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“Go to Pod Save America 3-0-3-3-0.” (Debate recap special!) · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Tommy Vitor.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: We're all here for the big.
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: a big debate analysis before we get to that a
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: reminder that our Los Angeles live show is taking place
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: at the Greek on August 17th with performances from Maggie
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: Rogers Amanda Seals best host and Jim James proceeds from
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: the show will be donated to organizations at the forefront
• 0:40
  Speaker 4: of the fight to protect the vote across America so
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: grab your tickets now at crooked.com slash the Greek also
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: we have a great new episode of With Friends Like
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: These that's going out on Friday you can hear an
• 0:51
  Speaker 4: interview that Anna Marie Cox had earlier this week with E.
• 0:53
  Speaker 4: Jean Carroll it's really powerful and you should subscribe to
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: the show and be on the lookout for it.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: America has just endured two straight nights of Democratic primary
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: debates hosted by CNN in Detroit. For the first reaction,
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: we go to Colorado Governor John Hickenlooper.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: And what a night.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: I've loved it.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: He's literally the only one. I was going to say.
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: Everyone else was like, just a lonely opinion from John Hickenlooper.
• 1:21
  Speaker 5: I was sitting in bed last night, like, trying to
• 1:23
  Speaker 5: calm down, watch a little Netflix, and I was like, man,
• 1:25
  Speaker 5: that sucked.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: It didn't feel good. What did you watch? What did
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: we watch? I don't remember. Something boring on purpose.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: I watched John Wick 3.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Oh, how's that?
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: The plot's hard to follow if you're looking at Twitter.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we watched two Broad Cities first to kind of
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: get a laugh. We've been watching Schitt's Creek. It's fantastic.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: Anyway, we're going to get to why the second night
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: felt so horrible. Let's start with the first night.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: What'd you watch, Pundit?
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: Let's start with the first night, which featured the following candidates.
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Pete Buttigieg, Beto O'Rourke, Amy Klobuchar,
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: John Hickenlooper, Tim Ryan, John Delaney, Marian Williamson, and Steve Bullock.
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: The evening began with a feisty debate about Medicare for
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: All that pit Warren and Sanders against John Delaney.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Here's a clip.
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: Congressman Delaney just referred to it as bad policy, and
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: previously he has called the idea political suicide that will
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: just get President Trump reelected.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: What do you say to Congressman Delaney?
• 2:19
  Speaker 5: You're wrong.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: You're wrong.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, he's wrong.
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: All right, who do we think made the better case
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: for their health care plan on the first night and why?
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Warren. You think Warren?
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't even– I think Bernie did a very
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: good job, but Warren was able to explain the policy
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: in easily understood terms, but she also did it by
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: telling stories about who it would affect and how.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: I think she also– her point– she kept coming back
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: to the point about insurance companies– and what everyone really
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: hates about insurance companies, which is you're filling out all
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: this paperwork, you're calling them 50 times to try to
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: get something paid for, and their whole business model is
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: to take in more in premiums than they pay out
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: in actual health care, and the reason they make you
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: do all that paperwork is because.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: They're trying to screw you.
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: Why do you think that the non-Medicare for all folks
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: are having such a hard time making the argument for
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: their plans?
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: So I actually think what's happening, I think you saw
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: sort of, the debate, like kind of, it left the
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: real substance of the policy difference between the Medicare for
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: all advocates and the Medicare for all who wanted public
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: option advocates. And so John Delaney's broadside against Medicare for all,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: I think is very kind of, it is using Republican
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: talking points, and it is sort of attacking the idea
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: of doing something this big. And the response from Elizabeth
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Warren sort of attacked him on that level. But there
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: was no real substantive debate about Why switching to a
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Medicare for all system and the cost efficiencies that come
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: with that and the access that comes with that and
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: the fact that you remove it from employers and businesses
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: and from the backs of individuals is a better approach
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: than keeping the private system and having a public option
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: in place. You kind of allied that debate entirely. And
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: so then it becomes a debate about values. And the
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: debate about values is advocating for Medicare for all. You
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: can just take such a strong position and say it
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: so plainly. And you're left arguing with moderates saying, wait, wait, wait,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: we should do something. more practical, less expansive, go not
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: as far. I mean, I think Delaney's argument was not
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: even values-based.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: It was political.
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: And there's a reasonable case to be made that taking
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: people's private insurance away is incredibly unpopular. There's significant evidence
• 4:38
  Speaker 5: to suggest that. That's just a hard case to make
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: to a Democratic primary audience. And the rejoinder from Warren
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: at all, as you said, was, I don't run for
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: president to do small things. I run for president to
• 4:49
  Speaker 5: do big things. And you kind of sound petty and
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: small in that moment when you're responding to that. I'd
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: say on top of that, Delaney was kind of annoying
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: in the way he went after it. It just sort
• 4:59
  Speaker 5: of like didn't land well.
• 5:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, I, I did cringe at both Delaney and
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: Bullock saying things that did sound like Republican talking points
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: that I don't think were fair. Delaney talked about, uh,
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: taking healthcare away, taking healthcare away, not, not changing your
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: health insurance, but taking healthcare away, which no democratic plan
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: is taking healthcare away. It's just false. Um, and telling
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: half the country, quote, your insurance is illegal, which is like, okay.
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: And then Steve Bullock, this is wishlist economics. It used
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: to just be Republicans who wanted to repeal and replace.
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: Wishlist economics isn't a thing, right? No one else had
• 5:37
  Speaker 5: heard that phrase before?
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: No, that's like some consultant from the 90s fed him
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: a line. A play on voodoo economics? This would be cute.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: To do on stage. It's a classic example of something
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: we all should keep in mind in our daily lives,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: that a brainstorm can get out of hand. And inside
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: of a brainstorm, something can make sense. It's a trunk.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: We have a trunk on our hands. Wishlist economics is
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: a classic trunk. You talk for a long time, you
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: end up at something, but if you didn't see the
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: steps to get there, you sound.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Like a dweeb.
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, I think the heart of this
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: debate where there's real differences and it's fair to go
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: back and forth on is the taxes and how much
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: this costs, right? And you sort of got there, but,
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: you know, and it's happened both nights, the non-Medicare for
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: all people are trying to say, okay, well, Bernie at
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: least is being honest that this could be an, you know,
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: up to $ 30 trillion plans and it would require tax
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: increases on anyone making over $ 29, 000 a year. Now what
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: they say is, the taxes go up but you're not
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: gonna pay anything in premiums anymore you know that's still
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: that's still an argument to have and you know warren
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: was uh... they tried to pin warren down on this
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: both on stage and then chris matthews did later which
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: is like but there is going to be a tax
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: increase now bernie says yes but whatever warren was like
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: well yes but total costs will go down which is
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: a true thing to say but the only thing you
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: i mean it's funny that no one made this case
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: if you're your employers paying for your health care coverage
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: and your employer's contributing to it, and suddenly they don't
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: anymore because the government is, and now you have to
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: pay more in taxes yourself to get that single payer,
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: you're not going to really feel like you're paying less
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: in premiums because your employer was covering a lot of that.
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: And there are some people whose health care costs are
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: less than the amount their taxes will be increased. And
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: every policy has winners and losers. And it's incumbent upon...
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: the advocates of that policy to make the argument for
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: why the winning outstrips the losing. But I think the
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: overall point here is there is a legitimate good faith
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: debate to be had about Medicare for all, as advocated
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: by Sanders and Warren, and some of the other plans
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: out there. It's just you can't have that debate if
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: the chosen fighter to make the other case is John Delaney,
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: who is essentially a rich guy who paid millions of
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: dollars out of his own pocket to be on stage.
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: He has raised almost as much money as anyone in
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: this campaign because he's given it to himself to buy
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: Facebook ads to be on the stage. And so we
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: were sort of denied the health care plant debate we
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: deserved because Biden and Harris had different plans. We're on
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: the other stage. And Beto O'Rourke and Pete, who have
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: different plans that sort of split the difference between– or
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: I guess Beto's plan splits the difference and Pete is
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: for a public option. They were doing everything they possibly
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: could to avoid getting in the middle of this fight
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: because they had no incentive to do so. And so
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: we didn't really have the real conversation about the puts
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: and the takes and the tradeoffs that come with these
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: various things. And also, last thing, you can't have the
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: debate in a vacuum. Because the amount of money you spend,
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: the amount of political capital you spend on health care
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: affects the other elements of your agenda.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: And this is why I think it's really annoying that
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: the non-Medicare for All candidates continue to use the force
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: you off your private insurance, take away your private insurance language,
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: because it's misleading. Under Medicare for All, your private insurance
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: becomes a government plan and it's more generous. It's not
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: like anyone's really going to lose anything. There are costs,
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: and people should be debating those costs and those trade-offs,
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: but that language is pretty lazy, though it's an easy
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: political hit.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is frustrating. I do think that was the
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: look Elizabeth Warren's face had, was like, I can't believe
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: that there are so many more serious candidates who support
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: a public option, and I get to basically punch the
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Monopoly man.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: In the face.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Her face said, I have been blessed tonight. Um, but yeah,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: and you know, it's funny too, you can kind of like,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: this is one of the reasons I think it's very
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: good that this would be the, ideally the last time
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: the candidates are split into two nights, because I do
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: think that there were other arguments made in the second
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: part of the health care debate on night two that
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: might have been a good part of the more substantive
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: and I think ultimately better debate we had in night one.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: Because the debate I think hinged on some of these
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: attacks that aren't necessarily fair, we didn't get into the
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: actual substance. I'm not sure that Yang in night two
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: made a strong defense of Medicare for all and what
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: it would mean for people and why it's a good
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: thing to separate insurance from employment that I think should
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: be part of the substantive case that the single-payer advocates make.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: But of course, that didn't come up in night one.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: It only came up in night two.
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: So a big theme in the analysis of the first
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: night was that it pit the most moderate candidates in
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: the race, like Delaney, Hickenlooper, and Bullock, against the two
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: most progressive candidates, Sanders and Warren. That led to a
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: debate over pragmatism versus idealism that gave Warren two of
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: the biggest lines of the night.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Here's the clip.
• 10:42
  Speaker 7: You know, I don't understand why anybody goes to all
• 10:45
  Speaker 7: the trouble of running for president of the United States
• 10:48
  Speaker 7: just to talk about what we really can't do and
• 10:50
  Speaker 7: shouldn't fight for.
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: Do we also have the clip of when she talked
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: about not being why we can't be afraid?
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Let's play that one, too.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I get it.
• 11:02
  Speaker 7: There is a lot at stake and people are scared.
• 11:06
  Speaker 7: But we can't choose a candidate we don't believe in
• 11:09
  Speaker 7: just because we're too scared to do anything else. And
• 11:13
  Speaker 7: we can't ask other people to vote for a candidate
• 11:16
  Speaker 7: we don't believe in. Democrats win when we figure out
• 11:21
  Speaker 7: what is right and we get out there and fight
• 11:24
  Speaker 7: for it. I am not afraid. And for Democrats to win,
• 11:29
  Speaker 7: you can't be afraid either.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: We talk a lot about electability. That's her electability argument.
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: And that is going to be probably the central argument
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: in the homestretch of this race as we get down
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: to whether it's Elizabeth Warren or anyone else who's more
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: progressive versus Joe Biden or possibly anyone else who's an
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: alternative to Joe Biden. What did we think of Warren's
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: argument there? And Did any of the moderate candidates make
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: a decent counter-argument to that?
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: Okay, let's just do the first one. I mean, look,
• 12:01
  Speaker 5: I think it's a good line. It's good sentiment. It's
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: hard to argue with. There's a pretty big straw man
• 12:07
  Speaker 5: buried in there. And there's also the fact that we
• 12:10
  Speaker 5: should debate now the upsides and the downsides of various
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: policy proposals and candidates. And we are fooling ourselves if
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: we don't have a tough conversation, not just about what
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: we believe in, But the realities of those plans, their
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: impact on people and what Republicans will say about them. Yes,
• 12:28
  Speaker 5: I agree with Pete that we shouldn't worry about what
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: Donald Trump will say. Donald Trump will lie. But that
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: doesn't mean we should be blind to the political realities
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: of the things we're taking on as a party. It's
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: like we've gotten fucking crazy.
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: We shouldn't worry about what Donald Trump says. We shouldn't
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: worry about what Republicans say. We shouldn't worry about what
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: the insurance companies say. We should worry about what voters say.
• 12:49
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: There you go. Because we are trying to.
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: Crazy talk.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: We are trying to win voters. So, like, don't make... We've.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: Said this a million times on this podcast, what Pete said,
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: you know, which is they're going to call you socialists
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: no matter what, so don't base your policy on them.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: That's true. Do base your policy, at least in part,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: on what the American people want.
• 13:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I just want to wake up in October of
• 13:11
  Speaker 5: next year and see the most devastating ads possible run
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: on purely policy grounds.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: That would be a bummer if they were accurate.
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: I think there... it is worth exploring the premise of
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: the question, which is, as is discussed, pragmatism is tied
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: to winning and idealism is tied to losing. And there
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: is not a lot of political history, recent or otherwise,
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: that says that trimming your sales is a great strategy
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: to win elections. And so I think the pragmatism versus idealism,
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: is it a very important governing discussion, right? Like what
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: is the best policy we can get through the system?
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: What are the consequences politically within governance of trying to
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: push for Medicare for all versus middle-class tax cut versus anti-corruption.
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: What can the system bear in terms of actual implementation?
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: Because the Obamacare, which is a fraction of the complication
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: of Medicare for all in terms of the number of
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: people it affects, was a huge undertaking to get done.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: So trying to do Bernie's Medicare plan in a four-year
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: transition period is going to be hard, and that's worth
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: exploring that. But just in terms of the pure politics,
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: the idea that middle-of-the-road pragmatism means winning. I think we
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: should not accept that premise.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. So I think that part
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: of the problem is right. Also, idealism versus pragmatism also
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: becomes a stand-in for left versus center and popular amongst
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Democrats and broadly popular. But of course, that's not true.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: There are what have become mainstream democratic positions previously thought
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: of as too idealistic or too liberal, things like a
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: wealth tax, that are now broadly popular amongst Democrats, Republicans,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: and independents. To me, though, what I found really important
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: about that moment, what Elizabeth Warren said there, and I
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: think ultimately if she is the nominee, it will have
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: been a pivotal moment, or at least shows the argument
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: that she was going to make to put herself on
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: a path to becoming the nominee, is there's something undergirding
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: what she's saying. She's saying, you like me. You like
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: the policies I promote. You think I'm smart. You think
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: I'm ahead of some of these other people. You know,
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: you tell posters, I may not, you know, implied in
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: the polls is I may not be electable, but you
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: like what kind of president I would be. I'm a
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: leader on policy. Take the trust you have in me
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: there and trust me that you don't need to be
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: afraid of making me the nominee. Trust my judgment on
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: the election that you trust that I have on policy
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: and we'll win. I mean, and I think whether or
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: not that's true, I don't know. but I do think
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: it is the first time she has head-on said, you
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: like me and you think I'm smart and you think
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: you can trust me on these incredibly important questions. Come
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: with me the last part of the trip.
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's an electability argument because what she's saying is,
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: I think it is easier to win with everyone backing
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: a candidate they truly believe in than to win with
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: a candidate that we are only backing because we believe
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: that they're the most electable person. And she's making the
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: argument that that passion, that intensity... will help bring out
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: more voters than purely focusing on who I think can win.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: And so that's her argument. And again, it's we don't know.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: And it's also, you know, you see it in her conduct, right?
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Like she is incredibly feisty and energetic during that debate.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: You know, she stays to go on television until all
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: hours of the night. She does the selfie. She stays online.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: She's like everything she is doing is signaling that she is.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: But she is fully committed and vested in the fight
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: and confident in every step that she's making and trying
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: to inspire people to have the same confidence.
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: So Delaney's response was, you know, I think Democrats win
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: when we run on real solutions, not impossible promises, when
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: we run on things that are workable, not fairytale economics.
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: So the whole exchange actually reminded me of exchanges that
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: we used to have, that Barack Obama used to have
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: with Hillary Clinton in 2007.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: And Bill Clinton. And Bill Clinton. And it just.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: And, Lovett, you should talk about this, too, being on
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: the other side of it. But you just knew that
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: we had her. When one person in a primary, one
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: candidate in a primary is arguing for, like, you know,
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: idealism and fight for what you believe in, and the
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: other candidate's response is just constantly throwing cold water on
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: that and saying, like, you know, she used to say
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: Barack Obama's giving people false hope. You're making promises you
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: can't keep. I'm doing real solutions. I think that was
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: one of her slogans.
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: Bernie used this exact argument very effectively against her. He
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: almost won with this line of attack. I mean, the
• 17:38
  Speaker 5: challenge everyone's going to have to have is the, yeah,
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: I totally agree. Trimming your sales is not an effective
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: governing strategy. It hasn't seemed to be an effective political strategy.
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: I'm trying to hold that thought side by side in
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: my head with polling that says like 66% of Democrats
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: don't want to lose their private insurance tax.
• 17:58
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: So it's like, how do we or is it Democrats
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: or is it people? People. Sorry. People overall don't want
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: to lose their private insurance. Like, how do we balance
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: those things? I know it's very hard.
• 18:06
  Speaker 8: No.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: And that's what I'm saying.
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: It was like the trick for the moderates is I
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: think there's a case to be made for the moderates.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: But it's it's tough to make that case from the standpoint.
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: This other candidate is promising you something that you can't have.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Believe less.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: You know, like I think one thing I think you
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: can say is. one of the reasons the American people
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: are so cynical about politics is that politicians over and
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: over again have made all these promises and then the
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: election's over and they go to Washington and nothing gets
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: done because they over-promise things. And if we really want
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: to make progress, then we have to persuade the American people.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: And, you know, it's a tough fight.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: And I'm going to fight for it, but I want
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: you to know that I'd rather take something than nothing
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: at the end of the day.
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a kind of like missing.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: You're getting into weeds.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: There's a missing sort of like I think Sherrod Brown
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: would have been the candidate to do this, right? Because
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: he would have... I don't think you can attack Sherrod
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Brown's bona fides, as they say, on being a progressive.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: I'm sure people would. There's a heartfelt argument to be
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: made by someone who supports a public option versus Medicare
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: for All saying, I believe in this, not because I
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: want to do less or help people less, because I think.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Well, Pete said that. Right.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: Well, Pete is the one who I think has made
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: the closest to that argument.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: Pete is the only person who is making the moderate
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: argument on moderate policy grounds, not political calculation.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Without calling himself a moderate.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: Which is why it's unfortunate we can't have a full
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: engagement of this debate, because no one wants to wear
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: the scarlet M for moderate. They just want to maintain
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: their electability, but also still seem super progressive on Twitter.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: But this is why you know, I think it is
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: important that we get to the next debate where we
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: can have everyone on stage, because the debate between Kamala
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: Harris about her plan, Joe Biden about his public option plan,
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: and then Bernie and Elizabeth is a much better debate
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: than John Delaney as a stand in for something else,
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: just doing RNC talking points.
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so quick takes just about some of the other candidates.
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: How do we think that Bernie did? He chose not
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: to go after Warren or contrast himself with Warren in
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: any way. He sort of locked arms with Warren, as
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: everyone's been saying, and sort of took on everyone else.
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: How did he do compared to the last debate? Did
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: he help himself?
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought he was good. I think he was
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: a little... sort of reticent or not really... He wasn't
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: really present in the first debate. In this debate, he
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: sort of reminded people of what they really liked about
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: him in 2016.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Right. There's a charm to Bernie, right? When he says,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: I wrote the damn bill. It's funny. You like him.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: I like that guy. I like that version of Bernie.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: And I thought it played.
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah. He was tough when he needed to be, but
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: he was more happy warrior.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: He's happy to dunk on Tim Ryan for a minute. Yeah.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I thought he did a great job.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: I had totally forgotten Tim Ryan was in that debate
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: until just now. Yeah.
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: Um, what do we think about Mayor Pete? We just
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: talked about that, you know, a bit. He came in
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: fundraising leader. He's fifth in the polls. Last debate he
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: was okay.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: I think he had a much stronger debate this time
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: than last time. Um, you know, to me there was
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: basically kind of, there was, there was Warren and Sanders
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: who I think both did well, but I think Warren
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: did herself more favors by I think making the same
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: similar arguments, but doing it with a bit more strength
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: than Bernie. Then you had the moderates kind of, I
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: feel like that was a bit of a hash, especially
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: because John Delaney stole the microphone and, And then, you know,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: put a hotel on Park Place. And then, but then
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: separate from the moderates, I think Pete was kind of
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: alone and didn't participate in that debate, but kind of
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: stood outside of it. Sometimes he does his punditry thing
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: where he says, here's what's really going on here. And
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: that has some value. But I thought he did well
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: for himself.
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: Everything about Pete is kind of soothing. You know, even
• 21:46
  Speaker 5: the way he talks, he was sort.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Of trying to calm it all down, talked a little slower.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I thought he did well. I think.
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: Someone prepped him after the last debate to jump in
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: more and make sure you get your message out there,
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: even if the question doesn't lead you there naturally. Because
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: there were a few moments he just jumped in and
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: sort of pivoted to his electability message or something else.
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: And I think sometimes it felt forced, but overall, it
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: made him more of a presence in this debate.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: And you know what he stands for more. So I
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: think it worked for him.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: Are you saying that it was a slightly awkward segue
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: when he took a question about climate change and turned
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: it into the political benefits of being a veteran running
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: against Donald Trump?
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I did think that was a little forced.
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: That's what I was talking about. That was a little
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: forced one. But, you know, then people hear that speech
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: and they're like, okay, well, now I know the message.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: He did it well. I mean, as far as that
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: transition goes, I was in.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Pete is at his very best when he's doing set pieces, right?
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: When he gets to his core message and The moderators
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: will not lead you there. And so he went there
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: on his own. And I think sort of both Pete
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: and Beto is the two other candidates on stage who
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: had qualified for the third debate were sort of sort
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: of their strategies. Their performance reflected that fact where they
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: didn't need to hit home runs. And they kind of
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: it felt like both of them were happy to be there.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: They took advantage of moments that came, but they were.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: sort of in Belichickian fashion, keeping their best plays in
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: the playbook until the game that mattered.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: I'm coming along for this.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: I thought you would be there.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: I was hoping it meant cheating by stealing the other
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: team's playbooks.
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: Pete had a video camera in the corner.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Sports! Beto did obviously way better in this debate than
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: the last debate.
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: I mean, that was a low bar, but also I
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: think I saw Beto work up there and I was
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: reminded why I liked him so much during the Senate campaign.
• 23:28
  Speaker 5: He's a thoughtful, decent, reasonable guy. I think He still
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: has a few too many canned lines. I don't need
• 23:34
  Speaker 5: to hear about the courage of his convictions ever again.
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: Please erase that from the prep book and throw it
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: in the trash.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: But other than that, I thought it was pretty good.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: I think you're right, Dan, that he didn't need as
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: much of it.
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: He needed to do better, which he did, but he
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: didn't need as much of a strategy in this debate.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: I think the next debate, he really has to figure
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: out where do I position myself among these candidates? And again,
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: the question he hasn't answered, why should I be president
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: at this moment in time? as opposed to all of
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: these other characters on stage. And I don't think he's
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: nailed that yet.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. He has an argument like they all do,
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: but why his argument is distinct has not been fully
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: fleshed out yet. And the September debate with nine or
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: ten other people will be.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: The moment when he has to do that. Has to
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: do with that.
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: Anyone else help themselves? Steve Bullock's first time up there.
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: How do we think Steve Bullock did?
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: As someone who expressed some frustration... that Steve Bullock was
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: not in the first debate because he is a sitting
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: governor from a red state.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you were as excited about him as you are
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: about the loop.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: I've got to stop being disappointed by these Mountain State governors.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: I just, you know, you fought so hard to get
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: to this stage. You complained so much about not being
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: on the last stage, and you came there with a
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: smile and a talking point and nothing else, and it showed.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: I'm very frustrated. It's like you have a you you
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: you could be if you were if there was more
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: substance there, an alternative to Biden, you could basically say,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: you know, I offer all the electability argument that Joe
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: Biden does, but I'm actually one in a red state
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: and I expanded Medicaid. I mean, there's a case that
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: he could be making. He just doesn't make it.
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he's got a really effective electability argument just kind
• 25:12
  Speaker 5: of sitting there and didn't totally come through for me.
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: I thought he did OK in the beginning was fine.
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: Dustin off some cobwebs. But then He got in this
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: exchange with Elizabeth Warren about when you use nuclear weapons
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: and just like exposed by the end of it that
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: he literally didn't know what he was talking about.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: She was like.
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: She was so happy to be in this exchange because
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: he just was literally getting it completely wrong.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Did he attack her?
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: The moderator asked the question of her and then I think...
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: Then Jake or whomever just asserted that he disagreed I
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: think was how.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: It went down.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: And he said... quote, we need to get back to
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: nuclear proliferation. That was the first fumble.
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: Then he was fumbled, so then he said, I mean
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: deep proliferation. He didn't quite land at non-proliferation.
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: What he wants is less nukes, everybody.
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: Look, Steve Bullock, and Lovett, I get why you were
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: excited about it. Steve Bullock on paper wins a red state,
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: still took on campaign finance reform, was able to expand
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: Medicaid with the Republican legislature. We have a lot of
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: friends in politics who've been, like, pushing Steve Bullock for
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: a long time.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: People who I respect are very, very smart.
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: And so I've always been sort of interested in Steve Bullock, too.
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: But when, I don't know, both when I interviewed him
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: and then when I, you know, saw him on stage,
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: it's just, it's a little underwhelming for me. And I
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: know some more of the moderate pundits out there thought
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: he did well. But I just, I didn't see it.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: It was a little too, like, there wasn't a lot
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: of substance there. It was just a lot of talking
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: points and not a lot of substance from Steve Bullock.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: He is a good, typical politician. And that's why I
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: think a lot of people who have been in politics
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: for a long time really like Steve Bullock. But this
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: is not a time that calls for typical politicians.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: That's a good way to put it.
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: Should we end the first night debate by talking about
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: Marianne Williamson, who gave a stirring answer on reparations and
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: ended up being the most Googled candidate following the debate?
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Think about Marianne Williamson. I feel like I want to take.
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: set aside the answer on reparations because I did think
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: she offered a lot of honesty and clarity about the history,
• 27:15
  Speaker 5: our nation's racial history and how awful it is and
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: how unresolved a lot of it is. Setting that aside,
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: I thought what frustrates me about Marianne Williamson is she
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: does a very good job of diagnosing the fact that
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: we can't beat Trump with just white papers and with
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: our brains. There has to be some emotion and some,
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: you know, sort of gut level connections with people. And
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: then she goes on to offer absolutely no path forward
• 27:38
  Speaker 5: for how to do that.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: And just dismisses everybody else up there. It's a bunch
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: of nerdy eggheads.
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: And it's offensive when you haven't given a fuck about
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: the Democratic Party until 15 minutes ago.
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, she definitely has much more of a, I've been
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: watching politics on TV and here are my opinions vibe.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Which is very Trumpian. After the debate, someone was like,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: now you're talking about foreign policy.
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: So you're like, what experience do you have? She's like, oh,
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: my family, they were world travelers. That was a verbatim quote, right?
• 28:03
  Speaker 5: Like that is disqualifying.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: I just also forget the fact that she's only been
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: paying attention to politics for 15 minutes. I don't think
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: she's been paying attention to the ongoing primary in which
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: she is currently a part because I am very sick, honestly,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: of her going on that stage and saying no one
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: on this stage is talking about love. No one's speaking
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: to the deeper emotional trauma that the country is going through.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Cory Booker does that.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he does it.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: It's his campaign. I just I find it very frustrating
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: because he's a far more serious and thoughtful candidate than
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: she is. And she literally pretends he doesn't exist because
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: she thought of the three sentences she wanted to say
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: on the debate. So that is very specific to her problem,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: but it really frustrates me. It really frustrates me.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: And now she's probably going to be in the next debate.
• 28:44
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know. Is she?
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: She's got the polling, yeah. I mean, look, and Fox
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: had this story afterwards. The other issue with Marianne Williamson
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: is because she hasn't got a lot of attention, because
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: she's been at 1%, she does have Some views that
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: are troubling.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Why is that, John? Why are they troubling?
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: So, you know, she did call mandatory vaccination Orwellian and draconian.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: She later apologized, pointed to statements in the past where
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: she said everyone should get their kids vaccinated.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: She did say that.
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: It's just it's very she's one of those people who
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: goes there and then doesn't go there. And so it's
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: sort of and then, you know, she's also talked a
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: lot about antidepressants being overprescribed. Though on that, she's also said,
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: of course, people should take antidepressants. I think they're overprescribed. So, like,
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: there's a debate to be had on these things, but
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: you dig into her views on medicine and stuff like that,
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: and you're like, it's not complete crazy, but it's troubling.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: She is not, like, it is unfair and ridiculous to
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: compare to Donald Trump. They're, like, basically opposite people. But
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: there is this element of a person... with no experience
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: and seemingly limited knowledge pontificating for years.
• 29:47
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: On what is happening in the world with no consequences
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: for being wrong or changing their positions now running for president.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: And you see that in all the, in all these
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: quotes that come up from her books.
• 29:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: I don't need someone with like a, you know, a
• 29:59
  Speaker 5: bachelor's of arts telling me when to take antidepressants or not.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Right. That's not really how this goes. Yeah. One of
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: the MD.
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: Um, should we talk before we get to the second
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: night about the format and the moderators?
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: We can.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: I will say I will, I don't find myself, when
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: I've been watching these debates, thinking that the moderators are
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: really responsible for the quality of the debate we're having.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: And I think you actually can make that case based
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: on what we watched over two nights, because I came
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: away from the first night thinking, yeah, the rhythm was
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: weird in the beginning, and maybe there was too many
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: times where people got cut off. But I thought it
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: was ultimately a substantive debate that I came away feeling
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: kind of good about the field and how they behaved
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: that night. And then night two, I went directly to
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: a McDonald's drive-thru to get McNuggets because I felt it
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: was like sour combative small and made me think we
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: were going to lose. And it was the same group
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: of people moderating both nights. So ultimately, when people have
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: a problem with questions, I do think mostly it is
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: a problem with how the candidates respond.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: There's always an element of somewhat overcorrecting from the previous debate, right?
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: There was too much interrupting in the first debate, so
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: CNN set a set of rules to do that. There
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: was– people really hated the one-word answer and raise-your-hand questions,
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: so CNN got rid of those. I think the debates
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: were moderated fine.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: In the very beginning, they were a little overly doctrinaire
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: about the time limits. When you're cutting off Elizabeth Warren
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: in the middle of a story about Addie Barkin, that's
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: probably not ideal. But they adjusted for it, and it
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: was better as the debate went on, and it was
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: better the second night. And I think generally, like, we
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: can disagree with the framing of the questions. We can
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: disagree with sort of the perspective they're bringing to it.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: But ultimately, all of the debates thus far have been
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: about policy. And there have not been a bunch of
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: the sort of political gotcha questions that have dominated debates
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: in previous cycles. I think that is a positive.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: It was moderated a little bit tight in the beginning,
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: and they relaxed that. I mean, people are, I think,
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: rightly frustrated by the framing of some of the questions
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: Bernie called them Republican talking points, but it's incumbent upon you,
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: the person on stage, not to take that bait and
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: to answer how you want to answer. And if you
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: want to learn how to do that, watch Elizabeth Warren.
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: She could teach a master class. I think the beef
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: I had with the CNN debates generally is just like,
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: the amount that they are milking them for as much
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: cash as humanly possible, starting with the Powerball pick-em process
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: and then the 15-minute pre-roll into a commercial break before
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: we start the fucking questions. That's a little ridiculous. It's
• 32:19
  Speaker 5: not Jake. It's not Don Lemon. It's not Dana Bash.
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: They're great journalists. They're smart people. They're doing their best.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: It's hard.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: Do I wish that all debates were moderated by people
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: who are issue experts in the areas and activists and
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: then maybe they'd be more substantive and we'd get in
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: the weeds on policy?
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: But as long as they are put on by networks
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: and moderated by journalists, I think journalists are going to
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: and networks are going to search for conflict between the candidates. Now,
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: some conflict is important to have. These are important debates
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: and we need to have them. Some seem like they're
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: a little sillier, but when you are a candidate, your
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: job is to reject the premise of a bad question
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: or an unfair question and to pivot to something that's
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: more important and more substantive. That's what you learn in
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: debate prep. When someone asks you a stupid question, you say,
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: that's a stupid question.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: I also think there were a few moments to debate
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: throughout the two nights of debates where you saw candidates
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: take advantage of the format and the kinds of questions
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: that were being asked. It was honestly, de Blasio did this.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: I think Warren did this. I think Booker did this.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Pete did this to some extent, which is take a
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: moment and say, I'm going to step outside of this
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: current debate that's unfolding and put this in the larger
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: context of the fight that we're having to save the country.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: And to me, what was missing in the first NBC
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: debates that was a bit more present now was candidates
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: willing to kind of step outside of the format to
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: kind of remember that yeah, the moderators from CNN or
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: NBC are in charge, but you're running for president of
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: the United States. You were supposed to be commanding and
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: you were supposed to be able to hold the stage.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: And sometimes that requires taking the microphone and resetting the
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: debate and showing that you can do that in part
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: because we need them to do that as president and
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: because we need someone who's going to be able to
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: do that when they face Donald Trump.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: I think there is a broader discussion to have at
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: some point about the wisdom of the Democratic Party handing
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: over the 10 most important nights of the primary process
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: to media entities whose interests go far beyond informing democratic
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: voters about the democratic policies of democratic candidates.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: There is no reason in the, in this age that
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: the DNC could not put this on itself, stream it,
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: offer broadcast quality streams to CNN, MSNBC, Fox, who would
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: almost certainly take it and then have the debates conducted
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: by progressives, subject matter experts. The, it is, It is
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: ultimately in CNN, MSNBC, ABC, whoever else's interest to make
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: it good TV because this is a profit-making enterprise for them.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: They have to get a return on their investment. You
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: could do it in a different way, and I wish
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: there would have been more outside-of-the-box thinking about this instead
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: of rerunning the same play that we've been running on
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: debate since the 60s.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: I totally agree with that. All right, let's talk about
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: the second night.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: Which featured the following candidates, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Cory Booker,
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: Andrew Yang, Julian Castro, Kirsten Gillibrand, Tulsi Gabbard, Jay Inslee,
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: Michael Bennett and Bill de Blasio. This is a night
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: where most of the candidates took at least one shot
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: at the former vice president. And it started once again
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: with an exchange over health care between Biden and Harris.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: I think we have the clip.
• 35:32
  Speaker 7: And to be very blunt and to be very straightforward,
• 35:35
  Speaker 7: you can't beat President Trump with double talk on this planet.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Your response, Senator Harris?
• 35:42
  Speaker 8: Absolutely.
• 35:42
  Speaker 9: Unfortunately, Vice President Biden, you're just simply inaccurate in what
• 35:45
  Speaker 9: you're describing. The reality is that our plan will bring
• 35:49
  Speaker 9: healthcare to all Americans under a Medicare for All system.
• 35:54
  Speaker 9: Our plan will allow people to start signing up on
• 35:57
  Speaker 9: the first day. Babies will be born into our plan.
• 36:00
  Speaker 9: And right now, four million babies almost are born every
• 36:03
  Speaker 9: day in America, or every year in America. Under our plan,
• 36:07
  Speaker 9: we will ensure that everyone has access to healthcare. Your plan,
• 36:11
  Speaker 9: by contrast, leaves out almost 10 million Americans. So I
• 36:16
  Speaker 9: think that you should really think about what you're saying,
• 36:19
  Speaker 9: but be reflective and understand that the people of America
• 36:22
  Speaker 9: want access to health care and do not want cost
• 36:25
  Speaker 9: to be their barrier to getting it.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: So in general, Biden hits Harris on the cost of
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: her plan, $ 30 trillion, Biden's.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: $ 750 billion, the 10-year transition.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: He says, you know, be wary of anyone who tells
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: you there's going to be something good, but it's going
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: to take 10 years. That's such a random hit.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: I know, it's weird. The fact that you lose.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: Employer-based insurance and then double talk, as you heard, on
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: the plan because she signed on to Bernie's plan originally
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: and then changed to this other plan last week. And
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: then Harris' hit on Biden is that it leaves out
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: 10 million people. And she also mentioned that Kathleen Sebelius,
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: who was Obama's Health and Human Services Secretary during the ACA,
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: endorsed her plan. How do we think This exchange went
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: compared to the first night exchange over health care.
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: I mean, my very simplistic takeaway was it felt like
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: Harris had a hard time explaining her own plan, which
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: meant I imagine most people had a very hard time
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: sussing out the differences.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And Biden, too.
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: I think both of them sort of both of them
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: did not have very sort of strong differences. defenses of
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: their plan and it got into the weeds very fast.
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: It gets at the challenge of almost single payer, almost
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: Medicare for all versus the clean Medicare for all rates,
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: which is much easier to tell people what.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: It is for Bernie and Warren. Yeah. What'd you think, Dan?
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: Neither of them did a great job of making the
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: case for their plan for the sake of their plan.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: It was just sort of defending the individual parts of it.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: I am curious about the political rationale that brought Kamala
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: Harris to this version of the plan.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Me too.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: Because the part, I think it's a good plan, I think.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like it.
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: From a governing perspective, arguing that it's going to take
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: 10 years rather than four years to get to universal
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: coverage through a Medicare for All plan, it's a very
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: rational argument at which you can make a good case for.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: But the part where Biden is hitter for doublespeak is
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: on private insurance and the getting rid of private insurance.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: but she has developed a plan that still does that.
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: And so I'm not like, I don't know why you
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: wouldn't just, I don't think she has solved her political
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: vulnerability that she got from solve from signing on to
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: Bernie's plan. I think perceive on her, like she clearly
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: thinks that there was real political risk in having signed
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: on to Bernie's plan. So she adopted a plan that
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: is less aggressive, but maintains most of the same political risk,
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: but allows you this talking point about Medicare for advantage plans,
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: which is different. People are not, people want, Some people
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: are afraid of losing their private insurance. They are not
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: dying for the opportunity to buy an additional private insurance
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: plan that serves as a supplement to Medicare for All.
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so Biden is technically correct when he says her
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: plan would eliminate employer-based insurance. Employers would not be allowed
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: to give insurance to employees anymore. But employees then have,
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: or every American has the choice at the end of
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: this 10 years where you can either enroll in the
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: government Medicare plan or you can buy a private insurance
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: plan that is heavily regulated by the government and has
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: the same regulations almost as the government plan. So it's like, yeah,
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: you can choose that, but it does do away with
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: the system of employer-based insurance, which you could say, like, okay, fine.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is genuinely interesting and honestly more bold from
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris than I actually expected based on, you know,
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: she signed on to the Bernie plan, but I think
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of Democrats did and then had the same
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: political concerns that Dan is raising. So when she was
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: coming out with a plan, I would have been less
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: surprised to see her end up where Mayor Pete is
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: or where some of the other candidates are on a
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: public option. This is not that. This is incredible. It
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: almost feels it's with a 10-year window and the keeping
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: of options for people when they're signing up for a
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Medicare plan, it feels like it's in many ways answering
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: practical governing questions more than it's answering some of the
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: political questions, which I kind of respect. in terms of
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: reaching it. But then what I found striking during this debate,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: which I think speaks to the flip side of the
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: strength she showed in the first debate, was she's a
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: tough debater. She can hit a line. But what I
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: didn't feel was like someone dying to get out there
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: and kind of pitch her plan and explain why it's
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: the best plan. It just was a lot of very...
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: The argument between Biden and Kamala around healthcare reminded me
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: of the part of a comedy when two dads who've
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: never fought before start fighting. You know, and they're like
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: pulling at each other and like rolling around on the ground,
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: but not really landing punches. And they both stand up
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: and they're covered in shit.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: Two dads? What movie is this?
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: Is this My Two Dads?
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Like, you know what I mean?
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: What the fuck are you talking about?
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: You know the movie where two kind of like pudgy
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: dads who've never fought before end up fighting?
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Paul Blart Mall Cop?
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: You guys know what I'm talking about.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: I don't care.
• 41:07
  Speaker 7: I do.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: The.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: The hit on Biden's plan, leaving 10 million out, is,
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: I think, a fair hit.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: It's an interesting one. His own plan says it.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: Well, what happens is now that the individual mandate has
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: been repealed in the Affordable Care Act, that was the
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: tool to make sure that everyone buys insurance. And you
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: want everyone to buy insurance because if a whole bunch
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: of wealthy and healthy people don't buy insurance, then costs
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: go up for everyone else. Now there's no individual mandate.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: It doesn't seem like. Biden's plan will bring back the
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: individual mandate. So while he has a public option, while
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: healthcare would be available to every single person in America, um,
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of people who might choose to go
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: without it and that could harm the overall insurance pool.
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: So it is a very, it's a fair hit. And
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: he sort of was like, my plan covers everyone. That's
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: not true. And it's like, well, your website says 97%
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: of people.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: So that, you know, the other thing that was, that
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: was what part of this debate was so frustrating. It's like,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: you know, Biden also tried to launch, I think, uh,
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: a hit on single payer that no one had made
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: in the previous debate, which is it's true that no
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: one would pay a copay or deductible, but because taxes
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: go up for everyone, according to Bernie, in a way
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: everyone does have a health care expense.
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: A deductible is out of your paycheck in the form
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: of taxes.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're going to pay more taxes.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Which is a fair hit.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: It's a fair hit. Everybody's going to collectively pay a
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: yearly cost for everyone's health care, which is how it
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: should work. But he just, there's a kind of lack
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: of facility in delivering some of these punches that I just,
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: you're not really following it.
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: I think Cory Booker did a good job when he
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: sort of jumped in and said, you know, Trump is
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: enjoying this fight more than anyone and we are dividing
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: our party in the face of the real enemy here.
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: Elizabeth Warren had said something like that the night before.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: Then he stabbed Biden in the face.
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: Then he stabbed Biden in the face. So there was
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: this exchange over criminal justice reform between Biden and Cory Booker.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Let's play that clip.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: Pressing the syringe down into the arm.
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: Why did you announce in the first day a zero?
• 42:58
  Speaker 7: Tolerance policy of stop and frisk and hire Rudy Giuliani's
• 43:03
  Speaker 7: guy in 2007 when I was trying to get rid
• 43:06
  Speaker 7: of the crack cocaine.
• 43:08
  Speaker 8: Mr. Vice President, there's a saying in my community, you're
• 43:10
  Speaker 8: dipping into Kool-Aid and you don't even know the flavor.
• 43:12
  Speaker 8: You need to... You need to come to the city
• 43:15
  Speaker 8: of Newark and see the reforms that we put in place.
• 43:18
  Speaker 8: The New Jersey head of the ACLU has said that
• 43:21
  Speaker 8: I embrace reforms, not just in action, but in deed. Sir,
• 43:25
  Speaker 8: you are trying to shift the.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: View from what you created.
• 43:29
  Speaker 8: There are people right now in prison for life, for life.
• 43:35
  Speaker 8: Drug offenses, because you stood up and used that tough
• 43:38
  Speaker 8: on crime, phony rhetoric that got a lot of people elected,
• 43:42
  Speaker 8: but destroyed communities like mine.
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: Who got the better of this one? And what do
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: we think about Booker's performance in general? I thought it
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: was quite good.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Cory Booker had a great second debate. He really did.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: And it's funny. he is a happy warrior. He's smiling big.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: He's laughing. Even then, when he was hitting Biden?
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: He kind of reminds me of when Biden would debate
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: in 2012 and 2008. That big Cheshire grin, right? We
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: saw that once last night from Biden. The rest of
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: the time, he looked pretty unhappy to be up.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: There, understandably.
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: So I think Cory Booker went in with probably lower
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: expectations and far exceeded them.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: He also didn't take a punch from anybody. This is
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: my little quibble with the moderation.
• 44:23
  Speaker 5: Like on the foreign policy questions, you could have asked
• 44:25
  Speaker 5: Cory Booker why he's, I think, the only person on
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: that stage who doesn't support getting back on the Iran
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: deal and starting up negotiations with Cuba again, returning it
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: to that diplomatic agreement. And yet we didn't really get
• 44:36
  Speaker 5: at that contrast point for him.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: What did you think about Booker?
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: Booker was great. I think he had the best debate
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: perhaps of anyone. And I put a small asterisk in
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: that because Elizabeth Warren was phenomenal in the first debate.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: But it's just not– we need to see her debate
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: someone other than John Delaney, right, to know for sure, right?
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: Like it's just not– I think she'd probably be great
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: with anyone, but we haven't seen her debate a top-tier contender.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: She's been a bit like when Kramer has to fight
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: those kids in that karate class.
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: No, I– I think Booker did what, love it, what
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: annoyed you about Marianne Williamson, which is you say that
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: Booker always talks about sort of the healing and the
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: bigger problem with Trump. I think he does do that,
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: but he's, because he'd been taking on Biden in the
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: press over the last couple of weeks, that part of
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: his message has sort of been lost. And I thought
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: it was back last night, his opening and closing statements,
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: which are usually awful for everyone, were quite good for
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: Cory Booker, I thought. And then he had this balance
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: where he got his message out, his positive message out,
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: but he did draw contrast with Biden. when he needed
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: to draw a contrast with Biden, and he didn't do it.
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: None of it seemed too small or too nasty. It
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: walked up to the line a few times, but I
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: think it was all fair, and he did it with
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: a smile.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Humor. And humor.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, that was the Kool-Aid line.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: The Kool-Aid line was the most tweeted line of the
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: entire debate.
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: Which means he's going to be president.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I also, you know, I was very frustrated with
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: Cory Booker after the first debate, because I think other
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: than his opening and his closing, there was no actual...
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: delivery on that message around healing and love and being bigger.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: And then I think he actually, at a few key
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: moments throughout this debate, did that. And it was incredibly
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: welcome in a debate that was otherwise very small and
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: very sour.
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: I'm also surprised that Biden has not figured out a
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: way to talk about the crime bill yet in a
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: satisfactory way, which is like, there's a version of this
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: where he could say, yeah, you know what?
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: It was wrong. It was wrong.
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: A lot of things we did in that bill. And
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: it was a bill that was supported by the Congressional
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: Black Caucus at the time. by a whole bunch of Democrats,
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: we all made a mistake and we've learned over the years.
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: And I spent my entire career since then trying to
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: fix those errors and, um, you know, trying to end
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: the disparities between crack and a crack cocaine sentencing and
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: all the rest of the stuff he talks about. Like
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: there's a way to do that, but it, it sort
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: of speaks to his larger problem. Like you've got to
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: get back to saying, starting with, and he did this
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: on the Iraq war vote later. Um, yeah, I was
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: wrong then, but here's what I've done since then.
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: That rejoinder is so much more powerful than, Hey, Barack
• 46:59
  Speaker 5: Obama vetted me in 2008. He didn't have any problem
• 47:02
  Speaker 5: with any of this stuff. That sounds like you're using
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: Barack Obama as a human shield, and I don't think
• 47:07
  Speaker 5: it's going to work.
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: I wonder if that works with some group of people, though,
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: the Obama thing.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: I think it probably does, but Biden would make his
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: life so much easier if he could just use the
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: line he used in that Charleston speech when he was
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: doing cleanup on his comments about working with segregationists, which is,
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: times have changed and so have I. Just saying that,
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: voters will give you a wide berth for things that
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: happened a long time ago. So most interested in what
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: you've done recently and what you can do if you're president.
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: And Biden has a good story to tell there on
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: all of these issues, including criminal justice reform, which he
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: tried to do and perhaps not. He seemed more interested
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: in attacking Cory Booker about what happened in Cory Booker
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: City than making the case for himself. And I think
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: that is a mistake because I don't, I'm not sure
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: what political goal that serves other than showing she'll punch
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: someone in the face.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 47:53
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: There's a, there's a weakness actually shared by Biden and
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: and Kamala, which is they're making their case against Trump.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: That's what their openings and closings are about. You know,
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: and Biden saying this is a fight for the soul
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: of this country. The piece that I think I'm missing
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: from Biden is this statement of, you know, I've been
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: in the arena and I've been in the arena for
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: 40 years and I've made mistakes and I've succeeded and
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: I've failed. But, you know, I don't need to run
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: for president, but I'm running. because I care about this country,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: I want to defeat Donald Trump, and there's some really
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: important things we need to do. There's no, he doesn't
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: go from saying we're in a fight for the soul
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: of this country, a fight we win if we win
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: the election, right? I mean, that's basically what he's saying.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: And so it leaves him vulnerable when someone like Cory
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Booker comes after him, because he doesn't have that kind
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: of high ground to return to of the kind of
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: president he's telling us he's going to be, rather than
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: just arguing.
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: About the past.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: Kamala has the exact same problem, because when someone comes
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: after her, when she's attacked, she can't She can't run
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: up the hill and say, here's my larger case for myself,
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: not just against Trump, not just about the past, but
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: what I will do from day one.
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: The best politicians turn their weaknesses into strengths. And Biden
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: could take his long public life, which these arguments about
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: what Biden did in the 70s and the 80s are
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: in some part about policy, but they're also a way
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: of these politicians making the point that Biden is A, old,
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: and be part of this political systems you hate forever.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: And Biden should, if Biden could say a version of
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: what Lovett just said, which is I've been doing this
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: my entire life and I've made mistakes and I've learned
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: from them and the Ben and that experience and the
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: things I've learned is going to make me a better
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: candidate against Trump and a better president.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: Like make, make your, your age and your experience and advantage,
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: not a disadvantage. And he has been unwilling to do that.
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: Cause he's been on the defense the entire time in
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: these debates. And part of that is just because everyone
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: else is taking shots at him. We're going to go
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: through everyone else doing that too. But, um, and so
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: it's hard, it's a hard thing to do, but in
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: your mind you have to be saying, okay, I'm going
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: to defend this attack and then I'm pivoting and I'm
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: going to talk about my positive message. He didn't get
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: a chance to do that really. Um, One of the
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: tensest moments was when Biden was criticized repeatedly by Julian
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: Castro and Bill de Blasio over the Obama administration's record
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: on deportations and Biden's support for the law that makes
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: crossing the border illegally a criminal violation versus a civil violation.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: Here's a clip. First of all, Mr.
• 50:17
  Speaker 10: Vice President, it looks like one of us has learned
• 50:19
  Speaker 10: the lessons of the past and one of us hasn't.
• 50:22
  Speaker 10: Let me begin by telling you. Let me just start
• 50:27
  Speaker 10: out by answering that question. My immigration plan would also
• 50:30
  Speaker 10: fix the broken legal immigration system because we do have
• 50:34
  Speaker 10: a problem with that. Secondly, the only way that we're
• 50:37
  Speaker 10: going to guarantee that these kinds of family separations don't
• 50:40
  Speaker 10: happen in the future is that we need to repeal
• 50:43
  Speaker 10: this law. There's still going to be consequences if somebody
• 50:46
  Speaker 10: crosses the border. It's a civil action. Also, we have
• 50:50
  Speaker 10: 654 miles of fencing. We have thousands of personnel at
• 50:54
  Speaker 10: the border. We have... planes, we have boats, we have helicopters,
• 50:58
  Speaker 10: we have security cameras. What we need are politicians that
• 51:01
  Speaker 10: actually have some guts on this issue.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Secretary.
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: So do we think the critique of Biden on immigration
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: and deportations in the past is fair?
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: I think Biden has, in the most unsubtle way possible,
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: wrapped himself in the cloak of Barack Obama as part
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: of this election. And so, like, and I think either
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: Cory Booker, I think Cory Booker made this point on stage,
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: was you can't have the good and not have the bad.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: Now, I think there is more nuance to that critique
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: than was apparent on that stage last night. Because what
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: is true is that, and I think Barack Obama himself
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: would say this, was we did not do a good
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: job of having ICE take a humane approach to deportations.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: In the first few years. In the first few years,
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: for sure.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: But after that point, Obama took aggressive executive action, not
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: just on dreamers, but on a broader class of immigrants
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: later on. It changed over time. And so I think
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: you can write it is a fair critique of those
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: early years. And Biden has as vice president has some response,
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: has responsibility for that. And he must he should answer
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: for that. But we have to be, I think, fair
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: and appropriate to everything else that happened under Obama when
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: it comes to deportations.
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: The other thing I was surprised about from Biden is
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: he was unwilling to defend any deportations whatsoever, right? By
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: the end of the Obama administration, there were only two
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: categories of people who were targeted for deportation. Dangerous criminals,
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: which everyone would agree with, and recent arrivals, people who
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: just came over the border and then they're caught and
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: then they're sent back. And you should be able to
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: stand up for deporting recent arrivals because if you're not
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: willing to deport recent arrivals to this country people who
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: just crossed the border legally then you're not going to
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: deport anyone then it really is open borders and i
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: but i think there is a fear on that stage
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: from biden and others to defend any kind of deportations
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: whatsoever though when you hear julian castro talk about you
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: know we got into this fucking debate about 1325 again
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: you know you hear castro say look whether the whether
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: 1325 is repealed or not we're still going to be
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: able to detain and deport people who come here illegally
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: and you're like oh yeah that's correct So then why.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: Are we having this huge debate?
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: The thing that's driving me crazy about this immigration debate
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: on stage is there is so much agreement between all
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: of these candidates on the major planks of immigration policy
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: and immigration reform. Stop Donald Trump's inhumane policies. Stop mass detention.
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: Stop mass deportation. Stop family separation. Make sure that asylum seekers...
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: get fair proceedings, and then, by the way, legalize 11
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: million people who are here who are undocumented. They all
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: agree on that, and all of them would push.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: For that as president.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, once again, we were left with Bill de Blasio
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: actually being the one to stand up and say, what
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: are we doing here? Let's talk about the actual reality
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: of our broken immigration system and what we have to
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: do for the millions of people who are already here.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: We have become trapped in this 1325 debate in part
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: because of what John is saying, this sort of fear
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: of saying anything that runs counter to the left position,
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: but also because I think a lot of those candidates
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: don't have a strong argument they feel comfortable making around
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: broader immigration reform. They're just not comfortable inside of the issue.
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: I think they're comfortable in the 90% agreement part. That's
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: the problem. It reminds me a little bit of the
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: healthcare debate in the 2008 campaign, which is healthcare was
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: the most important domestic issue in that campaign, at least
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: until the economy collapsed at the end. And Obama, Clinton,
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: and Edwards had very, very similar plans. And we ended
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: up fighting about the individual mandate, of which I would
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: note Obama and all of us were on the wrong
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: side of. But that became the issue. It was like
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: auto-enrollment versus the individual mandate was the core debate. And
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: in a world where Donald Trump is locking kids up
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: in cages and trying to basically put in place bans
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: on immigration for all non-white people, the idea that we're
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: arguing about a section of the law that is... only
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: quasi-related to the thing Castro says it's related to is,
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: I think, a huge problem for the larger narrative about
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: what's coming out of this primary.
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I've said this before, and I think Pete
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: Buttigieg did a good job of making this point the
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: first night. Like, you can make a good argument for
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: Julian Castro's position that we should repeal 1325.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: You can make a good argument against it.
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: But either way, it's not going to change a president's
• 55:23
  Speaker 4: ability to to either end family separations or still deport
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: people who shouldn't be here.
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: In fact, Pete made both sides of that argument.
• 55:31
  Speaker 5: Pete was the only one who may have created some
• 55:34
  Speaker 5: problems for himself on this issue because it seemed like
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: he was all for getting rid of 1325 in the
• 55:40
  Speaker 5: last debate. In this debate, he didn't say so explicitly,
• 55:44
  Speaker 5: but it does seem like he's maybe walked.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Back to that position.
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: And he ended by complaining, that's what's wrong with raising
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: your hand type questions, which you can tell is him
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: saying he didn't really want to be on that position.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, look, fundamentally, what Julian Castro says,
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: the only way we can stop a president from conducting
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: family separation in the future is by repealing 1325, when
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: it seems like that's not true. You could just pass
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: a law as part of comprehensive immigration reform that bans
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: family separations. There are a lot of things you can
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: do legally, forget just executive order, legally, without introducing this very,
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: I think, politically risky criminalization versus civil debate.
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: You can pass a law that says no asylum seeker
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: ever will be subject to criminal prosecution and no family
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: will ever be separated. And you can still say that
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: it will be a criminal violation just for people who
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: are not asylum seekers and not coming with children.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: And you don't have to wait for comprehensive immigration reform.
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: Nancy Pelosi would pass that tomorrow.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And a president, by the way, through executive action
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: could do most of that also.
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: Yes, because it's been on the books since like 1920
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: and it's only happened once.
• 56:48
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 56:49
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: So in last night's debate, Biden wasn't the only candidate
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: who took some incoming. At one point, Tulsi Gabbard unloaded
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: the opposition research file on Kamala Harris's record as a prosecutor.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.
• 57:01
  Speaker 11: Senator Harris says she's proud of her record as a
• 57:03
  Speaker 11: prosecutor and that she'll be a prosecutor president. But I'm
• 57:06
  Speaker 11: deeply concerned about this record. There are too many examples
• 57:10
  Speaker 11: to cite, but she put over 1500 people in jail
• 57:12
  Speaker 11: for marijuana violations and then laughed about it when she
• 57:15
  Speaker 11: was asked if she ever smoked marijuana.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: She blocked evidence.
• 57:20
  Speaker 11: She blocked evidence that would have freed an innocent man
• 57:24
  Speaker 11: from death row until the courts forced her to do so.
• 57:27
  Speaker 11: She kept people in prison beyond their sentences to use
• 57:30
  Speaker 11: them as cheap labor for the state of California. And
• 57:33
  Speaker 11: she fought to keep cash bail system in place that
• 57:37
  Speaker 11: impacts poor people in the worst kind of way.
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: Was Tulsi Gabbard's attack fair? What did we think of
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: that exchange?
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: No.
• 57:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it was a little unfair. I mean, I think
• 57:50
  Speaker 5: we were talking about this earlier in the office. I mean,
• 57:54
  Speaker 5: Kamala Harris has been criticized roundly for not supporting the
• 57:58
  Speaker 5: death penalty in the case of a police officer who
• 58:01
  Speaker 5: was murdered in San Francisco. On the flip side, when
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: she was attorney general in California, she defended the policies
• 58:08
  Speaker 5: of the state. So it's a hard thing to be
• 58:10
  Speaker 5: a lawyer.
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think Gabbard's attack was, like, half fair in places, right? Having, like,
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: really dug into... Kamala Harris's record for when I interviewed
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: her for our series it is very complicated and there's
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: some parts of her record as a prosecutor she should
• 58:24
  Speaker 4: be very proud of and she was out ahead of
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: I mean that story digging into that story about the
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: death penalty thing I don't know if you realize this
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: like she so she declined to seek the death penalty
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: for this cop killer at the funeral Diane Feinstein stands
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: up and says, this is not just a tragedy. This
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: is a tragedy where the perpetrator should have been subject
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: to the death penalty while Harris was sitting right there
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: at the funeral and everyone turned to her. It's just
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: like late into her funeral. And Harris took and said,
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: this is what I believe. So like, that's a very
• 58:55
  Speaker 4: courageous thing to do. Later, she's attorney general. She defends
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: the Department of Corrections in the state of California.
• 59:01
  Speaker 7: Uh.
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: on behalf of you know pursuing the death penalty so
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: was it is great to say well that was my
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: job that my client was the state of california I
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: had to follow the law. This is sort of what,
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: what Kamala was dealing with, I think is when you're
• 59:11
  Speaker 4: the attorney general and you're not just purely a political figure,
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: sometimes you, you know, you have to defend things you
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: don't want to defend.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 59:19
  Speaker 5: I gotta say, I mean, I think it was a
• 59:20
  Speaker 5: very effective attack from Gabbard though. I mean, just to
• 59:22
  Speaker 5: be a shitty pundit for a second. Um, I was
• 59:25
  Speaker 5: surprised at how hard it landed. I was surprised that
• 59:29
  Speaker 5: once again, No one on that stage was willing to
• 59:32
  Speaker 5: say to Tulsi Gabbard, I don't take criticism from someone
• 59:37
  Speaker 5: who hangs out with Bashar al-Assad very seriously.
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: Like, that is sitting there. They all keep doing it
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: after the debate.
• 59:42
  Speaker 5: They all do it in the spin room. Now, look,
• 59:43
  Speaker 5: I'm not saying that's a fair substantive critique, right? I mean, like,
• 59:47
  Speaker 5: we're sort of in the pundit land now, but you
• 59:50
  Speaker 5: could punch back really hard. Now, I also think that
• 59:52
  Speaker 5: Tulsi Gabbard is going to reach a swath of the
• 59:55
  Speaker 5: left that likes her anti-war, anti-interventionist, pro-marijuana legalization world, then
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 5: I think she'll get some traction.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Out of this. I really do.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: I would make the point that Tulsi Gabbard's a very
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: good debater.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: She is good in these moments. She delivers her points
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: clearly and succinctly and strongly. I mean, she crushed Tim
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: Ryan in that first debate. We kind of forget that
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: because we tend to forget Tim Ryan, but.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: I forgot him in the last 10 minutes since you
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: last mentioned him.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: That's right. It's funny.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: Tim Ryan was dunked on twice, once by Tulsi Gabbard,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: the other time by, like, a 77-year-old... Brooklyn Jew, just
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: getting batted around the court.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: How do we think that Kamala Harris did in general?
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: I don't think her performance in general was as strong
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: as it was the first time at all. And I
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 4: think part of it was she wasn't as comfortable debating
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: Joe Biden about health care as she was about the
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: busing issue from last time. And I also think because
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: she took some incoming herself as now a leading candidate,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: she was on the defensive a bit more.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think she had a very good night.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: I don't think she did terribly, but I think expectations
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: are really high. And her case is when you're not
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: going to have a really clear vision for the kind
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: of president you'd be, when you're not going to lay
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: out exactly why you care so much and are going
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: to fight so hard for this nomination, when your case
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: is about prosecuting the case, winning the debates, you have
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: raised the stakes for yourself in those debates. And she
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: has to meet them. And I think she can. But
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: last night, I don't think she did.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: Last person to pile on Joe Biden was Kirsten Gillibrand,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 4: who sort of had an attack out of the blue.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 5: Kind of out of the blue because her staffer accidentally
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 5: previewed it.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: That's true, yeah.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: So this attack was previewed in the press before, and
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: she used a Kamala Harris answer on equal pay to
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: then pivot to an op-ed that Joe Biden wrote in
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 4: 1981 where he argued against expanding a child tax credit
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: for wealthier couples.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Let's play that clip.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 6: I think we have to have a broader conversation about
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 6: whether we value women and whether we want to make
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 6: sure women have every opportunity in the workplace. And I
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 6: want to address Vice President Biden directly. When the Senate
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 6: was debating middle class affordability for child care, he wrote
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 6: an op-ed. He voted against it, the only vote. But
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 6: what he wrote in op-ed was that he believed that
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 6: women working outside the home would, quote, create the deterioration
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 6: of family. He also said that women who were working
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 6: outside the home were, quote, avoiding responsibility. And I just
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 6: need to understand, as a woman who's worked my entire
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 6: career as the primary wage earner, as the primary caregiver,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 6: in fact, my second son Henry is here, and I
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 6: had him when I.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: Was a member of Congress.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: So under.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: Vice President.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 6: Biden's analysis, am I serving in Congress resulting in the
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 6: deterioration of the family because I had access to quality,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 6: affordable daycare? I just want to know what he meant
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 6: when he said that.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: So the fact checkers have waited on this and have
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: pointed out that she has completely mischaracterized the op ed
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 4: in his position. He never specifically mentioned women. What his
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: argument was in the op-ed was that a child care
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 4: tax subsidy should go to middle class and poorer families,
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: and those families should not, through their taxes, subsidize child
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: care for wealthier families. And then he went on to
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 4: say that if you're a wealthier family, then if you're
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: just always leaving your children in daycare, then you are
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 4: somehow maybe shirking your responsibilities, which is certainly something to
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 4: take issue with.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: But it was not.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 4: But the other thing, and then, you know, Biden responded
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: and it was like, you know, I had one wife
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 4: who's deceased. My current wife now, both of them work.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 4: They worked while I was in office. We had two
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: parents working in our families. And also, by the way,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 4: I was a single dad and raised both of my kids.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 4: And so I know what it's like to be a
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: single parent having to work, you know? So I don't
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: know that it landed at all.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, two points. One, just in general, Don't telegraph
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: your attacks. Like Biden knew this was coming. He was ready.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: He had a scripted answer. It's just like, be smart
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: about this, right? This would be like if Doug Peterson
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: wrote a Medium post about the Philly special before the
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: Super Bowl. Like, what are you doing? Like, it's just
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: so stupid. And two, Biden's record is filled with problematic
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: stances over a long period. And a lot on choice
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: and issues of women's reproductive freedoms.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: And Anita Hill, that's totally fair to talk about that.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: I just don't understand why Gillibrand picked this one overstated
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: the case. And when after it just, it made no sense.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: And then, so she did an interview at this morning
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: on CNN, where she tried to defend this and they
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: played Biden's rejoinder, where he said, you said all these
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: nice things about me before. And the only thing is
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: chasing now you're running for president. And they asked her
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: about it. And she's like, you know, I still love
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: Joe Biden and respect them. It's like, you can't love
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: and respect someone, but then also think that they have
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: this horribly problematic view about women that is misogynist, it's
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: misogynistic and outdated, et cetera. It just, it's very, it's,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: it just wasn't great.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, there's a reason I think Cory Booker's
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: exchange with Biden redounded to Cory Booker's benefit and this
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: exchange with Jill Abram blew up in her face. And
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: it's because when you're going to go into somebody's record,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: when you're going to somebody's history, you're not doing it
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: because that one incident all those years ago is incredibly
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: salient and important. You're doing it because you're trying to
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: build a case against against the person today. This is
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: the kind of person they are now. This is the
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: kind of leader they'd be now. This is what's wrong
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: with them now. And I don't think Gillibrand could conceivably
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: stand by the argument that Joe Biden in 2019 believes
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: women shouldn't work out of the home. He didn't say
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: it in 1981. The op-ed in 1981 is bonkers, right?
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: It is very old. It's like it's saying people putting,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: you know, the existence of nursing homes and daycare centers
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: is a statement about our lack of taking responsibility for
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: our our our Our families, it is very old-fashioned, but
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: you have to— You.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: Can criticize it in that way. Sure. It was a
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: weird op-ed. Yeah, it was definitely weird. But you're right.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 5: If you're going to put together this big hit and
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 5: essentially accidentally preview it, you have to be as precise
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 5: as humanly possible.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: So this morning, her.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 5: Point was, give me a break. Who in 1981 was
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 5: going to stay home to watch children?
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: It's obvious. And typically, in most families, it was women. Fair.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: Okay, sure.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 5: But in the debate, she said he wrote in the
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 5: op-ed was that he believed that women working outside the
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 5: home would, quote, create the deterioration of family. And it's like,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 5: you just can't be that imprecise. You cannot put those
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 5: words in his mouth that that fundamentally changed the meaning
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 5: of the op-ed and think you can get away with that.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: Kamala Harris, when she went after him on busing in
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 4: that first debate, she, like the prosecutor she is, locked
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: that shit down.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: She said it was precise.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: And again, it's the problem of like when you get
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: to present day, what do you do about busing and segregation?
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: There were problems there.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: But in terms of what she said about him in
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 4: the past, it was she made sure that she had
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: it mostly right. And I think that Gillibrand did not
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: do that.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: I like Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. It was not a sincere
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: case she was making. It was not something she sincerely
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: believed she could stand by as evidenced by what she
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: said the next day and what she said about Biden
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: in public in the past. It was an attempt to
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: find a moment in a debate, in a campaign that
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: is not really working. And it is not not working
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: because she has failed to land punches on Joe Biden
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: in the past. It is not working because she has
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: not articulated a reason for her to be a candidate.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: She has offered bromides and talking points and various arguments
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: over the course of these debates and over the course
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: of her candidacy. And I was just... mad about it.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: I just was like, this is your final play to
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: get to the third debate, to find an op-ed from
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: 1981 and launch an unfair attack against Joe Biden on
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: that stage when you couldn't stand by literally the next morning.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 5: We all overlearned the lesson of the first debate, and
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 5: everyone was looking for their Kamala Harris dismembering Joe Biden moment,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 5: and it led to a.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: Whole two and a half, two hours and 45 minutes,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: whatever it was, that just felt ugly. And look, Sucked.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: Like I said, there's plenty of things to criticize Biden about.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: You know, Kamala Harris picked up after Gillibrand's attack on
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: him on his past support for the Hyde Amendment.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: And it was fair, right?
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 4: You just changed your position on the Hyde Amendment because
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: you were running for president. It was a fair attack
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 4: on Joe Biden's record on reproductive rights in the past.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: She did it. It was totally fair. Yeah. And you
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: know what else?
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: You know, even in the clip you played of Gillibrand
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: in that debate, it actually spoke to the larger problem
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: of what she was doing during the debate. Like she says,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: we need to have a broader conversation here. At every
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: moment when she's asked a question in that debate, even
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: when it was in the midst of a heated argument
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: on the stage, she avoided it completely. There was a moment.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: where Biden and Kamala were going at it. They go
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: to Gillibrand on health care. She avoids basically the question.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: And then when they go back to Kamala, she just
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: disregarded Gillibrand entirely and went right back to the debate
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: with Biden because that was the debate taking place on
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: that stage when Gillibrand refused to enter.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: Did anyone help themselves in this debate? And why did
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 4: we also feel so bad after this debate?
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: I mean, Cory Booker, as we mentioned.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was a great debate performance. If we
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: assume debates matter, and since we're all sitting here today,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: we must assume they do, then Cory Booker did himself
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: a lot of good in this debate.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think for the two nights, I think
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 4: Elizabeth Warren did herself quite a bit of good because
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: now she's had two very strong debate performances, and now
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: we're waiting for the main event where she actually is
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 4: on stage with both Kamala Harris and Joe Biden and
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 4: Bernie Sanders and Pete Buttigieg, all of sort of the
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 4: top five candidates.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I find his.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 5: Argument a little personally frustrating and maybe a touch unfair,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 5: but I do think Castro probably made a pretty good
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 5: case for himself again in the debates and didn't didn't
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 5: take any punches.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: He was solid last night. He was solid last night.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think, I don't think he had any
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 4: like big moments like he did in the first one,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: but I think he made his case for himself.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 5: De Blasio, again, had a good message delivered quite annoyingly.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 5: When he told Vice President Biden the quote, we believe
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 5: in redemption, it was just so smarmy and obnoxious and
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 5: it really bugged me.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: De Blasio makes the best points in the worst way. Always.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: I also think Bill De Blasio, and John Delaney in
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: the same vein, It's the kind of person whose response
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: to not getting invited to a party is showing up anyway.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: And they did.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 4: So why do we feel so bad about it in general?
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: I think, I mean, for me, there was just, you know,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: this was the debate where, because everyone learned from the
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 4: Kamala Harris hit on Joe Biden in the first debate,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 4: they all took shots at Biden. And in the first debate,
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 4: they were also fairly contentious as well. It was just,
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 4: it was way too much Democrat on Democrat debate. And
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 4: it felt like a debate that if some other Republican
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 4: was president or it was an open race, you know,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 4: and it would have been like, oh, what a silly debate.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 4: They're just going after each other. Donald Trump is president.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 4: And then this happening on stage, people talking about, you know,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: records in the 70s and this and that. over and
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 4: over and over again, it just started feeling like, guys,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 4: what are we doing here?
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 5: We're 186 days out from Iowa, too. We have a
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 5: long time for this thing to heat up. Normally at
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 5: this stage, we're talking about things.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: We believe in.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 5: We're celebrating our colleagues on stage with us. It just
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 5: got a little too ugly.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: This is the unintended consequence of the DNC's debate threshold,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: which is on that stage last night, which is what
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: made it different from the first night, is only Biden
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: and Harris and Booker had qualified for the next debate,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: and everyone else... doesn't have a great path to get
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: there with the possible exception of Castro. And so this
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: was do or die for everyone. They had to empty
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: the chamber with every attack, every strategy, everything they had
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 3: to do to have a chance. I also think this
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: one was hard for the reason you point out, John,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: which is you wouldn't know Donald Trump was president. We
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: did not talk about it. That's why I think Booker
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 3: did well is he brought it back to that. We
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: had this debate. The debate seemed small and diminishing. And also,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: we know a lot of the people on that stage, right?
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: Like we worked with Biden. We worked with Castro. We've
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: known Kamala Harris for a long time. And they're just
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: like savaging each other at this world in which Donald
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: Trump is doing insane shit to make this country worse
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: every single day.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 4: And I will say that even about some of the
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 4: purely positive messaging. Elizabeth Warren, who we praise all the time.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 4: There are still times when Elizabeth Warren is talking where
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: I'm like, you could be saying this in 2016, 2012, 2008,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 4: about the massive inequality in our economy and the fact
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 4: that it's rigged, which.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: I completely am all in for.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: But, and we've also said to people, you don't need
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: to be talking about Trump all the time. But everything
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 4: is about balance. And while you shouldn't be talking about
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 4: Donald Trump all the time, I don't think it's a
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 4: good idea to overcorrect and pretend that somehow we don't
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 4: have a president in power who is not just a racist, sexist,
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 4: xenophobe buffoon, but is endangering our democracy and the planet
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: every single day he's in office. And, you know, we'd
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 4: say that Donald Trump is a symptom of a larger problem.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 4: What is the larger problem? Let's start talking about the
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 4: larger issues that we're dealing with right now.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, that is, I think ultimately it, um, I
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: think that's the reason that the first, the night of
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: the first debate, I think felt better to watch than
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: the second because, um, There were moments in that first
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: debate where Elizabeth Warren, as the kind of strongest and
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: candidates out there, kind of took the mantle that comes
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: along with that and set the stakes and reminded people
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: how big this fight is and how important this fight is. And,
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: you know, with the language about idealism and optimism, kind
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: of rooted people in the conversation. On night two, that
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: was the job of either Biden or Harris, and neither
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: one of them did it. And so Booker did it
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: at times, and fucking Bill de Blasio did it at times.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: Bennett did it too.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: Bennett did it too. Bennett did it too. And I
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: think Bennett did also have, I think, ultimately, I think,
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: a better night for himself than he did previously. Maybe
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: one of the better moderate arguments of all those candidates.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: Oh, we left out Inslee, who I thought had a
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: very good night.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: Jay Inslee did a great job. Jay Inslee's just a
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: charming figure up there.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: But in that, this is, I think, why, you know, look,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: Biden did better than he did previously. But if we
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: hadn't seen Biden have such a terrible night, I do
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: not think we'd be describing what we saw as a
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: frontrunner maintaining his position. He did better than before, but
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: still not well. He simply does not have control of
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: that stage, and it is very, very unsatisfying as a
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: result because he is the ostensible frontrunner of the Democratic Party.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: And he cannot command the state. He did it for
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: one moment at the very start of the debate when
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: he made a really lovely point about everyone.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: Being up there. That was one of his best moments.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: It was one of his best moments. It was his
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: only great moment. And for the rest of the debate,
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: I watched somebody on their heels try to keep up
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: and basically make it all the way through. But when
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: you're supposed to be the frontrunner of the Democratic Party,
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: there's a reason we have a knot in our stomach
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: at the end of the debate.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: You guys probably remember, I think it was the ABC
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 3: debate in Iowa in 2007 when every single person went
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: after Obama on foreign policy. It was the foreign policy debate,
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: and it was about his Pakistan policy and negotiating with
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: Iran and all of these things that are now the
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 3: policy of the Democratic Party.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: And the Republicans.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: But it's just very hard when everyone's coming after you.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 3: So I want to put Biden's performance in that context,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: that if you were taking incoming from nine people on stage,
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 3: it's very hard. Having said that, It is halting at times.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, there are a lot of warning signs in it.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, we can't ignore the fact that he... just
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 3: in the most classic old person thing possible, mangled his
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: website at the end.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 4: Go to 3303 Joe.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's like, yesterday Trump successfully browbeat the
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 5: Fed chairman into cutting rates to help him politically and
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 5: then lashed out at Navy prosecutors because some right-wing cause
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 5: celeb means you have to support a Navy SEAL who
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 5: probably murdered someone in captivity. And it's like, you juxtapose
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 5: that with what we saw last night and it didn't
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 5: feel like we were up to the task of, kicking
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 5: his ass because we need to. I think I landed
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 5: in feeling like Biden had a worse night than the
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 5: DC punditry did, in part because I don't think his
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 5: challenge in the first debate was really around the substance of.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: The busing question, as important as all that is.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 5: It was that he kind of looked old and unprepared
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 5: to take on Donald Trump. And there were a bunch
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 5: of moments last night where I thought he was halting,
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 5: like Dan said, messing up the website thing, but also
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 5: just sort of didn't seem to have a handle on
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 5: the rebuttals he needed to have a handle on.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean he's, like, old. It just means
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: he wasn't ready to play, and he should have been.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think what Biden improved on between the first
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 4: and second debate is, you know, he has some of
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 4: the best debate prep people in the country. You know,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 4: Ron Klain, Anita Dunn. And I think he, on some
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 4: of the rebuttals, he ran the playbook that they gave him,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 4: and he got the lines out, and it was effective.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 4: But I think when you are on stage with all
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 4: these candidates and most importantly, when you're on stage with
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 4: Donald Trump, you have to be nimble and quick and
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 4: off the cuff. And a lot of times the playbook
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 4: that happened in debate prep is going to go out
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 4: the window because there's going to be a new issue
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 4: and you have to be ready to fight.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: And I am worried that he is not there.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: And by the way, you know, the good news is
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: before we get to Donald Trump, uh, Joe Biden is
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: going to have to be on a stage with Elizabeth Warren,
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris, Cory Booker and Pete Buttigieg, among others. And
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: I think that will be a higher level challenge for
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: him because Warren's not going to let not going to
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: let punches go by. You know, she's going to she's
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: going to take her. She's going to take her shots.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 3: I agree. I think we think of all these debates
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 3: in the context of who would be the best person
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: to stand on the bait stage against Trump. And I
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: do worry that that is not the exact right way
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 3: to think.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: About it, right? Well, since Hillary won all of the
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: debates against Trump.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: That's my point, right? Hillary won all three debates against
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 3: Trump and still lost. And let's not say the debates
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: are not important, but I think there are other things
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 3: that we should be looking for in there that both
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: give us confidence or concerns about various candidates. This is
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: where I think Elizabeth Warren has done very well thus far.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 3: But it's like, you see Kamala Harris in that first debate,
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: and even in moments last night where you're like, she
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: would disembowel Trump. And he would be scared shitless of her.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: There is no doubt that he would be very afraid
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: to be on stage with her, which is why he
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: doesn't really attack her as much as other people. But
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 3: there are other parts of her debate performance that give
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 3: me concerns about her larger candidacy, which is she makes
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 3: the best, most powerful argument against Trump. but her argument
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: for herself thus far is that she makes the best,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 3: most powerful argument against Trump. And you want candidates who
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: can both make the case against Trump, but the case
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: for themselves, not just on the debate stage, but on
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 3: the stump every single day from the day they're the
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 3: nominee into election day.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: Your 3 a.m. agenda is not the case. It's an agenda.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: It's good. It's important. It is not the case for
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: your candidacy.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: And I say this as someone who likes Kamala Harris
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: so much.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: And I think she has like Limitless potential.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: I do. And I think you could even put together
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 3: a theory in your head as to why she is
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 3: the person, if she can meet that threshold, who is
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: best able to put together the electoral coalition to get
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 3: to 270 of anyone running. And she's so good and
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 3: so smart, and it's like right there. Now, the caveat
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 3: is it is early.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: Candidates grow. All of them do.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 3: Obama was not great at this point.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: No, he sucked in some of these debates early on.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: Oh, he was a terrible debater.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: That's what I found myself– that was part of my–
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: as I was driving to the McDonald's drive-thru, that was
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: part of what I was saying to myself was like
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris can take this nomination. If she wants it,
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: she can. She can take it. And there is that
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: missing piece, and it's so important. And I'm very frustrated
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: that we're another debate in and that weakness is still there.
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: You're totally right that ultimately this won't be won or
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: lost in the debates. But when we're evaluating the debates,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: we're evaluating based on who's going to go toe-to-toe with
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump. And that's the piece that's still missing for her,
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: that gut level is why the health care part. It's
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 2: not just that she wasn't, I think, as live in
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: describing her own policy positions. It's that when she describes
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: her plan, it feels very much like she's running through
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: the points of her new plan that she came up
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: with to answer some of the criticisms she offered previously,
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: not this gut level, here's what I'm fighting for.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 4: Last thing I'll say is I do think that in
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 4: the September debate, There's going to be room for someone
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 4: on stage to say, enough of all this fighting.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump is president. Let's focus on that. I think
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: someone who does that consistently, like Warren, Booker, and Buttigieg
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: all did at times in these two debates, I think
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: that person will do really well. And we were talking
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: about this before.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 4: It may be the case that these things sort of
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 4: wax and wane here, like the next debate could be
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 4: a much friendlier affair because this one was so nasty.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: My plea that I would make to all the candidates
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: who make the stage in September is you're going to
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 3: have 10 plus million people watching that debate. Everyone take
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 3: a little bit of your time and make the argument
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 3: against Trump because it's not just for yourself.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 3: But like if we make argument for yourself, but instead
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 3: of arguing with you, don't spend as much time making
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: the argument against Trump as you are against Biden or
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 3: Harris or Warren or Sanders. Like it's so rare that
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: we actually get to hold the microphone in Trump's America
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 3: that let's take advantage of it to articulate a case
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 3: against Trump.
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: I think that's right.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: It's so lost in this. That was why the Biden
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: moment at the top was so good. It's like, hey, guys,
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: ultimately this is a team of people coming together to
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: try to pick somebody to represent us together in the
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: most important fight of our lifetimes. And just that has
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: to be there because otherwise you leave feeling like somebody
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: punched you in the face.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: I was going to try to keep trying to end
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: on a high note.
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 5: Listen, if you want to hear more about this, go
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 5: to Pod Save America 330330.net.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: And we'll tell you.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 3: Did you see that Buttigieg's campaign bought Joe Biden 30-30?
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: What a crafty youth. Yeah, that guy.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 4: Listening to Hamilton just buying those websites.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: That was nerdy. Don't do it. That was almost disqualifying
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: and nerdy. Don't do that anymore, please. You're better than that.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: Come on. There's better hip-hop out there. All right, everyone.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: We will... You know, we'll have this again in September.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 4: And when we just have so far, there's just seven
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 4: candidates on stage in September and a couple more might qualify.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: I think we're I think we could be down to one.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 3: If we get to 12, it's two nights, according to
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 3: the rules. Fuck.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing. We also, you know, if we get
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: to this to September, we did not discuss Andrew Yang,
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: whose climate policy has moved to higher ground.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God. Yeah, that is right. Well, that's. Well,
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: that says a lot.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 4: That's what we'll remember Andrew Yang for in this debate,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: that he talked about moving to higher ground for climate,
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 4: and he's going to give everyone $ 1, 000, and then you
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 4: move to higher ground.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: Wake me up when September ends, right, guys? Right? Right? Yeah, right.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: What was the song you kept referencing last night?
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 7: Oh, uh.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: Chumbawamba.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 10: Unwritten.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: All right, let's end this. All right, everyone, bye.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America is a product of Crooked Media.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: The show is produced by Michael Martinez.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 5: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 5: our sound engineer. Thanks to Caroline Reston, Tanya Somanator, and
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 5: Katie Long for production support, and to our digital team,
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 5: Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, and Milo Kim, who film.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: And upload these bad boys every week. Thank you.