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How To Stop The "Black Sheep Effect" From Destroying Your Family · The Family Teams Podcast

• 0:00
  When somebody feels disconnected, sometimes we're tempted to pull away from our child, particularly the dad. I think sometimes dads are like, oh, I'm getting all the success and I feel really good and competent. As men, we love to feel competent. I feel so competent when I spend time with these two or three kids. This one, this one's a puzzle for me and kind of gets under my skin. I'm going to sort of subtly like pull away from that child. That is a disaster. That is a black sheep ready to happen.
• 0:26
  Hi, welcome to the Family Teams Podcast. Our goal here is to help your family become a multi-generational team on mission by providing you with biblically rooted concepts, tools, and rhythms. Your hosts are Jeremy Pryor and Jefferson Bethke, and we can't wait to chat about all things family.
• 0:44
  All right. Welcome back to the Family Teams podcast. I know what you're thinking. Wait, who's this person talking? If anybody, if we haven't met, my name is Blake Allsmith. And we're trying something new where I'm going to try to host and facilitate. Don't worry. We still have Jeremy Pryor on here. We have April Pryor on here. We have Jeff Bethke on here.
• 1:01
  And so the idea being, I'm going to try to ask these guys some questions and we're going to dive deep into a new theme. Actually for this whole next month, we're going to jump into the topic of winning your children's hearts. And so, I mean, if you've been around the family team stuff, you hear about order, you hear about meetings. And I think sometimes we can start to think like, where's the heart in this thing? And I would say at the very core of it, you really can't create order
• 1:24
  or discipline or systems in a family unless you've really captured your children's hearts and so that's going to be the theme that we're going to be hitting again and again this month in the podcast so on that theme the first thing we want to talk about is the topic of avoiding the black sheep effect and as a middle child who maybe myself uh i maybe had been a black sheep from time to time uh we want to kind of dive into this and something that's near and dear to my heart so
• 1:48
  Maybe as we kick it off, Jeremy, before we go any further, frame this for parents. What is the black sheep effect and why is it such a quiet killer of connection and families?
• 1:57
  Yeah, we all know that we desire identity and we get our identity from our families. And so oftentimes in a family team or in a family system, you have the one child who feels like, hey, I just don't feel like I fit quite in this family. And they're getting that idea from comparing themselves to their siblings. They're seeing their siblings like really succeed or whatever. And so they start to figure out, well, where do I fit in this family? Am I the musician? Am I the funny one? Am I the like, and they just can't figure out where they fit. And they're like, you know what? Forget it. I'm the anti-family person.
• 2:27
  And this dark kind of identity sort of falls over this child. And you don't know quite what's happening, but they're just fighting you. And they're actually finding and drawing identity out of the family system by being the anti-family child. And so we need to be aware that this is just a dynamic because we are identity-formed creatures. We need an identity. And so this actually is so common, especially in larger families.
• 2:52
  that we now have this really well-defined or well-described cliche for it, the black sheep or somebody just says, hey, that person's the black sheep of the family. So we wanna just, as family teams, we just wanna say, we don't wanna lose any of our kids. We don't want any of our kids to take on this identity. This is not healthy, this is not good, and this is not inevitable. There's ways to make sure this does not happen. And so we're here to really dive deep into how this is created and also especially how to make sure this doesn't happen to one of your kids.
• 3:22
  What are maybe some symptoms that you, if you start to see it maybe with your kids, maybe April, I'm kind of curious, what are some flags that you see that you're like, okay, maybe this person's starting to develop into being a black sheep?
• 3:34
  Yes. Well, I think the enemy comes after us in mainly two ways, as a tempter or an accuser. And so I feel like some of our kids are more susceptible to hearing the accuser's voice, who can say things to them like, you know, you don't really belong here, or you're different than all your siblings, or maybe you were a mistake, things like that. So I think you can kind of see watching your kids respond to different
• 4:02
  different dynamics in different social settings, what you can see when a comment hits them sometimes by their facial expression, and just being really sensitive to that as the mom of saying like, oh, I think that might have hit home with them in a not good way. And then, you know, being able to follow up with them. How much of this do you think, April, do you see as
• 4:26
  being on the other sibling side versus being on the black sheep themselves? Like how much of that is balanced out between the siblings versus the kid themselves?
• 4:37
  Yeah, I think it can go both ways because our kids are, you know, probably just a couple years apart. So their maturity level isn't like hugely different. And so I think the, you know, the non-black sheep kid could say something snarky because they're trying to push buttons or they want to feel better about themselves or something. And so they can, you know, put the other sibling down and be just as guilty of that.
• 5:01
  alienating their sibling because they're trying to elevate themselves somehow. And so we're looking out for themselves. And so I think that's part of our job is to notice that and say, Hey, to address both parties, like the accuser voice coming out of your sibling's mouth, you know, like, Hey, you can't,
• 5:20
  talk to your sibling that way. That's not okay. And having conversations with them about what was going on in your heart when you said that. Why do you think, you know, are you jealous? Are you worried you're not going to get enough piece of the pie? That kind of thing. And then simultaneously, then you go and work with the other one who got that dart, you know, stuck in their heart and you have to help them kind of work it out. And
• 5:45
  heal that wound with the word and helping them walk through doing battle in the spirit, learning how to quiet the enemy's voice, even when it's coming out of a human's mouth.
• 5:57
  Yeah, that's really helpful as you're describing it as Satan is sitting here waiting trying to capture this kid, right? And he'll use another sibling's words, he'll use the natural differences between the kid and the other kids, like whatever he's given, he'll use to try to, you know, separate out your child from the flock, right? And I think that's a helpful way of thinking about it as opposed to thinking this is just because of who the kid is or who the siblings are. It actually is like there is an enemy who's looking to separate
• 6:25
  So, you know, right, that's how you weaken someone is by keeping them separate from the flock. Yes. I'm curious. So, Jeff, you've seen a lot of big, high-functioning families, right? Like, I feel like you've been through your network and that sort of thing. Why do you think we keep seeing this pattern, especially in big kind of high-functioning families? Why do we see this pattern of, like, one or two of these kids being the black sheep?
• 6:46
  I think it's almost pure statistics. And what I mean by that is, you know, if you have three kids, five kids, ten kids, two kids, there will be one kid in your family who is just kind of the most challenging. There will be one kid in your family who gets maybe critiqued the most, gets the most feedback, is the one that...
• 7:02
  needs to be disciplined the most. You can go on and on and you usually know, you almost always know who that kid is, right? And so then I think as a parent, you have to be really careful to even just the sheer, what the sheer numbers of doing that can kind of compel in regards to a narrative framework the kid begins to live in. Meaning if one kid is getting disciplined 30 times and one kid's getting disciplined twice, even though the one kid probably needed to be disciplined 30 times and the one kid needed to be disciplined twice,
• 7:29
  I think you need to just pay attention to the spiritual climate in which that kind of creates in the home around specifically what April just said, which is the voice of the enemy. I think the voice, because then it's very easy to then say if a kid is the one who knows like that, even the kid tends to know that I'm the more challenging one in this family or I'm the one that's a little more stubborn or I'm the one that pushes back on the parents the most, etc. It's really easy for the enemy to kind of slip a flaming dart right in there.
• 7:58
  When they're not putting up the shield of faith and say hey, yeah, you are either different you either don't belong or There's something kind of wrong with you or wrong with your parents and he just wedges Raid in there, and so I think it's the parents job to do a couple things whenever I feel that in our family I try to over crank on a couple areas one is
• 8:18
  I try to be actually defend that kid more. Not that it's like about defending kids against kids, but I think it's about validating and seeing certain kids. And certainly if you have a kid with a high justice meter, I think it's okay in some conversations with the whole family to be like, that actually makes a lot of sense to me. Like what they actually, where they're upset and where they're frustrated is I'm tracking with that. Now maybe they didn't handle it. And all that does is make them feel seen, right? I think if you're constantly coming down in frustration, especially as the father's voice, you got to be really, really, really careful of that.
• 8:45
  And then I think secondly, a way I've been thinking about it lately is I think we need to be harsher with the spiritual realm and more gentle with our kids. And a lot of us are harsh with our kids and gentle with the spiritual realm, meaning we allow the enemy to kind of do a lot of things without checking him.
• 9:00
  And we're kind of harsh with our children rather than I think, man, be harsh in the spiritual realm, but don't let the battle you are doing over there and how much you have to armor up and how much you have to push in really hard. And I think sometimes even be violent in the spiritual realm, which is what we're called to do. It's as the kingdom of God comes with violence and the violence, take it by force. That's from Jesus's mouth himself.
• 9:21
  We need to do that in the spiritual realm. And then in the physical realm, I think, exude a firm boundary, but a very gentle, gracious approach. And I think sometimes we flip those. And so that's what I would say is I think you have to be really sensitive and making sure those particular kids feel seen and feel honored in particular ways. And then we also kind of overcrank lastly on like the team. Like you have to understand, hey, the team must be big enough for all the personalities to fit.
• 9:48
  And if it's not, then we have too small of a vision of team. And so you have to ask, how do we draw a big enough boundary around our family where all of these kids' personalities and wirings doesn't mean that they get away with certain things. It actually means they're God-given, more sanctified, a holy version that we're calling them to fits within that boundary. But I think really understanding that is really important too.
• 10:10
  Man, okay, we are three for three attributing this as like, oh, this is actually something that Satan uses to attack our children. And this is really interesting. I feel like I've not thought about this subject in this direction. I've always thought like, what is it about the kid? What is it about the family system? But I feel like three for three, you guys have said, hey, this is primarily a spiritual dynamic that's happening in our kids' hearts.
• 10:31
  And I think that maybe increases just the stakes here. Maybe Jeremy or April, why don't you guys talk a little bit about what is the weight of this topic? Where does this thing go over the course of three or five or ten years? And how does it affect the family or that kid themselves? Yeah, I can speak to that. And then I'd love to set it, April, because I think there is a way that I think the husband-wife dynamic really can help heal this.
• 10:55
  But there, I do think this is a particular scheme of the enemy. Paul talks about we're not unaware of his schemes. And I think one of the ways to think about this that probably isn't clear enough is to think that this is a problem just with the child. This is usually a problem with the whole family or the whole family system. Mm-hmm.
• 11:14
  Um, Stephen Covey says the key to your family culture is how you treat the child that tests you the most. And so it's important to understand that that black sheep represents, uh, where our family needs to grow. And, uh, like Jeff mentioned, sometimes the vision is too small and you can think about very specific situation where you're like, we're a very musical family.
• 11:34
  You have five kids and four of them are very musical and one just isn't. And you're like, okay, our vision is that this is what is praised in our family. And this is what we're all about as a team. And I guess you just don't fit. You know, like, of course the enemy is going to use that to try to destroy your family. And it's not just about that child. Another thing that I really think about in this area is Jesus says,
• 11:53
  that wisdom is justified by all her children. And I've been so impacted by that word all because I do not want us to lose any of our kids. And oftentimes when you see a family system that works amazing for two thirds of the kids, but one or two kids where they just fall out, there's something deeply foolish or unwise about that family system. It's not designed for the actual members of your team. You're not actually flexible enough to make sure that everyone is feeling that they belong.
• 12:21
  Now, there also is just we have an enemy who plays offense as well. And so it's not as simple as, hey, if I create this amazing, beautiful, you know, family system where everybody hopefully feels belonging, then the enemy is not going to find any way to lie to my kids or take one of them.
• 12:36
  No, there's going to be other assaults coming at your family. 1 Peter 5 says, watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. And so I oftentimes think as a father, like, you know, the enemy is like prowling around my house and wondering what lie is going to work on what kid? Yeah.
• 12:54
  And he's going to test every single doorway of your family, every single heart of your children. And his goal is to try to figure out who is the most vulnerable to any of my lies or deceptions. And this is a way to see that. The way it first shows up is as a subtle feeling of disconnection.
• 13:12
  And you feel this child just isn't quite feeling that level of connection with the family. And usually the person who feels that their alarm bells is going out first is the mom. And so I'm constantly talking to April about this. So I'm curious, April, how this works for you. But because this is how usually she's the alarm system, right? She's kind of like...
• 13:33
  Uh, she's, she's the, she takes the temperature and I'm the thermostat. Like she tells me like, Hey, this, we're not warm enough. And I'm like, okay, how do we warm this up? Like this is, this is a, but this, this can get very like granular to the, the issues that are happening in the life of a child.
• 13:50
  Yes, I think it's very imperative that us moms kind of have a way to communicate these things that we see between sibling dynamics or even just like with the individual child to our husbands so that we can work together as a team to kind of address these things and everything from even just how you speak about your kids. Like I'll talk to some people and they'll say things like, oh, this is so-and-so. She's my...
• 14:19
  athletes or she's our academic one. And they're kind of setting them up to be this, you know, one identity and saying she there, she's our sunny one. And so then the other kids hear that, like, oh, she's the funny one. She does seem to be like more liked. So maybe I should try to be more funny or I can't be funny because she's the funny one, not me. Or, you know, it just like, we have to be careful with our own words about speaking identity over our children. Yeah.
• 14:45
  And the way the other kids hear it, like Jeff was saying, like, if we're overcorrecting one kid a lot, we need to make sure that we're also building them up verbally to the other children. So they're not, you know, kids will take up an offense and be like, oh, you're, you know.
• 15:01
  If I've not corrected him 10 times today, then I can correct him too. And so, you know, as moms, we need to, I oftentimes will pull the child aside. So they're getting kind of corrected in a private setting. And so they're not getting like, you know, the other siblings aren't hearing it one more time. But then also just having a way to communicate that with parents.
• 15:23
  with Jeremy, with my husband to be able to say like, man, we need to work together as a team on this because this is what I'm seeing, but she's not going to be able to hear the truth from me. It's got to come from you. And, um, and being okay with that too. I think there are times when I'm like, I can tell if I say it, it's going to sound like nails on a chalkboard, but if Jeremy says it, it's going to be puffy clouds and butterflies.
• 15:49
  And so being okay with that, I have actually met moms who resent that and who are upset that their husband has more, you know, sway with one of their kids or something. But you have to have the team mentality. Like, what is going to help our team the most? I want this child to, we want to set her, him up for success. How do I do that in such a way? Like, whatever it takes. And that's fine if they respond better to Jeremy's words or Jeremy being the dad or
• 16:16
  whatever it is, I'm gonna, like, I want them to succeed. And so I am not gonna take that personally. I'm gonna be like, yes, we won. Like this child's heart is turning back towards the family or towards us. And so I think that that is very short-sighted to take things like that personally. And if we wanna have the team mentality, being able to see that the role of mother and the role of father are probably gonna operate a little differently.
• 16:43
  with this topic because of like the nurturing and the more leadership or like the way that a daughter or son needs to hear from their dad.
• 16:54
  both of you guys have talked about the idea of identity being at root here. And that was really interesting that you said you don't want you, you're very careful about putting identities onto your children while also saying that the black sheep effect has actually a lot to do with identity there as well. Can you talk about the tension there? Or how do you think about the identities you give to your kids versus you don't want to put on your kids? I'd love to hear both from Jeremy and Jeff on that.
• 17:19
  Yeah, that's a very tricky dynamic, trying to figure out what is that right amount. And I think what April was saying was that you just have to be aware of what this sounds like to the other kids. Like when you say these things about one of your kids, and sometimes you want to think through the difference between saying –
• 17:42
  that they're exhibiting a behavior or a pattern that's really good and calling it out as an identity, saying, you are the blank. You know, that's where it starts to feel like, okay, there's a scarce amount of territory in this family. That sibling has taken up that space. Now I've got to go find my own space to take up.
• 18:04
  So that's what it sounds like to a child who's hearing that. And so how do you – I think it's very appropriate to praise them for something that they are exhibiting that's really helping the family. The reason why people have names is because we're too complex for these simple identities. Like I'm Jeremy. I'm not the funny one. Like, you know, that just – that puts me in a weird little box.
• 18:26
  And it also boxes in everyone else. And so you can praise someone without saying, you know, we're going to simplify your, we're going to turn you into sort of a cartoon character in the family. Because we need to reduce you to something that is specific. So that's the tension I think we're wrestling with is how do you, it's totally appropriate to praise your kids for what they are without limiting both.
• 18:48
  what that means for them in the family and also communicating, you know, sort of subtly to the rest of your kids that they need to carve out some scarce territory and defend it. This is where I think it kind of can create that dynamic. Yeah. And then I think a helpful way I like to think about it too, is ask yourself. And I think what a job of a parent is to inflame in a good way or call out what your kids are good at and praise them for it. Like Jeremy said, but specifically those things that serve the other kids in the family.
• 19:18
  And I feel like that's what we've noticed ourselves doing. And because then what you're doing is you're actually fostering a really strong team dynamic to rely on one another. So to be like, hey, bud, why don't you go talk to your sister about that? You know she's really good at that. You know she can help you out with that. You know you're struggling. And I bet if you ask her, she'd love to lean into that. Or vice versa. Hey, have you ever thought about asking him that? You know, he is really proficient at that. Or he's had a few ideas.
• 19:39
  or I bet he'd be able to kind of get you out of, you know, the brain funk of it or whatever, you know, even all the way down to like just homeschool. Like, you know, we homeschool and we've used it in that way as well as the kids kind of do have affinities towards certain subjects. And so we're not so cranking that, like April said, that it's like identity based, but it's actually like, Hey, how about you guys rely on each other a little bit with the way God has wired you guys and the way in which you guys have such a unique kind of fabric woven into you. That's different than your sibling. And that's different than actually any other person
• 20:06
  on this earth in this world. And so I think that's a fun way to think about it too, is how are you inflaming things? Because also too, people like to be really good at things. That's when you're good at something that is in service of another person, it brings you a lot of mission, meaning, and purpose. And so I think the more you can actually foster that in children with each other, it allows them to help each other, build stronger bonds, but then also I think also builds a stronger family in general.
• 20:32
  Yeah, that's totally true. I love that affirming the things that actually complement the family, right? And with that, that sense of competence comes even more sense of belonging. Yeah, and then that's opposite of the scarcity idea of the things too, which is what the other version of that does. It's like, oh, I'm the only one, no one else, you know? So it's kind of fostering, supporting each other.
• 20:50
  That's really good. So give me an example, somebody here of, let's get really practical. You don't have to name names of kids in your family, but at some point we've all seen it in our kids. Like one kid is beginning to drift very practically. What could someone who's listening to this now, what have you seen as the signs? And then how did you actually make moves? What's a thing you did in your calendar, in your week that you could say, cool, this is how I won them back or reinstated them into the family?
• 21:18
  Mine's short because I know Jeremy and April have a lot deeper, awesome, more sophisticated ones having older children. But I think one that's been amazing for us lately is this is a very practical one for parents. When you feel like that with a 12-year-old, with a 14-year-old, with a 10-year-old, maybe younger, you know, that or younger, increase the bedtime hanging out with that kid. That's something that's been big for us. I've just noticed that is a direct one-to-one correlation.
• 21:48
  then they get more bedtime hangout time. And so maybe the other kids get two, three, four, five minutes. Hey, I'm going to tuck you in. I'm going to pray for you. I love you. Good night. But this kid will get 30 minutes. This kid will get, we're going to read a book every night. We're going to read a chapter of the Bible. We're just going to tell jokes. We're going to ask Alexa to give us trivia or whatever, you know, all these different things. And if you're doing that 30, 40 minutes at night for weeks on end, it just works. It just works. Bedtimes, kids are soft.
• 22:12
  Their hearts are soft. They go to bed in peace. They go to bed in relational connection. It changes how they wake up, even to the point where I've noticed recently. So one of the kids in our family, this would be a season that was really recent. And we started, you know, we always do read aloud, but we just, I said, hey, we're going to read Narnia or Treasure Island or something like that every night, a chapter, just me and you. You pick the book, we'll do it. I'm in, I'll read as much as you want. And we would do that every single night. And then a couple nights into it,
• 22:39
  A couple days into it, excuse me, there was like a disciplinary moment that came up. And so we just had a conversation of like, that was not about that. It was just during the day about something else. And I was like, okay, what, you know, hey, what do you think is a fair discipline for that? You know, and she was kind of sad about running or this or that or all these different things that we have to do. But she specifically said, hey, you're not going to take away reading at night, are you? And I was like, man, of course not. But it was interesting that that was so what she said.
• 23:04
  That was a very, very, very special, fragile, sensitive, gentle reward for her. And so I was like, man, I don't even want that to ever even be in the bucket of it. Like that's maybe if I'm disciplining you, we'll read two books. I don't know. But that I think increased bedtime is my biggest tip. And I think that's a one that you definitely see ROI on. Awesome. Jeremy, April.
• 23:26
  Yeah, I think early on, helping them in an age-appropriate way, understand that this is a spiritual battle. I think with several of ours, we've had to teach them how to do battle. And that's kind of like even a new phrase for me. I didn't grow up necessarily doing that. But just the idea of like, I have to choose, I have to use my will, and I have to choose to say no to what the enemy is saying to me right now.
• 23:53
  Like I want to say I'm awful, I'm terrible, I'm ugly, I'm the worst one, I don't fit, I don't belong. But I have to choose to say something different right now. And so I have spent hours of my mothering time.
• 24:07
  walking kids through that. And so it's, you know, you need scripture, you need truth on the other side of that. And so there's a lot of, you know, stubbornness at first and being patient and walking them through, acknowledging what they're saying is not...
• 24:25
  the reality, not reality, that that's an enemy speaking to them. And so what does the Lord say about you? What does Jesus say about you? Where can we find in scripture that you have value and worth? And so speaking those things over them, helping them memorize those scriptures. And then when it comes up, um,
• 24:42
  Reminding them the way to do that. And, you know, once you've got them trained in that, they can oftentimes do it themselves. And watching the victory come. And I would say that that's something that sticks with them through, you know, into their now that I have grown kids.
• 24:59
  them needing, we always have to fight the enemy. He's always going to come after us. And so this isn't just a childhood thing, but needing to have that skill of learning how to fight the enemy has been very, very helpful. Excellent. Great. Jeremy, anything practical that you would recommend for someone listening to this, if they're starting to identify that maybe their child's becoming the black sheep, what they can do?
• 25:23
  Yeah, definitely this idea that you got to increase the connection. And I really resonate as a dad to, you know, when Jeff mentioned kind of make sure they have a vision for their future. A lot of times the enemy is lying to them about how things are a dynamic that's happening in the family right now.
• 25:46
  And sometimes you have to speak directly into that dynamic. And one of the tricky things is that when somebody feels disconnected, sometimes we're tempted to pull away from our child, particularly the dad. I think sometimes dads are like, oh, I'm getting all the success and I feel really good and competent. As men, we love to feel competent. I feel so competent when I spend time with these two or three kids. This one, this one's a puzzle for me.
• 26:10
  and kind of gets under my skin, I'm going to sort of subtly like pull away from that child. That is a disaster. That is a black sheep ready to happen. You have to have the opposite instinct. I am not going to lose any of my kids. And if I feel disconnected from one of my kids, I lean in. I spend more time.
• 26:25
  I get more involved. I get more engaged. I try to understand what's going on in their heart, and I try to create that connection. So I would say make sure that you have that instinct, that I'm always aware of who I feel the most disconnected from right now, and that's the child I'm most likely to lean into during that week, that month. I'm going to practically do things to spend time with them, whether it's more one-on-ones,
• 26:47
  more those conversations around bedtime, taking them on a special trip, taking them on a business trip. They should feel your presence more. And you need to say, not just with your words, but with your actions. My heart is for you. I love you. I'm not going to give up on you. And no matter how hard this gets, I'm going to lean in harder. That's kind of like the...
• 27:10
  The way that dad needs to approach when the enemy, I literally, you need to think about the enemy is like a wolf and he's coming into the sheep pen and he's dragging away one of my kids. You got to go to battle against that and not let that happen.
• 27:25
  Excellent. Dude, this is great. This is so good. I am so excited for this next theme for Accelerator. We're going to be deep diving for four weeks on this topic in particular, and you guys are ninjas in your experience in doing this. I think we actually have a workbook or something like that, a handbook.
• 27:41
  if you're interested in capturing your kids' hearts, you can go to familyteams.com slash hearts, and we have something free that you can use. And then that'll also give you some more information about the accelerator that we're doing in the month of January, where we're actually going to be going through this, facilitated conversations, getting to actually do a Q&A with Jeremy and April as they kind of go through this. And so what an important topic. So thank you guys for doing this. I think our next episode, we're going to be covering another issue, which is dealing with the emotionally distant father. And so stay tuned for that one coming up next.
• 28:11
  And I hope everybody has a great week. Thanks, everybody. Thank you for listening to the Family Teams podcast. If you're enjoying this content or have learned something new, please make sure to leave a rating and review and share with a friend. To stay up to date with our events, new content, and products, you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Family Teams.