Latest / Beheaded / Drunk on Power, Drowned in Wine | George Plantagenet, Duke of Clarence

Transcript

Drunk on Power, Drowned in Wine | George Plantagenet, Duke of Clarence · Beheaded

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to season eight, episode one: The Life and Death of George Plantagenet, Duke of Clarence.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Megan Moore.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: We did it.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank God.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: I said it the first time.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: We just spent like the past 27 minutes thinking about how we were going to rephrase our intro.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because we realized after eight seasons, seven, that uh we should probably tell you which person we're discussing on this episode at the very beginning.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Even though I'm sure it's such a mystery when you pull it up and there's a summary and a name and everything.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, we we kind of want to address the structure of our episodes.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: If you're new, welcome.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: We are beheaded.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about executions, historical executions.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and we always kind of take the first 10-ish, 20 heavy-ish uh few minutes at the beginning just to kind of chit-chat, catch up, let you know a little bit of who we are, and so we're not just like spewing out history facts about beheadings and you know hangings all night long.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: We try to keep it light and try to keep it fun.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like an easy way to do that is for you guys to know our humor a bit and things that we talk about.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, if you just fast forward to the content, you're like, why are they so lighthearted about this?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is kind of dark.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or our lack of humor.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah, yeah, no, I I kind of like this.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, wow, you did do it on the first take.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: I really thought we would need to take a few to figure out that new cadence, that new flow of how it sounded.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: But good job.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm how we can do new things, you know, teach old dogs new tricks.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Here we are.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we were trying to say, you know, once we launch into the conversation, like after the intros, do we talk a little bit about a summary of the person?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, no, let's just keep it clean, short, sweet.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is the person.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we'll get to them in 15 minutes.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Just for fun, should should should you try it again?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: But then until next time.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well, welcome back.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, kind of a short break, but we're here.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: We did.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: We had an extended season seven, so our summer break was a little short.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, very extended.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: The season that never ended.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we had a lot of things going on.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we're back every October.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: We launch into a new season.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's always 13 episodes.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: So join us on our journey for season eight.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe we're still here seasons later.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like we always thought we'd run out of content eventually, and we just keep discovering new executions.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Tonight's execution was one submitted by uh one of our Megan.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not me, Megan.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Different Megan.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Great name.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Another shout out to another Megan.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh gave uh gave the idea for tonight's episode.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, there were a few people, so I apologize if I am leaving anybody out.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I appreciate everyone checking in on us.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: We had a few, we had like a couple emails of like, hey, your girl's still around.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I felt all the love and it it's nice to be missed.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but and yeah, we're still here.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: We still like each other, which is really good.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like we haven't we haven't had a falling out or anything, so that's cool.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, there's been zero discussion on like canceling this show.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if anything, you know, we just talk about more ideas each season.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're like inspired.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's gonna be some new things happening.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: And we are constantly getting ideas and recommendations.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, no, we're we're barely getting started.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this is just the first seven years.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Get ready.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: The first seven years was like a prelude.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: This is the real stuff.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: What's new?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: What what have you been up to, Elizabeth?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, my summer was hot in Arizona.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: It is hot.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: I did travel a lot to the East Coast.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I've said this a thousand times on our podcast, but this has been the year of East Coast weddings.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: I feel I feel for you.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: I really do.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's torture.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's just you can't plan anything else.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we've been back a lot to the East Coast, specifically like uh Philadelphia, New Jersey, New York for weddings.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going again in like a week and a half for two more weddings.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: So those will be the last two of the year.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: But it was a very intense year.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully one day people will stop getting married and I could focus on vacations where I go tour more historical sites.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you should focus on uh on your upcoming nuptial nuptial, I can never say it nupitals.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: How cute are you?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, what is that word?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: Nufnuptuals?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: Nuptuals.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Nuftuals.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: I can't say that word.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's like one of those words you see and you're like, ah, nuppetals.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: I realize I don't think I've ever said that word out loud.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: I've only ever read it as like no petals.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: The first time I said subtle in high school, I was talking to a cute boy I liked in high school, and I said subtle, and he's like, I think you mean subtle, and I'm embarrassed.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've only read that word.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't realize subtle and subtle were like, I think it's a sign of intelligence when you read things and you don't and lack of special skills.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: Also, if you're new to our show, uh, that is the first mispronunciation of things of many.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome on board.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, you've been traveling all over the place.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: I've gone nowhere.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's not true.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: You just had a birthday and you went camping up north.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Still in Arizona.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but like remote to Arizona.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like three hours up north.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's crazy.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, no, not not like not a lot going on.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, I feel like summer is more summer's like winter for us where we kind of hibernate because it's so hot.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: You just we don't leave the house, we don't go out.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: It was a very hot summer.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm literally talking about the weather right now.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: I realize that that's how boring my life is.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: But it was it was a hot summer in Arizona.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: It was like 115, 117 um Fahrenheit for our international listeners.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of monsoons and haboobs and all those dust storms and flooding and anyways, it's just like wild weather.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's how we are in Arizona.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Unless you go somewhere else for vacation that's not weddings, you usually don't have a lot going on.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I was saying this to a friend the other day, but like October is the time where Arizona comes back to live.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: My Octobers are always crazy because all of a sudden your schedule's just jam-packed.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we will have more to talk about.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: As we should.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there is some hot news that's been going on in the past couple weeks.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: I will say we're probably recording this a little bit earlier than the release of it.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if this is so relevant.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: It should be.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, you know, we we obviously Elizabeth and I focus on historical executions intentionally because newer modern stuff we just don't dabble in.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: But my gosh, like I feel like we have to address the elephant in the room because people have been asking, like, what's your guys' opinion on this?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: I at the end of the day, we are an execution podcast.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And if we just point out the multiple elephants in the room that there are like executions happening in the US today, it's in the news.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And again, we're not gonna get political, we're not gonna talk about the morality of it all.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it is wild that, like in the last week, at least again, if we're releasing this a little bit early, um, but we've had one woman survive two doses of lethal injection.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And another man who's not only gonna be executed via firing squad, which hasn't happened since like I think 1945.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it must have been Mussolini, right?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or somewhere in that neighborhood.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and it's going to be potentially live streamed.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's just insane to me that it is 2026, and here we are still talking about botched executions happening in the US and whether whether or not you're gonna catch the latest execution or not.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it you know, it was interesting on our Susanna Lipscomb interview.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: She even brought up the question of why did execution stop being public?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it was because of the trains and how there were too many people coming to see them because of the convenience of transportation.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: And now we have the internet.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so, anyways, we we won't harp on it too much.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: But yes, obviously, we are watching the news.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: I had a couple messages of folks being like, What are what's your take on this?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: And again, we are historical executions, but evidently, I mean, methods are being revived and like all right, it worked before, so I don't know.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's just insane to me.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And again, like Megan and I, when we uh send messages like on Instagram back and forth to each other and things, we'll most we'll mostly make the jokes that references our old episodes, like, oh, who's gonna be swallowing the molten gold next for execution?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: So again, we we keep this episode these episodes light.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: We try to keep them as fun as you can make executions, more so just the craziness of the fact that they're happening.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: There is something we can take advantage of, this whole situation though.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, is I feel like hashtag execution.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Are we gonna get kicked off the internet again?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: No, people are looking it up.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe they'll stumble across historical execution.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying, this might be our moment.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is this interesting stuff?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: Next time you hear from us, we're gonna be like completely viral because our stupid videos are the ones that keep popping up.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: People are like, Yeah, I don't want to watch this.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: I want to watch Krista Pike.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we're like, no, sorry, you get the beheaded girls.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Talk about the Duke of Clarence now.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: Whoa, great transition.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Good job with that one, Elizabeth.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, just to put a cap on all of that, if there were a way that I had to choose to be executed, it might be the way the Duke of Clarence was executed.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, you don't want to spoil it.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, don't spoil it.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: But his his way would be the way I would go.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: These are the types of deep topics and moments of truth that we have to mull over a little bit on these types of episodes.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: See what you did there.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Those deep dark questions that we ask ourselves late in the evening while we're staring off into the abyss of darkness.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Stare into the abyss.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Cancel that again.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Jezus.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: Alrighty.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: George Plantagenet, Duke of Clarence.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, my name is Megan.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: I will be starting with early life.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: I love when Megan does early life.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: You say that, that means it's not gonna go well.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: No, I just like to see like how you kick it off.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: October 21st, 1449.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Jump right into it.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: George was born in Dublin.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, no, sorry, for real though.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: So George Plantagenet, he is the best way to know George, I think, which is sad.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: I hate I hate to just call him the middle brother, but he is most known for being King Edward IV's younger brother and King, the future King Richard III's older brother.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: So he was one of many kids, unfortunately, just because of the times, not a lot of them made it, but he's probably most well known for being the middle brother of two kings during one of the spiciest seasons of British history, which is during the Wars of the Roses.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to point out really quick that we have two books in front of us.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: One is on Edward IV and one is on Edward, or excuse me, Richard III.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I bought these books for Megan last Christmas.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And just very serendipitous is that that's how we kick off this season.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Also serendipitous that the middle child is missing his book in the middle.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: We don't we don't have a book on George.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: He was never king.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: I know, exactly.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Which I think that's just so symbolic and sad.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it says a lot that I have these two books on his brothers and nothing on George.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Also, this poor kid much thicker.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Richard, Richards is Edwards is thicker.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Edwards is thicker than Richard.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it is.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: More more stuff on Edward.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: So so little George, he was born in 1449 in Dublin.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: His father is Richard, Duke of York, and his mother is I don't even have this written down.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going off Cecily Zeville.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: Nailed it.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: She's the Duchess of York.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And Richard, even though his name is Richard of York, that's more of his like title, I suppose.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh his last name, I guess if you want to call it that, or House of is Plantagenet.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So Richard Plantagenet, George Plantagenet's father.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And the pl Plantagenets have a really big name in the Wars of the Roses.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just going, Wars of the Roses is it's very complex.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: If you really want to get into it, like read, listen to Dan Jones.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: This is going to be like the very elementary, high-level talking to a child summary of Wars of the Roses.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: I am the child.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: So this is myself reading my notes trying to explain it.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: But the best way to know the Wars of the Roses is there's really two sides.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: There's the Lancasters, who are represented by the Red Rose.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this is Henry VI, who is currently on the throne, and then there's the Yorks, represented by the White Rose.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, Duke of York is where this is coming from because Richard, Duke of York, George's father, had a pretty strong claim to the throne, but he was passionate.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like he really thought that he deserved to be king instead of the current king Henry VI.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: And Henry VI is an interesting fella.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he's married to the to Margaret of Anjou, who's just a strong woman.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: She's one of the she-wolves.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like she is a powerhouse.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's just interesting because Henry, not so much.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot we can get into with Henry VI, but he wasn't seen as a very competent king.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: In his later years, he went in and out of these very bizarre mental states where he was he was completely didn't speak, didn't move, and would go into these really odd mental stages.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: So his queen consort, Margaret of Anjou, had to fight for England on his behalf.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: So going from there, there's lots of battles, right?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: The Wars of Roses, Wars, plural, um, between the red and the white, also at the basis of Game of Thrones.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Just for fun.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, lots of inspiration there.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but there is battle after battle.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to get into all of the details, but what we do need to know is that Richard, Duke of York, was actually killed on the battlefield, not just killed, but also beheaded.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: And they took his head back to York to kind of just rub it in everybody's faces.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And as soon as he died, he passed along this legacy of fighting for the throne through his sons.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Through all of this, Edward IV, who is George's older brother, he's pretty young.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: He's only 18 years old.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: He fights Henry VI.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Henry VI flees during battle, basically gives up the crown of England, and Edward takes it.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I shouldn't have called him Edward IV until he was crowned, but just for context.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, which I love these stories of the battles of the Wars of the Roses, because this to me is just iconic British battles.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is knights in shining armors stealing the crown, quite literally, like fighting someone off.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: And this isn't the first and this isn't the only time that we've heard of this happening, but it is, it just feels so archaic and like mystical and fantasy.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just imagine dragons coming out, the fact that they would just fight for the crown.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's what you think of when you think of Middle Ages in England.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I absolutely do.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's important to point out, though, as I said, Henry VI flees.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't die, he's not killed on the battlefield.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: And this is really what stirs up a lot of the turmoil and tension we're about to see.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: But just to set the stage, then Edward IV is is king now.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Now his brother George is only 11, 12 years old, and he gets thrown a bunch of titles.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: He does.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the year is 1461 when Edward officially becomes Edward IV, King of England.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're wondering, wait, wasn't Edward the second son what happened to the first son?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the first son's name was Edmund, and he actually dies in battle with the father.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: So clears the the way for Edward to ascend to the throne.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's not confusing neighbor because Edmund.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Edward.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, again, he's called Ed Eddie.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Ed and Eddy.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Ed Ed and Eddy.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean, in this day and age, we see the same names over and over, right?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we try to do our best to make sure everything's very clear with who we're talking about.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: But now George is given titles, right?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's the brother of the new king.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: So he's now made the Duke of Clarence, and he's made Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: I also love that uh like the British accent, they say lieutenant.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: I just think that's so cute.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: I I'd like to mimic it, but I would butcher it.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds so stupid if we said lieutenant.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Lieutenant with lieutenant.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so anyway, so he gets all these titles, and George starts really living extravagantly, even though he's young, right?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: He's only a preteen at this point, but he knows he's important.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: He knows his family's important.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: He's obviously somewhat in line to the throne himself.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so he just goes on spending sprees.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: He's just living his life with his new titles and his new uh estates that he's getting money from.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: He is, however, probably a bit jealous of his brother for being king.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And he might be being persuaded by an outside influence.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: So George is essentially talking to and probably making eyes at Isabel Neville.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Isabel Neville has a father, and we've talked about her father before on previous episodes, but her father is Richard Neville, and you might know him as The Kingmaker.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: So a famous book.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't read it.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Philippa.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, about Isabel?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: I guess and it could be and Ann and Neville.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so anyway, so Isabel and uh her father are slowly bringing George to their side, where they're saying, you know, your brother doesn't really need to be the king.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And there's other ways that we can get you on the throne.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And how about you just kind of come over to our side?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: So even though at this point in history Richard Neville is a Yorkist, he starts to get more sympathy from the Lancaster side.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so Richard Neville, he is the Earl of Warwick, which is official his official title.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And he and George actually begin this whole uprising in northern England in March of 1470.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a few years later.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: At this point, uh, George is, I think, about 19 or 20 years old, but he marries Isabel and this uprising begins.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: So now it's like official.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're no longer just conspiring and plotting, they're now making moves against the king, Edward IV.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's pretty bold to rise up against your own brother, your own flesh and blood.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what kind of heart do you have to go against your own family?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I don't know.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think a highly persuaded, highly suggestible heart.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: So so uh so this this uprising starts, and as soon as Edward IV gets wind of it, um, the Earl of Warwick, Richard Neville, the kingmaker, he kind of panics, and so does George.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so the first thing they think to do is to flee to France because this is gonna offer them a bit of protection.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, who's gonna be the main rival of the King of England, the King of France?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: So they go see Louis XI.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds so strange.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: We never talk about Louis XI.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, well, we don't care about him.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't even we like the beheaded ones.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like the ones that come a bit later.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so they go to France and they ally or they they ally themselves with their former enemies, which are the Lancasters, and they briefly restore Henry VI to the throne.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we just talked about kind of disposed, incompetent Henry VI.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: He hasn't been on the throne since 1461, which is about nine years earlier.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: But now they go ahead and say, Henry the Sixth, throne is yours, we'll support you, we'll we'll raise armies in your name.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And Henry VI says, Well, because you guys have helped me, and who knows if he even said this, right?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're paraphrasing here, bear with us.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: But he's he's essentially saying to George, Georgie, dude, my man.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's like my own son, you're going to be the next heir to the throne.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: So if you again ally with my side, that's what your future will look like.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Which to me confuses me a bit because aren't you a little closer to the throne if your brother's the king?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: But he doesn't picture his brother, he doesn't Henry does not see in any way that Edward is king or deserves to be king.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's out of his brain.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean George.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Who are you talking about?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm saying if I'm George, I'm thinking that Oh, I see what you're saying.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: I sorry, I thought you meant I thought you meant doesn't Henry see his right.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: I get what you're saying.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: George George would have he could have just been chill, just wait it, waited it out and been next in line.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Or not though, because Edward's gonna have kids and then he doesn't yet.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just thinking if you're gonna go through all of this like Uh, rigamara.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: What is that word?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: I just learned it recently and I don't know how to use it right.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Is that the right way?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is a podcast for learning kinds of things.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're gonna go through all these, like, you know, jump through all these hoops, wouldn't you just stay next to your brother who's king who might pass away at that moment?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you're loyal, but if you notice there's a theme throughout these events where George kind of seems to stick by whoever has power in that moment, like he is not a very loyal, loyal friend, family, brother, whatever.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's true.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he does start to realize that perhaps King Henry VI and perhaps Warwick the Kingmaker aren't really looking out for George's best interests because quickly what happens, Warwick has other plans.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: He has another daughter, Anne Neville, who's he's marrying off to Henry VI's son.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: So now he's making this whole nother separate, again, line and saying, okay, I'm gonna ensure that my daughter is married to the king's son, they're gonna have their own heirs, and we're gonna be this royal family.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he does that in December 1470.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: So this all is all happening like in a very short time period.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's doubling down on his connections to the throne.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: But George is smart enough to at least realize that, ooh, even though I came over to this side to potentially be closer to the throne, it looks like they're kind of doing some sneaky moves where I may not be even next in line here.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: My notes are probably the most precise.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna read verbatim what I said in my notebook.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: George WTF, not about me, back to Ed, heart love, bro love, heart sign.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's Megan's.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Those are my notes.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: What do your notes say?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, my handwriting's so small, I can barely read it.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I like I like uh what you're doing there.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: So you do.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: So through your little cryptic notes, you're saying that he reconciles.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: He reconciles because he was like, what the what the fuck, man?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: Why why are you now not putting all the focus on me, making me in the line of succession again?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be right back after a quick break.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: Hey executionados, as you know, Elizabeth and I take our snacks very seriously.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: On podcasting nights, we have charcuterie reports and pizza, and it's so much fun to sit and eat and talk about our favorite stories in history.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes, though, on podcasting nights, things just get way too busy.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just getting a forks, we're collecting our notes, we're preparing for the show, and I just don't have time to get to the store.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's when I use Instacart.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: Instacart has multiple stores so I can find all my favorite products.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: My items are hand selected by a shopper based on my preferences and can be delivered to my door in as fast as an hour.
• 24:51
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• 24:55
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• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Follow the link in our bio on our Instagram page, and that will let Instacart know that we sent you.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: Now, back to the show.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: 1471, Edward gets back to the throne.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: He has all of his supporters, they regain London.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like once you have London and you have the support of the Londoners, which is the biggest heart of England, that's a that's a good win.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: He actually goes into battle again.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's the Battle of Barrett this time.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: He kills Warwick at battle.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't know if he specifically kills him.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: In my brain, I like to think that Edward is out there fighting with his sword and he sees Warwick from the distance and he charges him, and there's a big battle scene, and then the music gets really loud, and then it turns into slow-motion fighting, and then they're like, and then there's like some big like anyways, okay.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: Someone says freedom.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's very dramatic.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: But, anyways, Warwick dies, so the kingmaker at this point dies in battle.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: Henry the Sixth's son is also killed in battle.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: Ah.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: Henry VI flees again, that bastard ends up in the Tower of London and dies.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: How does he die?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: It is almost certain he was murdered, but not confirmed.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because how convenient for someone to just fall ill and die in the Tower of London as your prisoner, trying to figure out what to do with that person when there's someone else who just took your crown and is on the throne.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: We'll leave that up for the mystery of it all.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: But all we need to know right now is basically everyone in Henry VI's line is gone.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: Henry's gone, his son is gone, Warwick, his number one supporter, is gone, and Edward is back on the throne.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: So of course, back to Ed, heart, bro, love, George is now back on Edward's side.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Makes sense.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Invenient.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because King Henry VI's son dies, that means his wife, Anne, Neville, is now a widow.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: So she's free to marry again.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: So at this point, um, good old Georgie, our main man of the evening, uh, he, because he's been in involved in these battles, he's fought for Edward's restoration.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And now, again, Ed, heart, grow, love, they're essentially back to where they were at the beginning.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so Edward IV get grants him new titles, new lands.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: So he makes him, George, the new Earl of Warwick.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: So Earl of Warwick was the kingmaker, Richard Neville, but now the new Earl of Warwick is George Plantagenet.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations, George.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: Congratulations.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: He's also the first Earl of Salisbury.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: If you recognize that name Salisbury, there's a reason, and it'll come up again at the end.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: And this is now 1472.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Again, not that much time has passed here.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he also gets another title of Grand Chamberlain of England.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good one, I feel like.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So again, even more titles than before.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so again, so we talked about Richard Neville, the war uh Earl of Warwick dying in battle.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Anne Neville's now widowed.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And what does Anne decide to do?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or someone decides for her.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows how much power she had in all this?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: But Richard, the younger brother of both Edward and George, he's single.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: He's ready to bangle.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: He's got one of those cute little bob haircuts that they all had back then.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: That little that little chin length, straight bob.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like the 90s.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of a dead and sovereign.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Wait.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: Or like should I should I be Richard III for Halloween?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Speaking of England?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: You'd be you'd have to have no makeup on, and we'd have to like make your lips look really tiny like they do in the pictures.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: I just realized I had that hair, I have that same hairstyle.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: So this is much more stylish.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Got a cute thing going on.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so Anne Neville ends up marrying uh Richard, your brother, who again is future King Richard III.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Dun dun dun! We don't know that yet in the story.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know yet.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: We just know he's young brother Richard.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: But this sets up a big dispute between brothers George and Richard because now you have Richard III marrying Anne Neville, who owns all of these estates uh for Warwick, her father, but the new Earl of Warwick is George.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: So they're fucking over the Warwick lands.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, well, who's essentially the one that's supposed to get these?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the daughter who's whose father just died and had these lands?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it the brand new Earl of Warwick, George?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: The whole thing just kills me.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, your brother's the king of England, and they're just being petty and arguing over lands and riches, and everything is just so materialistic for these boys.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: What about the love that you have for these sisters, Isabel and Anne?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but no, it's not about that.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, and it just shows how historically humans have always been petty.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like no one thinks about the big picture, no one thinks about the long-term loyalty or how your name's gonna be in the history books.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone just thinks of the here and now, and how can I get more money tomorrow?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, look at how their names ended up in the history, in these these history books right here.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: These history books right here.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: So 1475, um, Isabel gives birth to a son.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: She did give birth previously as well on the ship to Calais to France.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, thank you, Calais.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Another word like nupatles.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: You see it, you read it, call you don't.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Calais.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, but unfortunately, very sadly, that baby didn't make it.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but she has one son named Edward, and then another son named Richard, because why should we get creative with our names here?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just keep let's just keep naming them Edward, Richard, Henry.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: No Henry's.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: We don't like Henry at this stage.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um but she gives birth and then about two months later, December 22nd, 1476, she dies.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: More than likely, she dies of either consumption or birthbed fever, which is a general term for like childbirth issues.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Childbirth fever afterwards, infection, I'm assuming.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it could have been tuberculosis.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say, is consumption the same as tuberculosis?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Or there's yes.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're doctors.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: I say that with confidence.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, indeed.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: So at this point, George, who again has always been a little wishy-washy in terms of allegiances and where his uh mental state lies, he convinces himself that Isabel wasn't just sick and died right after childbirth.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: He's very convinced she was murdered, and not only murdered, but poisoned uh by one of her ladies in waiting.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So he starts looking around her chamber and he's like, you, this woman, she poisoned my wife.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: What motive?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: But he's so convinced of this that he goes to court and he argues um on behalf of his past wife, saying, you know, she was wrongly murdered, and this woman, her ladies, uh lady in waiting, needs to hang for it.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And do you have the name of the lady in waiting?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting name.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can't pronounce this name.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Encarette Twinhoe?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Encorette twinhoe.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I'm saying that right.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's A-N-K-A-R-E-T-T-E.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Last name is T W Y N H O.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: Twin.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Twineho.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: An Corette Twinehoe.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: I have a child.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's funny.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, she doesn't end very well, sadly.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Her and one other guy, I didn't write it down.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's like John Thornberry or Thorn something.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: From the Wild Thornberries.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: That name may not be may not be correct.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, this trial was a one-day situation.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: She he had her arrested, quote, tried, and hanged all within 12 hours.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a problem.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know why?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: I I'll tell you why.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because George has no power to do this.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it is not his place to be able to basically judicially murder someone without a fair trial, and then claiming what their sentence is gonna be and have them hanged all at once.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Edward, his brother, the king, who has the power, has no idea any of this is even happening.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: You're right.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, that was a kind of a trick question I put you on the spot there.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, oh no, I should know this answer.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it like, I mean, Edward IV, the king, he was so upset that this even happened that a year later he pardoned her.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he pardoned her after she was.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, like what good is that gonna do?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: I guess for her family.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, have a good name for it.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I would remember however we want to pronounce her name in the future, except queen.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this was just another clear sign that mentally George was really deteriorating.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was obviously becoming very paranoid.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And what do paranoid minds do?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: They start to plot and scheme.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that is what he does again.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: George starts plotting and scheming against his brother Edward.
• 34:22
  unknown: Okay.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, dude, you have a good thing.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Just be rich, have your brother make all the decisions, sit back and relax.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, he was deeply affected by uh the loss of his wife.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's still jealous of his brother for being king.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: He's now jealous of another brother for inheriting so much uh land.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: So he finally does one thing.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like he goes to Edward with one more request, and he says, Okay, in lieu of all these bad things that have happened to me, woe is me, right?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, please give me more.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Such a victim.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: He says, How about I potentially wed Mary, the Duchess of Burgundy?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think he's just looking for a wealthy woman at this point, and he thinks this will maybe ease his wife's passing and get him more land, get him more money.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And Edward IV is like, absolutely not.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, first of all, I think he wanted to marry this woman years and years ago, and he was denied then by Edward.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh actually, I think we just have this weird brother rivalry happening.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: This is a presumption for Megan, but I think he just doesn't want him to be happy.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because he opposed marriage to Isabel Neville in the first place.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Edward did.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: He opposed it because they were first cousins.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: So he was like, now that's too close in the bloodline.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, they ignored his own.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: We did it anyways, yeah.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm never quite sure why he didn't want Mary, Duchess of Burgundy, to be involved.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe again, maybe it was just a rival thing.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: I I'll I'll have to look it up later.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: Write that down.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, every here's the no, I'm not gonna write it down because this is what keeps happening.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Don't make me write it down.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: What keeps happening is I write these notes down for next episode of like things to research, and I bring it up to Megan the next time, and she's like, that's not important.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: People are gonna forget that.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sorry, if we keep leaving you with the fangers, that's why.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's because I'm making the decision of what's important and what's not.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'll write it down.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: Why doesn't Henry want Mary?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: She is a fully slot.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Do not trust her.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Do not trust her.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: For the mean girl fans out there.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: If you know, you know.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: It was just October 3rd.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's always like a true connection when you can just randomly quote the most like stupidest things from a movie.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then people instantly know what it's from.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: Treats ugly.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Where were we?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, and then last thing I'll say really quick about uh George and his declining mental state.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that really comes back to Biden is apparently he keeps this signed document from deceased King Henry VI that states that George would become the king in the event of Henry VI's death.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: So he has this random old document that establishes his claim to the throne.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's pretty traitorous of you to hang on to.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: If this document ever did exist, like you having that in your possession while your brother's on the throne.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's suspicious.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of picture it, it'd be like modern day if you had an old boss that promised you a promotion and then wrote it down like Megan will be the vice president of this company, but then they got fired.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you bring it back to the company.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then you have a new boss, you're like, Well, I kind of been holding on to this for like the past year.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: So is this valid?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: It just it, yeah, it's irrelevant at that point.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: But he's clearly holding on to that important document for a reason because he doesn't quite fully trust his brother Edward.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: And he's really petitioning a lot of people to get on board with him, primarily his own household, his own servants and his own staff.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, of course, they're gonna say yes, they're loyal to you.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: So he forces them to make their allegiance towards George, he forces them to get on board with this idea of a rebellion to put him on the throne.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, You want a job or not?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's basically blackmail.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, put him out on the street or say that your allegiance is with me.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: And he's kind of creating a problem out of nothing, too, right?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, again, just let Edward be on the throne.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: So Edward is really starting to pick up on how disgruntled his little brother is getting.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't quite understand his reasoning behind this.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: I you know what?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't feel like Edward was the greatest of guys.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'll just say, I don't think any of them were great.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think all of these brothers were F.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: They were all stinky, they're all terrible boys.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: But Edward Where was their mother in all of this?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: I would like to know.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to know.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Their dad died on the battlefield, but like, where was where's Cecil?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: She's hanging out on her estate, someone being like, you guys figure it out.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, boys.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: Edward is starting to kind of fire off these warning signals to his little brother, like, dude, watch it.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, be careful because I'm on to you and I have a lot of power.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: And he does this by arresting one of his retainers, one of George's retainers.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: So this guy named John Stacy, who again has this like forced loyalty towards George, he's also an astronomer, which I just think that's badass.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Whenever if you were like a, I know, if you were a 15th-century astronomer, that's just edgy.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Are you like Nostrudamus, kind of like people think you can tell the future because you can read the stars?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of a dangerous role, too.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, look at Galileo and you know, yeah, big ideas.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: So this guy, John Stacy, they take him to the Tower of London and they torture him.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: I guess to try to get him to fess up to everything that George is doing.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not quite clear on the reasoning of the arrest and the torture, um, but he gets him to admit that he was imagining the death of the king and that he's using black arts to do this.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it just looks really bad on George because he is his retainer.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, he again, like they're kind of creating all of these issues out of nothing.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he actually calls out two other guys.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it's it's not enough that you're getting tortured, and then you start dropping names.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: He adds in a few other names, um, Thomas Burdett and Thomas Blake.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna throw a couple Thomas' in there.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: And they all, they all, they're all arrested for imagining the death of the king and for being rebellious, and they all get sentenced to be hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyrone.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: Now, Blake, Thomas Blake actually got off okay.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a bishop like fought for him, but the other two were hanged, drawn, and quartered.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that sucks.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: And George was pissed.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like these are his friends, they're close to him.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so at this point, he's really making a scene.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: And he's declaring not only his innocence, but he's drawing attention to all of this turmoil that's happening, um, and for all these reasons why his brother's upset.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: He even builds scaffolds and preach, like blatantly is making a scene in in front of the cast in front, yeah, in front of the castle or wherever it is that they're living, and like basically protesting um and saying bad things about his brother and whatever.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: He he kind of just thinks he's untouchable.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a really bad choice.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: He even storms into parliament and again, like creates a scene.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's just becoming an issue to the point where Edward is like, we gotta do something about my brother.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: He's a pain in the ass.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: We've had enough.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if he actually took him that seriously.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I that's the one do you like?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that Edward was actually afraid that he would start a big enough of a rebellion and get him off the throne?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: Or do you think he was just on him as a nuisance?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: He did it once before.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: Sorta, but with but with Warwick.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: That work was more like the muscle, like he was the king maker.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we have to remember their ages at this point.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, well, George is in his 20s, he's 28 at this time.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like you probably don't take him that serious at this point.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like yes, he's sparked these rebellions, he's been on.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: But also, I mean, this is also the 1470s.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's like 55 and medieval times, CEO age.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um but one thing that was totally not okay, uh, besides him just being fussy and going out and speaking against the king, but he starts to question the king's legitimacy.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Boo.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think he was talking a bit about this before we started podcasting, but he also is questioning, I suppose, the legitimacy of the king's heirs, like his sons.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because he is potentially revealing a previous marriage contract of Edward IV.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: So he's saying, Well, these sons aren't actually legitimate because your marriage is a legitimate because you've had a previous contract.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where it gets a little bit muddy because that was also something that Richard was stirring up years.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: No, sorry, Richard, who becomes Richard III, the youngest brother.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: He kind of stirs up this theory as well.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: But this happens years later as well, when he's also trying to wedge his way in, which that's a whole nother story.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's it's not confirmed whether this was part of the reason for why George ends up getting arrested.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: But there's a lot of theory that I think, like in general, he was causing a lot of trouble, saying a lot of things.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Putting his foot in his mouth.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that's an area you do not want to mess with because the most important thing is that for England at this time, that their king on the throne is legitimate and he has sons who are legitimate to keep that bloodline going.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're questioning that, like, oh, dude, shut up.
• 44:17
  unknown: Yeah.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to remember this is a time where even if you spoke of the king's death, that was considered treason.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, look at John Stacy.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: So uh yes, he was his brother.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so maybe he was given a little bit more leniency.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if this was, you know, just another noble or a peasant, they would have probably been executed pretty swiftly.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but Edward IV has officially had enough.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: So in January 1478, he orders George's arrest.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, George ends up in our favorite place in London, the flower of London.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: And he's officially charged with high treason.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's bad.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Bad, bad, bad.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's bad.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: And his official charges were slandering the king, receiving oaths of allegiance to himself, which he did with his servants.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: So he was like, you know, out there trying to be loyal to him.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he was preparing essentially for a new rebellion, is what they they said.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: So after all of this, and this was actually, you know, we talked about people being uh in the Tower of London for months to years.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was surprised how swift his execution came.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: Once they charged him.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because he was thrown in there in January, and February was his execution date.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: February 18th, 1478.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: This is where it gets exciting.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: This is where I would choose my form of execution.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: This has a lot of controversy behind it because it is not proven.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: There are some historians who very much agree that this didn't happen.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: They think it's rumors, it's just all part of the story behind it.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's some are like, this could have happened.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: Supposedly, because he was the king's brother, Edward at least gave him the courtesy of choosing his own way to die.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to talk about this a little bit more about how would the brother of the king have been executed.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: The most like known way for someone of royalty or nobility would have been a clean beheading, probably in a private execution.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: And what we do know is George did have a private execution, which is part of the problem.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know how he died, but we we think we know.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was private, it was in the Boyer Tower.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's what we know for sure.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that's we know when and where.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: And why.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know how.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: But how is the big question?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Rumors quickly spread as soon as he was executed that the way he died was he was drowned in a butt of malsey wine.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: A butt.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Don't touch the butt.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so a butt of wine is like a vat of wine.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's equal to a barrel, right?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's a giant barrel.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's um over a hundred gallons of wine.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just like our standard like barrel size, it's it's it's big.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's you can put a human in it.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: So the consensus is that he was put in headfirst and drowned.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people are like, absolutely not.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's complete theater.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, who would actually die that way?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: We have to remember he is the brother of the king.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he did get the luxury of deciding the way he would die.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's what he chose.
• 47:44
  unknown: Right.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the the biggest thing about this wine, too, is it wasn't just kind of standard, like shitty wine.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't your two-buck chuck from Trader Joe's, which is no longer$2 because of inflation.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: We used to call it two buck chuck.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's like$3.99 chuck.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: Anyways, continue.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this wine specifically was very luxurious imported dessert wine.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: And typically it came from the Mediterranean.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think this specific wine, it was said to be Cretan, so from the island of Crete in Greece.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so this wasn't just like, eh, I'll throw him in the vat of wine.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was like drown him intentionally in this nice fine wine imported or head first.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: This seems ridiculous, right?
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: But is it ridiculous?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: The one thing I think that people, historians who do err on the side of, eh, this could have happened, is because there are multiple accounts describing the scene, but we have to take this with a grain of salt.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: Supposedly, there was actually only one person who actually took account of it.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then these later documents we found came out about five years later, again, kind of like I heard from this person from this person.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a couple.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: There was a French guy named Jean de Roy, there was an Italian guy named Dominic Mancini.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they wrote their accounts of it in 1483.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: Even Sir Thomas More, our buddy Thomas, uh, he wrote in the history of King Richard III as a biography in 1513.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: He also wrote about, like very strongly as fact, describing how George was dunked headfirst and drowned in wine.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now, there's also accounts of like, well, you know, that probably again, everything we just said, like probably came from rumors.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: There isn't an official record of how he how he did die.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: And but the other thing is his body was exhumed.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_03: It was.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: And he was neither hanged or beheaded, which I think is important.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: They can tell based on forensic evidence that his body was not uh hurt that way.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it should be noted that it was very popular in mostly Scotland, Scotland.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: Scotland Scotland in Scotland for people to die via to be executed via drowning.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't unheard of that people were sentenced to be executed and then were executed by drowning.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: This was very common in Scotland at this time.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we have to remember, I mean, they're they're they are from Dublin, but it's like, you know, they're all in the same guy.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so it's just one of those things where it's like because he's the brother of the king, because this was a common thing to be drowned, um, and it was a luxury wine, like maybe this was a choice, a very yeah specific choice of him.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: Again, if we're given the choice, I'd be like, put me in the finest wine and let everyone talk about it through the centuries.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: And again, that's a whole nother discussion, is why did he let's just say he did for the sake of argument.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: Then why did he choose this?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: Was it some people think maybe he was trying to kind of rub it in Edward's face because Edward was very prone to drinking wine, that he was just like kind of making fun of, yeah, poking fun at his character.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's also going going back to the theory of what the Scots believed and drowning, is there was also this belief that spilling royal blood was heinous.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: So beheading them, hang-drawn and quartering them was seen as something dirty.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: So they wanted to keep the body intact, which again, then hanging would make sense, but that was almost like beneath someone of royalty.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's like they needed something more luxurious, like imported wine from Greece.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um always fascinating with these execution methods.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we talked about this in an episode we did on ancient Greece.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because strangulation was a popular method of execution for that same reason.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't want to essentially like spill blood, like cut the body open and spill blood, you know, because then it would ruin your chances in the afterlife type of thing.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so funny to see the different regions and different periods of time, like what was considered normal, which as we just talked about, our day and age, we're still Yeah, we're evidently we're still having this conversation.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: It changes all the time.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and I apologize, I forget if it was Manch Mancini or the French guy, Jean De Roy, but one of them even said initially his sentence was supposed to be hanged on and quartering, but his mother, who comes out of the nowhere, boys will be boys, her sons are arguing again.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: Evidently, she's the one who said no, he should be beheaded.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then it whatever, then it went further, and they're like, No, actually, we'll let him choose.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, maybe, and that's another thing too.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if they were gonna put on this much of a spectacle, get very expensive wine, which by the way, did they drink that wine afterwards?
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: Probably not.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: Dead body in it, you know, it's like, okay, and the argument of this, there's no way this happened.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why would they want to keep that private?
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why would if it was such a spectacle, why would they want to keep it so secret and not talk about it?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: So like we always have to ask who benefits from the information getting out.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of on the side of I don't think it happened.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like they would have made it more public then.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then also, I don't know, it's just like rumors run fast.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: So who, who knows?
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, I I think there is one piece of evidence though that I like to cling on to that I think is a strong argument that this did happen.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I first came across this in our friend Adam Peddington's book on on um the Plantagenets and the Poles.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: Margaret Pohl, the Countess of Salisbury, is his daughter.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: Is George's daughter.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: George's daughter.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: Also, um, he has another son who we haven't done a story on him yet, but basically both of his kids, it doesn't, it doesn't turn out great, unfortunately and sadly.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but where I was going at with this is the evidence that I like to cling on to is in the famous portrait of Margaret Pohl.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: She has a bracelet.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: And on that bracelet, there's a charm.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: And if you look closely, it looks like a barrel of wine.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: It looks like a butt of wine.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: It looks like a butt of wine.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: Why else would she have that if it wasn't in memory of her father who I'm sure she looked up to?
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like specifically of that of wine.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: That is odd because it's not if you like say again, say it was me and I had a charm bracelet.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I as you do.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if I had a charm bracelet, and I'm a big, you know, wine drinker.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: I try to put grapes, maybe a cork, maybe a bottle, maybe a glass.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: The last thing I would really think to put is like a barrel.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's very specific.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't even know they had charm bracelets in the 1500s at this point.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it started with Margaret Pohl.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, anyways, I think that's like a little fun fact.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll try to post something, but you should find Margaret Pohl's portrait.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's like her one and only, and zoom in on her.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: If you can't, I'm assuming you're on your phone or whatever.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm I'm zooming on my phone with my fingers.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, look at at the charm and tell me what you think.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: And remember what these portraits, these are official portraits that were usually commissioned by the person sitting in the portrait.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: So they were very intentional about what colors they wore, what was in the background, what clothing they all their jewelry.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: She's holding a white rose in it for the York's New York's.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: Everything is symbolic, everything is intentional.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: He's not gonna randomly wear that.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like, oh, she just happened to have it on that day.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: No, they're very specific.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it tells a story.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that does say something.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: And two more notes just about this story and how it perpetuated through history.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, William Shakespeare actually has a play, Richard III.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: We like him.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he um he he depicts this in the same way.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: He talks about George Plantagenet.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in the play, George dies because he was drowned in a mountain of wine.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: So Shakespeare obviously continued to spread this rumor throughout time.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: And Shakespeare specifically said about George Plantagenet that he was weak-willed and highly influenced.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, which a thousand percent he was.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that was a way to like intentionally continue to spread the rumor, or do you think Shakespeare truly believed that that's what happened?
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I actually need to be more of a Shakespearean person.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like I learned Shakespeare in school, but as an adult, I haven't really visited a lot.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know his true intention.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel like a lot of his things are satirical and like making fun of things.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it was just, oh, people believe this enough.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like it is just funny that this was the rumor.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, keep the story going.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I used to be more informed on Shakespeare and his writings to know what where his head was at with that.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: And even then, you know, even if you're the most like uh, I guess, Shakespearean enthusiast out there, you still don't know what people think.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but one other fun little thing that's more modern, of course, is in Game of Thrones, and I wish I remember the exact season.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: That was an earlier season, but King Joffrey, you know, the boy king.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a part where uh someone's kind of heckling him from the crowd.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so he's like, Oh, like come up here, man, you know, like, yeah, yeah.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I remember that.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: And he intentionally like waterboards this man with wine.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, and I remember at the time I was watching it, it was Robbie, and he's like, Oh, could you imagine?
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think they ever did anything like that?
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Well, there is a rumor that someone was drowned with wine.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and there's so many parallels.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: We mentioned it earlier between Game of Thrones and the all the wars of roses.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I do think that there's little things throughout that are trickles of history from this this period.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, obviously, just the names alone of of the families say them for me because I come up in Game of Thrones.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um Lannisters.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Lannisters and uh um, I mean, there's stuff, there's a bunch of families that emerge in Game of Thrones.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but you have uh but isn't there one that sounds like your that's the one stark York like Lannister.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I was I knew I was gonna butcher if I tried to do it on my own.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, come on, come on, come on, come on.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: I know you know it better than I do.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, I actually I need to I need to read the books of Game of Thrones because I've only seen the show and all the spin-off shows, which I love.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um House of Dragons, my favorite, I think.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: But um anyway, I digress.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get into that in later episodes.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh well, good kickoff to season eight.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good one.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, welcome back.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I got my sparkling water, it's empty though.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's extra bad luck.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Elizabeth, drink your mulesy wine.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: Is it sweet and from Greece?
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, this is the finest Creech wine, Elizabeth.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: Any final words?
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: Not today.