God's image, he called them Caucasians, which is a kind of a racist thing.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: It sounds like German Aryans that Hitler so promoted.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: So I don't like being called a Caucasian.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: I'm an American citizen.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: In the same way, I don't like being called an Anglican or a Methodist or whatever a Baptist, because I'm a Christian.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: I don't like it because those denominations come with instant labels.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: You're so non-denominational Baggage yeah, they come with baggage.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: Someone says you're Presbyterian oh, yeah, you believe that as a Presbyterian nation or Baptist, you believe in da-da-da.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: No, I'm a Christian and that's what each of us should really want to be identified because that's biblical.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, christian primarily.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: And then obviously we have those different convictions that unite us in these different sections or circles.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: But the church, the beauty of the church also is its universality.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: I love Revelation 5 where it says he redeemed us to God by His blood from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: That's the beauty, right.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: That's the beauty of the church, and in the first century they were kind of in shock like what do you mean?
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: The gospel to the Gentiles Right?
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: It was blasphemy.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: It was blasphemous and it was revolutionary, because man, the nation of Israel, was called by God to be a light to the world.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Through your seed right, abraham, all the nations of the earth will be blessed Ultimately.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: We know that was in light of the Messiah coming through that lineage, and so the church is universal and the church can be unified because of the truths of His Word.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: I think it's also really valuable for us to recognize the way our church fathers and the way history has worked itself out by God's sovereignty and put us in the place that we are.
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: It gives us a degree of honor and respect for the way in which God is working through different denominations and using Bruce Shelley's book Church History in Plain Language, which is one of the best books on, church history.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: One of my favorites.
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: Love that book and then, using another resource, I put together a real brief history of denominations that I'm going to read through real quick.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: It's going to be like two minutes long, so I apologize.
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: Brief, real brief, okay.
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: So the early church was founded by Jesus and the apostles.
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: The early church had a problem, though it was illegal to the Roman empire, which is where most of Christians lived.
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: But despite being illegal, christianity kept spreading, no matter how much the Romans tried to persecute it, until eventually the Roman empire became a Christian empire, with Rome being at the capital of the church.
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: But the Roman empire split into East and West, and the East was only one half that survived and became the Byzantine Empire, and a lot of people thought that the Byzantines were actually in charge of the church, not the Romans, because it was the Byzantine emperors who would call the ecumenical councils where most of the important church decisions were made.
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: They were still united with Rome at the time, but then they started to disagree on who was really in charge and they had a huge disagreement, which was a great schism, and both of them thought they were kicking each other out, and so now you have the Eastern Orthodox Church, which was the Byzantine Empire until the Byzantine Empire fell, when Constantinople fell.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: Then you shift over to the West with Roman Catholic Church.
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: The Lutheran Church became directly out of the Protestant Reformation, which is where a bunch of Catholics thought the Catholic church had gotten more corrupt over time and was abandoning the beliefs of the Bible in the early church.
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: So Martin Luther nails his 95 thesis to the door of a church, hoping for reformation, not trying to start a new church, but he gets excommunicated and a bunch of Catholics actually sympathize with him.
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: And so then Lutheranism was born out of the reformation.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: But Luther was only willing to side with people who agreed with him on the Lord's supper, which is that bread and wine were physical body and blood of Christ.
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: And some people agreed with them and they became Lutherans, and all of the reformed people who didn't agree with them became the reformed church.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: And so now the non-Lutherans are Reformed and the Lutherans are the Lutherans.
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: Then Calvin came along, and the ideas of him were so influential that it standardized the Reformation tradition, including the Lord's Supper and infant baptism.
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: None of these things were new beliefs.
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: He found these systems through traditions that predated the Roman Catholic Church.
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: The Reformation theology spread to many places, which is why you've got German reformed, hungarian reformed, dutch reformed.
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: The Dutch were pretty amazing.
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: Then Anglicanism comes from the same Protestant Reformation.
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: Thomas Cramer was the theological head of the English Reformation and he wanted the Church of England to embrace the Reformed ideas.
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: But the Church of England had a problem in that the monarchy vacillated between being Reformed and being Catholic.
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: So the Church of England settled on a middle way, compromising on some Catholic teachings and Protestant teachings.
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: The Scots were not on board with this.
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: They're the Presbyterians.
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: They're basically just reformed people from Scotland.
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: The reason they call themselves Presbyterians is because of the way in which they run their church government.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: The Episcopalians in England kept trying to impose the church government structure on the Scrotus Presbyterians.
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: They were like, hey, you guys should become a Presbyterian.
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: And they were like, yeah, we don't want anything to do with the king.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: And so the Presbyterians removed themselves from that which was considered a spirit of rebellion, which is why a lot of people called the American Revolution the Presbyterian revolt, because it was noticed as a Presbyterian revolution.
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: The Anabaptists, which were Amish, came around the same time of the reformation, but they were different from the reformers.
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: They were much more radical.
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: In the Reformation, the Anabaptists saw themselves as starting from scratch, not being from the Catholic church, and all they did is wanted to start their own institution.
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: So they separated themselves from the secular government and they did not baptize babies because they said that being a Christian needed to be a personal, individual choice.
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: So are the Baptists Anabaptists, kind of it's complicated.
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: Officially they came to the Church of England when a bunch of preachers split off because they wanted their church of independence but they couldn't get it.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: Then the Congregationalists were kind of like the Baptist, but they wanted their church independent, kind of like the Baptist.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: So all of these reformed people basically gathered together and created their own churches.
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: And here's the thing that's really funny.
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: Is that the reason why we all argue over who's who in awkward conversations is because the Calvinists got a little too Calvinistic for each other and they ended up moving to the United States.
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: Then the Methodist was started by John Wesley by accident.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: He didn't mean to start a church, he was just trying to see a revolution happen.
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: Then the Holiness Church comes to the second grade of waking.
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: They were basically a bunch of Methodists who got two Methodists for even the Methodists.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: They thought that the normal Methodists were not going hard enough and so they started focusing on striving for spiritual growth and avoiding sin.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: Then you get to the Pentecostals, which started in the 20th century with the Azusa Street Revival which is where a bunch of Methodists got two.
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: Methodists for the two Methodist Methodists and started healing and doing prophecy and speaking in tongues, and so that is essentially the Western way in which you look at the denomination.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: I don't care, just preach the gospel no, no, no.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: Could you run through that again?
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: Sure, From the top I haven't even gotten to the Eastern Orthodox.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: That was actually good, great we should make a little video on that, seriously Like a little cartoon video, you know what?
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Remember those videos where that guy's voice, and then this and then this happened.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it would be a great video, Oscar.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: that's great.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: So did you say that's?
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: from Bruce Shelley.
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: I adopted it from Bruce Shelley in something else.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: You kind of combined it and you took littleats everything I was going there.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Thank you, oscar, for hijacking my notes.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: No, it was good because I was going to highlight, you know, have us highlight some of the different things.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so like, look in summation, you've got differing views on some soteriological issues, right, you've got Calvinists, those that lean that way as you talk in the Reformed tradition.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: You've got those that maybe have more of an Arminian perspective on things.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Sometimes there's some strong feelings in those realms, but you recognize that there are those within orthodoxy that look and say, no, these are genuine believers.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: We have differing views but they're not obliterating the heart of the gospel, right, you have issues of baptism.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Do you immerse?
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Do you sprinkle?
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: You have yeah, sprinkle with 40 gallons of water would solve that problem.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Water fall them.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got infant baptism.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: You've got credo baptism, which is believers baptism.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: You've got different ecclesiology dealing with church government.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: What kind of leadership structure do you have?
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: You have views on the gifts.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: Are the spiritual gifts still for today?
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: The signed gifts Are they not?
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: So those are basically the issues and when we do our academies, we have people come from different denominations.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: I love that.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: And it's beautiful to see that.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: And we always tell them look, the heart of this is for us to go out and to proclaim the gospel that we all agree about, and Ray, isn't that beautiful.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: And it's worked for 26 academies, is it?
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we've never had a schism, schism.
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's wonderful, and that's what the whole body of Christ should be like.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: All dwelling together but the unified purpose striving together for the faith of the gospel.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you don't divide.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: It's not like essential things like black coffee or creamer that you can't be united on, but those things you can unite on, yeah, so what?
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: I haven't thought about it yet South, south, south, south south Listen the existence of numerous Christian denominations is not necessarily a bad thing, and that's one of the things that I think we have to convey to our Catholic friends or the skeptics that are just raising this question with a genuine thought.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: It's just hey, why are there so many different denominations, as you were talking about there?
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Easy, right that.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: I think Carm did a really great job with Matt Slick and he broke down the different sorts of essentials that we need to examine here.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Right Within the denominations that have the primary essentials, right, then we would look at them as orthodoxy.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: It's okay, you are welcome within the denomination, even though we disagree in this area.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: But the primary essential issues Matt Slick breaks down.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: He says listen, we have to get these key beliefs correct in order to be considered orthodox.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Here we have the Trinity.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: We have to agree in the Trinity the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, salvation by grace through faith alone, christ's resurrection, the gospel and monotheism.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: Right, there's one God.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Next we have secondary essential issues.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: You don't necessarily have to have this completely down to understand it, but it's still essential.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: It just doesn't fall underneath that realm of I have to get this absolutely right in order to get to heaven.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: You have the authority of scripture, the inerrancy of the Bible, justification by faith and substitutionary atonement.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: You don't have to completely understand those areas in order, just like the Trinity.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: You don't have to completely understand the Trinity in order for it to be so right, and there's some overlapping in the midst of this as well.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: And then you have the non-essential issues the church governance, modes of baptism, like you were mentioning there.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: You have immersion versus sprinkling Worship styles.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: We have brethren out there that do not want to include instruments in their worship.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: You know, god bless you.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: Some lift the hands, Some lift one hand.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Some lift two fingers, some lift the feet.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: They slightly lift their hands.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: He lifts his feet in worship.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: I'm all yours, lord, every part of me Like a dead bug.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: I can handle it.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: There's also eschatology, differences, end time events yes, no, there's not.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: There's dietary practices, even in the midst of it as well.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's what we would see as maybe differences, and maybe some are out of category even in the midst of that.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Depends on who you talk to.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: But the essential issues is who is Christ, how do I get to heaven?
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Let's really break it down to that who is Christ and how does one get to heaven?
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you know, on this note, unity would be a good thing for us to talk about here, a little bit Like being able to be mature enough to say I'm really not going to make an issue out of this.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Like I love theological debate in terms of like sitting down with a brother that I know and who knows me, and we're going to just really get into it.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we can laugh and joke, but there's a lighthearted spirit about it.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: You know, there's this maturity of look, we recognize these things.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: They are a bit difficult to understand, and wouldn't you say, oscar, that a part of that is that spirit of humility that scripture talks about?
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: Absolutely the humility of recognizing that we've been influenced by where we got saved and whatnot.
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: But in addition to that, the humility of recognizing that it's a privilege, especially in the United States, to be able to say I'm going to go to a church with these convictions because it shares a conviction with me.
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: I say it's a privilege because I had a conversation with a guy who moved from the Middle East in a persecuted nation and he was in Long Beach and we were talking.
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: I asked him what is the difference that's a key difference between the Christianity you experience here in America versus what you did in the Middle East.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: And he was like here in America, you guys separate yourself by denomination.
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: He believes this, he believes that he goes in the Middle East.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: That's not on the radar.
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: You meet a Christian.
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: You're just like you're a christian you too.
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: You know, because they just, to them, it's just survival.
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: There's no denomination, there's no conviction.
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: I mean, surely there's convictions, but over there it just doesn't matter.
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: No, they're just uh, they're just one body surviving.
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: And so I think humility comes with recognizing that we have a great privilege and that we get to talk about these things and choose the church based on our personal convictions.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: So, speaking of that, you walk in, you get moved to a different city and you're with your family.
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: How do you choose a new church?
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: You sit down the back and you say I'm going to listen for a couple of weeks.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: How would you choose that church?
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, the first thing I would do and today we're fortunate that we can do that because of our technology I would go online, I would check out their statement of faith.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: That would be the first thing I would do, and I say that from the standpoint of that you can even tell if that church may not be very theologically grounded, because some don't even have a statement of faith.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Or you could see it and it's really shallow.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: You're looking and you're thinking, okay, well, they're hitting most of the essentials.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: But I love it when I go on a church website and there's this robust, like very thorough and deep statement of faith and even though I may not agree with all of that, like we're talking about within the secondary and tertiary issues, I'm just like you know what?
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: I don't fully agree per se, but boy, they care and this is really really important to them.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: So I think that would be the first thing.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: The next thing I would want to know is this church evangelistic?
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Do they care about the lost?
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Because if they don't, I know that I'm about to join a church that's heading towards atrophy and a church that's inward and a church that has missed, like our main calling as believers, to be salt and light in the world, you know.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: And so, from there, I would look at their leadership structure, I would see if there's accountability between their leaders, and what you might want to do for those of you listening, is meet with the leadership, meet with one of the pastors, one of the elders, and ask these questions, not in an interrogation type of way, but just like, hey, I'm really desiring to know what's their leadership structure like.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: Do they have accountability between their elders?
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: At our church, at Kindred Community Church, all of our elders meet for accountability on a weekly basis and they get accountable.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: They read books together, you know, and then they get together and I think weekly or monthly for accountability, I can't remember but then they it's every year, yeah, every 10 years, but then they, you know, they get together and they do their meetings.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: So those are some of the things.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: What do you guys think?
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Anything else come to mind in that vein, I would add local and available.
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: And the reason why I say that is because we're actually in a situation where our former church closed down and I have very specific set of theological convictions, both primary and secondary, and to be honest, we're in a situation where the closest church to us that meets those secondary convictions to the T is like 40 miles away.
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: But for me I'm not going to spend 35 minutes on a Sunday going to church because how do I get to become a part of that community?
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: And so here's a situation where, at least where my conviction lands local and available is one of the other things.
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: I can look at that secondary issue of this particular church and go, okay, that's not I disagree with this secondary issue, but on the primaries we agree and it's local and it's available, in which I don't just show up on Sunday and consume church, but I can actually be a part of this community, which is what the Lord calls us.
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: Because to be a member of a church is not to be a consumer on a Sunday of the church.
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: That 100% agrees with all of your convictions.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: To be a member of a church on a Sunday is to be a family member and to do life with the people in that body, and so I would just add to what you said local and available is important as well.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, amen, mark, do you have anything?
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: No, that's great, I love it.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, local and available.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: I wanted to back up a little bit before Ray raised up that question, with Oscar talking about unity and even you as well, Easy, I came across a couple of quotes that I think are really great.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: You have all of these different denominations and I think that this speaks well within the denominations.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: When people start raising the questions and saying it's a red flag because there's so many different denominations, what they need to understand.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: As John Erickson Tata said, that Christ never commanded us to be one, right?
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Well, she said it like this believers are never told to become one.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: We already are one.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: Now we're expected to act like it.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Amen, so we can receive each other underneath that umbrella that we are one in Christ.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Now we can agree to disagree and still talk about any other thing that we want to talk about.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Sinclair Ferguson, he worded it like this if Christ is not ashamed to indwell them, I will not be slow to embrace them.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: So we can agree to disagree on modes of baptisms or anything else, but listen, we're brothers and sisters in Christ.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: There's no issue because there's more denominations than what somebody may think that there needs to be.
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: Wow, I mean what a great example of we've already touched about it but living waters, or even at this table, the four of us don't totally agree on secondary issues.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: Yes, we do.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: No, we don't.
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: And yet that's never gotten in the way of not only our friendship, but the way we encourage one another and the way we work together for the sake of the gospel.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that, yeah, I love that, yeah, and I love that quote, mark, that is so beautiful, like if my Savior is willing to indwell them, whoa, I mean, it's convicting, you know, and I love that, that we're not striving to be one, we are one.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Now let's function like it.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: So good, you know, it's the same thing, like I always say, you know, we are ambassadors for Christ.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Now, what kind are we and are we fulfilling what we're called to do?
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, and I love what Augustine said.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: Augustine said Definitely, augustine In the non-essentials, liberty in the essentials, unity in all things, charity, it's good, yeah, you know.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: Psalm 119, verse 63.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: We're all familiar with that.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: I'm a companion of all who fear you and all those who keep your precepts.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: And you know, one of my favorite words in the English language, the, as it relates to Christians, is the word brother, the word sister.
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: I love that word.
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: It's great when you've forgotten their name.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, brother, it's a good indicator you forgot their name.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, brother, it's a good indicator.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: You forgot their name.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: Hey, brother, but no brother and sister.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's something precious about what that means.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: We are unified, we are one, we have the same father.
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: There's nothing that unifies like severe persecution.
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: I mean we would never, ever greet one another with a holy kiss unless we were being slaughtered by lions, and that then you'd have that affection for one another.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and how sad you know that we would need that to unify us.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: It's like we have the blessing of a free country and the ability to connect because of technology and different things, and that's why I love it when I hear of churches that are doing combined outreaches in a certain city.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: You know again, we're not talking about now.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: You're including the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics and no, you're including those that adhere to the true gospel and sound biblical teaching.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: And how much can be accomplished for the kingdom.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: It just takes that humility.
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: I have a real blessing be accomplished for the kingdom.
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: It just takes that humility.
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: I have a real blessing Every Saturday I get a Huntington Beach peer to share the gospel and we meet literally dozens of Christians that love the ministry.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: But I never know their denomination and I don't need to yeah, amen, wonderful, I love that.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Ray.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: All right, wonderful, we're going to have a fight after this.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: Friends, we'll try to record it for you.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: All right, friends, don't forget all the good stuff we talked about.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: Remember the hundred bill tract wallet?
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: You got to get this, ray, we're going to run out again.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: You know we are.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we got more coming on Friday.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Okay, get them in.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: And don't forget the Living Waters mug, from which Oscar just took a chug, and the evidence Bible that's liable to bring revival, all at livingwaterscom Podcast.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: At livingwaterscom, with all your thoughts.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: You're keeping us at the top, guys, not for our sakes, but for God's glory and to impact people.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: So keep sharing and keep following.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us, friends.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast, where we have no idea what we're doing, what you're doing, what I'm doing, what are you doing?
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: You don't know.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: What are you doing?
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: I'm not division, that's unity.