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#595 Jason Flom with Kristine Bunch · Wrongful Conviction

0:00
Speaker 1: What you're about to hear is an update to an
0:02
Speaker 1: episode we recorded with Christine Bunch in 2020. Christine spent
0:08
Speaker 1: 17 long, miserable years in prison after she was wrongfully
0:11
Speaker 1: convicted of setting a fire that killed her three-year-old son, Anthony.
0:15
Speaker 1: A conviction that was based on junk fire science and
0:19
Speaker 1: evidence that was later shown to be both false and misleading. Now,
0:25
Speaker 1: since getting out, Christine has... Well, she's turned tragedy into triumph.
0:31
Speaker 1: She's devoted her life to making sure that other innocent
0:34
Speaker 1: people don't suffer the same way that she did. She's
0:38
Speaker 1: been advocating for compensation for exonerees. She's helped to train
0:42
Speaker 1: law enforcement. She's supported people coming home from prison. And
0:46
Speaker 1: she's worked alongside innocence organizations across the country. And now
0:51
Speaker 1: she's taking that work even further. Earlier this year, Christine
0:56
Speaker 1: became the first ever director of the Indiana Innocence Project,
1:00
Speaker 1: an organization that she actually helped create. That's right. The
1:03
Speaker 1: same woman who once had to fight for almost two
1:07
Speaker 1: decades to convince the justice system of her own actual
1:10
Speaker 1: innocence is now leading an organization dedicated to finding innocent
1:15
Speaker 1: people still behind bars, bringing them home, and helping them
1:20
Speaker 1: to rebuild their lives. A true hero's journey. And now,
1:25
Speaker 1: Here's my conversation with Christine Bunch. Welcome back to Wrongful
1:34
Speaker 1: Conviction with Jason Flom.
1:36
Speaker 2: That's me, of course. And today you're going to hear
1:38
Speaker 2: a story that's as heartbreaking and tragic as it was preventable.
1:42
Speaker 2: And it's a remarkable look inside the systemic flaws as
1:46
Speaker 2: well as human errors that lead to wrongful convictions. And
1:50
Speaker 2: in this particular case, we're going to be telling the
1:53
Speaker 2: story and hearing the story of one of my absolute
1:57
Speaker 2: favorite human beings, a personal hero of mine who is
2:00
Speaker 2: doing amazing, amazing things in the world right now, today
2:05
Speaker 2: and every day. And so I am thrilled and honored
2:09
Speaker 2: to have with us on the show today, Christine Bunch.
2:12
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.
2:14
Speaker 2: And with Christine is someone whose name you'll probably recognize,
2:17
Speaker 2: Ron Safer.
2:18
Speaker 1: Ron Safer.
2:19
Speaker 2: Is a former U.S. attorney turned corporate lawyer turned justice fighter.
2:24
Speaker 2: And you'll recognize him because he was a huge part
2:27
Speaker 2: of the exoneration of Julie Ray, an episode that I'll
2:31
Speaker 2: never forget. And I hope if you haven't heard it,
2:33
Speaker 2: that you'll go back and take a listen. Anyway, Ron,
2:36
Speaker 2: welcome back.
2:38
Speaker 4: My pleasure to be here. Thank you, Jason.
2:40
Speaker 2: So let's get right into it. Christine, you grew up
2:43
Speaker 2: in Indiana, right?
2:45
Speaker 5: I did.
2:46
Speaker 6: Things took a crazy turn when my parents divorced. But
2:50
Speaker 6: for the most part, I was happy and it was good.
2:53
Speaker 2: Now, at the time of this unimaginable tragedy, you were
2:59
Speaker 2: just a young mother living in a trailer, working hard,
3:02
Speaker 2: going to school, just starting your life. Just 21 years old, right?
3:06
Speaker 3: That's correct.
3:07
Speaker 6: I was working and going to school and I had
3:10
Speaker 6: a beautiful three-year-old son named Tony.
3:13
Speaker 2: And then the worst nightmare that any parent can possibly
3:16
Speaker 2: have or wake up to In a cold sweat, and
3:20
Speaker 2: some of us probably have had that experience, but it
3:22
Speaker 2: actually happened to you. And Ron, can you tell us
3:26
Speaker 2: about that awful morning of June 30th, 1995?
3:30
Speaker 4: What happened was Christine and Tony had gone to sleep
3:35
Speaker 4: together on a couch in the living room area of
3:39
Speaker 4: the trailer. Before Christine woke up, Tony had moved to
3:44
Speaker 4: the front room, which was a separate room from the
3:47
Speaker 4: living room. Christina awoke to a sound and a small fire.
3:56
Speaker 4: She was disoriented, but she saw the small fire and
4:03
Speaker 4: she tried to put it out with a pillow and
4:06
Speaker 4: couldn't do that. So she tried to smother the fire
4:11
Speaker 4: with a blanket and that didn't work either. Carbon monoxide
4:16
Speaker 4: is by this carbon monoxide. She's trying to put out
4:24
Speaker 4: the fire. She can't find the fire extinguisher. She knows
4:30
Speaker 4: where the fire extinguisher is. She can't find it. So
4:33
Speaker 4: by that time, the fire had grown into a wall
4:38
Speaker 4: between her and Tony, and she could not get to him.
4:41
Speaker 4: So she frantically went out of the trailer, tried to
4:45
Speaker 4: get help, and then tried to break the window into
4:49
Speaker 4: the front room so that she could get to Tony.
4:52
Speaker 4: But it was too late and Tony had perished.
4:57
Speaker 2: It's impossible to even conceive of the horror and the
5:01
Speaker 2: panic in a time like that, even if you didn't
5:04
Speaker 2: have kids, like waking up to a fire. Christine, what
5:08
Speaker 2: are your memories of that awful night now 25 years ago?
5:13
Speaker 3: I think the thing that sits with me the most
5:15
Speaker 3: is it was just normal.
5:18
Speaker 6: I came home from school and I got Tony from
5:21
Speaker 6: the babysitter and we went home and we cooked and
5:26
Speaker 6: I think we, you know, watched some TV and did
5:29
Speaker 6: some laundry and we fell asleep. I'd read him a
5:32
Speaker 6: story and he wasn't feeling really well. And we fell
5:35
Speaker 6: asleep on the couch under the air conditioner and everything
5:39
Speaker 6: just seemed normal. You didn't realize that you were going
5:44
Speaker 6: to wake up and your whole world would be turned
5:47
Speaker 6: upside down.
5:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, your whole world was really destroyed at
5:54
Speaker 2: a time when the community and the system should have
5:59
Speaker 2: been coming to help you in every conceivable way. Instead,
6:05
Speaker 2: you were exposed to and victimized by the worst that
6:09
Speaker 2: the system and our society has to offer. And it's
6:12
Speaker 2: so important that you're here now because this arson... quote
6:16
Speaker 2: unquote science that they used in order to frame you
6:19
Speaker 2: and wrongfully convict you for a crime that never even
6:24
Speaker 2: happened is something that we need to focus on because
6:27
Speaker 2: we need awareness among everyone. Because someday you, the listener,
6:31
Speaker 2: may find yourself on a jury and you may be
6:34
Speaker 2: presented with this same sort of junk science.
6:38
Speaker 4: So fire investigation was an apprentice art. There were what
6:45
Speaker 4: was regarded as common knowledge and industry standards that were
6:50
Speaker 4: passed down from generation to generation. Virtually none of those
6:57
Speaker 4: conventional wisdom were true. And when tested by scientific principles,
7:03
Speaker 4: they were all debunked. Unfortunately, that came too late for Christine.
7:09
Speaker 2: And this starts with a fire investigator named Brian Frank.
7:14
Speaker 4: So what Frank did was the day of this fire,
7:18
Speaker 4: and keep in mind, this trailer was completely incinerated. He
7:23
Speaker 4: comes into the trailer and just plucks things out of
7:28
Speaker 4: thin air. He says, oh, this... This is a burn
7:34
Speaker 4: pattern on the floor. That's evidence of a liquid accelerant
7:40
Speaker 4: like gasoline. Ooh, there's a V pattern on the wall.
7:45
Speaker 4: That is, fire burns up in a V pattern. And therefore,
7:51
Speaker 4: because there are two of these, there were two points
7:55
Speaker 4: of origin. A normal accidental fire will have one point
8:00
Speaker 4: of origin. Sometimes, if a fire is intentionally set, it
8:04
Speaker 4: will have two points of origin. It says, oops, here,
8:07
Speaker 4: the fire burned down. That is a sign of a
8:13
Speaker 4: liquid accelerant. For all of these reasons, I conclude this
8:18
Speaker 4: was not an accidental fire. This was intentionally set because,
8:23
Speaker 4: as you said at the beginning, Jason, unlike many crimes
8:27
Speaker 4: like a robbery or a fraud or a murder, The
8:32
Speaker 4: question in an arson is, was a crime even committed?
8:36
Speaker 4: And upon that threshold question rests the lives of hundreds
8:41
Speaker 4: of people, including Christine.
8:45
Speaker 2: Here's what's absolutely nuts, is that to become a licensed
8:50
Speaker 2: arson investigator, one who can testify in court, you can
8:54
Speaker 2: take a 40-hour correspondence course. It takes 1,500 hours in
9:00
Speaker 2: some places to become a manicurist. You can't get a
9:03
Speaker 2: barber's license in less than six months. The idea that
9:06
Speaker 2: they've been relying on these charlatans. You'd be better off
9:10
Speaker 2: consulting with psychics or even just guessing. And in Christine's case,
9:15
Speaker 2: there are so many other problems, right? There's tunnel vision,
9:18
Speaker 2: withholding of exculpatory evidence. There's multiple incompetent investigators who pass
9:24
Speaker 2: themselves off as experts. And then it goes downhill from there.
9:28
Speaker 2: So there you are outside the house and in minutes,
9:31
Speaker 2: in moments, your life has gone from a good life
9:35
Speaker 2: full of love and hope to the worst imaginable scenario.
9:40
Speaker 6: You're just in shock and you don't really believe what
9:44
Speaker 6: people are telling you because they kept telling me, no,
9:48
Speaker 6: you can't go in and no, we couldn't get him.
9:51
Speaker 3: And no, he's not alive. And of course, as a parent,
9:56
Speaker 3: you don't want to believe that. People.
10:00
Speaker 6: On the outside want to look at it and say, well,
10:02
Speaker 6: if this was done differently or if you had acted
10:05
Speaker 6: this way. And I mean, for myself, I have played
10:12
Speaker 6: it over and over and over and over again in
10:15
Speaker 6: my mind. I still, every day that I wake up,
10:19
Speaker 6: play it over in my mind. And I don't know
10:22
Speaker 6: how to come up with a different scenario.
10:27
Speaker 3: When you're in that.
10:27
Speaker 6: Moment and the terror paralyzes you, you don't know what
10:33
Speaker 6: you would do. So it's easy to stand outside and say,
10:37
Speaker 6: this should have never happened.
10:39
Speaker 3: And somebody has to be blamed.
10:42
Speaker 2: Right. Because the alternative is incomprehensible to most people. Why
10:46
Speaker 2: an innocent baby would be taken and Christine, six days
10:52
Speaker 2: in hell, right? Six days for you between the fire
10:59
Speaker 2: and the loss of your child and the time that
11:00
Speaker 2: you're arrested. What were those six days like? What were
11:03
Speaker 2: you doing?
11:05
Speaker 3: I went with my parents to plan a funeral.
11:11
Speaker 6: And my mom and dad really went through how the
11:15
Speaker 6: service was going to be.
11:17
Speaker 3: And I just remember sitting there and crying.
11:20
Speaker 7: And then I told him that I wanted a song played,
11:24
Speaker 7: something that I, you know, sang with Tony. And he said,
11:29
Speaker 7: we can play whatever you want.
11:32
Speaker 6: And then I had to go get clothes to wear
11:35
Speaker 6: to a funeral. At that time, I was still walking
11:39
Speaker 6: around barefoot because I'd literally lost everything. And everybody was
11:44
Speaker 6: trying to you know, comfort you and give.
11:47
Speaker 5: You advice and it just doesn't comfort you. So you
11:54
Speaker 5: feel more alone than ever because you don't want to
11:58
Speaker 5: hurt their feelings, but everything they're saying to you doesn't penetrate.
12:05
Speaker 6: The police didn't help because they followed me everywhere I
12:10
Speaker 6: went and talked to everybody.
12:13
Speaker 3: After I left and they.
12:15
Speaker 6: Even showed up at my son's funeral and burial. They
12:21
Speaker 6: came to me before I even got out of the
12:23
Speaker 6: hospital and told me that it was an arson. They
12:26
Speaker 6: literally wanted a list of all my.
12:29
Speaker 3: Family and friends, anybody that could have possibly done it.
12:32
Speaker 3: Then they come back to me and say, no, you're,
12:34
Speaker 3: you're the person you're under arrest for this.
12:38
Speaker 6: And in a small town, once they make her arrest,
12:42
Speaker 6: and put a headline on the paper in a small community,
12:46
Speaker 6: in that community's.
12:47
Speaker 3: Mind, you're guilty.
12:52
Speaker 2: So now you're arrested. How long were you held before
12:55
Speaker 2: the trial? Were you able to bail out?
12:58
Speaker 3: I was in there from July 6th to October, mid-October.
13:03
Speaker 3: I bonded out on a $ 50, 000 cash bond. I tell....
13:09
Speaker 6: My son, Trent, all the time that he's the miracle
13:12
Speaker 6: that saved me. But when I got out, I certainly
13:17
Speaker 6: didn't care if I lived or died.
13:19
Speaker 3: And so I was drinking and doing a lot of
13:23
Speaker 3: self-medicating because I just didn't want to feel anymore.
13:28
Speaker 6: And in the midst of that, I started getting sick.
13:34
Speaker 6: And that's when I discovered I was pregnant.
13:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the worst possible scenario, although now, as
13:43
Speaker 2: you said, it turns out to be the thing that
13:46
Speaker 2: saved you, and we'll get into more of that later. But, Ron,
13:51
Speaker 2: this trial is full of, I mean, again, it's horseshit,
13:55
Speaker 2: the stuff that they were spewing from the stand.
13:58
Speaker 4: It began with the prosecutor standing in front of the
14:00
Speaker 4: jury and saying, motive is not an element of the crime.
14:06
Speaker 4: We don't have to prove motive. people tend not to
14:11
Speaker 4: commit crimes for no reason. And of course they investigated
14:17
Speaker 4: Christine and her motive for this crime. And they found
14:21
Speaker 4: that she was a good, loving, caring, wonderful mother, and
14:28
Speaker 4: that she and Tony had a beautiful relationship. Everybody said
14:34
Speaker 4: that universally. And so they're left with telling the jury, okay,
14:40
Speaker 4: Christine committed this horrific crime for no reason, but we
14:45
Speaker 4: don't have to prove motive. Then their case depended on 100%
14:51
Speaker 4: on this quote unquote expert testimony because Christine didn't set
14:58
Speaker 4: this fire. So, of course, nobody saw her set the fire.
15:03
Speaker 4: Nobody saw her prepare to set the fire. Nobody heard
15:06
Speaker 4: her talk about setting the fire. Nobody afterwards. There was
15:10
Speaker 4: no physical evidence, no forensic evidence, no nothing. Of course,
15:15
Speaker 4: the trailer wasn't insured. She lost all of her possessions.
15:19
Speaker 4: She lost, of course, the person who meant most to
15:22
Speaker 4: her in the world. So they were left with this
15:26
Speaker 4: expert testimony, these absurd fire investigation myths, which should have
15:34
Speaker 4: and could have been dispelled by a defense attorney or
15:39
Speaker 4: a competent attorney. defense expert. But there was something else
15:43
Speaker 4: that was critical in this trial that would have been
15:46
Speaker 4: difficult for a defense attorney to combat.
15:49
Speaker 2: And I have to tell the audience that this critical
15:52
Speaker 2: evidence becomes just as important later to proving Christine's innocence
15:56
Speaker 2: as it was in getting her convicted. But go ahead, Ron.
16:00
Speaker 4: They took 10 samples from The trailer from the floor
16:05
Speaker 4: of the trailer, from the carpet of the trailer, from
16:08
Speaker 4: Christine's nightgown. And they tested it for various accelerants. There
16:15
Speaker 4: was no gasoline. There was no inflammatory substance of any
16:20
Speaker 4: kind on Christine's nightgown, even though they said that she
16:25
Speaker 4: would splash this accelerant all around. But there were two
16:30
Speaker 4: positive samples. And those samples, by the way, were given
16:34
Speaker 4: to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, ATF, who
16:38
Speaker 4: federally investigates arson crimes. And they have special laboratories and
16:43
Speaker 4: they did gas chromatography on these samples. And they presented
16:51
Speaker 4: evidence at trial that there were two positive tests for
16:57
Speaker 4: what they called a heavy petroleum distillate, like jet fuel
17:03
Speaker 4: or something else, specifically not kerosene. And that was found
17:10
Speaker 4: in the living room area and critically in the front room,
17:17
Speaker 4: the room where Tony was found. Now, there is reason
17:22
Speaker 4: for there to be kerosene in the living room because
17:25
Speaker 4: the prior owners of this trailer testified that they had
17:30
Speaker 4: a kerosene heater and that they overfilled it from time
17:33
Speaker 4: to time. kerosene does not evaporate. And so even from
17:37
Speaker 4: years before, there would be kerosene in the wood. But
17:41
Speaker 4: there's no explanation for a heavy petroleum distillate like jet fuel.
17:46
Speaker 4: And there is absolutely no innocent explanation for there to
17:51
Speaker 4: be a heavy petroleum distillate in the front room, Tony's bedroom.
17:56
Speaker 4: And that was critical evidence that was not refuted by
18:03
Speaker 4: the defense attorney. And on the strength of that expert
18:07
Speaker 4: testimony and these critical lab determinations, Christine was convicted.
18:14
Speaker 2: March 4th, 1996, 22 years old, pregnant. Christine is convicted
18:21
Speaker 2: of arson and murder. Less than a month later, she's
18:26
Speaker 2: sentenced to two concurrent terms, 60 years for murder, and
18:31
Speaker 2: 50 years for arson. So how pregnant were you, Christine,
18:33
Speaker 2: at the time of this wrongful conviction? And what the
18:36
Speaker 2: hell was it like giving birth behind bars?
18:40
Speaker 6: Um, I was almost six months pregnant. The only thing
18:45
Speaker 6: they don't do to pregnant women is make them wear
18:48
Speaker 6: the belly chain and the box because the baby's not
18:51
Speaker 6: a prisoner. But, um, With so many pregnant women in there,
18:56
Speaker 6: you don't always get soft cuffs for your feet. So
19:01
Speaker 6: I've got deep scars on the back of my ankles
19:05
Speaker 6: from wearing those metal shackles. And then when I finally
19:13
Speaker 6: went into labor, I didn't really know.
19:15
Speaker 3: That I was in labor because I was just having
19:17
Speaker 3: a backache.
19:19
Speaker 6: So they took me to the infirmary and couldn't find
19:22
Speaker 6: a heartbeat.
19:24
Speaker 3: I lost it.
19:24
Speaker 6: I started, you know, screaming at him. And so I
19:28
Speaker 6: was handcuffed and shackled and taken out into an ambulance.
19:32
Speaker 6: And when I got to the hospital, a doctor come
19:35
Speaker 6: in and explained that I was having contractions and that's
19:38
Speaker 6: why they couldn't hear the heartbeat. They determined that I
19:41
Speaker 6: was going to have an emergency C-section. So the handcuffs
19:45
Speaker 6: and shackles came off and I got a metal.
19:48
Speaker 3: Cuff on my ankle and a log chain.
19:52
Speaker 6: I got about 36 hours with Trent and then I
19:56
Speaker 6: was transferred back to the facility and my family took
20:00
Speaker 6: him home.
20:14
Speaker 2: So the good news is that there is actually an
20:17
Speaker 2: equal or greater number of heroes in this story than villains.
20:21
Speaker 2: Betsy Marks, Hilary Bo Ricks, Jamie McAllister, and the other
20:25
Speaker 2: two actual fire scientists, John DeHaan and John Malooly, plus
20:30
Speaker 2: the electrical engineer Richard Hansen. Then Karen Daniel and Jane Raley,
20:36
Speaker 2: legends in the field, were on your side. And of course,
20:40
Speaker 2: you're on my side. Ron himself, Ron Safer. I mean,
20:42
Speaker 2: the fucking cavalry came in on this one, right? Can
20:46
Speaker 2: you talk now about the process that led 17 years
20:50
Speaker 2: later to Christine finally coming home?
20:53
Speaker 4: Yes, Christine pursued this tirelessly against all odds. Found a
21:01
Speaker 4: wonderful local attorney, Hilary Bo Ricks, who believed in Christine,
21:06
Speaker 4: but really did not have the resources to take on
21:10
Speaker 4: the awesome power of the state. And a supporter of
21:14
Speaker 4: Christine wrote a letter to Northwestern Center on Wrongful Convictions.
21:18
Speaker 4: And Jane Raley, along with Karen Daniel, took Christine's case
21:24
Speaker 4: and they disassembled Every piece of evidence the state put forward,
21:30
Speaker 4: Karen and Jane assembled the world's experts on fire science,
21:36
Speaker 4: not the myths of arson investigation, but on fire science
21:41
Speaker 4: to prove first that everything the state said was wrong.
21:46
Speaker 4: And then second, that Christine was innocent, not beyond a
21:51
Speaker 4: reasonable doubt, beyond any doubt. So first, they got... a
21:56
Speaker 4: former ATF agent, and he testified that every one of
22:01
Speaker 4: the myths that was used by the so-called arson investigator,
22:06
Speaker 4: Brian Frank, was wrong. A V pattern does not indicate
22:11
Speaker 4: a point of origin. It indicates a point where something
22:14
Speaker 4: burned against a wall. Fire burns down not because of
22:18
Speaker 4: a liquid accelerant, but because it's seeking oxygen and there
22:22
Speaker 4: was a hole in the trailer. So the burn patterns
22:27
Speaker 4: that Frank says indicated that there was a liquid accelerant
22:31
Speaker 4: have been disproved. Brian Frank said that the fire was
22:34
Speaker 4: hotter because a liquid accelerant was used. That is a myth.
22:39
Speaker 4: Controlled experiments prove that fire is no hotter. Indeed, the
22:45
Speaker 4: heat depends on what is being burnt. So chemistry, Physics
22:51
Speaker 4: disproved every one of the pieces of evidence. But there
22:55
Speaker 4: was one more critical thing that Karen Daniel did that
23:00
Speaker 4: was pivotal. She subpoenaed the underlying test data that had
23:06
Speaker 4: been used by the ATF lab and all of the
23:09
Speaker 4: documents related to those tests. And what that found was stunning. First,
23:17
Speaker 4: she got the actual gas chromatographs, so the actual tests.
23:23
Speaker 4: And contrary to his testimony, he did test against the
23:27
Speaker 4: standard of kerosene, not a heavy distillate, but kerosene. Then,
23:32
Speaker 4: When you look at those actual test data, you find that, yes,
23:37
Speaker 4: there was kerosene in the living room where the kerosene
23:41
Speaker 4: heater had been years before. But then you look at
23:45
Speaker 4: the sample from Tony's bedroom, the sample that convicted Christine,
23:50
Speaker 4: and the test was negative for any liquid accelerant. Kerosene,
23:58
Speaker 4: heavy petroleum distillate, nothing. What's more, in that file, there
24:05
Speaker 4: was a draft report that reflected accurately the test results.
24:11
Speaker 4: That is that there had been kerosene in the living
24:14
Speaker 4: room and that the sample in Tony's bedroom was negative.
24:18
Speaker 4: And then there was a report that in handwriting that
24:24
Speaker 4: crossed that out and made that test result positive. How
24:29
Speaker 4: that happened, unfortunately, we'll never know. Because by the time
24:33
Speaker 4: we got to the hearing, the ATF agent who is
24:36
Speaker 4: now deceased was incompetent in an assisted living home and
24:42
Speaker 4: could not testify about what happened. But what was clear
24:46
Speaker 4: was Christine was convicted based on not only faulty but
24:55
Speaker 4: false evidence. So that takes care of the state's case.
25:01
Speaker 2: So Christine's team exposed the junk science and the outright
25:04
Speaker 2: falsification of the real scientific data that led to her conviction.
25:08
Speaker 2: And by the way, these are your tax dollars at work.
25:10
Speaker 2: And if you don't think this could happen to you, well,
25:13
Speaker 2: don't even get me started. There's more to this. And
25:17
Speaker 2: I'm talking about what the defense's expert, Jamie McAllister, testified
25:20
Speaker 2: to about how the fire really started.
25:24
Speaker 4: Jamie McAllister, who is an expert in examining the victim's
25:29
Speaker 4: chemistry and reverse engineering how a fire must have started,
25:33
Speaker 4: testified about how this fire started. Tony died before the
25:39
Speaker 4: fire got hot. He died of carbon monoxide poisoning. There
25:44
Speaker 4: was no burning in his trachea, no burning in his lungs.
25:49
Speaker 4: And so he had stopped breathing before the fire got hot.
25:55
Speaker 4: His carboxyhemoglobin rate, which is what we refer to as
25:58
Speaker 4: carbon monoxide poisoning, it's when the carbon monoxide bonds with
26:03
Speaker 4: your blood, the hemoglobin.
26:05
Speaker 2: Was 80%.
26:06
Speaker 4: 50% is lethal. So how did it get that high? Well,
26:14
Speaker 4: Jamie McAllister testifies that controlled experiments show that if the
26:18
Speaker 4: fire had started out in the open air of the
26:22
Speaker 4: living room or the bedroom, it would have produced a
26:25
Speaker 4: lot of carbon dioxide to oxygen molecules because there's a
26:30
Speaker 4: lot of air floating around. and very little carbon monoxide,
26:36
Speaker 4: one oxygen molecule. It would have taken 90 minutes for
26:43
Speaker 4: the fire to have produced enough carbon monoxide for Tony
26:47
Speaker 4: to have gotten to a carboxyhemoglobin rate approaching 80%. He
26:52
Speaker 4: would have burned to death long before that. And of course,
26:57
Speaker 4: his lungs and everything else would have burned. That didn't happen.
27:01
Speaker 4: So how did this fire happen? Well, as an electrician testified,
27:07
Speaker 4: there were electrical wires that were overloaded that ran between
27:13
Speaker 4: the roof and the drop-down ceiling tiles. There was an
27:17
Speaker 4: electrical fire that started that morning. But because there's limited
27:22
Speaker 4: oxygen there, what happens is the fire smolders and it
27:27
Speaker 4: produces a lot of carbon monoxide. up in the ceiling. Now, eventually,
27:34
Speaker 4: the fire gets hot enough so that one of the
27:37
Speaker 4: ceiling tiles burns and drops to the floor. That undoubtedly
27:43
Speaker 4: is what Christine awakens to. Now, when that happens, the
27:48
Speaker 4: carbon monoxide fills Tony's room like a balloon that is
27:53
Speaker 4: letting out its air. Physical tests and chemical tests prove
27:58
Speaker 4: within minutes he dies of carbon monoxide poisoning. That's how
28:04
Speaker 4: this fire had to have happened. And thus, not only
28:09
Speaker 4: was there no evidence that Christine was guilty of an arson,
28:14
Speaker 4: there was conclusive evidence that the fire was an accidental fire.
28:20
Speaker 4: that took place in the confined area of the ceiling
28:24
Speaker 4: and that Tony died, as everybody knew, of carbon monoxide poisoning.
28:30
Speaker 2: But in spite of all of this, on June 8th
28:32
Speaker 2: of 2010, now over 14 years after your conviction, Judge
28:37
Speaker 2: Westhofer denied you a new trial. He said, quote, while,
28:42
Speaker 2: and this is a quote, while Ms. Bunch had new
28:44
Speaker 2: resources available to her at the post-conviction hearing, New experts
28:49
Speaker 2: do not create new evidence. The issues raised and the
28:52
Speaker 2: conclusions reached, while packaged differently, remain basically the same as
28:57
Speaker 2: they were at trial in 1996, end quote. He went
29:02
Speaker 2: on to add that he did not believe the ATF
29:04
Speaker 2: documents would have changed the outcome of the trial. I mean,
29:08
Speaker 2: it was exposed that they falsified the findings and said
29:12
Speaker 2: the samples were positive when they weren't. What the actual fuck?
29:17
Speaker 2: And this again, if you don't think this can happen
29:19
Speaker 2: to you and I'm talking to the audience now, of course,
29:22
Speaker 2: you're wrong. A very large percentage of judges are elected
29:27
Speaker 2: and the others are appointed by elected officials. Either way,
29:31
Speaker 2: your decisions in the voting booth are going to determine
29:34
Speaker 2: who ends up on the bench. So end of my rant.
29:38
Speaker 2: Back to the story. Meanwhile, another Indianapolis lawyer joins the team,
29:43
Speaker 2: John Larimore. And then we get to the good stuff, right?
29:47
Speaker 2: On July 13th, 2011, Ron, who's here with us now,
29:52
Speaker 2: argued in front of a three-member panel of the Court
29:55
Speaker 2: of Appeals of Indiana.
29:57
Speaker 4: At the argument itself, it was very clear from the
30:00
Speaker 4: questioning of the judges that one judge was dead set
30:04
Speaker 4: against us. There was nothing I was going to be
30:06
Speaker 4: able to say to change his mind. One judge was
30:11
Speaker 4: for us. And no matter how incoherently I babbled, he
30:15
Speaker 4: was going to vote for us. And so the middle judge,
30:19
Speaker 4: the chief judge, held Christine's fate in her hand. Our
30:24
Speaker 4: working theory, and it made sense, was that if the
30:27
Speaker 4: court was going to reverse this conviction, they would have
30:31
Speaker 4: done it right away because they know she's sitting in jail.
30:35
Speaker 4: So we're sitting there understanding that the longer this goes on,
30:39
Speaker 4: the more likely it is we lost. As time wore on,
30:45
Speaker 4: despair grew.
30:47
Speaker 2: And eight of what must have been truly agonizing months later, Christine,
30:53
Speaker 2: on March 21st of 2012, in a two-to-one decision, the
30:59
Speaker 2: panel reversed the conviction and granted you a new trial,
31:02
Speaker 2: citing the evolution of fire science, as well as the
31:05
Speaker 2: fact that exculpatory evidence was withheld that, quote-unquote, directly contradicted
31:11
Speaker 2: ATF forensic analyst William Kennard's trial testimony. Christine, how did
31:16
Speaker 2: you find out about this momentous decision?
31:19
Speaker 3: I got a call to come to the counselor's office.
31:23
Speaker 6: And my lawyers were on the phone to tell me
31:25
Speaker 6: that they had reversed.
31:26
Speaker 3: My conviction and remanded for a new trial.
31:29
Speaker 6: I started crying and I asked them if they called
31:33
Speaker 6: my son. I wanted him to know that I won
31:37
Speaker 6: and I was going.
31:38
Speaker 3: To come home.
31:42
Speaker 6: And so they assured me that yes, they were calling him.
31:46
Speaker 6: And I ended up, I stayed in the counselor's office
31:49
Speaker 6: for like an hour and a half because I had
31:51
Speaker 6: back-to-back calls. And she said, you know, she said, we're
31:54
Speaker 6: just going to make this your day. So everybody can
31:57
Speaker 6: call and congratulate you and tell you the news.
32:00
Speaker 3: And they were just so happy for me.
32:03
Speaker 2: Ron, what about you? What's your recollection of that phone call?
32:07
Speaker 4: I cared beyond measure about Christine in this case and
32:12
Speaker 4: getting her out of jail. And when it ultimately happened,
32:15
Speaker 4: it was as if it was happening to my sister.
32:19
Speaker 4: Just the most moving experience. Although the reality comes home of, okay,
32:27
Speaker 4: she's not out of jail. She gets a new trial.
32:32
Speaker 4: She's still sitting in jail. We got to get her
32:34
Speaker 4: out of jail.
32:36
Speaker 2: So almost five months go by after March 21st, 2012,
32:39
Speaker 2: and the amazing phone call all the way to August 8th,
32:43
Speaker 2: when the Indiana Supreme Court left the appellate court's decision undisturbed.
32:48
Speaker 2: And then finally, about a month after that, September 1st, 2012,
32:52
Speaker 2: 17 years, one month, and 16 days after you were arrested, Christine,
32:58
Speaker 2: you were finally released into the arms of your family.
33:01
Speaker 2: What was that like?
33:02
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, when you first walk out, I think
33:06
Speaker 6: all you're looking at is the dream finally happened, and
33:10
Speaker 6: I have so many possibilities. After that initial, whoo, wears off,
33:19
Speaker 6: then you're left with all of these fears and insecurities.
33:24
Speaker 6: It was great walking out and seeing everyone. But then,
33:29
Speaker 6: you know, I'm facing another murder trial. So we have
33:34
Speaker 6: to start preparing for that. And I have, you know,
33:38
Speaker 6: my son who I have to provide a home for
33:42
Speaker 6: and I have to make sure that he has everything
33:44
Speaker 6: he needs.
33:45
Speaker 3: He's just 16. So I don't have a.
33:49
Speaker 6: A driver's license. I don't have any kind of ID.
33:52
Speaker 6: I don't have renter's history, credit score, all of these things.
33:55
Speaker 6: I don't even know where I'm going to get a
33:57
Speaker 6: job after 17 years. So fear starts to take you over.
34:03
Speaker 6: And I think that.
34:05
Speaker 3: At first I was just like, I'm not going to
34:07
Speaker 3: make it. There's no way I'm going to be able
34:09
Speaker 3: to make it.
34:11
Speaker 6: And that first night, my son was showing me on
34:15
Speaker 6: his laptop how to set up a Facebook account. And
34:20
Speaker 6: while I'm looking at it, I see that he has
34:22
Speaker 6: the appellate court site bookmarked.
34:26
Speaker 3: And I said, why do you have that?
34:27
Speaker 6: And he looked at me and he said, because I
34:30
Speaker 6: checked every day to see if they made a decision
34:34
Speaker 6: and you.
34:34
Speaker 3: Were coming home. And I started crying.
34:38
Speaker 6: And I said, you know, I said, I've been so
34:42
Speaker 6: worried and so unsure.
34:44
Speaker 3: But hearing that you believed in me and were just
34:48
Speaker 3: waiting for me to come home. I can make it through.
34:58
Speaker 1: Anything.
35:02
Speaker 2: Then another in a long line of amazing developments in
35:05
Speaker 2: your case happened just before Christmas, which must have made
35:08
Speaker 2: that time of year even sweeter. The prosecution finally came
35:13
Speaker 2: around to their senses and dropped the charges, which brings
35:17
Speaker 2: us to your next struggle. compensation for all that lost time.
35:21
Speaker 2: And of course, no amount of money can be enough
35:23
Speaker 2: to repay what you lost. But you had an uphill
35:26
Speaker 2: battle and a unique struggle just to even get compensation.
35:29
Speaker 2: Can you fill us in on that?
35:31
Speaker 3: Yes. So like everyone, I filed a civil suit. Clearly,
35:36
Speaker 3: people are protected.
35:38
Speaker 6: So you have to break through immunity to try to sue.
35:42
Speaker 6: The issue is the ATF chemist is deceased. so I
35:46
Speaker 6: didn't have a leg to stand on, and that was
35:49
Speaker 6: ultimately dismissed. Compensation, I have been working since I've been out, and, well,
35:55
Speaker 6: I've helped pass new legislation in three different states working
35:58
Speaker 6: with the Innocence Project. This past year, we passed compensation
36:03
Speaker 6: in Indiana, and then when my civil suit was dismissed,
36:09
Speaker 6: I applied for the compensation. You know, it was, I think,
36:14
Speaker 6: very surreal to receive a letter from them saying that
36:18
Speaker 6: just because my conviction was reversed and I wasn't retried
36:23
Speaker 6: did not mean that I was actually innocent. And it really,
36:26
Speaker 6: I mean, it hurt my feelings because I testified before
36:30
Speaker 6: these legislators three separate occasions. The senators and representatives that
36:36
Speaker 6: passed this bill used my case to pass this compensation bill.
36:41
Speaker 6: And then you're going to basically retry me all over again.
36:45
Speaker 2: So are they really trying to relitigate this case?
36:49
Speaker 3: No, they are not.
36:51
Speaker 6: But as you go through the process, you fill out
36:54
Speaker 6: a compensation application and then they review it. So for them,
36:59
Speaker 6: they reached out to the prosecutor and the prosecutor said,
37:04
Speaker 6: you know, no, we didn't have evidence at the time
37:06
Speaker 6: to retry this. But, you know, we aren't going to
37:09
Speaker 6: say we made a mistake. They never want to say
37:12
Speaker 6: they made a mistake. So I had to reach out
37:15
Speaker 6: to everyone I knew, the Center on Wrongful Convictions with,
37:20
Speaker 6: you know, the amazing Laura Nye Ryder and Steve Drizzen,
37:23
Speaker 6: Ron Safer, and all of them wrote letters and submitted
37:28
Speaker 6: the evidence that was used to exonerate me in order
37:32
Speaker 6: to show them that I am innocent and worthy of
37:35
Speaker 6: this compensation 25 years after the fact.
37:40
Speaker 3: They are reviewing the application. They've been reviewing it since November.
37:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let's hope they come to their senses and
37:47
Speaker 2: come to the right decision because I think the right
37:49
Speaker 2: thing to do is clear to everyone who's listening and
37:52
Speaker 2: to anyone with a heart and a soul. So let's
37:56
Speaker 2: get to what you're doing now. You started an organization
37:59
Speaker 2: called Just Is for Just Us.
38:02
Speaker 6: Just Is, just like it sounds, because the situation just is.
38:07
Speaker 6: And then it's for just us, which means all of
38:10
Speaker 6: us exonerees. Justice for Just Us was started by myself
38:15
Speaker 6: and another exoneree that came from the Center on Wrongful Convictions.
38:20
Speaker 3: And Juan and I just.
38:21
Speaker 6: Basically wanted to address what it was like because when
38:24
Speaker 6: people walk out, you don't have a toothbrush.
38:26
Speaker 3: You don't have the basic necessities. So J4J for short,
38:32
Speaker 3: we're helping with boxes. If somebody reaches out and.
38:34
Speaker 6: Says, hey, I need an outfit and I need basic hygiene,
38:38
Speaker 6: we put that together. We've helped take some exonerees to
38:42
Speaker 6: the Innocence Conference, sent out gas cards, cash cards.
38:46
Speaker 3: We've paid rent. We've paid bills.
38:49
Speaker 6: And our organization allows health care providers to donate services
38:54
Speaker 6: so they can get a dental visit or some counseling sessions.
38:59
Speaker 6: or a physical, things that are desperately needed when you return.
39:04
Speaker 2: It's such an important thing. You know, I've tried to
39:07
Speaker 2: devote myself to doing as much as I can to
39:09
Speaker 2: help people coming out of the system because it's exactly
39:13
Speaker 2: as you described. It's like, I call it the second punishment.
39:16
Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is most people coming
39:18
Speaker 2: out have no support whatsoever. They may get $ 40 and
39:21
Speaker 2: a bus ticket and then, you know, not even a
39:24
Speaker 2: good luck. So, There are a number of wonderful organizations
39:28
Speaker 2: doing this work. And I encourage everyone to support Just
39:33
Speaker 2: Is for Just Us. So please, everyone scroll down in
39:36
Speaker 2: the episode description and get involved with Just Is for
39:40
Speaker 2: Just Us. And now this is the part of the show,
39:42
Speaker 2: of course, that we call Closing Arguments. So first of all,
39:45
Speaker 2: thank you to our phenomenal guests today. The closing argument
39:49
Speaker 2: segment works like this. I turn off my microphone, kick
39:52
Speaker 2: back in my chair, leave my headphones on. Sometimes I
39:55
Speaker 2: close my eyes and we're going to let each of
39:57
Speaker 2: you have the final word on whatever you want to
40:00
Speaker 2: talk about. So let's go to Ron first and then Christine,
40:04
Speaker 2: you can just take us out.
40:06
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, thanks so much, Jason, for telling
40:09
Speaker 4: this story, for telling the other stories. It is so
40:13
Speaker 4: critically important to raise public awareness of these wrongful convictions.
40:20
Speaker 4: We have the best criminal justice system in the world,
40:24
Speaker 4: but it is run by human beings and human beings
40:29
Speaker 4: are flawed. They make mistakes. They commit at times, act
40:35
Speaker 4: intentionally maliciously. When that happens, it takes enormous resources to
40:42
Speaker 4: get the system back on track. And so few people
40:46
Speaker 4: are able to afford those resources or are given those resources.
40:53
Speaker 4: So what has to happen is everybody involved in the system, prosecutors, judges, jurors,
41:03
Speaker 4: have to have an open mind. They have to be
41:08
Speaker 4: persons of goodwill. We as citizens have to hold them
41:14
Speaker 4: accountable that their jobs are not to get convictions. Their
41:20
Speaker 4: jobs are to do justice. And we have to insist
41:25
Speaker 4: on We have to enter that jury box as citizens
41:29
Speaker 4: giving credence to the presumption of innocence that our Constitution requires.
41:36
Speaker 4: They're not words. They are a critical concept. But if
41:40
Speaker 4: we don't pay attention to it, if we don't honor it,
41:45
Speaker 4: then wonderful people like Christine will have their lives robbed
41:51
Speaker 4: from them, losing decades that nobody can give back to them.
41:57
Speaker 4: And so this is a call to action. We have
42:02
Speaker 4: to be more active. We have to be more responsible.
42:07
Speaker 4: We have to be accountable and make sure that everybody
42:12
Speaker 4: in the system is accountable.
42:16
Speaker 2: Christine?
42:17
Speaker 6: When I go speak to the community and tell them
42:20
Speaker 6: how they can help with J4J or how they can
42:24
Speaker 6: help the Innocence Project or how they can step up
42:28
Speaker 6: and make changes within our system because it is a
42:32
Speaker 6: great system. It is designed to work and we have
42:37
Speaker 6: to take responsibility and make sure it works. So I
42:42
Speaker 6: know that everybody is sitting there saying, I don't have
42:44
Speaker 6: money to donate, but everybody does have.
42:48
Speaker 3: To step up and say, I have something to give here.
42:51
Speaker 3: I can vote.
42:53
Speaker 6: I can educate myself so that when I'm sitting on
42:55
Speaker 6: the jury, I know what I'm listening to because the
43:00
Speaker 6: CSI you watch on TV, that's not always accurate. So
43:05
Speaker 6: really learning about these issues, really raising your voice.
43:09
Speaker 3: And saying, you know, we need to change some things.
43:13
Speaker 3: That's how we make the world better.
43:14
Speaker 6: And I encourage all of you to learn about this
43:19
Speaker 6: and figure out if you can help by voting by
43:22
Speaker 6: sharing our stories, by talking to an exoneree, by.
43:26
Speaker 3: Just being there.
43:33
Speaker 2: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
43:36
Speaker 2: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
43:39
Speaker 2: donor to the Innocence Project. And I really hope you'll
43:42
Speaker 2: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
43:46
Speaker 2: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innocenceproject.org to learn
43:50
Speaker 2: how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
43:53
Speaker 2: our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardus. The music
43:56
Speaker 2: in the show is by three-time Oscar-nominated composer, Jay Ralph.
44:00
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at wrongfulconviction and
44:03
Speaker 2: on Facebook at wrongfulconvictionpodcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom is
44:08
Speaker 2: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with
44:12
Speaker 2: Signal Company No. 1.