Latest / Beyond the Paycheck / Colleen Ferrell, Chief People Officer at Burson
Transcript
- Kelsey Willock (00:46) Welcome Colleen Ferrell, Chief People Officer of the Americas at Burson. We are so beyond excited to have you. To kick us off, I would love for you to introduce yourself to our audience and particularly share a little bit about your career and background, where you're calling in from and your current role today. Colleen Ferrell (01:02) Sure, Kelsey, thank you so much for having me today. As you mentioned, my name is Colleen Ferrell. I'm the CPO at Burson of the Americas. A lot of what I do is set people's strategy across the full region. I spend a lot of time focusing on things like psychological safety, high performing teams, ⁓ really ensuring that we have high performance, but we're also kind of taking care of our employees. So kind of the intersection of high performance performance and you know catering to our employees so In terms of where ⁓ I'm calling in from Northern, Virginia. Just outside of Washington DC in terms of my career trajectory or how I got here, I kind of fell into HR, which I think you probably hear a lot from HR professionals. didn't kind of go out intending to be in HR, but here we are. I had kind of worked my way up, started in kind of a... like an HR admin position and kind of very slowly worked my way up. The more interested I got in the field, then I also kind of went and did certifications. I also got my master's degree in ⁓ HR management from Georgetown. So it's been kind of a, it's been a, it was something that I didn't know really existed and then I fell into it and then I really, really enjoyed doing it. So I kind of dug in and kind of went all in. Kelsey Willock (02:27) Georgetown is such a wonderful place to be educated, particularly with someone in your background, given the Jesuit education is so much about giving back to others. So I think it's a beautiful full circle moment. Colleen Ferrell (02:39) Yes, yes, it was fantastic. I owe a lot to Georgetown actually in terms of kind of I see them as where I really developed how I was thinking about leadership and how I was thinking about management. And now I'm actually the chair of the advisory board for the program. So it's a very full circle moment for me. Yeah. Kelsey Willock (03:02) So before we dive into all the amazing work you're doing today, I want to learn a little bit more about you. And so would you mind by indulging me in sharing us first your earliest memory of money? Colleen Ferrell (03:17) Sure. So I don't know how much you have heard this from other executives, but my memory of money is not really having much. ⁓ And I very much remember the struggle and kind of the stress that that created at home because we didn't have. So it was a very... Kelsey Willock (03:25) you Colleen Ferrell (03:35) My earliest memory of money was not necessarily a positive one, I think because I just associated that with ⁓ stress and kind of need. Kelsey Willock (03:49) And how do you think, thank you for sharing with me. know that money is a highly emotional conversation topic for so many, so I really appreciate your vulnerability. How do you think that shaped how you see security, freedom, even responsibility? Colleen Ferrell (03:51) Sure. Yeah, I think that I probably come to that kind of conversation a little bit differently than someone else that might have a different background or a different upbringing. I think that really kind of shapes how I look to award and the things that I am looking for in terms of how we are ⁓ attracting our talent and what we're doing to reward them. And then also even in terms of like if we look at inclusion and impact, how inclusive are we being and what kind of diverse backgrounds do we have of different people? What kind of background or upbringing did they have? ⁓ I think that kind of also is layered in here. So it definitely, I think it's made me very open-minded as a leader. It's also made me to understand or made me realize, you know, money is a very personal thing. And it's also like if you have stress as it relates to money, you don't just leave it at home, you take it to work. So what other resources do we have for people that they can, you that they can use or utilize ⁓ to kind of handle any financial stressors. Kelsey Willock (05:15) No, I think that that's a really wonderful way to think about it and imagine that level of emotional intelligence and ability to resonate with not all of us come from the same backgrounds or even understanding about money. Maybe that conversation around money has more weight. It sounds like you have a higher level of empathy than maybe others have. Can you tell me about your first job and what you did with your first paycheck? Colleen Ferrell (05:42) Sure, so my first job was working at a bagel shop. I don't really remember what I did with the paycheck. I'm sure there was some element of helping at home, but also some element of, you know, irresponsibility because, you know, was what, 16 years old, so I'm sure that there were, it wasn't all responsibility, but I do, I think that there was probably a combination there. I don't exactly know what I spent it on. I don't remember. I just, remember, I do remember looking at my paycheck and thinking, that's it, after taxes and all of that. Kelsey Willock (06:15) That's not what I remember my pay being. It's always quite a shock when you first understand how taxes work. Colleen Ferrell (06:21) Yes, yes it is it is and I remember asking my mom like is that right? She's like, honey. It's Texas. So Here you go Kelsey Willock (06:29) death and taxes, the two inevitable things in life. Colleen Ferrell (06:32) That's right. That's right. Kelsey Willock (06:34) So kind of starting to shift into pay and benefits, how do you think your money story has influenced how you think about pay and benefits for your employees? Colleen Ferrell (06:45) Yeah, think, again, you never know what people are dealing with on a personal level. And honestly, that doesn't necessarily matter. But I think. Ensuring that it ties back to kind of fairness and equity is super super important for me I like to be able to say hand over heart that this was done equitably or it was fairly and applied across the board in a similar way so those things are really important to me because I don't want anyone feeling like They were singled out or not treated in a way that was fair as it relates to others. So that is something that's really important to me. I would say that another thing that is kind of becoming very clear is that I think we're kind of shifting in a way that is probably going to be a little bit more individualized or personalized as it relates to money and benefits. But I think... It's so interesting to see kind of where the world goes and where it shifts. And there's always kind of a new trend and benefits. know, COVID era was very much was very much. you know, mental health and, but also like figuring out what that means. So I think that's the other piece of this is like really finding out from your employees, what do they mean if they say they want mental health support? What is that to you? Because it could mean a zillion different things. And if you're not actually going back to your people and asking them what they mean by X, Y, Z, then you're basically just throwing spaghetti at the wall, hoping something will stick. Kelsey Willock (08:12) So I'm going at a certain point in this conversation to really get into tools, but you've piqued my interest to learn a little bit more. How are you assessing how they want to be using these tools? And are you using any interesting ways to extract that information? Colleen Ferrell (08:28) I don't know if we're doing anything that is necessarily like cutting edge, but it's such a basic principle around like stay interviews and asking people and just surveying them and asking them what they think. ⁓ bet honestly such an underutilized tool to use to just literally ask your people what it is that they want or how they want to be using certain things. Yeah, it's so powerful and you're going directly to the source. Kelsey Willock (08:58) Right. And sometimes the most basic solution is the best one. Right, right. So I want to talk a little bit about today's challenges particularly. Where do you see compensation and benefits breaking down most often today? Has it to do with pay equity? Is it transparency? know pay equity is super important to you. Is it understanding total rewards or something else? Colleen Ferrell (09:02) Yeah, yeah, let's not complicate it. So I do think just as 16 year old Colleen looked at her paycheck and said, my god, I thought that I would have more. I think that actually is a real breakdown in terms of what employees are expecting and what we as the employer are looking at in terms of total rewards. So I do think that. understanding around what makes up your paycheck and what makes up total rewards. I truly feel Kelsey like communication solves a lot of issues as it relates to like anything we're talking about with people ⁓ being clear and transparent in terms of like anything but particularly compensation and benefits and sharing how you got to point Z is probably one of the most impactful and important things you can do and then In turn, employees appreciate the fact that you've been transparent and honest and open with them. Kelsey Willock (10:19) Again, it's kind of back to the last conversation topic we had. It's sometimes the more simple is the most obvious, asking people directly. And sometimes in this age of so much hyper technology growth, we forget that the survey, the direct conversations can be so, powerful. Colleen Ferrell (10:37) Yeah, totally. mean, and I think there's absolutely a place for technology. There's a place to use AI in this conversation. But I think talking to people and having that human connection is super important. And that is not going to go away. Kelsey Willock (10:54) So you probably are not going to be surprised that I'd love to double click on that AI comment. Where are you seeing ⁓ technology be specifically helpful as it pertains to AI? And where are you also leaning more into the human side of things, not necessarily leveraging technology like AI? Colleen Ferrell (11:14) Yeah, So AI is fantastic. I use it all the time, but I don't think it's a replacement for my brain or my experience. ⁓ So I do use it in certain places, particularly if we're looking at a data set or something like that. It's great at looking at data and pulling out call outs or things that... you know, maybe an outlier or just kind of red flags for data, especially we're talking, you know, in light of compensation. But I think without the kind of experience. the experience that I have, I don't know that I would be able to use AI as efficiently or as effectively as I can today if I didn't have the background and the experience that I do. think if I was just getting thrown into AI ⁓ and just using it in the way that I'm doing today, it would just be a bunch of, know, golf. cook. Like it just wouldn't make it wouldn't make sense and it wouldn't be like they're really most the most accurate data. So I think I'm using it in large data sets using it to like sometimes if I have some ideas about whatever it is whatever topic that it is kind of putting that into AI as a prompt that could be helpful it's like a you know, conversation starter, but it's not meant to be like an end to end total solution. And I actually don't want it to be. And then in terms of like the human component, really, again, understanding what our people want, understanding, like having those conversations with our people, making sure that they feel heard and valued, I think is super important. And then also making sure that any of the suggestions AI puts out are not I think that's really a concern that a lot of us have in these types of tools. Kelsey Willock (12:59) Mm. Yeah, no, I, even when I talk to senior leaders like yourself, there's this really emerging trend that it's a really highly intelligent, almost MBA intern, but you've got to its work. I don't hear as many people though talking about the ethics behind it, although there is this growing concern around the bias that it provides. So love that you're bringing that up. And it sounds like organizations are going to start paying more and more attention to that as we better understand the tools themselves in the first place. Colleen Ferrell (13:35) Yeah, absolutely. Kelsey Willock (13:35) ⁓ I'd love to better understand where you've seen a change enacted, where you moved from attracting talent to transforming lives within your organization. Colleen Ferrell (13:51) So I think in terms of, this is like it goes back to the most simple principles, but understanding what your employees want. No two organizations are exactly the same. And I think that any very senior HR person that goes into an organization and expects to use the same playbook as they used in the last one, it's not going to work. So I think transforming lives is going to be different depending on where you are, depending on your employee base, transforming lives of an employee base that is an average of 30 years old and centered in Washington DC is going to be much different in other locations. So I think that is a key component here. What is your demographic of your employee pool? What is it that they have expressed wanting? One of the things that... You know prior to ⁓ burson, ⁓ so burson was a merger as you know formed out of a result of a merger between bcw and helen nolton And when I had first joined bcw about four years ago One of the key things that our employees were saying that they wanted was, you know better parental leave So we took a look at that and we made some changes and it did transform lives So that is one, you know small thing Not so small thing. I have three children. So not so small thing that really did impact a lot of the lives of our employees in a really positive way. I think, again, using comp and benefits as a tool to not just attract people, but also show that you really understand what it is that they want and what they want from you as their employer. And also what really you can do as a business to meet that need, because we also have those restrictions too. So I think kind of trying to find that area where we intersect is super important. Kelsey Willock (15:51) And the theme that I'm really hearing from that is actually just paying attention to the demographic itself, which is it sounds like you did the research on there was a higher concentration of parents. I really appreciate you sharing that with us. And it's such a tangible thing that people can do. Colleen Ferrell (16:08) Yeah, it's one of the easiest things that you can do is just understand what does your employee base look like? What are they saying they want? Have you done employee surveys? If so, what did they say in them? You could use AI there to kind of pull out some themes in the results and then go from there in terms of action planning and creating a plan to really kind of make a difference in their lives that also make a difference in the business. Kelsey Willock (16:37) Exactly. I want to talk a little bit more about fair pay and empowerment, especially around leaders. What guardrails do you think leaders need to keep to ensure that pay is fair and empowering? Colleen Ferrell (16:51) Yeah, this is one of those things I feel like pay transparency, pay equity, they're very hot topics right now, understandably so, they should be. But I think in terms of the guardrails, understanding kind of the different parameters around how we arrive at one's pay. So again, I think educating ourselves on. how we compensate our people, what levers do we have to pull to get to the right comp level, and also understanding the differences between two particularly different roles, for example. And then in terms of equity, one of the things that I always say is, OK, if you are going to pay person A more than person B, tell me why. Let's just start with a conversation. Tell me why. Because that, I think, will often be very telling. is, well, it requires all of these very high level senior contacts that are really difficult to get and it requires very specialized training or very specialized schooling or whatever. OK, you have your answer. If the scope of the role is larger, you're right. There are certain things that are kind of. I think very ⁓ telling in terms of how we make those distinctions. But then we also have situations where it is not a good rationale. If you cannot come up with a reason why there are differences in pay, then you probably need to be paying them within a percentage point of one another. Kelsey Willock (18:27) So it's really about understanding both the qualitative and quantitative and telling the story effectively from that. I love that. Colleen Ferrell (18:30) Yes. Yeah. As you can see, a lot of my answers center around understanding and just being really up to date on your facts and your data before you make a call on something. Kelsey Willock (18:45) And so that leads me to the question I really want to get into around tools. What tools or data sets are you using to help measure and improve particularly pay equity and also well-being in general? Colleen Ferrell (18:58) So I think in terms of pay equity, we have a fairly large employee base, so it's pretty easy to kind of rely upon our employee data set to see kind of where we are in terms of pay equity. We do have also access to different salary tools and things like that within our industry. So that's super helpful. think, again, you cannot replace the kind of human eye component, I think, of really looking into kind of your employee data set and understanding kind of the nuances there. So while I might be able to put an unnamed data set into kind of an AI tool to understand what the outliers are or if there are pay equity issues, it needs the human component to further review if the data is accurate and if the callouts are also accurate. And if they're not, then you have your answer. I'm sorry. I think you had another question for me. Kelsey Willock (19:53) No, I think you answered it perfectly. My follow-up I have to that, though, is are you building these tools in-house? Are you leveraging outside tools to effectively review data sets? It sounds like the folks that are reviewing data are all internal. Colleen Ferrell (20:09) Yes, they're all internal. We don't use external resources for that. Although I don't think that that is, again, we have a pretty large employee data set. have a pretty large number of resources. We do have WPP kind of. ⁓ built tools that we can use to help assess different data sets and things like that. So I think for an organization like ours, it would probably be a lot less likely that we would use an external tool or ⁓ an external consultant, for example. But there are a lot of small to mid-size organizations where they're absolutely going to have to do that because they don't have the resources or the tools in order to make that assessment. So again, it's just totally dependent upon on the size of the organization, the demographics, the kind of resources that are available. It's very, very dependent organization to organization. Kelsey Willock (21:05) And from an impact in ROI perspective, what are you seeking? Is it boosted engagement? Is it higher retention? Is it higher employee satisfaction? Is it a combination of the few? Colleen Ferrell (21:17) Yeah, I think it's a combination. the end of the day, what my job is, is to ensure that we are kind of building the best environment for high performing employees. That's what we want. We want to boost performance. We want to boost client satisfaction revenue. So what I'm looking at is, are the tools and are the kind of different levers that we're pulling, is that retaining the best talent? Is it attracting the best talent to kind of get to the higher revenue? operating profit, things like that. Those are the things that really matter. I can make a case for employee programs and employee satisfaction. All of those things are important, but at the end of the day, I am a business leader and I have to be able to justify it from a business standpoint. Kelsey Willock (22:04) And what do you think would be one 30-day experiment, our listeners, who are mostly heads of HR, chief people officers, benefits leaders, could try to boost engagement at their companies? Colleen Ferrell (22:20) Say. Again, it's going to be totally dependent on the organization, but I've had a ton of success with kind of listening tours and that might be in a number of different ways and not just listening, but also reporting back what you heard and what you're gonna do about it. That is like one of the best ways to boost engagement. And it doesn't mean you have to necessarily act on everything. It just has to be, we heard this thing and we feel like it's really important for us to focus on this one thing that we heard from all of you. You don't know what your employees are thinking unless you ask them. And I think that is one of the best ways, again, asking and kind of sharing back what you heard and sharing an action plan, not just sitting on those results because then that actually goes, engagement goes in the other direction. So that would be my guidance for boosting your engagement for sure. Kelsey Willock (23:20) Colleen, thank you so, much. I sincerely appreciated even the start of this conversation, how vulnerable you were in sharing your story. Some of the things I really took away were how you're thinking about transforming lives. However, understanding that each organization we work for is so highly nuanced. So you need to pay attention before you transform lives at things like employee pool demographics and more, such as you paid so much attention to the fact that person came as a result of a merger. Therefore, many many demographics that were maybe coming together at the table. ⁓ I also loved how you shared the idea around parental leave that directly helped transform folks' lives by paying attention to that information. And I also want folks to really take away that listening tour idea. It's something that is so highly actionable immediately, but it's not just about going on the tour itself. It's about reporting back what you heard and actually what you're going to do about it, synthesizing the data and bringing that really qualitative approach to the data. So thank you so, much for sitting down with us, sharing all your incredible learnings. I'd love to give you a final opportunity to share with our listeners how they can connect with you. Colleen Ferrell (24:35) Yeah, of course. Probably best way to connect with me is on LinkedIn. I am pretty active there. Feel free to reach out. ⁓ I try to respond to messages as soon as I can. So that would be the best spot. Kelsey Willock (24:48) Well, I hope you have a wonderful afternoon, Colleen. Thank you so much for joining us. Colleen Ferrell (24:51) Thanks for having me, Kelsey. Take care.