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When Your Wounds Become Your Identity | Derwin Gray · Future Christian

• 0:00
  Martha Tatarnic: This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the future of the church.
• 1:34
  Loren Richmond Jr: This is Lauren Richmond Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined today by I'll give you your full titles to
• 1:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: begin, Dr. Derwin Gray. Hello, welcome to the show.
• 1:42
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Hey, thanks, Loren I was I'm honored to be with you and looking forward to connecting with your audience.
• 1:48
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, I'm glad to have this conversation. Do you want to share just a bit about your faith background, what
• 1:52
  Loren Richmond Jr: that looked like in the past and what that looks like today?
• 1:56
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah, so I grew up in San Antonio, Texas. my mom was seventeen when I was born, my dad was
• 2:03
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: nineteen. My grandmother kinda had a Jehovah's Witness background a little bit, but I think when I was about nine,
• 2:10
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: they kicked her out for smoking and cussing. And so she kinda like made kind of like her quasi-one thing.
• 2:17
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: But you know, we didn't grow up praying together, we didn't go to a house of worship together, didn't read
• 2:24
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the Bible together. there was like God awareness, but more in like a a good luck charm or rabbit's foot,
• 2:31
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: you know. but the human heart's gonna worship something. And worship is simply where do I find love,
• 2:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 2:39
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: identity, worth, and purpose. And so for me, that was football. Growing up in Texas, football is just what we
• 2:44
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: did. And so I recognized pretty early
• 2:50
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 2:50
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: that football could be a way for me to get out of my environment. And so I worked hard. I
• 2:56
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: loved it. I enjoyed it. It was like my sanctuary. My coaches were my priests. The the the crowd was
• 3:02
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the you know the congregation. And so I ended up accepting a football scholarship to Brigham Young University, which looking
• 3:08
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: back was genius of God to place me in a LDS Mormon context. But met my wife as a freshman
• 3:14
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: we got married in college and Had a great career, got drafted to the NFL, and that would have been
• 3:20
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: my heaven. Like, okay, I got the money, I got the fame, I got the career, I got the girl.
• 3:26
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And after three years, man, it was just it was empty. and here's what I mean. the money could not
• 3:32
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: heal the broken parts of me or my family. The fame could not help me get over low self-esteem. I
• 3:38
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: knew ultimately the fans didn't really love me. they love what I could do. If I played good, they cheered.
• 3:44
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: If I played bad,
• 3:51
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 3:51
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: they booed. And so ultimately I
• 3:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm.
• 3:54
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: was looking I was looking for love, but it couldn't be found in the Plaza people, couldn't be found in
• 4:00
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: my career. There were things I needed to get over morally. I I wouldn't know what a forgiveness was, but
• 4:06
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I knew there was something. But I had a a teammate named Steve Grant, but his nickname was the Naked
• 4:13
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Preacher because every day after practice he'd take a shower. He'd dry off, he'd wrap a towel around his waist.
• 4:19
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And then he'd ask my teammates, Do you know Jesus? And so, like most people who don't know Jesus, I
• 4:25
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: said, I'm a good person. And he said, Well, good compared to who? Yeah.
• 4:32
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 4:33
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And he goes, Well, our comparison is not with other
• 4:34
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 4:35
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: people, because that would make you judgmental. Our comparison is actually with God Himself. And so Jesus came to be
• 4:42
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the standard of good for us. And so ultimately It was a five-year process of us having conversations. And on
• 4:49
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: August 2nd, 1997, I was in a small dorm room, Anderson, Indiana, Anderson University. We were in training camp. And
• 4:56
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: called my wife on the phone and I said, I want to be more committed to you, and I want
• 5:03
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: to be committed to Jesus. And that's when I was born again. Like there was a physical, bodily act. Like
• 5:11
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I felt myself change. And for three nights, I just I just wept. And I wept with the thought of
• 5:18
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: how could somebody like Jesus love somebody like me? Now I know all Jesus has is somebody's like me, sinners
• 5:25
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: in need of God's grace. And so ever since I met him, we have continued to to grow and it's
• 5:32
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: been beautiful.
• 5:40
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, that's awesome. How did you get then into ministry? What was your calling to to to ministry like?
• 5:47
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah. Yeah, well, so I like to say God set us up. Neither my wife nor I ever
• 5:54
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 5:54
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: had any visions of doing ministry. She grew up unchurched. I grew up unchurched. She came to faith about six
• 5:59
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: months before me. In nineteen ninety-eight I signed as a free agent to play with the Carolina Panthers. And so
• 6:05
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I thought, okay, I'll come to the Panthers, play four more years, make it a good ten, and be done.
• 6:11
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Well, I end up getting hurt. And so while I'm injured, all I can do is study the Bible and
• 6:17
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: rehab my need. So I was reading the Bible for hours, and I'm talking like four, five, six hours a
• 6:23
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: day. And everything I was learning, I was able to communicate it. And other Christians would say, Man, how how
• 6:29
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: do you make difficult concepts easy to understand? I was like, I don't know what you mean. I said, the
• 6:34
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: only thing I know is this is if Jesus can love me and forgive me and change me. He can
• 6:40
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: do that for everybody. And so I want everybody to know. And going into the 1999 season, both my wife
• 6:46
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and I just felt like, you know, it's time to do something else. But we didn't know what it was.
• 6:52
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: So I grew up as a compulsive stutterer. And so being a preacher was never on the table. But in
• 6:58
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the fall of 1999, I got invited
• 7:04
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 7:04
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: to go speak at a youth event. And I remember being in a shower and I was just Arguing with
• 7:09
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: God and crying, saying, why would you want them to invite me to go speak? I'm a stutterer, you know
• 7:15
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the pain, you know how hard it is. And I didn't hear an audible voice, but I just sense God
• 7:21
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: saying, If I can raise my son from the dead, I can raise your tongue to talk. But in order
• 7:27
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: to see this, you have to go by faith. So you have to go first, then you'll see it.
• 7:33
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 7:34
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And so, man, we drove down to Columbia, South Carolina, myself. My wife, our daughter was like four years old
• 7:39
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: at the time, three years old. And I had note cards in my pocket and I shared the story of
• 7:44
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the naked preacher, I shared the story of the cross, and I gave the world's worst invitation for people to
• 7:49
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: receive Christ, and hundreds stood up to receive Christ. And then the next day people start calling me, and then
• 7:55
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the next day people start calling me. And after about a year, both my wife and I said, Wow, I
• 8:00
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: think this is what God wants us to do. And then people said, You should go to cemetery. And I'm
• 8:05
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: like, why should I go to cemetery? They said, No, go to seminary. I was like, What is seminary?
• 8:11
  Loren Richmond Jr: Ha ha.
• 8:11
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: They're like, Well, that's where people go to study the Bible. I'm like, That sounds
• 8:14
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 8:15
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: good. And so for about five years, I was an itinerant evangelist, and my wife would organize things. We would
• 8:22
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: serve in our local church. But then in 2005, that's when God birthed in our hearts to plant Transformation Church.
• 8:30
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: We had a Conviction that the New Testament church of the Apostle Paul and the Apostles was a multi-ethnic church,
• 8:37
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Jews and Gentiles, united through the work of Jesus, filled by the Spirit, to take the gospel to the nations.
• 8:45
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And we couldn't understand why the American church was so segregated and everybody was okay with it. And so in
• 8:53
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: 2010, we planted Transformation Church and 6,000 or and and 16 years later there are thousands and thousands of people
• 9:00
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and global influence and God is doing incredible things. And so yeah, so I like to say God tricked us
• 9:08
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: in the ministry 'cause we had no idea. We just followed him as close as we could.
• 9:16
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Thanks for sharing all that. You know, I I gotta say, I think you're my first guest who I've
• 9:20
  Loren Richmond Jr: been able to look up on ProFootballreference dot com, for instance. you've obviously seen
• 9:25
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: There.
• 9:28
  Loren Richmond Jr: like you've obviously seen plenty of highs and I'm sure some lows too throughout both your NFL career and then
• 9:35
  Loren Richmond Jr: your ministry career. What is something that's kept you kept you on the right, you know, kept you close to
• 9:42
  Loren Richmond Jr: God, kept you from Getting pulled away from temptation or distraction, what have you.
• 9:50
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah, you you know, Lauren, that's a that's a hard, hard question for me to answer because I don't know
• 9:57
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: anything more lovely than Jesus. There's no one more more beautiful than him. There's no one more
• 10:04
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm.
• 10:05
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: satisfying than than him.
• 10:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 10:08
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I think one of the blessings of coming to Jesus in my twenties is there are a lot of followers
• 10:17
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: of Jesus. Who follow Jesus in what I call sin management mode. So it's like Jesus died for me.
• 10:26
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 10:27
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: okay, so now my goal is to manage my sin so that I won't make him angry or I can
• 10:34
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: do better. And like the approach is all wrong. the goal is not to wake up to go, how can
• 10:42
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I not sin today? Respectfully, a Muslim can do that, a Hindu can do that, any world religion can do
• 10:50
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: that. As followers of Jesus, we have the privilege of waking up and thinking, in light of God's mercy, how
• 10:57
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: do I become a living sacrifice? How do I think about the multitude of ways in which he has forgiven
• 11:05
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: me, declared me righteous, redeemed me, chose me, was merciful to me, was gracious to me, was kind to me,
• 11:13
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: fills me with his spirit that he calls me the Father Son, that I can say Abba, that I can
• 11:21
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: approach the throne of grace and mercy. Romans 6:11 is one of the most powerful verses in. In my life,
• 11:28
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and I think in all the New Testament, Paul says this count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God
• 11:36
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: in Christ. Counting yourself dead to sin doesn't mean you don't have temptation. Counting yourself dead to sin means the
• 11:44
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: old life of Adam has been crucified and buried with Jesus, and now you live in resurrection life. So when
• 11:52
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: temptation comes, don't fight temptation. Set your mind on Jesus. Why fight a dead man? And I tell people, they're
• 11:59
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: like, but what do you what do you mean? Here's what I mean. Why am I gonna think about not
• 12:07
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: sinning when I can think about the glories of Jesus? Romans 13, 14 calls that putting on the Lord Jesus
• 12:15
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and you will not satisfy the desires of your flesh. Galatians 5:16 says, walk in the
• 12:23
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 12:23
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: spirit and you won't satisfy the desires of the flesh. I'm gonna spend the rest of my life, the books
• 12:29
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I write, the sermons I preach. Getting people to understand the goal of following Jesus is not behavior modification, it
• 12:35
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: is living from the life of another.
• 12:41
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 12:42
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Jesus gave his life to you to give his life, Jesus gave his life for you to give his life
• 12:47
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: to you, to live his life through you. And obedience is the overflow of abiding in Christ. And so it's
• 12:52
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: not today I'm gonna fight sin. It's no, I'm gonna worship and I'm gonna praise. And I'd even think about
• 12:57
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: sin.
• 13:02
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, you already we got a great message right there, man. That's good stuff. Thanks for sharing all that.
• 13:06
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: That that that is my number one go-to in pastoral counseling. People come to me and they're like, Man, I
• 13:10
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: got this problem, I got this problem. And and
• 13:15
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 13:15
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I said, I said, okay, so well, what are you doing? And they go, Well, I'm trying to do this
• 13:17
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and I'm trying to do this and I'm trying to do this. And I say, Stop. That's your problem. It's
• 13:20
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: not called Aya Anity. It's called
• 13:23
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:26
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Christianity. Not once have you mentioned the name of Jesus. Not once have you mentioned the blood of Jesus. Not
• 13:31
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: once. Have you mentioned the power of the Holy Spirit? Not once have you mentioned Abba, your father. Not once
• 13:36
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: have you mentioned your identity in Christ, and you wonder why you're stuck in sin. But sadly, Lauren, in my
• 13:41
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: 30
• 13:47
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 13:47
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: years of walking with Jesus, that's 90% of followers of Christ. And so my writing, my preaching is to help
• 13:54
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: set people free through the redeeming work of Christ. Nothing is greater than. Then Christ for you, Christ in you,
• 14:02
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Christ through you. And our only job is faith, to trust them to do it.
• 14:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's good stuff. Well, speaking of writing, we're here to talk to Derwin about his forthcoming
• 14:15
  Loren Richmond Jr: book. Probably be out by time this well, we'll see. coming out in September. So should be available for pre-order
• 14:20
  Loren Richmond Jr: at minimum, right? It's time to heal. So
• 14:25
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah.
• 14:27
  Loren Richmond Jr: the real controversial question I gotta ask you though, before we get into the nitty-gritty of this book, whether this
• 14:35
  Loren Richmond Jr: conversation will continue. I love talking sports with guests occasionally. Russell Wilson, Hall of Fame or not.
• 14:44
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Let me say this. This is what I love about Russell Wilson. for years I've done chapels for NFL teams.
• 14:51
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And I did the Seattle Seahawks and they had this young quarterback who started out at NC State, but the
• 14:59
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: head coach at NC State said, Don't come back. So he had to be off cast to Wisconsin.
• 15:07
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 15:07
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: He plays good. And Seattle drafts him. So is this this young guy after Chapel's like, hey man, I love
• 15:15
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the message. And my son at the time, Jeremiah, was with me and he was a little guy. He was
• 15:23
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: probably 12. And Russell Wilson spent 45 minutes pouring into my son, Jeremiah. He had a game the next day.
• 15:32
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And he spent 45 minutes sharing his testimony with my son, sharing how hard it was when his dad died,
• 15:40
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: sharing how difficult it was when he had to leave NC State and he didn't want to to go to
• 15:49
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: a West content. So I'm always going to be a Russell Wilson fan. And I do believe Russell Wilson legitimately
• 15:57
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: believes Russell Wilson should be in the Hall of Fame based on his. Body of work.
• 16:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: All right, we can continue then this podcast. I'm glad to hear it. I'm glad to hear it. Well, what
• 16:12
  Loren Richmond Jr: let's start with this. what prompted you to be like, I need to write a book on this topic of
• 16:18
  Loren Richmond Jr: healing and restoring what life has shattered?
• 16:24
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah, so the reason why I wrote It's Time to Heal, four God given steps to restore what life has
• 16:31
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: shattered, is because one, about eight years ago, I began to notice something not only in our own church but
• 16:39
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: online and even places where I would go and speak, and people I would come in contact with who followed
• 16:47
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Jesus is they seem to be stuck on a cul-de-sac of hurt. Stuck. On a cul-de-sac of woundedness. It
• 16:55
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 16:56
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: was this person has done this to me, this person has done this to me. And sometimes it would even
• 17:02
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: be in their social media bio how they'd been hooked wounded, how they'd been hurt. And so with any form
• 17:09
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: of hurt, there's always empathy, there's always sympathy, there's always I'm with you. But I began to see people, A,
• 17:16
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: make their wound, their identity. B, give up trying to heal because everything they tried didn't work. And then the
• 17:23
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: other reason I wrote the book is because of my life. one of the things that I talk about in
• 17:30
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: its time to heal is something that psychologists call post traumatic growth. So we know that trauma, the origin of
• 17:37
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the word trauma is the Greek word for wound, and we know that trauma gets in your nervous system, your
• 17:44
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: body keeps score.
• 17:51
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 17:52
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Like like it it it we we have to allow truth to transform us and we need skilled people to
• 17:58
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: help us. And so I've seen in my own life how my trauma, God has used not that he caused
• 18:05
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the trauma, God has used the trauma as a trampoline to help me grow. Like so, for example, one of
• 18:12
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the one of the things that I share in the book is You know, I experienced abuse as a little
• 18:18
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: boy. And you don't really know how to cope with it, you don't know how to deal with it. And
• 18:25
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: so for me, the way I dealt with it is well, don't think about it. And of course, you you
• 18:32
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: know, anything that we suppress will eventually
• 18:39
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right.
• 18:40
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: depress us. And so no matter how much I succeeded, I still
• 18:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 18:44
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: felt less than that wound of violation, and so for years. Before I met Christ, that wound was still defining
• 18:50
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: me, and at times it would take the steering wheel of my life. But when I met Jesus, When I
• 18:57
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: met Jesus, I was at full-blown performance-based living. What everything I did had a scorecard. And when I met Jesus,
• 19:04
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: he said, rip up your scorecard because it's not high enough. It's not great enough. But I took the test
• 19:10
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: for you. I lived a sinless life for you. On the cross, I exchanged your unrighteousness for my righteousness. And
• 19:17
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: when I rose again, I now rose and live in you. And all that's true of me and my humanity
• 19:24
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: has been given to you as a gift. And so, as a football player, you're always taught, memorize the playbook.
• 19:31
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And when I learned that, now remember, I didn't grow up in church, so I didn't have a lot of
• 19:37
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: stuff to fight through. I just had grace. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? This is the greatest thing
• 19:44
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I've ever heard. And so I applied the principles of a football player. Believe this, not what you feel, believe
• 19:51
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the truth. Lauren, I had no idea.
• 19:58
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 19:59
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I was doing cognitive behavioral therapy. I was identifying lies and believing
• 20:04
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hm.
• 20:05
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: truth. I would write down what the lie is, and then I would write God's truth, and then I would
• 20:07
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: believe it. Lauren, Lauren, I had no
• 20:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, it's good. It's good.
• 20:13
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: idea. I was doing neuroplasticity before it became a thing. I had no idea that in our brains, when we
• 20:20
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: have thoughts, we're literally shaping pathways in our brains. And so as I was learning truth. The old
• 20:28
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 20:29
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: pathways were being closed, and I was walking down new pathways, and that began to change the tenderness of my
• 20:35
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: heart the way I saw myself. And so that's why I wrote the book. And those are some of the
• 20:41
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: stories that I share in it. And so psychologists call it cognitive behavioral therapy. What's the lie? Here's the truth.
• 20:47
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Replace it. I call it Christ's
• 20:54
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right.
• 20:55
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: behavioral therapy. What's the lie? And we know who the father of lies is, Satan, and what's the truth? And
• 20:58
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the truth does what? Sets
• 21:02
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yep.
• 21:03
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: you free. And so you learn how to memorize, you learn
• 21:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 21:06
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: how to soak yourself in scripture. And what you're doing is what the Apostle Paul says. Be transformed by the
• 21:13
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: renewing of your mind. I don't think the Apostle Paul knew about neuroplasticity, but God did.
• 21:21
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I I wanna ask you about this then. we live you know, we live in then
• 21:26
  Loren Richmond Jr: you've kind of addressed it already, but we live in a culture where woundedness, where folks d ha dealing with
• 21:32
  Loren Richmond Jr: their pain or kinda I don't want to say like identifying with our pain almost more than their healing is
• 21:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: is culturally valued. And I'm just kind of
• 21:44
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah. Yeah.
• 21:46
  Loren Richmond Jr: curious, like what do you think that's about? Like, where did that come from?
• 21:50
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah. So I think the first thing that we need to do, Lauren, is before we get to where does
• 21:55
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: that come from, I think as Paul says in Galatians 6 2, let's carry one another's burdens. let's say, you
• 22:00
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: know what?
• 22:05
  Loren Richmond Jr: Sure. Yeah.
• 22:06
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I'm so sad this happened to you. one of the things that I do when it's time to heal
• 22:12
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 22:13
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: is I have a four step framework. And the first one is honest about what happened. God cannot heal what
• 22:17
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: we will
• 22:21
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 22:21
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: not reveal. And so I think it's good that people are being honest about what happened and we're to have
• 22:28
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: compassion. We are to have empathy. We are to say, Man, I am so sorry that happened. I think that's
• 22:36
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: a good thing.
• 22:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 22:45
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I think where it becomes a problem is. If we're unhealthy, all of a sudden, I'm getting more attention than
• 22:52
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I've ever gotten before because of my wound. And it's like, well, hmm,
• 23:00
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm.
• 23:02
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: let me kind of stay here then. Because I'm getting validation, I'm getting appreciation, people are noticing me. And those
• 23:08
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: are good things. To be okay, to not be okay is okay, but to not want to be okay is
• 23:14
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: not okay. I start the book out with Jesus
• 23:21
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 23:21
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: in John 5:6. The man at the pool of Bethesda, and he says, Do you want to be well? And
• 23:25
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: so Secondly,
• 23:30
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 23:31
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: secondly, I think that culturally there's some things that's happened, and I really want to massage this. So, my generation,
• 23:38
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Gen X, we were basically feral cats. we raised ourselves, we cooked for ourselves. By the time I was 10,
• 23:46
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I could ride the bus across town. In fifth grade, I was home alone, cooking eggs for myself. I spilled
• 23:54
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: hot grease on my foot. By the eight, by eight, by 13, I was a full adult doing everything that
• 24:02
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I needed to do. You were taught, don't cry, suck it up, get through it. If my coaches coached kids
• 24:10
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: today the way they coach me, they'd probably be in jail. You can't yell at kids. And so
• 24:18
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:21
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: there are some positive things. You know, we drank. out of a water
• 24:25
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right.
• 24:26
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: hose connected to a house, right? So the positive is we had some really
• 24:29
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yes. Did that.
• 24:32
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: we had some really, really good resiliency. The negative is we didn't know how to process
• 24:37
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 24:38
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: pain. And so I think there's been a I think there's
• 24:41
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yep.
• 24:43
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: been an overshift to where particularly with millennials, the overshift has turned into like parents were hovering around everything. You
• 24:48
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: know, I was When I was in school, teachers could paddle you on the butt as well as the hands.
• 24:54
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Now you can't even discipline kids, right? I'm not talking about putting your hands on them. I don't believe in
• 25:00
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: that. So I think culturally,
• 25:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right.
• 25:07
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: culturally, we swung too far, and it's kind of like, wait a minute, something's bad's happening? That's not supposed to
• 25:14
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: ha happen. And I think that social media has also contributed to. A form of well, this is a way
• 25:22
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: for me to be seen. That's not everybody, of course.
• 25:30
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Right.
• 25:32
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I am I am grateful for therapy. I think it's important. Therapy can tell you why you are, and I
• 25:38
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: think the gospel can transform you to who you can become, and we need both. But we don't want our
• 25:45
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: wound to be our identity. We want the wounds of Christ to be our identity. That I am more than
• 25:51
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: a conqueror in him who loves me. That doesn't mean we don't have bad days. That doesn't mean we don't
• 25:58
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: fall down. That doesn't mean we don't have intrusive thought. What it means is I know nothing can take me
• 26:04
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: from Christ. Nothing can separate me from his love. He is for me. He is with me. And the Holy
• 26:11
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Spirit's presence and power guides me.
• 26:18
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, that's good stuff. It's good stuff right there. I want to ask you this, leaning into this, this, this,
• 26:24
  Loren Richmond Jr: this challenge. You know, you've been in ministry and church leadership a long time. You know, over the last decade
• 26:30
  Loren Richmond Jr: plus, certainly we've seen the the you know, the hashtag church to people acknowledging rightly so the hurt that church
• 26:36
  Loren Richmond Jr: has caused. but I wonder, like, how have you addressed Have you dealt with, have you led within your own
• 26:42
  Loren Richmond Jr: church and and and
• 26:48
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah.
• 26:49
  Loren Richmond Jr: counseled pr folks in your church to I don't know, I'm not trying to ask this well, but you know,
• 26:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: there's certainly church
• 26:57
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah.
• 26:57
  Loren Richmond Jr: hurt and then there's a there's a time that I think to acknowledge that also like all institutions, all human
• 27:00
  Loren Richmond Jr: institutions
• 27:04
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah.
• 27:05
  Loren Richmond Jr: hurt people because we're all sinners, right? So
• 27:07
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah. Yeah.
• 27:09
  Loren Richmond Jr: how do you work through that as a pastor and a leader?
• 27:11
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah. I think the first thing is we need to categorize quote unquote church hurt. So sexual abuse and the
• 27:18
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: heinous sexual abuse cover-ups we've seen,
• 27:25
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 27:26
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: bullying and intimidating leadership.
• 27:28
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 27:30
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I want pastors like that, I want them out and repentant to get healthy. and sadly, we
• 27:36
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yep.
• 27:38
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: have seen institutional sexual cover-ups. We've seen institutional poor ugly leadership. So I stand with those who have been wounded
• 27:47
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and I say, I'm with you in this fight. you know I want healthy leaders to shepherd healthy flocks. And
• 27:56
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and and so when someone has gone through that type of religious trauma, then yeah, like That's a legitimate beef.
• 28:06
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And I support my brothers and sisters who have experienced that. There has been just awful things, and it seems
• 28:15
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: like it just continues and continues, and my heart absolutely breaks. And I want to be a part of the
• 28:24
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: solution. So that's the first tier. That is like, yes. Like that is an issue. Now I
• 28:34
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 28:35
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: wanna I want to talk about the second tier of. People in the sanctification process who are imperfect. You know,
• 28:42
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: hey you said this to me,
• 28:50
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hm.
• 28:50
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: this hurt me, we broke fellowship, hey, I'm no longer on church staff, I'm hurt. Now that's a whole different
• 28:57
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: category than the first category that I discuss. The secondary category of
• 29:05
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 29:06
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: you know, listen, as a pastor. The most disrespected I have ever felt and talked down to has been since
• 29:12
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I've been a local church pastor. There have been days
• 29:19
  Loren Richmond Jr: Well.
• 29:20
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: where I come home and I look at my wife and I'm like, I'm done. I had a old I
• 29:23
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: had an old
• 29:27
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 29:28
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: pastor tell me years ago, he goes, just remember, son, sheep bite. And as a shepherd, you're gonna get bit.
• 29:32
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And I'm sure that there are
• 29:37
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 29:39
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: probably pe peop people who will say the same thing but about me. But I know this, I have never
• 29:47
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: intentionally ever wounded anyone, and I've always tried to lead with integrity and love and compassion. I've always tried to
• 29:56
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: be a peacemaker. And so I think as followers of Jesus, we need to learn how number one to forgive
• 30:04
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: each other. Number two, we have to learn how to engage conflict in the gospel.
• 30:13
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 30:13
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And so that's one of the things that I'm trying to take teet teach our church constantly is how to
• 30:19
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: emotionally regulate and have adult conversations
• 30:25
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 30:25
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: in conflict. So I I think what's important for people to understand is when you say yes to Jesus as
• 30:32
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Savior, we are born again, the Spirit of God enters us, Jesus enters us, the Holy Spirit's enter us, the
• 30:40
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: old life of Adam is gone, we are a new creation. But it takes a lifetime to learn how to
• 30:47
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: live out this newness. And in the midst of that lifetime, we're gonna bump and we're gonna collide. And so
• 30:55
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: humility is, hey, I'm sorry. but also remember we come into the faith and we engage with each other, and
• 31:02
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: we may be people pleasers, we may have mental health issues, we may have all types of wounds, and that's
• 31:10
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: why the church, in many ways, should be a hospital. Where we're helping each other heal. Ephesians 4, where Paul
• 31:17
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: talks about be patient and forgive one another as Christ has forgiven you. intrinsic to how God has wired me
• 31:25
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: as a shepherd and as a person, I love to see reconciliation and I love to see walls broken down,
• 31:32
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and I love to see people walk in unity and healing. Now, thirdly. We have to be really clear in
• 31:40
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: this church is people, not building. So technically, someone in the church or some people in the church wounded me.
• 31:47
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: If they intentionally wounded you,
• 31:55
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right. Right.
• 31:58
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: that's a problem. But if it's the conflict and friction of life, now I will say this, and I think
• 32:04
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: this is important. If you're in a local church congregation and it is abusive, manipulative relationship. And you're being hurt,
• 32:10
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: then you need to get somewhere safe. Yeah, but but it it's it's messy and Lauren and to my new
• 32:17
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: friends listening, whenever I get discouraged about the American church, all I do is read First Corinthians, and then I
• 32:23
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: feel pretty good about us.
• 32:30
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 32:30
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: The church of the church you know, if if if if the Lord Jesus came back and
• 32:35
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:36
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: said, Derwin, I'm gonna teleport you in time and you're gonna be at the church in Corinthians with Paul. I'm
• 32:42
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: gonna say, Lori, can you give me a different assignment please? Because I don't know if I can handle these
• 32:49
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: people's decisions.
• 32:56
  Loren Richmond Jr: You know, I was just reading just reading First Corinthians four and I swear that Paul could have written that
• 33:00
  Loren Richmond Jr: chapter at least to the American church and it all fits, man, it all fits.
• 33:05
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yes. Yes, we are we are an unsanctified mess, but we're God's mess. We're his bride. And I want to
• 33:13
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: encourage people who have gone through woundedness and maybe you have some trauma, please let someone help you work through
• 33:22
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: it. because I can unequivocally say this: Yes, a few people in the church have hurt me, but more people
• 33:31
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: in the church have blessed me. And help me. And I'm grateful for the church and I love Jesus' church.
• 33:40
  Loren Richmond Jr: Well, one more question here before we take a break. You know, again, you've been in ministry a long time
• 33:45
  Loren Richmond Jr: and whenever I get a veteran pastor on here, I just wanna like I wanna pick their brains and hear
• 33:51
  Loren Richmond Jr: what kind of wisdom they have for other pastors and leaders. You know, this is a challenging time for our
• 33:56
  Loren Richmond Jr: nation, for for the church in America. Like what do you have, whether it's as a pastor, as a as
• 34:02
  Loren Richmond Jr: an American, like what what do you what would you say to other pastors out there?
• 34:08
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Well, I think if I understand what you're saying, are you talking this in the context of the MAGA phenomenon
• 34:14
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and the political divide that we have, or are you speaking in another context?
• 34:21
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, I mean I think this is what what makes the I'll just lean into this since you're since we're
• 34:27
  Loren Richmond Jr: we're asking. Like I'm I'm thinking about like Ed Stetsurf, right, ha has said recently like the anti woke is
• 34:33
  Loren Richmond Jr: like the new seeker sensitive, you know, that it's it's easier to go like far right to
• 34:39
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I think
• 34:41
  Loren Richmond Jr: to to attract a crowd. And I think similarly
• 34:43
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah.
• 34:43
  Loren Richmond Jr: in other in church contexts, like I know I know of church contexts where it's easy to to become mirrored
• 34:48
  Loren Richmond Jr: with the the Democratic Party to to w attract people. Like how do you encourage
• 34:54
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah. Yeah.
• 34:57
  Loren Richmond Jr: pastors to stay faithful to the gospel?
• 34:59
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So so first Lauren, number number one. A two hundred and fifty year old country called
• 35:06
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the United States of America, which I love, is not the hermeneutical lens in which we view the Bible. That's
• 35:13
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: number one. Too many pastors,
• 35:20
  Loren Richmond Jr: It's good start right there.
• 35:21
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: too many pastors are reading the Bible through this baby country called America. That is a hermeneutical era. Number two,
• 35:28
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: you create a new Galatian heresy when you say you have to vote this way in order to be saved.
• 35:36
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: So most followers of Jesus
• 35:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm. Yeah.
• 35:46
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: from the inception of the church to now, overwhelmingly, 99.9% of them have never voted Democrat or Republican. Democracy is
• 35:55
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: relatively new phenomenon on the face of the earth. And so are you telling me my friends in Norway
• 36:04
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 36:05
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: who follow Jesus aren't saved because they didn't vote MAGA? Are you telling me my friends in communist China? Are
• 36:12
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: you telling me the believers in Iran under Islamic Sharia law aren't saved because they didn't vote a certain way?
• 36:19
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: it is, and I'm gonna I'm gonna say something strongly here, it is deeply, deeply demonic. To take the gospel
• 36:26
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and say, well, you're not saved because dot dot dot. Salvation is through Christ alone, by
• 36:34
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm.
• 36:35
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: faith alone, through grace alone. He is the eternal Son of God who incarnated to do a redemptive work to
• 36:41
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: renew all of creation, right? And so that's that's number two. number three, if you fit neatly into any political
• 36:48
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: party, you're in danger. If you fit neatly,
• 36:55
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm. Yeah.
• 36:58
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and and so I think particularly the religious rite, which is morphed into MAGA, has done a great job of
• 37:04
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: discipleship with people because they have basically
• 37:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 37:11
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: leveled it down to like there's only a few sins. Trans LGBTQ, abortion, which I'm for traditional marriage, I believe,
• 37:20
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: God created man and w one man, I believe in life in the womb, but man, what about greed? Like
• 37:29
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: what up like what about covering up the Epstein file, human trafficking? Like, there's a whole litany of sins.
• 37:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:40
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And so, you know, I I think it's important for us to make sure that we're representing the kingdom of
• 37:45
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: God and This whole culture war thing is really bizarre to me because as I read Jesus in Matthew 11,
• 37:51
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: 19, it said, The Son of Man came eating and drinking. He was called a glutton and he was a
• 37:57
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: friend to sinners. So how in the world am I going to reach
• 38:03
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Sinners.
• 38:05
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: somebody if I'm angry with them? So America is a constitutional republic. That expresses itself in a democracy. It is
• 38:13
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: not a theocracy. A theocracy is what you have in Islamic Middle Eastern countries. We don't want that in America.
• 38:21
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: America believes in religious freedom. So therefore, we're free to express what we believe. And in a constitutional republic, there's
• 38:30
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: a pluralistic view of beliefs. When you try to get them the government To mandate your religion, be careful, because
• 38:38
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: your type of religion may be the one mandated out. That's not what America stands for. The government should produce
• 38:46
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: religious
• 38:55
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right. Right.
• 38:57
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: freedom. But when the church believes it's the government's job, whether Democratic or Republican or MAGA to implement Christianity, we
• 39:04
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: have strayed from a constitutional republic and we are getting into a theocracy, and America is not a theocracy. The
• 39:11
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: church is a global multi-ethnic movement on mission with Jesus to be salt and light wherever we are. Now, now
• 39:18
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Laura,
• 39:25
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I appreciate I appreciate that.
• 39:29
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and let me add at this, Laura. What I just said, for a lot of pastors, if they say what
• 39:35
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I just said, they would get fired the next day. And and and what I and what
• 39:41
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:42
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I would and what I would say to them is one day you're gonna have to face Jesus. And are
• 39:45
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: you gonna face him and
• 39:49
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm.
• 39:50
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: say, hey, you know what? I was afraid. I didn't want to disciple these people. I didn't want to challenge
• 39:55
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: these people. So I didn't say anything. Who would have ever thought that a country like ours, our great beautiful
• 40:00
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: nation, that went to Nazi Germany to defeat
• 40:05
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 40:06
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Nazis would be okay with the rise of Nazism in the far-right political party?
• 40:13
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 40:13
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: It i it is it is utterly asinine. I'm s I'm so old I can remember when my evangelical kindren
• 40:20
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: would say a politician's character matters more than their policies. And then in 2016 that changed.
• 40:28
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 40:31
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Wild.
• 40:32
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, that did change. It's wild. Well, I I appreciate this conversation and I appreciate your passion and your insights
• 40:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: about this. let's move on to some closing questions here. But do you want to recommend again the book is
• 40:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: It's Time to Heal for God given steps to restore what life has shattered, available from Tyndale and I'm sure
• 40:50
  Loren Richmond Jr: wherever books are sold, I can imagine.
• 40:56
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yes.
• 40:57
  Loren Richmond Jr: some closing questions you can take this as seriously or not as you'd like to. The first question we always
• 41:02
  Loren Richmond Jr: ask is if you're Pope for a day, what would you want to do with this day? I gotta ask
• 41:08
  Loren Richmond Jr: this though. I know you've spent some time with not quite a Pope, but certainly a strong figure in the
• 41:13
  Loren Richmond Jr: Christian tradition worldwide. N T Wright. What were your th what what was your takeaway from N T right?
• 41:19
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Well, first of all, Tom, he doesn't let me call him into right. He's like, call me Tom. Tom is
• 41:25
  Loren Richmond Jr: Okay.
• 41:26
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: hilarious. my gosh, he is so funny. secondly, secondly, he's very humble and curious. And so, you know, he grew
• 41:32
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: up Anglican.
• 41:39
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hm.
• 41:40
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: There's an Anglican church on every block when he grew up as a kid, and so he was like, So
• 41:49
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: tell me about church planting and And tell me about like these multi-site campuses. Tell me about these things. And
• 41:58
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: so he is a humble man, a wise man that deeply loves Jesus. And I don't know anybody living today
• 42:07
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: who has a grasp of first century, second temple Jewish understanding of the faith like N. T. Wright. And I
• 42:16
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: got my doctoral work in that discipline as well. He is a a humble, curious, good, loving man and hilarious.
• 42:25
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Well yeah. Yeah. Well thanks for sharing that. Do you have a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want
• 42:30
  Loren Richmond Jr: to meet or bring back to life?
• 42:35
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Wow gosh, that's a hard one and it changes on the day. you know what I would like to do?
• 42:41
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I would like to hang out with John Wesley for a day. And what I would talk to Wesley
• 42:48
  Loren Richmond Jr: Okay, yeah.
• 42:51
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: John Wesley about is is I would say, you know, John, help me understand like how did you have the
• 42:57
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: courage to get kicked out of the Anglican church? Come back to America, the place where you bombed as a
• 43:04
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: missionary. But then when all of your
• 43:11
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 43:12
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: contemporaries were pro-slavery of black people, you were an abolitionist. Man, brother, how did you have that courage? Tell me
• 43:19
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: about that. he really inspires me because not only did he preach the gospel. But he also knew that the
• 43:27
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: end goal of the gospel was holy love. Holiness is a person that loves God with all their heart, mind,
• 43:35
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: soul, and strength, loved their neighbors,
• 43:43
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 43:45
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: they love themselves. He opened up orphanages, he fed the hungry, he hung out with the poor. And so yeah,
• 43:51
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I'm a huge John Wesley fan. I would I would like to hang out with Wesley and just ask him:
• 43:57
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: how do you have that courage? Because there's some days I get emails and I want to cry.
• 44:04
  Loren Richmond Jr: Well, I've been reading a lot of Wesleyan theology, so I'm I'm down with you here. what do you think
• 44:08
  Loren Richmond Jr: history will remember from our current time and place?
• 44:13
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: wow, for the church or for just America or both?
• 44:18
  Loren Richmond Jr: I mean I purposely leave it open ended to make it hard on the guests.
• 44:20
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I would I would say you know, twenty twenty seventy, kids are gonna be reading in
• 44:31
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: school about this time in American history where our constitutional republic was hanging in a balance and that Russia did
• 44:42
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: an incredible psychop through propaganda and social media media and oligarchs. but then they're gonna be surprised
• 44:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hm.
• 44:54
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: at the everyday people waking up and saying, no, we want to protect this constitutional republic. I think I think
• 45:05
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: for majority culture evangelicalism, I think it's on its deathbed in many ways. there's, you know, I've been with
• 45:16
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 45:16
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: pe Who are about to die, and they have what's called a death rattle. And I think in many ways,
• 45:23
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: evangelicalism in a majority culture perspective, it's a death rattle. It's trying to preserve and hold on to things that
• 45:30
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: is not the kingdom. It's forming and making people that are not reflecting Jesus. But I think in the midst
• 45:38
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: of this, humbly, respectfully, there are churches like ours who are. Fiercely committed to the gospel, who are fiercely committed
• 45:45
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: to churches that embody the ethnic reconciliation of the kingdom, where evangelism and justice and acts of mercy gather together.
• 45:52
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: And I believe that there are thousands of churches like that in the United States of America. Now, Lauren, you
• 46:00
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: gotta understand, just because a church is well known, that just could mean that they're well funded. That just could
• 46:07
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: mean that they've gotten relationships.
• 46:15
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 46:16
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: There are movements happening all around a country that are going to be leading the way. And I believe it's
• 46:23
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: going to be beautiful. I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be profound what God is
• 46:31
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: going to do. And just in our church in 16 years, we've seen 9,000 people come to Jesus. We've baptized
• 46:39
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: thousands of people. Lauren, we have paid off. Through an investment of $300,000, $63 million of medical debt for people
• 46:47
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: in North and South Carolina. It is eradicated. It is erased. We have a a grocery store where we feed
• 46:55
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: 500 people per month. we have pro-life ministries in the womb. And so I believe that this beautiful Luke 4,
• 47:03
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: 16 through 18 convergence is happening.
• 47:11
  Loren Richmond Jr: Well, that's great to hear. what do you hope then for the future of Christianity?
• 47:17
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah, I think it's I mean people people ask me this question, it's like, Derwin, are you hopeful? And I'm
• 47:22
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: like, you do know that on the third day Jesus of Nazareth walked up out that tomb, right? You do
• 47:27
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: know he's sitting at the right hand of the Father, right? Yeah. And I I'm like
• 47:33
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 47:38
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I'm like, respectfully, what we're going through is nothing compared to the early church. Jesus said, I will build my
• 47:42
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: church and
• 47:46
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 47:46
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: He's going to rule. He's going to reign. The church in the global south is exploding and growing and taking
• 47:49
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the world by storm. And
• 47:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 47:55
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: so I am very hopeful. I am very confident because the God who redeems is still redeeming. The spirit who
• 48:03
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: fills is still filling. And Jesus said, I will build my church. And that's exactly what he's going to do.
• 48:11
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah. Well, share more how people can connect with you, the church, all that stuff.
• 48:18
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah, you know, I would I I would say the first thing is go out and order it's time to
• 48:25
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: heal for God given steps to restore what life has shattered. Go out and get it for friends, read it
• 48:33
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: in a study group, and then go hit me up at Derwinlgray dot com, Derwinlgray dot com and all my
• 48:41
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: social media is there, which is at Derwin L Gray. You can get my sermons, make sure you get It's
• 48:48
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: time to heal. Your support, your early buy-in is essential, but it's going to help you. Instead of transferring hurt,
• 48:56
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: you're going to transfer generational healing as a result of this book.
• 49:04
  Loren Richmond Jr: All right. last question again I gotta ask you what NFL team should we be looking out for here upcoming
• 49:08
  Loren Richmond Jr: season?
• 49:12
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: You know, this is gonna sound like well, he played for the Carolina Panthers. He lives in Carolina, so he's
• 49:18
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: gonna say the Panthers. Well, I am gonna say the Panthers. But here's why, though. Here's why. the general managers
• 49:24
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: for the Panthers, his name is Dan Morgan. he's a part of our church. And I helped lead him to
• 49:30
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the Lord years ago, and so he's worked his way up to become the GM. He was actually at Seattle
• 49:36
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: for a long time, and so Dan is doing a great job. And this will be three years ago. We
• 49:42
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: were at practice, and he said, look, this year we're gonna start out rough. The schedule's tough, but by the
• 49:48
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: end of the year, we're gonna be on a roll. That took place. And then he said, the next year
• 49:54
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: we're going to the playoffs. That took place. He said the third year, Super Bowl. Well, guess what? This is
• 50:00
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: the third year. And so this is so this is what Dan has done.
• 50:07
  Loren Richmond Jr: Okay, okay.
• 50:09
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: so This is what what Dan has reworked the offensive line. We've got three really good running backs. We have
• 50:16
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: some capable receivers. Bryce Young is getting into his groove, but here's what's going to shock the NFL.
• 50:24
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 50:27
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: This defense is going to be nasty. This defense is going to be sick. We got we got two corners.
• 50:34
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: One of them is one of the best in the NFL. The other one, I think, is in the top.
• 50:41
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: 15. we got some good young safeties, but now we got some big old defensive linemen to go with Derrick
• 50:48
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Brown. If Derrick Brown played with any other team, he'd be perennial first team all pro. He is a monster.
• 50:55
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: So this defense, I think, is gonna be in the top 10 in the NFL. And if our running game
• 51:02
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: is top 10 to top 12 in the NFL, look out for us to win 13 games.
• 51:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: Okay, wow, there you have it. I mean, there's not really a dominant team, right? I mean, obviously Green Bay's
• 51:14
  Loren Richmond Jr: gonna be around if the the Eagles for all their dysfunction seem
• 51:19
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Chicago, Chicago.
• 51:20
  Loren Richmond Jr: to be able to Chicago Caleb Williams
• 51:23
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Ravs
• 51:24
  Loren Richmond Jr: taking the next step, right? Rams, yeah, Stafford's old, but he's still got like really I mean, what's his name?
• 51:28
  Loren Richmond Jr: just got traded there, Miles. I mean that's there's they're gonna be
• 51:33
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Who could Miles Garrett? Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, I mean Stafford's old, but Stafford's
• 51:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: Miles Garrett, yeah, yeah.
• 51:40
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: old, but Stafford, with his mind and his arm is a generational talent. I I remember watching him at Georgia,
• 51:47
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 51:48
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: and I told my my wife, I said, the only there's a there's a few men with an arm like
• 51:53
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: his, Dan Marino and Jeff George. I played with Jeff George. I've never seen a human being throw
• 51:58
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 52:00
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: a Football like that's one of most beautiful things you would ever see. Now, don't sleep on the Dallas Cowboys.
• 52:04
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Do not sleep on the Cowboys.
• 52:09
  Loren Richmond Jr: here we go.
• 52:10
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: I know, and and tr trust me, I I grew up a Cowboys fan. I wanted to play for the
• 52:15
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Cowboys. They didn't draft me. But I enjoy their misery personally. But as someone who loves the game and tries
• 52:20
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: to be objective, the Cowboys are gonna be good this year.
• 52:26
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Well that might be the most controversial thing you say in this entire podcast. So
• 52:34
  Dr. Derwin L. Gray: Yeah.
• 52:36
  Loren Richmond Jr: well, thank you so much for your time. we always leave folks with a word of peace, so may God's
• 52:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: peace be with you. All right, thanks for your time.