Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Medical Misadventure or Manslaughter

Transcript

Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Medical Misadventure or Manslaughter · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. When we grieve, it's
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: not about simply placing our head in our hands and crying.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: It's not about crying out to the heavens why did
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: this happen? There's so many elements to grief that look,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: I could take a couple of hours in my own
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: way of talking about it, but I do know this.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: We as humans are tactile. And what I mean is
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: that in order to confirm something in our minds, particularly
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: when it comes to death, there is this indwelling part
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: of us that wants to confirm it. We want to
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: know that that person that we love is in fact deceased,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: and very basic level, the only way that we can
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: confirm that is if we touch them. They don't respond
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: when we touch them. They are cold, and if you've
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: never touched the dead, there's no other kind of cold
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: like the cold of the dead. That's why they use
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: terms in literature like the icy fingers of death. It's
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: something different, but it is confirmatory for us. And I
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: cannot imagine how hard it must be when you are
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: a parent and you lose a child that you are
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: not allowed to hold. Today, we're going to talk about
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: a case just like this. We're family, We're prevented from cradling.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: They're sweet deceased angel. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: is body bags, Dave some stuff that we talk about
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: on body bags. It's easy for me to get caught
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: up in the science. That's always been a way as
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: a death investigator. I've protected myself and I've written about
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: this before. I wrote about it in my memoir. If
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I could surround myself with the science that all of
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: the horror that I bore witness to, it somehow shielded me.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: It shielded my mind and my soul. But every now
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: and then there's a case that comes across our desk
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: that really makes you question the world that we live in.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: And today is a case such as this, and the
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: subject of this case his name was Isaiah, and it
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: is absolutely heartbreaking what we have found out.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: A young couple, Jessica Ross and Trevion Isaiah Taylor. They
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: are the expecting parents. The pregnancy goes like normal full term.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: I wonder how much their ages played into the doctors
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: and nursing staff paying attention to them. But here's what happened.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: The baby's parents Jessica Ross and Trevion Isaiah Taylor are
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: twenty and twenty one years old. She's carried the baby
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: full term. They go in as delivery time. She's in
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: full labor at eight forty that night, she's in full labor.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: At eight forty that night, problems start happening. It was
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: a regular vaginal delivery and the shoulders got stuck. They
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: had a fetal heartbeat monitor and the monitor showed by
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: nine twenty six, the heart rate showed abnormal and it
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: began to decrease from nine twenty six on the whole
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: time mom is pushing, the baby is stuck. Now there's
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: a term for baby's shoulders being stuck, but in this
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: particular case, the doctor chose a different path than what
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: is recommended.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: That's the thing that this condition, and it's not like
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: this doesn't happen all right, it happens regularly. It's called
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: shouldered dystotia. And essentially what that means is that once
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: the child has begun to crown and has the head
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: has begun to move down the birth canal, the width
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: of the shoulders cannot be accommodated by the birth canal,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: and so it's a real struggle, particularly in this point.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: And this is a critical moment in TOM And there's
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: a procedure that many of our female listeners will be
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: familiar with that involves delivery, and it's called an episiotomy.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: An episiotomy is when the delivery doctor, the obgyn, actually
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: makes a small incision and it's inferior to the birth
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: canal and this provides for wider opening. This is commonly done.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: This is not something that is rare. It's not something
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: that hey, we need to call in a super duper
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: specialist to have this done, assuming at this point, because
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: we don't know more than this at this time, that
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: an episiotomy was performed in order to accommodate because they
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: were present the baby was presenting with dystocia, and they
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: were having no success whatsoever. And it was only that
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: last moment where I think that the doctor began to
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: panic because man, she's a pl and a tremendous amount
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: of pressure here to the head to try to deliver
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: the baby.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: The amount of pressure and manipulation, head, neck, bones, broken, skull,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: things were broken on this baby that should never have
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: been touched like this.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: And suction, Yeah, and suction is common. It's and for
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: those that haven't seen it, there is a large suction cup,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: if you will, that is applied to the top of
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: the head and this aids in the delivery as the
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: baby's being pulled forward. And this is a very gentle
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: procedure that's taking place, and delivery seems quite violent, but
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: it's going to happen. It's natural. And these professionals that
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: are guiding the mother through this process, you're coaching her
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: to push. She's been coached to push, and this is
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: done over and over and man This labor went on
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: for some time.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: She was pushing at eight forty and even though the
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: abnervbal feedtl heartbe started showing in nine twenty six, she
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: continued to push. The doctor continued using traction and suction
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: on the baby, using manual manipulation to try to pull
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: the baby out. It wasn't until eleven forty nine that
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: they did an emergency C section and the baby's body
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: was delivered at twelve eleven am, but the baby's head
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: had to be delivered vaginally. The baby was decapitated. Now,
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: was the baby decapitated by the doctor or is there
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: another explanation for how a baby could die and be
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: beheaded inside the womb in uterow.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's something that would be examined in a
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: post delivery, postpartum state. Because if you have, and I've
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: worked over the course of my career, I've worked a
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: lot of stillbirths. It all depends on the jurisdiction that
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: you're in as to whether or not they're going to
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: be reported to the corner of the medical examiner.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Okay, now you mentioned stillbirth. That's something a lot of
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: us are familiar with. As shocking as it is, I
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: don't know how you possibly explain it. But is there
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: a difference between what we're talking about here where we
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: have a baby, how is the baby going to look
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: and that is delivered this way versus a still birth?
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Well, with stillbirths, there is many times, not every time,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: please don't misinterpret this, but many times there will be
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: an awareness on the part of the practitioners and certainly
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: family members that the child has died in utero, which
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: means within the mother's body. And it's a very sad
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: event that occurs, and mother is still going to deliver,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: and many times they deliver vaginally, but other times they
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: deliver these babies by sea section, and so what happens
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: is is that when you have a still birth, the
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: big question from a scientific standpoint that has to be
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: asked is why did this precious little one die? And
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: you have to have that answer because we're talking about
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: a mom and daddy that are twenty one and twenty
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: This is at the beginning of their lives essentially, and
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: you know that potentially they won't have a their children.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: They might not con see this now I've lost a child,
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: it's hard to see yourself having another child. But with
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: in the case of a stillbirth, for instance, you want
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: to do a post mortem examination on the baby's remains
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: in a stillbirth because maybe there are some indicators developmental indicators,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: you know, relative to the growth or the development that
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: has gone on as a child has developed in the womb.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: So you have to examine that in a controlled environment
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: in the morgue, and generally the hospital pathologists will do
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: that and it's kind of a standard standard thing for
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: silburth's to be autopsy now in a case like this,
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: because if I remember, they had a heartbeat, so this
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: is not something that they would have had prior knowledge of,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: Like it's not like they would come to them and say, listen,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: we're sorry to inform you, but in this examination prior
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: to birth, we were not detecting a heartbeat. This is
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: very common for and I still remember to this day.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: You're at the doctor's all and every time that you
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: have a sonogram done, it's such an exciting event because
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: you can hear the baby's heartbeat and it lets you
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: know that this precious little life is about to enter
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: into your life. And so there's no indicator here that
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: this child was dead in utero. So that brings us
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: to potential conclusion here that the events surrounding the death
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: are direct result of this pressure that was applied to
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: the child during delivery. And that's a horrible thing to consider. Here.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: You have mama that's in this it's a precious time,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: but she's very vulnerable. She's trying everything that she can
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: do to deliver this baby. She's being directed to deliver
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: the baby, she's being told to push, and this has
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: gone on for a protracted period of time. And sometime
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: into this you've already got this abnormality that's occurring with
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: the fetal heartbeat, and you know something is wrong, but
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: yet you persist in this, and I think sometimes judgments
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: get clouded, but there has to be a switch that
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: is flipped at some point in time where you understand
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: that the more force that is utilized, you're going to
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: do damage to a child. And listen, you've mentioned for
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: the forceps. There are any number of stories out there
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: where babies have been blinded. You have misshapen heads, that
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: sort of thing, and sometimes the skull. And this is
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: what makes it very this particular case so fascinating in
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: one sense, is that they're talking about the fracturing of bones.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: And do you realize how much force has to be
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: applied to fracture a baby's bone Because the bones themselves,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: both in the skull, there's not this fusion that has
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: necessarily this. They don't have these ossified bones like we
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: do as adults. They're very malleable. This fracturing has taken
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: place there and also in the neck, so that means
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: that tension is being applied, and it's being applied to
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: the degree that there has been. Unfortunately, a separation in
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: this particular case led to a decapitation. David, I have
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: a distinct memory of being present when my first child
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: was born in this precious child that's there, and suddenly
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: it dawns on you. You look around the room and you
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: you want somebody to tell you what's the next step.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: At this point, what do I do? I don't want
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: to do harm my big clumsy self, you know, and
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, what do I do? You know, what do
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: I do to guarantee that this child is going to
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: continue to survive outside the womb?
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Well, I read this and saw that at eight forty
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: she was pushing, and nine twenty six, the fetal heartbeat
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: is going crazy. By eleven forty nine, they finally take
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: the baby back for a C section, but it's already over.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: The baby is born body only by C section. Vaginally,
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: she delivers a head. But the nurses and doctor involved
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: in this birth, Joe, they actually prevented the mother and
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: father from knowing what was going on. I don't know
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: how they did it, but I do know how crazy
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: it is in a room when you've got a lot
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: of confusion. Of course, you've got a sea section going on.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: The dad's not going to be in there for that,
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: it's just going to be the mother. She's surrounded with
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: nurses and a doctor, so I could see how they
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: would do this in such a way that mom and
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: dad do not see the baby, they don't know what
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: has happened. You and I know more about what happened
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: to that baby being beheaded than they did at the time,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: and this is their baby. Nobody told them. I was
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: asking you about this because I was trying to understand
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: what was going on, and You've brought up a term
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: called maceration or macerated, and I was googling it when
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: you were telling me what it was because I don't
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: understand what we're actually physically dealing with.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: That's the incredible part, and we have to step back
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: just for a second. Maceration can occur in any number
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: of different events, but when you're talking about with a
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: mother that delivers a child, particularly stillborn child that is macerated,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: there will be it's almost like it's evidence of decomposition
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: in utero, and so it's almost confirmatory that the child
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: is dead. And maceration is also used sometimes by some
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: physicians to describe severe trauma where something is essentially broken down.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: You'll hear them use the term a macerated liver sometimes
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: or a macerated kidney, and it's kind of a broadly
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: used term many times, particularly in forensic pathology. But that's
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: why it's so important. I think that once this occurs,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: an event like this, you need more answers than simply
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: a hospital staff that tells you your baby didn't make it,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: or whatever the case might be. And it's something that
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: really trusts me. And you know me well enough, Dave,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: that what I'm about to say, it takes a lot
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: to make my skin crawl, but this information about the
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: presentation of the child's remains, this really does make my
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: skin crawl. And remember what I told you earlier about
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: that tactile thing that if you're a mama, you want
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: to touch your baby. You want to look at your baby.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: You want to see the fingers and the toes. You
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: want to rub that little tommy. You want to pat
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: the head, kiss the forehead, all those things. From what
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: I'm understanding, that wasn't allowed here.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: The shocking truth, Joe, is that this young couple was
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: lied to, and that's why there's a lawsuit. You mentioned touching.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: You know, they do a thing now when a mother
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: gives birth, and it's called skin on skin time. It's
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: a bonding time for the mother and the baby to
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: just the two of them, skin on skin, and it's
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: a very sweet thing. And that's all this family wanted.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: You were talking about that, I'm just thinking what they
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: were denied. But not only were they denied. They went
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: to the hospital expecting to have a baby, and they
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: came home with a not even a body. They actually
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: were lied to. And then when they said I've got
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: to see my baby, I know my baby's dead. I've
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: got to see my baby. Then staff they wrapped the
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: baby up in such a way with using blankets and whatnot,
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: so that the mother and father of this baby, baby Isaiah,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: did not know that it had been decapitated. They did
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: not know that. Nobody at the hospital told them the
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: condition of their baby, Joe and the medical profession. Would
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: that not set off every alarm bel there is within
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: the hospital? This has just happened. A baby was decapitated.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: This mother gave birth to a headless body by C
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: section vaginally. Ahead I mean, isn't there going to be
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: an examination right now, right here, calling in experts. We've
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: got to know what happened.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: You would think so. And I've heard a couple of
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: stories relative to this, and I'm sure that as the
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: lawsuit develops, will hear more. But one version has it
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: that mom and day daddy were allowed only to view
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: the child through glass. And then on top of that,
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: the lawsuit actually alleges that, and remember we're talking about
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: a twenty and twenty one year old mama and daddy,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: they were directed to forego an autopsy and to have
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: the baby cremated.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Joe, it's even worse than forego the autopsy. They were
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: told to their face they wanted an autopsy. We want
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: to know what happened to our baby. And the hospital said, well,
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: you're not entitled to a free autopsy. You don't qualify
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: for that.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to dismiss the trauma of a miscarriage,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: however you're talking about. And I've seen pictures of the
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: mama displaying her belly and smiling. It's the sweetest thing.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: You've got a child that has gone to term, Dave,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: and you have no explanation as to why they have died,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: and they're telling you, no, you can't have an autopsy.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: So let me go a step further with this in
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: my medical legal forensics mind. So, doctor, how are you
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: going to sign the certificate? What are you going to
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: put down as your fatal diagnosis. You know, when you
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: look at a death certificate, there's under a cause, there's
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: like three of them. You have the primary, and then
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: there's a secondary, and then there's the third below that,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: and they'll list those and they're bulleted like that one, two, three,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: and then of course you have the manner. The manner
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: is you know, one of the five and I can
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: tell you what it ain't. It ain't a natural death.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: This is not a natural death. And one of the
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: things that's always fascinated me when working in the medical
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: legal community, when things happen at hospitals and they are
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: at the hand of staff at a hospital, it's like
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: there's this cushion that is created. And they use this term,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: and some people may have heard it, that's called dig
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: This a medical misadventure, a medical misadventure describes it's kind
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: of a very soft thing to say, oh, it was
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: a misadventure that led to the death of a child,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: or you will have these stories about where some physician
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: amputates the wrong limb. That's a medical misadventure. But you know,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: in the case of a death, there are things that
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: occur while people are on the job and they bring
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: about the death of another human being. Now, I guess
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: you could call it an accident in the world of
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: medical legal death investigation, but you know what, a DA
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: would call it manslaughter. Here's the thing about general public
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: when it comes to death. They don't know anything. They
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: don't and they shouldn't. I don't want the general public
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: to know a lot. I'm not saying that in a
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: nefarious way. There's people like me that have to deal
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: with death day in and day out. If you're a
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: twenty one year old and a twenty year old mom
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: and daddy, you shouldn't be thinking about death. It should
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: be the color of the nursery, or do I have
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: the right car seat, or do I have enough diapers.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: It's very frustrating, it truly is. And so when you're
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: in that position, you know who you're dependent upon. You're
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: dependent upon the medical staff to give you the correct advice.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: What's the next step that we take. People think about
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: funeral homes. They rarely have ever think about autopsies. But
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: in this particular case, Dave, a post Mormon examination is
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: in fact required.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that. I thought it was on the
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: parents to demand it.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Let's say, for instance, you have stillbirth. The corner or
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: the medical examiners are not going to do in most cases,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: is not going to do an autopsy on stillbirth. They're
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: just not. They'll leave that to the hospital pathologists because
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: the hospital has been following the course of treatment. You're attending,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: has been following your course of treatment, so they've got
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: everything on the ready. There there's no indication that nothing
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: nefarious has happened. However, let's just say it plainly, what's
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: the answer here, Well, this case should in fact have
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: been reported to the medical legal authorities, given the nature
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: of what is being stated in the lawsuit, that this
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: is actually what happened, that we had a heartbeat, and
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: now the child is decapitated and deceased, and so the
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: family is being told that, well, you don't qualify for
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: an autopsy, according to the lawsuit, And so they go
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: out and they raise money for it. They cobble together
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: whatever they can. Twenty five hundred bucks is generally, I've
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: seen them go all the way up to five thousand.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: It all depends on how much has to be done
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: for what's referred to as a private autopsy. And there
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: are any number of pathologists out there that can do them.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Most of the time, you can find a hospital pathologist
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: that will do it. You pay them that money, that
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: will do the examination. They'll do all of the microscopic slides.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: If it necessitates some kind of chemistries, they'll have those performed,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: all of that sort of thing. But they have found
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: somebody to do this. And I'm not saying that they're relieved,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: because I have no no way of putting myself in
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: these poor people's minds. But at least I can only
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: imagine at least they think that I'm going to have
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: somebody give me some answers as to what happens. Now.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: I remember the last time that they see this baby,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: the baby has been presented to them wrapped up with
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: its head appearing at least giving the appearance the head
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: is still attached to the body. If this case couldn't
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: be any worse, Dave, it actually gets worse. It truly does.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: And I'm beside myself right now. Just please fill in
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: the blanks for me here and help our friends here
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: understand that are out here listening.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: The hospital told Jessica Ross and Trevion Isaiah Taylor that
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: they did not qualify for a free autopsy, and they
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: encourage them to have the baby cremated. Now, Ross and
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Taylor opted to have a funeral. Isaiah was then sent
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: to a funeral home. But remember, at this point, Ross
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: and Taylor had seen baby Isaiah through a window, and
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: when they saw him, his head had been placed on
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: his body and wrapped with a blanket in such a
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: way to disguise the fact that he had been beheaded.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: So Ross and Taylor don't know their baby has been beheaded.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: It was only after Willie A. Watkins's funeral home notified
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Ross and Taylor that the baby had been decapitated by
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: the way. While the hospital did notify the Medical Examiner's
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Office of baby Isaiah's death. The Medical Examiner's Office says
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: in a statement that they were not aware of the
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: circumstances surrounding the baby's death until they were notified by
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Willie A. Watkins's funeral home. Now, with information from the
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: funeral home, Jessica Ross signs a contract with doctor Jackson
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Gates to do an autopsy of baby Isaiah for twenty
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: five hundred dollars. This is a standard price for an
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: independent autopsy. What is not standard is what happened next.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Jessica Ross and Trevy and Isaiah Taylor were notified by
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: family member that doctor Gates posted an image of their
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: newborn's decapitated head on Instagram.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Doctor Gates claimed the pictures and video of the decapitated
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: baby were for educational purposes and the doctor Gates did
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: not name the baby in the pictures. Attorney Rodrick Edman,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: who is a medical doctor as well as respected trial
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: lawyer and represents Ross and Taylor, he asked the question, quote,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: what educational value is it to anybody to view a
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: picture of a decavitated baby? Unquote?
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: Gates took down the original post after getting a seasoned
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: desist letter, but two days later, two more videos from
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: the newborn's autopsy were published at gates Instagram page, and
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: that included the autopsy of the chest cavity of the
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: child and the cranial cavity of the child. His Instagram page,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: by the way, has several posts from other autopsies that
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: he's conducted. Gates says that he does not disclose the
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: identity of the individuals he posts, but remember, he didn't
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: get permission from Ross and Taylor to post the pictures.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: And video. Edmunds, their attorney, said, what community or country
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: do we live in where somebody can form the words
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: and say it's okay to post photos of a decavitated baby.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: That's filling in the blanks.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Joel. You know, I've talked about how the dead, though
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: they're not regarded as persons any longer, the dead are
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: the most vulnerable among us because the dead, first off,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: you can say anything about the dead you want to,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: and because they can't defend themselves, and that's why there
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: are laws on the books about desecration of human remains,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: abuses of human remains, and this fully qualifies as far
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: as I'm concerned, if we are to believe what has
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: been alleged in this suit and what the family has
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: put forward, because it is the type of thing that
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: would be saw off putting by people in the future
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: that if they're faced with the prospect of wanting to
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: have an autopsy performed on one of their loved ones,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh. You know, you sit there and you think, well,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: is this what happens? Is this the example, the professional
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: example that's put forth because we are trusting you with
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: the most precious thing that we have and literally we
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: have nothing, that we've given everything at this point in time,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: we want to know what happened. And I saw one
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: newspaper headline I think that stated putting salt in a wound,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: which in the old days that was a foreign of torture.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: And I can't It's hard for me to imagine. And
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: I've heard other stories over the years about things that
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: have been done in More's horrible things, but in this
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: particular case, I cannot imagine under any circumstance why you
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: would want to do this. And plus who, who in
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: the hell are you educating? By the way, are you
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Are you at an institution of higher learning? Is that
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: what you're doing? Are you putting this out there just
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: from a salacious standpoint? I mean, I talk about death
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: all the time, but I'm not one that's going to
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: be pushing out these horrific images of something like this
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: that is somebody's precious little one on display for the
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: whole world. And so I really question this. I think
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: that it will be interesting to see how of this develops.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: But I got to say this, Dave, if there is
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: anybody within the sound of my voice that ever offers
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: up prayers, I think that this family in particular has
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: a great need. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Bodybacks