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Mason Coppi - Pre Sunapee Scramble Interview · The Steep Stuff Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, fam?
• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, james Lauriello, and I'm really excited to bring you another pre-race interview with none other than Mr Mason Copey.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Mason probably widely considered by many to be one of the contenders for one of the spots going into Worlds this year.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Mason caught up with me just after a few hours removed from his effort on Mount Sinidas, where Mason took the overall crown and the win at the La Sportiva Mount Sanitas challenge and also took home a nice cash prize in route to beating Dan Kurtz and a few others at this challenge.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: It was really fun to catch up with Mason.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: We talked a lot about his build.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: We talked about cross training, where he's at right now, both mentally and physically, and just what it would mean for him to make himself or get back on Team USA again.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: It's been really fun to follow Mason over the last few months.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: He's really transformed himself as an athlete and it was cool to catch up and kind of convey that to the audience.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Mason has actually lived out in the Northeast, so it's going to be fun to see him kind of come back to some trails not quite the same as New York, but super technical, if not more technical.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: So he's definitely no stranger to the technicality of some of these courses.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Have to offer things like that.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: So, without further ado, hope you guys enjoy this one.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: None other than Mason Copey.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Mason Copey, welcome back to the Steep Stuff podcast.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: How are you, buddy?
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: I'm doing well.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on today.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, man, it's good to see you, it's good to catch up.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: I think the last time I saw you was at Pike's.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: I think you were hanging out at the expo there.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I was on the stage, I was like Mason Copey everybody.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: That was so fun.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: I loved the coverage of that event that you were doing there and it was super exciting for me.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: My, um, my fiance, was actually running it and so I remember, uh like came up on the stage, talked, hung out for a little bit and then just sprinted to try to make the tram Uh, so I could go up and like, uh, see her finish, and it was a super fun day, super exciting.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, man, it's been and it's been crazy.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Since then you've run some blazing fast times.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: You had a marathon build which looked amazing, which we could talk about.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: We'll talk about your half marathon as well and all signs.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: And then today you go and absolutely blow up Sanitas.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: So I'm excited to where things are headed.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: So part of the conversation or most of the conversation is is this is kind of a pre-race discussion for the soon to peace scramble.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: We'll be doing another one.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: I got to figure out everything for Broken Arrow, but I'm doing kind of one thing at a time first.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: So this is going to be more specific towards the Mountain Classic and Sunupi, so we'll be getting into that.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: So I think we'll start off with kind of pick up where we left off last time.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: You ran CIM.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Maybe talk about that race and how things kind of went for you there and it was a beautiful block to follow along and, yeah, go from there.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Uh, kind of once I had wrapped up my my trail season, I like last summer, I knew I wanted to enter into a road marathon block.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: I just think there's something really beneficial following up a trail season with some like um fast stuff, really reinforce good running economy, um really work on your aerobic thresholds and all that sort of stuff.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: It's all super applicable to trails and we see that with a lot of um like track and like road athletes coming into the trail scene and seeing them being really successful, and so that was kind of kind of my plan is I just really wanted to um like commit to uh a road marathon.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Uh road marathon build actually worked out really well because, um, I was already back in California for Thanksgiving hanging out with my family.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: So just the week after I I went up to uh sacramento um for the race and it was really cool um to like go up there.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: I've actually never been to sacramento.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: It was actually really beautiful and just had a really good experience there.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: It's still uh kind of struggling at the longer distances.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: If we're being honest, uh, I'm I'm definitely a crampy boy.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Uh, once we get past uh two hours of racing like right around the two hour mark is when, uh, I start dealing with some cramps, um, and I I did a pretty good job of managing that in the race itself, um, and so that was just a really successful build.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Got uh a really big uh PR there.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: I think it ended up being like like four or five minute PR, um for my last, uh road marathon build, um, so, yeah, it was.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: It was really good.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, I mean I remember seeing the results and I was like, wow, mason poured it on, this was, this was legit.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: I was like this is because we had talked in our previous conversation.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: We kind of I think there was some discussion around like christian allen and like some of um, I guess, one of the marathons that he had ran I can't remember if it was cim the previous year and you had said something along the lines with you know, I'm working really hard and like that's kind of where I want to be and, dude, sure Shit, you're pretty damn close.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, it was.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Uh, it was really fun to follow along and I it's just amazing to see, like um, you know, I guess this is the body of work since then what you've kind of been, you know, putting in in the off season and stuff like that, like it's been.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, I'll let you me as a coach.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: So I I coach mostly trail athletes, but I coach a lot of road athletes as well, and something that I'm always interested in is that intersection of like road and trail racing, cause I think there's a lot that you can learn from um road racing as a trail athlete and there's a lot you can learn from um as a road athlete, um from from trail racing, and there's like this very interesting intersection and I really took that to heart in my like a CIM build, which was a lot of fun.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: I was doing um as long as the weather like played out accordingly, I would do like a marathon, like workout, very classic, flat uh speed workout, um long run on Saturday, and then I'd go up back into the mountains on Sunday and just work on that vert and work on those eccentric contractions, having big adventures up there, just stacking aerobic um uh bricks.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: And then I also wove in a lot of biking as well, um, which was kind of a a fun little experiment.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: And then I also wove in a lot of biking as well, which was kind of a fun little experiment, and I've kind of continued that through throughout the off season.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the biking Cause.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Like I just I like working off a very tiny little injury that made me force me to take a couple of days off or about a week, and, dude, I hopped on the gravel bike and was like all right, well, I can still still move very efficiently and do really well on the gravel bike.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: I was like all right, so I'm not going to lose fitness doing this.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: And I was pleasantly surprised Like you could put in a solid three or four hours on the bike a day and it's like wow, this is, this is really fun.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: And I had seen your training as well, even up till now, like you're pretty balanced with doing significant amount of work on the bike as well as in the mountains or in flat stuff as well.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: So maybe talk about, like how that biking stimulus has really helped a lot as far as the volume goes.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no it's.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: I think biking is huge.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: If my my coaching hot take is, I think inclusion of more biking is is the next frontier, and I know a lot of people are saying that this isn't just my idea, um, but I really think of out of anything like there's so many advancements in training right now, from like bicarb, like people talking about ketones, heat training, all that sort of stuff.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: I really think that biking is the next frontier because it's like what you just said of like you can stack incredible aerobic bricks with very little like structural strain and structural breakdown so you can log a three to four hour ride with much less impact on your joints, on your your bones, on um, ligaments, tendons all that stuff gets preserved, but you have basically, you can basically add in almost like an extra long run, yeah, into your um, into your like train, which is wild and it's crazy.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: And another thing that I've been using a lot for is doubles like why do I need to do a running double that?
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: Usually, so I used to do running doubles that were about like four to five miles, which would take me anywhere from like 30 to like 40 minutes, but now I can do an hour long bike at almost a higher effort level aerobically and feel fresher the next day, like that's a win-win.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: So that's an amazing thing.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: And I think kind of where we're like starting to learn is like we don't need that much running, like I'm still hitting a decent bit of mileage, hitting a decent bit of mileage, but I'm nowhere close to like the hundred mile per week type athlete that we used to see like back in the day and I'm just replacing that with biking and right now I'm hitting like the same equivalent time volumes as a hundred mile athlete, but I'm doing it in a way that I'm feeling fresh day after day and I get to workouts and again I'm feeling fresh and I'm able to really hammer them.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: The other benefit of biking is it's just a lot of fun.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: I've just realized.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: I've just like realized I really enjoy it, um, so that makes um, like getting out for the sessions really fun and I love running.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Running is my favorite.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: But once you start pushing up to like the a hundred mile week range or like getting up there, it's like okay, I just want some variety in my training, yeah, and like you can kind of mix that in with biking and uh, I think it's huge, and the other reason why I think it's the next frontier is one it's really beneficial for um elite athletes, people like at the highest level competition, for the reasons I just explained, but it's also something that um people who aren't quite at the elite level can also benefit from like massively.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Anyone who's like mileage limited can also benefit from it, and it's something that I always push on my athletes and I understand if they don't like biking, I won't make them, make them do it.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: I'm not that cruel, um, but I it is something that I really encourage all all athletes to kind of like work into their training.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Can I, can I ask you, are you more a gravel guy or cause I couldn't tell based off a Strava are you a road bike guy?
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Cause I see you do some stuff off of lookout and I see you do a lot of other like dirt road stuff.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: So like, what are you doing?
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm doing the road mostly, um, because that's just like the, the bike I have, that was right now.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: That was the cheapest bike I could get on Facebook marketplace Uh yeah, gravel is in right now, and so I was able to get like, uh, uh, an older rim brake bike, Um so, and I actually did just like build up a gravel bike out of this old steel frame um bike from the 80s that I built up into a gravel bike.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: So I'm starting to get into it, but mostly I'm doing it on roads.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: Can I ask you just more specifically on the session stuff.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: So I've seen and you could get into this as much as you want to or however much you feel comfortable I'm just so curious about threshold stuff and different things like that, cause I've noticed like you'll do a few repeats on like lookout and stuff like that and then I'll see like longer sessions where you're doing a 30, 36 mile ride.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: That's like a two or three hour ride.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: How are you structuring these into your week to where?
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Um like strategically, if you will?
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: like strategically, if you will.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so um.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: On the bike.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Most of the time I'm actually not doing super structured sessions.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: I have done a few.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: I've done a few where I'm doing um, basically the equivalent of strides I don't know the proper terminology on the bike I um I think they're called spin ups, um, but I'll do those occasionally Um, a lot of the time I'm just trying to stay in in Z2, um and do Z2 style work, which again is another one of the benefits of of biking compared to um running.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: So if I were to stay at my Z two on like, uh, a two hour run, I would be destroyed afterwards, like I would just be so mechanically beat up.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: But I can do a two and a half three hour bike ride around Z two and feel, feel fine the next day.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Um, and then most of the lookout repeats.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: A lot of those have been doubles, which is a little intense, I think, for some people for a double.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: But I just really like lookout mountain, I just really like biking up and down it.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: I just think it's really fun and so I try to keep those, the uphill efforts, controlled at that at that Z?
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Um, but not really trying to to go too hard.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: I do have a problem, though, of like, if you're ever looking through my Strava files and like Mason, that's not Z2.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I do get competitive on the bike.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know what it is.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: It's just like when someone like passes by me or I see someone up ahead, I'm like I have to catch them and like I have to do it.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: I and I'm at the point where my running like if you look at my, my easy runs for for like running super super relaxed, super chill I'm going anywhere from like uh, like two to even sometimes five minutes slower than my marathon pace, and so that's like a significantly slow run.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: And I can do that on the on the runs, but for whatever reason on the bike, I'm like I got to catch him, I got to do it, I got to show him who's strongest.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: So that is something I need to work on.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: I love it, no dude, and I love the incorporation of it.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Like I said, I'm a little bummed that it took me, cause I had been looking at your Strava for a while and I'm like I've got the gravel bike and I've got like so much opportunity to get here on the trails and I just never did it, and then it's like a little injury for me to be like no-transcript.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: I was able to do was biking.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: So I started biking a lot and kind of started figuring out that I enjoyed it.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: And then I got back healthy and I started running again and it was actually um.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: And I started running again and it was actually um.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: On a run with uh Eli Hemming and I had been talking about like the biking stuff and and Eli was telling me how like he doesn't do, like he at the time at least, uh, he didn't do any uh running doubles, it was just all, all on the bike and I was like, oh, that's a really interesting idea, that's really cool.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: And um, so I I started thinking about it and started kind of like doing them as doubles.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: And then my coach, david, kind of suggested like doing like some long rides, like replacing a full run with a long ride, and I was like I've been really enjoying the bike, like yeah, let's try it.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: So it was a gradual thing to like learn to be like oh, this, this is fun and it's effective.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: It's super cool, yeah, and like, uh.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: And then one last thing I'll add to it is just like, like you said, like when you can you look at your heart rate?
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: And on some of the climbs I'm like, okay, yeah, you can sit in zone two forever.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: I zone two forever.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: I was like this is I.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it's because, like I have it like a, literally like not a peloton, like a cheap knockoff peloton, and, dude, I could never get my heart rate that high on it.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: So I'm like is this, this is zone one?
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: I'm like this is not that great, but when you actually get outside on the bike, you get your heart rate in perfect range and it's perfect.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I can't complain um, yeah, no, absolutely let's pivot a little bit.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about your Soonapy build.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: So, like I said, everything has looked really awesome and then today you go out and you absolutely demolished Sanitas.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Do you know?
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Dan ran today too.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: I saw him right before I started.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I got him.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: So I woke up super early this morning because I wanted to beat the heat and Sanitas gets crowded, and so I wanted to beat the crowds and start my warm-up.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: I knew that I had the fastest time before today and I knew that.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Or I guess, just for a bit of backtrack for the people listening right now La Sportiva is running a competition where the fastest known time in a span of a month will win a cash prize.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: They're also doing a competition where it's the local legend will also get a cash prize.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: So whoever runs the most loops um around sanitas in in a span of month and that competition is also going crazy.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: So definitely check that out.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Um.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: But I knew that, since the competition is ending tomorrow, um, that people were going to be gunning for my time.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: So I was like, okay, I got, I got to go back out there, I got to do it one, one more time.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: So I get out there super early and just run along and up the trail.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I just see Dan Kurtz, like coming down.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, this is just going to be a lot harder now't it?
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Um, and so, yeah, we, we chatted uh real quick beforehand.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Um kind of I talked to him about like my experience, like trying to set a time, um before, um kind of like checked in with that, and then we decided that we were going to attempt it solo and do it on our own, like true FKT style, and yeah, so that definitely added to the motivation of it.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: As I was climbing up Every time, I wanted to kind of like slow down.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I'm like Dan probably is hammering right now.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm sorry.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Oh no, go ahead.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: I was going to say you demolished it, absolutely demolished it.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Did you maybe talk about the effort a little bit?
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: I'm a little curious on this what, because?
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: And how it fits into the build, because obviously you haven't done any tune-up races going into sunop.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: It's been a little bit since you've raced.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Are these just little fitness checks like how, how is this looking for you as far as like where you're, how you're positioning these?
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: So I I haven't raced since the the Houston half marathon in in January.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Um, and I, just I I haven't had the travel budget really to like go out and get other uh races.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Like part of the issue of being like an unsponsored athlete is I have to be very selective with that and so kind of.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: This spring I've been targeting FKTs, and the Lost Sportiva challenge just provided a great opportunity for that of like.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, now I get to see how I stack up against some of the best sub ultra athletes in the space and in the U S, because I know everyone's going to be going after that Right, and I, to be clear for everyone, I have the FKT for now.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: There's still one more day.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: So, as of recording, I have it, but we'll see.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: The 14th.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as of the 14th, you've got it I don't know that's gonna be hard to lower that downhill like oh my god, like you smoked it.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: So yeah, crazy.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was uh something that like again, I is a very good training run because it's every element of of mountain racing.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: You have this super steep ascent from the gun, you have a technical scramble, um like down.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: That's um very hard, and then you get this like long downhill.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: That's.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: That's pretty non-technical.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: It's basically just a dirt road and you can really fly on it.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: And that was something that I know that I need to have dialed um heading into centipede if I want to make the team, I need to be able to close on those, uh, on those downhills, and um I I was really able to do that today.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: I was able to close in like a 409 uh for my final mile Um.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: So I was super stoked with that Um and also on the climb I also felt.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I didn't feel strong, it felt awful at the moment, if we're being honest, but I did have a good time up it and I was pretty, uh, pretty far up on the leaderboards for just the overall ascent Um and so, yeah, that there's no better other, there's no better workout heading into um.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: So to be then something like that and this is also something I really advise my athletes to do is like try to get a B race in, because that is going to be the best way that you are like that.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: That's the best training session you can get in.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: You could just push yourself more.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: If you can't get a b race in, do something like this like chase a segment and something like that.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: You just need to like kind of sometimes go to the well, this isn't something you do every every week because you'll you'll beat yourself up and like um that.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: That won't be productive for training, but I do think it is important before a big a race, you get something like a b race in yeah, yeah, and it's like, and it's like I think there's something to be said.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: I mean you should be elated and the reason I said that is because, like, from a confidence boosting perspective, like who's your number one competition on that day, one of the people is going to be dan, so to to go have that little matchup and say, okay, well, I beat him by a little bit.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: That's going to be massive confidence going into this race About, like, okay, the fitness is there.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Obviously, the fitness is there.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Now it's just a matter of just making sure I stay healthy and do some last minute things to make sure I put the cherry on the proverbial sundae and see what happens.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, confidence is really high right now and I'm really excited and, whether or not my time sticks or not, I think I'm super proud of my effort.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: I I think today I've demonstrated that I can hang with the best on the climbs, I can hang with the best on the descents, and that gives me a lot of confidence going into the race of just being like, okay, whatever people are going to be thrown down, I'm going to be in that ballpark to be in that ballpark.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this I'm going to dive back into the training aspect because you've done like one of the things I find very interesting, like you'll look at, for instance, like I just comparing Strava's.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: If you look at Dan Strava, dan puts in like he had a stupid amount of work this week, like 20,000 feet, and I was like that's all it depends on.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Obviously it depends on the type of athlete you are.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Some people's get a little excessive in the vertical gain, others don't like it.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I'm not a big vert person.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I think that maybe once or twice a week for big climbs is probably just enough adequate to dial those muscles in.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: You're not a giant vert person.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: I've noticed you get a lot in your biking and your runs are more faster and a little bit flatter.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Can you speak to that a little bit?
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: I've also noticed just to add more commentary commentary you've thrown in a couple green mountains and things like that for the technicality, like how are you starting to like layer in um, I guess, more of the specificity into this build?
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: yeah.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: So there, there's a few things here, um, I don't do.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: I don't do a ton of vert.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I've tried in the past and it beats me up.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: It just doesn't leave me feeling very fresh, um, and even like things like doing too many trail workouts, I just don't feel sharp.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: So I do a lot of my workouts on the track, um, and kind of my theory behind that is a lot of the.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: There is like a big strength component with vert, but there's also like one of the biggest things that kind of holds you back is like this neuromuscular component, basically your body's ability to handle eccentric contractions.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: The really interesting thing with that, though, is neuromuscular adaptation can be gained really quickly and through small stimuli, so a great example of this is strides.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: So strides are all about training the neuromuscular system.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: You don't have to do a ton of them to get the benefit.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: You can do like four strides and see a lot of benefit just from that.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: You have to keep it frequent, and you can't like you can lose it really quick if you don't like stimulate it often, but you don't need like a ton all the time, and that's kind of the approach I take with vert is I do very concentrated, very concentrated amounts of vert.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: I'm also thinking a lot about doing vert in a fatigue state, because when you're in a fatigue state so an example of this is a lot of times I'll go and get vert in after my track sessions.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: So my legs are now beat up from the track session that I ran really fast at and I've built up some eccentric contractions.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Now I go run up like the, the big, like um big mountain, like by the track.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: I run up that and then kind of bomb down.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Now I'm still getting a really good eccentric stimulus right at the end on tired legs.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: It's very similar to if you had done this big like vert run for the entire thing.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: And then the other thing I do with that is a lot of times I'll do back-to-back long runs on on the weekend, um longer runs.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: Those have kind of gotten um a little bit shortened, especially that sunday one.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: But those back-to-back days I try stack vert and those are like my bigger vert days and then so I get that really concentrated neuromuscular stimulus.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: But on those in-between easy days I'm keeping it flat, I'm keeping it easy, recovering my body so I can go hard on the hard days, and that's just something that I found really works well for me, and the same thing can be said about technical training as well.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Technical trails require a neuromuscular adaptation.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: You need to be able to like navigate the trails.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: But again, you don't need a ton of that.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: You can do small, concentrated bits of that and that's the.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: That's the approach that I take.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love it, dude, and you know it's so funny.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: You say that, Like I never used to go to the track, this off season I went to the track and I've been super committed to it.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: I'll usually go twice a week now.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: I love it and it's improved.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: My running it's improved, I think, every aspect of myself as an athlete.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: And stacking and being very specific, like I only really do vert on Saturdays and maybe one other day, usually like a Thursday, if I'm doing a hill workout, maybe I'll try and stack those, as I've gotten more specific into stuff.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: But I've just found the more flatter runs I do, the better my run economy, the better I feel and you get faster.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: So it's interesting.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, when you break it down, training can be broken down to training your metabolic systems, and you're training your mechanical systems.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Your metabolic systems are your aerobic system, your anaerobic system.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: You can throw in your glycolytic system in there as well, but that's basically just how big is your engine and that makes up a lot of training.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: And then your mechanical systems are like okay, your muscles, how much power can they put out?
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: How strong are you?
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Then you also have the neuromuscular system within that kind of umbrella.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: It's like how coordinated are you?
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: How can you move your body and stuff like that?
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: And the reason why I love the track so much is you can get your aerobic and why I love the bike so much is you can get your aerobic engine just so big and just have so much power that you can then utilize.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Then you just sprinkle in like the little bit of stuff to work on the mechanical systems, which again doesn't need a ton, just needs a little bit of a stimulus there and and you're flying and you're great, um, and so that's that's kind of how I view training, training in general.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, dude, I think you're onto something.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: And the reason I said I think the for the mountain classic and let's say maybe the 20 K down, I think that's the ultimate way to do it.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Know, maybe for the longer stuff, like the 50k and up, like maybe there's something to being on more trails or something like that.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: I don't, I haven't really looked into more of that or played around with that, but I think really keeping in the track sessions and doing things like that, just I don't know.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: I think it's just so important for builds like that, for the mountain classic distance and thing in that area oh, oh yeah, absolutely, and you make a great point.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: So it does get a little bit different when we're talking about ultras, because when you start going into an ultra race, you gotta basically what you have to do.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: When looking at races, it is what is going to be your biggest limiter, right, and at ultra races, your biggest limiter starts becoming the mechanical systems because you're pounding your legs so much.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: That's usually what gets people is like your legs are shredded and that is your biggest limitation.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: When you're talking about a sub-ultra, like mountain race, your biggest limiter is your aerobic system.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: So spend as much time on that as possible and you can even make an argument now and we are kind of seeing it in the in the ultra space, now that people are starting to pay a lot more attention to aerobic, like fitness and speed, um, I think that's like we're seeing some crazy fast times because of that Um, but it definitely you need more um mechanical training once you start going longer.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah no, definitely, I think you nailed it.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: It's dude, you're.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: You're a really good mind in the in the training space, Like I could see her and talk to you for two hours about this stuff.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: It's I.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: I see how like passionate you are and you geek out Like that's kind of the way I am now and it's like training theory is so much fun, Like just to figure out I love it.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so much fun.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: I think the human body is so cool, how it adapts to thing and how it works and like.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: This is why I love coaching and why I love working with it, because it's like a puzzle, you know, like you're just trying to figure out how the puzzle worked, how, like, how the game works and all this sort of stuff.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: So I love it and I can talk about it all day.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Super fun, super fun.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: All right, let's let's talk soon to P, let's get, let's get into the race.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, man, this is going to be.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, you've already raced soon to people for you know the course.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: You've lived in the Northeast.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: You know kind of what's expected of you at a race like this.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Like, how are nerves going in?
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Obviously, you're confident like any any thoughts going into the race, especially because you had made a team in 2022 and went and raced in chiang mai.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Like you know, you're a very experienced athlete going into this race yeah, so the course is different this year, so they have changed it slightly.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: So the year I did it it was a little bit different and it's actually interesting this year.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: So the year I did it, centipede hosted both the classic and the vertical, two different courses.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: The classic was just like these uh, simple loop up a road, kind of not very simple downhill.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: You kind of had to weave in between trees and there was no trail, but you had to do that in order to avoid the snow because it was, um, it was an early um championship, uh, so I think we were doing it in april, um, so there's still a lot of snow on the ground and, um, you just did two loops of that.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: This year you're going to do a similar loop to that, um, what we did in the past.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Um, I think the downhill might be a little bit different, but it's kind of hard to tell.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: But on the second loop, you're actually going to do the VK course or the vertical course, which is an extra long, extra technical ascent, and so it is going to be a bit different, and I didn't do the vertical that year, so it will be entering a bit into the unknown.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: I have a general sense of it, because I know people who did the vertical and I know how technical it is.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Back there, I would say I'm definitely excited for it and I am feeling very confident for the reasons that I gave earlier.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: I do think that there are some nerves, though, in terms of, like heading into a race with a lot of fitness and a lot of potential.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Right, because when you have a lot of potential, there's this possibility for things to go wrong.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: And then it's like oh, but I know I could have made the team, because I think, at this point in time, I do think I am in a position to make the team and I would also—and this might sound a little overconfident, but I think, like, I think I would be on like the best US team.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: So, like, I think I would really help round out the team and I could really help us do some big things at Worlds.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I say that because I think everyone should, like everyone who's gunning for a spot, should say that, like they think that they're, they would make the team the best.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: Uh, because we all want the team to do well, but there's so many good people in this race and and that's the awesome thing about these like sub ultra races is, everyone shows up to them and the competition is so, so tight.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: Like right now I'm sitting in a point where I'm like, okay, I could visualize myself winning or I could visualize myself not making the team, and like both things like could happen and that's just like how, how much talent there is in the field.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: It's a beautiful answer.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: I have to be honest with you, man.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: I'm just excited for you because, like I don't know, I feel like even like 2022 and then even last year's Mason, that's not the same Mason.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: I'm talking to you right now.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Like I, I can, I, even I can see haven't spent time with you a couple of times now and kind of seeing like senior progression and then followed your training Like I don't know I and like that goes into the confidence conversation I can ask you about mindset.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: I'm just so curious about this Cause I, I, you know.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Like I said, we have had you on the pod, we've had a lot of conversations.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: You have one of the most positive mindsets of anyone I've like really know in the sport.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Do you do and this is something I'm exploring kind of this now in my own journey thinking about things from a mental perspective, not just about training, but how do I see myself in the sport and how does this work?
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: Do you do a lot of mental work and how does that work for you?
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: So yes and no.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: So it's different from I wouldn't say I do a lot of classical like sports psychology work.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: I do go to therapy, so I'm a big proponent of therapy and I do that for just general mental health and general well-being and so I do that.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Another thing that has been productive for me and for me as a coach is I'm a part of the Coaches Collective run by Dr Laura Pence by Dr Laura Pence and that collective is really there's two parts to it.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: So there's a course that I took that taught me how to coach the whole individual, the whole like person and the whole athlete, and thinking about how to encourage vulnerability, how to encourage putting yourself out there and how to talk about hard conversations like doubt and all those sorts of things.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: So that's been super, super helpful as well.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: So it is something I'm constantly thinking about mentality and all of that but it tends to be more based in how can I come to accept myself as a person, and not even like taking into account the athlete part, like from the gun, like the most important thing is like getting myself as a full human being to be vulnerable and accepting and telling myself that I am enough, and that's where I put a lot of my focus on, um, on the mental side of things, and the really cool thing with that is, once you do that, the athletics just falls into line, like it.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Since I've been focusing on, on my mental health, more athletes like athletics and running just became so much easier, and it wasn't even like I was specifically addressing that stuff, it was just like how do I take better care of myself fully mentally?
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: And so that's my approach to it at least.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: No, I think it's a beautiful answer, man, and I think there's so much to that, because when you Ego is a crazy thing, right, when you remove ego from it and you realize this is just a sport I do, but this doesn't really dictate the person.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: I am or I'm still loved and I still.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: It's just like when you separate person I am or I'm still loved and I still.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: You know, it's just like when you separate those two things, you could still be an insatiable competitor, but like when you separate those two things, I think it just leads to such a better mental place, you know, and it's interesting oh yeah, absolutely.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: And the thing is is like I'm still uber competitive, like I talked about with the biking, and it's the same thing in races, like as soon as the gun goes off and and I'm racing, I am very competitive, I want to win, I want to beat the people around me, I want to like, I want to run fast, and that to something like I will say, that comes very naturally to me.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: I think the the big thing that I've changed is like okay, afterwards, no matter what happens, I can still accept myself and that takes so much pressure off.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: But that competitive edge hasn't changed at all.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: It's still fine, it's still there.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: I still want to like win, and it's just now.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: I don't spiral.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: If I don't or if something doesn't go, go quite according to plan.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: I think it's a beautiful way to say it.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: If you make the team this year, what would that mean to you?
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: I think the thing that thou mean to me I think a lot of things.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: So one, it's that the experiment worked.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: I do, I.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: It is like training theory again, like I am playing with just having an experiment of just seeing what this training does, and I think that will be really exciting to me is like just the experiment worked and it's just a validation of the work that I've been putting in but also my approach to approach to training, which is important to me.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Again, like as a coach, I really care about how, how my training works, because the stuff that I'm testing out on myself I'm passing on to my athletes right, and so I think it will like that that validation of of the training would be would be great.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: So I think those are the things that I'm kind of interested in.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Super cool.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: I think it's a great thing.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: I'm cheering for you, man.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Is there anything I'm excited?
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is going to be Soon.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: A piece is going to be bananas.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: When are you going?
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Are you going a little early?
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Are you going to go last weekend in May?
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: How does that work?
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: Are you going to see?
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: see the course yeah, so I'm gonna go out early, um.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: So I I recently moved from from syracuse last year to out to denver, um, and so I'm gonna go out early, hang out with friends, uh, in syracuse, and then we'll, we'll drive out and and do the race.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: That way I can get adjusted East coast time Also.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: I think, uh, a sneak potentially sneaky tough thing is if it's humid.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Uh, I tend to find that people who live at elevation struggle in humidity, because it's kind of the opposite you go from thin dry air to like thick, like humid air, um, and so that's just another thing that I kind of wanted to get acclimated with.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: I like that.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's perfect.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: Mason, do you think anything?
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: I think we got everything.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: What do you think?
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: I think we covered it all.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: I think that's.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: I think that's pretty much it for for for Sunday.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: All right, we'll chat after you make the team.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: It's going to be fun, dude, wishing you absolutely the best.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: I'm cheering for you every step of the way and, yeah, I'm so excited for what unfolds on June 1st and, yeah, I appreciate the conversation.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you, man.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: All right, thank you.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on every time we do this.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: It's fun.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: It's so much fun.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I love these conversations.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: Appreciate it, mason, have a great rest of your day.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: All right, thanks, you too Thanks.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Listen up, guys.
• 43:05
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• 44:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you.