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Heart-Led For the Win-Win-Win with Shannon Mattern · The Heart-Led Business Show

• 0:01
  Speaker: Welcome to the Heart-Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love.
• 0:09
  Speaker: Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second.
• 0:20
  Speaker: From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism.
• 0:29
  Speaker: So buckle up and let's go.
• 0:31
  Speaker: Let your heart guide your business journey.
• 0:36
  Tom: Well, hello again, happy hearts.
• 0:38
  Tom: Get ready for a web of wisdom with our wonderful wizard of the worldwide web.
• 0:43
  Tom: Hold on to your headsets because we're dialing into the dynamic domain of the Duchess herself, Shannon Mattern.
• 0:51
  Tom: She's the muse of marketing, the sage of sales, and the clairvoyant of client management.
• 0:56
  Tom: And on today's Heart-Led Business show, we're diving deep into her experience of running her own Heart-Led Business.
• 1:02
  Tom: So Shannon, welcome to the show.
• 1:04
  Shannon Mattern: Wow, thank you.
• 1:05
  Shannon Mattern: I think that might be the best intro I have ever heard.
• 1:08
  Shannon Mattern: That's amazing.
• 1:09
  Shannon Mattern: Thank you.
• 1:10
  Tom: Awesome.
• 1:11
  Tom: That's my goal of the show is just to have great intros and then let the cards fall where they may.
• 1:19
  Shannon Mattern: Oh, you nailed it for sure.
• 1:21
  Tom: We set it up with a high bar and we're just going to go higher.
• 1:24
  Shannon Mattern: Amazing.
• 1:25
  Tom: Well, Shannon, I'm so excited to have you on the show and you know, we've chatted before and I love your story.
• 1:31
  Tom: I love the work that you're doing and I can't wait to really dive into that.
• 1:35
  Tom: But first, the first question is always what's your definition of a heart-led business?
• 1:40
  Shannon Mattern: I love this question.
• 1:41
  Shannon Mattern: I was thinking about this before we started and I think really my definition is creating win win wins.
• 1:50
  Shannon Mattern: You know, when we are able to run our business in such a way that we love what we do, we love how we're doing it, we love the clients we're working with, we're like making the money that we need to make to have like the time, the resources, the capacity to serve them at a high-level and help them win and help them like create what they really want.
• 2:17
  Shannon Mattern: And then, you know, together we can create more than what either of us could create on our own.
• 2:23
  Shannon Mattern: I mean, that's like, that's the pinnacle, right?
• 2:26
  Shannon Mattern: That's what we, what I think is like the definition of a heart led business.
• 2:32
  Tom: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:34
  Tom: And that is the last piece that you're talking about.
• 2:36
  Tom: The win, win, win kind of reminds me of a quote that I've heard from, I believe it was Zig Ziglar, that the more you do for, I'm going to completely slaughter this quote, of course, but the more you can do for others, the more we'll come back to you.
• 2:51
  Tom: Which I think is such a great way of approaching business.
• 2:55
  Tom: And it's unfortunate that not a lot of businesses kind of approach it that way.
• 2:59
  Tom: But of course, here at The Heart-Led Business Show, we want to change that and highlight businesses that actually do make a difference in other people's lives, as well as the owner's life as well.
• 3:10
  Tom: So tell us a little bit about your business and what inspired you to start a heart led business.
• 3:14
  Shannon Mattern: Yeah, so my company is called the Web Designer Academy and we help women web designers package, price, sell profitable web design projects.
• 3:25
  Shannon Mattern: We help them stop undercharging, stop over delivering and really create the business, like create a heart led business, basically.
• 3:33
  Shannon Mattern: I don't say it that way, but that's really what we help them what we help them do.
• 3:37
  Shannon Mattern: And my journey started over 10 years ago now, I was climbing the corporate ladder as we do.
• 3:46
  Shannon Mattern: And, you know, as we're taught to do in the U.S.
• 3:50
  Shannon Mattern: as like, here's what, here's, here's the blueprint for a successful, happy, no one ever says happy, but successful life, right?
• 4:00
  Shannon Mattern: Is you follow this path and, you know, you climb the corporate ladder and you get the all the benefits and whatever.
• 4:07
  Shannon Mattern: And I just found myself very, very unfulfilled.
• 4:11
  Shannon Mattern: And I had a moment where I was like, this can't be it.
• 4:15
  Shannon Mattern: This can't be what the rest of my life is going to look like.
• 4:18
  Shannon Mattern: I'm, I was 35 years old at the time.
• 4:20
  Shannon Mattern: I'm like, Really?
• 4:22
  Shannon Mattern: Like, another 30 years of this and then I retire?
• 4:24
  Shannon Mattern: Like, that's just not, that's not okay.
• 4:27
  Shannon Mattern: And so for me, my journey started with, I need to fix this for me.
• 4:32
  Shannon Mattern: And once I, unbrainwashed myself, I guess, through reading books, listening to podcasts, similar to this, just like showing myself that there is another way.
• 4:44
  Shannon Mattern: And I started a business on the side of my day job and I built that up to the point where three years later, I was ready to like, leave my high paying, good benefit corporate job and take the leap into solopreneurship.
• 4:58
  Shannon Mattern: I was just like, I have to tell as many other people as I possibly can about this life because it is so much more rich and rewarding and freeing and I could, I just have so much more impact doing this than I ever did.
• 5:16
  Shannon Mattern: So that's really what drove me.
• 5:19
  Shannon Mattern: My business specifically was freelance web design.
• 5:21
  Shannon Mattern: That's what I started doing on the side.
• 5:23
  Shannon Mattern: I started teaching web design to my target audience back then was Oh, if you're building a business on the side because you want to quit your day job, I'll show you how to build your website and I'll show you how to like do all the technical things.
• 5:38
  Shannon Mattern: And then I was also doing a freelance web design for clients as well.
• 5:42
  Shannon Mattern: And then that kind of evolved into other web designers saying, how are you doing this?
• 5:48
  Shannon Mattern: How are you getting clients?
• 5:49
  Shannon Mattern: How did you, how are you able to quit your day job?
• 5:51
  Shannon Mattern: And just kind of following the thread of, what I love to do and what I'm really good at and what's really fun and what doesn't feel like work was coaching other web designers to the things in their business and in their mindset and in the way they think about money and the value to really be able to create that win win win that I talked about earlier.
• 6:16
  Tom: Yeah.
• 6:17
  Tom: What a great story.
• 6:18
  Tom: And it really is basically the same story that I hear over and over, over again from guests on the show is I was in a job corporate or another job that didn't give me joy.
• 6:34
  Tom: I had desires to do something else.
• 6:37
  Tom: I took the leap of faith and I did that something else.
• 6:39
  Tom: And now.
• 6:40
  Tom: I'm really happy.
• 6:41
  Tom: And so
• 6:42
  Shannon Mattern: Yeah.
• 6:42
  Tom: I love that.
• 6:43
  Tom: And I also hear from a lot of people that it's scary making that transition from a high paying corporate job into the unknown or what oftentimes we think is the unknown.
• 6:55
  Tom: Tell me about that experience for you and how long it took you from side hustle to full time hustle.
• 7:02
  Shannon Mattern: Yeah, my experience was that I was very scared to make the move.
• 7:06
  Shannon Mattern: And it was three years of me side hustling and it was started off doing freelance web design, so undercharging, over delivering, cannot figure out how to make enough money to replace my six figures that I'm making.
• 7:21
  Shannon Mattern: Let me try to scale, let me try to, like, make money teaching many people how to do it so that I'm not doing it.
• 7:27
  Shannon Mattern: That also, while it was fun and fulfilling, was not going to get me close to where I needed to go as fast as I, as I wanted it to.
• 7:35
  Shannon Mattern: The amount of effort I needed to put in up front to grow it as big as I would have needed to, you know, replace my paycheck and business expenses and, and, and that was going to be a longer lead time than I was really interested in.
• 7:50
  Shannon Mattern: So I really had to work on charging enough for my one on one services to, I'm like, oh, if I'm actually, like, charging, you know, 5,000 felt astronomical to me at the time for, like, a highly functional website.
• 8:09
  Tom: Right.
• 8:09
  Shannon Mattern: It's so funny to think of that.
• 8:11
  Tom: It converts leads.
• 8:12
  Shannon Mattern: If I just even charged that I could make this happen faster, you know, whatever.
• 8:17
  Shannon Mattern: So it was about, it was three years from inception to leaving my day job.
• 8:24
  Shannon Mattern: And I actually gave a seven month notice to my boss.
• 8:27
  Shannon Mattern: I had like been promoted up into an executive role at the time.
• 8:32
  Tom: Okay.
• 8:32
  Tom: That's fair.
• 8:33
  Shannon Mattern: I was like, we were in a, like a budgeting meeting for the following fiscal year and all these projects were being planned that I was going to be spearheading, and I was like, well it's now or never to tell them that I'm not going to be here to run these projects, so I kind of want to say something now.
• 8:51
  Shannon Mattern: And so, I did and I finished out my seven months and I never thought for one second about taking it back and saying, no, I'm not going.
• 9:02
  Tom: Mm.
• 9:02
  Shannon Mattern: And that just kind of gave me the I don't know that like runway to really be like, okay, this is happening.
• 9:09
  Shannon Mattern: I have my safety net for a while.
• 9:10
  Shannon Mattern: This is happening.
• 9:11
  Shannon Mattern: I'm super excited for it.
• 9:13
  Shannon Mattern: And also I was like, I have some goals.
• 9:16
  Shannon Mattern: I want to be able to like hit that number two or three times that replaces my day job income before I quit.
• 9:22
  Shannon Mattern: fully cut the cord and go on my own.
• 9:25
  Shannon Mattern: And what I, what I realized is like, I should always bet on me.
• 9:28
  Shannon Mattern: Like, I am my
• 9:30
  Tom: Yes.
• 9:30
  Shannon Mattern: best bet.
• 9:31
  Shannon Mattern: How much more can I create when I'm not dividing my time between giving them 40, 50 hours, 60 hours a week?
• 9:42
  Shannon Mattern: could put back into my own thing for sure.
• 9:46
  Tom: So once you left and you had that 50 60 hours to put into you, what did the business do at that point?
• 9:54
  Tom: Curious.
• 9:55
  Shannon Mattern: I went into hustle fear overdrive mode.
• 9:58
  Shannon Mattern: So, it maintained its revenue and I probably doubled my efforts And I can look back at the time and be like, oh, that's what you were doing.
• 10:10
  Shannon Mattern: I was so scared still.
• 10:11
  Shannon Mattern: Because I hadn't really realized that I would be okay no matter what.
• 10:17
  Shannon Mattern: I'm like, oh, I went into I'm gonna learn every marketing sales strategy from everyone out there teaching.
• 10:24
  Shannon Mattern: I'm gonna sign up for all the courses.
• 10:26
  Shannon Mattern: I'm gonna do everything everybody says, times 10.
• 10:29
  Shannon Mattern: I expected everything to work right away, you know, like that launch mentality, right?
• 10:34
  Shannon Mattern: Like if I do this and I follow this process and I spend all this time in a vacuum by myself, building this thing.
• 10:41
  Shannon Mattern: And then I launch it out into the world.
• 10:43
  Shannon Mattern: It's going to, you know, overnight it's going to work.
• 10:47
  Shannon Mattern: And so I did all of that.
• 10:50
  Shannon Mattern: Thank goodness that the foundation I had laid that was not so hustly and overworky and stressful was like paying the bills while I was off doing who knows what, trying to create a security for myself.
• 11:04
  Shannon Mattern: I already had it, but yeah, no.
• 11:06
  Shannon Mattern: I kind of went off.
• 11:07
  Shannon Mattern: the rails for about six months to a year in terms of my my hustle because I was terrified.
• 11:14
  Shannon Mattern: And looking back, I'm like, I didn't need to do any of that.
• 11:18
  Shannon Mattern: Like all of the things that I had put in place were working.
• 11:21
  Shannon Mattern: I was making the money I needed to make and I did end up burning myself out.
• 11:27
  Shannon Mattern: And that's when I had to take a look and be like, we have to fundamentally change our expectations of like what success means and also timelines for things to happen.
• 11:42
  Shannon Mattern: Like I was expecting instant results from my efforts and not being patient and planting seeds and waiting for them to come to fruition.
• 11:51
  Shannon Mattern: So
• 11:51
  Tom: Yeah.
• 11:51
  Shannon Mattern: It was interesting year that I'm like, oh, okay, so I went through that and now I know how to help other people when they're in it or before they get into it, that it's a risk of you know, you never know what that feels like when you leave your job until you do it.
• 12:10
  Tom: Yeah.
• 12:11
  Shannon Mattern: And you're like, Okay, now I, I go into overwork when I'm scared, and that's my, that's my default, so, but
• 12:17
  Tom: Yeah.
• 12:17
  Tom: Yeah.
• 12:17
  Tom: I like that.
• 12:18
  Tom: What you said too.
• 12:19
  Shannon Mattern: had a lot of fun, you know, at the same,
• 12:21
  Tom: Yeah.
• 12:22
  Shannon Mattern: of fun.
• 12:22
  Shannon Mattern: I enjoyed it, but yeah.
• 12:24
  Tom: I like what you said about setting expectations as well and realistic timelines.
• 12:29
  Tom: Cause I think a lot of people see Instagram and all the crap that's out there in terms of, you know, burn the boats, you know, go all into your side hustle, just, you know, do it right now.
• 12:40
  Tom: And I think that's terrible advice.
• 12:42
  Tom: Number one, I think it's very irresponsible because it takes 10 years to become an overnight success.
• 12:48
  Tom: And nobody knows like what you did to build up to that point where you were in quote overnight success.
• 12:56
  Tom: And I think that's, it's important.
• 12:58
  Tom: And when you're coaching other women, entrepreneurs, they're web designers.
• 13:03
  Tom: Do they come to you before they quit their day job or like, where do they typically come into your world?
• 13:10
  Shannon Mattern: Both really, like some of them are side hustling.
• 13:13
  Shannon Mattern: The majority of them have been doing, like running their web design business for like at least a year, and they come to us because they're like doing what I was doing, like burning the candle at both ends and just trying to do everything and understanding that like, this is actually harder.
• 13:34
  Shannon Mattern: I'm working harder than I did at my day job.
• 13:37
  Shannon Mattern: And I have less freedom than I did at my day job and I've created turned, I've put my clients and I've kind of turned my clients into my bosses.
• 13:46
  Shannon Mattern: Like I didn't shed the employee mindset.
• 13:48
  Shannon Mattern: So they leave their day job and then they recreate it.
• 13:54
  Shannon Mattern: Times 10 with how they structure things and how they think of their clients.
• 13:59
  Shannon Mattern: And that's really when they come to us and also while they're still working their day job to figure out like, cause they're still doing that.
• 14:06
  Shannon Mattern: And they're like, how do I manage this when I have like a real boss?
• 14:09
  Shannon Mattern: And it's like, you have to fundamentally shift how you think about all of this.
• 14:12
  Tom: Yeah.
• 14:13
  Tom: And is that one of the first things that you work with people on is just mindset of a business owner?
• 14:18
  Shannon Mattern: I call it like a benevolent bait and switch, right?
• 14:20
  Shannon Mattern: Because I'm like, I'm going to teach you all of the systems and processes for running your web design business, how to package, price, market, and sell that stuff, yeah, there's a few strategies we teach that maybe are a little unconventional.
• 14:33
  Shannon Mattern: But the biggest thing that needs to change is your belief about what you're allowed to have, how you're allowed to run your business, so it's mindset all of the way.
• 14:44
  Shannon Mattern: And that's why I call it like a benevolent bait and switch, because I'm going to get you on like systems processes and what, and whatever, but in order for you to actually implement those, you have to notice how you're thinking now and change it.
• 14:57
  Tom: Yeah.
• 14:58
  Tom: And would you say that most of the clients that you work with are heart led entrepreneurs and that's why they, they come to you.
• 15:05
  Tom: Yeah, cool.
• 15:07
  Tom: And so what's the biggest issue that you're finding with your clientele that are trading the side hustle for full time hustle, getting rid of the day job and, and all that.
• 15:17
  Shannon Mattern: They don't think they can charge quote unquote that much.
• 15:21
  Tom: Okay.
• 15:22
  Shannon Mattern: Whatever that number is.
• 15:24
  Shannon Mattern: Because they have been conditioned that someone else deems what their salary, what they're worth when they set a salary and pay them at their corporate job.
• 15:37
  Shannon Mattern: Like the market says that this is what you're worth based on how employers hire and decide to pay and so they take that someone else gets to decide what i'm worth mentality into their business and so all their think they're I call it like employee mindset and expense mindset, right?
• 15:59
  Shannon Mattern: It's like they really they see like
• 16:04
  Tom: someone
• 16:04
  Shannon Mattern: else gets to determine all of this for me and also like this my clients they think that their clients don't have the resources and that like, oh, if I charge money for this, I'm taking something from them.
• 16:20
  Shannon Mattern: They have less, I have more, it doesn't make them feel good.
• 16:24
  Shannon Mattern: And so they're trying to figure out what like feels like, what feels right without ripping people off and taking advantage of them and being greedy and all this stuff and I'm like, I have to help you just play on a completely different playing field.
• 16:38
  Shannon Mattern: That's just that's like a one way of thinking it's not the way the world works.
• 16:44
  Tom: That's interesting too.
• 16:46
  Tom: And I have to admit, I probably had that mindset as well in terms of the market says, this is what you should charge for your services.
• 16:53
  Tom: Like when I had my fitness business, this is what personal trainers charge.
• 16:57
  Tom: So you need to charge the same thing.
• 16:59
  Tom: And until I got the coaching and shifted the mindset into, yeah, that's might be what everybody else is charging, but why does it have to be what I charge and and is that the best for the client as well?
• 17:13
  Tom: And the way I was charging was 10 sessions at a time and you get the 11th for free.
• 17:18
  Tom: And which is ridiculous because you can't make any change in only 10 sessions.
• 17:23
  Tom: And I'm sure it's the same in many other different businesses that you're not doing the biz, you're not doing the client a favor if you're undercharging either.
• 17:33
  Shannon Mattern: Yeah, and we talked about this when you were on my podcast it's like, if you're trying to sell a website, and you're trying to sell, I'm gonna build you a website with five pages and this automation and this thing, then so is everybody else, and now you're competing on price.
• 17:51
  Shannon Mattern: And the lowest price wins, usually.
• 17:53
  Shannon Mattern: But if I'm selling, if I'm learning, what do you, what are your goals?
• 17:58
  Shannon Mattern: What do you really want?
• 17:59
  Shannon Mattern: What can you create as a result of me building you, what you need to create the outcomes that you really ultimately want?
• 18:10
  Shannon Mattern: And if that's what I'm selling, and that's how I'm interacting with you during the sales process and ultimately I'm like, here's what's possible for you, here's what I'm going to create in order for you to get there, and here's how it all is going to work, and here's what that looks like to work together.
• 18:29
  Shannon Mattern: That's a whole different conversation than here's a five page website logo branding and an email integration.
• 18:35
  Tom: And then you could do yourself on the wrist or whatever, you know,
• 18:39
  Shannon Mattern: Yeah, exactly.
• 18:40
  Shannon Mattern: And you don't know what you don't know, and I do as the designer.
• 18:43
  Shannon Mattern: I know all the comments, I know all the mistakes you're gonna make, and all the things that you're not gonna think about when you go to build it yourself.
• 18:49
  Shannon Mattern: And I'm gonna ask you really important questions that help you, actually, use this tool that I'm going to build for you.
• 18:57
  Shannon Mattern: And so when I think about selling that and I'm selling it at a price that's sustainable for me to offer, meaning I don't have to overwork, I don't have to work with 10 other clients at the same time, I can give you more attention.
• 19:10
  Shannon Mattern: I can invest in better tools and education and things to level up my knowledge because I'm charging appropriately.
• 19:19
  Shannon Mattern: I'm able to like deliver you a super high level service and you are making a decision through how you decide to spend your money about what you're committed to and what you really want for yourself and how much you value yourself.
• 19:34
  Shannon Mattern: And so that's kind of where it's like, it is for us to undercharge, does our clients a disservice, because we're basically saying to them like, I don't think you're capable of making this important to you.
• 19:48
  Shannon Mattern: I don't think you're capable of like, the resources and the commitment to the table for you to go get what you want.
• 19:54
  Shannon Mattern: I need to save you and treat you like you're helpless and lower my price to help you because you're not powerful enough to make this happen on your own.
• 20:09
  Shannon Mattern: And like, that's, that's not a win win win.
• 20:12
  Shannon Mattern: That's like, oh, I need money.
• 20:14
  Shannon Mattern: I'm going to lower my price down so that I can make sure I get enough money for you to cover my needs.
• 20:20
  Shannon Mattern: And I don't think that's not win win win.
• 20:22
  Tom: Yeah, well it's not sustainable.
• 20:24
  Tom: And the other thing too is if you're not, this is worth repeating what you said, you know, when you charge appropriately, you're able to up level yourself and serve your clients better through the education and learning that you do.
• 20:38
  Tom: To better at your craft.
• 20:40
  Tom: And I don't, and I don't think I've heard anybody say that quite, quite that way before, and it's totally makes sense because the better you are one, the quicker you'll be at it, the better results the client's going to get.
• 20:54
  Tom: And you're going to have better freedom and it's just better all around.
• 20:59
  Tom: And we were talking last week on your show too, about, you know, the time element and that a lot of the folks that you work with and the lot of folks that I work with as well, don't charge enough per hour because it's so easy for them to do what they do in that hour time.
• 21:17
  Tom: So, how do you address that with your clients and get them to change that mindset as well?
• 21:23
  Shannon Mattern: Oh, yeah, like untying time for money is a huge thing that we do and the a couple parts to it one It's like it's so easy for you because of all the time you've put into making it easy So don't discount that you've put a lot of time energy and effort into making it easy.
• 21:42
  Shannon Mattern: Just because it's easy doesn't mean it's not massively valuable, you know, to your client.
• 21:49
  Shannon Mattern: So I'm just thinking about a scenario like if I'm about to do a sales promotion and my website is not working and it takes you 10 minutes to go in there and figure it out because you know exactly where to look and how to diagnose that and how to fix it and we're like, back up and running.
• 22:06
  Shannon Mattern: That's so valuable to me as a business owner to have you in my back pocket and pay you to, well, to know my stuff inside and out enough that you can just come in and, and fix those things for me, you know?
• 22:23
  Shannon Mattern: And so it's like the value of what you do, stop thinking about, you know, How your employer set it up for you or how we were taught like, oh, guess what?
• 22:32
  Shannon Mattern: This is what I what I am going to pay you by the hour, it's about what your clients are able to create as a result of working with you as a result of like committing to their business at at the level that they need to to like make their business run easier.
• 22:53
  Shannon Mattern: So I always think it's, think about the long term value in the results for your clients, not about, oh this took me five minutes.
• 23:00
  Shannon Mattern: Well it took you like five years to learn how to get it to take five minutes.
• 23:04
  Tom: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 23:06
  Tom: There's a, the old story, I don't know if it's true or not, but you know, there's a ship, you know, is at dock and the engine isn't working and you know, big shifts at dock, they don't move, they're getting charged thousand, tens of thousands of dollars an hour just to lay there at dock.
• 23:23
  Tom: And so they called the maintenance guy up.
• 23:25
  Tom: Guy comes up, looks at the engine, takes his hammer out, taps on one piece, and then the engine works.
• 23:32
  Tom: Sends a bill to the captain, it's 25,000.
• 23:35
  Tom: Kevin's like 25,000.
• 23:38
  Tom: All you did was just tap your hammer.
• 23:39
  Tom: So yeah, but it took me 10 years to find out where to tap that hammer.
• 23:44
  Shannon Mattern: Yeah.
• 23:44
  Tom: And I think that mimics exactly like everything that we were just talking about and it's the same in your business.
• 23:52
  Tom: Same in my business.
• 23:53
  Tom: It's all that time and effort that you learn your craft that has so much value.
• 23:59
  Tom: And if you're not charging appropriately for it, then you're doing everybody disservice.
• 24:04
  Shannon Mattern: Yeah, and like on the flip side you think about like, Oh, like the client just, like how, like the opportunity cost of not working with that person, right?
• 24:15
  Shannon Mattern: The person who can fast track things for you, who can save you hours of time.
• 24:20
  Shannon Mattern: Like, think about what you can do with all of the time that you get back, when you have some time.
• 24:27
  Shannon Mattern: experts in your back pocket and when you're working with people who can see things that you can't see, like, you don't know what you don't know, so you don't even know what to look for.
• 24:36
  Shannon Mattern: Like, how would you even know that the hammer's the right tool and that you have to bang it somewhere?
• 24:42
  Shannon Mattern: Like, sometimes you just don't know that and so, you know, from the client's perspective, being open to, like, I'm hiring people not to just do what I know I need, know I need them to do.
• 24:57
  Shannon Mattern: Be open to like, there might be so many things that I don't know that like, working with the right person could fast track me.
• 25:02
  Tom: Yeah.
• 25:03
  Tom: Yeah.
• 25:04
  Tom: That's such a great lesson.
• 25:05
  Tom: And I see that over and over again in business as well as when you hire the right people, whether it's a contractor or an employee and they just do the right stuff and they just make everything easier and they bring their own knowledge and effort into the equation.
• 25:21
  Tom: It just makes everything so much better.
• 25:24
  Tom: And I think that's, that's definitely leading from the heart.
• 25:26
  Tom: So that's, that's amazing.
• 25:28
  Tom: So Shannon, how can people learn more about what you do and the academy that you host?
• 25:33
  Shannon Mattern: Yeah, you can just go to webdesigneracademy.com everything that we do is over there.
• 25:39
  Shannon Mattern: If you click on the podcast link, you'll find our Profitable Web Designer podcast, which you were a guest on and we had a really great conversation about sales.
• 25:48
  Shannon Mattern: So that's the best place to connect with me and find all the other ways to connect with me.
• 25:54
  Tom: Okay, awesome.
• 25:55
  Tom: Well, we'll put that into the show notes so that it makes it very easy for people to find as well.
• 26:01
  Tom: And Shannon, this was just a great conversation.
• 26:04
  Tom: You're just so easy to talk to.
• 26:05
  Tom: And I enjoyed being on your show and I'm glad that you were on our show as well.
• 26:09
  Tom: And so thank you so much for taking the time and sharing your knowledge with everybody here.
• 26:14
  Shannon Mattern: Thank you so much for having me.
• 26:15
  Shannon Mattern: It was a pleasure.
• 26:16
  Tom: Absolutely.
• 26:17
  Tom: And to our show listeners and watching those watching today on, on YouTube, we really do appreciate it.
• 26:23
  Tom: So make sure you're checking out everything that Shannon's doing.
• 26:26
  Tom: We're going to put a.
• 26:27
  Tom: Again, all those links down in the show notes.
• 26:29
  Tom: And also if you could do me a very solid favor and do what other smart and considerate listeners are doing, and that is give us a rating and a review so that we get the message out that you can have a heart led business and make a profit.
• 26:44
  Tom: So until next time, lead with your heart.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to the Heart Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.