Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / GUILTY ALL COUNTS: RICHARD ALLEN STONE-FACED AS DELPHI JURY SAYS HE MURDERED ABBY & LIBBY, LEFT BODIES IN WOODS

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GUILTY ALL COUNTS: RICHARD ALLEN STONE-FACED AS DELPHI JURY SAYS HE MURDERED ABBY & LIBBY, LEFT BODIES IN WOODS · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Guilty guilty guilty on all counts. Murdered defendant Richard Allen
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  Speaker 2: stonefaced as that Delphi jury hands down a verdict saying
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: he murdered Abby and Libby, leaving their bodies in the woods.
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  Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: being with us. Guilty guilty on all counts in the
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Delphi double murder trial. Richard Allen has just been found guilty.
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  Speaker 3: Four days of deliberation, guilty on all counts.
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  Speaker 4: Finally for Abby and Libby.
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  Speaker 2: Justice is, sir, two charges of felony murder in two
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: charges of malice murders. Shouts of jubilation or shouts of
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  Speaker 2: extreme relief As a court watcher comes out of the
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: courthouse and before they could get to the bottom of
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  Speaker 2: the steps yelled out guilty. The crowd erupted.
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  Speaker 1: For those of you just.
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  Speaker 2: Joining us, Richard Allen has been found guilty on all
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  Speaker 2: four counts in the murders of Abby and Libby.
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  Speaker 1: It's over or is it?
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  Speaker 2: Allan's wife comes out and clearly states it's not over yet.
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  Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
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  Speaker 2: what we know right now, straight out to investigative reporter
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  Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix, who's been on the case from the very
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  Speaker 2: beginning and is the author of Down the Hill My
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  Speaker 2: descended to the double murder in Delphi.
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  Speaker 1: What happened in that courtroom when the verdict was read.
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  Speaker 3: Judge Frank Gall gave them instructions everyone in the courtroom
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  Speaker 3: when the verdict was read, that no one can make
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  Speaker 3: any emotion. She says, she knows that both sides worked
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  Speaker 3: very hard on this, the prosecution and the defense, and
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  Speaker 3: then reading it very quickly, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. Then
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: asked Nick McCollen, the prosecutor, do you want the jury
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  Speaker 3: polled here? He said no, Then you go to Baldwin.
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  Speaker 3: Baldwin said yes, almost in a defiant manner.
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  Speaker 2: Well, you know that's trial lawyering. One oh one. The
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  Speaker 2: Phillip Dbay, a high profile lawyer in joining us out
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  Speaker 2: of the la jurisdiction. He's the public defender there, which
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  Speaker 2: means he tries a lot of cases. Philip Dubay, you
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  Speaker 2: have to poll the jury, especially if you don't like
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  Speaker 2: the verdict, because you never know.
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  Speaker 1: And I've seen it happen.
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  Speaker 2: Thank goodness, not in one of my cases, but I've
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  Speaker 2: seen it happen where one of the gurrs goes, eho,
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  Speaker 2: that's not my verdict, and it's just like the courtroom
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  Speaker 2: will erupt in pandemonium.
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  Speaker 1: Polling is when each juror is.
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  Speaker 2: Asked individually in the courtroom as they're in the box,
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  Speaker 2: the jury box, one after the next, is this your like,
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  Speaker 2: mister debate jurr number one?
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  Speaker 1: Is this your verdict? Was this your verdict? In the
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: jury room? Is it steal your verdict?
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  Speaker 2: They're typically asked those three or semblances off those three questions.
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  Speaker 2: And I have actually seen in real time a lady
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  Speaker 2: juror start crying.
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  Speaker 1: Her lips started, and she said, it's not my verdict.
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  Speaker 2: So the judge said, okay, back in the jury deliberation room.
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  Speaker 2: About an hour later they all came back and it
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  Speaker 2: was her verdict by then.
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  Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong with that.
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  Speaker 2: You can have a wavering mind or undecided or hung
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  Speaker 2: up on some point, but.
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  Speaker 1: That's why you pull the jury dubet. Of course it is.
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  Speaker 5: And once in a while you do get one or
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  Speaker 5: two during that process who have what I call the
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  Speaker 5: unreasonable doubt. In other words, they kind of have buyer's remorse.
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  Speaker 5: They see everybody in the gallery anxiously awaiting whether or
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  Speaker 5: not this is your verdict. And now you're seeing truly
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  Speaker 5: the effect of your verdict, and before you deliver it,
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  Speaker 5: you need to make darn sure. But sometimes they got
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  Speaker 5: to go back into that jury room just to console
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  Speaker 5: that person, to remind them, you did not have a
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  Speaker 5: reasonable doubt before we voted in the jury room. So
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  Speaker 5: which is it, Do you have reasonable doubt or not?
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  Speaker 5: And if they don't, they can stand their ground, and
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  Speaker 5: you know what, that juror can hang it. And if
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  Speaker 5: it's hung, so be it, and then you can give
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  Speaker 5: them the Allen charge. In Indiana, by the way, they
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  Speaker 5: don't do that dynamite or Alan charge. They abrogated it
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  Speaker 5: by judicial fiat several years ago. Instead, they just reread
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  Speaker 5: all the jury instructions because the court really has no
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  Speaker 5: way of knowing if they're hung duey in transigence or
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  Speaker 5: a misunderstanding of the law or some other grounds. So
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  Speaker 5: they read everything and they go back so that there's
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  Speaker 5: no coercive effect of the judge reading everything to them,
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  Speaker 5: specifically that Alan charge. And yes, I have seen it,
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  Speaker 5: and I've also seen it in the civil context as well.
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  Speaker 1: When Philip D.
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  Speaker 2: Bay is describing an Alan charge. When we say a
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  Speaker 2: name like that, we're talking about a case. There was
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  Speaker 2: an individual named Allen, and in that case, the jury
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  Speaker 2: was out for a very long time, and the judge
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  Speaker 2: gave them what I call dynamite, and that is the
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  Speaker 2: judge brings the jury in.
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  Speaker 1: All lawyers are.
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  Speaker 2: There, They put it on the record, and the judge says,
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  Speaker 2: it's your duty to go deliberate and reach a verdict.
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  Speaker 2: Now get back in there. That's what a dynamite charge is.
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  Speaker 2: So in this case, he's right. In Indiana, what the
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  Speaker 2: judge does is a set of dynamite. They reread the
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  Speaker 2: jury charges again, hint, go deliberate.
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  Speaker 1: So I think it has the same effect. But long
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  Speaker 1: story short, this is what happened. Listen.
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  Speaker 6: It took two minutes from the time the jury walks
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  Speaker 6: into the courtroom and the verdict is announced. Richard Allen
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  Speaker 6: guilty on all charges. Allan was found guilty of the
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  Speaker 6: felony murder of Abby Williams and Libby Jermyan, and guilty
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  Speaker 6: of knowingly and intentionally killing both girls. Judge Gull kept
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  Speaker 6: a firm hand on the courtroom and there were no
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  Speaker 6: outbursts inside the court room, but outside on the street,
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  Speaker 6: shouts of guilty on all charges rang out in downtown Delphi.
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  Speaker 2: Susan Henry's joining US investigative reporter and author of Down
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  Speaker 2: the Hill, My Descent into the double murder in Delphi.
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  Speaker 2: You're probably one of the few outsiders that weren't born
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  Speaker 2: in Delphi that knows where.
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  Speaker 1: That mon On High Bridge is. It's really hard to find,
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  Speaker 1: you know.
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  Speaker 2: When I was driving there at the last time, Susan,
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  Speaker 2: it was at night.
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  Speaker 1: By the time I got.
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  Speaker 2: Their dark, I missed the turn to Delphi, had to
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  Speaker 2: backtrack much less find that bridge is really in a
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  Speaker 2: very heavily wooded area.
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  Speaker 1: Tell me this, Susan.
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  Speaker 2: Everybody's still under a gag order until sentencing, which is
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  Speaker 2: December twenty, we think, But that means nobody can speak publicly.
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  Speaker 1: How is The families of the victims.
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  Speaker 3: Relieved, absolutely relieved.
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  Speaker 1: They didn't know what to think.
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  Speaker 3: As the days went on, Kelsey saying, thank goodness, because
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  Speaker 3: I've texted her something so and it's a sigh of relief.
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  Speaker 3: They know it's not bringing the girls back. But boy,
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  Speaker 3: on that fourth day, there were nerves joining me.
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  Speaker 2: Now, cold case investigated Research Institute founder and star of
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: Hitting You podcast Zone seven. Cheryl McCollum, who has been
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  Speaker 2: on the case from the very beginning, has analyzed forensics,
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  Speaker 2: has spent many many days in.
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  Speaker 1: Del fi re walking them on on High.
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  Speaker 2: Bridge, Cheryl, can you believe it for just a moment
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  Speaker 2: some people not naming names, were concerned this was going
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  Speaker 2: to be hung.
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  Speaker 4: You know as well as I do, Nancy. The rule
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  Speaker 4: is for every day they spent, that's an hour of deliberation.
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  Speaker 4: This jury did their due diligence, There's no question about it.
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  Speaker 4: They even asked once again to see the video that
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  Speaker 4: Libby took and the interrogation. It was important to them
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  Speaker 4: to get it right on all four counts, and I
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  Speaker 4: believe they did.
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  Speaker 2: Now, Cheryl mcollum, when you say they wanted to see
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  Speaker 2: the video and the interrogation, you know Richard Allen gave
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  Speaker 2: over sixty confessions the defense at trialise, Yeah, it was
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  Speaker 2: temporarily insane. Y had a psychotic break. Don't listen to
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  Speaker 2: any of that. But Cheryl McCollum, when you say the
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  Speaker 2: jury wanted to see the video and the interrogation, what
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  Speaker 2: video and what interrogation?
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  Speaker 1: That could be anything. Cheryl Well, I.
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  Speaker 4: Think it was important to them to see the video
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  Speaker 4: that Libby took on the bridge, and then to see
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  Speaker 4: the video where Richard Allen becomes angry again. For us,
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  Speaker 4: that was key to say they're leaning toward the prosecution here.
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  Speaker 4: They wanted to see, can this man that we have
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  Speaker 4: watched silently in court nodding some, he laughed some. He
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  Speaker 4: would make gestures toward his wife like call me. He
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: would stare at all of us, He locked guys with everybody.
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  Speaker 4: They wanted to know, let's watch this video again and
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  Speaker 4: see do we see some rage? And they did, And
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  Speaker 4: it's important Nancy to say, Okay, maybe they're comparing a
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  Speaker 4: lot of other things. But as far as the confession,
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  Speaker 4: even before he was incarcerated, he confessed to being there,
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  Speaker 4: not just on the trails, but on the bridge. He
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  Speaker 4: told him what he was wearing and where he was
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  Speaker 4: part And then when they went back and went through
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  Speaker 4: every confession, they saw where he gave information only the
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  Speaker 4: killer would know about the White.
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  Speaker 1: Vand Susan Hendrix. Let's follow up what Cheryl just said.
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  Speaker 2: What the jury wanted to see at the end, and
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  Speaker 2: they had a lot of jury questions. They asked for
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  Speaker 2: a lot of things during deliberations, which some people take
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  Speaker 2: as a bad sign.
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  Speaker 1: I do not take that as a bad sign. They
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  Speaker 1: wanted to see a video and an interrogation tape.
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  Speaker 2: Specifically, I think it was the girl's video where she
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  Speaker 2: somehow managed to get video of quote the bridge guy,
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  Speaker 2: and one of the interrogations, which one wasn't Susan.
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  Speaker 3: It was on October twenty sixth, twenty twenty two, with
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: Detective Jerry Holman, where he confronts him his home had
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  Speaker 3: already been searched. It wasn't the first one on October thirteenth,
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  Speaker 3: so it was home is searched. Now he's angry. Holman
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  Speaker 3: brings in his wife.
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  Speaker 1: They talk.
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  Speaker 3: She says, you never told me that you were at
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  Speaker 3: the bridge that day, So it's the wife and him,
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  Speaker 3: back and forth. Holman did an excellent job. He comes in,
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  Speaker 3: it gets confrontational. There's yelling, and Holman says, did you
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  Speaker 3: see the girls in those woods? And he's like, arrest
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  Speaker 3: me or send me home.
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  Speaker 1: He's like gladly and he cuffed him.
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  Speaker 3: And I believe they wanted to see that reached just
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  Speaker 3: like Cheryl said, because the man in that courtroom is
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  Speaker 3: nothing like the guy in that video.
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  Speaker 1: The jurors needed to.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: See crime stories with Nancy Grace.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: You know, Susan Hendricks.
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  Speaker 2: You mentioned ten twenty six, twenty two, and that was
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: a very big day for investigators because officers searched his home,
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  Speaker 2: I believe ten twenty six, twenty two, and they found,
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  Speaker 2: as they called it, a bridge guy starter kit let
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: that sink in because the killer is the bridge guy,
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  Speaker 2: all right, he's saying down the hill, and the girls
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  Speaker 2: went down the hill and that's where they were murdered.
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  Speaker 1: A bridge guy starter kit, a car heart. I'm reading
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  Speaker 1: my notes because let me make sure I got it.
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  Speaker 2: Right, a car heart and jacket that the bridge guy
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  Speaker 2: was wearing, a sig sour pee as in Penny to
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  Speaker 2: twenty six, an unspent forty caliber Smith and Weston cartridge
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  Speaker 2: that was found in a hope box in Allan's bedroom.
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  Speaker 2: They hit the jackpot, and it wasn't just one undetective
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  Speaker 2: finding all of this. There were multiple detectives there watching
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  Speaker 2: each other. So it's not as if one sneaky detective
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  Speaker 2: went in there and planet a car heart, jacket, a
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  Speaker 2: six hour p Twenty two, twenty six, and a forty caliber.
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  Speaker 2: Well did that did not happen? It was all there,
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  Speaker 2: no wonder. Richard Allen was angry.
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  Speaker 3: He busted, yeah, and he thought he was going to
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  Speaker 3: get away with it because during that interrogation he said,
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  Speaker 3: nothing you have is going to connect me to that mean,
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  Speaker 3: nothing you have.
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  Speaker 1: He was confident.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: He wo wait by bye bye, wait wait wait, Susan Hendricks,
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  Speaker 2: can you say that very slowly one more time?
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  Speaker 3: Nothing you have will connect me to those girls?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, right there, Bill Daly, he's joining me.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: Former FBI investigator, now expert in forensic photography, security expert. Bill,
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  Speaker 2: you come to me and say I think you committed
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: XYZ murder. I'm not going to say you can't prove
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  Speaker 2: it or you don't have enough evidence to convict me.
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  Speaker 1: No, I'm going to say, no, I didn't.
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  Speaker 2: I dare you, I double dog dare you to try
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  Speaker 2: and prove that that did not happen.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: I don't like him.
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  Speaker 2: I mean the hair on the back of my neck
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  Speaker 2: goes up when a suspect says, well, you can't prove it.
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  Speaker 1: That's why basically what he said.
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  Speaker 7: Bial yeah exactly. Certainly, his obstinence to the facts of
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  Speaker 7: what they found certainly give your pause, but you don't
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  Speaker 7: this more important things here.
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  Speaker 8: I think the.
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  Speaker 7: Fact is that this case, this case went on as
• 13:39
  Speaker 7: a cold case for close to five years. We talked about.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Twenty twenty two.
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  Speaker 7: It's key that people remember is that it was only
• 13:45
  Speaker 7: because of going through some old records as you were
• 13:49
  Speaker 7: digitizing records in this case, did one of the analysts,
• 13:53
  Speaker 7: one of the investigators, find this call, this call from
• 13:57
  Speaker 7: Allan himself saying that put himself at the on the
• 14:00
  Speaker 7: bridge that day. And it was really because of that
• 14:02
  Speaker 7: call that this whole thing opened up in Blossom.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: So, you know, we talked about jail.
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  Speaker 2: You're absolutely correct, But I believe it was a volunteer,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Bill Daily, a volunteer named Kathy Shank who was going
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: through a lot of records, and she, being a local, realized.
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  Speaker 2: I think it says something like Cheryl didn't say a
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: name on Allan Street and she said, there is no
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Allan Street, and she figured out that that tip was
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: wonkey was reversed right.
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  Speaker 4: She saw the name Richard Allen Whiteman and she knew
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: from living there white Man was the name of the street.
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: And then when they cross checked it, Richard Allen lived
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: on white men.
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  Speaker 6: The jury of seven women and five men heard seventeen
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  Speaker 6: days of testimony that included dozens of witnesses, disturbing jail
• 15:00
  Speaker 6: house videos of Richard Allen, and pictures of Abby and
• 15:02
  Speaker 6: Libby as they were found at the crime scene. The
• 15:05
  Speaker 6: jury deliberated for nineteen hours, spread out over parts of
• 15:08
  Speaker 6: four days, to come up with a unanimous verdict. Richard
• 15:11
  Speaker 6: Allen was found guilty of four counts, two counts of
• 15:13
  Speaker 6: fill any murder and two counts of knowingly and intentionally
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  Speaker 6: killing Abby Williams and Libby Jermyan.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Guilty on all counts. This case has been so divisive.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure why, but many people still insisting Richard
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Allen was framed.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Well, you can't have it both ways.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: You can't claim that law enforcement on this case was
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: so haphazard, so terrible, so sloppy. But yet they managed
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: to frame Richard Allen and it's still being kept a secret.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: You have to pick one of those. They cannot coexist.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: That doesn't happen. Now here's another person that insists he's innocent.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Richard Allen's wife bully stating this is an.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Over at all.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: That's from our friends at wt got to be a question,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: a burning question. I didn't see it happen in the courtroom,
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix or Cheryl McCollum. Did you ever see Richard
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Allen use his glasses, his reading glasses he had perched
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: on top of his head. Did anybody see him actually
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: use them? One time? One time? In how many weeks?
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Four weeks? He acted like he was using his glasses.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, the defense.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Used a lot of smoking mirrors. They said, hey, don't
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: look at that bullet. That bullet proves nothing. Don't listen
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: to these sixty one confessions. He was in the middle
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: of a side cotic break.
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  Speaker 1: He's not the bridge guy.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I know he places himself at the scene of the
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: crime at.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: The time the murders were committed.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: I know he states voluntarily he was wearing the very
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: same outfit as is the bridge guy. I know it
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: looks like him, I know it sounds like him, but
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: it's not him. Ps the Bridge guy didn't commit the murder.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Those were the defenses. But to Dr Bethany Marshall renow
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: it psycho and was joining us out of Beverly Hills,
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: author of deal Breaker. At Doctor Bethany marshall dot com.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: You can see her on Peacock. Now, Doctor Bethany, I
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: have a problem with temporary insanity temporary psychosis when I
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: watch you intermittently for four weeks of trial and you
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: act perfectly sane.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: As Cheryl McCollum was pointing out, you take notes, you speak.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: To the lawyers around you, you look over when somebody
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: walks in, You look at me dead in the face
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: before your lawyers block me. You mouth things to your wife,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: totally and completely coherent in court. How could he have
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: been temporarily insane because he was in solitary, which, Bethany,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: He had a tablet, It's like an iPad. He had
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: a constant companion outside his door. He was fed routinely,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: He had many many meetings with his lawyers and his wife,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: phone calls, FaceTime.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: Chats, you name it, doctor Bethany. That was his solitary.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: So how do you go from being perfectly sane in
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: the courtroom, not one blip in four weeks of trial,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: but yet your claim is temporary psychosis.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Well, Nancy, let's think about this.
• 18:44
  Speaker 9: Earlier in the show, you talked about the evidence found
• 18:47
  Speaker 9: in his house that he had to gun in one place,
• 18:49
  Speaker 9: the jacket the other. He was preparing a bridge guide kit,
• 18:52
  Speaker 9: but it was in essence a killer kit, and yet
• 18:56
  Speaker 9: he had the good sense to dismantle it and put
• 18:59
  Speaker 9: it in various parts of the house and then to
• 19:01
  Speaker 9: brag that they would never tie him to the killing.
• 19:04
  Speaker 9: That's somebody who is a very coherent.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Consistent, cunning and calculated. The psychologist at the jail said.
• 19:14
  Speaker 9: That he did not have flight of ideas. That means
• 19:17
  Speaker 9: ideas that are not related to each other, and he
• 19:20
  Speaker 9: did not have loose associations. So and look at his
• 19:23
  Speaker 9: affect in court. People who are psychotic usually have a
• 19:27
  Speaker 9: strange affect, meaning a strange facial appearance, appearance. We do
• 19:31
  Speaker 9: not see that, as you pointed out.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: At all in court.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: You know, one thing that was argued, or that was
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: stated by the shrinks is that he was co dependent
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: on his wife.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: That's not a mental illness.
• 19:45
  Speaker 9: It's not a mental illness. But it's interesting that when
• 19:47
  Speaker 9: Kathy walks out of the court, she says it is
• 19:50
  Speaker 9: not over. She's going to go down fighting for him.
• 19:53
  Speaker 9: My impression is this is a mother child relationship and
• 19:57
  Speaker 9: she does not care about those two little girls who
• 19:59
  Speaker 9: were murdered, so she's going to get her baby out
• 20:02
  Speaker 9: of jail, come hell or high water. So yes, he
• 20:06
  Speaker 9: was very dependent on her, and the clinical psychologist diagnosed
• 20:10
  Speaker 9: him with something called passive dependent personality disorder that means
• 20:16
  Speaker 9: you have an overly dependent posture on others in order
• 20:21
  Speaker 9: to avoid taking responsibility for your own life.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix, a investigative reporter on the case from the
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: very beginning. Is it true that Richard had over seven
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: hundred phone calls from behind mars.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: He did Nancy. What stood out to me was never
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: mentioning his daughter she was on the stand. The mom
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: Kathy wasn't there the only day when her daughter was
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: on the stand. I don't think that's a relationship that
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: is steady. I don't think the daughter is in Richard
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: Allen's life or Kathy's and seeing her on the stand
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: she answered three questions for the defense. But I found
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: it interesting that it feels like that relationship is broken. Ever,
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: doess he mentioned does my daughter still love me? Just
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: his wife and mother in those phone calls.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollums seven hundred plus phone calls.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Visits from lawyers, visits from your wife, A constant companion
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: outside your door. That doesn't sound much like solitary confinement
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: Not solitary. He was never alone. He had access to lawyers, psychologists,
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: other inmates, guards, phone calls with his wife and mom
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: and Nancy. I want to point out something about one confession,
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: when he tells law enforcement in chronological order what he
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: did that day, that proves to me, without a doubt,
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: he was not suffering in any way with some type
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: of psychosis. He was able to maintain what he did
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: from start to finish, and somebody that is delusional or
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: having other issues cannot do that. Libby should be twenty one.
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: You know, the two of them, the two of them joking,
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: talking about movies, talking about boys, talking about what they
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: would name their own babs, their girls matter.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: For me, it all boils down to forensics joining me.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Renowned professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit series Body
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, and for my Purposes, a
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: death investigator who has processed well over one thousand death scenes, suicides, accidents, homicide,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: natural causes. Actually, I think the number is much bigger
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: than that Joe Scott, what is the number.
• 22:40
  Speaker 8: I have no way of measuring that, Nancy Hishey, it
• 22:42
  Speaker 8: was a long career. I'm glad I'm here with you now.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Though, So, Joe Scott, what it boils down to me
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: is hard evidence, hard evidence, and what I find very
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: very probative is that the hard evidence disproved the theory
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: that these two girls were killed elsewhere.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Their bodies brought back here.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: The claims of odinism, that the real killers worshiped.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: The North North gods and this.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Had been basically a cult killing with many people there
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: if it was ritualistic.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: But the evidence proves otherwise.
• 23:25
  Speaker 8: Yeah, it does, and particularly Nancy, this is a bleeding
• 23:29
  Speaker 8: if you will. You know the doctor, doctor cor I
• 23:34
  Speaker 8: think is the correct pronunciation of his name. He actually
• 23:39
  Speaker 8: postulated that it took Libby up to five to ten
• 23:44
  Speaker 8: minutes to die. That blood was concentrated in that particular
• 23:49
  Speaker 8: area around about that area, So it's not like they
• 23:53
  Speaker 8: were killed somewhere else. You had blood droplets that were
• 23:56
  Speaker 8: leading from some obscure location to that particular location. They
• 24:00
  Speaker 8: were killed in that specific vicinity. You have this kind
• 24:04
  Speaker 8: of saturated area that's there, Nancy, and this was I
• 24:07
  Speaker 8: think a lot of people are kind of maybe they're
• 24:11
  Speaker 8: taking comfort in it that this was quick. It was not.
• 24:15
  Speaker 8: This was a lingering death. These girls would have had
• 24:18
  Speaker 8: an awareness as they slipped off into unconsciousness. The biggest
• 24:23
  Speaker 8: thing that's missing here, I think, is when we think
• 24:27
  Speaker 8: about the type of weapon that was used. You know,
• 24:29
  Speaker 8: the forensic pathologist had kind of what they describe as
• 24:33
  Speaker 8: evolving thoughts about this, and it led him to the
• 24:36
  Speaker 8: conclusion in his workshop of all places, Nancy, that what
• 24:41
  Speaker 8: they were dealing with was not a serrated weapon as
• 24:44
  Speaker 8: had been put forward, or another blade, but it actually
• 24:47
  Speaker 8: turned out to be a box cutter. And you know, Nancy,
• 24:50
  Speaker 8: I thought a lot about this. I thought about all
• 24:53
  Speaker 8: those nights when he's working as an assistant store manager
• 24:58
  Speaker 8: or whatever the hell he did for the drug store.
• 25:01
  Speaker 8: He's having to stock those shelves in that store while
• 25:04
  Speaker 8: nobody else is there. He had a lot of practice
• 25:06
  Speaker 8: with a box cutter, slicing those boxes open, taking out
• 25:10
  Speaker 8: each item, putting them on the shelf, then going on
• 25:13
  Speaker 8: to the next to the next box he would cut open.
• 25:16
  Speaker 8: He would have specific well, first off, he'd have access
• 25:19
  Speaker 8: to that type of weapon, and secondly, he'd have proficiency
• 25:23
  Speaker 8: with it, Nancy, guys.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: The trial went on for seventeen days. Listen.
• 25:30
  Speaker 10: The trial had seventeen days of testimony, with the prosecution
• 25:33
  Speaker 10: presenting forty two witnesses as evidence and Richard Allen's defense
• 25:36
  Speaker 10: team calling twenty two witnesses. Richard Allen did not testify,
• 25:40
  Speaker 10: neither did his wife Kathy. The jury deliberated for nineteen
• 25:43
  Speaker 10: hours over parts of four days before reaching their unanimous
• 25:46
  Speaker 10: verdict four.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Weeks of trial.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: So to you, Cheryl McCollum, neither Richard Allen, which, of course,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: under the Fifth Amendment, don't tune up, Phillip D. Bay.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Under the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent, defendant doesn't
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: have to take the stand, but the jury can certainly speculate, Wow,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: if he's telling the truth, why not take the stand
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: and tell us what happened? And interestingly, his wife never
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: took the stand. It's all well and good.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: For her to come out on the courthouse steps and go.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: It's not over yet, But why did she take the
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: stand to state what happened that day, to answer questions
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: and submit herself to cross examination?
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: Cheryl, she knew she could, She knew if she was
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: on the stand under oath that that jury would know.
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: There's no way you didn't recognize him. There's no way
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: you didn't know that wall, that gate, that manner of dress.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: You knew that boy.
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: We can recognize people from high school from a distance.
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: There's no way you didn't know him. And to prove it,
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: when you found out he wasn't just on the trail
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: but was on the bridge, the first thing you said
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: to him is you never told me you were on
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: the bridge. She had to have that feeling in her
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: good that he did this.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Philip D.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Bay, if the wife had taken the stand and you
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: were on the state's side, how would you have cross
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: examined her.
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: The first thing I would have gone into is all
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: the recorded jail calls. Isn't it a fact, ma'am that
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: you had multiple conversations with your husband while he was
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: behind bars. Yes, in fact, I'd like to play what
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: has been previously marked as states one in evidence. Do
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: you remember this conversation where he's telling you that he
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: did it and he'd like to apologize to the children's families.
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: Do you remember that conversation, ma'am? You didn't say anything
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: at the time, like that's not true. You're lying. Don't
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: make this stuff up. Instead, you kind of went along,
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: didn't you. It would have backfired on the defense, and
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: it would have been devastating.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: And also, Philip Dubay, she could have been cross examined
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: on no prior mental history, no prior psychotic breaks. As
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Cheryl said, what happened on the Valentine's Day day immediately following.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Remember the date of the offense was Feb thirteen, Feb fourteen,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: the bodies were found. On cross exam, she would have
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: been questioned about saying you never told me you were
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: on the bridge, About where that gun is kept, why
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: that bullet was kept in a different location, About any
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: potential box cutters that she saw in the home, about
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: the outfit he wore that day, any number of things.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: So, Philip Dubay on the converse.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: If you put her on the stand, which they chose,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: the defense chose not to do, which I think was wise.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: What could she have offered that would have helped the
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: defense that would have outweighed the danger on cross exam during.
• 28:47
  Speaker 5: The course in scope of your marriage, Miss Allen, did
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: you ever know your husband to be on antipsychotics? Did
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: you ever have to take him to a shrink and
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: get him on heldall and did a doctor, in fact,
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: ever talk him out of taking these types of drugs
• 29:01
  Speaker 5: and absent those types of drugs. Did you ever see
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: him go through these types of fits of peak, to
• 29:06
  Speaker 5: this type of delirium, to this type of delusional system
• 29:09
  Speaker 5: if you never saw that before and you're seeing it now,
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: would you attribute it then to the hell doll that
• 29:14
  Speaker 5: was given to him involuntarily while behind bars?
• 29:18
  Speaker 10: Nothing further major past. Cicero says there was a voluminous
• 29:22
  Speaker 10: amount of blood at the crime scene, but most of
• 29:24
  Speaker 10: it came from Libby German.
• 29:26
  Speaker 6: Cicero says Libby was moving and basically walking in blood.
• 29:30
  Speaker 10: Abby Williams died in the same spot where she was attacked.
• 29:34
  Speaker 11: And she may have been restrained or unconscious when her
• 29:37
  Speaker 11: throat was slashed. Rich Allen left the courthouse in handcuffs,
• 29:41
  Speaker 11: and the safekeeping order that it required Alan to be
• 29:43
  Speaker 11: housed at the Wabash Valley Correctional Facility has not been lifted.
• 29:47
  Speaker 11: Allan will probably remain there until he is sentenced nine
• 29:50
  Speaker 11: December twentieth at nine am. The judge has kept the
• 29:53
  Speaker 11: gag order in effect for all parties involved in the
• 29:55
  Speaker 11: case until after Allan is sentenced.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: The law enforcement that so dog of worked this case
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: has been under fire from day one. The amount of
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: evidence that they produced, finding that bullet and a blanket
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: of leaves covered in branches, sticks and twigs is amazing,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: but they found it. No one ever comments on the
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: great work they did, but listen, we are going to.
• 30:26
  Speaker 12: Continue a very methodical and committed approach to ensure that
• 30:31
  Speaker 12: if any other person had any involvement in these murders
• 30:35
  Speaker 12: in any way, that personal persons will be held accountable.
• 30:41
  Speaker 12: Since the murders of Abbey and Libby two eighty six
• 30:45
  Speaker 12: days ago, the Daily Investigative Teams red tirelessly.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories With Nancy Grace, we are going to.
• 31:04
  Speaker 12: Continue very methodical and committed approach to ensure that if
• 31:09
  Speaker 12: any other person had any involvement in these murders in
• 31:14
  Speaker 12: any way, that personal or persons will be held accountable.
• 31:19
  Speaker 12: Since the murders of Abbey and Libby two and eighty
• 31:23
  Speaker 12: six days ago, the Daily Investigative Team is red tirelessly.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum. He was literally counting the days. That was
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Superintendent Doug Carter from Indiana State Police. At that time
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: it was two thousand and eighty six days had passed.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: They never gave up, but they are assailed from every side.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: I don't get it.
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: I don't get it either. And when you start talking
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: about law enforcement and they're saying things like they're incompetent
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: and unprofessional, and there's jury canther in, they're uneducated, they're corrupt.
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: But then twelve String came together and unanimously said none
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: of that was true. They understood, they understood the confessions,
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: they understood what was found at the crime scene, they
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: understood the unsent cartridge. They got it. And overwhelmingly, I
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: believe that's what people should take away, that you can
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: be as the negative as you won't hide behind a keyboard.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: So when it came down to it, they believed law enforcement.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: And also I can say the same thing for the
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Carroll County prosecutors.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Listen, there are many dates.
• 32:34
  Speaker 13: In a lifetime that you're going to remember.
• 32:37
  Speaker 14: Date your children are born, the date you're married, the
• 32:40
  Speaker 14: date you buy a first house. The data Abbey and
• 32:43
  Speaker 14: Livy went missing. One of those dates was last Friday,
• 32:46
  Speaker 14: October twenty eight, twenty two. At that time, we had
• 32:50
  Speaker 14: gathered evidence to formulate a PC that was submitted to
• 32:53
  Speaker 14: the court and the judge did find probable cause for
• 32:55
  Speaker 14: arrest of Richard Allen. He's been charge of two council
• 32:59
  Speaker 14: murder for the murder of Abia Williams and Liberty German.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: They like law enforcement, never gave up on seeking the
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: truth to Susan Hendrix joining US, investigative reporter and author
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: on the Delphi murders joining us. So Richard Allen leaves
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: the courthouse in handcuffs. When the verdict was announced, he
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: was stony faced, showed no emotion whatsoever, and he is
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: headed to the Walbash County the Walbash Valley CI Correctional Institute.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: Tell me about what happens next. The gag order is
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: in place at least until December twenty.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: Exactly, and the sentencing hearing Judge gall said it could
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: be one day, but she'll let it go too if
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: needed to have different witnesses on the standard. I'm wondering
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: is that when we will hear from Kathy and he
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: will be sentenced on that day. But of course there
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: were so many questions. Is the gag order lifted it
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: was announced No, you know, I'm.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Very curious, Susan Hendricks nothing compared to law enforcement. But
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Cheryl and I have been subjected to so much hate
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: venom vile. I don't understand where all the hatred is
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: coming from. I hope that has not been directed at
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: you as well.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that it has.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: I try not to read the comments, but it comes
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: at me. Like you said, I think Superintendent Doug Carter
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: is such a class act.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: You're right, they got criticized.
• 34:20
  Speaker 9: We do.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: I think the defense attorneys added fuel to the fire
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: with that memorandum that came out in September where they
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: mentioned the odness. But again, it was for full circle
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: moment for me with Doug Carter. He hugged, embraced the prosecutor,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: Nick McCleland after the fact, and I.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Felt full circle.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: They were both underestimated and criticized.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: You know, Philip D.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: Bay. Right now, the defense is filing a motion for
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: new trial. That's the first step where you go back
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: to the same trial judge that tried the cases and
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: you write the defense rights, Well, the judge did.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: This wrong and that wrong, and this wrong and that wrong.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: What judge in the right mind is going to say, Yeah,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: I really screwed up after this one.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: But good, Yeah you get a new trial.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's not happening, but that is the first step
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: in the appellate procedure.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: After that it goes on to appeal.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: And I can tell you right now, one of the
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: things the defense is going to argue is that the
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: third party guilty.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: I call it sod some other dude did it.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: You know what, I think the judge did them a
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: really big favor by not allowing them to argue that
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: thor worshipers, the Odists, the Pagans did it. They would
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: have been laughed right out of that courthouse. She didn't
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: have a huge favor. Yet they're going to appeal that
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: she followed the law.
• 35:38
  Speaker 5: As much as I sympathize with counsel and being deprived
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: of a defense under Indiana law, it's not enough that
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: there was some cult, some organization out there, some organized
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: religion that had the means, the motive, an opportunity to
• 35:52
  Speaker 5: commit the crime absent pinpointing with some type of surgical precision.
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: Who in the galaxy else could have done this as
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: opposed to some group in a vacuum. In the abstract,
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: the court was correct in not allowing that defense because
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: the work just a.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: Minute, Philip Dubay, there have been plenty of UFO sidings.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: I could very easily use that. Okay, you've read the
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: increminent in Rianna. I could get out and I can say, hey,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: little green men from ours did it. That's right up
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: there with Odinus. The judge did them a huge favor.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Can't they see that?
• 36:30
  Speaker 5: Well, I don't know about that, if we're honest. One
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: of the reasons why the judge excluded it is because
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: the court did not want the jury to find what
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: we call an unreasonable doubt. The crux of third party
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: culprit is to identify the true culprit, not some green
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: humanoid that's somewhere in the galaxy or a slender man.
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: You know, there has to be some true, actual living
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: human being in that area that you could point the
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: blame to, as opposed to just some group, some organized religions,
• 37:01
  Speaker 5: some cult that performs human sacrifices in the abstract. So
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: I think the court was accurate. No higher court will
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: reverse that ruling.
• 37:10
  Speaker 11: During ninety minutes of testimony and showing photos, Sergeant Page
• 37:14
  Speaker 11: testified about the area where the bodies were found. A
• 37:17
  Speaker 11: large area of leaves and rough ground still saturated with
• 37:20
  Speaker 11: blood the day after the girls were found, as well
• 37:23
  Speaker 11: as dry blood on a nearby tree trunk.
• 37:25
  Speaker 10: In the court room, as the photos were being described,
• 37:28
  Speaker 10: noises are heard throughout the court room, sniffles, gas, family
• 37:32
  Speaker 10: members embracing jurors, squirming in their seats and uncomfortable.
• 37:38
  Speaker 12: I believe in a God of justice and righteousness.
• 37:42
  Speaker 13: Today I believe that same God has provided us with
• 37:46
  Speaker 13: justice for aving and living.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: I earnestly thanked those who prayed for this moment in time.
• 37:53
  Speaker 13: We now moved forward through the Indiana criminal justice system,
• 37:59
  Speaker 13: allowing the system to provide its due diligence and process
• 38:05
  Speaker 13: in providing that justice which is owed Abby and Libby
• 38:11
  Speaker 13: their families in this community.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: You are hearing then, Sheriff Toby Lizzenbee speaking out. You
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: know the other day in court, Abby and Libby's family
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: gave me this. Okay, it says forever in our hearts.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: Okay to doctor Bethany Marshall, can you believe we finally
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: got a verdict, a guilty verdict?
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Nancy?
• 38:39
  Speaker 9: It is so difficult to believe. Over seven years later,
• 38:44
  Speaker 9: and do you know what's happened while all this time
• 38:46
  Speaker 9: has passed living, Affey's classmates have reached milestone's, gone to proms,
• 38:52
  Speaker 9: graduated from school, and these two little girls were deprived
• 38:56
  Speaker 9: of that.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: All of that Bill Day former FB.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: What is it like to devote your heart and soul
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: to a case and finally see it culminate in a
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: guilty verdict?
• 39:06
  Speaker 15: Yeah, it certainly.
• 39:08
  Speaker 7: It brings a full circle.
• 39:09
  Speaker 15: It brings relief to those people who were criticized, as
• 39:12
  Speaker 15: we mentioned before, I think it also does a great
• 39:15
  Speaker 15: support to law enforcement to say that over these many years,
• 39:19
  Speaker 15: as they've maintained their noses steadfast focus on this, but
• 39:22
  Speaker 15: they also maintain focus on change, custody, and evidence, and
• 39:26
  Speaker 15: none of that seemed to be called into focused focus here.
• 39:29
  Speaker 15: Maybe on appeal, But from my view, they did a
• 39:32
  Speaker 15: tremendous job, and the tremendous job to the memories of
• 39:36
  Speaker 15: these two innocent angels.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: I agree, Susan Hendrix. What do you think we finally
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: got a verdict?
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: I'm thrilled for the families, I'm absolutely thrilled, and for
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: law enforcement as well.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: They work diligently, and they work together.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: They care about this family. They cared about Abby and
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: Libby and I'm so happy that we got the resolution
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: we did.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: To Cheryl McCollum, can you believe it? Or finally here
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: we have been reporting this, investigating on this for so
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: long it doesn't even seem real.
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: Nancy. I appreciate you sending me to Delphi, letting me
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: get to know Libby's family, especially her sister Kelsey. And
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: I'm going to tell you when I knew you were
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: sick to be boots on the ground and you were
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: going to walk into that courtroom, here's all I know.
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: It's not the amount of time that was spent, it's
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: that time was spent. And I appreciate you, Nancy.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Like wise, Cheryl likewise, Cheryl, you know I've been wearing
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: this ever since the family gave it to me, forever
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: in our hearts. I wish we could go back in
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: time and change everything and that the girls were still alive.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: You know, nobody really leaves the courtroom and celebrates nobody's
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: un quirking champagne. Everybody leaves with a broken heart. Yes,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: they get justice of sorts, and it would be so
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: much worse if they did not get justice. There will
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: be a whole in these families hearts forever until they
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: go to their graves and they are joined with Abby
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: and Libby in heaven. Now, at the end of every program,
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: we remember an American hero. These are our heroes today.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Abby and Libby just fourteen and thirteen.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: They solved this.
• 41:39
  Speaker 16: Murder their own murders, and their memory will be with
• 41:44
  Speaker 16: us forever. I wish it was them, but their memory
• 41:49
  Speaker 16: will be with us forever. Our two heroes, Liberty German
• 41:57
  Speaker 16: and Abby Williams. Thank you to our guests for being
• 42:02
  Speaker 16: with us, but especially to you for being with us
• 42:06
  Speaker 16: throughout this long saga. Finally, justice for Abby and Libby.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Good Night friend,