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142: Codependency: How to Stop Overgiving Without Shutting People Out · The Everyday Awesome Project

• 0:27
  Polly Mertens: Hey, superstars.
• 0:28
  Polly Mertens: Paula here.
• 0:30
  Samantha Pruitt: And Sam Pruitt.
• 0:31
  Samantha Pruitt: What's up, beautiful humans?
• 0:33
  Samantha Pruitt: Good morning.
• 0:34
  Samantha Pruitt: Hey, you know what?
• 0:35
  Samantha Pruitt: We rarely tape in the morning.
• 0:37
  Samantha Pruitt: I need more coffee.
• 0:40
  Polly Mertens: And not that anybody would notice what time of day we tape, but uh, you're ready.
• 0:43
  Polly Mertens: This is a little early for us.
• 0:45
  Polly Mertens: I love it.
• 0:45
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 0:46
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, we're usually like uh midday jammers.
• 0:49
  Polly Mertens: Mm-hmm.
• 0:49
  Polly Mertens: Mm-hmm.
• 0:49
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, we're just gonna knock this one out and we'll see how how the energy is from both of us.
• 0:53
  Polly Mertens: I just got out of the gym.
• 0:54
  Polly Mertens: You're probably up and early as well.
• 0:56
  Samantha Pruitt: And I actually slept in.
• 0:58
  Samantha Pruitt: That's why I'm still drinking coffee.
• 0:59
  Samantha Pruitt: I'll go to the gym after this and then get on with the day, but it's all good.
• 1:04
  Polly Mertens: Get a cranking, get a cranking.
• 1:05
  Polly Mertens: Well, thank you for joining us today, guys.
• 1:07
  Polly Mertens: We are talking about a fun topic that I've discovered.
• 1:10
  Polly Mertens: I need to be talking about codependency.
• 1:13
  Polly Mertens: I was like, huh, hadn't really been on my radar.
• 1:18
  Polly Mertens: And as we started preparing for this, just because we were unpacking some things like behaviors that I was doing and I was seeing, and like running up to this resistance in a relationship.
• 1:28
  Polly Mertens: And I was like, what's you know, it's like look like shining a spotlight on my behavior, you know.
• 1:32
  Polly Mertens: I mean, you and I, I don't know about you, but I'll speak for myself anyways, constantly under the petri dish.
• 1:37
  Polly Mertens: Like when I notice, let's say, dysfunction or resistance or stuff's just not working right.
• 1:43
  Polly Mertens: I'm like, why what's going on?
• 1:44
  Polly Mertens: Hold up, right?
• 1:45
  Polly Mertens: And then just get more conscious about it, take a look at it.
• 1:48
  Polly Mertens: And you've helped me with that with this one.
• 1:50
  Samantha Pruitt: So coded the Well, you know how this came on my radar recently.
• 1:54
  Samantha Pruitt: I came back from being a nature woman in the woods, right, by myself for 20 days.
• 2:01
  Samantha Pruitt: And as part of my recalibration, one of the things, one of the many layers of things that evolved for me was a different way of relating to my friends and family, my loved ones, and even actually honestly, my co-workers and clients.
• 2:18
  Samantha Pruitt: So relationship, we'll just call it relationship.
• 2:23
  Polly Mertens: Who you're being in the world.
• 2:24
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 2:24
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah.
• 2:25
  Samantha Pruitt: You know, relationship, interpersonal relationships are complicated.
• 2:29
  Samantha Pruitt: Like that is shit, is work.
• 2:31
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, dude.
• 2:32
  Samantha Pruitt: Like, hello.
• 2:33
  Samantha Pruitt: And trying last year and a couple of years, but last year, like was trying in many ways because there were so many relationships and so many things going on and a lot of needs from others.
• 2:46
  Samantha Pruitt: And so in that, I was repeatedly banging my head or bumping myself into the wall around these relationships and how to navigate them with care and compassion and support and be a resource and all the things I want to be a compassionate, loving person in the world.
• 3:06
  Samantha Pruitt: I love these people.
• 3:07
  Samantha Pruitt: I'm invested in their success, right?
• 3:08
  Samantha Pruitt: But then I could repeatedly find myself overly invested, and then all of a sudden going, fuck this, like exhausted from that need or demand or amount of contact or whatever it was, you know?
• 3:24
  Samantha Pruitt: And so it was me having an unpacking myself of like, how can I do these things differently?
• 3:31
  Samantha Pruitt: Studying Buddhism, of course, that's part of it, but then also just having great awareness and wanting to evolve through it.
• 3:39
  Samantha Pruitt: So I came out the other side, and one of the things I shared with you was like, I'm just relating to people differently.
• 3:45
  Samantha Pruitt: Like, this is wild.
• 3:47
  Samantha Pruitt: And then having that awareness and intention and really working that muscle, I started really kind of seeing it pop up everywhere.
• 3:57
  Samantha Pruitt: Because you know, once you awaken a new part of yourself to that and you're exercising that muscle on a regular basis, you're like, oh, well, that's interesting.
• 4:07
  Samantha Pruitt: You know, you start to become more aware and observant.
• 4:09
  Samantha Pruitt: So in that, you and I unfolded a lot of conversations about a lot of things, not just ourselves, but you know, people around us, and how to help other people work through it too and become more free.
• 4:23
  Samantha Pruitt: You know, there's a kept using the word liberation, you know, I felt this openness when I came back, and I still feel it, a sense of freedom around whatever's going on around me with all the beautiful humans.
• 4:36
  Samantha Pruitt: So showing up differently.
• 4:38
  Polly Mertens: For sure.
• 4:39
  Polly Mertens: And you were quick to unpack this.
• 4:41
  Polly Mertens: Like I remember it was it wasn't like an on-off switch, but definitely when you came back, it was clear who you were being and who you were not being, and what you were saying no to, you know, was like hard, not hard lines, but like much more clear in your own self.
• 4:58
  Polly Mertens: Like, oh, that I don't need to be like you were saying, like so invested, like as you were talking about codependency.
• 5:04
  Polly Mertens: I was sorry, I was trying the metaphor was trying to come of like it's almost like chains between, you know, like like they're like hooked together like velcro or locked together or something, you know, there's like some enmeshment, if you will, that happens in the codependent relationship, right?
• 5:22
  Polly Mertens: And but you know, standing alone on your own two feet and being like two independent souls, humans, energy beings, whatever, instead of this enmeshment or overly giving or overly in the other person's space, whatever.
• 5:36
  Samantha Pruitt: So yeah, yeah, they call it entanglement.
• 5:38
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, it's like there is a weaving that people do, and we'll get into why this happens and how it happens, and how people can possibly consider if this might be going on with them.
• 5:52
  Samantha Pruitt: Uh my personal opinion, and I said this to you before, is we're all doing it on varying degrees of levels and intensities.
• 6:01
  Samantha Pruitt: And then over time, depending on relationships, they have phases and whatever.
• 6:04
  Samantha Pruitt: So I do think a general awareness for all people would be helpful, right?
• 6:10
  Samantha Pruitt: And we'll give them a lot to consider today as we discuss it.
• 6:14
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, so we'll go over healthy and unhealthy attachment, you know.
• 6:17
  Polly Mertens: And this is a little bit of the root when we've studied this, is like, well, you know, everything seems to come from childhood.
• 6:23
  Polly Mertens: And so the doesn't it though, but doesn't it?
• 6:26
  Polly Mertens: And mine, it still seems to be playing out in adulthood.
• 6:30
  Polly Mertens: So I'm like, all right, it was rude.
• 6:32
  Polly Mertens: Right, but I'm still doing it.
• 6:35
  Polly Mertens: So this episode is definitely for Polly right now, you know, and we'll go along the journey.
• 6:41
  Polly Mertens: And there might be some therapy from Sam or some coaching from Sam as we do.
• 6:45
  Polly Mertens: So, but I'm all good, I'm all up for it.
• 6:47
  Polly Mertens: So, yeah, we'll talk about unhealthy and then like really want to help you guys if you know, and what and one of the things I want to say is you could have very healthy relationships, healthy boundaries, healthy attachment, you might say, with quite a few people, and then some unhealthy with some others for whatever reason, right?
• 7:05
  Polly Mertens: So we're not saying like you're 100% in all of your relationships, you have to be noticing all the unhealthiness that you know is creating codependency.
• 7:14
  Polly Mertens: You might be on that spectrum.
• 7:15
  Polly Mertens: Like I find that I'm a little bit more on that spectrum than healthy boundaries, if you will, and then healthy attachment.
• 7:23
  Polly Mertens: So whether it's one or two relationships that as you listen to this, like listen for where am I maybe overgiving or you know, some things that we talk about, and just see, see if you want to restructure that, like you did.
• 7:35
  Polly Mertens: You're like snap, snap, snapped out of it.
• 7:37
  Polly Mertens: So, all right.
• 7:38
  Polly Mertens: Well, what I think we should start with.
• 7:40
  Polly Mertens: You found some wonderful definitions as well.
• 7:42
  Polly Mertens: Love the root.
• 7:43
  Polly Mertens: So tell us about attachment or yeah, attachment and codependency.
• 7:48
  Samantha Pruitt: Let's do it.
• 7:50
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, let's start with attachment.
• 7:51
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, and this is a definition of attachment a deep emotional bond system rooted in evolutionary biology and early caregiving.
• 8:03
  Samantha Pruitt: It dictates how your nervous system responds to threat, closeness, and separation.
• 8:13
  Samantha Pruitt: Attachment, a deep emotional bond system.
• 8:21
  Samantha Pruitt: I love that they say system, okay, because it is complex.
• 8:24
  Samantha Pruitt: A deep emotional bond system rooted in evolutionary biology and early caregiving.
• 8:33
  Samantha Pruitt: It dictates how your nervous system, which in turn affects everything, FYI people.
• 8:39
  Samantha Pruitt: If you haven't followed the rest of our podcasts, it dictates how your nervous system responds to threat, closeness, and separation.
• 8:47
  Samantha Pruitt: This is really primal shit, dude.
• 8:51
  Samantha Pruitt: That's why it's we all got it.
• 8:54
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, nobody's avoiding this.
• 8:55
  Samantha Pruitt: Sorry.
• 8:56
  Polly Mertens: Two words in that speak, you know, biology and evolutionary, right?
• 8:59
  Polly Mertens: Like that's got to tell you there's some you know, mammon-level brain action going on here.
• 9:04
  Polly Mertens: And when you said systems, what I started to hear was, you know, we're not just talking about the mental.
• 9:09
  Samantha Pruitt: Right.
• 9:10
  Polly Mertens: Because there's so many systems in the body, and and it's not just like your thoughts are making you attach, right?
• 9:17
  Polly Mertens: It's like, you know, how the body is, you know, needing closeness, or how does the body respond when it gets rejected?
• 9:23
  Polly Mertens: I mean, like, we know how that somatically feels kinesthetic in our body.
• 9:26
  Polly Mertens: So okay.
• 9:27
  Samantha Pruitt: And that's why we generally can't think our way out of this shit, right?
• 9:31
  Samantha Pruitt: Like, not that I'm opposed to talk therapy.
• 9:33
  Samantha Pruitt: Obviously, I am a fan of therapy and all kinds of things, but like there's it's more complex than that.
• 9:38
  Samantha Pruitt: 100%.
• 9:39
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:40
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, so codependency.
• 9:43
  Samantha Pruitt: Another sexy one.
• 9:47
  Polly Mertens: And this one, if okay, just notice in your body how hearing this makes you feel yeah.
• 9:53
  Samantha Pruitt: Watch how your nervous system responds to this one.
• 9:57
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, codependency, a learned set of survival behaviors where your identity, self-esteem, and emotional state depend heavily on the approval, the needs or the crisis of another person.
• 10:17
  Samantha Pruitt: Again, again codependency, a learned set, okay?
• 10:23
  Samantha Pruitt: A learned set, which means it can be unlearned, a learned set of survival behaviors.
• 10:29
  Samantha Pruitt: Again, primal shit here.
• 10:31
  Samantha Pruitt: A learned set of survival behaviors where your identity, your self-esteem, and your emotional state depend heavily on the approval, the needs or the crisis of another person.
• 10:49
  Samantha Pruitt: Oh God.
• 10:51
  Polly Mertens: Anyone feeling that in very survival stuff, yeah, survival pattern.
• 11:02
  Samantha Pruitt: It's like wild.
• 11:03
  Polly Mertens: You know, and when I was listening to some other pods and stuff, and people talking, you know, experts talking about codependency, and it's like, you know, it's it's you know, in various forms and whatever, but it's like that state of the little you, little, and I'll speak for myself, but like little me at some point feeling some sense of abandoned or would be abandoned, or inability to attach.
• 11:27
  Polly Mertens: So there's a threat of aloneness, safety, safety, yeah, safety, right?
• 11:33
  Polly Mertens: And so what do you do?
• 11:34
  Polly Mertens: You start to go, and I think it I I don't, you know, as I'm talking out loud, like I'm thinking from my first person perspective, but like the relationship with my mom is what I think of in this scenario where I think I've learned a lot of this is you know, like this person, their chaos, their needs, like you like you were saying, like this I need to attach, right?
• 11:56
  Polly Mertens: And so whatever's going on over there, like we gotta make it okay, right?
• 12:01
  Polly Mertens: And responding to that to survive this, like if mother rejects you, like what happens to the little creature?
• 12:08
  Samantha Pruitt: Right, yeah, die.
• 12:10
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:12
  Polly Mertens: Whether in whether conscious or subconscious, right?
• 12:14
  Polly Mertens: Million brain level shits going on in that little me version is like, whoa, what what how do I how do I stay in your orbit?
• 12:22
  Polly Mertens: How do I stay on your good side?
• 12:24
  Polly Mertens: How do I, you know, whatever, so that you take care of me, right?
• 12:27
  Samantha Pruitt: And the death can be physical or it could literally be an emotional or a spiritual death, right?
• 12:32
  Samantha Pruitt: Depending on how you perceive the human experience, but all of those things are real, right?
• 12:38
  Samantha Pruitt: And you're the little person trying to figure this out, and it's oh man, it's so complex.
• 12:45
  Samantha Pruitt: And then we take that really lovely programming and all the complexities of it, right?
• 12:53
  Samantha Pruitt: At whatever level we inherited all these things, and then we move them on to other people.
• 12:58
  Samantha Pruitt: Now I gotta do that with my spouse.
• 13:01
  Samantha Pruitt: Now I gotta do that with my boss.
• 13:02
  Samantha Pruitt: Now I should do that with my friends, now I gotta do that with my children, right?
• 13:07
  Samantha Pruitt: Because it's this learned programming, this behavioral programming that's so deep and like we said, primal.
• 13:13
  Samantha Pruitt: And so it's just gonna come wherever we go, there it will go.
• 13:19
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, it's it's the lenses through which we see relationship, right?
• 13:23
  Polly Mertens: Like a need to feel loved, you know, and some of what we were talking about earlier, and I'm I'm sure there's great, you know, experts in how they speak it, but what I was hearing from them was often like our inherent self-worth is tied to the acceptance, this relationship going well, the needs of the others, am I valuable enough to them?
• 13:41
  Polly Mertens: Can I solve their problems?
• 13:42
  Polly Mertens: Can I control or manage their world so that I'm okay?
• 13:46
  Polly Mertens: Right.
• 13:48
  Polly Mertens: It's crazy.
• 13:49
  Samantha Pruitt: And other things show up.
• 13:50
  Samantha Pruitt: It's like if they're in pain, I'm in pain.
• 13:52
  Samantha Pruitt: You know, if they don't have their needs met, I don't have my needs met.
• 13:56
  Samantha Pruitt: It's just all of this stuff.
• 13:58
  Polly Mertens: That enmeshment and immersion, you know, one was one definition I was seeing something about like when the bond or the relationship is so enmeshed, it's like the person is giving in order to, and they're just like it the overgiving shows up out of experience of just like a probably erasing the anxiety that that like I feel or whatever, and the need to know that everything's gonna be okay.
• 14:23
  Polly Mertens: Like, if you're okay, then I'm okay.
• 14:24
  Polly Mertens: Like over caretaking for you.
• 14:27
  Polly Mertens: And when you're not okay, like I'm doing something wrong, right?
• 14:30
  Polly Mertens: Something's wrong with me because you're not okay.
• 14:33
  Samantha Pruitt: It can show up as a fear-based feeling, an anxiety-based feeling, like you just mentioned.
• 14:39
  Samantha Pruitt: Also, just a deep sense of like value and worth.
• 14:44
  Samantha Pruitt: Am I valuable?
• 14:46
  Samantha Pruitt: Am I being perceived as value, you know, to this person in this relationship?
• 14:51
  Samantha Pruitt: Am I even being seen and appreciated?
• 14:54
  Samantha Pruitt: Right.
• 14:55
  Samantha Pruitt: So that needing, it has so many layers to it, right?
• 14:59
  Samantha Pruitt: Like I need to feel needed and therefore I will be valuable.
• 15:03
  Samantha Pruitt: Like all of those things that are misconceptions, of course, right?
• 15:07
  Samantha Pruitt: Like you're valuable, just the fact that you're alive and breathing and you exist.
• 15:11
  Samantha Pruitt: You don't need to do any damn thing, but we're just taught to do these behaviors because of that constant need for that feedback loop, whichever one we're sort of caught in.
• 15:22
  Polly Mertens: And I think two of the most common traits that I heard spoken from other therapists and experts on this is people pleasing and overgiving.
• 15:31
  Polly Mertens: So if there's any relationship as you're looking and listening to us right now, and you're like, well, I don't, I don't really have that O over here, you know, might be at work, you know, like a work dynamic or totally.
• 15:45
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, work is really common.
• 15:47
  Samantha Pruitt: I think not to be sexist, but generally you'll see men expressing more in those ways, and you tend to see a female person possibly more expressing in the ways of the family's needs or the children or the spouse's needs, right?
• 15:59
  Samantha Pruitt: Like we're all having relationships all the time.
• 16:03
  Samantha Pruitt: And so you can project that shit wherever you want.
• 16:08
  Samantha Pruitt: You know, it's almost like I just got those clingy balls, you know, where it's the velcro and the ball sticks to it.
• 16:14
  Samantha Pruitt: Oh, I found you today.
• 16:17
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:17
  Polly Mertens: So let's create some clarity of like unhealthy attachment, right?
• 16:22
  Polly Mertens: So, like inside of codependence or inside of attachment.
• 16:25
  Polly Mertens: Um so there's we did another pod if you want to listen to that, was like attachment, non-attachment, and detachment.
• 16:30
  Polly Mertens: So we're gonna talk about attachment and healthy and unhealthy.
• 16:34
  Polly Mertens: So yeah, let's go into it.
• 16:39
  Samantha Pruitt: What does it look like?
• 16:41
  Polly Mertens: So I would say, you know, we we talked about this like overgiving and people pleasing.
• 16:47
  Polly Mertens: Like, I'm okay.
• 16:47
  Polly Mertens: I'm only okay if you're okay.
• 16:49
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, like and you know, one of the things I want to make this first person for me is what I I was sharing this with you earlier.
• 16:56
  Polly Mertens: It's like I start like as a coach, you know, who's derived, like where does coach come from?
• 17:02
  Polly Mertens: Probably from lots of years of having someone that needed some fixing or help, right?
• 17:08
  Polly Mertens: Like I feel this, you know, I'm trained in it, if you will, from a lifetime of exposure to neediness, if you will, or fixing some coming to me with problems, if you will.
• 17:19
  Polly Mertens: And so it's like, how can I make you okay?
• 17:22
  Polly Mertens: How can, you know, like your oh your not okayness is either upsetting to me or is imbalancing me, or I'm taking responsibility to fix it, right?
• 17:32
  Polly Mertens: And I can tell you years, decades, decades that I that I had this pattern.
• 17:36
  Polly Mertens: And well, still, you know, like I'm just like this is kind of new for me, just to notice how prevalent it is, right?
• 17:44
  Polly Mertens: So being overly concerned and attached to that person's well-being.
• 17:50
  Polly Mertens: And I and I looked at it, the lens through like the coaching lens, I would say, is oh, I don't like to see people suffering, right?
• 17:56
  Polly Mertens: Like, of course, like that sounds all noble and you know exactly.
• 18:01
  Samantha Pruitt: Isn't it interesting how we do elevate that?
• 18:04
  Samantha Pruitt: Oh, you are so compassionate, you are so giving, you are so altruistic, you are so la la la la, right?
• 18:11
  Samantha Pruitt: So as a society, we put that really on a pedestal, like it's a badge of honor, and then we walk around and we wear that and we feel like we have to keep delivering that over and over and over.
• 18:22
  Samantha Pruitt: And of course, what we're talking about today is the tricky part of being a compassionate human and being in close connection and of service in ways that are helpful, but not at the cost of us or in an unhealthy pattern, right?
• 18:40
  Samantha Pruitt: There we're not saying don't be of service to people and don't be helpful and compassionate.
• 18:45
  Samantha Pruitt: We are those people.
• 18:47
  Samantha Pruitt: I mean, hello, it's literally our entire life's work, it's built around that, right?
• 18:51
  Samantha Pruitt: But how can you do that and still maintain the self and the integrity of the self without that entanglement?
• 18:58
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, so as you were saying, I was like, wow, I just justified a survival behavior that's keeping that's keeping me stuck.
• 19:05
  Polly Mertens: Like, oh, I'm justifying it as you know, better, you know, it's so noble.
• 19:09
  Polly Mertens: I want to help and get people out of suffering.
• 19:11
  Polly Mertens: It's like, what the hell?
• 19:12
  Polly Mertens: That's my survival basic need going on.
• 19:15
  Samantha Pruitt: I see a lot of religions based in that behavior.
• 19:20
  Polly Mertens: For sure, for sure.
• 19:21
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 19:22
  Samantha Pruitt: So, you know, it's one way.
• 19:25
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, so like how that looks as a coach.
• 19:27
  Polly Mertens: So you might have this in your managerial style, you know, like like coaching.
• 19:31
  Polly Mertens: So it's like like I'm more invested in the results than they are, right?
• 19:35
  Polly Mertens: Like I have a particular client, and we're talking now about the shift in her uh leadership style, right?
• 19:40
  Polly Mertens: Because she has this like rescuer thing.
• 19:42
  Polly Mertens: It's like the team is is not getting everything done, just she like goes and gets it all done, you know.
• 19:48
  Polly Mertens: And it's like, well, she sweeps the floor with all the insufficiencies of her team or something like that, you know, and and it it's like, and in some ways it's it has this dual sword in that relationship.
• 19:59
  Polly Mertens: We won't go too much into it, but there's like this codependent, like I keep you in neediness so that you don't ever like rise to the occasion.
• 20:07
  Polly Mertens: I don't see you as a leader and totally capable, and just hold you to like you got this, and maybe show you, you know, like there might be some training here and there, but it's not the rescuing, that's not a leader's job, that's nobody's job, right?
• 20:20
  Samantha Pruitt: We it's not a parent's job either.
• 20:22
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, you see this a lot in parenting, and I have even grandkids, grandparenting, right?
• 20:27
  Samantha Pruitt: So you have this want to have them not suffer, of course, but also to be successful.
• 20:35
  Samantha Pruitt: Like, hey, I want you to crush all things.
• 20:37
  Samantha Pruitt: I want you to be healthy and get a good education and go out and earn a nice living and blah, blah, blah, right?
• 20:41
  Samantha Pruitt: So we take our kids and we get this this shit.
• 20:45
  Samantha Pruitt: I mean, what in the hell's Bells is going?
• 20:47
  Samantha Pruitt: Like, I've never seen it in the year 2026.
• 20:50
  Samantha Pruitt: It's up pretty off the rails.
• 20:52
  Samantha Pruitt: And I think the pandemic sort of was a catalyst for you know, people bringing their kids in closer, their family members in closer and creating more codependency just based on the tightness of the space and the intensity of the outside world coming at us.
• 21:06
  Samantha Pruitt: You know, we were all like in defense of this thing that was going to kill us all and blah, blah, blah, whatever, you know.
• 21:11
  Samantha Pruitt: So we need to get back out into the real world and open up space for our young people in our lives, no matter who they are to us, to forge their own path and gain independence and skill set.
• 21:27
  Samantha Pruitt: So, yeah, this does happen in the workspace a lot, but boy, in the home space, dang girl.
• 21:33
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay.
• 21:34
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 21:35
  Polly Mertens: So talk a little bit, you know.
• 21:36
  Polly Mertens: I I think I want to double-click on this a little bit.
• 21:38
  Polly Mertens: There's as you were talking about that, I'm hearing like a little bit of, you know, the helicoptering that we've heard about and the parenting dynamic, but we also see it peer-to-peer, I think, too, you know, like like the clinginess of groups.
• 21:53
  Polly Mertens: Like, I can't tell you one of the things I think about, I just want to insert this, is as you were sharing that, was like the little baby bird, and the mom is like, go fly, you know, and it's like, see ya, like, like just get after it.
• 22:06
  Polly Mertens: Not like she doesn't help them out the way, you know.
• 22:09
  Polly Mertens: It's like, no, you gotta try it.
• 22:11
  Polly Mertens: And in the I don't know if it's millennials or what the next generation is, how they sort of cling to each other as well.
• 22:18
  Polly Mertens: You know, they create these little groups and like I s I can't tell you how many of them I see rarely on their own.
• 22:26
  Polly Mertens: Like they're often groups of five or six or something, you know, and it it's not that that's unhealthy, but that that interdependence is quite stronger than you know, like the I don't know.
• 22:38
  Polly Mertens: I I think survival at the root brain is about like sameness and staying together, and yet progress and evolution is about continuing beyond that, right?
• 22:50
  Polly Mertens: So like rising up above that.
• 22:52
  Polly Mertens: So we have to find a way to, you know, manage this clinging and enmeshment, but also like you were saying, like be totally capable on our own.
• 23:04
  Samantha Pruitt: I mean, there is this, you know, if I'm gonna be safer in a group or I'm gonna be safer if I'm accepted, I'm inside the tribe or circle and I will survive, right?
• 23:16
  Samantha Pruitt: I will have my needs met, whatever the needs might be.
• 23:19
  Samantha Pruitt: That happens all the time as civilization has, you know, moved itself forward for millions and millions and millions of years.
• 23:28
  Samantha Pruitt: And it is interesting to see how individuality and you know being unique, like it's almost like there's phases to culture, and there's definitely in different religions and different cultures where it's a thing or it's not a thing or whatever.
• 23:43
  Samantha Pruitt: But there's a healthy balance there to being part of and having something to contribute in a group setting versus being an individual and being able to speak up, stand up, be unique, be seen, be heard, be respected, right?
• 23:59
  Samantha Pruitt: Like finding a balance there.
• 24:01
  Samantha Pruitt: And I think if you look at youth in general, you know, people hopefully are having in their youth an experience of doing both of those things.
• 24:12
  Samantha Pruitt: And it's really ultimately the parent and the household that sort of decides what is normal that is ebb and an ebb and flow of these experiences should be a normal experience, right?
• 24:25
  Samantha Pruitt: I would hope.
• 24:27
  Samantha Pruitt: But if we don't operate from that place or we have fear and anxiety around our child's well-being, and well-being can be, did they get their feelings hurt?
• 24:37
  Samantha Pruitt: Not are they gonna break an arm?
• 24:38
  Samantha Pruitt: You know what I mean?
• 24:39
  Samantha Pruitt: It's like literally we are so afraid of them having a bad emotional experience.
• 24:46
  Samantha Pruitt: They got their feelings hurt, somebody was mean to them, you know, this they were rejected or whatever.
• 24:52
  Samantha Pruitt: This is our shit that we are literally putting on these kids because that nothing has even happened yet, by the way, to them.
• 24:59
  Samantha Pruitt: And also maybe nothing ever will, but let's say it does, because that's called life.
• 25:03
  Samantha Pruitt: As they grow up, they will learn how to deal with that and they will develop skills around communicating with peers or with strangers or going into new environments.
• 25:14
  Samantha Pruitt: They will learn how to adapt and evolve if we give them the opportunity.
• 25:18
  Samantha Pruitt: And of course, if we do not, they will not learn.
• 25:21
  Samantha Pruitt: And then they're a young adult now in those circumstances.
• 25:24
  Samantha Pruitt: The stakes are now higher.
• 25:26
  Samantha Pruitt: And then they're an adult in the real world, college or work.
• 25:30
  Samantha Pruitt: And now the stakes are really high, right?
• 25:33
  Samantha Pruitt: So as they get older, the stakes get higher, parents.
• 25:37
  Samantha Pruitt: And so we're doing them such an incredible disservice by not allowing them to figure some of the shit out on their own, to experience bad experiences, to grow from that.
• 25:49
  Samantha Pruitt: Of course, we're gonna be there if something goes wrong, and we will help to, you know, have them work through that.
• 25:56
  Samantha Pruitt: But again, it's not our job to rescue or to make sure it never happens.
• 26:00
  Samantha Pruitt: I mean, what are we wrapping our kids in bubble wrap as they go out?
• 26:04
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, like we can't do that emotionally.
• 26:06
  Samantha Pruitt: We if we did that physically, it would be ridiculous, right?
• 26:09
  Samantha Pruitt: But we are doing it to them psychologically and emotionally.
• 26:12
  Samantha Pruitt: What's the difference?
• 26:13
  Samantha Pruitt: Mm-hmm.
• 26:14
  Polly Mertens: Mm-hmm.
• 26:14
  Polly Mertens: It's not good.
• 26:15
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, that inter, you know, interdependence enmeshment where, you know, like that that were that their well-being.
• 26:23
  Polly Mertens: So like some of the telltale signs is like their well-being or lack of it says something about you, or like you're okay, you're not okay based on them.
• 26:33
  Samantha Pruitt: Or am I a good parent or a bad parent because society's watching.
• 26:37
  Polly Mertens: And some of so people pleasing, overgiving, they're okay, they're not okay.
• 26:41
  Polly Mertens: And then also like like the I like that statement about like you erase yourself because I see my when I do that, you know, where it's like I'm so involved and invested in how you're doing, like, how are you today, or what's going on in your world, or whatever.
• 26:56
  Polly Mertens: Like that we get off the phone and I may have never even shared anything about my life, right?
• 27:00
  Polly Mertens: Or what what what I'm facing or dealing with.
• 27:03
  Polly Mertens: It's like, well, now I'll be okay over here.
• 27:05
  Polly Mertens: There was this great TED talk I saw one time, and this somewhat relates, and I'm just gonna bring it in because it it hit something in my my ner my brain.
• 27:14
  Polly Mertens: It was like, oh, this relates to that.
• 27:16
  Polly Mertens: And she talked a lot about how when there's a person of high needs in the family, right?
• 27:21
  Polly Mertens: So imagine a let's call it a little bit standard American family back in the day, you know, husband, wife, kids.
• 27:29
  Polly Mertens: There was a member of the family unit that had high needs, and there was a like, let's say a girl growing up, just for example, like me, that I would placate her.
• 27:41
  Polly Mertens: I would not have high needs or not put my needs second, so that the member of the family that had high needs was okay.
• 27:49
  Polly Mertens: It was like she called it like being a good girl.
• 27:52
  Polly Mertens: It was like, oh, you be a good girl because there's another family member that maybe it's the disease, you know, mom's sick or alcoholism, or a family uh the sibling has a learning disorder or something.
• 28:05
  Polly Mertens: Something's going on in the family that that it creates this imbalance.
• 28:10
  Polly Mertens: So that one's like, Well, I won't, I won't need more, right?
• 28:13
  Polly Mertens: So that can show up too.
• 28:15
  Polly Mertens: So if you see where you got trained in that, you know, that you know, graduate that for 30 years, 40 years later, and you just are like talking to people, and it's like all about them, right?
• 28:26
  Polly Mertens: And then I'm speaking from first person here.
• 28:28
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 28:30
  Samantha Pruitt: I also see it with the parents, or and I, you know, I'm a parent and a grandparent, so I'm definitely speaking from experience.
• 28:37
  Samantha Pruitt: I got a lot of I got a lot of people over here.
• 28:40
  Polly Mertens: You got a lot of relationships, yeah.
• 28:43
  Samantha Pruitt: I service a lot of relationships.
• 28:45
  Samantha Pruitt: You can get this is like a red flag, resentful, because you can learn to, or you can experience that maybe they're not being receptive or adaptive to all of your great ideas and support and giving and dah dah dah da.
• 29:04
  Samantha Pruitt: So you start to get resentful.
• 29:06
  Samantha Pruitt: That is a very obvious sign, like, hey, yo, you be codependent, okay?
• 29:11
  Samantha Pruitt: That's what that, that's why you got that going on.
• 29:14
  Samantha Pruitt: And then besides that really fun experience, another thing I see is you know, people getting really overly attached to other people's success, right?
• 29:26
  Samantha Pruitt: So it's like, hey, I did all these things and I gave you all this advice, or I supported you, or I paid for your education, whatever, right?
• 29:34
  Samantha Pruitt: And so my expectation now is that you're gonna be successful under my tutelage, okay, because I have responsibility there, because I helped you be successful.
• 29:44
  Samantha Pruitt: And now you better be absolutely crushing it because I have these expectations, right?
• 29:49
  Samantha Pruitt: So then there's resentment, anger, you know, all the disorder, disappointment, always just feeling like, you know.
• 29:59
  Polly Mertens: I gave you so much, and this is Yeah, this weird thing.
• 30:04
  Samantha Pruitt: Weird, the shit that we do.
• 30:06
  Samantha Pruitt: I mean, we have to laugh about it because it's ludicrous to think that if my child or a grandchild or a friend or whatever coworker is not successful, it's an assault to me.
• 30:22
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, it's a what the hell is that?
• 30:26
  Samantha Pruitt: Right.
• 30:26
  Samantha Pruitt: That's severe entanglement, yeah.
• 30:32
  Polly Mertens: The lens is distorted, if you will.
• 30:34
  Polly Mertens: So let's talk about like intimate relationships, right?
• 30:38
  Polly Mertens: So those closest to us, right?
• 30:41
  Polly Mertens: So what does some of this start to look like?
• 30:43
  Samantha Pruitt: Oh yeah, partnering and spousing, that's a thing, dude.
• 30:47
  Samantha Pruitt: I watched a little bit of it this weekend.
• 30:49
  Samantha Pruitt: Well, first of all, I've been married for 28 years, and this is my second marriage, so I got a lot of experience in that.
• 30:55
  Samantha Pruitt: And before that, I had no shortage of boyfriends, okay?
• 30:59
  Samantha Pruitt: Like I have done relationships waiting, yeah.
• 31:03
  Samantha Pruitt: Yes, exactly, in these ways, and that can be super complex because initially you might be attracted to the person because of your similarities.
• 31:13
  Samantha Pruitt: Not everybody is, but a lot of times, you know, we're looking for somebody who like same music style or puzzle pieces, yeah.
• 31:21
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, we're puzzle pieces in the same puzzle.
• 31:23
  Samantha Pruitt: We got to be together, you know, that kind of thing, right?
• 31:26
  Samantha Pruitt: And so there's an initially might be some attraction in that area.
• 31:29
  Samantha Pruitt: And then what ends up happening is you expect that person forever to be that same person because you need them to be that and reflect back to you who you are in the world and all of that kind of stuff, right?
• 31:43
  Samantha Pruitt: So it can get very, very strange because, first of all, none of us are the same day to day, never mind year to year.
• 31:50
  Samantha Pruitt: I'm not even the same person I was yesterday.
• 31:52
  Samantha Pruitt: I am telling you right now, I am not that person.
• 31:55
  Samantha Pruitt: I have already moved on to something else, whatever I'm thinking about and doing today.
• 32:00
  Samantha Pruitt: And so a healthy relationship would honor and nurture that and in fact celebrate that, which means there's going to be times where you feel not so close because you're in growth phases individually, which is great.
• 32:14
  Samantha Pruitt: And then besides the individuals being in growth evolutions, I hope they are, the relationship will change over time.
• 32:22
  Samantha Pruitt: It'll look different, it'll feel different, it'll sound different, it'll operate different, right?
• 32:27
  Samantha Pruitt: But people get ideas that they have to play by the same rules that when they first started dating before they got married.
• 32:36
  Polly Mertens: I think what you're pointing to as the unhealthy portion of this is expecting the person to stay the same.
• 32:42
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah.
• 32:43
  Polly Mertens: Right?
• 32:43
  Polly Mertens: Expecting yourself and the other person to stay the same.
• 32:45
  Polly Mertens: It's like, oh, we're always gonna be this close, we're always gonna be just like this, you know.
• 32:50
  Samantha Pruitt: Or you're always gonna meet my needs because that's in the contract.
• 32:53
  Samantha Pruitt: Did you read the contract?
• 32:54
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay.
• 32:55
  Samantha Pruitt: How about this thing when we get married and we say these things called vows?
• 32:59
  Samantha Pruitt: It's basically a freaking contract.
• 33:01
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 33:02
  Samantha Pruitt: Who the he by the way, does anyone do that anymore?
• 33:04
  Samantha Pruitt: I have no idea.
• 33:05
  Samantha Pruitt: But it's like that's a thing.
• 33:07
  Samantha Pruitt: We culturally as a society are like, well, there's a rule book.
• 33:12
  Polly Mertens: And some of them, guess what, are not spoken.
• 33:15
  Samantha Pruitt: And some of them are well, most of them are not spoken.
• 33:18
  Polly Mertens: I learned in that communication course last year when I was doing all that work with Landmark, it was like we have unspoken rules of engagement to relationship, and people bump up against them.
• 33:29
  Polly Mertens: It's like, whoa, but that's for another episode.
• 33:31
  Polly Mertens: But anyway, so so unhealthy, like you were talking about in relationship, is this expecting the same, or like, you know, just kind of clinging to the way it was in the beginning, or or something.
• 33:43
  Polly Mertens: And I would say for me, I'll give a couple of my telltale signs of the codependency was with along with the overgiving.
• 33:49
  Polly Mertens: So, like thinking overgiving is like the need to be needed.
• 33:54
  Polly Mertens: Oh, yeah, and not recognizing that as a bad thing because I was so freaking used to it.
• 34:00
  Polly Mertens: It was like, of course I would make your breakfast, of course I would do your laundry, of course, you know, all these.
• 34:05
  Polly Mertens: It's like, what the hell?
• 34:07
  Polly Mertens: Like, no, and and over giving, like, and you know, and you talked about that resentment.
• 34:15
  Polly Mertens: So for so long, not resenting, because it was just like, well, of course, this is just how it has always been in my relationships, you know, that I'm used to.
• 34:24
  Polly Mertens: But hello, hello, no, so notice needed and valued, dude.
• 34:29
  Samantha Pruitt: Needed and valued, right?
• 34:32
  Samantha Pruitt: Because the needed is one thing, like I serve a purpose, I have a role in this relationship.
• 34:37
  Samantha Pruitt: This is our unwritten contractor rules, and then the valued part is like, do you see how I'm adding value over here?
• 34:44
  Samantha Pruitt: Do you see how good I I'm speaking from my own 32 things I do?
• 34:48
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, do you see how good I am delivering on this, people?
• 34:52
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, hello.
• 34:53
  Samantha Pruitt: Do you see me crushing it over here?
• 34:54
  Samantha Pruitt: How good is your life, fools?
• 34:56
  Samantha Pruitt: Right?
• 34:57
  Samantha Pruitt: What in the hell do I care if they even recognize that or not?
• 35:00
  Samantha Pruitt: How about how good is my life?
• 35:04
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, right, and the giving and receiving, you know, that balance.
• 35:09
  Polly Mertens: So where if it's just totally like to the the tipping, you know, the tipping point is over in that direction, right?
• 35:16
  Polly Mertens: And and not even having a problem with it for a long, long time.
• 35:20
  Samantha Pruitt: So again, if resentment's showing up, some of this stuff is at play.
• 35:27
  Polly Mertens: And you know, and as you know, women of you know, middle age we could say, or men also we have these dual relationships.
• 35:34
  Polly Mertens: We got the children giving and then the parent giving, and it's just this is pouring out that can be going on.
• 35:42
  Samantha Pruitt: Oh, I mean I mean, you have depending on the structure of your life, partner, right?
• 35:50
  Samantha Pruitt: And then children, and then parents.
• 35:52
  Samantha Pruitt: So talk about a trifector from hell, you're trying to service these three major areas, yeah, of I mean the depth of these relationships, right?
• 36:04
  Samantha Pruitt: And the pressure on anyone, it doesn't matter, male, female, or whatever, like just to be servicing that dynamic.
• 36:12
  Samantha Pruitt: Um, because I know very I know lots and lots of men who have put a lot into their families, not just their career in the traditional way, but really care deeply about investing in the success and their children and those relationships and their parents.
• 36:29
  Samantha Pruitt: It's it's a lot.
• 36:31
  Samantha Pruitt: It's a lot.
• 36:32
  Polly Mertens: The other one I would add to this unhealthy is you know, making excuses for bad behavior.
• 36:37
  Polly Mertens: Whether it's their own, like they're treating themselves poorly or they're treating, you know, bad behavior towards you, I would say as well.
• 36:46
  Samantha Pruitt: Well, the excusing of bad behaviors, and if that's coming up, somebody is misbehaving and you're somehow, you know, tolerating that misbehavior, I mean, that's can be a whole other layer of dysfunction, right?
• 37:01
  Samantha Pruitt: But if you think about it from a codependency or an attachment orientation, since that's what we're talking about today, right?
• 37:08
  Samantha Pruitt: Like, why would we tolerate that from another human?
• 37:13
  Samantha Pruitt: What about our self is so desperate to stay in that connection with that person?
• 37:22
  Samantha Pruitt: You know, why is our value or our safety or our worth attached to being in that, you know, and and tolerating harm, psychological, emotional, physical.
• 37:34
  Samantha Pruitt: Why?
• 37:35
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, I think part of it is the need to be needed, like to stay in relationship.
• 37:40
  Polly Mertens: It's like I'm getting so much, or my needs are dependent on you, right?
• 37:44
  Polly Mertens: And so if if you leave me, then it's you know, back to that rooted childhood abandonment, you know, loneliness, I'm alone, abandonment.
• 37:54
  Polly Mertens: And it's so slippery, like it's not obvious, right?
• 37:57
  Polly Mertens: Like me making me or whoever making excuses for bad behavior, like it just seems like forgiveness, right?
• 38:04
  Polly Mertens: Or, you know, like being compassionate or sympathetic or whatever, right?
• 38:09
  Polly Mertens: But like take that a few steps back and it's like, what's really going on there, right?
• 38:14
  Polly Mertens: Like, why would I either allow someone to treat me that way or allow them to treat themselves that way and be around it, you know, whether it's you know, the physical verbal abuse situations that people can be in or neglectful situations, right?
• 38:27
  Polly Mertens: Like neglect of a person is uh bad behavior, like, hey, we're in a relationship, you know, neglect and it could be finances.
• 38:34
  Samantha Pruitt: I see a lot around people giving money to other people and financially supporting other people in whatever the relationship is, which is completely ridiculous.
• 38:44
  Samantha Pruitt: Like they can not even be servicing their own financial needs because they're so busy giving to another person in a financial way again to keep them safe.
• 38:56
  Samantha Pruitt: Maybe they genuinely suck at finances and they need that money, right?
• 39:00
  Samantha Pruitt: They can't pay their rent this month or whatever all's going on.
• 39:03
  Samantha Pruitt: Or the person just feels like, hey, maybe you're you're gonna be safe, but at the same time, I feel like I should give my resources to you as an act of love or as an act of showing you, you know, whatever somehow, again, codependency-wise, if you need me, you need me to help pay your bills, you need me to be financially, you know, stable or something, then you're not going anywhere anytime soon, right?
• 39:37
  Samantha Pruitt: That's problematic, right?
• 39:41
  Polly Mertens: You know, so I want to add a couple of things here from some work that we've studied, internal family systems.
• 39:47
  Polly Mertens: But first I want to say so that that fear, love, distinction, right?
• 39:51
  Polly Mertens: The unhealthy attached is fear-based.
• 39:53
  Polly Mertens: And it said, so I do this so you won't leave.
• 39:56
  Polly Mertens: Like that's rooted way in the back with their subconscious, you know, you're not necessarily aware of it.
• 40:01
  Polly Mertens: Like I said, like you might look at it like, oh, I'm being forgiving here, but like what's behind it?
• 40:05
  Polly Mertens: You know, and healthy attachment is generosity based.
• 40:08
  Polly Mertens: I do this because I care and I'm and I'm okay either way, you know.
• 40:12
  Polly Mertens: Exactly.
• 40:13
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, and it's like leave-I do this because I want to, I'm not attached to the outcomes.
• 40:17
  Polly Mertens: So internal family systems, if you haven't studied that or heard about that, look elsewhere, you know, for that.
• 40:23
  Polly Mertens: But it's therapy-based, right?
• 40:25
  Polly Mertens: So it says like we have parts of ourselves, right?
• 40:29
  Polly Mertens: You know, that really talks about like there's parts of us.
• 40:31
  Polly Mertens: We have this in almost like an internal family within us, ways of being, you know, that could be the protector, that could be the champion, that could be the the the hurt one, right?
• 40:39
  Polly Mertens: And from internal family systems explains why this happens, even when you know better.
• 40:44
  Polly Mertens: It says a wounded younger part, like an exile, right?
• 40:49
  Polly Mertens: So like there's a part of you that's like, oh, I'm abandoned or exiled, carries a belief like I'm not enough, or people leave, and there's a protector part, right?
• 40:58
  Polly Mertens: So you have these different parts of you.
• 41:00
  Polly Mertens: So you've got this wounded, exiled part of you, and then you create a protector part of you, like a survival strategy that builds an entire operating system around that wound called overfunctioning, caretaking, controlling outcomes, fixing.
• 41:16
  Polly Mertens: And it's not love, it's a protector strategy, right?
• 41:19
  Polly Mertens: Like you talked about that biological evolution of like systems that get taught or learned how to cope with that sad little girl, little boy that you know got abandoned or was neglected or you know, left, you know, may have been physically left blind, right?
• 41:35
  Samantha Pruitt: Right, exactly.
• 41:36
  Samantha Pruitt: And you never move past it.
• 41:38
  Samantha Pruitt: You take that wound and you carry it with you forever, and you generate an incredible cast of characters in play, if you will, around servicing the needs of that wound.
• 41:49
  Samantha Pruitt: So the wound is never available to heal, right?
• 41:53
  Samantha Pruitt: It's like I have a cut on my arm, and every day I'm gonna continue to lacerate the cut or rub it, or no, dude, it's not gonna heal.
• 42:00
  Samantha Pruitt: That's not how things heal.
• 42:03
  Polly Mertens: So that was that was the last point I wanted to make in the unhealthy before we get into what healthy looks like.
• 42:09
  Polly Mertens: Phew, right?
• 42:11
  Polly Mertens: Okay, okay.
• 42:13
  Samantha Pruitt: So there's a way out.
• 42:15
  Samantha Pruitt: I promise.
• 42:16
  Polly Mertens: So let's start to frame, and you know, look at this.
• 42:18
  Polly Mertens: This isn't, these are some things that Sam and Polly have to share with you, but there's lots of definitions of like healthy relationship, healthy boundaries, healthy attachment.
• 42:27
  Polly Mertens: So these are just some of them.
• 42:28
  Polly Mertens: So, you know, healthy isn't the absence of caring.
• 42:31
  Polly Mertens: You know, uh, we talked about like attachment, non-attachment.
• 42:33
  Polly Mertens: It's not like I don't give a fuck anymore, you know, you know, like peace out, y'all.
• 42:38
  Polly Mertens: I mean, it can be caring, but without the requiring.
• 42:41
  Polly Mertens: You know, it's it's loving without gripping.
• 42:44
  Polly Mertens: It's like I'm okay if you're not okay, right?
• 42:47
  Polly Mertens: Exactly.
• 42:48
  Polly Mertens: I'm okay if I don't, you know, check in on you, know how you're doing, and like overgive, and you know, like all these protecting, providing and stuff, right?
• 42:59
  Samantha Pruitt: Connecting without the clinging, right?
• 43:01
  Samantha Pruitt: There can be compassion and connection without the clinging to to then what to anything beyond that.
• 43:09
  Polly Mertens: I think the the image too is a good one, that enmeshment that sort of like these like a velcro or you know, it should stay like you can have oil and vinegar salad dressing, and they're still oil and vinegar.
• 43:20
  Polly Mertens: They might be like hanging out together, but it's not like oil suddenly changed its cellular makeup so that water, you know, could you know could get in or whatever.
• 43:30
  Polly Mertens: So, you know, its connection is mutual and it's flexible, and it's not like consuming or boundaryless, you know, like vinegar doesn't just open up itself and say, water, come in, right?
• 43:42
  Polly Mertens: It's like no, I'm I stay vinegar, you stay water.
• 43:44
  Polly Mertens: Okay, we we can become salad dressing, but we're not breaking our bonds to become one.
• 43:52
  Samantha Pruitt: Exactly.
• 43:53
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:54
  Polly Mertens: So let's see, what else do we have here?
• 43:56
  Polly Mertens: Healthy dependency is real and necessary, so you are allowed to lean on people, right?
• 44:02
  Samantha Pruitt: Like, of course.
• 44:04
  Polly Mertens: Absolutely.
• 44:04
  Samantha Pruitt: I mean, we're freaking coaches, we are coached.
• 44:07
  Polly Mertens: We like this is of course so the issue isn't needing others, it's when your sense of self disappears inside the relationship.
• 44:16
  Polly Mertens: That's the difference.
• 44:18
  Polly Mertens: So you can need Other people, but you still are like standalone, like on your own, right?
• 44:23
  Polly Mertens: So when you start to disappear into others, make your make yourself small, make your needs less important, that overgiving shows up, that striving to, you know, provide for other people, that's where things get that imbalance, right?
• 44:36
  Polly Mertens: So it's healthy.
• 44:37
  Polly Mertens: We just want to say, like, yeah, need people, get support, all of that, right?
• 44:41
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, totally.
• 44:43
  Polly Mertens: So, and then the other spectrum is hyper independence.
• 44:47
  Polly Mertens: I don't need anyone.
• 44:49
  Polly Mertens: Right?
• 44:50
  Samantha Pruitt: That protector is like I'm gonna reject you before you reject me.
• 44:53
  Polly Mertens: Mm-hmm.
• 44:54
  Polly Mertens: So on one end, it's like I don't need anyone, and then on the emeshment, it's like I can't function without you, right?
• 45:00
  Polly Mertens: So the target is interdependence, it's secure, it's balanced, and both people are as equals.
• 45:05
  Polly Mertens: Like one plus one is three, not one plus one is one.
• 45:09
  Polly Mertens: Right.
• 45:10
  Samantha Pruitt: Totally.
• 45:11
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:12
  Polly Mertens: All right, let's see.
• 45:13
  Polly Mertens: IFS would say, when you can lead from self, you have curiosity, it's calm, it's compassionate, it's clarity.
• 45:23
  Polly Mertens: Instead of from protector, instead of the protector part, your relationship changes.
• 45:28
  Polly Mertens: You stop managing and you start relating.
• 45:31
  Polly Mertens: That's good.
• 45:32
  Polly Mertens: It's not like this.
• 45:34
  Polly Mertens: I just think of it like over being over there too much.
• 45:39
  Samantha Pruitt: I just want to like that's what my brain the term managing is good because people understand what that is.
• 45:44
  Samantha Pruitt: First of all, most people have been managed, and most people have tried to manage others.
• 45:49
  Samantha Pruitt: You know, we're not just talking about the work environment, we're talking about in the everyday thing called living, you know, we're all trying to sort of do something, right?
• 46:01
  Samantha Pruitt: And if you find yourself trying to manage the other or being managed in a relationship, that is a red flag.
• 46:10
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, as you were starting to say that, I'm thinking of the difference between leadership and micromanagement, right?
• 46:15
  Polly Mertens: I think that's what you're pointing to here is you know, leaders create other leaders, they they cause leadership around them because they're self-leading, right?
• 46:23
  Polly Mertens: And when you're either overdoing, you know, like picking up all the pieces, or you're overmanaging, right?
• 46:30
  Polly Mertens: Like they they need me to to be okay.
• 46:32
  Polly Mertens: Like they're they're they're gonna f it up, you know, there's gonna be something to disappoint me, right?
• 46:36
  Polly Mertens: That's not leadership.
• 46:38
  Polly Mertens: No, that's managing.
• 46:40
  Polly Mertens: Managing, yeah.
• 46:42
  Samantha Pruitt: So that includes at home people picking up other people's shit, cooking all their meals.
• 46:47
  Samantha Pruitt: I could go on and on and on.
• 46:49
  Polly Mertens: All right, so let's say, like, okay, so now you we've painted a picture for unhealthy for quite a while.
• 46:54
  Polly Mertens: Healthy.
• 46:54
  Polly Mertens: I think people know the the imbalance of people pleasing, overgiving, you know, bashment, if you will, right?
• 47:03
  Polly Mertens: So, how do we practice this?
• 47:05
  Polly Mertens: If you start, you know, and this is I'm gonna be listening to these, taking notes, by the way.
• 47:09
  Polly Mertens: So what is where this where's the growth for coming out of codependency?
• 47:14
  Polly Mertens: What are some of the the ways that we can do that?
• 47:16
  Polly Mertens: One is I would say that clinging, notice the grip, right?
• 47:20
  Polly Mertens: Start paying attention to either the physical or the emotional signs of clinging, it's the tightness or the urgency, the I need to fix this, you know.
• 47:28
  Polly Mertens: Like I can it's the energy.
• 47:31
  Samantha Pruitt: There's an energy there, right?
• 47:33
  Samantha Pruitt: And you can feel that energy definitely in the room between the two humans that are having the experience.
• 47:41
  Samantha Pruitt: But you ideally, what we would like to see happen is you start to feel it in your own body first before it gets projected towards the other individual and it becomes you know a shared energy field or whatever.
• 47:53
  Samantha Pruitt: Like, what's going on in your own body where you feel like you even want to do whatever the thing is?
• 47:59
  Samantha Pruitt: I have some questions I'll throw into the mix at the end here, just trying to give people something to consider and they can write it down.
• 48:05
  Samantha Pruitt: But like feel it in your own body energetically before you start going after that need.
• 48:13
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, that clean.
• 48:14
  Polly Mertens: It's interesting as you started to say that I was getting something.
• 48:16
  Polly Mertens: Let me see if I it'll come back.
• 48:18
  Polly Mertens: It was like the anxiousness I feel in my body when someone isn't okay.
• 48:25
  Polly Mertens: Like I feel irritated, you know, because there's a difference between feeling like I've been practicing last year in the communication courses.
• 48:35
  Polly Mertens: A lot of it was practicing empathy, like being over with the other person and being there, but not needing to get them out of it.
• 48:43
  Polly Mertens: Being like, wow, that's a really tough situation, you know.
• 48:46
  Polly Mertens: And I would say leading or causing self-leadership in that person is helping them to see how powerful they are, or to just reflect, like, wow, I'm I'm really hearing what you're going through.
• 48:58
  Polly Mertens: And you don't even have to fix, just be like, so I totally get your world right now, or let me share, you know, let me speak to you.
• 49:05
  Polly Mertens: Like, I'm getting the experience that you're having right now.
• 49:08
  Polly Mertens: And I think great coaching is I've seen it, it's so sweet.
• 49:12
  Polly Mertens: It's just like it's just like this mirror.
• 49:14
  Polly Mertens: It's like, oh, and this is this is what you just told me.
• 49:17
  Polly Mertens: Does that look true?
• 49:18
  Polly Mertens: And it's amazing what empowered leading like that when that person sees it and it's sort of like they just needed to get it out of their head, and then it's it's out there in your mitt, and they go, Oh, like like a they're like, Oh, that's totally manageable.
• 49:33
  Polly Mertens: That's you know, like they're separate from it, like they're not like enmeshed in it.
• 49:38
  Samantha Pruitt: So rather than here's exactly what you're gonna do, follow these next are do this next.
• 49:44
  Samantha Pruitt: This is what you're right.
• 49:45
  Polly Mertens: Here's a recipe.
• 49:46
  Polly Mertens: Here's a recipe for less pain, less problems, less issues.
• 49:49
  Polly Mertens: Let me problem solve that for you, right?
• 49:51
  Polly Mertens: Here's what you need to do.
• 49:52
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, advice or this is what you should have done, which isn't even worse because then it's like a layering of judgment.
• 49:57
  Samantha Pruitt: You should have done XYZ, and then that shit wouldn't have happened, right?
• 50:01
  Samantha Pruitt: So you hear a lot of people speak to each other in those ways when someone comes with a pain point, right?
• 50:08
  Samantha Pruitt: Well, why did you do it like that, or why didn't you do it like that, or this is what you should do?
• 50:13
  Samantha Pruitt: Go back there, do this thing, right?
• 50:15
  Samantha Pruitt: Like, stop yourself from doing that.
• 50:19
  Samantha Pruitt: And if you feel it in your body that you want to have that response because it's programmed in you, right?
• 50:24
  Samantha Pruitt: We're just asking for a pause and a deep breath and a reconsideration of maybe doing it differently this this time and moving forward to you know.
• 50:36
  Polly Mertens: I was gonna say, hold your tongue.
• 50:37
  Polly Mertens: One of the things you were, it's interesting that you thought of like reflect, you know, like, well, you should have done this.
• 50:42
  Polly Mertens: And I was like, Wow, I think I even try to help people avoid bad situations, like totally that doing that might suck for you, you know, or like like helping them think things through that they may go, they need to go experience it, like you know.
• 50:58
  Samantha Pruitt: I have a saying I use a lot, and I say it with humor, but also love and compassion.
• 51:02
  Samantha Pruitt: It's like okay, how's that working for you?
• 51:04
  Samantha Pruitt: How's that gonna go?
• 51:05
  Samantha Pruitt: Let me let me know how that works out.
• 51:07
  Samantha Pruitt: Totally, totally can't wait to hear the story.
• 51:11
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, all right.
• 51:12
  Polly Mertens: So if we look at it, you know, how to grow through this.
• 51:14
  Polly Mertens: So internal family systems would say, like naming the part, right?
• 51:18
  Polly Mertens: Like we talked about, you've got this exile or abandoned you, and you've got this overprotective of you, right?
• 51:24
  Polly Mertens: So when you catch yourself in that pattern, the the behaviors, the sharing, the like, what's going on over there?
• 51:32
  Samantha Pruitt: Managing, let's call it the managing people.
• 51:34
  Polly Mertens: Over functioning.
• 51:35
  Polly Mertens: It could just be like like me, it was just like, oh, making breakfast every morning for someone, you know, like overfunctioning.
• 51:41
  Polly Mertens: So what part of you is running?
• 51:43
  Polly Mertens: Like what part of you is running this?
• 51:44
  Polly Mertens: Like, where is this coming from?
• 51:46
  Polly Mertens: Right?
• 51:46
  Polly Mertens: And and what is it afraid will happen if you stop?
• 51:50
  Polly Mertens: Like if I stopped doing this person's laundry or taking them to the whatever, or you know, whatever.
• 51:56
  Polly Mertens: You know, you don't have to do whole IFS family therapy and stuff like that, just noticing, like, wow, like, do I need to be doing this behavior?
• 52:07
  Samantha Pruitt: So also, I'll just point out from what I talked about earlier coming back from this trip and having this big recalibration of so many things.
• 52:15
  Samantha Pruitt: But in this area, it can be challenging for people, especially if they live in partnership in family or in a shared house or whatever.
• 52:22
  Samantha Pruitt: You might want to notify people that are about to see this shift and change that there's a shift and change.
• 52:31
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah.
• 52:31
  Samantha Pruitt: Because what will happen is they will bump up against it inevitably, right?
• 52:36
  Samantha Pruitt: And they won't have an understanding.
• 52:38
  Samantha Pruitt: They will then maybe experience rejection or anger, or they'll start to have their own thing, by the way, that has again nothing to do with you.
• 52:46
  Samantha Pruitt: But it's good for you to maybe broach in a conversation, hey, I am learning some things about myself and I'm going to be doing some things differently moving forward.
• 52:57
  Samantha Pruitt: Again, it's about me.
• 52:58
  Samantha Pruitt: It's about what I'm going to be experiencing and doing, what my personal growth is, without judgment or pointing fingers or, you know, all of that kind of stuff.
• 53:08
  Samantha Pruitt: Dissolve the drama out of it.
• 53:10
  Samantha Pruitt: There doesn't need to be a lot of drama, but just out of that compassionate place, that loving-kindness place of just saying, Hey, I'm I'm going to be doing some things differently.
• 53:19
  Samantha Pruitt: Heads up.
• 53:21
  Polly Mertens: I called it.
• 53:22
  Samantha Pruitt: Breakfast will not be on the table every morning at eight o'clock or whatever you said.
• 53:25
  Samantha Pruitt: Your laundry will not be done.
• 53:27
  Samantha Pruitt: Whatever.
• 53:27
  Samantha Pruitt: As a coworker, I will not be coming to your, you know, answering all the emails you're not answering.
• 53:34
  Samantha Pruitt: I had that recently in a work project.
• 53:36
  Samantha Pruitt: I was like, bro, you're not answering the emails.
• 53:39
  Samantha Pruitt: I'm a CC owner.
• 53:41
  Samantha Pruitt: So this is not my responsibility to answer to that.
• 53:44
  Samantha Pruitt: And I instinctively wanted to like jump in and answer, right?
• 53:48
  Samantha Pruitt: And I was like, Hold up now.
• 53:51
  Samantha Pruitt: So whatever the dynamic is, not doing for another.
• 53:55
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 53:56
  Samantha Pruitt: If you're going to stop the doing, and we suggest in many instances you do, you should have a conversation too.
• 54:03
  Polly Mertens: I call it creating new agreements.
• 54:05
  Polly Mertens: So there's an operating system or a way that they're used to you operating.
• 54:09
  Polly Mertens: You guys have an agreement, like I take out this, you do that, I pay the bills, you cook whatever these agreements are, and then you just suddenly, you know, like dinner's not there.
• 54:19
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 54:20
  Polly Mertens: Right.
• 54:21
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 54:21
  Polly Mertens: Oh, and I'm noticing where I'm not creating new agreements with my workout partner right now.
• 54:26
  Polly Mertens: This is interesting.
• 54:26
  Polly Mertens: So I'm just doing different behavior, but I'm not communicating it well.
• 54:30
  Polly Mertens: So yeah, anyway, so so creating new agreements, right?
• 54:34
  Polly Mertens: You know, totally.
• 54:35
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, totally.
• 54:36
  Samantha Pruitt: And you know what's so beautiful about that from my experience, what I've witnessed and what I encourage people to also experience is, you know, genuinely, usually that person, if you have relationship capacity and depth to it, will be not only super receptive, but will be looking at making their own new agreements.
• 54:56
  Samantha Pruitt: Like you open up the conversation and the space to possibility for them also to do things differently.
• 55:03
  Samantha Pruitt: And there's a sense of relief and also just understanding and wisdom and comparison.
• 55:09
  Samantha Pruitt: There's like there's a lot of beautiful stuff that can come out of these.
• 55:12
  Samantha Pruitt: Don't expect it to be conflict.
• 55:14
  Samantha Pruitt: If you go in with like, listen, I'm not doing the laundry and like that's not what we're talking about, right?
• 55:21
  Polly Mertens: I mean, you could even say, I mean, you don't have to say this, but as you were saying that, it was like, like, I've been preparing your food thinking that you couldn't even do it, or something like that.
• 55:29
  Polly Mertens: You know, like you could just come clean.
• 55:31
  Samantha Pruitt: But you wanted to eat this way, yeah, yeah.
• 55:34
  Polly Mertens: Or or I or it could sound like like I've been doing your laundry because I thought you would leave me.
• 55:38
  Polly Mertens: Or some, you know, whatever.
• 55:40
  Polly Mertens: Like make it sound absurd or make it like or I thought you'd stink, but guess what, you still might.
• 55:45
  Polly Mertens: So all right, how about shifting your language?
• 55:51
  Polly Mertens: So you know, it can sound like before unhealthy is like I'm helping, I'm helping, I'm helping, right?
• 55:58
  Polly Mertens: To I'm offering.
• 55:59
  Polly Mertens: From I need them to to I prefer, but I'm okay if they don't, right?
• 56:06
  Polly Mertens: I prefer that they did their own lawn, you know, whatever.
• 56:10
  Polly Mertens: Like so the the language, the story you're telling yourself can shift how you're going about it and your experience of it too.
• 56:17
  Polly Mertens: Like, because you know, that resentment comes from you know, this like woe is me, like I'm doing so much or I'm overdoing it.
• 56:24
  Polly Mertens: It's like, well, shift the perspective, like oh, you know, I I I'm offering to do this for them.
• 56:29
  Polly Mertens: And is that true?
• 56:30
  Polly Mertens: Or is it coming from that need to not be left?
• 56:34
  Samantha Pruitt: Right.
• 56:34
  Polly Mertens: So and you talked about this practicing the pause.
• 56:37
  Polly Mertens: So when someone you love is struggling or not, you know, not doing okay, notice the urge to jump in.
• 56:46
  Polly Mertens: You know, ask yourself, is this mine to fix?
• 56:49
  Polly Mertens: Is this mine to carry?
• 56:50
  Polly Mertens: Like, like what the hell?
• 56:52
  Polly Mertens: Like, what you know?
• 56:53
  Samantha Pruitt: I'm gonna give them some actual questions.
• 56:54
  Samantha Pruitt: I want people to write this shit down.
• 56:56
  Samantha Pruitt: Yes, because it is hard to remember when you're in the moment.
• 56:59
  Samantha Pruitt: You know, it's not hard to remember to pause, but it's like, well, you know, you you energetically in your body are putting it.
• 57:05
  Samantha Pruitt: You just sit there with nothing, you're already feeling angst or fear or whatever.
• 57:10
  Samantha Pruitt: Your nervous system is so attached to this thing that we're talking about, this kind of reaction way of operating.
• 57:16
  Samantha Pruitt: It's an operating system, right?
• 57:18
  Samantha Pruitt: And your nervous system is just so deeply integrated there.
• 57:21
  Samantha Pruitt: So create some space.
• 57:24
  Samantha Pruitt: Take a pause before you do some things, ask yourself some questions.
• 57:29
  Samantha Pruitt: So, whenever we're ready, I'll kind of go through them and they're a little bit fun.
• 57:33
  Polly Mertens: Please.
• 57:33
  Polly Mertens: Well, the only other one, maybe we'll end on those.
• 57:36
  Polly Mertens: The only other one is I mean, for gosh sake, just let people have their experience.
• 57:41
  Polly Mertens: You know, let people this this is like like I need this tattooed on the inside of my my eyelids for a while.
• 57:47
  Polly Mertens: Is just letting people write that shit down, girl.
• 57:52
  Samantha Pruitt: What am I doing?
• 57:53
  Samantha Pruitt: Oh, yeah.
• 57:55
  Polly Mertens: Tattooed on your forearm, right?
• 57:56
  Polly Mertens: So let people yeah, let people do what they're gonna do and have what they're gonna have.
• 58:01
  Polly Mertens: That is like the ultimate.
• 58:02
  Polly Mertens: No rescuing, no managing, trusting that adults are capable, even when it's uncomfortable to watch or listen.
• 58:11
  Samantha Pruitt: Tell kids, yeah, yeah.
• 58:13
  Samantha Pruitt: Humans are capable.
• 58:16
  Polly Mertens: All right, so what are some of these questions when you just see that person in your instant, you know, like your default is something's wrong with them.
• 58:24
  Polly Mertens: I need to like jump into action or something.
• 58:27
  Samantha Pruitt: So yeah.
• 58:28
  Samantha Pruitt: So these are questions I ask myself on a regular basis.
• 58:33
  Samantha Pruitt: Practice, you're practicing.
• 58:35
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, totally, totally.
• 58:36
  Samantha Pruitt: And they're questions to ask yourself before you before you call, text, advise, or just flat out run to rescue or step in.
• 58:48
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, yeah, just you know, that's like action.
• 58:50
  Samantha Pruitt: But sometimes it's also speaking from experience as a parent, wife, grandparent, whatever, calling or texting, because I'm thinking about them before they're even aware they have.
• 59:03
  Samantha Pruitt: You've got like three steps ahead, yeah.
• 59:04
  Samantha Pruitt: I totally projected out into five years from now.
• 59:09
  Polly Mertens: That's that's what I was talking about.
• 59:11
  Polly Mertens: Like, not just like, oh, you should have done this, but like you're you're you know this is coming and this you've effed this up before, or there's a there's a trap you're about to fall into.
• 59:20
  Samantha Pruitt: Exactly.
• 59:21
  Samantha Pruitt: Hawabunga.
• 59:22
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, so ask yourself these questions.
• 59:24
  Samantha Pruitt: Number one, am I compelled to do this out of my own fears, my own anxiety, or my own need to feel valued?
• 59:37
  Samantha Pruitt: So is this coming from inside of me?
• 59:41
  Samantha Pruitt: And am I compelled to do it because of my own fear or anxiety or need to be feeling valuable?
• 59:48
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, we're all filled with upset.
• 59:49
  Samantha Pruitt: But then that's about you, person, okay?
• 59:51
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, you're the one over here feeling the upset, so just recognize it, okay?
• 59:55
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, and then this other one is super important too.
• 59:59
  Samantha Pruitt: Are they actually asking for my help, support, advice, whatever, fill in the gap, and wait for it?
• 1:00:09
  Samantha Pruitt: Are they ready to receive it?
• 1:00:12
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:13
  Samantha Pruitt: Because a yes, we're coaches, so we do experience this a lot, but even with friends and family members, a lot of times they might be asking.
• 1:00:22
  Samantha Pruitt: I do get asked, you do get asked, right?
• 1:00:25
  Samantha Pruitt: But then we show up and they're not ready.
• 1:00:28
  Samantha Pruitt: They thought they needed help.
• 1:00:30
  Samantha Pruitt: They blah blah blah, and you know, and then then you show up to be of service in some capacity, and they're actually, no, it's not time.
• 1:00:38
  Polly Mertens: You know, this reminds me, um, so I'm I'm playing some scenarios with a loved one of mine, and I'll I'll I've even gotten to the point, you know, you talk about that resentment, like, oh, they never do what I tell them.
• 1:00:51
  Polly Mertens: Like, why should I even help them?
• 1:00:52
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, like they're not here for right.
• 1:00:55
  Polly Mertens: One of the questions on my questionnaire with my clients is well, it's like a two-part.
• 1:01:00
  Polly Mertens: It's on a scale of one to ten, how important is this you for you that you change this, right?
• 1:01:05
  Polly Mertens: Like, like, are you really committed to it?
• 1:01:07
  Polly Mertens: Like, and are you willing to do the work to get there?
• 1:01:09
  Polly Mertens: Right.
• 1:01:10
  Polly Mertens: So those two questions really show is this something that is bothering you enough, right?
• 1:01:15
  Polly Mertens: Because we can be in mild amount of pain and never do anything about it, right?
• 1:01:18
  Polly Mertens: Or we just want to complain and just like sit in the woe is me for a while.
• 1:01:23
  Polly Mertens: But is this at a level that you want to do something?
• 1:01:27
  Polly Mertens: You know, like it's painful enough that you're gonna do something about it.
• 1:01:29
  Polly Mertens: Number two, are you willing to do it?
• 1:01:30
  Polly Mertens: Are you willing to change?
• 1:01:31
  Polly Mertens: So, um, and I don't know how you do that necessarily, like you know, interview my loved one, like this of one or ten for you, you know, before before we spend any more time on this.
• 1:01:42
  Samantha Pruitt: How can we think you'll get from experience if you have your eyes open, enough feedback, whether it's verbal and obvious and direct or completely passive and indirect, as to what's really going on over there?
• 1:01:57
  Samantha Pruitt: Right?
• 1:01:58
  Samantha Pruitt: Is the person just calling you every day with whatever the crisis of the moment is?
• 1:02:01
  Samantha Pruitt: But they really freaking live for these things and it is a part of their identity.
• 1:02:06
  Samantha Pruitt: Just see it for what it is without a lot of judgment, but that's really just their choice, and they need to get on doing that thing, right?
• 1:02:15
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, I have a couple more questions.
• 1:02:17
  Samantha Pruitt: You ready?
• 1:02:17
  Samantha Pruitt: Do it.
• 1:02:18
  Samantha Pruitt: So you have asked these questions.
• 1:02:22
  Samantha Pruitt: Ideally, you've taken a pause and you've taken a breath and are trying to manage the energy in your own body.
• 1:02:28
  Samantha Pruitt: Never mind managing the other person's energy or them at all, and just pose these simple questions that I just put out there.
• 1:02:35
  Samantha Pruitt: But then additionally, ask yourself this question: can I love and honor myself now by holding my own boundaries and just focusing on my own self-care?
• 1:02:45
  Samantha Pruitt: So if I'm not going to go rescue, text, call, or be somehow entangled in this dynamic, can I instead redirect that energy back to self?
• 1:02:56
  Samantha Pruitt: Because there's something going on in you that does have a need that needs to be filled.
• 1:03:01
  Samantha Pruitt: Right.
• 1:03:01
  Samantha Pruitt: And wherever that anxiety, fear, or need to feel valued is coming from deserves your attention and deserves your love and compassion self-directed, self-directed, rather than, oh, let me just get busy finding somebody else who needs me or some other way for me to like get rid of this feeling that's really uncomfortable.
• 1:03:25
  Polly Mertens: Well, you know, it reminds as you were saying that, what I was thinking about is like the anxiousness, the urge to solve this, step in or rescue or whatever, is hey, this is just a part of me that's feeling I won't be left.
• 1:03:40
  Polly Mertens: I'll be abandoned, right?
• 1:03:41
  Polly Mertens: And it that you know, these things are so immediate, like you know, like there's this conversation going on, so it's not always present, but just noticing that, like they talked earlier about internal family systems, just naming it.
• 1:03:54
  Polly Mertens: It's like, oh, that's the protector, or like, oh, the anxious one is if I don't solve this person's problems, they'll abandon me.
• 1:04:01
  Polly Mertens: And it's like, oh, that's all that is.
• 1:04:03
  Polly Mertens: Oh, that's what that is.
• 1:04:05
  Samantha Pruitt: Oh, okay.
• 1:04:06
  Polly Mertens: You know, and in internal family systems, there's beautiful work around like comforting that side of you, and you know, like, like you said, self-care, like, oh, like, yeah, I see where that reminds you of being left, or that reminds you of being ignored or abandoned or treated like this, you know, like I can remember in a relationship I was in and the way that I was being treated, the way that we were interacting, it's like, wow, this really reminds me of how my mom treats me, you know, and I was like, that's so weird, right?
• 1:04:34
  Polly Mertens: So just noticing, like, oh, that's just recalling a time when you felt that way from childhood.
• 1:04:40
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:42
  Samantha Pruitt: And if it tends to bucket around food or finances or security or whatever, like you'll find probably, if you're paying attention, some recurring themes.
• 1:04:54
  Samantha Pruitt: That probably is really something going on within you in that recurring theme, right?
• 1:05:02
  Samantha Pruitt: Maybe I'm always cooking for others because I'm not actually feeding myself very well.
• 1:05:07
  Samantha Pruitt: Maybe I'm always taking care of other people's finances and rescuing around money because I have my own challenges with money and being neither financially responsible or feeling financially secure, whatever.
• 1:05:19
  Samantha Pruitt: Like there tends to be some stuff when we see it in other people that really is just needs of our own that are not being met.
• 1:05:28
  Samantha Pruitt: So it's like that awareness piece, and then having a deeper conversation with yourself or with somebody who can help you unpack that.
• 1:05:34
  Samantha Pruitt: Super freaking helpful.
• 1:05:36
  Samantha Pruitt: Super like I'm always triggered by X.
• 1:05:39
  Samantha Pruitt: Really?
• 1:05:40
  Samantha Pruitt: Let's talk about that.
• 1:05:44
  Polly Mertens: Right.
• 1:05:44
  Samantha Pruitt: Because it has nothing to do with that person over there.
• 1:05:48
  Samantha Pruitt: You're being triggered because there's something going on in you and it deserves attention and love and compassion.
• 1:05:55
  Samantha Pruitt: And you know, unpack that shit.
• 1:05:57
  Samantha Pruitt: Right?
• 1:05:58
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, I got one more.
• 1:05:59
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, can I whoo can I love and honor them?
• 1:06:05
  Samantha Pruitt: So the other, by giving them the space and the time they need to create their own path forward.
• 1:06:14
  Samantha Pruitt: Can I love and honor them?
• 1:06:17
  Samantha Pruitt: So you do have to be.
• 1:06:19
  Samantha Pruitt: Make peace with that because we love these people and we need to express that in a just in a different way now.
• 1:06:26
  Samantha Pruitt: So by loving and honoring them, giving them the time and the space they need to just figure their shit out.
• 1:06:33
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 1:06:34
  Samantha Pruitt: You know, people are capable, people are resilient.
• 1:06:37
  Samantha Pruitt: We need to trust that people can manage without us.
• 1:06:41
  Samantha Pruitt: They can.
• 1:06:42
  Samantha Pruitt: They can.
• 1:06:44
  Samantha Pruitt: And especially if they got raised by me.
• 1:06:46
  Samantha Pruitt: Hey, these people are capable.
• 1:06:49
  Samantha Pruitt: Like I'm confident that they're capable.
• 1:06:52
  Samantha Pruitt: So what am I doing?
• 1:06:53
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 1:06:54
  Polly Mertens: And and more protecting, providing, you know, fixing or whatever makes them not more capable.
• 1:07:00
  Polly Mertens: It actually has the reverse effect.
• 1:07:03
  Samantha Pruitt: And it also is a little bit, well, not a little bit, it's unfair that we are not giving them the gift of trusting themselves, of really learning about who they are in the world, about exploring their own gifts, about all of that.
• 1:07:20
  Samantha Pruitt: Like, come on, don't rob them and build your life.
• 1:07:24
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah.
• 1:07:25
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah.
• 1:07:26
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 1:07:26
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 1:07:26
  Polly Mertens: They're out there like a little child, discovering and playing and exploring and getting bumped-up knees and you know, falling down.
• 1:07:33
  Polly Mertens: It's like that's what we all do.
• 1:07:35
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 1:07:35
  Polly Mertens: As adults too.
• 1:07:36
  Polly Mertens: We bang up against stuff.
• 1:07:38
  Polly Mertens: And if and if they're not getting it, it just needs to get a little louder, you know.
• 1:07:42
  Polly Mertens: Maybe it needs to get a little more painful.
• 1:07:43
  Polly Mertens: But that's their journey.
• 1:07:44
  Samantha Pruitt: So no matter how old they are, by the way, I was referencing kids or whatever, but it I'm also talking about partners and friends and grown-ass adults at work, you know, and people in my community or whatever, you know.
• 1:07:57
  Samantha Pruitt: Um, I'm just laughing because there was a run this weekend that I helped to host and facilitate.
• 1:08:04
  Samantha Pruitt: And I saw some really interesting running behaviors out there.
• 1:08:07
  Samantha Pruitt: And I was not there in a coaching capacity.
• 1:08:10
  Samantha Pruitt: These people were not asking me for coaching advice.
• 1:08:13
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, so who am I to be like, what in the tomfoolery is that?
• 1:08:18
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay.
• 1:08:20
  Samantha Pruitt: Even though I was observing some really fascinating things going on, I was like, okay, you do you.
• 1:08:30
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah.
• 1:08:31
  Samantha Pruitt: That's cool.
• 1:08:32
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah.
• 1:08:33
  Samantha Pruitt: Now, if you want to come to me and you again, like I post those questions, are asking for and ready for some tips or advice or whatever, I'm all about it.
• 1:08:43
  Samantha Pruitt: I freaking love to play that role, right?
• 1:08:46
  Samantha Pruitt: Like I'm that, but not unsolicited.
• 1:08:49
  Polly Mertens: Not unsolicited.
• 1:08:50
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 1:08:51
  Polly Mertens: And robbing, like you said, I love like honoring and loving them enough that they can figure this out.
• 1:08:56
  Polly Mertens: Like exactly trusting and believing in them.
• 1:08:59
  Polly Mertens: Like, and as a leader of other leaders in your company, it's like, you know, maybe they need a little training, maybe they need to come talk to you about something, maybe they need some resources, maybe they do need support or whatever.
• 1:09:11
  Samantha Pruitt: But that's the question that we ask then, right?
• 1:09:14
  Samantha Pruitt: To in we are the leader to be asking that.
• 1:09:16
  Samantha Pruitt: What are the resources you need?
• 1:09:18
  Samantha Pruitt: Please tell me what you need to be successful.
• 1:09:21
  Samantha Pruitt: I will of course deliver that.
• 1:09:24
  Polly Mertens: Help facilitate.
• 1:09:25
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 1:09:25
  Polly Mertens: Do you need some things taken off your plate that you know give that to other people?
• 1:09:29
  Polly Mertens: Do you need some resources in terms of tools?
• 1:09:31
  Polly Mertens: You know, what could help you succeed at this?
• 1:09:34
  Polly Mertens: Like, that's what I think leaders are there to, you know, support their leaders in just launching.
• 1:09:39
  Polly Mertens: Like, yeah, get after it.
• 1:09:40
  Polly Mertens: But not like, oh, I see you haven't been managing your time very well.
• 1:09:44
  Polly Mertens: So I'm gonna like plan your day for you now, and I'm gonna tell you exactly what you need to be doing for the next five days, and that's it.
• 1:09:52
  Samantha Pruitt: You don't know how to prioritize.
• 1:09:54
  Samantha Pruitt: Let me do it for you.
• 1:09:56
  Polly Mertens: I'm getting so much out of this.
• 1:09:58
  Polly Mertens: This is just like, wow, wow, wow.
• 1:10:01
  Samantha Pruitt: Humaning, especially on a relationship level, like this is deep relationship stuff, is so complex.
• 1:10:09
  Polly Mertens: And I I hope if you've been listening all the way through to this, that you've seen or heard something that is like when you sort of unlock, dude, and unlock some like if you're not looking at your relationships and yourself and your experience in your relationships and the behaviors that you have or the triggers that you've seen show up over and over again, or how you're over-delivering or over-giving or over-protecting or something.
• 1:10:37
  Polly Mertens: We haven't done our job where you're just like not real, because we're like you said, we're all doing some of it.
• 1:10:42
  Polly Mertens: And if you've seen a lot of it, like I've been getting so much out of this because I see where it's showing up in so many areas of my life.
• 1:10:49
  Polly Mertens: You are a wonderful model, my dear, of you coming back from your trip and just being like, Oh, there's a new sheriff in town.
• 1:10:55
  Polly Mertens: This is things, things ain't gonna be the same, y'all, you know.
• 1:10:59
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, and stepping up with that.
• 1:11:01
  Polly Mertens: I'm not in an intimate relationship right now, so I don't have that, you know, like, hey, honey, we ask it.
• 1:11:06
  Polly Mertens: But going forward, I can see a lot of new ways of being.
• 1:11:11
  Polly Mertens: So thank you for this topic.
• 1:11:13
  Polly Mertens: I hope you guys have gotten something out of this.
• 1:11:15
  Polly Mertens: Just hearing the roots of it was very helpful for me.
• 1:11:19
  Polly Mertens: You know, I was like, I can see the behavior, but that just feels like I said, like I feel justified in trying to help somebody out of suffering.
• 1:11:26
  Polly Mertens: I feel justified in being a giver and wanting to, you know, show my loved one that I care about them.
• 1:11:31
  Polly Mertens: But there's also some dysfunction behind quite a bit of it that is exhausting and and it's exhausting, exhausting, depleting, it's it's degrading me.
• 1:11:43
  Polly Mertens: Like, like your needs are more important than my needs.
• 1:11:46
  Polly Mertens: My self-worth is tied to your well-being.
• 1:11:49
  Samantha Pruitt: What the like okay, there's a lot of redirected all of that energy into our own personal development and care.
• 1:11:59
  Samantha Pruitt: Yeah, oh my god.
• 1:12:01
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, you want to do some personal transformation, whether it's your physical body or emotional body or spiritual body.
• 1:12:09
  Samantha Pruitt: That's a lot of energy available to you now.
• 1:12:13
  Polly Mertens: Boom.
• 1:12:13
  Polly Mertens: So good, so good.
• 1:12:15
  Samantha Pruitt: So good.
• 1:12:16
  Polly Mertens: Well, I think you have a one takeaway or one.
• 1:12:20
  Polly Mertens: Maybe your questions were really good.
• 1:12:22
  Polly Mertens: Was there one question or one one thought?
• 1:12:24
  Polly Mertens: I think my takeaway is I love the pause, but I think it's just what was that one line that we had?
• 1:12:33
  Polly Mertens: It's like they're okay, like letting people do what they're gonna do and have what they're gonna have.
• 1:12:37
  Polly Mertens: Yep.
• 1:12:38
  Polly Mertens: That's and the letting them isn't even like they need fucking permission.
• 1:12:42
  Polly Mertens: Like they're like they're totally beautiful souls, like it's not even letting them, it's just realizing that they're gonna have what they're gonna have and they're gonna do what they're gonna do.
• 1:12:52
  Samantha Pruitt: Like, okay, so that's you can have connection without the clinging, right?
• 1:12:57
  Samantha Pruitt: So the clinging is the managing again.
• 1:13:00
  Samantha Pruitt: Like if you feel like you're managing your clinging, that's not connection.
• 1:13:05
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, that boundaryless.
• 1:13:06
  Polly Mertens: Like, I think about two cells, you know, and it's like they have to open up, and it's like, no, you can stay your own unique selves and you can still be in relationship and connected.
• 1:13:17
  Polly Mertens: So thank you.
• 1:13:18
  Polly Mertens: Thank you for this topic.
• 1:13:19
  Polly Mertens: This was beautiful helping this work over here.
• 1:13:22
  Polly Mertens: It's so good.
• 1:13:24
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, this is yeah, this is.
• 1:13:26
  Polly Mertens: I hope some you guys have been either taking some notes or just mental notes, like, okay, what am I gonna do differently?
• 1:13:31
  Samantha Pruitt: So, how do we want to leave our beautiful humans just with a gentle reminder of how your life looks is not that damn important, but how it feels is.
• 1:13:42
  Polly Mertens: And every day is your opportunity to find your awesome.
• 1:13:45
  Samantha Pruitt: Okay, we'll see you next week.
• 1:13:47
  Samantha Pruitt: Cheers.
• 1:13:47
  Samantha Pruitt: Bye.