Latest / TWRS-Leadership Straight, No Chaser / Why Overthinking Is Keeping You Stuck
Transcript
- Scott Brandt: Many of us like to make so many decisions we have overwhelm and then we wait till we're 90 % ready when if you're 75 % ready, you make the decision and go. Welcome back to Together We Are Stronger, Leadership Straight, No Chasers. And tonight we have Kylee Ingram with us from Australia. And Kylee, when you look at just the realm of decision-making, I know for yourself, you've got a very wide kind of plethora of where you've worked in technology, sports programming. I know you have your business. What was it for you that when you look kind of what stuck out where people struggle with making decisions and then maybe for yourself, what was it that you're like, this has got to be stopped because if we don't make a decision, going to happen. Kylee Ingram: Yeah, I mean, it is a very strange way to go from TV into decision science, but there is a through note there. I think when you're in TV, you have to go through these gatekeepers and, you know, they say stupid things to you, like, it has to have a beginning, a middle and an end. And you're like, ⁓ my God, how did these? Like, it's frustrating, you know, have, and every producer feels it. ⁓ so I ended up. getting really into decision science, like how do these, how are these individuals making these decisions? It just seemed And ended up doing an interactive piece called Crowd TV where we created something together and I really got into the crowd science of that. ⁓ And did really well by passing gatekeepers. ⁓ And then co-founder came to me and said, hey, I've just finished my research on decision science. ⁓ George Dovolis: you Kylee Ingram: I think you'd really dig this. And he found things like, you know, if you think about it, humans were made to make decisions together, ⁓ more society, you know, these apps and things pull this apart, we're sitting in these echo chambers. Like it's worse than it's ever been about how we're ⁓ together. So how do we bring ourselves back together and do that? So we leaned into what he learned in his science and then had another. Another scientist, Dr. Juliet Burke, who did decisions, styles, and we built off that. I think it's really deep research ⁓ great outcomes. So ⁓ keeps me ⁓ on this rather than heading back to TV. Scott Brandt: think it's an interesting thing because when you look at different things when there's backing of science, it's like there's information here. There are scientific pieces to answer say this is truly something you want to look into but ⁓ we're like, nah, nah, nah. And then the interesting thing you had highlighted the echo chamber. And so George and I have talked about when you build your tribe. Really, it's that inner circle. We talk about five to six really close people and you don't want people to come in and be yes men, be an echo chamber. Like we really talk about you want to be challenged and be open to be challenged on, maybe I haven't thought about it this way because as a person, you only have your perspective. You have what you've gone through. That's all you can really lean into. But by having other people in there that you can listen to, lean into their experience, hear what they bring. George Dovolis: Ahem. Scott Brandt: then it can bring something different that a lot of people overlook. And so when you had highlighted the echo chamber, laughed because a lot of people have a struggling piece of, don't want somebody come in here and challenge me because I don't want to look stupid or I don't want to look like I don't know everything. And so it is a very interesting thing when we look at leaders, business owners, not challenging themselves and then surrounding themselves with an echo chamber. And then they wonder why they're stuck. Kylee Ingram: with, look, without a doubt. the science, you know, Juliet worked with a hundred and four, 450 organizations and found you get a 30 % reduction in decision error and a 20 % increase in innovation if you design rooms right. But if I come back to comment on the, you know, the siloing, I think we've got this modern system where we've got these conflict entrepreneurs, like these big social platforms. the largest, most powerful companies in the world are optimizing engagement for amplifying that outrage, you know, and sticking us in. It keeps people siloed. But an organization start to feel that downstream. If you have fractured teams, you know, performative, disagree, you've got all these things. You cannot run your company like society is currently running. So how do you how do you get out of that? How do you do silo? How do you show who's who's different early. So you guys sound like you're already thinking about designing decision rooms and you're doing a great job because we do know from my co-founders research you get you get wise crowd effects from six people and above but you don't need you don't need hundreds of people you just need the right people ⁓ of the things that Juliet's research ⁓ Burke's research talks about is that piece. George Dovolis: Yeah. Kylee Ingram: And 75 % of leaders in the Western society are one of two types. They're looking for outcomes or they're looking for options. They're achievers or explorers. And you start to do that at the top, they to select more of, you know, the same type of people. Once you get to middle management, these companies are devoid of that cognitive diversity. So how do you keep it? And sometimes it feels like a bit of a rub. But that rub is important because that person's worried about the risk in this decision. That other person is worried you haven't actually thought about this particular perspective. So if you can start to understand who's in your decision room based on some outward features, you don't want homogeneity. You don't want all men or women or, you know, all one type of people. Age is another factor. need experience. So with NASA taking the engineers out of the thing so they could launch the shuttles, that didn't go well either time. you need engine. Boeing has just done the same thing. You know, they want to start. We need to make more money. We need to whatever will will sideline the engineers. So that didn't work for them either. And then that cognitive diversity piece. If you can start to work out what cognitive diversity is in the room, you will start to see people's looking at decisions in terms of outcomes, risk, people. So you have all of those different perspectives when you go into a decision. Scott Brandt: Mmm. So Kylee's sharing there, it is a very interesting thing that if you get stuck and so one of our power partners is ADP and really their big focus is helping you to run the back end HR compliance payroll. And so if you're struggling in those areas because it's not your zone of genius, you need to reach out to ADP, have them come in and the show notes, there'll be a link. And that's really what their focus is on for small business owners really to be in their zone of genius and thrive. George Dovolis: Ahem. Scott Brandt: And so it's that thought partnership there, like Kylee was highlighting. George I, it's a very interesting thing because George knows he's loud. ⁓ And then he's like, you're very, you're very precise. You think through things through a little bit. It's a very interesting thing because I come from the military. I've got that background. And so it is very interesting when we look at our dynamics and that's why we created the podcast with Kylee Ingram: Analytical maybe. Scott Brandt: really showcasing different thoughts because we've seen a lot of people struggle where they don't question their beliefs, they don't question their thoughts, and then they get stuck, and then they wonder why they're stuck because if they question, they have that fear of, I question, am I gonna get kicked out of the tribe? Am I gonna get kicked out? And caping days, yeah, if you got kicked out, you're done. But in today's day and age, if you get kicked out of the group, George Dovolis: Now. Ahem. Scott Brandt: It's gonna be a sad day because you lost friends, maybe, I don't know. But you're not going to die because there's not a wooly mammoth, there's nothing out there to squish you. But people are so hesitant on questioning their thoughts and beliefs. And that's a decision because once you're aware of something, then it's up to you to make the decision to say, yes, I'm going to adjust, I'm going to change. But a lot of people struggle with that because of the fear of the unknown. Kylee Ingram: Yeah, and I think you have to acknowledge each and every one of us has biases when we go into this. And Juliet really outlined three biases that get people. It's that social bias, who gets listened to and who doesn't. And in our society, Western society, we think loudness and status means intelligence. So other people get sidelined. George Dovolis: Ahem. Kylee Ingram: And you've got information bias. What are you going to accept and what are you not? If you don't like the sound of it, people are like, ⁓ no, I don't want to, I don't even want to know that. I don't even want to know that. I just want to know what I know. And that creates blind spots and poor evidence use. And then you've got the, you know, big, another big one for today is capacity bias. Everybody feels overloaded. And so when they feel the load is too high, they just simplify and default. and that limits your creativity. So there's all these things. The first one limits group, creates groupthink. The second one creates blind spots and the last one means your quality of outcomes decreases. Scott Brandt: decreasing of the quality is a very interesting thing because Everybody's like ⁓ I need the next piece It's like you want to be a student, but you want to take action and so people are like, I need that next piece I need to make ⁓ that next class. I need to hear the next podcast. I need the next piece of motivation Because they're trying to stop themselves from going and making the decision because if it's wrong, they're like, well, I'm gonna look silly and Then if it's right, okay, cool. It's right Kylee Ingram: You Scott Brandt: was a Tony Robbins was talking about General Schwarzkopf where he's like ⁓ we make the wrong decision We're gonna know right away ⁓ if we make the right decision then we lean into but we have to make a decision and So it is an interesting thing where people are like, ⁓ I need ⁓ this next piece It's like you probably have everything you need start taking action. And then as you take action See what's missing and then you start implementing you start putting in there George Dovolis: Ahem. Scott Brandt: And then George and I talk about the aspect of clarity because with clarity, that's your filtering system. And so if you are clear on what you're trying to achieve, the decisions as they come up, you can run it through that clarity system and say, is this going to push me forward or is this going to hold me back? And then if it's not going to work right now, okay, let's put this to the side. Maybe it's something later, but it is a very interesting thing how a lot of business owners leaders are like, I need more information. George Dovolis: you Scott Brandt: more information is not going to do you any good, it's gonna slow you down. And so is it where business leaders, owners are like, I need more information and they don't do anything. They just sit there put and they're like, I'm not moving until I have that next piece of information. George Dovolis: you Kylee Ingram: Well, mean, I think it depends on the organization. So ⁓ people aren't looking for more information. there's different people and there's people that can see a lot further ahead ⁓ risk and things like that. once again, it comes down to what kind of cognitive diversity do you have? The analyzers will always want ⁓ pieces of information. ⁓ if you've got a leader, ⁓ lot of leaders are outcomes driven. you know, they get frustrated and want to move straight ahead. that blend of people in the room is how you move. It doesn't take you longer. It actually just gives you you could give an hour to an unstructured team or an hour to a team that you built yourself with the right with the right components. You can still take the hour to decide it, but you'll come up with a lot better outcomes in this structured piece than this piece. So ⁓ not necessarily ⁓ sounds like. potentially, like I was chatting to a client the other day and they've got all the what they thought were the right people in the room. But it's not so it's they're using their gut again as to who should be there. And ⁓ think ⁓ we looked at what they were missing, were ⁓ a deliverer. which is a process orientated person to then take it. So they didn't have any of these in all these decision trees that they were doing. So once again, they are, ⁓ yeah, these are great, but we're stuck. Well, no one's, no one's, no one's showing us how we move forward from this point. understanding what you might be missing can be a scientific undertaking, not just a, ⁓ I think, you know, and Mary should be in this group because I like them. They're great. That's not, that It's not good. Scott Brandt: And it's a very it's interesting because I've done I'm doing some different things in communication and When you make a decision, they've talked about hedge phrases. And so I think feel and ⁓ actually highlighted that that actually brings down like confidence and trust that people have in you because ⁓ The interesting thing a lot of us ⁓ it ingrained and we don't realize it And so it is a very interesting thing about when you start reflecting on that, the verbiage that you use and as you're making a decision because that showcases you have confidence in yourself that the decision is going to work. Or are you like, I'm not for sure, so let me hedge here. And if it doesn't work out, then I can come back and say, ⁓ well, I did tell you, I think. so that's another interesting thing in the decision piece, the verbiage, the mindset, the beliefs that people hold. that can dictate what decisions are made, how decisions are made. And it goes to the science, like you've talked about the decision making science piece. And so it is a very interesting thing how there's so much that a lot of people don't realize and then they overlook different things and then they wonder why am I stuck? And it's like, well, there's a certain piece here that you need to tap into, but you're not doing it. And it could be that fear factor of, I don't know. And so I'm not gonna show up and be like, oh, I don't know this. So it is one of those interesting things too when you reflect just how many different pieces go involved in this, but a lot of people overlook and miss out and then they wonder why they're stuck. Kylee Ingram: Yeah, there's a few things there. think if you're making a decision, you know, with a group of people, it takes that captain's call, need for the captain's call out. And we know that leaders should speak last because independence is important, like for the outcome of that. So if you're going to sway the room too much or the loud voice, make them speak last because you're not going to get the truth out of the others. So, you know, they're going to sway. So, and it's okay in that group setting for people not to be sure. but they will see a part of the equation that the others didn't see. So what part can you plug in there? you know, one of the things that we're seeing from our tech is that 40 to 60 % of companies haven't, we have a recommendation in there that says, hey, you know, you've got this group, but you're not a great decision-making group. Add this person that 40 ⁓ 60 % of those people have never been invited before ⁓ large orgs. So it's also tapping into. George Dovolis: you Scott Brandt: Mmm. Kylee Ingram: into new people that you haven't asked before rather than the same old same old. And if you're in a group that's reaching a decision really quickly, don't have, you probably don't have, you know, the right people in the room. that was of that evidence too, is really interesting study that was done in the US on ⁓ If you have a homogenized group of people, they reach a decision really quickly. If you put somebody in there that might look different or be different, It's not just that experience that checks people. It's that the homogenized group checks itself and goes, ⁓ hold on, there's a whole nother opinion here. They take a step. It's not a long, long process. Like people try and get out of it by saying, ⁓ this is going to take more time. It's not. Just take that moment to check yourself. And then the outcome was better in those jury trials, just by knowing, by having that reflection on somebody else's what actually might have occurred. Scott Brandt: Hmm. Kylee Ingram: ⁓ which is kind of fascinating in itself as well. Scott Brandt: Hmm. So right now if you're getting nuggets from the episode hit the like button. If you're looking for these types of videos hit the subscribe button. And as you're listening really if you are stuck and you're like, I don't know why I'm not moving, look at your decision making that you're making. Or if you're not making decisions then you're gonna continue to stay stuck. But it's pertinent because once you make the decision you gotta take action. And so that's another thing that George and I talk about is the power of action. people make decisions or they think they make a decision, then they don't take action. And so the action is what feeds that speeding up process. But the interesting thing is a lot of people hold off and they're like, I'm gonna hold off. I think I've made a decision, but I'm not gonna take action. And have you seen any of that where people will come to a decision, but then kind of step back and say, we're not taking action because of whatever it may be as an excuse that maybe they're showing up with. Kylee Ingram: Look, we're working with teams in organizations. So I think, you know, they, ⁓ you know, not making a decision is part of the decision, you know, understanding. think sometimes it goes back to the why. Why are you doing this? What we're seeing at the moment is a lot of organizations implementing AI. I've got to have AI, got to have it, got to do it. But they don't know what their outcome is that they're producing the AI for. Like, you know, there's a lot of slot being, you know, shipped out. What. George Dovolis: Hmm Kylee Ingram: why? What are you doing it for? And so I think some of that reflection about the vision about why are you doing it and what your outcomes are, if you can go back to that, you know, sometimes it's easier to make a decision on that. But I think if you accept we are better at making decisions in a group, which science shows, get the right people in the room and it won't seem it won't, you know, I think it stops that stalling or at least not doing anything, it's clear as to why you're not doing. Scott Brandt: Hmm and it seem like a lot of people have problems with? Updating how they make decisions and it sounds like we do like there's a science that's showing up the science the studies and all that but are people really ⁓ to tap in and bring these in and then they start operating from outdated decision models is that something that ⁓ occurred or ⁓ occurring for people where Decision models that they may be using are outdated. Kylee Ingram: Well, I think they're slow. You know, they would get a big consultancy to come in as they grow and say, right, let's do a decision framework and then this leads to this and there's all these charts. I think that's, you know, that's the old, ⁓ it? Like, you know, people want things, people want things fast. And I guess... One of the appeals seems to be with what we've created at Wiser is you go in, you've got everyone's, you know, people start with decision profile mapping. You can see what everybody's decision profile is. You can see what you're missing. We often see now teams have only two or three of the seven archetypes. Then if they want, they're using the platform live, it says to you live, hey, this is who you're missing. it's, you know, green, red to green. I, have you got a good light for a process? And that's. You know, lot of it, we talk a lot about defensible decisions. Sometimes it's just a process people want that they can say to the board, this because you got to make a decision. ⁓ And think we can be ⁓ philosophical it. Decisions, good or bad, only time will tell. And there's that proverb about, ⁓ I know whether you've ever heard it, like Google proverb about the horse that comes into the family and the father just goes, ⁓ good bad, only time will tell. There's a lot of, you know, I think you've got to be a bit philosophical about it. George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Kylee Ingram: But if you can have a green light process, and that's something that we provide, is to say, right, we got a green light on this. We had the right shape in the room. We had, we were accounting for outward facing diversity, cognitive diversity and experience. And we had a good team here and this is what they came to. Sometimes it's just that defensible decision making that you're after. Rather than it being this cumbersome framework, I think of the old days that used to sit in there. It's definitely what appeals from our technology standpoint appeals to people like scale ups and startups because they don't want that big layer where you've got to go and check on the black borders to who does what. think that is old school and you don't need to be paying a consultant a million dollars for that when you can just be, you you can get up and going and really see quickly who you've got in your organ and how they're working together. And it's not, the other thing we see a lot of people talking about is a restructure. So, I don't have, you know, our marketing team doesn't have this or our sales team doesn't have that. You don't need it in that. You just need to know where it is in your organization and bring it in at the right point. ⁓ it's no longer about the restructure about what we need. It's about knowing where your people are in the organization and pulling them across. Scott Brandt: Thank George Dovolis: I'm going to ask you about creativity and technology. Why do so many people struggle blending creativity and technology together? I mean, you talk about storytelling. You talk about everything you do on your creative. what you guys were talking about, these are things that hit me is that when you have creativity and technology, people struggle trying to put that together. Kylee Ingram: Do you kind of mean that individuals struggle with like there's one individual in the creative and one in the tech and they're not coming George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Yeah, coming together, they struggle with that. Kylee Ingram: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, from my background in TV, I'm lucky I've got the, I do everything badly. You know, I've got both that I can bring together. Maybe comes out well in the end, ⁓ but I think that's it. You you can see, ⁓ think you can see it, especially in the more traditional, ⁓ you know, some of the more traditional places, whether it be banking or whatever. I think there's, ⁓ think, George Dovolis: What? Ha Yeah. Kylee Ingram: The language is so far apart, it's easy to discredit it. it's easy to say, ⁓ I don't understand it. And that's a soft, it's a soft skill. There's nothing soft about communication, is there? ⁓ one of the things that we've just built, a client asked for it was, ⁓ we use your decision profiles to work out how to talk to people? And we built out a tool called Y-snaps that actually sits on its own website where I could profile George Dovolis: No, not at all. Kylee Ingram: George before we had this meeting and I say, right, I'm to meet George. And it says, this is what I want out of, you know, our conversation with George will say, yeah, that's not going to work because George is, you know, a visionary. He wants to know what you're going to, you know, sell him the big package. Whereas Scott sounds like an analyzer from what we've, from the way you two describe one another. Scott's going to want the numbers. He's going to want the da da. So it's actually helped people structure that conversation more about George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. That is true. Kylee Ingram: And we analyzed like 300 emails that went out from the charity sector to people and they were completely missing talking to people that are worried about outcomes and analytics and risk. And so when you stop talking to the people in their language, you can be as upbeat as you want about saving the kangaroos or whatever you're to do. I just stuck that in for you, you know, for the cultural content. Scott Brandt: You George Dovolis: That was good. Kylee Ingram: You can be as you know, you're going to save all the koalas, whatever you're going to do, that upbeat and they're written the same way. They're missing the mark for different people. And I think what I'm trying to get at is I think that's part of it is understanding that cognitive process of people. You have to talk to people where they're at. so creatives can't just go, you know, this could be a Netflix series or whatever, because the guy, the guy from accounts is like, what the hell are you? What are you talking about? George Dovolis: Ahem. Yeah. Yeah. Now that's crazy because I've seen companies make bad decisions. companies fail from just bad ideas poor decision making, what you have seen in your field? Kylee Ingram: I mean, ideas are a dime a dozen, aren't they? Like, I don't have a problem coming up with a new idea every moment. I think the thing is, it's a process to get an idea out there. You know, you can't just have ideas and be frustrated that they're not making it to market or whatever, or no one can see your vision. Because an idea is just an nth of the journey. You know, it's such a small part of the journey. But... George Dovolis: Ahem. Kylee Ingram: With that said, you know how I was saying a 30 % reduction in decision error, 20 % increase in innovation. Big companies are not designed to be in search mode for new decisions, but how can you unearth that within your org? And some people are better at that than others. And that comes back to the bias, the capacity bias about keeping the load so people can... George Dovolis: Mmm. Kylee Ingram: can be creative in their roles and the creativity in different people's roles looks very different. a creative person in sales is looking different from a creative person in marketing, but I think it's about the quality of ⁓ solution they're coming up with. And companies aren't made to be in that seeking mode, how do you ensure that those ideas are coming forward that might be incremental adjustments to what you're delivering? George Dovolis: like that. You know, it's when I read everything, you know, what you were doing and compiling and it just over just so many different things you've done. You started in television documentary, you were over 100 countries. What made you first realize storytelling had really the power? Kylee Ingram: think, you know, with documentary, I think it's a privilege to sit down with people that aren't ho-hum about what they do. You know, you're sitting there with somebody that just loves what they do and that's, you know, you're never in the same space. One day you're with marine biologists under the water and the next time you're, you know, launching rocket ships or whatever you're doing. So that is just a privilege. And I think that story, those stories, like out of this, you know, George Dovolis: Yeah. Kylee Ingram: you're not going to remember all the stats, but if I told you a story about how a board imploded because they were all one type, you know, it's that bit that people remember, people only remember 5 % of what whatever it is. And I think it's that storytelling that connects people. It goes deeper. can, you know, ⁓ sit up here. It's the story that gets ⁓ people that's important. And I think I love George Dovolis: Yeah. Scott Brandt: Mm-hmm. Kylee Ingram: I love listening to people's stories. It ⁓ was a good fit for me. Then it just got hard. Documentary making just got hard. George Dovolis: And I, cause I think most people remember, you know, how it made them feel about the story and they, they can really relate to it. And I think that's true ⁓ people are passionate about telling the story and talking about it, people, there's a lot of people that can relate to it and kind of ⁓ the journey through your eyes. And I think it's so, It's so cool to have people that have influence leadership that can tell stories and cultures and human connection to have that bond that people can really relate to. Kylee Ingram: Yeah, I think that's what we forget when we're carrying on in these silos is we have so much more in common. Like the hate that people feel for one another. think, yeah, but they're not killing like they're not killing anybody. They're or they're not hurting children. Like we need to calm the heck down about what we think are differences because all so much more and people struggling in the same way. You know, people are angry in the same way. I think we're a complex species. George Dovolis: Ahem. Mmm, yeah. No. Yeah. Kylee Ingram: We're complex species that if we're a bit kinder to ourselves and one another, a hell of a lot further. George Dovolis: Very. You know, the question I have is when leaders get egos, ⁓ know, these leaders, it can really have blockers and stop making decisions because the ego overflows. what you seen, how do you really correct that ⁓ and to sit down with that leader and really tell them, That ego is not your amigo and you need to, you need to escalate it, let it go so your company can move on. Cause I see a lot of CEOs have that block and I'm the CEO and not enough in really kind of forgetting where they started, you know, and what you've seen in your past, what really kind of sticks out to you how to have that person change. before you know anything happens. Kylee Ingram: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's another product of society, isn't it? Where we've got these ego, these ego, it's seen as success. Whereas we know the best decisions don't come from a leader making the captain's call, it's who's designing the best decision room. But there's nothing, I think, you know, it's also a product of is seen, what is success seen like? You know, these people that are really rich and they're George Dovolis: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Kylee Ingram: behaving any way they want is be careful what you wish for in life because you know I think balance and thinking about who you are as a human is important but that's beyond what I think. think a lot of especially men see these you know these people that seen to be successful. That's what I want and so that's difficult and I think with WISER what we see is the people that need us most want us least. They're like I don't need you. George Dovolis: now. Kylee Ingram: I don't need to be an inclusive leader. don't need whatever. I'll just hire new people. people at the end of the day are what is what's going to make your company great and how you treat them is important. And one of the things I've gotten around these type of leaders is I say, and you know, a lot of companies, less than 3 % of people make all the decisions. You say to them, how do you delegate with certainty? And then they're like, oh, yes, I have a delegation problem. So Even if you want to make the captain's call, at least know how the information got to you and who was involved. So if you still want to be Captain America, go and have at it, but at least know how it got to you. George Dovolis: Now. Scott Brandt: So I gotta give a shout out to another partner of ours, Dr. Joey. Kylee's highlighted different things like the decision making piece, getting stuck. And so Dr. Joey, if you're a business owner and you're stuck at revenue between half a million to three million and tried everything and you just don't know what to do, reach out to Dr. Joey, that's really his will house, really helping business owners, teams overcome that to move forward because revenue is important. to allow you to do what you need to. So if you wanna talk to Dr. Joey, there'll be a link in the show notes, reach out to him, really he's driven to make sure that you're succeeding ⁓ increasing that revenue. Kylee Ingram: I like the sound of Dr. Joey. Scott Brandt: was ⁓ His episode was in March so Yeah, he's he's on the channel. So he's out there ⁓ and he talking to so he is open He has a free 15 minute call with everybody And so he's phenomenal person. We enjoy having him as a partner ⁓ and really are for that Kylee Ingram: Hmm. George Dovolis: Yeah. Kylee Ingram: Fantastic. George Dovolis: Yeah, that's amazing. And the nuggas that you bring, I listen to you and Scott and it's like, wow, how do I step into this? all about clarity, vision, team, and everything. And one thing I really want to know, what pattern you notice when you have a healthy team in front of you ⁓ or you a healthy team in front of you? What's that really accomplish? Kylee Ingram: you Well, you see respect in the room and you see buy-in. Because of the ⁓ worst can be once ⁓ your are silent, that's like one of the worst things that happens. You've lost them. You see the buy-in, ⁓ you a room where people aren't scared to speak out. They're not scared to say, ⁓ no going to say, ⁓ that's a dumb idea or whatever. ⁓ The thing that ⁓ the shows is ⁓ even that person is not directly in the room, George Dovolis: Ahem. Yeah. Kylee Ingram: If you have that right cognitive diversity mix, people say I was represented. Even if they weren't there specifically, they kind of know who's who. Like, you know, I was represented because that person was in the room. So you can also get by in that way by ensuring that there's transparency and people can see who was there. So I think it's not it doesn't not a two second decision. ⁓ longer than that. And people like a thought. and respectful to one another. George Dovolis: Communication is huge, listening, everything about that. And in the line of business that you do, what failures teach you that success never could? Kylee Ingram: Oh, everything. Humility. Always listen, I think like, you know, I mean, it's hard when you're a startup because people tell you that Uncle Joe made what you've made last week or whatever, and you're like, yeah, okay. So I think it's always, you know, you just got to sit through that stuff. And I think it's just keeping for all the mistakes, you know, as you get older, you've made so many mistakes and so many things. I think it's a reflection. George Dovolis: You Yeah. Kylee Ingram: You know, it's not just about the why you're building your business, but who am I and what do how do I want to appear in things? And, you hear one of the things I listen to a bit is about, you know, startup therapy podcast. you know, one of the guys was saying they met all these people that exit and then the most miserable people in the world because they've forgotten how to have fun because they've killed themselves, you know, trying to do this. And I think. George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Kylee Ingram: Life's a bit of a game. It's a bit about being philosophical and whatever. And I think the mistakes are what provide that humility and ability to learn if you're open to it. So I don't know, none of us have all the answers and none of us are, I don't know. do you want to be? It's not just why, but who. George Dovolis: I could definitely understand that, know, and to listen and what you do, what, you know, all the things that you go through. I'm going to ask you this one great question. What does that trick? What legacy when your time is come, what legacy do you want to leave behind? Kylee Ingram: Is it a trick question? was, you know, good friends and family. I was good to the people. And also, I messed with the system. We created a product that said status quo isn't good enough. Stick it to the man a bit. Like, this is rubbish what is going on in the world and who's making the decisions for all of us. I, you know, we stick it to the man a bit, I'll be happy because science says you're not you know? You're not creating the best world for all of us. It's not equitable. George Dovolis: Hahaha Yes. Uh-huh. Scott Brandt: Hmm. George Dovolis: That's so cool. Kylee Ingram: and it kind of sucks. So if I can stick it to that and change, create something that makes sense and is better for everybody then great. George Dovolis: think that was a phenomenal answer. I think it was so cool to hear. Because usually other, you you said friends and family, ⁓ stick it to the I I love that because you know what? It's the honesty that really brings this show out is organic. And I just love the way ⁓ you it, you talked and the nuggets that you gave tonight. It was incredible. Kylee Ingram: Well, the science is there people, like, you know, and I'm standing on, you know, we're building it off the shoulders of the giants that did the hard work. It's there and it's accessible, use it. Scott Brandt: You George Dovolis: Yeah. Scott Brandt: So on that note, if individuals wanted to go deeper, I know you talked about wiser a little bit through the conversation. So if people wanted the ability to kind of look at that decision making profile for themselves, learn, see more of what you're doing, where would that be for them to connect with you? Kylee Ingram: Yeah, it's Wyzer, W-I-Z-E-R business. And there's decision profiles tools for individuals on there that are free. ⁓ you know, sign up your team. It's all very easy. Or just reach out to me on LinkedIn. ⁓ have unique spelling of Kylee so I'm not very hard to find out there. We can go into what trauma that caused me from my parents ⁓ not naming properly another time, but you know. George Dovolis: Did you come out with a book or anything? Kylee Ingram: well, ⁓ has books, there's books behind it. Dr. Juliet Burks, which two heads are better than one? And there's Scott Page, who was a mathematician at Michigan and he did the difference. See, I don't need to write a book, they've been written. ⁓ just need to curate everybody's, ⁓ research and build it. George Dovolis: Okay. Okay. Scott Brandt: Hahaha George Dovolis: I see what, yeah. I see you were just bringing everyone together. Kylee Ingram: just making it, making the love into technology. Scott Brandt: Yeah, we'll play it. Yeah, well, we'll put all that stuff in the show notes. that way people can go. It's right there, very simple to find. And so really, you nuggets in here, hit the like button. If you're looking for these types of videos, the subscribe button. And as you said, if you're stuck, you gotta look at what you're doing with decision-making. And if it's yourself, you can't do it yourself. So you need to figure out who's in your circle, the small circle. And like Kylee has highlighted, having that group, being able to bounce things off of different individuals. George Dovolis: ⁓ yes. Hmm. Scott Brandt: are gonna help you along the way. But other than that, we appreciate you guys coming along on the journey with us. A lot of be part of your journey and we'll catch you on the next episode.