Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #016 Jason Flom with Kirk Bloodsworth

Transcript

#016 Jason Flom with Kirk Bloodsworth · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: My Interview with Kirk Bludsworth originally aired on March twenty,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. Kirk, of course, was a guy who was
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: sentenced to death and was the first DNA death row
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: ex honery in America. His story has to be heard
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: to believe. You may not even be able to believe
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: it after you hear it, but it's a phenomenal story.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: He's a phenomenal guy. I'm happy to say that he
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: had become very close ever since this episode aired, and
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: even I guess before. But today Kirk is an accomplished
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: jewelry artisan. He's an activist, a writer, and a public
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: speaker on issues of wrongful conviction and the death penalty.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: He makes these incredible rings. He has ex hoonnery rings
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: and also death row ex honery rings that so many
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: of the ex honeries wear, And I think you'd have
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: to ask them, but you know, I know how much
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: it means to them to have these beautiful pieces of
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: jewelry made by one of their own. I mean, nobody
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: should ever have to wear that ring, but if you've
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: been through that, I think it's a powerful statement that
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: you can wear in your finger. In twenty nineteen, Kirk
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: was named the interim executive director of Witness to Innocence,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: a group of death row exanneriees who advocate to end
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: the death penalty and have been successful in a number
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: of states already, so their work is phenomenal.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Kirk, you're one of my heroes. Keep up the great work.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: With the police banging on the door, open up.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: The choice to be in that lineup was the last
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: choice I made as a free man.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: A year later, I ended up writing the system, I'm
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: going to be one of those people who everyone in
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: the world is going to think as.
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: A monster or suspect as a monster for the rest
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: of my life, and I'm just going to have to
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: come to peace with that.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Somebody was able to look get my picture in the
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: might have to play in my hanging. They had been
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: told that two prison officers would have to participate in
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: my execution. Now I walked back inside that prison for
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: the last time. Man, all hell broke loose.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: But welcome back to Rafel Conviction with Jason Flamm, our
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: guest today is an extraordinary man.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: Kirk Bloodsworth twice.
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  Speaker 4: He was convicted of the nineteen eighty four murder and
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: sexual assault of nine year old Don Hamilton.
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  Speaker 5: Convicted of murder, he spent nearly nine years in prison,
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: including two on death row.
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  Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety three, DNA testing exonerated him. It was
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: not available at the time of the nineteen eighty four crime.
• 2:52
  Speaker 5: One advocate for abolishing the death penalty is Kirk Noble Bloodsworth,
• 2:56
  Speaker 5: the first person whose capital conviction was ever overturned because NA.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Kirk. Welcome to the show.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: Glad to be here, Jason, thanks for having me.
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: So.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: When I say Kirk is an extraordinary man that takes
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: on a number of meetings, Kirk has the distinction I
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: guess you would call it of being the first DNA
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: X hognery from death row in the United States. Chew
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: on that for a second, right, first DNA exonnery from
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: death row. Now, by way of background, Kirk was a
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: US Marine honorably discharged, had no issues with the law
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: or anything else at the time that he was arrested
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: and ultimately convicted in a gruesome crime sexual assault and
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: murder of a nine year old girl and in his case.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: The police overlooked is a nice way to say it.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: A guy who would have been the obvious suspect and
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: who turned out to be the actual killer. So Kirk,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: let's go back. This story takes place quite a while ago,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: because your life took a horrible turn in nineteen eighty four.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: But let's go back even before that. Give a little context.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: How you grew up. How'd you end up in the Marines.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: Well, my dad was a marine, so you know, you
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: regaled all those stories about Marines and being in a
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: marine corps in Paris, Island.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: So you served for how many years?
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: Four years and two years reserve?
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Right, So you're in the Marines, you come out, and
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: you're back home in Maryland.
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  Speaker 2: Right right.
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  Speaker 3: I want to become a crab fisherman, what we call
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: a woodman on the eastern shore of Maryland where I
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: grew up in a small town called Cambridge. My father
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: was a fisherman, his father, his father and so on,
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: and it goes back a couple hundred years. From what
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: I understand. Everybody in Cambridge pretty much works in and
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: around the water business, whether it's processing, whether it's catching
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: the fish or delivering it. So my father crabbed and
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: fished all his life. And there's even an island in
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: the Chesapea Bay named after my family called Bloodsworth Island.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you had some deep roots and really truly
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: following in your father's footsteps, Like straight down the line.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: There you are back in Maryland, having served your country honorably, discharge, arched,
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  Speaker 1: and your life took the most terrible turn that is
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: really imaginable.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't get worse.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that draws me to
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: this work that I do with the Innocence Project is
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: that I never could and I still can't, and I
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: never will be able to imagine anything worse than being
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: wrongly convicted and sent to prison, much less death row
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: for something you didn't do. And that's exactly what happened
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: to you, exactly, And let's talk about that because it
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: seems so insane that you would become a suspect in
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: a terrible, gruesome crime. I mean, I would think they
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: would be looking for somebody who's got a history. This
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: is not the type of crime that somebody just one
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: day who's living a normal life. It's like I'm going
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: to go out in sexual assault and murder. I'm really
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: a young child, I mean a nine year old. This
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: is this is bad stuff.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: You're just a little girl out playing a game of
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: hide and go seek. On July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty four,
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: and two thirty that afternoon, her friends they were all
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: playing this game, and she was that she couldn't find them,
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: and she came back up to the house.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: According to her aunt that was watching.
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: Her that day, and said, well, go back to the woods.
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: This is in Baltimore County, Maryland. There was a wooded
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: area and there's a pond there called Bethkee's Bond, And
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: she said, you go to the fence line, you holler
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: in the woods and tell them to get out of there,
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: because it's not supposed to be in. Theres a lot
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: of less savory fellas and people in that area. There's
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: a lot of things happening in that wood and she
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: didn't want her back there. So about half an hour later,
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: this was some time around eleven or so in the morning,
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: her friends came back and she did not, and at
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: two thirty that afternoon they found her lying face down
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: in a pile of leaves. Her head was crushed. She
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: was nude from the waist down. Her clothes had been
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: discarded in a tree not far from her body, and
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: she was assaulted with a stick. That is what this
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: honorably just chars Marine was charged with and never seeking
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: a death pellty in my case.
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  Speaker 2: So how did this come about? Why?
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: You my first wife, she was from Baltimore County and
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: she lived in and around the area of where this happened.
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: I had just hitchhiked up there four for July weekend
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: and wanted to be with my wife. You know, she
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: had left Cambridge. She didn't like the waterman's life. It
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: was sixteen hour days all summer. I was hardly home.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: I was crabbing, you know, and working. And she couldn't
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: stand that she was from the city and it's a
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: little different where she was from, and she wanted to
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: go back home, and so I put her on her
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: bus and sent her back home. I just got pining
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: over her, and I wanted to go back. So I
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: hitchhiked with the shoes on my feet, and that was
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: it that I had an old pair of discus shoes
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: and I got dropped off. I got a ride and
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: dropped off, and that was the fourth of July.
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  Speaker 2: Weekend.
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  Speaker 3: I had just got paid from this crab herd. I
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: was working for just a couple hundred bucks because of
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: the season just started and it wasn't really much going
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: on yet. She wasn't really happy to see me, as
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: it turned out, and I was there for less than
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: a month now. When Dawn was found that afternoon on
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: July twenty fifth, a search ensued for this person that
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: was seen by two little boys. Now there was a
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: total of five eyewitnesses in this case who positively identified
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: me as the last person seen with Thawn. I'd never
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: seen her in my life, and I'm going to kind
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: of like bringing us together. So they were searching for
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: a man. The little boys who had seen her. They
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: were fishing in that pond I told you about, and
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: Dawn had come along asked them to help her find
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: her friends. They declined. They had just caught this turtle,
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: they said, and they were more interested in that now.
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  Speaker 3: They described this man as being six foot five, curly,
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  Speaker 3: blonde hair, bushy mustache, tan skin, and skinny. Well, that
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: last description wouldn't never fit me in no kind of way.
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  Speaker 3: Or the blonde hair. My hair was as red as
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: the walls in this room. I have to tell you
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: cyburns down to here. I had a red mustache. I
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: looked like the brawnie man if I put on a
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  Speaker 3: flannel shirt and you sure ain't six five now I'm
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  Speaker 3: six foot tall at best, and I weighed something like
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: two hundred and thirty pounds. Back then, I was a
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: big kid, you know, twenty three years old. So they
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: arrest me on a Thursday. I was in Cambridge. My
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: wife and I had broke up. I came back home.
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  Speaker 3: This was the week of August eighth. I would be
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: arrested the next day, on August ninth, and at two
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: forty five in the morning, waking up on the couch
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: with the police banging on the door.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Open up.
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: It's the Baltimore County Police Department. They said, we have
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: a warrant for arrest of Kirk Bludsworth. And I go
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: to the door myself, lights are shining in my face.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: Step outside, mister Blusboroth. Somebody called me a son of
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: a bitch. And then that was the last time I
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: seen Cambridge, Maryland for about eight years ten months. In
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: nineteen days now they had showed the picture of a polari.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: He took a polard shot of me when they questioned
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  Speaker 3: me the day prior, and they showed it to the
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  Speaker 3: two little boys and they said, well, he looks like
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: the guy, but his hair is too red. They still
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: would not They claimed that it was the picture. There
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: ain't no way you could look at me in nineteen
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  Speaker 3: eighty four and not say that I had red hair.
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: So they called each and every witness in the case.
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: They told them not to watch television. We arrested his suspect.
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: By the way, his name is Kirk Bludsworth. And this
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: was a very high profile case. We're talking a small community.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: Nothing like this ever happens.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, they were coke units.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: Everybody was search of her and understandably though, there was
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: a lot of stuff going on at that time and
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: they didn't have any idea, but they did. They just
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: never went back to check on anybody. There were so
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: many suspects. So they called the witnesses and tell him
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: not to watch TV because we rested suspect and he's
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: going to be on a lineup on Monday. I was
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: arrested on a Thursday. The lineup comes, nobody identify some
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: pick out police officers. They had four cops in my
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  Speaker 3: line up so the two main witnesses were the two
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: little boys. They never identified me in the lineup. Two
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: weeks later, their parents called the Balmer County Police that
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: our children have made a mistake. It's really number six
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: and that's the position I stood in. So the parents
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: were in the lineup with the kids. Yeah, they wouldn't
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: let the little kids in the well, and they also
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: drove home together and drove to the place together. It
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: was a lot of different things. What I know of
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: law enforcement, you never put witnesses in the same room
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: or to try to identify anybody. This whole thing really
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: started from the older child making a composite sketch that's
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: circulated in the area, and there was five hundred tips
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: that came on a tip line. What directed this whole
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: thing toward me was a next door neighbor calling the
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: police and saying that that composite sketch looks like my
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: neighbor Kirk. That's how it all began, by somebody pointing
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: a finger at me.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Right, That's exactly how it all began, and that's where
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: it all started. To put everybody on notice that they
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: wanted to get you. Once they had that, they were
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: like all right. We got a lot of pressure. We
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: got to get somebody right because this is going to
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: be pandemonium in the community. Nobody wants their kid to
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: be next. Right, This is a real, real bad guy
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: out there. But it's hard to imagine how someone in
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: law enforcement, anyone in law enforcement in a community like that,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: like Cambridge, MARYLD, which is probably like a lot of
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: other communities around the country, if you know that you've
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: got a guy in your midst who is capable of
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: the most terrible crime imaginable, which is exactly what happened here,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: I would think that you would be laser focused on
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: making sure you got the right guy. If for no
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: other reason, then your family might be next if you
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: just because by definition, if you work in law enforcement
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: in a particular community, you live in that community. And
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: everybody's got some kind of family, even if you're not
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: married or don't have kids, you may have a sister
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: or a niece or a nephew or whatever the hell
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: it is, and you don't want that person to fall victim.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: And I think that most law enforcement people are you know,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: they certainly get into it for the right reasons. No
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: one gets into it to get rich and I think
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: they want to do good. But sometimes in these cases,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: the pressure and the I don't want to call it excitement,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: but the urge to solve it gets so it overrides
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: these common sensical type of instincts and these and then
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: somebody like you ends up locked up and the perpetrator
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: goes free. And when the perpetrator is free, they're free
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: to do it again.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Let's see, early on they had there's numerous suspects in
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: this case. It was over five hundred tips that came
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: in on the tip line, but there was a suspect,
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: and there's this guy came in eight days before I
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: was arrested, and he had been released from prison or
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: from jail pending trial based on what two girls had
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: said that he tried to accost him in Bush's next
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: to rail yard. This was two weeks before Dawn's murder.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: He was let go and cut loose and they never
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: went back to check. That was eight days before I
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: was arrested. And I'll tell you what, I'd imagine that
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: the Baltimore County Police Department still haunts them today for
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: not doing that well.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: It would sure seem like again going back and comparing
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: and contrasting. You have you on the one side, an
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: honorably discharged marine, and then on the other side you
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: got a guy who several days earlier was accused, not
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: convicted yet, but accused.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: He was accused a year before as well, but they
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: couldn't have the children wouldn't testify against him, so they
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: had to let him go. This woman seen him that day,
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: running and sweating profusely. He was later arrested three weeks after.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: I was for another tempted murdering rape of a woman
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: in Fells Point, maryl. We busted in her door and
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: tried to cut her throat.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: And was he convicted of that crime? He was.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: Actually the girl got the knife from him and somehow
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: stabbed him in the foot and they followed the blood
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: to his house.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Oh she's a very brave one. She she's really a hero.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: She's a chance and in my opinion, oh yeah, never
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: met her, but I don't know.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: But whoever she is, I hope she's listening. She has
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: my respect and I know yours too. I see your
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: face sitting up talking about it. So so now things
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: get really crazy, right So here you are you have
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: no experience with the criminal justice system. Your family has
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: no experience with the criminal justice system, and all of
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: a sudden, you're locked up and you're not getting out.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: There's no bail, there's no you're not going anywhere until
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: they figure this out, right, and they're on a mission
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: now to get you. So if you weren't a wealthy guy,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, you just.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: Have any money, right, you started fishing that summer and
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: we just got married. We were broke as you can get.
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: My wife, Wanda, didn't have any money. Her parents and
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: my father had a house and he would eventually mortgage
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: that house to try to help me. I had two trials,
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: and my god, it just turned into a surrealistic nightmare.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: So day one, let's talk about when the story of
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: how you first met your court appointed lawyer, right, because
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: if everybody knows, if you can't afford a lawyer, the
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: constitution guarantees you the right to a lawyer, doesn't necessarily
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: guarantee you the right to a genius. Although, like I said,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: I always want to temper that by saying, there are
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of There are a lot of very talented
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: public defenders out there, and they are a thankless job
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: and a brutal job.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: But in your case. You ended up with a clown.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: I well, you know, I struck the lottery of inconfidence.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: I'd have to say. Now, I want your listeners to
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: picture a prison visiting room. This is my first visit
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: with my court appointed attorney. And he comes into the
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: room through an archway that's eight foot high and about
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: eight foot wide. We have to talk to a glass
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: and on a telephone type of application to talk. He
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: sits with his back to a brick wall, and the
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: first thing out of his mouth he says, Kirk, you're
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: in a lot of trouble. I thought that was very
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: astudent him right off the back, but he says, don't worry.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: I know my way around the courtroom, I know my
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: way around a criminal justice system, and we're going to
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: find our way out of here together. And actually it
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: made me feel a little better. He was really up
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: on his heels. He was going to help me prove
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: my innocence. Right before he leaves, he reiterated the same thing,
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: says Kirk, I know my way around the courtroom, I
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: know my way around the criminal justice system. We're going
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: to find our way out of here together. He put
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: his hand on the glass as a jester to say goodbye.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: He picked up his briefcase, turned around and ran right
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: into the wall. He wouldn't talk to me. That was
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: only one of three visits this man came to see
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: me in the eight months it took the seventy to
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: death row. The trial lasted two weeks, and when the
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: gavel came down, all my life man. The courtroom erupted
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: an applause, like if we're at some game and somebody
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: scored a winning touchdown for the team, that everybody like
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: they had quite the arsenal against me. I had that guy.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: They couldn't find his way out of the jail. I
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: don't see how in a world you can make justice
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: come from that situation. It's like shooting a slingshot up
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: at howitzer from on the top of a hill that's
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: a hundred feet high. You cannot win that way. And
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: that's the way they set up a lot of these cases.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: And that's why so many people end up pleading guilty,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: because they realize that their odds of winning are so
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: infinitesimally small as yours were in this case. When I
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: think you're David and Goliath, analogy is pretty good, except
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: for there's no winning in this case, there's no happy ending.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: So Don Hamilton was the one that lost her memory
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: lives on indeed, and I think that when justice was
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: finally done in this case, that's the only thing we
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: can do to honor her memory, I guess, is to.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Actually get the real guy off the streets.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: So now you're convicted and sentenced to death, and for you,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: it was as bad as it can get.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty five, the Maryland Penitentiary in Ireland was
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: probably one of the worst prisons in the United States
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: at that time. A guard had been disin bout two
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: weeks before I got there Jesus from a perceived insult
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: from another inmate. I walked on this tier when I
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: stepped off the bus, and when I stepped I had
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: to hop as I had leg irons, waist chain cuffs
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: and so forth. And you have to kind of like penguin,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: walk through this place till you get to yourself. And
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: he locked you right in and they put me on
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: that same wing that he was killed on. Now I
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: can tell you all that my life expectancy was not
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: supposed to be. I wasn't supposed to be alive after
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: nine years basically, I mean because of what I was
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: charged with.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Right in prison.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Of course, the pecking order, the bottom of the pecking
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: order is people who are charged with exactly what you
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: were charged with, which is which is hurting, harming, or
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: even worse, sexually assaulting a child, and of course snitches. Right,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: those are the people that are at the highest risk
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: of being killed. Inside you're under bo of the wrongs
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: of the ladder. You're under defeated the ladder, right, and
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: here you are, but you're looking at one of the
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: only cats that ever walked out in population on his own.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I remember my cell body next door to me.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: He said, man, you're crazier and a hootout. You can't
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: go out there. I said, I don't care. I'm gonna
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: fight just standing up one way or the other. They
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: can fight me for anything they want, but they're not
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: gonna fight me for what I didn't do. And it
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: just never came right away. It never came right away.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: I've seen a lot of horror and a lot of stuff.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: Now I'm gonna use his nickname because I don't want
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: to tell his real name. So his name is Blue.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: Blue taught me how to play chess. Now Blue was
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: six foot five. He's a big boy and really tall.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: We read all the time. He's always in. Taught me
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: a lot of stuff about prison life and what the
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: who to mess with, who.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Not to mess with.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: When I say he taught me to play chess, you're
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: probably wondering how that happened because I'm in a cell.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: He's in a cell.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: They put death row prisoners on the ministrative segregation. The
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: suicide was so he taught me how to play by
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: calling the pieces out, so we had to call a
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: man pawn four and so forth, and then he would
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: tell me what he was doing.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: He also taught me about the law. He was one
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: of the leaders from the Nation of Islam. You know,
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: he's a heavy hitter in there. He'd been there like
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: twenty years. And one day when I got off a
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: lock up and he come off, and he had come
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: to the chow hall and he tapped me on the
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: shoulder and said bloods he he said, I'm leaving to day.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: That's what some of the people called me. And I said, man,
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: what are you talking about? Because he was a three
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: time loser, he was never going to get out. I
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: didn't want to argue with blue because he was six
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: foot five. He had the most intense eyes of anybody
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: I ever seen, like Samuel L. Jackson's the closest thing
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: I could think of now. But think of Samuel Jackson's
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: eyes if they were a caramel collar, and that was blue.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: He was intense man. When he would talk to you,
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: his eyes get big.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: And and he told me, he said, I'm going home today.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: He said, I got a peel bond, so I'm out
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: of here. I bumped knuckles with him, and I said, man,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: I hope to see him play chess in the inner
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: Harbor someday, you know.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: And he went back to his cell. I went back
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: to the library where I worked, and he packed up
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: all his stuff. He made a chest set out of
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: state soap. Some of the best artists in the world
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: are in prison. He carved this out of a disposable
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: razorably he took out.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Of a rasor.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: He got dressed in his three feet suit, put on
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: his coofee, sat down, tied his tie up, and then
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: took two two number two pencils and shoved them right
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: through his eyes.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. I mean, that's why I had to pause
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: for a second. And I've heard that story before, but
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: it seems impossible for a human being to do that
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: to themselves.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: Well, in Bluesmond, that was the way to get out.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: He thought it was going to kill him. See he
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: was going to he was trying to commit suicide. What
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: it was all about? I had seen him about a
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: year later. Instead of that really intense caramel colored eye
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: man that I knew, We're walking through the hallway bent
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: over now and there was only these gray spots.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: In his eyes.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: And I asked him, I said, Blue, why did you
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: do that?
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: Man?
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: He said.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: It was echoed to that hallway in the hospital. He said,
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to see it anymore. I didn't want
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: to feel it anymore. I didn't want to be it anymore.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: And the revelation that came to me from when.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: He said after I watched him hobble away with the
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: nurse down the hallway, was how was I going to
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: do it? Blue was guilty. He knew it.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: He knew he had messed his life up, but I
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: hadn't done anything. And he turned around and said, you'll
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: make it one day with a smile, looking at the wall,
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: thinking I was staying there close so and this was
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: our life penitentiary.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: If you had witnessed guys jumping off the tier and
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: all sorts of other.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: Horrors, yep, hang you body bootlaces. And there was plenty
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: of people that killed himself. I knew one guy that
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: took a bunch of sedatives and taped a plastic bag
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: around his head and just fell asleep.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: So it was. It was as.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Terrible and as terrifying a situation as anybody could ever
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: find himself in.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: But you had to find a way out. You were
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: not in a position to give up.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you'd give up, the state would have
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: killed you, and that would have been we wouldn't be
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: here talking about it now.
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: Well, I never had a chance to go to death
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: road because I turned my case over and my case
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: was overturned by discovery evidence. So I got a second
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: t but the same people came to testify. They were
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: seeking the death penalty again. They wanted to kill me
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: bad and shut me up because I would not shut up.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: I was convicted again, and this time I was sentenced
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: to double life in the second trial, but I still
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: was going to die in prison, and I said, man
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: had nobody didn't, And they put me out regular population.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: They did everything they could.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I thought they were thinking somebody else would kill you
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: if they could kill it, right, And a double life.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: That's a crazy thing too, right, I mean, nobody has
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: two lives.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: You can't do that, you know, no matter what you do,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: I don't even know what that means.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: You can't go, you can't die, come back to life,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: and didn't die again. But if they could, if they would,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: they would have executed you twice. They could have gotten
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: away with it. Yeah, But so so then you got
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: your sentence overturns, and now now you go back. It's
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: sort of like a I mean it's like a pyrrhic victory, right,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, you win, but you lose it. And plus
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: on top of everything else, you're a young guy. So
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: you got to look forward now to if you survive
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: and if somebody doesn't kill you in prison, or you
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: don't get sick or anything else that could happen, or
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: you don't go crazy and.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Lose your mind like blue.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: You're looking forward to fifty years of this absolutely miserable existence.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: These were consecutive life since right. See, you can't get
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: out of.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: That, no way you can do it. You were dying.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: You're a dying prison. But obviously that's not what happened,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: because you're here. There's a fantastic, amazing story, sort of
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: a miracle story actually about how you actually did manage
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: to become the first DNA xignery in the country. Yeah,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: and I'll never forget the story of how you were
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: able to prove your innocence.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: I was a library for seven and a half years,
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: so I read everything from Gestalt psychology to Stephen King.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: But Jason, don't ask me about that Gestalt book because
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: I have no idea what that gad they was. But
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: I got this book in the mail one time, and
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: it was written by Joseph Womble, who was very famous
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: back in the seventies.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: This book I read, he wrote about the first.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Time DNA was ever used in a criminal case in England,
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: and it was about these two murders, Linda Mann and
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: there's this other gown named Dawn too. I read with
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: rapt interest, and nobody could figure out who killed these
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: two little girls over there, and then they were trying
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: to find out how to catch them, and they couldn't
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: catch this guy, so they got help from this professor.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: His name is Alec Jeffries. He is the founding father
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: of what we know is genetic fingerprinting or DNA testing.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: I could not even spell dioxy rib and nucleic acid
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: back then. He's the one that developed a new test
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: that could genetically identify one person from another, and it
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: was fascinating. He come up with this technology just by
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: a mistake doing some polymorphisms. Okay, somebody have to look
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: that up about gray seals and the Antarctic. That's how
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: it all came to pass. And so he said told
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: the consoles in the Scotland yard, said, look in Nara,
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: there's killings over there. I think we can identify and
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: we test the seamen. Not only did he find the
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: real culprit in this case, as it turns out, but
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: there was a man who confessed to a crime turned
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: out to be he's false confession. Not only did they
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: exonerated him and caught the real killer, who happened to
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: be a baker to live right in town.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: What year was that?
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: That was in nineteen eighty five or so, So the
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: technology was catching up to me. I remember, coming out
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: of my bunk, I hit my head. I was reading
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: a book and I hit my head. I started remembering
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: and I'm getting chills right now on my arms remembering
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: the part in the book and it just said the
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: DNA and the semen was found and all that. Then
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: it popped in my head about the semen that was
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: found on Dawn's body in this case, slides swabbing as
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: many spermatozoa scene and closed quotes in the report I
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: had right in front of me. I flipped out. I said, look,
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: I got to get this test done. So I wrote
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: the prosecutor, who has since passed away. Her name was Ambrokes,
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: and I said, look, I need this test. She wrote
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: me back a letter and this is what she said, Jason,
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: we regret to inform you the DNA has been inadvertently destroyed.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: I got so mad when I read that letter. I
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: can still remember myself reading it and just like kind
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: of resigning myself to the fact that I was going
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: to die in this place.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: It was over.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: I didn't resign. I got mad or my face turned
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: red again. I just I threw everything in the corner,
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: all my papers, all my books, every single thing, all
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: my clothes, everything I had in myself. I had a
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: book of matches, I lit that sucker, and the book
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: of matches went out.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: And then it hit me.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: I don't think they destroyed it. They just didn't know
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: where it was.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Let me go back for a second. So you let
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: the book of matches. You were going to set all
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: your stuff on fire. Yeah, but the matches didn't work.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: They blew out. Amazing. How do you do that in
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: a cell? I like to know.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: I always felt like somebody blew him up.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there was no wind in there.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: We know that.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: So not that I know except me. So I called
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: Bob Moore and who was my lawyer? Now, this guy,
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: he was a lawyer of some record man. He was
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: just smart as he could be. He's the chief judge
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: in Washington, d C. And a superior court right now. Wow,
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: he's an awesome guy. And the quality of attorney that
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: I had now was different. So I called Bob on
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: the phone and I said, Bob, you gotta go check.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: He already thought of it, He already thought of the DNA.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: And they said that he destroyed it. And I said, Bob,
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: you better go check because if you don't, I'm gonna
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: call you twenty times a day versus ten. He went
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: back to the Towson Courthouse in Baltimore County where I
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: was tried. Sure enough, it wasn't there. He happened to
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: pass my law clerk in my second trial and they
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: knew each other. He said, Bob, what are you doing here?
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: He said, well, I'm looking for the Dawn Hamilton evidence
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: in the Kirk Bloodsworth case. He said, well, I know
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: where that's at. It's in the judge's closet, a paper
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: bag in a cardboard box sitting in the floor. And
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: there it was the swabbings, the stick, all the stuff
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: done needed and Jason, it was half of one cell.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Did free me And I'm getting the chills now, right.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: So that's where the miracle comes in, right, the fact
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: that he ran into the clerk in the first place,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: that he happened.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: To ask oft how he doing, what are you doing?
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: What are you working on? And he told him and
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: then you know, he knew where it was.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's incredible, it's synchronicity, it's serendipity, it's a
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: lot of stuff. But it also points to the fact
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: that you could have very easily given up at the
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: time when you were told that the evidence was gone.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: You'd have to be almost nuts to say, well, it
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: was not gone. I'm telling you it's not. You just
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: told it was gone by somebody who should know. But
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: you didn't give up it.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: And that's I wouldn't stop because they had already hit
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: evidence about us another suspect. That's why the case was overturned.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: That's what gave me the mindset. They go and get
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: him to check right, Well, that's how that's how you
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: got that. That's how it was overturned. Just to clarify,
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: that's how it went from being a death sentence to
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: a life sentence. It is because in the second trial
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: you were able to prove that they were that they
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: had withheld evidence. It withheld evidence about another suspect, and
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: who was right at the crime seeing the day of
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: the murder. Now, of course he wasn't a real call
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: pread but it took a year to do that test.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: So I get this posted note. It said urgent, call
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: your attorney.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Urgent.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: The guard stuck the post a note and it slid
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: it in the cell and I got it and he
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: said call your attorney. So I said, you gotta let
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: me out. I was the librarian. He let me out,
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: So I called Bob Moran on the phone collect about
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: a million time. If you knew Bob Moore, and he's
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: very quiet, very quiet mob manner God. And he was
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: screaming on you, Kirk, you're innocent, man, you're innocent. I
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: knew that. Get me out of here. He said, the
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: DNA test come back. You are innocent. And I just
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: remember sating there in a puddle. I told you, man,
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: I've been telling you all the time. So he said,
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: look now, this is new. Nobody's ever done. This has
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: been on the Capitol conviction before. So you can't tell anybody.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: Don't call anybody, don't tell anybody. So I called everybody.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: I wasn't gonna this is my life and I will
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: go live it. Well, what would you call everybody? Everybody
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: could Jane Miller Channel eleven News. She called everybody. When
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: it hit the press, it was all over. I was
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: big news in nineteen ninety three. In Juo Your Family,
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: June twenty eighth. My dad was the first call.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: What do he say?
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: He was like, what he didn't understand, you know, he
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: didn't really understand. They knew that I was taking this test,
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: but they didn't understand. And with the implications of DNA
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: were They had no idea. My father's you know, a
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: simple man, and he just didn't understand. He said, but
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: we're going to get out of here.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: So okay.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: So now you've done exactly what your lawyer told you
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: not to do. You call it everybody. Everybody now knows you.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: You got to be bouncing off the walls, right. And
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: then it's after the DNA was tested and proved that
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: you were innocent.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Then what happened. How long did it take to get
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: to trial again? And how that end up? And the
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: deal we made with the prosecutors.
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: If it was not me, they would have their own experts,
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: so they sent it to the DNA lab. It took
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: another few months. Now this is a sad part. I
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: can't say the other without saying this. Yeah, twenty four years.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: My mother passed away just a few months but five
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: months before I got out, and the day President Clinton
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: got inaugurated. It's a bad year, a bad time of
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: year for me. I had just talked to her on
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: the phone a couple of days before I was allowed
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: to go see her body in handcuffed and shackles for
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: five minutes. I wouldn't know about the DNA for another
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: few months. She was my biggest fan. She's the reason
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: I could read. But she to write me letters and
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: in the PostScript she would say, write his light. If
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. And
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: she never liked you to sit still. She would always say,
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: don't sit there like a bump on a deal. Pickle
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: used to baby laugh.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: She was awesome. So that's it, I mean, that's really it.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: It's a hard enough thing for anybody to go through.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: And the idea that you were able to see her
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: for a grand total of five minutes and then she
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: was never able to see you as a free man again,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: and that you were there.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: In this She always knew though. She always knew I
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: was innocent. She would tell me all the time, and
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: my father would constantly ask me, because you know, he's
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: come from a different error. Police officers don't arrest you
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: for just nothing. I didn't say it was nothing, but
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: I didn't do it. Then it was different. But he
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: told him all to go to hell early on because
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: he knew that it was screwing me around, and it was.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: It was obvious.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: So that weekend William Sessis was the director of the
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: FBI called Ann Brokes to prosecuting attorney and said, your
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: DNA tests have come back for Bloodsworth and it's not him.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: We've not only agreed with his experts, but we found
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: another spot of semen that matches the same guy that
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: you have in the database or in the DNA, and
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: it's not Bloodsworth. You better let him out, you said,
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: an innocent man to death row into prison, and on
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three, I stepped out of
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: free man.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: I want to go back and talk a little bit
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: about the actual killer, okay, and how they missed him
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: the first time, and how you actually ended up interacting
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: with him in prison, which is really a strange twist
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: of this whole story.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Right, What was the guy's name? Who was the actual
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: killer of this poor little girl?
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: Kimberly shee r. Ruffner was let go two weeks before
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: Dawn's murder for two attempted rapes the two other little
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: girls a year prior. The children wouldn't testify against him.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: He had dressed up like a security guard and tried
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: to accost him in the bushes. They were scared wouldn't
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: testify against him, so the judge had to let him go,
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: and he used to frequent this area. From what I
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: understand now, remember what I told you that the original
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: suspect was reportedly six foot five, curly blond hair, bushy mustache,
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: tan skin, and skinny. Roughner's five foot six and one
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: hundred and sixty pounds. Wow, so witness identifications big time now.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: That police report about him came in eight days before
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: I was arrested. The cops never went back to look.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: They were too busy trying to fit the square peg
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: in a round hole. See, he lived in Baltimore City,
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: which wasn't far from the county line. He used to
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: cross the county line. Back in those days, cops wouldn't
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: talk each other for whatever the reason, but they wouldn't chat.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: And that's how this thing happened. Ten years later, when
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: they went to search it for this guy they did,
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: they opened up the cold case. Major Rusting Price is
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: the one that's responsible for capturing Roughner. The surreal part
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: of the story is the fact that he ended up
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: being locked up.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: He committed a subsequent crime after they wrongfully convicted you
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: or wrought arrested you even he was free.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was arrested three weeks after me for attempted
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: rape and murder of a woman at Fell's Point, where
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: he busted in her door and tried to cut the throat.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: She got the knife from him, what I understand, and
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: stabbed in the foot. Cops followed to his house from
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: the blood trail, and that's how he got He got forty.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Five years to that right, and that woman never needed
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: to go through this in the first place. Had the
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: work been done in a different and a better way,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: they would have gotten the real guy. So he ended
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: up committing this another horrible crime a few weeks after
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: he had got literally gotten away with murder, and he
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: ends up in the same prison with you. But you
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: don't know it, obviously, but he does, right, He knows
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: who you are, That's what he says. He said he
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: didn't know I was in there for what he did,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: but I don't believe. So how weird is that looking
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: back and realizing that this is a guy who's on
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: the same literally living with you, who was a guy
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: who was responsible for not only for this horrible crime
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: against humanity, but also for a second horrible crime against humanity,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: which is putting it inst the man almost almost having
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: you executed for the crime that he committed.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: They asked him in court.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: He was charged with her murder and he got life
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: because I didn't want him to get to death penalty,
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: because I wanted him to stay alive for the rest
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: of his life and think about what he's done.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Kirk, When you were released from prison, can you paint
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: a picture for us of what that was like.
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: Well, it's I'm sitting in the prison and they had
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: the warden let me on out, and he gave me
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: my little bit of commissary money and they give you
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: a check, and so he gave me the money and
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: I went on out and they drove me from the
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: prison to the top of the hill. When I hit
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: the top of the hill, he had a limousine waiting
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: for him from ninety eight Rock. It was a local
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: rock station. It was my dad and me and this
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: lady friend. They kept coming to see me in prison.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: We were into limo and they had a case of
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: beer in a limo, and.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: The limo it was just great. It's almost like well,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: from the outhouse to the penthouse.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I'm moving on up like George and Wheezy.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: So they take you into limo did you go get
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: something to eat?
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Did you go? Woh man? They had.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: They took me around the city. There was a baseball park.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: They had pizza and stuff for me. He took me
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: for a little spin around. Okay, so he drove around.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: Eventually wanted at your dad's house. Yeah, And then what happened?
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: At four in the morning. There's nobody home. Dad's gone,
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: My mother's you know, not there, but she's everywhere to
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: all her stuff was around and there was a toaster
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: sitting up on the counter. So I hadn't had toasts
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: in ten years. So I got the bread out, I
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: got the jelly in the butter, and I put this
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: toast in there and buttered it up. And it was
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: eating this thing, and I started laughing. I just thought
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: it was funny. I picked up the phone and I
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: called Bob Moore and my lawyer at four o'clock in
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: the more, say Bob, guess what I'm doing. He said,
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: I don't care. Okay, tell me what are you doing?
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: I said, I'm eating a piece of toast. And that's
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: what he started doing. He started left. And you never
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: realize how important a piece of toast is to you
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: when you don't have it when liberty is taking away.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: So you come out.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: And it's interesting because for as long as I've been
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: doing this work, one of the questions people asked me
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: the most frequently is what happens to the exoneries when
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: they get out? Do they get a big check? And
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: what does the state do for them? And your case
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: is frighteningly common in terms of the fact that it
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: relied totally, really on wrangfuel. I was his identification, which
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: is a factor in seventy five percent of the wrongful
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: conviction cases. Not the only factor in everything, but in
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: seventy five percent of cases it's a factor.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: But back to this, so were you compensated?
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: I was in Maryland, which I understand today they're introducing
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: a new bill that would pass some of the stuff
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: I had to go through in order to get my compensation.
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: So you would, you would automatically, if you get pardoned
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: from the governor, go right to compensation after you've been
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: erroneously if you've been erroneously convicted of anything. So that's
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: something I support. But there is no federal compensation for
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted peoples, and I think there should be, And
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: there's no innocent measure and no nothing. As a matter
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: of fact, you don't have any right once you're convicted
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: to innocence anymore. You can argue that in a court
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: of appeals that you're innocent only after a certain period
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: of time after.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: You've been convicted.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: You have anywhere from thirty to ninety to so many
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: days to do that. You know you're asking for a
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: new trial based on newly discovered evidence. You can do that,
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: but you cannot argue innocence in a court of appellate court.
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: I find that very bizarre, especially with the death penalty
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: looming over people. We need compensation. These men and women
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: need every dime and every bit of love we can
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: give them.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: And I mean, don't amen to that.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: But back to your case, how long did it take
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: you to get compensated and how much did you get?
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: I got three hundred thousand dollars for my almost nine
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: years of imprisonment in two years on death row, which
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: they never really did. They never really calculated the death
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: row time as being a torturous act. So he gave
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: me three hundred thousand dollars, which comes to about three
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: dollars and seventy two cents an hour.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: So you end up getting compensated, and then things get
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: even more interesting, right because of the work that you
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: have chosen to do and that you have done so effectively,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: because Kirk has been one of the most effective advocates
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: meeting with government officials, politicians. And actually you have a
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: bill named after you, don't I do.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: It's called the Bludsworth's Post Conviction DNA Testing Program. And
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: what does that do.
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: It's a federal grant program which gives moneies to states
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: to pay for post conviction DNA testing. So that's a
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: federal law. That's a federal law. Yeah, but states can
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: get it. And it's called the Bloodsworth Program. Is named
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: by Patrick Leahy and Orren Hatch, who took us eight
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: years to pass that piece of legislation. And I'm pretty
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: proud of it. There's a fella in Kentucky named Mike,
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: I can't pronounce his last name. He got out on it,
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: Thomas Hainsworth from Virginia. And there was another fella just
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: recently got out from the Bloodsworth grant in Illinois.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: I believe have you gotten a chance to meet those guys.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: I got to meet both Thomas and Mike.
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: But there's like thirty others, you know, so they've they've
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: gotten out of prison because some states, say, like Kentucky,
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: don't have the monies to pay for these testings. Like
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: Kentucky's public defender system is non existence. Basically, they have
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: a couple hundred dollars to represent somebody. They don't have
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: any money. So, and Thomas Hainsworth was in there for
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: twenty some years and now he works for the Attorney
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: General's office in Richmond.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: Wow, so God bless him. How about that? Yeah, I
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: take that one.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, I got to take a minute to process
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: that information. But what an exciting and what an incredible
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: feeling that must be.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, I have to say that was one of the
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: shining moments in my life.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: So, Kirk, You've also done a lot of work actually
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: on getting rid of the death penalty.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, help end it in Maryland. I've also worked in
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: New Jersey which ended it, New Mexico. I did some
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: behind the scenes stuff Connecticut, Delaware. I've seen it fall
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: in several states, and I worked very hard in Nebraska
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: and California last year and they fell.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: But you know, I'm going to come back. I'm not
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: gonna let.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Them in Nebraska and California were really terrible results.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: Here's an example of the government, I think putting too
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: much pressure on a thing because they're diametrically opposed with
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: the elected legislature of the people. The people voted for
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: that they vetoed and override his veto. Governor Ricketts decided
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: to do it and spend money because his family's got
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: a lot of money to reinstate the death penalty rights.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Maybe just backshot kirk So in the basket.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: What happened in the last election was that the legislature
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: overturned the death penalty, eliminated it, governor vetoed it, the
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: legislature overrode the governor's veto, and then the governor financed
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: a referendum and got and ran all these ads and
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: got people riled up or whatever he did, and then
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: got the public to vote on a referendum which reinstated
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: the death penalty. I mean, he really wants to execute people,
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: you know. I always find it strange too, I mean
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: a lot. The one thing I can't relate to is
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: people that are pro life and pro death penalty, Like
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: I can't.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: I don't see how those two match up.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: But that's me and of course, in California, we had
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: the other problem, which is that they passed this horrible,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: horrible referendum which is like a speed up the death
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: penalty referendum, which basically guarantees that we're going to execute
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: a bunch of more innocent people.
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: And billions and billions of dollars have flowed through that
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: system in California and they've done nothing. They have seven
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: hundred and twenty five death row people in the state
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: of California and they're just housing these people.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: They'll die of old age before they die in the gas.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: Right, which makes it all symbolic and weird and ridiculous.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, you can't be around somebody like Kirk or
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: Sunny Jacobs or any of the other death row dexigneries
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: and not feel a deep anger and just a burning
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: desire to eliminate the death penalty when you know, not
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: only have we exonerated over twenty innocent people with DNA
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: from death row, but also we know that a number,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: a large number of innocent people have been executed in
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: this country. And to me, the number one is too big.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: I don't care what your motivations are, it is morally
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: reprehensible to accept the idea that we're going to execute
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: even one innocent person. So you've done a lifetime's worth
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: of work. I'm fixing the system so people can get
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: access to DNA testing nationwide. You had to bill named
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: after you. You've helped abolish the death penalty in a
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: whole bunch of states. It's an incredible series of accomplishments.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: And now the guy who was the crab fisherman is
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: now in another unlikely to I know if you look
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: at him, you say that if I had to make
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: a list, if I just met you, and I'm going
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: to make a list of somebody said what's the least
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: likely profession that this guy could be in, I'd probably
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: say ballet dance would probably be number one, and number
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: two would probably be jewelry designer.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: Right, but you don't dance, No, but not make jewelry.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: Make jewelry. So let's talk about that because I want to.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: I want to give a plug because I've seen some
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: of the jewelry and it's incredible. I swear to guy,
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: you must have some fairies living there or something that
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: help you, or elves.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: The Keeblers are out of business. Yeah, I don't know
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: how to hell you do it. I mean your hands
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: are too damn big, but anyway, go ahead.
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: So well, as it turns out, you really need some
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: strong hands to bend silver or gold. And I have
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: a business. It's called Bloodstones. It's a B l o
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: O D S S t O n e s dot
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: com and I've been doing it for two years. I
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: went to Revere Academy in San Francisco. Four hundred and
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: some YouTube videos later, and you got Bloodstones, and so
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: I make everything. The only thing I don't work in
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: right now is platinum.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: So give me that website again, just for people, bloodstones
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: dot com. It's b l o O D S S
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: t O n e s dot com. Go take a
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: look at it. You'll be happy you did. You're gonna
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: need some some gifts, I'm sure coming up for whatever
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: holiday or whatever birthday for a loved one. And Kirk's
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: doing an incredible thing now. He's actually making rings for exanarees,
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: which are good.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: Well, that's soon to come out. That's soon to come out.
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: And this is since I'm on your show, and to
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: break this out because they don't they don't know this
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: this ring. It will be free to any exonerie, death
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: row or otherwise in the United States.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can wear it and I'm sure they'll
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: wear it with pride.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: And it's also it's a beautiful it's a beautiful piece
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: of you on top of that, So check out Bloodstones
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: dot com. Last question, Kirk, for people who are listening,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: who are feeling the same sort of burning desire that
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: I have after listening to you speak to get out
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: there and do something to make a difference, what would
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: you recommend they do? Is there a website they can
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: go to? Is there what can they write letters? What
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: should they be doing?
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: Well?
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: I have an organization that I deal with two in
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: their death row survivors. That's Witnessed Innocence.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: Dot org, Witness to Innocence dot ORGNISCE dot org, Witness
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: to Innocence dot org.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: Got it and you can go to them and check
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: it out.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: But I would really ask people to donate to the
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: Innocence projects and the Witness Innocence and these type of things,
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: and really whatever endeavor that axonneries have in life, you
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: should support them and to try to help them and
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: better themselves. And Alas and this is my plug for myself.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: My film is out. It's on DVD.
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: It's called Bloodsworth and Innocent Man and you can get
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: it at iTunes or on demand and it's out now.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: So oh man, I didn't even know that. So I'm
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: going to get that Blood's Worth an Innocent Man. I'm
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: going to watch.
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: Stories on there and it's from my point of view,
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: so you'll be able to check it in. It's done
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: by Gregory Bain. He's did a really good job. You
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: have to check it out.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to check it out. I hope you
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: will too. Blood's Worth an Innocent Man. It's been really
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: an extraordinary experience for me having you on the show,
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: and I hope you'll never stop doing what you're doing
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: because we need you out there is As I said,
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: you're one of the most effective advocates I've ever seen,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: and the record speaks for itself.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: get your podcasts. It really helps.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: important cause and helping.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: To prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one