Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Ivan Milat: The Missing Children, The Kings Cross Connection

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Ivan Milat: The Missing Children, The Kings Cross Connection · Real Crime with Adam Shand

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Speaker 1: A Poche Production.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam Shand.
0:17
Speaker 3: Ivan Malat is the most notorious serial killer in Australian
0:21
Speaker 3: criminal history. His name is forever associated with the horrific
0:25
Speaker 3: murders of seven young backpackers whose bodies were discovered in
0:29
Speaker 3: the Belangelo State Forest. But what if the story we
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Speaker 3: know is only part of the story? What if Malat's
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Speaker 3: criminal activities extended far beyond Belangelo, into the dark underworld
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Speaker 3: of Sydney's King's Cross, where vulnerable young people lived on
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Speaker 3: the streets, powerful men operated behind closed doors, and some
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Speaker 3: kids simply disappeared? And could the truth about those years
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Speaker 3: have been concealed for decades? These are some of the
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Speaker 3: questions being explored in a new investigative podcast by journalist
1:02
Speaker 3: Camille Bianchi, Back to the Wall. I've listened to the
1:05
Speaker 3: first episode. This one is a cracker. Do not miss
1:09
Speaker 3: this one. Her investigation takes us back to the wild
1:12
Speaker 3: and dangerous days of King's Cross, to a place known
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Speaker 3: simply as the Wall, where street kids gathered, where predators hunted,
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Speaker 3: and some of those who witnessed what happened have carried
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Speaker 3: their secrets for decades, or to the grave. As a
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Speaker 3: New South Wales parliamentary inquiry examines allegations surrounding Malat and
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Speaker 3: his movements before his arrest, Camille has been speaking to
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Speaker 3: people whose voices have been missing from the official history.
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Speaker 2: It's a story about power.
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Speaker 3: Exploitation, missing children and the possibility that some terrible crimes
1:47
Speaker 3: were never properly investigated. But it's also a story about memory,
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Speaker 3: credibility and and the difficulty of separating fact from rumour
1:56
Speaker 3: after so many years. History, they say, is written by
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Speaker 3: the winners. But what happens when the people who lost
2:03
Speaker 3: but survived finally get to tell their side? Camille joins
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Speaker 3: me now to discuss her investigation, the people she's encountered,
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Speaker 3: and the questions that still demand answers. Camille, welcome to
2:15
Speaker 3: Real Crime.
2:16
Speaker 1: Thanks, Adam. Good to be here.
2:18
Speaker 2: Fabulous job. This needed to be done for so long.
2:22
Speaker 3: And to speak to the people, generally whose voices, if
2:26
Speaker 3: they're listened to, they're not regarded with any credibility. We
2:29
Speaker 3: spoke a few weeks ago as you were putting the
2:31
Speaker 3: final touches to your series about how to ring fence
2:35
Speaker 3: this story to make it cogent, make it make sense.
2:39
Speaker 2: You've done a fantastic job and I'm really proud of you.
2:42
Speaker 1: Well, that's so nice. It's funny.
2:44
Speaker 4: You say I'm putting the finishing touches. I actually haven't yet.
2:47
Speaker 4: I'm still working out how to land the plane for
2:49
Speaker 4: the final episode because I I mean, this is the
2:52
Speaker 4: beauty of podcasts is you don't know what the public
2:55
Speaker 4: reaction will be. And even in the last few days,
2:58
Speaker 4: I've had people I've interviewed, you know, talk about some
3:02
Speaker 4: of the things they heard in the pod when I
3:04
Speaker 4: kind of offered it to them to listen to and
3:06
Speaker 4: more information coming more, you know, it's such a big story.
3:10
Speaker 4: And I think, yeah, I hope I've done an okay
3:12
Speaker 4: job trying to make something very complicated and big, sort
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Speaker 4: of digestible.
3:18
Speaker 1: A lot happened, Adam.
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Speaker 2: Well, it did.
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Speaker 3: And I grew up in the eastern suburbs not far
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Speaker 3: from King's Cross back in those years. And we would
3:24
Speaker 3: go up there and you would see the street life,
3:27
Speaker 3: lots of kids, lots of broken people, drug users, prostitutes, bikies,
3:33
Speaker 3: the works, so much was going on there. But also
3:36
Speaker 3: amongst that crowd was some of the rich and powerful
3:39
Speaker 3: of our city. And I suspect you don't know what
3:43
Speaker 3: you don't know. And I would imagine there'll be all
3:46
Speaker 3: kinds of people coming forward now to help you land
3:49
Speaker 3: that plane because it's been circling for a long time.
3:53
Speaker 3: What was your aim at the beginning?
3:55
Speaker 1: What's weird?
3:56
Speaker 4: So yeah, a couple of things. So the aim at
3:58
Speaker 4: the beginning wasn't one. So anyone who's worked with me
4:01
Speaker 4: will be, is very patient or very frustrated because I
4:05
Speaker 4: take a long time and I never know what I'm
4:06
Speaker 4: going to do.
4:07
Speaker 1: And I've kind of fallen into leaning on not.
4:11
Speaker 4: Over-promising and I under-promise Because in this case, it was
4:15
Speaker 4: a really lovely small company called Podshape that has commissioned this.
4:18
Speaker 4: But I came to them a year and a half in.
4:20
Speaker 4: So I worked on this for two years. Because you
4:22
Speaker 4: don't know what it's going to be. Because the whole
4:24
Speaker 4: kind of starting point was I worked with a really
4:27
Speaker 4: nice guy, a friend of mine, not on the same podcast.
4:30
Speaker 4: I was doing something corporate. And he tapped me on
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Speaker 4: the shoulder and said, have you seen this New South
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Speaker 4: Wales MP? He's talking about a.
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Speaker 1: Serial killer in Byron Bay. You love true crime. You're
4:38
Speaker 1: not doing anything. You seem like, you know, got a
4:39
Speaker 1: bit of time up your sleeve. And I did. And
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Speaker 1: I was like... I was like, oh, okay.
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Speaker 4: And then I met with this is Jeremy Buckingham. And
4:46
Speaker 4: I didn't ultimately kind of go down that track. This
4:49
Speaker 4: was in October, 2024. And I don't know if you remember,
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Speaker 4: I'm not on social media, but my friends were, and
4:54
Speaker 4: they were sort of saying hashtag Byron Bay serial killer.
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Speaker 1: And that became a big thing.
4:58
Speaker 4: And then I met with Buckingham and he was talking
5:00
Speaker 4: about why he suspected that there'd been these, and certainly criminologists,
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Speaker 4: not just him and his constituents had been coming to
5:06
Speaker 4: him saying, why are there so many unsolved murders?
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Speaker 1: There must've been serial killers that were never sort of caught.
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Speaker 4: And then he mentioned just a bunch of Sydney sort
5:14
Speaker 4: of history and a bunch of things he thought were
5:17
Speaker 4: relevant that I had no idea about because I either
5:19
Speaker 4: wasn't born and I didn't grow up in Sydney.
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Speaker 1: And I thought, who are all these characters? What is
5:24
Speaker 1: all this? And then seriously, a year later of research,
5:28
Speaker 1: I kind of popped up again.
5:30
Speaker 4: And then some colleagues of mine in various newsrooms very
5:34
Speaker 4: generously shared some of the details of some King's Cross
5:37
Speaker 4: former street kids. And then from there, I just listened.
5:41
Speaker 4: And then the story, I didn't know what it was
5:43
Speaker 4: until about six months ago. And it just got bigger
5:45
Speaker 4: and bigger and bigger.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're kind of doing the work that my generation
5:49
Speaker 3: of journalists should have done. We weren't encouraged to talk
5:53
Speaker 3: to street kids other than to judge them about their
5:56
Speaker 3: drug use and their profligacy and so forth. But you've
5:59
Speaker 3: taken that time. Was it difficult to get their trust
6:03
Speaker 3: to tell their stories?
6:05
Speaker 1: No.
6:05
Speaker 4: And I mean, to be really honest, the big overwhelming
6:07
Speaker 4: thing I found is your generation of journos and just
6:10
Speaker 4: prior to you were fucking phenomenal. Like I couldn't have
6:14
Speaker 4: done any of this without the work that had been
6:15
Speaker 4: done before. And some of the journos indeed are still
6:17
Speaker 4: working like Kate McClymont. But I mean, there was, you know,
6:21
Speaker 4: helped along by various royal commissions that brought some of
6:24
Speaker 4: this stuff out. But certainly with the network pedophilia, which
6:26
Speaker 4: is a real sort of stream of this series, again,
6:29
Speaker 4: by accident, it just became something like, you know, it
6:31
Speaker 4: became the story when it wasn't necessarily going to be.
6:35
Speaker 4: So many journos talked to so many people and did,
6:37
Speaker 4: I would argue, the hard work that now almost everyone
6:41
Speaker 4: I'm talking about is dead or at the very least,
6:44
Speaker 4: you know, convicted or whatever. And Brett Martin, I'm thinking about.
6:48
Speaker 4: So he was Illawarra Mercury who uncovered Philip Bell, Frank Arkell,
6:52
Speaker 4: that whole kind of group of predators. Like I can't
6:56
Speaker 4: compare what I've done.
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Speaker 1: Now with some of that work.
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Speaker 4: But it's just very satisfying to kind of look back
7:02
Speaker 4: with a broad lens, which I've got the luxury of doing,
7:04
Speaker 4: and say, okay, well, let's say we know now there
7:09
Speaker 4: was widespread corruption in the 80s. We know there was
7:12
Speaker 4: a ton of, you know, drug trafficking and corruption, et cetera,
7:16
Speaker 4: through the 70s into the 80s, you know, and all
7:18
Speaker 4: these other factors.
7:19
Speaker 1: What were the implications?
7:20
Speaker 4: Because if you're talking about people we now know were
7:23
Speaker 4: later convicted or found to have offended against kids or
7:26
Speaker 4: done drugs or whatever, they, some of them were judges,
7:30
Speaker 4: high ranking cops, Roger Rogerson comes to mind. It feels
7:33
Speaker 4: like we know all those stories, but no one's kind
7:35
Speaker 4: of gone back and gone, well, what about their work? Like,
7:39
Speaker 4: what about the people who knew about them at the time?
7:41
Speaker 4: Like if you're going back 20 years before they were caught,
7:45
Speaker 4: a lot of these people, and a lot of them were,
7:46
Speaker 4: is anyone asking, well, they did this murder investigation, they
7:50
Speaker 4: did that missing persons case, that judge oversaw this bizarre judgment.
7:54
Speaker 4: We are to understand that a lot of these, you know,
7:56
Speaker 4: closed cases of a lot of missing sex workers and
7:59
Speaker 4: murdered sex workers particularly that I've been looking at, they're
8:03
Speaker 4: not on any lists of unsolved cases or missing persons
8:06
Speaker 4: cases because they were supposedly dealt with appropriately. But you
8:09
Speaker 4: look at the names and you go, how? How is
8:12
Speaker 4: it not just a sort of an obvious question in
8:14
Speaker 4: our minds that, you know, at the very least, the
8:17
Speaker 4: potential for corruption and the potential for the mishandling of
8:20
Speaker 4: these prosecutions is so big that it merits the question.
8:24
Speaker 4: You know, I can't go back in time and prove
8:26
Speaker 4: what a bunch of people are telling me, but I
8:29
Speaker 4: vehemently believe there is a justification in asking the question now.
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Speaker 2: Oh, for sure.
8:34
Speaker 3: And people don't realise that the corruption in New South
8:38
Speaker 3: Wales began right at the top in that era. The
8:42
Speaker 3: most corrupt premier of New South Wales was never Rand.
8:46
Speaker 3: People don't realise that. The amount of malfeasance, corruption, patronage
8:51
Speaker 3: that went on. People talk about Bob Askin, you know,
8:54
Speaker 3: the liberal premier of the 60s. But Rand Nifty was
8:57
Speaker 3: the champion of corruption. And apologies to any of his
9:00
Speaker 3: relatives still living, but it's true. And my family had
9:03
Speaker 3: a long connection with Rand. He was my grandfather who
9:06
Speaker 3: was a barrister's junior. And so we knew that family
9:09
Speaker 3: and also know a lot of crooks who knew him
9:11
Speaker 3: as well. So you're starting to delve into the fabric
9:16
Speaker 3: of what took place below the governance level. And you're
9:21
Speaker 3: talking about people that were exploiting young people in the
9:25
Speaker 3: cross for their own sexual pleasure. And so there was
9:30
Speaker 3: a lot of shame. There was a lot of secrecy.
9:33
Speaker 3: And a lot of people just looked at these kids
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Speaker 3: and said, They're trash. There was a value judgment placed
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Speaker 3: on them and their lives. So that's what you're, this
9:44
Speaker 3: is the kind of old heap that you're digging into.
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Speaker 3: Does it amaze you as a younger person that people
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Speaker 3: were so expendable in those years?
9:55
Speaker 4: No, because a lot of what the work I've come
9:57
Speaker 4: from has been really sadly looking at matters in Tassie
10:00
Speaker 4: that were just identikit but were happening a lot later
10:03
Speaker 4: and more recently.
10:04
Speaker 1: So yeah.
10:05
Speaker 4: I had this sort of naive idea in my head
10:07
Speaker 4: that it was, you know, it's a Tasmanian problem or
10:09
Speaker 4: it's a, you know, insert place problem. But Australia, I've
10:13
Speaker 4: got to say, I mean, it just seems to have
10:16
Speaker 4: gone from state to state decade after decade. And then
10:19
Speaker 4: New South Wales was just It's just the care homes really,
10:24
Speaker 4: and I know a lot of work has been done
10:25
Speaker 4: by police, actually outstanding work, I've got to say, in
10:29
Speaker 4: more recent years to convict a ton of the people
10:32
Speaker 4: running the boys' homes. But what really makes me angry
10:36
Speaker 4: is the idea that not only were so many survivors
10:40
Speaker 4: discredited or victims who did not survive, but this idea
10:44
Speaker 4: that there could feasibly have been a political class that
10:47
Speaker 4: didn't know.
10:48
Speaker 1: It's that they didn't care. It's that these were, you know.
10:51
Speaker 4: These kids were treated like shit and were just dumped
10:55
Speaker 4: out onto the street again, picked up by the same people.
10:57
Speaker 4: Like the weirdest kind of thing to identify is this,
11:03
Speaker 4: what was very clearly, and I sound like conspiratorial and
11:06
Speaker 4: it isn't because there is so much evidence for it.
11:08
Speaker 4: There was an actual system where, you know, you had really,
11:12
Speaker 4: I mean, politicians, let's talk about them like Tony Bev
11:14
Speaker 4: and Frank Arkell as just two examples of got witnesses
11:17
Speaker 4: who remember them coming to take kids out of homes
11:20
Speaker 4: and certainly Frank Arkell's biographer, Eric Eklund, was talking about
11:22
Speaker 4: this too. They would come to their mates who ran
11:26
Speaker 4: certain care homes. They'd say, I want that boy or whatever,
11:28
Speaker 4: take them out, put them back, get the same kid
11:31
Speaker 4: again from a different institution. And if you go through
11:34
Speaker 4: some of the documents in state archives through the Wood
11:36
Speaker 4: Royal Commission, there's kind of this idea that a lot
11:39
Speaker 4: of stuff isn't available.
11:40
Speaker 1: It's actually available.
11:41
Speaker 4: It's not necessarily... able to be published in terms of names,
11:46
Speaker 4: if there's code names. But I do want to debunk
11:48
Speaker 4: that conspiracy theory a little bit, is that there is
11:50
Speaker 4: actually a lot of information available from a lot of
11:53
Speaker 4: these royal commissions that you can get if you get
11:54
Speaker 4: there in person, if you have a bit of help.
11:57
Speaker 4: And you don't have to be a journalist, you can
11:58
Speaker 4: just go and get it. But one of the more
12:00
Speaker 4: disturbing things I found was this social worker was saying
12:02
Speaker 4: that he had rich and powerful people contacting him in
12:06
Speaker 4: quote unquote desperation, trying to access the state wards. And
12:10
Speaker 4: there was a file of state wards and the B
12:12
Speaker 4: file were the boy's.
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Speaker 1: They were earmarked and followed.
12:15
Speaker 4: And then the guys that I'm talking to who have
12:17
Speaker 4: stories of being abused at six different places, people call
12:20
Speaker 4: them fantasists or say that they're on the take and
12:23
Speaker 4: trying to get money from whatever institution.
12:25
Speaker 1: No. Like you only have.
12:26
Speaker 4: To look at how many of these men running some
12:29
Speaker 4: of these juvenile homes in New South Wales were convicted later.
12:32
Speaker 1: It's a crazy number.
12:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
12:34
Speaker 1: But that's kind of, yeah, that's the tragedy.
12:37
Speaker 3: Very few are brought to justice. You mentioned Frank Arkell.
12:40
Speaker 3: I mean, he was absolutely notorious, the former mayor of Wollongong.
12:44
Speaker 3: He ended up being murdered in 1998, I think, by
12:46
Speaker 3: a horrible, violent murder because I think the murderer decided
12:51
Speaker 3: to take justice in his own hand because Arkell was
12:55
Speaker 3: sort of untouchable. I met Arkell and even someone like
12:58
Speaker 3: Philip Bell, who was notorious. I mean, I remember going
13:02
Speaker 3: to his house at Whale Beach and And there was
13:05
Speaker 3: a bunch of young private school boys there. He was
13:07
Speaker 3: abusing one of them. And we stayed there a few
13:10
Speaker 3: days and witnessed. And this guy was doing it in
13:13
Speaker 3: plain sight, open, you know, doing it in plain sight.
13:16
Speaker 3: And people would say, oh, he's just a bit odd,
13:18
Speaker 3: just a bit odd. And there was even this sort
13:20
Speaker 3: of defense back then.
13:21
Speaker 2: People would say, well, I'm a pedophile. I love children.
13:25
Speaker 4: What?
13:26
Speaker 2: You're a filthy pervert. You know, they got away with it.
13:28
Speaker 3: So what I'm fascinated with, though, is this network of
13:32
Speaker 3: powerful people exploiting children and the connection to Ivan Milat.
13:37
Speaker 2: Where does that come in?
13:38
Speaker 1: It's a bit roundabout. I mean, the first thing I
13:40
Speaker 1: will say, and I guess it's a spoiler, but, I mean,
13:43
Speaker 1: who cares? It is the... You'll get that in it.
13:46
Speaker 1: One is it's not Ivan Milat.
13:47
Speaker 4: The story, Ivan Milat represents a generation of serial killers
13:52
Speaker 4: and I'm not the first to say this and I
13:53
Speaker 4: won't be the last, there is a cohort of these
13:56
Speaker 4: guys that were, I think even, I can't remember which
13:58
Speaker 4: podcast covered this recently, but they came through certain specific boys' homes,
14:02
Speaker 4: certainly in New South Wales, and they had identical kind
14:05
Speaker 4: of experiences. And, you know, Les Murphy, the killer of,
14:09
Speaker 4: you know, beautiful Anita Colby in 86, comes to mind
14:11
Speaker 4: very much.
14:12
Speaker 1: I mean, he was younger than Millard. But, you know,
14:14
Speaker 1: all to say.
14:17
Speaker 4: The kind of this cohort, Leslie Camilleri and, and, and,
14:20
Speaker 4: you start to see a very disturbing pattern coming out
14:24
Speaker 4: of this. And that's one sort of facet of it.
14:26
Speaker 4: And then a little bit, I guess, more directly with Millard,
14:29
Speaker 4: it was more looking at his legal representative. So longtime
14:33
Speaker 4: family lawyer, John Marsden. And I mean, to be clear,
14:36
Speaker 4: like everybody in the system needs defense and that's appropriate.
14:40
Speaker 4: But there are a lot of questions around Court cases
14:45
Speaker 4: being thrown and just weird.
14:48
Speaker 1: Anomalies in Malat.
14:50
Speaker 4: You know, famously, I think it was Les Kennedy first
14:52
Speaker 4: identified this with Mark Whitaker in their book.
14:54
Speaker 1: He went AWOL for.
14:55
Speaker 4: Like three years while he, you know, disappeared from an
14:59
Speaker 4: armed robbery trial and then sort of, you know, had
15:03
Speaker 4: raped someone as well or allegedly was acquitted of that.
15:07
Speaker 4: comes back a few years later when police sort of
15:09
Speaker 4: randomly find him at his mother's bedside.
15:11
Speaker 1: But the whole thing, none of it adds up.
15:13
Speaker 4: I cannot go into that. But my biggest belief that
15:16
Speaker 4: he wouldn't have been, you know, high on the wanted list.
15:19
Speaker 4: But it was kind of like, oh, yeah, he'll come
15:21
Speaker 4: back if he comes back. And then eventually he gets
15:23
Speaker 4: off this armed robbery. He gets off this rape charge.
15:28
Speaker 4: And the circumstances in both instances, it's just odd. And
15:33
Speaker 4: certainly I went through the autobiography of John Marsden later
15:36
Speaker 4: and his account of it all doesn't add up to
15:39
Speaker 4: what the court documents from the time describe. And then
15:44
Speaker 4: you throw in the fact that there's widespread reporting at
15:48
Speaker 4: the time and a Narcotics Bureau police officer had written
15:53
Speaker 4: a book actually in 1979 describing how court cases were
15:56
Speaker 4: being thrown and the relationship between defence lawyers and the police.
16:01
Speaker 1: And then that combined with, you know.
16:04
Speaker 4: A whole bunch of people I've spoken with and you think, well,
16:06
Speaker 4: I hate to open a can of worms, but if
16:10
Speaker 4: we know, like even at the time you're talking the
16:12
Speaker 4: late 70s, these allegations were all out about cases in
16:16
Speaker 4: Sydney in general. I'm like, has anyone kind of gone
16:20
Speaker 4: back and looked at any of this stuff?
16:22
Speaker 1: Because how do we trust any of it?
16:23
Speaker 4: Well, that's right.
16:24
Speaker 3: I mean, you talk about John Marsden and you've referenced
16:29
Speaker 3: him as being up in these clubs in the cross
16:33
Speaker 3: where child exploitation was taking place.
16:36
Speaker 4: And.
16:36
Speaker 3: We all knew that Marsden was up to something. Some
16:41
Speaker 3: of us knew more than others. But he would sue
16:43
Speaker 3: the ass off anybody who raised it in any form.
16:48
Speaker 3: So he had a bit of a reign of terror
16:49
Speaker 3: going on. And he also had, typical of these guys,
16:52
Speaker 3: he had good relations with some journalists and was able
16:56
Speaker 3: to forestall, you know, the final reveal of all this.
17:01
Speaker 3: And even great journalists like the late Les Kennedys I think,
17:04
Speaker 3: would have trembled at the thought of taking on Marsden
17:08
Speaker 3: unless you hit him dead to rights, right in the heart,
17:11
Speaker 3: because he would come back at your heart.
17:13
Speaker 2: And all these guys were well connected.
17:16
Speaker 3: So I think you're right to ask these questions about
17:19
Speaker 3: connections between people. And I do feel like you're going
17:22
Speaker 3: to have more people coming out. and telling you things
17:25
Speaker 3: that will extend the life of this podcast series. And
17:29
Speaker 3: you talk about Malat, he was active in the Surrey Hills,
17:31
Speaker 3: Darlinghurst era at that time, area at that time. And
17:36
Speaker 3: it does beg a belief that his kill list was
17:39
Speaker 3: only seven and took place at a specific time. And
17:43
Speaker 3: there's enough evidence missing people, enough unsolved murders to suggest
17:47
Speaker 3: that we shouldn't.
17:48
Speaker 2: That's what Jeremy Buckingham's doing.
17:50
Speaker 3: And I do think sometimes that Jeremy's going too far
17:53
Speaker 3: and ascribing too much to Malat. But as you say,
17:58
Speaker 3: there are other people, people like Neville Tween, who was
18:02
Speaker 3: the killer of Trudy Adams.
18:03
Speaker 2: He was never brought to justice on that matter. He's
18:06
Speaker 2: dead now. And so I feel like more is going
18:09
Speaker 2: to come out.
18:10
Speaker 4: Well, Christopher Wilde is another one. And I didn't even
18:14
Speaker 4: look specifically at Wilde because so many people have done
18:16
Speaker 4: excellent work on him. He's the main suspect for the
18:19
Speaker 4: Wanda Beach murders, killed a bunch of people in the US.
18:21
Speaker 4: He was allowed to leave the country in 1969 as
18:24
Speaker 4: a known rapist. And again, in 1982, on a mysterious
18:30
Speaker 4: bail order that the police were vehemently against, and he
18:34
Speaker 4: was again, the suspect already by then known as a
18:37
Speaker 4: suspect in, in the killing of, of, um, Christine Sharick
18:40
Speaker 4: and Mariana Schmidt so many years before, but also was,
18:42
Speaker 4: was considered by a police officer who spoke publicly recently
18:46
Speaker 4: and said he was a known, very real danger to
18:49
Speaker 4: the public.
18:50
Speaker 1: He was allowed to just go like this.
18:52
Speaker 4: And, um, he was living in King's cross and, you know,
18:54
Speaker 4: there's just all this, I, the parallels in so many
18:58
Speaker 4: of these cases.
18:59
Speaker 1: And that's why I'm, I'm kind of keep saying it is,
19:01
Speaker 1: it's not.
19:01
Speaker 4: Just Malak, but, The Millard case itself, like what was
19:04
Speaker 4: really staggering to me is I almost went into this
19:07
Speaker 4: and certainly with following what Buckingham's doing, just thinking, I
19:11
Speaker 4: have to admit, I kind of eye rolled a little
19:13
Speaker 4: at the idea of looking again at Ivor Millard is
19:15
Speaker 4: the most covered kind of serial killer in our history,
19:18
Speaker 4: I would argue. And astoundingly, there are things we don't
19:21
Speaker 4: know and there are things that don't make sense. And
19:23
Speaker 4: now I'm thinking, well, there are questions to answer. Well,
19:27
Speaker 4: there are.
19:27
Speaker 3: And I think you find yourself in the strange position
19:30
Speaker 3: of looking to exonerate Malat where the evidence is not strong.
19:35
Speaker 3: Because as soon as you lumber him with everything, you
19:38
Speaker 3: potentially allow other people who may still be living to
19:41
Speaker 3: go free. And I think that's a really, really important
19:43
Speaker 3: piece of work. And I applaud what Jeremy's doing. But
19:47
Speaker 3: I do think that we've got to draw lines. We've
19:49
Speaker 3: got to look at it. And I think there's enough,
19:51
Speaker 3: one of the criticisms of that parliamentary inquiry has gone
19:55
Speaker 3: the whole of the cold case squad, most of New
19:57
Speaker 3: South Wales police, following up on these conspiracy theories at times.
20:01
Speaker 2: That's what people have called them.
20:03
Speaker 3: And so the proper investigations into these cold cases can't
20:07
Speaker 3: be done. I don't fully agree with that, but you
20:10
Speaker 3: could level that criticism down. How much weight would you
20:15
Speaker 3: place on more victims for Malat at this stage in
20:19
Speaker 3: your investigation?
20:20
Speaker 4: Again, like that wasn't even really my focus, but I
20:23
Speaker 4: just go to the experts like Tim Watson-Monroe, Zant Malat,
20:26
Speaker 4: who else? Clive Small when he was alive. I would
20:28
Speaker 4: say without doubt there are more. We already know about
20:31
Speaker 4: Peter Letcher. You know, the just biggest belief, like you
20:35
Speaker 4: have him in The Sins of the Brother, that book
20:37
Speaker 4: talking about having killed before by 1970.
20:41
Speaker 1: You know, Karen Rowland's family very much believe, and.
20:43
Speaker 4: Detectives involved with that case, believe that he was responsible
20:48
Speaker 4: for her killing. And, I mean, it's very obvious. But,
20:52
Speaker 4: I mean, the weirdest thing, again, like, it's not a
20:54
Speaker 4: new story. Like, the whole Malak could have been responsible
20:56
Speaker 4: for many more. How many podcasts have we seen that
20:59
Speaker 4: have come up about that? I think, again, the really
21:02
Speaker 4: obvious question, though, is... Well, like, okay. We're all just
21:06
Speaker 4: holding hands and saying, okay, you could be responsible for
21:09
Speaker 4: many more. That just seems such a great disservice to
21:12
Speaker 4: the families who don't know.
21:12
Speaker 2: Well, you've got to do the work.
21:13
Speaker 3: And I think what you're doing that other podcasts haven't
21:16
Speaker 3: done is go to speak.
21:18
Speaker 2: To these original sources.
21:19
Speaker 3: It's too easy to play Detective Google and just repeat endlessly.
21:24
Speaker 3: You'll always get an audience doing that. But you've taken
21:26
Speaker 3: a much harder road. And you're talking to people who
21:29
Speaker 3: traditionally people haven't listened to. But you've also heard, which
21:33
Speaker 3: I think is a feature of your work, is the
21:35
Speaker 3: empathy you show for people, that's why they're talking to you.
21:39
Speaker 3: And they're sharing things that would otherwise be a source
21:42
Speaker 3: of shame. What are the backgrounds of the people you're
21:44
Speaker 3: speaking to? Why were they at the wall? Why were
21:46
Speaker 3: they at King's Cross?
21:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, again, the whole kind of exercise has been
21:50
Speaker 4: about pattern building. And the big pattern, there's a whole
21:52
Speaker 4: kind of episode on it, is this idea.
21:56
Speaker 1: Of kids who are uncontrollable.
21:58
Speaker 4: And the very first kid you hear about, a boy
22:00
Speaker 4: who was at the King's Cross Club, had a very
22:03
Speaker 4: troubling childhood. I didn't even need to hear about the
22:06
Speaker 4: depths of some of what had happened, just enough to
22:09
Speaker 4: say he was 11 when he left home.
22:11
Speaker 1: That's enough, right? You think of an 11-year-old.
22:14
Speaker 4: He was hitchhiking and he said the price of a
22:18
Speaker 4: lift was he knew he could be killed or raped.
22:22
Speaker 4: And that's what he did to get away. And he
22:25
Speaker 4: ended up in Kings Cross, and then he worked out
22:28
Speaker 4: he needed money. And then, you know, the kids all
22:30
Speaker 4: kind of ended up siphoned into Costello's, which was the
22:33
Speaker 4: boy brothel of the day.
22:34
Speaker 2: Or The Wall.
22:36
Speaker 1: The Wall seems to have been when they were slightly older. But,
22:40
Speaker 1: you know, there were.
22:40
Speaker 4: Different kind of scenes through the 60s, 70s, 80s, because
22:44
Speaker 4: it happened for a long, long time. And then a
22:46
Speaker 4: lot of the kids I've spoken with, so depending on
22:48
Speaker 4: their ages and their different stories, most went through institutions.
22:52
Speaker 4: So their parents couldn't handle them. Their parents were the addicts.
22:56
Speaker 4: or whatever, or they were orphaned, they were, you know,
22:58
Speaker 4: weren't in the picture, couple were abandoned. A lot, weirdly,
23:01
Speaker 4: there was a thread of a number who were later
23:03
Speaker 4: diagnosed as neurodivergent and they were so-called uncontrollable, put in
23:08
Speaker 4: juvenile detention and spat back out onto King's Cross streets,
23:12
Speaker 4: had to look after themselves. A lot of them were
23:14
Speaker 4: injected forcibly with heroin or given it by their abusers to,
23:18
Speaker 4: you know, so they would shut up. And then that,
23:20
Speaker 4: of course, created a dependency and then they had to
23:22
Speaker 4: work to sell their bodies. That's a really common one.
23:25
Speaker 4: And depending on whether it's the girls or the boys,
23:27
Speaker 4: they were slightly sort of different features.
23:30
Speaker 1: And yeah, the.
23:31
Speaker 4: Ones who went through the institutions, I've got to say,
23:34
Speaker 4: what they describe as happening there and how they describe
23:36
Speaker 4: it and how they react when I ask them about it,
23:39
Speaker 4: just the institutions in particular.
23:41
Speaker 1: Oh, it's heartbreaking.
23:44
Speaker 4: And this is the thing, like you mentioned Marston, and
23:46
Speaker 4: I'm sure I'll get my ass kicked for even bringing
23:48
Speaker 4: this up when he can't defend himself. He always vehemently
23:50
Speaker 4: denied any claims against him and successfully sued people. like
23:54
Speaker 4: channel seven, but the people I've spoken with deliberately have
23:57
Speaker 4: never pursued any kind of legal action, never kind of
23:59
Speaker 4: participated because some of them told me they feel like
24:02
Speaker 4: they're not entitled to because they were paid for it.
24:05
Speaker 1: They said, well, we were working. And I'm like, yeah,
24:06
Speaker 1: but you're 13, you can't work.
24:08
Speaker 4: Like anyway, but so there's this disconnect and they don't
24:11
Speaker 4: even feel like they were abused. A couple of them
24:13
Speaker 4: that I've spoken with, they're like, oh no, I wanted
24:15
Speaker 4: the money.
24:16
Speaker 1: I wanted, you know, that was how I survived. And
24:18
Speaker 1: it's that almost cognitive dissonance.
24:20
Speaker 4: There's they're not necessarily, they don't necessarily feel the same
24:24
Speaker 4: way about their time in institutions as they do on
24:26
Speaker 4: the street. So you've also got to honour that as well.
24:29
Speaker 4: Like I can, you know, I know what is a
24:32
Speaker 4: crime and I know what we think, but not all
24:35
Speaker 4: of these victim survivors see themselves in the same way
24:39
Speaker 4: as victims per se.
24:40
Speaker 3: Very interesting point you raise because you're a journalist of
24:45
Speaker 3: today's era, looking back at an earlier era, Do you
24:48
Speaker 3: find yourself having to check yourself at times to say, well,
24:51
Speaker 3: am I bringing today's sensibility back to an earlier time
24:54
Speaker 3: that wasn't necessarily as persuasive?
24:56
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm pretty vehement on hating pedophiles, so
25:00
Speaker 1: not really. But, like, it was wrong then, it's wrong now.
25:02
Speaker 4: But the one thing I will say with that is
25:04
Speaker 4: a yes to answer your question.
25:05
Speaker 1: The big thing that I had to check myself as
25:07
Speaker 1: a straight.
25:08
Speaker 4: Woman is be really, really conscious that there were a
25:12
Speaker 4: number of people, and Marcin's a good example, who vilified
25:15
Speaker 4: him for being gay and wanted to see him brought
25:17
Speaker 4: down and certainly parliamentary colleagues were appalling to him and
25:20
Speaker 4: to other figures.
25:21
Speaker 1: And so to be really disciplined.
25:23
Speaker 4: About sourcing, about, you know, where certain things came up
25:28
Speaker 4: that I just didn't even touch because it was motivated
25:30
Speaker 4: by what was not only horrific homophobia at the time,
25:34
Speaker 4: but it was actually illegal in New South Wales until 78.
25:36
Speaker 4: So you've got to be really conscious that for a
25:38
Speaker 4: number of these men, I would argue definitely, and I've
25:42
Speaker 4: encountered this in the stuff I looked at in Tassie,
25:44
Speaker 4: is The criminalisation of homosexuality is so dangerous. It was
25:50
Speaker 4: so dangerous because it automatically sent everybody underground and then
25:53
Speaker 4: it became, well, this is illegal.
25:55
Speaker 1: And then it's so muddy and awful. I think that
25:58
Speaker 1: was part of the.
25:58
Speaker 4: Difficulty in some of the cases against some of the
26:03
Speaker 4: higher profile men who were potentially in the closet or
26:06
Speaker 4: who were not in the closet, but absolutely were right
26:10
Speaker 4: in saying they were vilified. And with AIDS, you've then
26:13
Speaker 4: got that level of disgust and I think that it's
26:17
Speaker 4: so complex and unfortunately you've got to, yeah, you've just
26:20
Speaker 4: got to be so cognisant of that. And even policing,
26:23
Speaker 4: like some of the police were so homophobic. So that
26:25
Speaker 4: was the big kind of thing that I had to
26:27
Speaker 4: keep checking myself on.
26:28
Speaker 2: Fascinating, really.
26:29
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously that leads us right up to the
26:32
Speaker 3: murders around Bondi of gay men at Marks Park and
26:35
Speaker 3: so forth, which I've looked into deeply and most of
26:37
Speaker 3: those will never be solved. Homophobic police. homophobic attackers, a
26:42
Speaker 3: conspiracy of silence. As you speak to these young people
26:46
Speaker 3: or the former young people of the cross there, do
26:49
Speaker 3: you start to get a sense of the victims? Do
26:52
Speaker 3: they say to you, you should look at this one
26:55
Speaker 3: or that one? Are you starting to, because I think
26:57
Speaker 3: that's the way to drive it forward is to say, well,
26:59
Speaker 3: what happened to that person?
27:01
Speaker 2: Where are they today? Were they murdered?
27:05
Speaker 1: Oh, 100%.
27:06
Speaker 4: That's kind of, to me, the big takeaway from this
27:08
Speaker 4: series because so many of the other matters were dealt
27:11
Speaker 4: with in courts in some level and certainly happily with
27:14
Speaker 4: a lot of the sex offending, which is not always
27:16
Speaker 4: the case, as we know. But the biggest kind of
27:18
Speaker 4: question mark for me hangs around a couple of deaths
27:21
Speaker 4: that were treated as locked and loaded cases of misadventure,
27:26
Speaker 4: which is what they love to call it in the
27:27
Speaker 4: 70s and into the early 80s. A couple of cases,
27:30
Speaker 4: so I'm looking at the cases of three sex workers
27:34
Speaker 4: in King's Cross and One of them was found in
27:37
Speaker 4: the park, moved after death, injected with heroin.
27:41
Speaker 1: The coroner found she'd been injected by heroin, likely not her.
27:44
Speaker 4: She was found almost naked, again, moved after death, concealed
27:48
Speaker 4: in the Royal National Park south of Sydney.
27:50
Speaker 1: And they originally, detectives said, OK, this is a murder.
27:54
Speaker 4: And I even found an article from the 70s saying, oh,
27:56
Speaker 4: bodies keep turning up in the Royal National Park.
27:58
Speaker 1: And it was like, oh, God, you couldn't make this
27:59
Speaker 1: stuff up.
28:00
Speaker 4: But then they get her and then all of a
28:02
Speaker 4: sudden the case is being treated as murder. manslaughter and
28:06
Speaker 4: then sorry not manslaughter just misadventure just misadventure like oh
28:10
Speaker 4: well someone.
28:10
Speaker 1: Ejected who cares who that was no efforts to find them.
28:13
Speaker 4: And then you go back through the coronial inquest and
28:16
Speaker 4: you think well who was saying what and then you've
28:18
Speaker 4: got all these people that were accusing organized sort of
28:21
Speaker 4: crime organized crime element police whatever and the coroner said
28:25
Speaker 4: oh it was all just you know scurrilous claims lock
28:29
Speaker 4: all done nothing to see here and the family are
28:31
Speaker 4: kind of told that it's because of her heroin addiction
28:34
Speaker 4: and then It's awful because then the parents became members
28:37
Speaker 4: of this heroin advocacy group. They were well and truly
28:40
Speaker 4: shut up and they had no reason. I mean, this
28:43
Speaker 4: is just sort of conjecture because they're not alive now.
28:45
Speaker 4: But at the time, like they were very clearly kind
28:48
Speaker 4: of told, okay, you thought she was killed because, you know,
28:51
Speaker 4: one of her parents thought she was.
28:52
Speaker 1: And they're like, no, no, you're wrong. We know better.
28:55
Speaker 4: She was just, you know, on the wrong side of
28:56
Speaker 4: the tracks. But I just don't understand how that can be.
29:00
Speaker 1: Okay, locked and loaded. That's case closed. And it's like,
29:03
Speaker 1: She was moved after death and hidden and ejected by
29:05
Speaker 1: someone else.
29:06
Speaker 4: And that case is particularly interesting because I have kind
29:09
Speaker 4: of linked it to another more high profile one.
29:11
Speaker 1: And it's just, yeah, it's extraordinary. And this is, you know,
29:14
Speaker 1: 40 years ago.
29:15
Speaker 3: There just wasn't the same public outrage back then about
29:20
Speaker 3: the deaths of these people. There was a value judgment
29:22
Speaker 3: about people. Let's face it, they're expendable. And particularly around
29:26
Speaker 3: heroin hotshot deaths. I mean, that was a very accepted
29:29
Speaker 3: way of getting rid of problems back then. They're already
29:32
Speaker 3: heroin users. A misadventure heroin death looks the same as
29:35
Speaker 3: a hotshot death. And you wonder how many. So I think,
29:39
Speaker 3: let me foresee the future for you, Camille. You've been
29:42
Speaker 3: working on this for a long time because people are
29:44
Speaker 3: going to be coming forward. to you with more details.
29:46
Speaker 3: They're going to be ex-politicians. They're going to be ex-police officers.
29:50
Speaker 3: They're going to be the families of people who've been lost.
29:51
Speaker 3: They'll be looking for answers, but also to give you information.
29:55
Speaker 2: Are you ready? What's going to come?
29:57
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm kind of dreading it.
29:59
Speaker 4: Like, it's so funny you say that because I've not
30:02
Speaker 4: even decided on putting a series out so much of
30:04
Speaker 4: the last couple of years. Cause I, I just wondered
30:06
Speaker 4: what it was for and I had to be really
30:07
Speaker 4: sure there was a case for it. Um, you know,
30:09
Speaker 4: retraumatizing people, blah, blah. And also like, and I mean
30:13
Speaker 4: this sincerely, um, the family of perpetrators that I'm naming
30:17
Speaker 4: again after a long time, that's not, it's not nice
30:19
Speaker 4: for them.
30:20
Speaker 1: I do take that seriously, but I.
30:24
Speaker 4: Just think there are just, there's a generation of people
30:27
Speaker 4: who have never been believed. And I talked to some
30:30
Speaker 4: of them and I mean, the best feedback I've had
30:32
Speaker 4: just through sharing just ahead of release with one man
30:35
Speaker 4: was he said, my kids got to listen to this.
30:38
Speaker 4: And it explained a little bit about why I couldn't
30:40
Speaker 4: have been the dad I wanted to be. And the consequences,
30:45
Speaker 4: I mean, they're not historical.
30:47
Speaker 1: They're still playing out.
30:48
Speaker 4: And there's some really fucking sad stories that are a
30:52
Speaker 4: direct result of a lot of this stuff.
30:53
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I don't know if I'm ready.
30:55
Speaker 4: And I certainly, I don't have any more answers than
30:57
Speaker 4: I'm putting out or anything like that. And I don't
30:59
Speaker 4: want to extend myself beyond what I'm sort of ethically,
31:04
Speaker 4: you know, sort of capable of doing as a journalist.
31:06
Speaker 1: But, yeah, I hope I can help.
31:08
Speaker 4: But it would be great if more people came forward
31:10
Speaker 4: with information than questions.
31:11
Speaker 3: Well, you know, as these things go, you can make
31:14
Speaker 3: all the judgments and boundaries and rules you like, but
31:17
Speaker 3: the story is going to carry you forward.
31:19
Speaker 2: You're now immersed in it and the story will carry
31:21
Speaker 2: you forward.
31:21
Speaker 3: And I think whether it's to resolve outstanding murders or
31:27
Speaker 3: shining a light on the culture of you're also going
31:29
Speaker 3: to help people resolve individual stories just by giving them
31:33
Speaker 3: a voice.
31:34
Speaker 2: They've had no voice.
31:35
Speaker 3: So I'm excited and somewhat envious that you're doing this.
31:39
Speaker 3: It's something I should have done myself having grown up
31:41
Speaker 3: in that era. But I think bringing a lens to
31:44
Speaker 3: it is fantastic and I really wish you all the
31:45
Speaker 3: best with it.
31:46
Speaker 1: You can help me, Adam.
31:47
Speaker 2: Well, I will. I've done my best. I certainly will.
31:50
Speaker 2: I'll need help. Don't worry, I'll need help.
31:54
Speaker 3: You're also part of our growing team at Podshape and
31:56
Speaker 3: I think it's going to be some of the best
31:57
Speaker 3: work in Australian true crime is happening within pod shape.
32:00
Speaker 3: So you're part of the culture we're building. Have there
32:04
Speaker 3: been moments where you've said, oh, my God, this is
32:07
Speaker 3: too much.
32:08
Speaker 2: You've got a life, you know.
32:10
Speaker 3: You're delving into the archives, into the recesses of people,
32:14
Speaker 3: and it's very dark and difficult stuff. Are there moments
32:17
Speaker 3: where you've gone like, it's all too much?
32:20
Speaker 4: No, not subject matter wise, but more than a couple
32:22
Speaker 4: of ex-cops off the record have warned me. And I'm like, oh,
32:25
Speaker 4: I hate that. It makes me feel sick because I'm
32:27
Speaker 4: not a particularly brave person. But then I just think realistically.
32:30
Speaker 4: And then I think of, you know, Bob Bottom, you know,
32:33
Speaker 4: Brett Martin, a bunch of other journos that actually, you know,
32:36
Speaker 4: were looking at this stuff when people were in power,
32:41
Speaker 4: you know, and had a lot of influence. And I wouldn't,
32:46
Speaker 4: the subject matter is not a problem for me. It's
32:48
Speaker 4: more just yeah, I don't want to be in the
32:51
Speaker 4: business of taking stupid risks and certainly with the people
32:53
Speaker 4: around me or anything like that. But these are, to
32:56
Speaker 4: put into perspective, these are historic, largely historic matters of
33:00
Speaker 4: people who are, if not dead, then very old. So yeah, no,
33:04
Speaker 4: it's disquieting and I hate the whole, I can, a
33:07
Speaker 4: few people have warned me off, certainly other journos and
33:11
Speaker 4: a couple of ex-cops saying, oh, other people have tried
33:14
Speaker 4: to tell this story and you're going to fall afoul
33:16
Speaker 4: and your reputation's gone. And I just said, I was
33:20
Speaker 4: just saying to a friend the other day, I'm like,
33:22
Speaker 4: what's my reputation anyway?
33:24
Speaker 1: Like, what are we doing it for?
33:26
Speaker 4: Speaking truth to power is sometimes that feels a little cheesy,
33:29
Speaker 4: but it is the whole point. So if I get
33:34
Speaker 4: my ass kicked, so be it.
33:35
Speaker 3: And let me give you some advice that's not wholly consoling.
33:39
Speaker 3: The people who warn you or even threaten you are
33:43
Speaker 3: not the ones you should worry about.
33:44
Speaker 2: Yeah. The serious people do what they'll do, okay? But
33:52
Speaker 2: you're right. It is truth to power. And it's, you know,
33:55
Speaker 2: as I say, it's.
33:57
Speaker 3: The little people who have never been listened to. And
33:59
Speaker 3: that's what I think is exciting about this project and
34:01
Speaker 3: continue to do it. I found myself often on the
34:04
Speaker 3: other side of the line where we're supposed to dwell
34:07
Speaker 3: as journalists. And I've had the editor say to me,
34:09
Speaker 3: you know, you're getting too close. And my normal response is, well,
34:13
Speaker 3: you're too far away. immerse yourself in this seek advice,
34:17
Speaker 3: seek counsel, but keep going and take every call because
34:20
Speaker 3: you never know what's going to come. Camille, it's been
34:23
Speaker 3: fabulous talking to you and I look forward to talking
34:26
Speaker 3: to you again soon.
34:27
Speaker 2: When's the podcast out and how do people find it?
34:30
Speaker 1: So that's a great question.
34:31
Speaker 4: You can find it in all the places you find
34:33
Speaker 4: podcasts like Apple, Spotify, all that. And I believe Nova,
34:38
Speaker 4: but those are questions for my producer. And next week,
34:42
Speaker 4: I believe it's There's an episode coming out from behind
34:45
Speaker 4: the paywall, but some of them will be behind the
34:48
Speaker 4: paywall at first. There'll be a total of 14 episodes,
34:51
Speaker 4: so quite a long one. But yeah, that'll kind of
34:53
Speaker 4: come out week by week is my understanding for quite
34:56
Speaker 4: a few weeks because there's quite a few episodes.
34:58
Speaker 3: We will check with the hardest working producer in podcast,
35:00
Speaker 3: Jay Walkerton, who's also my producer, and we'll put those
35:03
Speaker 3: details in the show notes.
35:04
Speaker 2: Thanks for your time today, Camille.
35:06
Speaker 1: My pleasure.
35:08
Speaker 3: That's Camille Bianchi. Her podcast is Back to the Wall.
35:11
Speaker 3: Very interesting project. Very interesting indeed. There are so many
35:15
Speaker 3: unsolved murders and disappearances in New South Wales. I recall
35:18
Speaker 3: talking to the former head of the Air Task.
35:21
Speaker 2: Force, Clive Small. He used to say, there's at least
35:24
Speaker 2: one serial killer we.
35:25
Speaker 3: Don't know about operating between Wollongong and Newcastle and we've
35:29
Speaker 3: never got close to who that is, but he's out
35:32
Speaker 3: there and there are people who still know what happened
35:36
Speaker 3: and they're going to come forward. I'm pretty sure about this.
35:39
Speaker 3: It's not too late. Justice delayed is not justice denied.
35:43
Speaker 3: And I think the people Camille's talking to are just
35:46
Speaker 3: the tip of the iceberg. If you've got information about
35:49
Speaker 3: any unsolved murders or disappearances or the exploitation of children
35:55
Speaker 3: by powerful people in this era, don't sit on it.
35:58
Speaker 2: Get in touch.
36:00
Speaker 3: You can call Crime Stoppers, 1-800-333-000, or you can email me,
36:03
Speaker 3: adamshanderwriter at gmail.com, and I will pass on that information
36:07
Speaker 3: to Camille. This is Adam Shan from Real Crime.
36:10
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to this episode and
36:20
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36:21
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36:24
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36:25
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36:28
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36:35
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36:38
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36:40
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