Latest / Heavyweight / #35 Rachel and Jon

Transcript

#35 Rachel and Jon · Heavyweight

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hi, John, I am robot Goldstein. I will be
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: your robot medical assistant. Pass me the scalpel to chat.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Would you would you really? Would you love to continue
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: to chat with me?
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: No?
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: How many people are you able to be that honest with.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: Just you?
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: So?
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Well, that's that's kind of special, right, I know that
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: is a good point. Do you see it's a very
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: special bond? Yea from Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein and
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: this is Heavyweight Today episode Rachel and John. Right after
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: the break.
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: You ready to start? I'm ready to start.
• 1:28
  Speaker 5: You're sitting down?
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, your eyes closed. Anything you see where there's
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: some feelings, that's what we're looking for.
• 1:35
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: This is a therapist named Alvin in session with a
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: patient named Ted. What are you feeling?
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: Can you describe it? Like it's happening right now, right now.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: The session was recorded as a part of an educational
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: psychotherapy video series. In the session, Alvin is helping Ted
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: relive a memory. The time is domineering father in law
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: was rude to his wife.
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and he's all dressed up.
• 1:59
  Speaker 5: Hi, Jenny, Yeah, oh there is and.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: He's Yeah, there's a formal thing.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: It's like, you know, good to see we have to
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: It's like the meanute. We talk to each other, our
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: voices drop, yeah, hi, how are you? Alvin's eyes are
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: shut tight. His method is to try to will himself
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: into the patient's skin to feel what the patient is feeling.
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: I can do this better than you.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Watch me. Okay, okay, okay.
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna put my arms around you.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna bring you kind of clothes.
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: I'm doing better than you. Huh yeah good.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: Alvin does voices and role plays, and at times the
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: session feels like avant garde improv It's playful and honestly
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: kind of bizarre. But the point of it all is
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: to help the patient rehearse behavior in the office that
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: he can then apply in real life. Toucher toucher, Oh yeah, Holder.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: And Jenny like so much.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: By the end of the session, Alvin has turned ted
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: a meek, buttoned up patient into someone capable of expressing
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: himself emotionally. Gonna be this way with Jenny because you
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: rehearsed it, got it.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: I'm ready.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: We had this ability within us to become a whole
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: new person.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Alvin died in twenty fourteen, but this is Howard, a
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: psychotherapist and one of Alvin's disciples. Howard runs Alvin's website
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: and publishes his books. Are you talking a little hyperbolically
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: when you say a whole new person?
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: No, it is that radical topathon. It's to become a
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: whole new person the term you use as an optimal person,
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: and to discover that within yourself.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: According to Alvin, once you've discovered this optimal personhood, you
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: can shake off what others want and live on your
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: own terms.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: It changed my life direction.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: And for these kinds of radical results, Alvin was given
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: a Lifetime Achievement Award from the American Psychological Association. One
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: psychology textbook even goes so far as to describe Alvin
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: as being quote as important as Freud. But this isn't
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: a story about Alvin's professional life, his life inside the office.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: This is a story about Alvin's real life.
• 4:21
  Speaker 5: He insisted, I run away.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: This is Rachel, Alvin's daughter, and I.
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: Did, How old were you? I was in grade five?
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: The year was nineteen seventy. Alvin and Rachel's mom had
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: been locked in an ugly custody battle for eight years.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Rachel's mom was poor and struggled with depression. Rachel really
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: wanted to live with her dad, so when Alvin suggested
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: she run away from Judy in Denver to his house
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: in Ohio, Rachel didn't pack a bag, She didn't say
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: goodbye to anyone. She just left.
• 4:58
  Speaker 6: Like he set up this whole thing with his lawyer,
• 5:01
  Speaker 6: and I just felt like I needed to do with
• 5:04
  Speaker 6: my dad. And the lawyer told me and this was
• 5:06
  Speaker 6: the right thing. I think, I said, I was going
• 5:08
  Speaker 6: to the lie and somehow, I don't remember how I
• 5:12
  Speaker 6: got to the lawyer's office, and then they took me
• 5:15
  Speaker 6: to the airport and put me on the plane and
• 5:18
  Speaker 6: I left.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Alvin had gotten remarried to a woman with two kids,
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: and Rachel loved feeling like she was a part of
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: this happy family. There were dogs to play with and
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: bikes to ride, and yet this other feeling would often
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: creep in.
• 5:37
  Speaker 6: I miss my mom, I miss my friends, I miss
• 5:40
  Speaker 6: my cat. But I could never ever ever say that
• 5:44
  Speaker 6: out loud to anybody.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: And there was someone else Rachel missed, missed most of all.
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: She told us she was going to the library, and
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: then she never came back.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: This is Rachel's brother John. He's two and a half
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: years younger than Rachel and only has flashes of early
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: childhood memory About Alvin. He recalls doing father's son things
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: that it'd make perfect sense if the son was an adult,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: things like lifting weights together and smoking.
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: He was a pipe smoker. He bought me my own
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: little cherrywood pipe, and you know, as a four year old,
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: he actually had me smoking, you know, tobacco in the
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: pipe with him.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: It was as though Alvin couldn't distinguish between adults and children,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: which was why he saw John's closeness with his mom
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: not as a child's natural maternal attachment, but rather as
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: a personal slight and so Alvin ever asked John to
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: run away. John was left behind in Denver with Judy.
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: I think in his mind, I just, you know, was
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: more a mama's boy and a chip off Judy's block,
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: and I think he sort of gave up on me,
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: and he was really focused on Rachel.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: And as the final custody hearing approached, Alvin's focus on
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Rachel and intensified. He wanted to prove to the court
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: that Rachel was better off with him, So he had
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: about a half dozen social workers and psychologists offtfare assessments,
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Rachel was interviewed, and Alvin's new family observed. None of
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: the experts spoke to Judy, and the plan worked. In
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: the autumn of nineteen seventy, a judge ruled that Rachel
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: would be allowed to stay in Ohio with al for good,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: but John would remain in Denver with Judy.
• 7:36
  Speaker 5: And we never lived together again.
• 7:46
  Speaker 6: When you have a sibling who is just a critical
• 7:50
  Speaker 6: part of your family and then you're separated from them,
• 7:54
  Speaker 6: it's a wound.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: How uncommon was an arrangement like that?
• 7:59
  Speaker 6: Extreme? Yeah, very very uncommon. Kids are not split up.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: We each grew up alone. I missed her through my
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: my whole childhood. I missed her a lot. I mean,
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: we were so close when we were young, and you know,
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: she was the big sister who through all of that
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: was looking out for me growing up from then on,
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: just me and my mom. Grew up as an only child,
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: and my mom just always being in pain, and she
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: never was able to enjoy whatever it is we were
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: doing at the moment. It was always, Oh, if only
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: Rachel were here, we could all be together, and I'd
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: be saying, but we're here now.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: When he turned thirteen, John invited Rachel to his bar Mitzvah,
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: but Alvin wouldn't let her go. Rachel sent a poem instead.
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: It had to do with a rubber band stretching across
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: the distance and connecting us.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: For John, not only did he lose his big sister,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: he also lost his dad. Year after year, John tried
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: to re enter Alvin's life, but each time he reached out,
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Alvin rebuked him. One time, as an adolescent, John tried
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: scheduling a visit.
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: Then he said, well, as long as you guys you
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: know me and my mom required any money, any child support,
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: there be no visit. And I said, well, it sounds
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: like you care more about money than about me, And
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: he said, well, I don't want it to just sound
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: like that. That's how it is.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: Nevertheless, a few years later, John asked once again if
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: he could come visit. By this point, Rachel was eighteen
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: and no longer living with Alvin, So when Alvin refused
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: John yet again, Rachel told her brother to come visit
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: her instead. They hadn't seen each other in eight years.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Was she the same sister that you remembered?
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: No? I mean I knew her as a you know,
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: six seven, eight, nine ten year old. Next time I
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: saw her, she was an adult.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: In the years since that visit, Rachel and John have
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: made a point of staying in each other's lives. They
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: talk on the phone, celebrate holidays together, and once a
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: year their families all take a trip. But their childhood
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: together that's been lost.
• 10:39
  Speaker 6: I mean, my daughter certainly watches us and thinks that
• 10:42
  Speaker 6: we're more like cousins. She can see the disconnect because
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: we did not grow up together.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: John and Rachel still have questions about their childhood, but
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: now that their parents are both dead, they have no
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: one to ask, so they pass through their separate memories,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: trying to construct a timeline, comparing moments of overlap and
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: filling in the blanks to this end. One night, while
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: John was visiting Rachel for Thanksgiving, he asked if they
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: could go through Alvin's files. Alvin was an obsessive record keeper,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: and after he died, Rachel inherited his papers. She'd never
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: really gone through them, keeping them stored away in a
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: filing cabinet, but that night she pulled him out, and
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: together John and Rachel made a series of disturbing discoveries,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: the first of which was the script.
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: The script for me was like, oh my God.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: The script was a lengthy diatribe written by Alvin from
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: the point of view of a child, Rachel's point of view.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: In it, Alvin refers to himself as Daddy, Judy, as mother,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: or Judy or simply she. I later asked Rachel to
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: read some over the phone, two and.
• 11:58
  Speaker 7: Half pages long and small psychologists, writing, Okay, so here
• 12:02
  Speaker 7: I go. It's in my good, happy dreams. Custody is changed,
• 12:06
  Speaker 7: and I live with Daddy. If I am forced to
• 12:11
  Speaker 7: go back and live with mother, it will only be
• 12:14
  Speaker 7: till the day I'm fourteen, which apparently was when you
• 12:17
  Speaker 7: could de side. When I'm with her, I feel scared
• 12:21
  Speaker 7: that I might get tight and angry and cold like Judy.
• 12:26
  Speaker 7: She's not a mother, she is a keeper. She makes
• 12:28
  Speaker 7: me feel like I'm in a prison. I can't let
• 12:32
  Speaker 7: her touch me.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: It was like finding your childhood internal monologue committed to
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: paper and written in your father's handwriting. Rachel didn't remember
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: seeing the script as a kid, but you remembered saying
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: those things, and she remembered thinking them. In one of
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Alvin's many books, a volume entitled The Manual of Optimal Behavior,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: He writes that behavior can be rehearsed and modified quote
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: until you are ready and eager to go ahead and
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: do what you have rehearsed and modified. Unbeknownst to her,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Alvin was having Rachel rehearse and modify.
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: It was so explicit. There was nothing subtle about it.
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: You know, the whole thing was sick.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: The second thing discovered among the files was a letter
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: from Rachel to her mom. In it, she begs Judy
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: to let her live with Alvin, but there were two copies,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: one written in Rachel's hand and one written in Alvin's.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Going through the papers, Rachel remembered, other things, how Alvin
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: encouraged her not to smile when she was with her mom,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: saying if someone photographed her happy, it could be used
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: as evidence against him in court. In every photo from
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: that period with her mother, Rachel is wearing a frown.
• 13:54
  Speaker 6: That's when I started questioning and started to realize that
• 13:58
  Speaker 6: I was coached or brainwashed.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: It made sense. For most of her adult life, Rachel
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: had had no memory of loving her mom. It was
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: only after her mother's death when she found mother's day
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: and birthday card she'd written to Judy when she was
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: very small that Rachel realized she had I love you, mommy.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: She'd written I love you so much, but with Al's
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: constant coaching, it had all been stamped out. The final
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: thing John and Rachel found that night were those psychological
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: reports Alvin at Rachel submit to just before the final
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: custody hearing. In them, you see Alvin's scripting bear out.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: One report notes that Rachel kept repeating, quote, I want
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: to live with my father. He loves me. My mother
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: doesn't love me. The report notes that she said this
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: with quote grim determination. They also uncovered one particular report
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: that night that was longer than any of the others.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: It was the only one that evaluated both John and Rachel,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: and in this it carried the most weight and what
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: shocked John and Rachel most of all, my dad.
• 15:13
  Speaker 5: Clearly ed.
• 15:15
  Speaker 6: Edited it and then she rewrote it with the edits
• 15:19
  Speaker 6: and submitted that rewrite.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Is that ethical as a social work?
• 15:24
  Speaker 6: No no, no, no, no, no no no no it's
• 15:26
  Speaker 6: not no oh no no no. No one should ever
• 15:31
  Speaker 6: let anybody else, especially their client, edit their reports. No,
• 15:36
  Speaker 6: it's it's really bad.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: The report was written by a social worker named Joyce.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Alvin's edits to Joyce's report made the language more emphatic.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: For example, where Joyce had written that Rachel was hesitant
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: when it came to judy, Alvin changed it to say
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: she was fearful. In another spot, he added that Rachel
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: wanted to blot out any memory of ever having been
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: away from him.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: Honestly, I mean it was horrifying, you know, just to
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: see the detailed notes, to see the edited drafts, the
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: crossouts and his handwriting, and then the final version that
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: was submitted to the courts with his edits in there,
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: like there's no question in what happened.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: The report concludes with a recommendation, the strongest one of
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: any report and the only recommendation of its kind.
• 16:37
  Speaker 6: She recommended that I live with him, and that my
• 16:41
  Speaker 6: brother lived with my mom.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: John and Rachel's separation came down to a decision dictated
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: by Alvin and signed off on by Joyce. How was
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Alvin able to exert this kind of power over a
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: social worker, someone who was supposed to be an impartial outsider.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: John and Rachel couldn't understand it. But that night, when
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Rachel googled Joyce, she was shocked to realize that Joyce
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: had been an impartial outsider at all. Joyce was a
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: family friend. Rachel recognized Joyce as the kind, dark haired
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: woman whose house she visited as a child. Rachel would
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: bring her cello over to play music with Joyce in
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: her family, which means that, on top of everything else
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: wrong with the report, Joyce should never have been the
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: person to write it in the first place.
• 17:32
  Speaker 6: She was like the one person in my life as
• 17:35
  Speaker 6: a kid who could have said, Hey, I think you're
• 17:40
  Speaker 6: coaching her and this isn't right. Why are we going
• 17:44
  Speaker 6: to try and split these kids up? She was the
• 17:47
  Speaker 6: one who could have said something.
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: In nineteen seventy Joyce recommended that my sister go with
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: my father and that I go with my mother. And
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: that's what happened, and that dictated the course of my life.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: What happened?
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: This is the question that's been nagging at John and
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Rachel since they found the report. How could this have happened?
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: And so John and Rachel want to find Joyce and
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: ask her. What I don't fully understand, though, is what
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: I have to offer. Rachel and John are both practicing
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: therapists themselves. They're more than capable of posing difficult questions
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: and Although I play a mental health semi professional, semi
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: convincingly on a podcast, I'm not actually one at all.
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: What can I do well?
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: So?
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: I have had to advocate for myself my entire life
• 18:45
  Speaker 6: from a very young age, and nobody advocated for me
• 18:49
  Speaker 6: or my brother, and so if you could help me
• 18:53
  Speaker 6: with this, it would be a healing piece for me
• 18:58
  Speaker 6: that somebody else advocated for me.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: After the break in search of Joyce, I find Joyce
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: the social workers facebook and email address right away, and
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: I message to ask if she'd be willing to speak
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: with John and Rachel about their parents' custody battle. I
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: don't hear back for several weeks, and during this time,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: my thoughts keep returning to Alvin and the video of
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: his session with Ted, the meek, buttoned up patient.
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: Toucher toucher oh Jack.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Throughout, Alvin tries to help Ted release his bottled up feelings.
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: I can do this better than you.
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: Watch me.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, right, okay, okay.
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: What's happening inside me?
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Right now?
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: Over my chest?
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: I'm having a who It felt like a brand of
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: extreme empathy in the first viewing, now feels like something else.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna put my arms around you.
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: I'm doing better than you. Huh yeah.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Now it feels as though Alvin is scripting the outcome.
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: If you want to cry, go ahead, good, it's okay,
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: go on.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: At one point, Alvin tells Ted to cry.
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: Ted, it's okay, go ahead, cry, go it's all right.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Ted is not anywhere close to crying.
• 20:24
  Speaker 5: Ted, you're starting to cry.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Go ahead, let yourself, let yourself go on. It's all right,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: go on, do it. Ted is not starting to cry,
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: but Alvin insists, Ted, you're on the verge of crying.
• 20:34
  Speaker 8: Do it.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: No, cry, go.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Ahead, And then a tear appears in the corner of
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Ted's eye. It rolls down his cheek. It's as though
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Alvin has conjured it into being through sheer force of
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: his own will.
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: Good for you, Good for you, great, great, okay now.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: The video is a part of a series produced by
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: the American Psychological Association intended to showcase prestigious psychologists in session.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: The way the series works is that, for privacy reasons,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: the patients are portrayed by actors. As the credits were,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I learned that while Alvin the therapist is Alvin the therapist,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Ted the patient is actually Bob the actor.
• 21:17
  Speaker 9: It was a quick shoot. There wasn't a rehearsal per se.
• 21:19
  Speaker 9: We just kind of went in and improvised.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: This is Bob, and performance wise, Bob is done at all.
• 21:26
  Speaker 9: Chuggled swords, cracked whips, eaten fire. I've done for ten years.
• 21:30
  Speaker 9: I did a stage hypnosis show.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Bob is a regular renaissance man in that he also
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: worked at a renaissance fair. When Bob showed up to
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: film that day, he was asked to improvise some sort
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: of marital problem that Alvin could help solve by bringing
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: his method to bear. I asked Bob if he found
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Alvin's behavior domineering, but Bob doesn't recall much. There is
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: one thing, though, that Bob does still recall, even thirteen
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: years later. It seems Bob wasn't Alvin's first choice of patient.
• 22:01
  Speaker 9: He had had someone else do it before. I think
• 22:03
  Speaker 9: it was an African American lady and it didn't go
• 22:06
  Speaker 9: the way it needed to do.
• 22:07
  Speaker 10: You know what I mean?
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Can you elaborate?
• 22:10
  Speaker 9: He showed it to me briefly.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Bob describes the video Alvin showed him before they started
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: filming that day. In it, the setup was the same
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: as it was for Bob shoot. Alvin was in an armchair,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: his legs up on an ottoman, except this time in
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: the armchair beside him was the actress. Like Bob, the
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: actress in the video had been asked to come up
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: with a marriage problem, but in doing so, the actress
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: went to a darker place than Alvin anticipated, describing a
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: husband who was vicious and cruel. Nonetheless, Alvin tried to
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: offer counsel.
• 22:44
  Speaker 9: He was saying things like when he behaves in this way,
• 22:47
  Speaker 9: can you be playful about it? And the actress said
• 22:50
  Speaker 9: things like when he calls me names, suggesting that he
• 22:54
  Speaker 9: might be in some ways borderline, at the very least
• 22:56
  Speaker 9: verbally abusive.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: It seemed there was the way the actress was given
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: to talking about an abusive relationship, and then there was
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: the way that Alvin preferred her to talk about one.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: And so the actress was replaced and Bob shown her
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: video to illustrate what Alvin did not want.
• 23:12
  Speaker 10: It's you know. I got the message, I guess.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Still, not having received a response from Joyce, I decide
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: to mail a letter, and just a few days later
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: I find an email in my inbox. In it, Joyce
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: tells me She's not sure how much help she can be.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: She reminds me that it has been fifty years, but
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: she says she's willing to try. She concludes the email
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: by saying, please feel free to contact me if you wish. Joyce, Hello, Hello,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: I think your sister's here too.
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: Here we are well.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: The last time John and Rachel saw Joyce they were children.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: They're now in their fifties and sixties. Because of the pandemic,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: the meeting between Rachel, John, and Joyce will have to
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: take place over Zoom. John and Rachel joined first from
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: their respective homes. So how are you guys feeling today?
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Uh?
• 24:30
  Speaker 6: Quite anxious? Actually, what about your brother John?
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: I'm more nervous than I thought I would be.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: John is seated in a chair, his posture upright. Rachel
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: is sitting back on a couch. Go ahead and talk
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: a little bit. What did you have for breakfast?
• 24:47
  Speaker 6: I had yogurt and blueberries.
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, me too.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: I can see the Joyce is in the Zoom waiting
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: room waiting. Back in my day, a waiting room had
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff to keep you occupied, like lukewarm
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: water you could drink from a paper cup or a
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: twenty year old copy of Oat. But now waiting rooms
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: are so metaphysical there's nothing to do with them. I
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: suggest we let Joyce in. Okay, Yeah, okay, okay, yeah,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: let's do it. Joyce appears on the screen wearing a
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: bright blue sweater and a colorful ascot that gives her
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: the affect of a fun grandmother. Standing beside Joyce is
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: a middle aged man who I assume is her son.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: He's helping her get set up.
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: Hello.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Hello, Joyce and her son frown at the computer. It
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: seems they're having sound issues. There's a long moment in
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: which we all look at each other in silence, and
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: then hello, Hi. Joyce settles into an armchair. Well do
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: you all look familiar to each other?
• 25:59
  Speaker 6: No, well it's been a long time. I'm Rachel.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: Hi Joyce, Hi, Rachel.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: Hi, I am John.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: You're John, So Joyce, do you uh?
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: I know?
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: John and Rachel are curious about just how much you remember,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: maybe maybe virtually nothing.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: So I wasn't clear what what I can do for you.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: I'm certainly willing to try. So.
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: I think what we're remembering from that time, or what
• 26:33
  Speaker 6: we know, is that my dad and my mom were
• 26:36
  Speaker 6: in a very I don't know if you remember a
• 26:38
  Speaker 6: bitter custody battle, and there were so many court battles,
• 26:45
  Speaker 6: and one of the reports was done by you, So
• 26:50
  Speaker 6: we wanted to talk to you about that and find
• 26:52
  Speaker 6: out what you remembered about that.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Joyce inhales to clenched teeth, shakes her head.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: Oh, I really don't know what happened.
• 27:07
  Speaker 6: We wanna we think. I think our father influenced kind of
• 27:12
  Speaker 6: everybody he met in a very heavy handed way.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: Yes, I would certainly agree with that. You know, saying
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: al was heavy handed is an understatement.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Joyce's husband at the time was a colleague of Alvin's.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: That's how she first came to know Alvin. He and
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: her husband both taught in the local university psychology department.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Joyce says her husband would always come home with al Stories.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: Acting out at meetings and shouting out inappropriate stuff. So
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: he was very, very controlling. He took control of any situation,
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: any social situation. One party at my house, he was
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: a guest along with the other members of the psych department,
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: and he just took control of the whole evening. And
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: of course the more people drank, the more intense that
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: God I think the focus was on people's dreams and
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: dream analysis.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: For Alvin a Freudian, this meant exploring each partygoer's dream
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: for hidden sexual desires that he Alvin could then expound
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: upon in a room full of colleagues. Joyce relates the
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: anecdote to illustrate the kind of guy Alvin was, but
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: John hears something else in the story, So you all
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: socialized well. John is trying to remind Joyce that she
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: was Alvin's friend, that writing the report wasn't appropriate, but
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: the implication goes over Joyce's head.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: The department wasn't a big one, and it was close knit,
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: and everybody got together. They you know, Friday, what do
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: you do? You hang out with the people that you
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: know best, and that was in the department. What kinds
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: of questions did you have that I can help with
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: or that I might answer or speculate about.
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: You don't remember evaluating us, You don't remember having that role.
• 29:30
  Speaker 6: No, I guess I'm curious if you remember, because I
• 29:37
  Speaker 6: would have said also, like I want to live with
• 29:39
  Speaker 6: my dad and I love living here. But I was
• 29:41
  Speaker 6: coached like don't smile if someone takes a picture of
• 29:46
  Speaker 6: you with your mother.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: Oh, Rachel, Oh, Rachel, could you see that at all? No,
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: I I this is all news to me.
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: Did you do other custody evaluations? Was that a part
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: of your practice?
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: That may have been one of the first ones, And
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: it was at his requests that I did that.
• 30:11
  Speaker 11: Initially, it was at Al's request saying, oh, yeah, yeah,
• 30:18
  Speaker 11: do you remember any thoughts or feelings that you know,
• 30:24
  Speaker 11: maybe it's not appropriate for me to evaluate someone that
• 30:27
  Speaker 11: I socialize.
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: No, no, not really, because this was in the beginning
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: of our arrival, and so we weren't really socializing at
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: that point.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: At that point, Joyce and her husband had just arrived
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: in town. While her husband taught at the university, Joyce
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: did not. She hoped to someday, but she was still
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: fairly young, and at the time the only women in
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: the psych department were grad students and secretaries. So in Alvin,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: this larger than life figure came asking for a favor,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: it felt hard to say no.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: He was chair of that program, and you know, I
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: was new in town. I'm a people pleaser, so I
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: think that that added to my vulnerability to Al.
• 31:20
  Speaker 8: Well.
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: I want to make sure that you know that your
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: report recommends that we're split up.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Joyce takes off her glasses. She places them in her lap.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: Oh wow, I am sorry. I am I never would
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: have done something like that, and hearing that I did
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: makes makes me feel terrible.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: So that's a that's a surprise to you.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: It's total surprise, and it's totally against everything I believe.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: It's horrifying. I don't know what prompted it or what
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: precipitated it. I don't know. I'm sorry.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: But of course there's more.
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: You know, we can see al crossing out words and
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: phrases that you wrote and then rewriting them in stronger language,
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: and then it's that stronger language that's in the final report.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: I'm appalled by that. I hate to keep repeating myself,
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: but I am truly sorry that that happened and had
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: terrible consequences. I have a stomach ache. I feel terrible
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: that it turned out that way. I feel awful that
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: I had a pardon that or that I'm perceived to
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: have had it. Well, I did, I mean, I can't
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: say I didn't if I wrote it.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: This is something Joyce does a few times. She'll start
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: to say something like if I did this, but then
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: she'll correct herself. Rachel has the report standing by to
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: hold to the camera so Joyce can see it for
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: herself see her own signature, but that never becomes necessary.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: Even though she doesn't remember, Joyce believes John and Rachel,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: and so she doesn't cop out or quivocate.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: If I if I did something like that, or because
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: I did something like that, I'm so sorry you guys.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: There's anything I can do to mitigate in some small way.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: And it means a lot that you say that.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, And it's not just words, it's it's heartfelt.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: It's really heartfelt.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Do you do you have any idea why he might
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: have turned to you well.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: To control the outcome. I think he was more comfortable
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: with women because he could push them around.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Did you feel used by him?
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: Well, I guess he was using me, so yeah.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Joyce says. The relationship with Alvin was short lived. The
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: end came soon after Joyce invited Alvin and a few
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: of his psychologist friends to join her private practice. They
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: accepted and all began working out of her office.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: And we did that for a while, and then they
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: decided that it wasn't appropriate to have a social worker
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: in the practice. So they asked me to leave, and
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: it was at Elsin's instigation. What he said to me was,
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: it's not that you're incompetent. It's just that I don't
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: know that you're competent. And you know, for me to
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: remember this fifty years later, that's a lot, doesn't it.
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: So this was him kicking you out of the practice,
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: My practice, my practice, your practice.
• 35:27
  Speaker 6: I hear you like, very very very fondly.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: Well, you're kind, you're kind, you're kind.
• 35:34
  Speaker 6: You are a nice lady. You're a good person. And
• 35:37
  Speaker 6: I see that now too. I mean, I had every
• 35:39
  Speaker 6: reason to feel that way.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Rachel will later tell me that because of the way
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: her dad brainwashed her, she often can trust her memories.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: So it feels good that her memory of Joyce is correct.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Joyce is nice, but Rachel is nice too, and consent
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: so badly Joyce is feeling.
• 35:58
  Speaker 6: You know, I think my dad was so controlling, and
• 36:03
  Speaker 6: I have to think that my dad coerced you and
• 36:09
  Speaker 6: really pressured you to do that.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: You know, hopefully you can tell Rachel and I are okay.
• 36:29
  Speaker 6: We're really good parents. We're close to our children. We
• 36:32
  Speaker 6: did not replicate any of this.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's wonderful. I'm so glad to hear that.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: And I've been with my wife thirty seven years and
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: thankfully now you know, Rachel and I came back together
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: on our own and I'm very close with my sister.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Damage done to us can often become damage we do
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: to others, and on it goes. But watching John and Rachel,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: I'm struck by the way they're breaking that cycle, not
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: just in their lives, but right here in the room.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Well zoom room.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: Just to be clear, Joyce, I really appreciate what you're saying,
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: and really really important to me that others just own
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: and acknowledge their role in any dynamic, in any interaction.
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: If they do that, I'm good. And al never I
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: tried in different ways, he would never own any culpability, responsibility, anything.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: When John first became a psychologist, he'd see Alvin at
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: various conferences, where Alvin was received as a star. For John,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: it always occasioned a weird mix of pride in his
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: father's career and bitterness over his personal rejection. At one conference,
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: John attended Alvin's lecture in the hope of forcing his
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: father to talk to him. Alvin saw John in the audience,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: but afterwards made him wait on along with all his
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: adoring fans. Eventually, John grew frustrated and left.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: It's one of the mysteries of my life how he
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: justified or rationalized to himself, you know, having a son
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: and supposedly loving him and then just cutting him off
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: and rejecting him for the rest of your life. I
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: don't I can't fathom that at all. There was an
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: email exchange over seven or eight months where I endeavored
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: to answer that question, that lifelong question of you know why,
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: and he just kept trying to sell me his books,
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: and you know it became this refrain, have you read
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: my book? Have you read my book? And I'd say,
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: if you would like me to read your book, send
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: me a copy and I will read it. No, he
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: wants me to buy a book. He wanted me to
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: buy a book.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: In his emails to John, Alvin wrote that it was
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: a sophomoric myth that a parent should seek relationships with
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: one's child. I do not accept silly pop psychology truisms,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: he wrote. Near the end of Alvin's life, John wanted
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: to make one last effort to see his father so
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Alvin could meet his grandkids, but Rachel counseled John not
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: to go. She said that Alvin would refuse to see
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: him and was still so full of anger that he
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: might even call the police. After his death, Alvin left
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: behind a will with a section listing the names of
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: those who wronged him. Each person was to receive a
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: single dollar. Among them was John.
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: Back.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: When I spoke to Al's disciple, Howard, he told me
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: that al was bedridden at the end of his life,
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: yet he was still focused on his therapeutic method just
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: before he passed away.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: When I visited him, he said, Howard, I'm working on
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: becoming more of an optimal person. I'm just doing it now.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: And he was like so.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Energetic, and do you from your perspective, I mean, did
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: he achieve that kind of like optimal personhood?
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: She said he had.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: When I raised the subject of Alvin's relationship with his
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: kids and how that connected to his optimal self, Howard
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: says he can't really speak to that. Alvin didn't bring
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: up his kids much.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of stuff that goes on, sometimes good
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: and bad, and you know, that's just what happens in life.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: We live, and we adjust and do what we have
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: to do. But I don't think whatever happens at a
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: certain point in someone's life should define them for who
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: they are as a person overall.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: Can you come back in a little bit, honey.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: A little girl barge's into Joyce's room. She's wearing a
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: lacy blue dress that's either a nightgown or a Cinderella costume.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: I'll be with you in a little bit. Thank you.
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: That's my six year old granddaughter.
• 41:20
  Speaker 6: Thank you.
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: We're sheltering in place together.
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's nice.
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: I'm very lucky, Joyce. I'm so appreciative. Thank you, Yeah,
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: thank you.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: One can believe one is optimal, just as one can
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: believe one is fluent in French, a talented singer, a
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: good therapist. But the only way to really know is
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: through one's relationship with others, the ones who love us,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: who guide us, who let us know when we wandered astray.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: For some realizing your optimal self does not occur in
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: spite of other people, but because of them.
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: My son is getting married in the backyard. I'm looking
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: at a few.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: Weeks and congratulations, thank you.
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: It'll be a very small, socially distanced.
• 42:48
  Speaker 8: Now that the furnitures returning to it's goodwill home, now
• 42:57
  Speaker 8: that the last month's rent is skiming with the damaged
• 43:02
  Speaker 8: po take this moment to the so.
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: If we meant to flee.
• 43:09
  Speaker 8: To from the last.
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: Accident and clean.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: This episode of Heavyweight was produced by senior producer Khalila
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Holt along with Stevie Lane and me Jonathan Goldstein. Special
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg, PJ Vote, Mohemy mcgaucher,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Nabil Cholimpot, and Jackie Cohen. Bobby Lord mixed the episode
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Samson and
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found on our website,
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: Gimbletmedia dot com slash Heavyweight. Our theme song is by
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: The Weaker Thans courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: Twitter at Heavyweight or email us at Heavyweight at Gimletmedia
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: dot com. This is the last episode of the season,
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: but do not fear there's still more Heavyweight to come.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: We're doing three check in episodes in December, exclusive to Spotify,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: but absolutely free and very easy to access. I'll be
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: joined by producers Khalila and Stevie. There will be a
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: conversation with best selling writer Curtis Sittenfeld, and some segments
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: that take advantage of the music on Spotify's platform. So
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: these are things we couldn't do anywhere else, and we're
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: pretty excited about that and we hope you'll find it
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: exciting too. See you in December.
• 44:28
  Speaker 8: Oh Son in an empty, Son in an out deal