Latest / Healing Her Story with Riva Jean-Paul / Breaking Family Cycles: How Childhood Shapes Our Adult Relationships with Amanda Hill, LMHC

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Breaking Family Cycles: How Childhood Shapes Our Adult Relationships with Amanda Hill, LMHC · Healing Her Story with Riva Jean-Paul

• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the Healing Her Story podcast.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: I am so excited to be here for another guest episode today.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And as always, very special guest today, and really curious to explore all the different topics of her specialties.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And today we're going to be exploring a topic that touches every single one of us, and that is family, home, and the ways that our earliest relationships shape Poolie become.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Joining me today is Amanda Hill.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Amanda Hill is a licensed mental health counselor, national certified counselor, and board certified coach.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Amanda is the founder and clinical director of Connections of Hope, a private practice based in Indiana, where she provides counseling and case management services for adults, adolescents, and children.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: With nearly 20 years of experience as a psychotherapist, Amanda continues to work deeply with clients while also leading a growing practice dedicated to helping individuals and families create meaningful change.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Amanda is also informed in couples therapy and sex therapy, bringing a holistic perspective to relationships, communication, and emotional well-being.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: In today's conversation, we're exploring how childhood homes shape our adult lives, the lasting impact of different parenting styles, why family patterns can be so difficult to change, and how we begin creating healthier relationships and more emotionally safe homes for future generations.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Amanda, welcome to the show.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really happy to be here with you today.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And as I was reading your bio, I'm like getting little goosebumps on my own.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's gonna be a good conversation.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I always invite our guests to share their story.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would love to hear a little bit about your story.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh would also love to maybe hear about the story of your childhood and kind of how that led you to the path that you're on now.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I grew up in a pretty big family.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm number five of six kids.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: You don't hear that as much anymore, people popping out that many kids.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: But uh lots of family dynamics, right?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: In a big family like that.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a great upbringing.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: My parents are still married, uh, still alive, and um, you know, went to school, college, was actually in college to be a doctor, pre-med, and took a side class my senior year, and I kind of fell in love with that.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people that go into the field go into it because something about the mental health world like triggers their own issues, right?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I went in wanting to understand more about myself and uh switched my major, uh, got a bachelor's in psychology.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously you have to get your master's if you want to do anything with that.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And as I did, I've just become so passionate about the subject of mental health and human behavior.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: It never gets old to me.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's not a book that I, you know, don't want to read in regards to that.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it does kind of reflect back to, like you said, my upbringing, my childhood.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, understanding myself first was my goal and why I, in some ways, just personally, I've struggled to relate to my family, as great as they are, very great.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like no complaints really.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: But for some reason, I was one of the ones that never felt like I fully belonged in my family.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And as I've gotten older, I've realized some of that has to do with my attachment style and of course my personality, and again, being in a really in a family with a lot of different uh dynamics and trying to find my place there.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I have taken that and I actually did just write a book as well on family dysfunction.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: What got me going on that was my own experience and also working with so many families out there who are struggling, you know, with the day in, day out of their lives and their families, but not really knowing how to feel better, how to resolve those issues.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: So as I started to see that pattern with my clients and also my own experience, I decided that it would be great to write a book about it.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, my goal has been hopefully to help people kind of learn to navigate those relationships and do their own reflection to feel more mentally and emotionally stable.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's beautiful.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Such important work that you're doing.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I love what you shared about coming kind of, maybe these weren't exact words, but this is kind of what's coming up for me is this idea of really coming home to yourself and allowing that coming home to yourself to create more of that belonging in your family.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes we like try to go about it in the opposite way.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's a huge theme in my book, and also a huge theme in what I work with my clients on, because we can only really control ourselves.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: We can't control other people.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of issues that happen in families is we are unhappy.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we look external to ourselves to try to fix everybody else around us, and that just leaves us sitting in that same discomfort or unhappiness.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing changes until you start to look at yourself.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that attachment piece, I think, is so important too, right?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because that influences our nervous system and the nervous system responds in relationships.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, yeah, can you talk a little bit more about that for maybe listeners who aren't familiar with attachment styles or maybe absolutely, yeah.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are some variations, but for the most part, there's three different attachment styles.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the one that we are aiming for is secure.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the two insecure styles are what we call avoidant and anxious.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a big part of attachment, what's important is people will just assume, like, like I did in a lot of ways, my mom was a stay-at-home mom.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: She was an amazing mom, like nothing about her I have to complain about.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: However, I still developed an insecure attachment style.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, my question around that is why most of the time when we look at attachment, it's so vital in that first year or two, but definitely first several months of a baby's life to know that they're going to be taken care of.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's what actually affects that attachment from the time that they are born into adulthood.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if I have a parent who, you know, is a drug addict or maybe not responsive to my cries as a newborn, then I am going to develop an unhealthy, insecure attachment style as an adult.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what that looks like is typically with avoidance, is you get into a relationship and you know you want to be close to other people.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: But when they get close, you push them away.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because as a child, you learned I can only depend on myself.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so we get those babies that I believe, if I recall, and I have kids myself.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember doing all the research on how long you can let your baby cry or when you can let them cry it out.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that first six months, you should just never let a baby cry.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason why we don't let them cry it out and we don't try to self-you know, we have to self-soothe or soothe them is because they need to know, again, that they're taken care of.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: They want to attach to you.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I did have a mom, and I I asked my mom uh as I was doing this research, like, was there any time that you just forgot about me or let me cry?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why in my head as a small child did I learn that I could only depend on me?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, that broke my mom's heart because she did everything she could, but I was number five of six, and she had all of us under like in 12 years.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: So to say overwhelm is is not enough, right?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that my personality has always been very quiet and reserved.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was the child, I think I just kind of taught myself to take a back seat because I wasn't the squeaky will in my family.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And my mom did say, you know, I just you didn't come to me with issues, so I ne I just assumed you were okay.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, wow.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so Brit, you know, again, she just she's the sweetest woman ever and wrote me a letter, you know, apologizing and all of that after I had that conversation.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Such good parents, but I still struggle with an avoidant attachment to people because I really don't feel safe depending on other people.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I have to work on every day.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the anxious attachment style still is developed from an unhealthy attachment as a child, but they do the opposite.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, as an adult, if you notice that you feel a little more anxious, you feel a little more clingy, you tend to overthink a lot of things in your relationship and maybe chase the person down.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And when things don't go right, you might be more anxiously attached.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't care if I see someone as a couple or an individual or a family, I think everybody should know what attachment style they have.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's really good information.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I really appreciate the way you articulated that.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: It like helped me to see it really clearly.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can be a bit overwhelming when you're trying to understand.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot out there.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of how they're formed.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And as you were explaining the different types, I kind of saw different relationships and also saw myself too.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I think it it can be really helpful to understand those dynamics.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I also appreciate what you shared about your experience too, because I think sometimes people think that, you know, you maybe you did have a good childhood and there wasn't really any abuse or any significant events that really impacted you.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: But there was still something missing, right?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that missing piece still had a significant impact on your attachment style, your nervous system, and how you relate to people.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it still does, as you've mentioned.
• 12:12
  unknown: Yeah.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people, I feel like, come into counseling or maybe don't even see a counselor, but they're not happy, or they're just like in a state of unrest and they don't know why.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a great example of why someone might be struggling.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, why am I struggling in my relationship?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't I make this work?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't I be successful at this?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Why is this so hard for me?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there's always a reason.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: If, you know, coming to a therapist, they should help you dive into that.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: But on paper, if you look at my life, you would be like, you have zero things to complain about or to say that's why, because I didn't grow up in a horrible, abusive childhood, you know, or and I was educated.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: I had everything basically that I needed.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I find that to be extremely helpful when I work with people because you don't have to be completely broken when you come in to see a counselor or to do your own self-reflection and work to figure out why it is that you're struggling.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes people just accept, like, oh, this is just how things are.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't have to be that way if it's not working for us.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: There are other ways of being and and living life.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I hope that can kind of plant a little seed for anybody listening who is maybe hesitant to reach out and get that support.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't quite clearly explain why they're struggling, but they still know that they are, and there's this sense of something not quite being with understanding and well, I guess with education, right?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Psychoeducation comes a lot of understanding.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I am an advocate of that as a therapist.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: I tend to do a lot of education, even going into the brain and the body and how things are regulated, because at least for me, the more I learn about it, the more it makes sense and it validates my feelings, it validates my experiences, which provides healing, honestly.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: That validation alone provides a lot of healing.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I do a lot of psychoeducation.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I really noticed within myself too.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: The more I learned, the more I understood.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, oh, okay.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And there's like a softening that can kind of happen.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're already really hard on ourselves, right?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to families, I think a big part of what I work with people on when we look at that dynamic and upbringing is getting to a point where you can, in one of my chapters, I talk about like grieve, grieve the loss of a family that you wish you had.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Your family and my whole family is still alive and kicking.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I had to go through a quite a bit of work to come to the realization that I wasn't going to be able to fix anyone else in my family or the dynamics that were happening.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that although I wish, you know, maybe my mom could be like this or my siblings could be like this, I was able to kind of take a step back with time, not super easy, but take a step back and see them for what they were capable of and love them in that way, where instead of looking at you and thinking, like, you should be a better sibling to me.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe you didn't call me on this day or do this or that.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they also have their own kids in their family, and I bet they're doing the best they can.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm going to love them for what they're capable of, as opposed to withhold my love or be upset with them and only hurt myself by trying to put them in a box that they don't fit in.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for naming that.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes we can vilify people, starting to kind of understand these patterns and dynamics.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it is really important to acknowledge people for where they are in their own personal journey and also really honoring the the limitations and and offering some compassion, maybe, which like you said, can be easier.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Easier said than done.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: It takes some time to get to that point.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I think for myself, the more I really loved on myself and showed up for myself and developed that developed that secure relationship with myself, the easier it was then to offer that compassion to yeah, others in my family.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: It makes for, I mean, if we really look at what we're aiming to do on a day-in, day out basis is just be happy, right?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like at least be content, but enjoy our lives.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And in order to do that, it does require a shift in the way we think.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that means we stop vilifying other people.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some people might deserve it, but we know, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: We know if it's out, right?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like you did that on purpose.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: But like the every single day, you know, if someone pulls out, I'm sure you've seen these, you know, memes or things like that, where someone pulls out in front of you in traffic and you could just get on their butt and honk your horn and yell that like they could have just found out someone, you know, got in an accident or to be taking you, just don't know other people's story because we carry a lot on our own day in, day out.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: People don't see our struggles.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: So using that principle of charity, which is, you know, I'm gonna assume the best of you as opposed to going immediately to assuming the worst, when we do that, it's great for the other person, but it's even better for ourselves.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was just kind of feeling that in my own system.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it takes a lot of energy and a lot of effort and it causes a lot of stress on our system too.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, kind of bring that energy to other people.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: I do want to touch on one thing that you mentioned a bit ago too, about having a conversation with your mom, which I think is beautiful, then having her write this letter afterwards, which I think is a really beautiful model of repair.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering for people who maybe don't feel like they can have that conversation with their parents, what you might offer to them.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it it would be unfortunate, right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as a mom myself, I would always want my kids to be able to come to me and ask those questions.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: But for someone who maybe knows their parent a little better and that that wouldn't be taken, you know, taken in and acknowledged or validated, and or maybe their parent has passed.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that working through that, there's still a lot of benefit to processing kind of how you feel.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what a lot of times I recommend my clients do, whether it was for something like this or other emotions, is document, use a journal, write your feelings down.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: If my mom was one in which I didn't feel safe bringing that to, it can still be very powerful to sit down and write a letter to my and say all the things that I say, ask the questions, even if I might not get an answer, be my true raw self when I talk about my attachment and what I'm struggling with as an adult.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And when we do that, even though we don't get the response from them, it is a method that we do start to feel healing because we take a lot of what has been pent up and built up in our minds and our bodies, that level of resentment or frustration.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And we allow ourselves to put it on paper.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so you release that, and then you know, sometimes you can take it that next step and burn it if you want to.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that is typically where I would start with somebody who might need to feel a little bit of repair with a parent who might not be, you know, open to that.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for that.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Really accessible and also really powerful and beautiful.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, yeah, I could see that being really helpful.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: It is just that, you know, we have so much swirling thoughts in our heads all the time.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So this is why journaling in in general is just really helpful for all people.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not I have a lot of clients that are like, yeah, I'm not doing that.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I would never push anyone to do it if they didn't feel like they were getting something out of it.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it can be very helpful for healing.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: That I think that expression piece is really important.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Getting our things, our thoughts sort of like out our minds, out of our bodies, like you were saying, and yeah, getting it into some sort of um, yeah, like tangible.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm also kind of getting this idea of uh uh sending like a or maybe not sending it, but recording a voice note too.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because you're saying it and you're expressing it.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: I do a lot of voice texting and you know, voice notes and things like that just because I feel like it's easier to speak it as opposed to taking the time to write it or type it.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I know in therapy, you know, for someone who might really be struggling, there are therapists that will do role playing, like empty chair, you know, empty chair techniques so you pretend as if your parent is there when they're not, or your therapist can take that role of being your mom and give you the opportunity to truly express how you feel as if your therapist was your mom or your dad.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's reminding me of family consolations therapy.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have much experience with it, but yeah, yeah, there are creative solutions.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like yeah, that's impossible for you.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I think people feel like this feels weird to me, but it is one of those things that if you go through with it with your therapist support and guidance, you actually leave feeling a lot better.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, beautiful.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'd love to segue into parenting styles.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: I know this is something you talk about quite a bit.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I myself, I work with kids as during the day as a teaching artist and program specialist, and you talk a lot about teaching styles.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of see a little bit of overlap there.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: So can you talk to us about the different approaches to parenting and how those different approaches can influence children and impact them going into adulthood?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: So the four main parenting styles that at least I'm I'm aware of or that we talk about a lot is um authoritarian, authoritative, permissive, and then neglectful or chaotic, right?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the first three are probably what we see more than anything.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Authoritarian parents are those that I would say we could label those as very traditional parents nowadays.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe more so like my parents, right?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: My parents are both 80, well, almost 80.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so that traditional mindset of my way or the highway.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you are a parent who is very firm about what your rules are, and there's no room for negotiation or even conversation, you would be considered an authoritarian parent.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: An authoritative parent is what we really need to aim for, or what we want people to aim for.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now, these parents are those that have rules and boundaries, and they want what's best for their kids.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: They want to keep them safe.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: However, they provide An environment where the child has a voice, and that means that they can come to you and be like, Well, I don't know why I have to do that.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you're instead of saying because I said so, you're like, Okay, well, tell me why.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll use my own example.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, my daughter, she's 18 now, but I have been always a very firm advocate of no phones in your rooms at night from the time they had phones, if they're in my room.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I know sleep is important.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Also, what are you looking at on your phone?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: So protection, good parenting, in my opinion.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so but my kids hated it.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was like the only parent that makes their kids turn their, you know, phone in.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And even though I knew there wasn't anything that they would tell me to make me change my mind, my daughter, not my son, he he learned, but she would come in pretty repeatedly and say, I don't understand why I can't keep it in my room.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I would engage in conversation.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, tell me why you think you should keep it in your room.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, Well, everybody else has it, and it's not like I'm gonna be on it.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Well, yeah, I have, you know, the it's like, what is it?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: The time like that that you can control on iPhones, so downtime.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would put downtime on their phone so they couldn't get on it anyway.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that was her excuse or her reasoning of like, you put it on downtime, so it's not that I can use it.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I would just say, that's exactly right.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you could use it, so why does it need to be?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe just as an adult, a step ahead, right?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I did want to give her the opportunity, like, plead your case, right?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps to you if you changed my mind.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I I do think there are moments in which a child might bring something to you as a parent that you're like, you know what, didn't think about that.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go ahead and let them, whatever.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: But we want to do that for our kids.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: We want to keep boundaries, but we also want to teach them to plead their case.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: We want to teach them to speak up for themselves.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: We want to teach them to have conversations that need to be had with their friends and future employers and you know, others in relationships.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And by just cutting them down and saying my way or the highway, you you cut that off and they never learn how to do that.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that is definitely a big part of the authoritative parenting.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, pessimistic parenting, I don't know about you, but I would say I probably see this more than anything now with parents.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And this did I say pessimistic?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's not what I meant.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Permissive.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um permissive parents.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it is what it sounds like.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: These people want to be their children's friends.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And although that doesn't sound bad, it really is so unhealthy for a child.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: A child needs a parent, they need to feel safe.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the way I describe this with my parents is um, not like my own parents, but my clients who are parents, is when kids are born, they're like, we're they're in this bubble that we provide for them, right?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that bubble is supposed to be safe, going back to attachment.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like we want to make sure they know that they're safe.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: However, it is very developmentally normal for a child to push those boundaries.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: So they're gonna get to that side of the bubble and they're gonna push as hard as they can.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Push, like, why can't I stay up a little bit later?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why can't I want to snack?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and they're pushing because that's developmentally normal.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: That is what they're just in nature going to do.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is our job as parents to stick to what we know as parents is healthy for them and keep those boundaries firm.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: The parents that are permissive end up one, just getting tired, which we're all tired as parents.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: But that is the hardest thing I always say.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like the minute you give in, that child has pushed through that bubble.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then next time, even though you try to keep the bubble where it was, they know after 16 times, mom's gonna say yes.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you're signing yourself up one for misery, but and a child who feels like they run the house.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also even more, you're creating a world in which your child does not feel safe.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think parents don't realize that because it just seems like, but we're really good friends and you know, we're buddies and they trust me and they come to me with everything, but they're also out all night and getting into stuff and feeling unsafe.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: But they're never going to tell you that because they think I'm really cool that I don't have a curfew and I can get involved in this stuff, and my mom doesn't care, my dad doesn't care.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: It is doing long-term damage for that child to be in a huge world as a small kid.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so parents who are permissive, we are not meant to be our kids' friends when they're right under 18, at least.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we're meant to be their parents, and I'll always be my kids' parents, even when they're adults.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: But you can't trans, you shouldn't transition out of that.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the boundary, this is what I'm holding, and that's how it's gonna be, until they're of age, and honestly, what is it, 25 now before their prefrontal cortex is fully developed?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: So 25.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at 18, they're out in the world, but still, those brains are so far from being fully developed, you're hurting your child by trying to be their friend.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that hardest thing about that is that parents don't see it until it's too late.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, lastly, that the chaotic, I mean, this is where it again is very self-explanatory.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Those parents who are abusive and neglectful, you know, not there for their kids at all.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, kids come home and don't see their parents run around, do whatever they want, no rules.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, that's just an obvious style of parenting that we should not aim for.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: But the authoritative, as hard as it can be, I think, you know, I remember I have moments in my kids' childhood where I would take their phone from them for a punishment.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, so I'm gonna keep it for a week and a couple of days later, you know, my kid just like there's being so good.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh, you know, maybe I should I feel bad.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I would always stop myself.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, because that is not doing what a good parent should do.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: You stick to what you say, you know, you keep your boundaries, and that is what makes a child feel safe in the world where they are developmentally appropriate in the bubble that they're in, and they're not pushed into a world that's too big for them.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wow.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: So interesting to see that laid out so clearly in those different ways.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I could definitely see a bit of my own story and my parents' uh parenting style.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that really impacted me as you know, I got older, and I do feel like I missed out on those opportunities to stand up for myself and to advocate for myself and you know, sort of give my case, if you will.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I could see how as I got older it made it harder to do that in my relationships and how uncomfortable, of course, with practice, it's gotten a lot easier to have those comfortable conversations.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: But for many years, those conversations just wouldn't be had.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I never was able to make that connection.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for that.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure our listeners are starting to make those connections as well.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when you talked about the permissive parenting style, I had this memory come through of a friend of mine that I grew up with when I was, I would say, from like 12 to like probably like 17.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful woman and better doing that permissive style.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we got into a lot of things that we really had no business getting into at the ages we were getting into.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I can also see how being in that environment really impacted me too, and how it probably significantly impacted her as well.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's that is a very uh it's interesting that you say that because I think that a lot of kids who grow up and it sounds like you're you're born or grew in grew up in a family that was more author authoritarian.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Military household.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: So yes.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, absolutely.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And while there's value to that, you know, not giving you that that that space to share, you know, your concerns or to have conversations, um, you tend to rebel.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I know I did for sure.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was a horrible teenager.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: I to this day will always just apologize to my mom up and down, both of my parents, about the kid that I was.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: But my best friend was also a child of a permissive parent.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so I rebel from my parents and I hang out with this friend who, if I'm honest, when I was in high school, I was like, why can't my parents be like this?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, she's so cool.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: We do whatever we want.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what's sad about that, which I think a lot of parents don't really think about, because we just assume our kids are invincible.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I I experienced some trauma because of that.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I ended up getting into situations that were very traumatic and um that I still struggle with and have had to work through to this day.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then knowing that I had authoritarian parents, of course, I wasn't gonna go home and tell them about any of that.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So carrying a lot of that trauma, when you're an authoritarian parent, your goal is to provide a safe space, but without providing the environment where your kid feels like they can talk to you, yeah, you could actually do a lot more damage.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it sounds like our stories are very similar.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, yep, that's exactly what happened to me too.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, got myself into some really dangerous situations, honestly.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really grateful I'm still here alive to be able to have this conversation with you because perfect example of the bubble again.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, would we put a two-year-old outside and then go inside and take a nap?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, no one in their right mind is doing that.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: But when we're permissive parents, we almost it's like you're not thinking about it like that, but that's what you're doing.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're allowing your child to push through that bubble where they are safe.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: They can hate you.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think everybody's kids kind of hate them sometimes.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: But regardless, you hold that boundary because I know in my head you're that two-year-old kid and you can't do what the world is going to present you with out there.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: You're not wise enough, and your brain isn't developed enough to make wise decisions to think before you do, which could leave you in a really bad situation.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to protect you whether you like it or not.
• 34:35
  unknown: Yeah.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Parenting is it's really sacred.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big responsibility.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: And do do you feel like uh, and I say this with so much love and a grain of salt, but I wonder like how seriously people really consider like parenting to be like how yeah it really is.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: They underestimate, like, no, this really shapes the entire it's a lot of pressure.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a hundred percent.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, it might sound bad, but I kind of wish that there was a test you have to take before you have a child.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Totally uh such a huge responsibility.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I what I tell people, and I'll tell my children, you know, my daughter again, 18, my son 16, but you know, when you have a kid, your life, your preferences, your everything is on the back burner.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a good parent, it becomes about that child.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the normal, I mean, does that mean sometimes you're not sleeping?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that that kid runs your life in a lot of ways.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's the biggest blessing I've ever had for sure.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: But how many days I can't even count that I have been just exhausted, or I've wanted to give in.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or, I mean, gosh, I remember after my daughter was born, she was a horrible sleeper as a baby.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like holding her and I loved her with every fiber of my being.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I was like, what did I do?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: What did I do to my life?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm never gonna sleep again.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's that kind of stuff.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be ready to sacrifice the world as you knew it for something that is so much really just incredible.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know it until it happens, but it is a sacrifice, and too many people get into it a lot of times, unfortunately, thinking like a baby's gonna fix me or it's gonna make me feel better, this baby's gonna love me when no one else loves me, or it's gonna save my relationship.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it is like that is not why we have kids.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, yeah.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I I agree.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: I do feel like we could benefit from some sort of system of self-face, support people, or yeah, kind of redirect people if if they're not coming from it with the right intentions, because yeah, it it really does significantly change your life, and and not treating it as such has a really big impact on that child.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why we're seeing so many, you know, of the issues that we see nowadays with increasing rates of anxiety and depression, just systemically, like what we're experiencing in the world, like it sounds kind of crazy, but I feel like it really all comes back to our childhood.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we have a system um with our therapists in my practice that any child who comes in to see us also has to have their parents involved.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, meaning the parents have to come to therapy as well.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many parents that will reach out and want help for their child, which is great, but they are like, drop my kid, I'll fix them, right?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not how it works.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: These kids are blank slates.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: We as parents create these children, we give them the environment that they grow up in.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then if they're they're developing anxiety or they're struggling in ways, a lot of what we're doing is probably playing a role in that.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so many parents want to, you know, stay away, avoid, and just like it's just my kid, but it's not.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so going back to that childhood and the pressure, and that's a lot of pressure for parents, but gosh, there's so many great books out there on proper parenting and attachment styles and like making sure that you're doing everything you can.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, therapists are out there too.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're not sure, like, am I messing my kids up?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: What should I do?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do I handle these things?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Then talk to somebody who's a professional and I'll have them help you with it.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because the resource is out there, right?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean you've been able to learn about this on your own, and I have as well.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's where we could start to kind of segue the conversation into, you know, if listeners are seeing either pieces of themselves in the parenting style or maybe in their childhood, how do we go about creating new cycles and and breaking these old ones that are no longer working?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like everybody is different as far as how change comes for them.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: The first step is obviously being aware, right?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: So hearing this and being like, wow, that sounds like me.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need to change some things.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you are uh very self-directed and you're like a goal getter and you know you're you're on top of it, again, there's a lot of resources out there.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm thinking maybe I have an unhealthy attachment style and that's affecting my relationship, or I am maybe I am too permissive of a parent, how do I become better at that?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it is harder to go backwards, right?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: If I start as a permissive parent, it's going to be hard before it gets easy.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: But do the research and look into resources.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if you are someone that just kind of feels overwhelmed by it, um, you're already exhausted, but you love those kids more than anything, you want to provide them with the best future possible, reach out to a therapist.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, every sometimes people are not sure, which sometimes surprises me, but I think it's always worth worth noting when you're looking for a therapist, there's several different ways you can do that.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Psychology today is one that I refer people to a lot.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if you have insurance, all you have to do is call the number on the back of your insurance card and ask for mental health providers within five miles or 10 miles of you, and they give you a list and then you can pick from there.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really not hard to find people.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to kind of do the legwork ahead of time to figure out who's going to be the best fit for you.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because they're out there, right?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, for sure.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of waiting lists, honestly, our practice is so full of kids.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: I can't get enough therapists to treat these children.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: It is the the rise in kids who need therapy, is just over the last six years, I've had this practice.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I've done this for 20 years, but even in the last six years that I've had my practice, it has probably gone up 200% in the number of referrals that we get for kids.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I do put that on our society, you know, social media, um, the phones, you know, a lot of kids, their upbringing, you know, their background just being lost in a big world.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: But the there are people out there who can and are that's what they want to do, right?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: As therapists, we want to help people.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: So not being afraid to reach out because a lot of times people think, well, that might show people that I'm not a good parent, or that's embarrassing to me.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: But it's actually the opposite.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like the parents who seek out support, you're the strong ones, you're the ones that are saying, This is hard.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know what I'm doing.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I I had so many times with my daughter, because she's my oldest, and I would be like, Listen, I'm doing this for the first time.
• 41:57
  unknown: Yeah.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I know I'm gonna mess up.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: So going to ask for support makes you a stronger person.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we're not meant to do it alone.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, our Western culture to to think that like we can just tackle these things all alone, and our systems just literally are not biologically hardwired in that way.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: We really need support, and yeah, it can really have a significant impact on our quality of life and our children's quality of life too.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's just having that right support.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I was a single mom pretty much most of my kids' life.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: So from the time my son was one and she was three, and I am definitely uh like I'll do it myself, right?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm an avoidant attached person.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just me.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I had to really come to terms with the fact that we are social creatures.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: We're meant to be in relationship with other people and that leaning on others, you know, doesn't have to be family, you know.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: If my family can't be the people that I can depend on, then you find friends who then become like your family.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are support groups for people who going through the same parenting challenges, looking for that if you're not wanting to do one-on-one.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes those support groups can really help because you're in a community with other people who are like, yep, that's what I'm going through too.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that alone is also extremely validating.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's more important now than ever to build these support networks around us because it's not getting any easier with our political environment and just the technological advancements and the impact that that has on our systems and especially with the kiddos, too, right?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're I can't imagine, like, I'm so grateful I didn't grow up in that generation with social media and Instagram, smartphones, because it really does a lot of damage.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: And even as an adult, I have a hard time managing on Instagram and I have all these things.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that I have to put in place on myself too.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know I have conversations with adults about you know the AI, Chat GBT, things like that.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's great for people my age and older, you know, or those like our generation because we grew up without that stuff.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the way I use chat GBT is like, you know, what part of this, you know, contract should I change, you know, or what things like that.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas we get kids who are looking to chat GPT, and I say kids, I even mean people I've had clients in their 20s using Chat GPT for how do I respond to this text?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like how do I have a conversation about X, Y, or Z?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like they don't even know how to have conversations because they are on their phones 24-7, parents not regulating that.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I have my friends right next to me, but we're texting, we never even talk like face to face.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: That is so sad to me.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's so sad.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say, like, again, being kind of a very stickler on a phone for my kids when they were young.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: My daughter had, I remember when she turned 10, she had a big birthday party and 10.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of kids having phones and things like that.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, yes.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: You need a phone at 10 years old.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I don't even know.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this was like eight years ago, so it's probably even worse now.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: But they all had phones, and I, you know, was doing her cake and stuff and walk.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: In the family room, and every single one of those girls, except my kid, because she wasn't allowed, was on their phone.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Give me your phones.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I this is so not happening.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: And my daughter would complain about it because she's like, But they're on their phone.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I would not let her have a phone.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or you know, when she did, she was not allowed to have it when she was with her friends.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, with your friend, go play.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: But kids just they don't have that, that's not the world they're growing up in.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I have some really great parent clients who are still trying to live in that world of like, I'm not giving you a phone until you're 16.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: And those poor kids, they're almost bullied because of it.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just and so I mean, I value so much what the parents are doing, but in the world that we're in, it's almost impossible to not have to find a way to navigate around the phones and social media and all of that, because it just is everywhere.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I appreciate you naming that because it's maybe not so easy to just say, well, you just can't have any phone or screens, you know, because the world that we live in, it's it's almost impossible.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it's happening all around us too.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you really do have to find a way that works for you and for your family.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'd love to talk a little bit more um about the family unit too.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's, you know, we've kind of talked about social media and being on our phones, and so I'd like to talk about some of the things that we can maybe model in our homes that, you know, maybe support that more functional environment.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of that, in my opinion, depends on the the ages of your children.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I will say as adults, right, like we have phones, we have work, we have emails, we have whatever.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of that depends on also your job.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the biggest thing that families really need to aim for is to have, if you can, the ability to come home and set all of that stuff aside and be present.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now I realize that's not the case for everybody, and that's myself included, as someone who runs a business.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like basically on call 24-7.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I still have to prioritize my own self-care, which I feel like that's what that is.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Set your phone aside, turn it off, put your email away, be present.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just heard someone talking the other day about how a lot of times we're sitting with our kids talking to them, and they're talking to us, and we're on our phone doing something at the same time.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, I'm listening to you.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: I can, you know, multitask, but that is not being present.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: And your kids see that, your partner sees that, your family sees that, strangers see that.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so, really learning that it's okay to put social media, phones, TVs, all of it, unplug, even if it's just for an hour a day, which is not enough.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: But even if that's all it is, sitting down and having dinner together, where people just don't do that as much anymore.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely grew up that way, you know, dinner all of us around the table, and I value that.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: But it's crazy how when you sit down with your kids and they don't have a phone, that was always still is a rule.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I sit down with my parents and I'm like, put your phone away.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's my own parents.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: But because it forces you to have conversation.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know, and there was something I always did with my kids when, especially when they're younger, it kind of stopped as they got older.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, what was the best thing that happened to you today and what was the worst thing, you know?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that that creates conversation, but it also creates an opening into your kids' world where what if I didn't ask that question?
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think I would find out what the worst thing about their day was?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so so much growth and closeness can come from unplugging.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, again, if you are one in which has that busy life and you're kind of on call, I don't know, I'm sure they're out there, but I don't know many employers or people who would not let you unplug for an hour, you know, to have your dinner or to sit and be present with your family.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: Play with your kids, go outside.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like kids just don't go outside anymore.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Go take a walk, get some fresh air.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Anything that families can do, in my opinion, that is being present, like I'm looking at you, I'm talking to you, I'm not distracted, is just going to do wonders for everybody in that family.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's something so simple, not always easy.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Very true.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Simple.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Just this idea of presence and being present with someone and making eye contact.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: And on a biological level, our nervous systems benefit so much from that.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we get really nourished by that that really uh attuned connection, not where we're, you know, distracted on a phone because someone else is talking to us because that's not the same thing.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: Goes back to those mirror neurons that we look at with babies, right?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where you need to look at a baby in the face and they're looking and they're mirroring you.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't change as we get adults, you know, or become adults.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: We still have those mirror neurons and we want to connect in that way.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes too, that can be a lot of where the the struggles we're seeing with with kiddos these days is because parents are on their phones and they're not present, and so they don't get the opportunity to develop those those skills on a biological level because they're not being met with presence at home.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: I um I'm an introvert and um I'm a homebody.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: So as a therapist who talks to people for a living, um, being introverted makes me pretty tired at the end of the day.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: If I've had a full day of clients, and I'm sure every parent knows this, but the times that my kids always want to talk to me is like when I'm trying to go to bed.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: So at the end of the day, and we eat, and then I'm like, okay, my downtime, and I get in my bed and then I'm ready to turn the light out, and they come in and all of a sudden want to share their whole life story with me.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: Those have been times where I have in my head, I've been so exhausted, but I'm like, they're talking to you, right?
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Especially as teenagers.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you sit there and you you just take it all in.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: And my daughter at 18, she just moved and she stays away now.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's those times that I feel like even in the moment if you're tired, you're gonna miss those days.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna want that and that creation, like creating the environment where your kids want to come and talk to you because they know they they have your attention, yeah, is huge as far as those parenting styles too, and creating a safe space for those kids to feel like they can come to you with anything.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I I also think like I wonder if, and maybe this is something you have done with your child, I'm not sure your children, but like being honest about where you are, like being like, hey, you know, I'm really tired and I'm so excited to hear what you have to share with me.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna do my best to listen.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: But if I seem a bit tired, yes, that's fine.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my kids will make fun of me because I I'm like they tuck me into bed.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like they're at that age now, or I'm almost always in bed before they are.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I do, you know, and that was something as I was talking, I was gonna mention is that, you know, what about the parent who has, you know, four kids under the age of six, and one of your kids is like, mom, guess what happened outside?
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you're cooking dinner and the baby's crying.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think that it might not always be possible to be present in that moment, but it's okay to say, Hey, you know what, Jimmy, I'm so excited to to hear what happened.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give me just a minute?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: The baby's crying, I gotta finish this, and then I'm gonna come and we're gonna talk about it.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that is okay too, right?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: Even if in the moment you can't do it, doesn't mean you can't do it at all.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that also teaches kids patience, and you know, that you will then follow through so it teaches them to trust you.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot that comes with that to delay um gratification in some ways is also very healthy for kids.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wonderful.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this has been such a rich conversation, and yeah, we're kind of slowly reaching the end of our time together today.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I want to talk about, we've talked a little bit about like how to go about making these changes, but maybe you could speak to like why is it maybe so difficult to make these changes?
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if we are finding difficulty, uh, what might be some strategies that we can maybe use?
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's creating new habits, right?
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they say, I always tell people that it takes like 60 to 90 days, it might be more, it might be more or less.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's for me, I always say 60 to 90 days to create a new habit.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that the biggest thing when we're trying to create these new habits is one, we have to give ourselves grace.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: So on the days that maybe you fall short and your kid tries to talk to you and you snap at them, or you're a permissive parent that's trying to do better and then you let the boundary go.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: What we don't want to do is get so down on ourselves for it that then it's like, you know, you're on a diet and you fall off the wagon, you're like, well, now I'm just gonna eat everything.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to do that.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: So seeing small, um, like focus on the small victories.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: And also, this is more of kind of a life coaching thing, but how do you accomplish your goals?
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like be very clear about what it is that I'm doing now that I want to change, and how am I gonna get there?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: We have to make those goals measurable and we have to have a way to track them.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: So if my goal is to make sure I'm more present with my kids, meaning, you know, I thought I was, but now I can't even look at my phone.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna really be present, then I would tell a client, like, put a post-it note on your fridge and on your bathroom mirror and on the table next to the couch, everywhere you can that says be present, because our brains are so overloaded with things on a daily basis.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: And our habits are second nature.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like we're thinking about every step we take.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to remind our brain as often as possible of what those goals are, at least up front.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that helps us be more consistent on creating the habits that we need to.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, again, going back, if you're not sure how to make a change, then that's where I would say speak to a professional or look up the books on it.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but as far as changing those things, like be clear about the what the goal is and find a way to track it until it does become second nature for you.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a practical way to yeah, really support that behavior change.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, yeah, it is like you said, it's it's habitual, right?
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: All of these things are habits and just the way that these habits were created, they they can be changed and we can create habits.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: And absolutely the piece about offering grace is important too, because if we think about how long it took to create these habits, yes, yeah, you know, maybe not as long, but it's gonna take some time to to undo them as well.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're no one's perfect, right?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not aiming for perfection, but you're aiming for improvement and and even reminding yourself of why, you know.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I I'm just a strong advocate of the post-it notes or little reminders, and sometimes even, you know, putting your screensaver on your phone, whatever that statement is, like put it in a note and make it your screensaver.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: The more we see that, as you know, with the brain, like our brain makes that connection.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: And every time we read that or we even say it out loud, that neural connection gets stronger.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to add strength to that over time.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: So then it does become second nature.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, you can throw all those post-it notes out.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: But until then, it's a it's always a great way to be reminded of that.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, beautiful.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: Any other final words you want to offer our listeners today, Amanda?
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I think we've had a lot of really great, I would imagine that if I'm someone listening to this, it might feel like a lot of a lot of information that's overwhelming.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess like what I would want to say to anyone is to try to focus on one thing at a time.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you're wanting to make a positive change in your life or for your kids, it doesn't have to be everything all at once.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: One small change makes a world of difference, especially in a kid's life and your own.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: So not trying to tackle everything at once.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: And again, giving yourself grace in the ways that you make changes, the fact that you're listening and you want to make a change is already a huge step.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's very in alignment with the work that we do here, the slow, sustainable changes.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I would just like to offer the uh the boat at sea analogy and the two-degree shift.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: If we just have that two-degree change, yeah, we can kind of end up in a completely different place with just a little adjustment.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, beautiful.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Amanda, how can listeners connect with you or maybe learn more about your practice if they're feeling inspired after today's conversation?
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: I've got um, so my private practice website is uh www.connectionsofope.com.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's pretty much where you can get all your information there.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: I do have a podcast, but that is also linked to my website, as is my book.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if that's something that someone wanted to look at, that's probably the best way to reach me specifically, and or if someone was local to look up and and get some counseling too.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: We are happy to help with that.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: We'll put all those in the show notes.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't catch your book, so I'm excited to explore that and add it to my resources as well.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, awesome.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for your time today, Amanda.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: This has been a really rich conversation.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.