Latest / Just Be True ~ A Soul-Led Podcast / You Know More Than You Know: Hypnosis, Self-Love, and the Wisdom of the Body

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You Know More Than You Know: Hypnosis, Self-Love, and the Wisdom of the Body · Just Be True ~ A Soul-Led Podcast

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What if you already hold far more wisdom and
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far more power to change than you consciously
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realize? Welcome to Just Be True, a soul -led
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podcast. I'm Summer and today I am joined by
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Anna Greer for an expansive conversation about
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hypnosis, the unconscious mind, and the wisdom
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of the body and what it truly means to come home
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to ourselves. Anna is an Oxford -educated professor,
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certified hypnotherapist, a therapeutic coach,
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and synomic healer practitioner. Through her
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work with Hypno Catalyst, she brings together
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academic research, nervous system awareness,
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and hypnosis energy psychology with and with
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more than five decades of spiritual practice.
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At the heart of her approach, she is the belief
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that the body is not something simply to control
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or overcome. It is an intelligent partner of
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our healing. In our conversation, Anna explains
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why all hypnosis is ultimately self -hypnosis
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and how past experiences can become embedded
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within our psychology and how imagination can
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help us create new responses to discover greater
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choices. So we also explored self -love, relationships,
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trauma, anxiety, belonging, and the difference
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between using spirituality as an escape and living
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it as an grounded in body and fully human way.
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I absolutely love that. So in our conversation
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becomes deeply personal as we reflect on the
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experiences that shaped us the past. that led
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us to this work and the importance of trusting
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the process without needing to control every
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outcome. I mean how many of us try to do that
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right? Anna leaves us with a beautiful reminder
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you are so much more than you know and you know
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so much more than you realize and if you have
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ever wondered whether the wisdom that you have
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been seeking is already living within you this
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conversation is especially for you. So let's
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dive in. Alright, let's get into it. Welcome
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everybody back to Just Be True, a solo podcast.
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I am Summer and I am so excited to have Anna
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Greer with me here today. Lovely to have you
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on the show. It's delightful to be here. Thanks
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for asking me. Absolutely. And so I am really
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truly interested in learning about your your
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work in the hypnotherapy aspect of it, and what
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they call you is the, I just want to make sure
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I get this right, hypnocatalyst, is that correct?
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Yeah, that's the name of my website, but one
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of my former academic colleagues calls me the
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hypnocatalyst, which I always find amusing, because
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I think we're all hypnocatalysts at the end of
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the day. So what drew you to hypnotherapy as
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part of your work? Well, it initially began because
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I trained with an organization that looks at
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chronic fatigue syndrome. And one of the modalities
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that was briefly visited there was Ericksonian
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conversational hypnosis work and very light trance
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work, the kind of uptime trance you get with
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NLP, that kind of thing. And I just really enjoyed
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it. I think I've always been into, you know,
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as being someone who's had lots of altered altered
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state experiences as a child, I had mystical
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states. I was an incredible daydreamer. So I'd
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always lived in very material sense of the power
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of the imagination. Then as a lawyer, I was very
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aware of the power of language to shift realities
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and perceptions and all of that. felt very natural
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when I was doing this particular training to
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go deeper into the hypnotic, which is what I
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did. So I kind of booked in for several more
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courses alongside that one and just became a
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complete input junkie for a number of years on
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all things hypnotic. And it is incredible how
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much of life is hypnosis and is not acknowledged
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as such. And I think it was Erickson himself
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who said, He sees his job as breaking the trances
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people are already in so that they have a wider
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choice of perhaps a more productive kind of trance
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they might want to enter. So, yeah, it's really
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about the power we have to shift our lived experience.
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The way in which with with such agents in that
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even though we don't have total control But we're
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agents in it and the way in which the way we
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frame and lens and understand things Literally
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changes our lived experience of the world and
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I'm thinking that's enormously powerful So I
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love Yeah, so I love studying that. I just I
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love that whole field So that's so interesting.
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I love hypnosis to like I'm telling you, like,
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I got to a point where I was somewhat addicted
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to it because I enjoyed it so much. Right. And
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I mean, and it can be extremely healing and show
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you things about yourself that you may not be
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able to see any other way. Well, we always know
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more than we know we know. And somehow accessing
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that. More than conscious knowing the distributed
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intelligence of the system Let's face it the
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neocortex and our cognitive functions very small
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compared to the distributed intelligence of our
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system So yeah, we discover loads through engaging
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directly with what we call the unconscious, right?
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Right Right. Oh, that's, I mean, I love that.
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And then our unconsciousness. So I'm really interested
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in how you've either experienced yourself or
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you've seen your clients be able to take a look
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at themselves from this different perspective.
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Right. And what type of like realizations or
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I want to say kind of like new truths that they've
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discovered that they've been able to move forward
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with. I think the first thing I want to say is
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I think the unconscious is an area that we could
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like explore from different angles. I mean, the
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Freudian unconscious is like this basement where
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we have all this repressed materials and drives
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and all that. And I'm distinctly not a Freudian
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in my view of what the unconscious is. So I'm
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much more drawn to Ericson's Milton Ericson,
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who saw the unconscious as this vast repertoire
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of intelligences and capacities that's fundamentally
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benign and works on our behalf intelligently
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and creatively, which I think is a great metaphor
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for what's going on. It might be more than a
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metaphor, but certainly it's a powerful metaphor.
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So it's that that I elicit with clients. Like
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what I'm really interested in is getting clients
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to understand that they have an immense benign
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capacity. That is their own, fully their own.
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That as a hypnotist, I'm simply helping them
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access. Like I don't control them. I don't take
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over. All hypnosis is self -hypnosis in that
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sense. But we enter this realm of what we call
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imagination, but we can go very, very deep. And
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you know, you know some as well as I do that
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certain thoughts instantly bring on certain neurotransmitters
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and tides of hormones into the physiology of
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the body that mean we feel a certain thing, immediately
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we have a certain kind of thought. like we can
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we can think stressful thoughts and our heart
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starts racing because actually the brain can't
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tell the difference between what we call what's
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objectively real or what we imagine is just out
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there and what's actually in here and so the
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great gift that clients get and it's probably
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the same with your clients is they they learn
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that this incredible power that we have as beings
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to actually inhabit a realm within ourselves
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that enables us to access capacities that we
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might also unconsciously have been holding down.
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So for example, if as a child, before I was verbal,
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before I could reason, I learned that a particular
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expression in my caregiver was a dangerous thing,
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then as an adult in an adult relationship, my
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partner might pull that expression and my whole
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physiology is likely to respond associatively
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as if I'm two years old right the clue is in
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the enormity of the feeling right it's often
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now all proportion to what's actually happening
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but if I can start to re -experience that through
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imagination through hypnosis through playing
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with the unconscious I get these different neuro
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-associations very rapidly and that old association
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can collapse and I can choose Other associations
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that are more productive for my adult function
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and so really i'm using my what i think what
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we think of as our imagination to materially
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change. my physiological and lived experience
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of an interaction in a way that teaches me that
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i don't need to go into that old response which
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by definition means i have a choice of new responses
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so i think that's the greatest gift we give to
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our clients as we say here is an otherwise here
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is the beyond where you currently are that is
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so much more invitational, so much more expansive,
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so much more empowering for you. So that, I think,
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is the joy of this work. I mean, I literally
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watch people change in front of my eyes. I literally
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see questions or comments or frames land in a
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way where you can see the lights coming on and
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the aha and that moment of shift where nothing
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can ever be the same again, which is wonderful.
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I love seeing those shifts in people, right?
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It's like, I don't know, it's kind of almost
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like, oh wow, this is really it. I can really
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do this. And I think those are amazing to be
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able to see that and know that somebody is walking
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away changed, right? And changed for the better,
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right? To be able to bring something out upon
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them. I mean, that's powerful work. Right. I
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mean, powerful work. And so, you know, I think
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there's also, you know, I'd love to get your
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opinion on this is like, yeah, we do the work
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in the hypnosis and some it may be as easy as
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going forward with this new belief, but others,
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it may take additional work. Yep. For sure. I
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mean, if you're looking at a pattern that's been
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embedded and reproduced, repeated over decades,
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say, Sometimes it's like a complex system, right?
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You can't always tell the tipping points. And
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sometimes an apparently small tipping point has
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an enormous impact, but you can't guarantee that,
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right? And sometimes you need to add, to stack
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a number of tipping points so that the system
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learns, oh, I can do this. And you learn it often
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unconsciously. I mean, the story that I keep
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coming back to time and time again that always
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amazes me is when I was about 16, I was reading
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a book about a woman, a young woman who had anorexia
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nervosa. And, you know, they'd taken her to,
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you know, psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists
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of various kinds. She wasn't making any progress.
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And then there was this and I can't remember
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the context, but I do remember she was in the
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garden with her mother and her mother was picking
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plums. And her mother just sort of casually polished
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a plum on her shirt and held it to her daughter
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and said, here, have a bite. And in that moment
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of taking a bite, that young girl, her whole
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system shifted. After that, the anorexia disappeared.
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Now, that's an unforeseeable, completely wonderful,
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massively influential, tiny thing that changed
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her life. Could we have predicted it ahead of
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time? No. And that's the wonderful thing. And
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yeah, you're right. Sometimes clients need to
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learn new habits. They need to habituate to different
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modes of being. They need to really inhabit the
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change state to know that it's not just a state.
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It can become embedded as a trait and can become
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a new set point for them to operate from. And
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sometimes that does take time depending on the
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issue. Right. Yeah. But I mean, it's definitely,
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definitely possible for us all to be able to
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step into that new reality. And yeah, and bring
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on a different awareness and even probably like
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not only awareness, but even maybe I don't know,
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like my the first time I did hypnosis for anything
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like mine was a past life. I'm literally it changed
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everything for me. Like in that one session changed
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everything for me and I'm sure you've seen that
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also across your clients as well. Yeah Yeah,
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I mean the clients I've worked with most have
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complex chronic fatigue Right and often often
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It's not just like a belief obviously we bring
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belief to everything we do. We're inevitably
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going to be constructing reality because that's
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how we work as beings. And sometimes those interpretations
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of reality, of their past, whatever, are the
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thing that's keeping them a bit locked. But other
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times it's things like poor alignment with circadian
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biology. Like we're material beings. Our cells
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are millennia older than the neocortex. You know,
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my mitochondria are millennia older than my neocortex
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and so direct sunlight on my you know on my body
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and into my supracrasmic nucleus communicates
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to trillions of cells through that simple mechanism
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now if i work with someone and i work hypnotically
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i can take them a certain distance but if materially
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they're still performing habits that keep fatigue
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locked in the system because of the intelligence
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of the body itself i need to help them understand
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their physiology better So it's, yes, I do see
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enormous shifts, but also the shifts come from
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things that are just about alignment between
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the amazing miracle of our flesh and the world
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in which we evolved over millennia as beings.
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And that to me is an extraordinary thing. And
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even that itself. is a shift because once people
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understand that and how simple it is actually
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to align ourselves to those more ancient patterns
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of being, people also get shifts that that come
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from that aha moment when they realize hey, I'm
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not doing anything wrong. It's not that this
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thing that happened to me in my childhood has
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crippled me. It's that there's this complex series
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of things that are all coming together, layer
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upon layer, to mean that my body, my physiology,
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my unconscious, we've all moved in a direction
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that is now unhelpful. How do I get back to something
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more resourceful and homeostatic? Often it's
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layer by layer. But in that, I think, hypnosis
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is enormously powerful. And being able to allow
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us to see that and so what I'm hearing is it's
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not only like things to sit in our subconscious
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But our body holds information as well Yeah,
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yeah, I mean I for me I mean, you know You might
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have a different definition because there obviously
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are lots of different ways of understanding this
16:50
But for me the distributed intelligence of the
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body is the unconscious, you know, it's doing
16:56
things all the time like the autonomic nervous
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system is automatically responding unconsciously.
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there's no way we could be conscious of everything
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because it would just overwhelm us. So I feel
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that the unconscious itself is a wonderful adaptation
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that says, I'm going to associate these things
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for you to save you having to revisit this over
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and over as you navigate a complex world. And
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so, you know, the reticular activating system
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in the in the brain is a brilliant example of
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this. I just bought had to buy actually a new
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car. And I noticed that every other car is now
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the same as mine. It's not that I've manifested
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loads of identical cars. It's that my reticular
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activating system, because I made that choice,
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has gone, this is important to you. I'll show
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you some more. That's a paradigmatic example
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of the unconscious at work, right? Right. Right.
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No, I mean, yeah. Yeah, or like you get your
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focus on something then you see those over and
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over and over again, right? Whether it's good
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or bad. And we definitely would want it to be
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the good things that we want. I know at one point
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I was like really concerned about someone very
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close to me, their physical health. And I'm going
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to tell you, I saw ambulances all over the place.
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And I think it was because it was my concern
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for them and the fact that they may have to.
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Have to go there and realizing that that's just
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the universe showing that to me, but it may not
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necessarily be me manifesting anything No, I
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think it's more likely to have been that your
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unconscious processes were Circling around this
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person and your reticular activating system was
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reflecting back to you the nature of your concern
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I mean we could talk about energy as well because
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that's an interesting one right because I find
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that where we put our attention energetically,
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that's obviously where our energy tends to flow
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to. And I know, I think you work with energy,
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don't you, Summer? I do, yes. Yeah. And I do
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to a certain extent. I mean, I find sometimes
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when I'm working with clients, this enormous
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energy just shows up in the interaction. And
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I know it's for them. And I'll say, you know,
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I don't hypnotize them to feel it. I don't, I
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don't presuppose it. I just say, I'm feeling
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something, are you feeling it? And it's totally
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open. So they're perfectly able to say, no, I'm
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not right. But nine times out of 10, they say,
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oh yeah, I can really feel that. And then it's
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a case of like, what does the process need from
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us? Like there's no control. There's just an
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allowing then for them and me as the person holding
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that space to see what emerges. And sometimes
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the things that emerge are completely left field.
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Yeah, just come out of nowhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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But they're needed at that time and in that space.
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It's funny. Sometimes I can see energy. I don't
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see energy all the time like others do. Today,
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I saw energy when I was getting ready for this
20:16
call. And actually, I see it moving now. There's
20:21
something energetically moving over there on
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the other side of the room. And I can just see
20:28
it going back and forth. It's more like waves,
20:32
like energy waves. And I'm just like, well, that's
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interesting, because I mean, yeah. That's interesting.
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So how do you feel when you look at the energy?
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What does it bring up? I feel like I'm hearing
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the word observer. So it's definitely something
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that's here to observe. I get a sense that they're
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here to like give key points, but I'm not really
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like I'm hearing key observer and I'm hearing
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key points. So I don't know. Very interesting.
21:07
Yeah. So, but I feel that they're definitely,
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I mean, because look, I do podcasts all the time
21:13
in this space, or, you know, recordings and things
21:15
all the time here. And this is the first time
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I've seen something so adamant across the room,
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right? That's very interesting. That's interesting.
21:24
Yeah, it is. I mean, I mean, it's one thing being
21:26
in here when I'm doing healings, because when
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I'm doing healings, I can feel a lot of that
21:30
energy. And it's like somebody wants to You know,
21:34
well, you're the one that's doing the work. I
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was like, no, I'm just the facilitator. I'm just
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I'm just the one that helps that energy travel
21:42
to particular pinpoint. So I was like, I'm not,
21:46
you know, whatever is connecting through me and
21:48
what the energy that's connecting through me
21:50
and whatever is creating and, you know, bringing
21:53
that on is what's doing the healing. I'm just
21:56
I'm just a tool. Yeah. Yeah. The kind of. servant
22:02
of it in the sense that you're serving the moment
22:05
in front of you, right? Which I think is the
22:08
deepest, one of the deepest spiritual practices
22:11
actually is having an attitude of how you serve
22:14
the moment right in front of you, that moment
22:16
there and then how you serve it. Because there's
22:19
so much we can't know and don't know and perhaps
22:22
shouldn't know because we might be tempted to
22:25
control outcomes in ways that actually are limiting
22:28
or egoic, you know, that are about our ego. And
22:32
there's something wonderful about being able
22:34
to trust a process. And I'm sure you see it time
22:39
and time again. I do. It never ceases to amaze
22:42
me what people produce unconsciously, what comes
22:45
out in situations where you're engaging. in a
22:50
process with someone, I'm always amazed by the
22:54
kind of surprising connections and the creativity
22:57
and sometimes very often, well, actually pretty
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often by the playfulness that is at work, right?
23:04
The playfulness, the likeness, the, yeah, the
23:07
invitational nature of it. And it's never forceful.
23:12
It's beautiful, beautiful work. And I did train
23:17
in theta energy psychology a long time ago. And
23:22
before that, I had some energetic experiences
23:25
in the Christian house church movement. So laying
23:29
on of hands and all of that stuff in the past.
23:34
And it just never ceases to amaze me how we have
23:38
these experiences and yet we bring all these
23:40
different frameworks to how we understand it.
23:44
I don't have any answers about what it ultimately
23:48
is, but I don't feel I need to. Right. Yeah.
23:52
And I'm going to tell you, like, my best work
23:55
is done when I step out of the way, right? Because
23:59
if I tried to put my thought process into it
24:02
or my mind or my ideas into it, it's wrong 100
24:06
% of the time. And yet you are the one through
24:10
which it's moving. So you are involved, but it's
24:12
just non -cognitive. Right? Yeah. Like I'm not
24:15
putting this mind, right? Like my personal thought
24:19
process and bias into the situation. I allow
24:22
it to flow through and come through intuitively
24:25
through the whatever needs to bring that message
24:29
or that connection in. Yeah. And so, yeah. And
24:33
so I would really love to hear about like your
24:36
thought and your connection with helping people
24:41
how to trust their relationship with their own
24:43
selves and their own bodies. Right. So that's
24:50
something I do quite a bit in the sense that
24:52
I have a program called Somatic Liberation, the
24:55
deep intelligence healing system. And that's
24:57
really about, I mean, as a scholar, I was a theorist,
25:03
philosopher type theorist. And what I notice
25:06
in Westerners particularly is that we're very
25:10
prone to driving our bodies like machines or
25:13
thinking in terms of just optimizing our bodies.
25:16
We sort of think of them as a thing that we have
25:20
or that we're in. And I feel that this is quite
25:24
a limiting view of what bodily life really is.
25:30
And so I think of the body as a flawed teacher
25:34
as a guru of ancient, an ancient cascade of intelligences.
25:40
And so when I work with people, I work with them
25:43
on several layers in terms of coming home to
25:45
their embodied knowing. And at the core of that,
25:49
I would say is self love. Because a lot of people,
25:54
a lot of people aren't in touch with how to really
25:56
radically love themselves. And sometimes they
25:59
have to access it through a very creaturely way.
26:02
So for example, if you say to a client who's
26:06
got chronic fatigue and you say they've had a
26:08
terrible childhood and years of stress and years
26:10
of toxins and all the things that can lead to
26:13
those complex conditions, if you start just talking
26:17
about self -love, a lot of people just can't
26:19
relate to it. They don't even know where to start
26:22
with self -love. So one of the things I use hypnosis
26:26
for is encouraging them to learn self -hypnosis
26:31
so that they can, because trance amplifies their
26:34
states, to imagine in their hand some creature
26:40
or being that they can absolutely unconditionally
26:42
love. And it's often a childhood pet. Some being
26:46
that at some point in their life they had a completely
26:49
uncomplicated lovingness for. and then to when
26:54
they really really feel it and they feel and
26:56
see the energy and they absolutely know that
26:59
feeling of unconditional self you know of unconditional
27:02
love to that being then to bring it in to their
27:05
own body focusing on the felt sensation of a
27:11
sacred kind of touch when they bring their hands
27:14
to their own body and then to expand that energy
27:17
through their system and to do that repeatedly
27:20
so that's One kind of core thing is the self
27:23
love aspect. But in terms of like getting people
27:27
to get attuned to their body, first of all. there's
27:31
some early hypnotic experiences that are designed
27:34
to break unconscious limitations and then I've
27:37
got this whole thing that I invite people into
27:40
which is this really long check -in with like
27:43
all the aspects of human well -being, physiological,
27:46
emotional, mental, spiritual aspects and it's
27:49
not designed to overwhelm anyone because like
27:51
I doubt anyone would ever be doing them all.
27:54
It's designed to show people where the low -hanging
27:57
fruit are. Oh, I'm doing X and Y. I can easily
28:00
add this. And then they go into self -directed
28:04
neuroplasticity, which is really some are just
28:08
state -shifting capacities. So if they're activated,
28:11
how do they reverse engineer radical safety quickly
28:14
using very simple techniques? Training in trance
28:19
states. and self hypnosis and that's where it
28:23
really lands in the body because I don't believe
28:26
that you can be really deep in trance without
28:29
being fully embodied and having a real material
28:33
sense of the depth of beingness. Okay, we narrow,
28:38
we go down in as it were, whereas when we meditate
28:41
we're more... open, out monitoring and aware,
28:44
right? It feels to me very different. But there's
28:47
something about that deep sense of homecoming.
28:49
And this is where the view of the unconscious
28:51
comes in. This benign knowingness, this kind
28:56
of incredible intelligence of our own system,
28:59
that when we can attune to that, we're attuning,
29:02
I believe, to our material intelligence in the
29:05
body. And so then coming into inter receptive
29:10
awareness, like sensing, what's going on in the
29:13
body, but simultaneously sensing extraceptively
29:17
so that you're aware of what's around you too,
29:19
which opens the field to intuition. And then
29:22
you've got this kind of sense of communication
29:24
between embodied prompts and what we're experiencing
29:29
in the world. And then finally, very embodiment
29:32
centered spirituality, which is really all about
29:36
the fact that spiritual awakening, certainly
29:39
as I've experienced it, is thoroughly cellular.
29:43
It's, you know, I had a full Kundalini awakening
29:45
when I was 30. If you have that, you can't really
29:48
mistake it for anything other than in your body,
29:51
right? Right. It's just so thoroughly embodied.
29:54
So all those layers, I think the invitation at
29:57
the heart of all of them is be an earthling.
30:00
through and through, know yourself as a human
30:03
critter, a creature, but know that in that you
30:06
are also radically spiritually alive. And I think
30:11
that when we die, our physiology drops away,
30:15
but there's a materiality of a different kind
30:17
that is left, which we could call soul, right?
30:22
Yes. So I One absolutely. So there's a couple
30:26
points. So like, so first of all, I want to kind
30:28
of like go back to, you know, self love, right?
30:33
Because so many of us look for love outside of
30:36
ourselves. Yeah. And so to train ourselves to
30:40
look for it within and bring it within. And honestly,
30:43
I'm going to have to air this at the end of the
30:45
month because This whole month is all about actions
30:50
of self -love for me on my social media stuff.
30:53
So I just bumped you up to be able to air this
30:57
at the end of September, but just because of
30:59
the theme of the month and then just the conversation
31:02
that we're having, it just kind of blends very
31:04
well with that. But yeah, so many of us look
31:07
for that outside of ourselves versus finding
31:11
it within our own, I want to say our own system.
31:16
Yeah, absolutely. While recognizing that our
31:20
very system isn't just one thing. Like I have
31:23
trillions, you do. We all have trillions of gut
31:26
microbiota that produce 90 % of our serotonin.
31:29
These are our kin, right? They're working on
31:32
our behalf. There's a relationality that's intrinsic.
31:35
to who we are, and we can think of that as love.
31:37
I mean, I think love is the ultimate reality,
31:40
right? My experience of life is that whatever
31:43
you want to call God, I mean, the Bible says
31:45
God is love, and those who live in love live
31:48
in God. To me, love is the ultimate ontological
31:52
reality. It's the ground of everything, right?
31:56
So that, what you're driving at, I think, is
31:59
so important because it's that self, that auto
32:03
-folding relational that says I don't rely on
32:07
anyone else in order to feel this lovingness
32:10
but of course we learn it relationally from the
32:12
very beginning of our lives. We have to, we're
32:16
an open nervous system when we're born, we need
32:19
co -regulation, we need care, you know we're
32:21
very dependent as humans and so there is an intrinsic
32:25
relationality that's core to who and what we
32:28
are. So self -love to me is a form of relationality
32:33
but I think what you're driving at is so important
32:35
because we can become so externally oriented
32:39
that if we don't have that inner sense of groundedness
32:44
in a gentle self -relating that really knows
32:49
how to love ourselves in myriads of ways. like
32:53
it might be just taking a walk, it might be stopping
32:56
to breathe, it might be eating healthily, it
32:59
might be speaking loving thoughts to myself when
33:02
I make a mistake saying okay honey that's okay
33:05
you're learning, do you know what I mean? There
33:06
are millions of ways that we can practice that
33:09
self -love but they're all relational even though
33:14
I absolutely agree with you that the danger is
33:17
that we rely on other people solely for our So
33:23
if I can't, if for example I need a relationship
33:28
in order to feel like a whole human being, I'm
33:31
giving so much of my power to a partner. I need
33:35
to know that I am a complete self -loving being
33:40
who finds another complete self -loving being
33:43
and that together we practice radical relationality
33:46
that is a love of a very freeing evolution centered
33:50
in sense of personal evolution and growth, inner
33:54
growth, kind. That's a very different proposition,
33:57
isn't it, from needing someone in my life, or
34:01
I don't feel I've got value. So it's nuanced,
34:04
I think. Yeah, I guess and because how many of
34:08
us end up in Unhealthy relationships that don't
34:14
have the support for one another that's truly
34:16
needed Just because someone felt that they needed
34:19
to feel love or they needed To have this acceptance
34:23
from this other person to be whole. Yeah Yeah,
34:27
and and that's that's often where we go in relationship,
34:32
our wounds are drawn to each other. And in a
34:35
good relationship, we can heal become less wounded.
34:39
And either we evolve together or we outgrow each
34:42
other. You know, I mean, how many clients have
34:45
you known and I've certainly known and I've done
34:47
it in my own life where I had an unconscious
34:49
wound drew me to someone that was like a mirror
34:52
to that wound. And then as I work therapeutically
34:55
and I healed the wound, I suddenly found that
34:58
the relationship wasn't evolving with that shift
35:01
and that we both kind of realized, OK, I think
35:04
we've reached the end of the road with this particular
35:07
thing. And that's kind of I feel that the best
35:11
relationships are truly liberating, healing relationships
35:14
that again invite us to come home to who we truly
35:18
are. Yeah, absolutely I love the way you put
35:22
that to like coming home to who we truly are
35:25
I also love like when you mentioned earlier Like
35:29
and and I say this similar I I say the same thing
35:33
but just in a different way like Being used like
35:37
being fully human You know, so being in your
35:40
spiritual awakening in your gifts, but also being
35:42
very human at the same time, because that was
35:45
why we're here for that combined experience,
35:49
not just one of these. Yeah, absolutely. I think
35:53
that's the most beautiful invitation of all,
35:56
isn't it? To evolve at all the different levels
35:59
as fully as possible. I mean, I don't know about
36:02
you, Summer, but you know, I've been kind of
36:06
oriented. to spirituality since I was a child.
36:11
And my ambition, my main ambition now as a being,
36:17
and I'm sure I fail in it plenty, is to walk
36:20
through the world as a kind of field of lovingness
36:24
that isn't necessarily obvious. Like I'm not
36:27
going to go around, you know, wearing robes and
36:30
yeah, I'm such a spiritual, that's not, but the
36:34
kind of lovingness that lets people come up for
36:37
air should they wish to that they feel seen or
36:41
held or heard or it can even be a joke like it
36:44
just a moment in which something lightens and
36:48
opens and becomes receptive. So there's that.
36:51
And the other thing I think, you know, for me
36:53
personally, and I don't know how you feel, but
36:56
I'd like if I ever have the privilege of a deathbed
36:58
rather than some other way of dying. If I had
37:01
the privilege of a deathbed, I would love to
37:03
be able to rest in that, I know I'd rest in the
37:08
spiritual energies, that's not the issue, but
37:09
I'd like to rest in the knowledge that I got
37:12
as evolved as I could down as many lines of human
37:16
development as I could in this lifetime, that
37:19
I'd gone as far as I could, you know, philosophically,
37:22
artistically, physically, emotionally, that to
37:25
have the fullest range of like human experiences
37:29
and to to grow in those, that would be my aspiration.
37:33
Whether I'll achieve it or not is a whole other
37:35
question. But so many that are along their spiritual
37:45
journey now kind of, I mean, I could be mis -spoken
37:47
in this, but I kind of feel that those that are
37:49
fairly early in their spiritual journey all want
37:52
to live up in the air with it. In other words,
37:55
you want to live in that high disconnected space.
37:59
But what I have found is that the more you're
38:02
connected to your physical being and more you're
38:05
connected to the reality of the space that you're
38:09
in, the more fully embodiment you have of your
38:14
spiritual gifts and your spirituality. Totally.
38:17
I absolutely 100 % agree with that. I think being
38:21
ungrounded or even seeking to transcend your
38:24
embodied life is a kind of escapist dynamic that
38:31
we see in a lot of spiritual teaching. It's all
38:33
about transcendent and all that. I just feel
38:37
that it's a mistake because the most powerful
38:42
journey is incarnational. All the great mystics,
38:47
including some of the Indian masters who had
38:50
amazing enlightenment experiences had to re -enter
38:53
embodied life. And it's best if you never leave
38:57
it to start with. It's best if you never go to
39:00
that point and then have to return. It's best
39:02
if you just recognize I am a thoroughly embodied
39:05
material being in which, you know, and I'm using
39:09
materiality here not as some gross kind of just
39:13
pure physiology type thing, although I think
39:16
physiology is a miracle, nor am I meaning materialism
39:20
in a scientific materialist sense or a consumer
39:22
materialist sense. I mean, just that matter is
39:25
spirit here and now. How could it be otherwise?
39:28
If there is only one and if everything is differentiated
39:32
expressions of the one, the same one that is
39:35
the one under, you know, through all appearances,
39:38
how can matter not be a spiritual matter? it
39:41
matters. It's all spiritual, right? It's all
39:44
spiritual. There is no divide. How I treat my
39:48
shower is a spiritual question. Do I trash my
39:54
things? Do I show no respect for my living environment?
39:57
Do I show no respect for those around me? Am
40:01
I cruel in the name of my spirituality? Am I
40:04
ungrounded and crazy in the name of my spirituality?
40:07
It's all kind of What you're talking about, I
40:11
feel, is mature spirituality. It's mature, it's
40:16
grounded, it's embodied, it's present, right?
40:19
You know, be here now, where? Here, nowhere else,
40:24
right? Now, not in the future, not in the past,
40:27
and being, like beingness, being thoroughly present
40:30
as a being, in the beingness. That's it. It's
40:34
that simple and that challenging. Yeah, and when
40:37
you live in the future, you live in the past,
40:40
you're putting anxiety on you, you're putting
40:43
depression on you, you're putting things that
40:48
just aren't in the present moment. And so it's
40:51
all about being in the present and fully enjoying
40:53
that. And I know when I'm not in this space,
40:56
I miss out on what's in this space. Exactly.
40:59
And what I think one of the wonderful things
41:01
is the body is always present. It's always now.
41:05
for the body. If I have a thought about the past,
41:09
the body's response is a now response. It's not
41:12
a past response. The now response may be associated
41:16
neurophysiologically to the past event and to
41:19
the past state that first arose in response to
41:22
whatever that trigger is. But it's now that I'm
41:25
experiencing it. It's always in the present moment.
41:28
So there's something beautiful about really taking
41:31
your awareness fully to your embodied presence.
41:35
And we know, for example, that three mindful
41:38
yawns followed by coming into your senses is
41:42
a wonderful way to deal with anxiety or fear.
41:47
And what's going on there? Well, we're using
41:49
a physiological mechanism that naturally happens
41:53
when we're releasing tension. We naturally go
41:55
parasympathetic. And then coming into our senses,
41:58
we're coming right to where we are now. What
42:00
am I seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting?
42:03
You're fully present. And that's the aperture.
42:07
It's always the present moment. The answer's
42:09
always now. That's where the gift is, right?
42:14
Yeah. So I have dealt with anxiety over my lifetime.
42:19
And I started doing the five, four, three, two,
42:22
one, like. five things I can see, four things
42:25
I can touch. And sometimes I would get like halfway
42:28
through that first one and have to start all
42:30
over because I could feel it kicking up, but
42:33
I would continue with that. And now it's just,
42:37
I haven't had a situation in some time, which
42:42
I'm very thankful for. But it seems like if I
42:46
get into or if I hear something that's kind of
42:49
a trigger, I'm able to immediately identify now
42:54
I'm safe. I'm not in the situation I was then.
42:58
And now I'm safe. It is OK to be here in the
43:03
now. Yeah, being able to hone that in. Mine came
43:07
from I was attacked at gunpoint back like, wow.
43:14
24 years ago. Well, you know, so I dealt with
43:18
the anxiety of that, you know, even like 20 years
43:21
later, you know, just certain situations or triggers,
43:25
right would get there. So that's when I really
43:28
started leaning into that five, four, three,
43:31
two, one, because mentally I knew this isn't
43:35
the same situation I'm safe, but I couldn't like
43:37
my body wasn't hearing that. And though I had
43:44
to do something more physical so I would do the
43:47
touch and I would literally go around and find
43:49
five things I could touch to get my body moving
43:53
versus being paralysed in that anxiety state.
43:56
Yeah, that's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
43:58
I'm just kind of thinking about where that fits
44:00
with the body's always present. I think it does
44:03
because I think what happens when those moments
44:05
come is the neuro associative trigger. takes
44:10
us back to the original kinesthetic, you know,
44:13
the felt state of the original situation and
44:16
refires it in the now. And then in the now we
44:21
get to choose to make a different association.
44:23
So over time, I guess what you're doing is over
44:27
the time. Every time that triggers, you're going,
44:29
oh, no, I'm resetting my state by doing five,
44:32
four, three, two, one. So eventually what will
44:35
happen is the trigger will come and there'll
44:37
be nothing. We'll just go, OK, I'm having that
44:40
memory. That's fine. Without. Yeah, it becomes
44:44
a memory versus a reaction. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:50
So I have a question and I don't know if you
44:54
really have any answer to this or not. So going
44:57
back to, you know, you mentioned earlier, like,
45:01
you know, someone may have like a triggering
45:04
moment from when they were an infant or like
45:06
two years old of an expression of someone's face.
45:09
And then later on in life, that same trigger
45:11
can come back up when you see it on someone else.
45:14
Right. Yeah. So I've had it's happened in three
45:19
past life hypnosis for me, where they take you
45:22
back through. um the womb entry right and each
45:28
one each time has happened three times where
45:32
i could hear um my mom at that time not i don't
45:39
know um i don't know what lifetime i don't want
45:43
to presume that so but i heard while i was in
45:47
the womb during um Taking me through a past life
45:51
regression three separate times that my mom was
45:54
contemplating Abortion Wow And so how can something
46:02
like that? Because like it is being shown to
46:05
me for whatever reason Right. So but my question
46:09
is a little bit more deeper than is I how can
46:11
something like that? Identify someone's thoughts
46:16
and behaviors in their current life, because
46:20
if it's something from the past, apparently it's
46:22
still lingering somewhere in the current life.
46:26
And then being able like, would there be a connection
46:29
to that? Hmm. I honestly don't know. My sense
46:35
of it. Yeah, my sense of it from just kind of
46:38
like the neuroscience side would be to do with
46:43
like the trigger would be the hearing of the
46:47
voice or the whatever it was that and then you
46:50
get the physiological response to that. Is that
46:54
right? So then you so then what the way I work
46:57
with clients is something called the meta pattern
46:58
and it's basically memory reconsolidation distilled
47:01
and memory reconsolidation is what they're saying
47:04
is at the heart of all successful therapeutic
47:06
change. So like if you if you if a client presented
47:10
that to me, I would get them to revisit the the
47:14
sound of the voice and get enough of the feeling
47:17
not overwhelming but enough of the kinesthetic
47:20
so that we know we're finding the right neural
47:23
correlate for the connection and then it's about
47:28
shifting state so it could be Think of a filthy
47:31
joke that makes you laugh or what's your phone
47:33
number backwards? Anything that takes them away
47:36
from this kinesthetic, right? And usually I'm
47:39
I work a lot with humor. So I'll make a little
47:41
joke. And if someone laughs, I know they've shifted.
47:44
Right. And then I'll say, how would you want
47:48
to feel instead? Now, it doesn't have to be an
47:52
opposite state. All I'm looking for is they've
47:56
got that association. So the voice saying the
47:58
words, I get these neurotransmitters and hormones
48:02
I get my physiological response I step away from
48:05
that I want any other physiological response
48:09
a preferable one so it could be I want to feel
48:12
joyously confident so you know that's when you
48:16
do all that work with when did you feel joyously
48:18
confident or can you borrow it if you've never
48:20
felt it can you borrow it I used to borrow Byron
48:23
Katie a lot so then you've got this like they
48:29
pull that state on board and you're watching
48:31
their physiology or looking for a physiological
48:34
shift that you can identify and when they've
48:37
got that 10 out of 10 they've got to really feel
48:39
it they think not of the original state but of
48:43
the voice so they're jumping they're in a powerful
48:46
new physiological state thinking of the original
48:49
trigger now what the brain is doing It's gone.
48:52
When this happens, this is this is what we do
48:55
with our body. When this happens, this is the
48:56
response. Now you're going when this happens.
48:59
Oh, I've got to choose between these two states.
49:03
You keep doing it over and over, maybe five or
49:06
six times. They break state, pump up the powerful
49:09
one, go back to the trigger. There's a moment
49:12
that comes when you say, think of the trigger.
49:15
What happens? And they'll go. Nothing. Right,
49:19
nothing's happening. At that moment, you know
49:21
that that association has collapsed. And you
49:25
know that it can never be the same again. Because
49:27
the brain's done what the brain has to do, which
49:29
is update in the light of the new information,
49:32
which is the new kinesthetic. This is, again,
49:35
where the body is so important. You have to get
49:38
the physiological shift in order to get the shift.
49:42
A good example was I was working with a client
49:44
and she was talking to me about her narcissistic
49:46
mother and her mother, we did a bit exploring
49:49
around all that psychotherapeutic type exploring
49:52
and her mother had made her eat these family
49:55
meals which were absolutely grotesque like there
49:57
would be grim energy around the table revolting
50:01
food so I said to her what was what was on the
50:04
menu? And so she said something about I don't
50:08
know it was sausages and something with cut followed
50:10
by custard It was absolutely like a school dinner,
50:13
you know Yeah, and I just burst out laughing
50:16
and so did she and then I said now think of that
50:19
and she went where did it go and What had happened
50:23
was the physiological state of laughing had been
50:26
so powerful in her The minute she thought about
50:29
the trigger it didn't take repetition because
50:32
the power was there in the physiology, right?
50:35
Right. So as to the meaning of it, how can we
50:41
know? I mean, I would hazard a guess that like
50:44
if that happened, if you had heard three times
50:47
that you were nearly aborted, I guess the work
50:50
you would be asking is like, do I belong in this
50:53
world? How do I belong in this world? How do
50:57
I feel welcome in this world? How do I make sure
50:59
that I, as a being, as summer, fully belong here
51:03
in my body, in this world? as a fully welcomed,
51:06
intended being. And of course, if you've had
51:09
three potential attempted abortions, you totally
51:12
belong in this world. Right. Yeah. Like there's
51:15
certainly something. But I will say that's interesting
51:17
because many times I felt like I just didn't
51:20
belong. I mean, many times I felt like I didn't
51:24
even belong to my family. Well, that would be
51:27
linked to that, right? Yeah. And dynamics, other
51:31
dynamics. Yeah. and maybe other dynamics around
51:34
it. But so, but you know, the fact that you are
51:37
here, given that, to me, a lovely kind of way
51:41
of understanding that is, damn, you were meant
51:43
to be here. If you survive that three times.
51:47
I better get my button gear then. I better restart
51:54
doing whatever I'm supposed to be doing. Oh,
51:57
my goodness. Honestly, I think that I'm finally
51:59
after like, you know, I don't know. So at 55,
52:04
I got laid off from a very lucrative career.
52:09
But honestly, I think I'm finally doing what
52:11
I'm supposed to be doing. Which is amazing. Yeah,
52:16
I think it's going to shift and change some still.
52:18
I feel like it's still in that shifting stage.
52:22
But I think it's still very much more grounded.
52:25
And I have a better I'm not gonna say knowledge,
52:30
but I got a better feeling that it's where it's
52:33
supposed to be. Yeah, that's beautiful Really?
52:37
Yeah, it takes time to I don't know. I Sometimes
52:41
I'm like man. I wish I'd figure this out like
52:42
20 years ago, but you know, I wasn't ready then
52:46
Hmm. And also we learn so much on on the route,
52:49
right? I mean, all my life I've thought, why
52:52
am I doing, you know, why have I done this, this
52:54
and this and this? My CV used to look like a
52:56
Jackson Pollock painting. Literally, it was just
52:58
all over the place. And, you know, now, finally,
53:02
I'm 67, I'm starting to see how it's coming together
53:06
for the first time, with more clarity. I feel
53:10
like there's a little clarity that's missing
53:12
for me, but I'm on the track. And it's just that
53:15
feeling of, I guess, I feel like the times we
53:19
live in demand maturity. They demand grounded,
53:23
mature energy. And I kind of feel that women
53:26
in particular, we're called to be the kind of
53:32
wise ones who stand in our strength and say,
53:38
look, all this kind of battle of the sexist nonsense
53:42
needs to go away. We all need to live together
53:44
cooperatively. We have to care for each other.
53:47
We have to care for the planet. I mean, goodness
53:49
knows if we don't do it now, when are we going
53:51
to do it? Really? Given where we are at this
53:55
particular point of human history, these epochal
53:58
shifts, the political divides and all the rest
54:00
of it crying out for people who are grounded,
54:04
mature. able to hold complexity, able to see
54:08
nuance, able to think across difference, able
54:10
to think integratively, and able to stand in
54:13
their ground of being when people around them
54:16
maybe are ungrounded, reactive, whatever. I feel
54:22
like our whole government leadership is extremely
54:26
ungrounded at this point. Oh, absolutely mental,
54:30
completely, yeah, very ungrounded. There's a
54:33
lot we could a lot we could say about it. But
54:37
one thing it certainly isn't is it's not grounded
54:41
in loving compassion. It's not grounded in a
54:45
sense of homely coexistence with other human
54:50
beings and animals and ecosystems. It's not coming
54:53
from that place. It's coming from a place of
54:56
top -down control, manipulation, predatory practices.
55:02
divisiveness, expulsiveness, all that. None of
55:05
that is going to take us anywhere good. It never
55:08
could. It never would. We've been called to something
55:11
far deeper. And so it's always exciting to me
55:14
when I meet people like you, Summer, because,
55:17
you know, there are people in the world who are
55:19
actually really trying to ground an authentic
55:23
practice and to show up for these times in a
55:26
way that says, okay, Everybody, let's make it
55:30
safe for everyone. Let's get through this mess.
55:33
I mean, goodness knows that the challenges are
55:35
complex. We're going to need our best intelligence
55:38
to navigate all that's coming down the track
55:40
right now. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.
55:47
So my mind just went like a million different
55:49
directions on that. So we're going to like pull
55:50
this in. So this has been an amazing conversation.
55:55
I absolutely loved having you on. I would like
55:58
to ask if there's one final thought that you
56:02
feel that our audience needs to hear before we
56:05
close for the day. I think I'd want to say that
56:10
you're so much more than you know. You're so
56:15
much richer as a being perhaps than you know,
56:20
as in perhaps than you know, as in you are definitely
56:23
a richer being than perhaps you know. Some people
56:28
already know, right? I don't want to make assumptions.
56:31
But coming home to the incredible intelligence
56:34
of our embodied creatureliness in all its grounded
56:40
connection and relationality and practicing self
56:44
-love, as a ground from which to reach out and
56:47
love others. It doesn't stop with us. It's not
56:49
egoic. It's not selfish. It's not self -indulgent.
56:52
We have to do the deep work. We have to work
56:54
on our ethics. We have to look at our shadow.
56:57
We can do it lovingly. That kind of homecoming
57:02
would be the greatest invitation. Yeah, you're
57:08
so much more than you know and you know so much
57:10
more than you know, you know because unconsciously
57:13
you know a lot more than you cognitively know
57:16
and we just Don't realize how much we actually
57:20
know we know so much and so little and it's beautiful
57:24
Absolutely. That was beautiful. Thank you so
57:27
much for being here and I hope to have you back
57:31
again. Well, thank you very much for having me
57:33
somewhere I come any time it's like to meet you
57:36
And I hope the conversation helps someone somewhere.
57:41
I am sure. Well, it helped me. It helped me tremendously,
57:44
believe it or not. Like it actually did help
57:46
me a lot. I have a ton of notes here for me to
57:48
take. It was really lovely to meet you and absolutely
57:52
lovely to talk with you. Thank you very much
57:55
for having me. Thank you. All right, guys, we'll
57:58
see you next time on Just Be True, Soled podcast
58:00
and you all have an amazing day. Hi there, I'm
58:04
Summer. I'm here to help you navigate the journey
58:07
of self -trust and finding your authentic self.
58:11
Every episode is a step toward knowing yourself
58:14
a little better. Thanks for spending this time
58:16
with me. If something in today's episode landed,
58:22
sit with it. You don't have to figure it all
58:25
out right now. Just notice what's stirred. Subscribe
58:29
so you don't miss what's coming and share this
58:31
episode with someone who needs to hear it today.
58:37
Until next time, remember, you already know.
58:41
This is how you learn to trust it.