Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Wholeness Despite the Brokenness | a conversation with author Natalie Brenner

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Wholeness Despite the Brokenness | a conversation with author Natalie Brenner · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hi friends, welcome back to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I sure hope that you're enjoying our song Heavenly Things written by Carla Adolph and Ben Pasley.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can find it on Enter the Worship Circle's newest album down here and up above.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Today, I am thrilled to introduce you to our new guest, Natalie Brenner.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's human to grieve, but is it Christian?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Our conversation today centers around this question with Natalie Brenner, who is a talented photographer, turned writer, and now the author of her newest book, The Undeserved Life, uncovering the gifts of grief and the fullness of life.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Her book was just released last week, and you'll be able to find it now on Amazon.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be talking about a little bit behind the scenes and her journey in writing.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll also be talking about the grief process, not only in her life, but in ways that we can help others and help ourselves as we wrestle through the harder questions of life.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think you'll find Natalie incredibly down-to-earth, beautifully transparent yet full of hope.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Ashley and I really enjoyed our time with her and also peeking in in their home and seeing their adorable little boys.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: So if you hear little kid noises, she has two one-year-olds, which you'll have to hear more about, and they are as cute as ever.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: You can follow her on all things social media, and we'll be talking about that as the show goes on and link to those uh connection points in the show notes.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And she um enjoys just sharing little glimpses into her home life with two little boys, and they are a beautiful way to brighten up your social media feed for sure.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Be sure and at the end of the show, stay tuned to hear about how you can enter to win one of her new books, The Undeserved Life, Uncovering the Gifts of Grief and the Fullness of Life.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: You'll want to be able to have one of those on hand to read yourself and maybe to give to a friend.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: So just stay tuned and you'll be able to find out a little bit more about that or also in the show notes.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Before we get to our conversation, a quick note about our sponsor.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast has been brought to you by The Unseen Journey.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: The Unseen Journey is an online community that is gathering together to talk and read through the book Unseen, The Gift of Being Hidden in a World That Loves to Be Noticed, written by Sarah Hagerty.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: The Unseen Journey will be an encouraging place to share meaningful discussion and thoughts as we learn more about becoming a friend of God.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: So whether you have time to cozy up with a warm drink and a favorite blanket while you read through the material and share your thoughts, or if you jump in during your lunch break and answer some of the questions and scriptures that are going to be shared throughout the week.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe you just can pop in while the kids are napping.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: We would love you to join us there.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: You can download the free book study that accompanies the book and we'll encourage you along your personal discovery week by week, chapter by chapter.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: We'll hope you join us and we'll see you there.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, Natalie, for joining us today.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm excited to share your story.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, some of your story, because you've got a lot of layers to your story.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why you're coming out with a book, The Undeserved Life.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And when does that release?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're probably gonna release it about the same week this conversation, the same week the book releases.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: September 18th, right?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's the day.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, weeks.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exciting.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, yeah, it's coming up fast.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Your book, baby, as I know several of my author friends they feel like they're literally birthing something by public.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, very public.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big deal.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I know speaking of babies, you're sitting there in your adorable nursery.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: I know, there it is.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably a great sound room with all the like cushioned stuff.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is my smallest room.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you've got two little cribs side by side.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't we just like jump in and I don't give a give people a picture of your life right now, as it is.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: So right now, my mom, grandma is currently outside with my boys.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: They're both one.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: She brought a little tea ball and like bats that over.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: They're wild.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we um yeah, life's like a big, like, like there's a mess everywhere.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's like little Legos and blocks everywhere.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: So right now it's wild.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's two one-year-olds and they're almost five months apart, and they're sweet and they laugh a lot and they bite each other.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's great.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Great, they're great.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you live in the beauty of Oregon, of the Northwest.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a little bit jealous.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: I just love that.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I've only been like there one time, but I fell in love with it, and I was like, oh, this is gorgeous.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's so refreshing.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Just green everywhere.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you're a photographer, so I think that takes you outside quite a bit.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little bit about that.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I started uh well, actually began my photography business in I think 2014.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: So about three years ago, three and a half years ago, was I was a doula.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was awesome.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's birth photography.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that was like really exciting and a real fun time.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I started doing birth photography first and then slowly added in portraits, you know, for friends, like senior photos and whatnot.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: For um, well, we worked at a church, and so I have a lot of seniors in our anyway.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: So now I that's like my main source of income, which is wild.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so I love doing maternity photos now.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's awesome.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you just do you bring the boys with you and put them in the stroller at this point?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Or go on a photo shoot?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: I used to like strap them in when they're really little, but now they're too big where they're not exactly excited to be strapped in all the time.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I hire a babysitter or I have my sister come help.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's awesome.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's so great.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, so a lot of people heard that you have two one-year-olds, but five months apart.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we got it back up and yeah.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Share your story a little bit.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: So uh when my husband, his name's Lauren, when my husband and I started to talk about marriage, we talked about the importance for both of us of adoption.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's kind of always in the forefront of our thinking and hoping.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so we just assumed that we would have some biological kids first, just because adoption's like a really big deal, and we just I don't know, it just like there wasn't much thought into why biological kids first, it just seemed like the natural thing to do, you know.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we wanted to be parents, so we started trying to conceive pretty early on in our marriage, and um, I have endometriosis, which is just a whole nother thing in itself.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so we knew it'd be difficult, but we didn't know like what that looked like.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: I was just always like, I believe in like a miraculous big god, so who knows?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and so about a year and a half into not very long.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it felt like a long time, but not very long in the grand scheme of things of trying.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: We were like, we want to be parents, so I mean, we know we want to adopt, so we might as well just start the adoption process because it could take a while, you know.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so we might as well just, you know, start that.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so we like shared that with a couple friends, and then I at the time was on my last round of um clomid, which is just like a low intervention fertility aid, and got pregnant, and so we were like, oh my gosh, let's like pause our adoption process to spread the babies out.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then I miscarried that pregnancy, and so that was really devastating.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so then we ended up picking the adoption process back up like a couple months later, and just were like, okay, well, if we do get pregnant again, let's just celebrate and like maybe Jesus has like some wild, like maybe we'll grow by like four feet or six feet.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what if we have like twins and you know, I don't know.
• 8:35
  unknown: Totally.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: So um, about six months later, uh, after restarting the adoption process, we did get pregnant again, which was so scary, and I wasn't ready for how scared I would be.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then when I was 20 weeks pregnant, was when my first our first son, who was adopted, was born, and we heard about him.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so we flew and met him, and then less than five months later, I birthed our second son.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: So now I'm one year old.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a quick synopsis.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so now you have uh full hands and full heart, obviously.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh Jesus is so good.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so what like what besides your photography business that may have, I assume, prompted your blogging and that whole adventure, just kind of tell us your journey of writing and then you know, kind of and then we'll I want to talk about your book and the reason, just some of your reasoning behind it and the stories that you share in your book.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: So writing, I've loved I've always loved writing, and I actually started my writing, my blog.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it was called something else, but I started it when I was a senior in high school, actually.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I've been like blogging for a long time.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but in the last most recent years, I've really started to take it seriously.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um I really when we were in youth, so we were in youth ministry for a couple years and helped plant a church, which was just like a wild adventure in itself.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I wrote a lot then.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: I wrote about when my parents were going through um a divorce and remarrying, and so I kind of wrote about just like learning how to process that without sharing their story, you know.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: And just like finding Jesus in all of life was is kind of what actually the heartbeat of my blog really is, is like just really trying to find Jesus in all the pieces of life, whatever that looks like.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I used to write a lot about like the scriptures that I was going through and stuff like that.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so more recently it's been a lot about adoption and motherhood and loss in church.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, so when I when I walked through, I kind of touched on miscarrying and when I miscarried that pregnancy, that baby, both my husband and I were not quite ready for how much that would rock our world.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: It was an early miscarriage, and people like to kind of gauge tragedy by asking like how far along you are, and like every time I felt really little, like dumb, that I was so devastated, you know.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was constantly met with like, is there even like permission to be sad about this and like really grieve it, you know?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: And we were on staff at a church, and I mean, as you ladies might know, I mean, they're just like weird stigmas and like this weird expectation to walk through things certain ways, and maybe not even maybe it's just in our head, you know, like you may be on the best leadership team, but there's still that which you know there's different Yeah, and so I just really wrestled through with that, like um, it's all right.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: I hear those kid noises, it's alright, it's between friends, it's not your kids.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let me know if I need to kick them out.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're fine, it's totally right, yeah.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so anyways, basically when I was walking through that season of miscarriage, um, I read like a lot of books.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: I read a lot of books on grief and miscarriage and whatnot.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so the ones about miscarriage were rarely about or like by Christian authors.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, except I did love well, every better thing is sweet wasn't exactly about miscarriage, but that was like maybe the by Sarah.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that was like perfect.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um so anyway, so like I really was hungry for I was learning a lot about grief, and I was really hungry to know like, okay, so clearly it's like human to grief, but is it like Christian to grief?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great grief as a Christian, you know?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, can I be sad and torn up about this?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I really began to be honest, and well, I've always been just a candid, honest person, and so I just knew that if I wasn't honest with Jesus during those moments that it would explode later when I did have children, and I didn't want that, and so I just committed to myself and to Jesus to be honest and whatever that looked like, I was just gonna trust him that he could handle that and that he was big enough.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: I had someone who I I revered and respect, and still I love her.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't wear um she's at that church, and we were in relationship really close, and she one time, you know, was like, and I love her.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: She just was like, you know, I hope you're not mad at God about this.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: And like I wasn't mad at God, but I did pause and I thought, you know, but even if I am, like, he can handle that.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: She can handle my anger, and so he can handle our anger and he can handle our disappointment because I think ultimately a lot of those times we do have to walk through disappointment with God because he he didn't fail us, but our expectations of what he was gonna do did fail us.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and therefore it leads us to disappointment, and it's very real.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like whether our expectations were right or wrong, it's still a disappointment, and they still were there, and it still feels uh let down because it didn't it didn't work out where it felt like you know, this is this is in my best interest, and even though later on we can point to him, we have to go through that valley and just acknowledge that like it feels like you let me down, God.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I like tend to beat myself up a lot when I'm like, well, who am I to like have expected this?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm sure everyone does this, right?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: And like, and now I'm feeling like sad about it, and I always shame myself for feeling that sad over lost expectations, but like God is never shaming us.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: God is always and when you just said like we have to walk through the valley, like there's rivers in the valleys, and like that's what I kept finding was like God's river, you know, like the river of life, and so oh my goodness, he's just like I think I just am so passionate about offering people the space and grace to like just be, because I feel like God does that for us.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: God allows us to like just be and not like wallow in like self-pity, but like just be broken, you know.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: You are my people, yeah.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Everything you're saying.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're my people for sure.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think that yeah, we both really appreciate our heart in this, and I guess it's so like giving anything more Christians need that permission.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I know that's part of what has prompted you to write the book, but tell us a little bit of you know, just from the writing journey perspective, and I should clarify like I I know you through Sarah Hagerty essentially, and I don't even know how you got connected to Sarah, but I know it's just been a real fun, you know, just to kind of follow you and watch you and and just that connection of what you know the Lord's working in you simultaneously to a message that is personal to me as well.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: But then you know, you getting to launch your book baby and all of that.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: So just give us a little of the inside scoop.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so like the inside scoop of like just writing it.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: So during so I kind of started and then I got off track.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: When I was reading books, I just kept thinking, I really want, you know, more books.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh just I really love stories and people's stories, and so I love Sarah's books and Jen hat makers, and I just love people's stories, you know?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just thought, like, I'm just gonna start writing.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna start writing, and I've always wanted to write a book.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: No one's asked me to write a book, you know, like no big fancy person, but I'm just gonna start writing and see like what God has and if God has something.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so I really just began writing every day and processing all the emotions, all the feelings, everything I was going through and my prayers and the scriptures I was meditating on, all this stuff.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then so that was in 2015.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then we started the Jabshan process, and I just kept writing, you know, every day.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: I just wrote.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and I also blogged a lot, and a lot of people were like, when are you gonna turn your blog into a book?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I don't even know how to do that.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so then um in 2016, so just like in December, so right before this year started, I sat down and I looked at this document I had been working on, just like a mess of words, and it had like 30,000 words, and I was like, okay, like that's a lot of words, you know, like let's like go through this.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I started combing through it and it was a real big mess.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just like, Well, I don't have like an agent, I don't have like anything, like any connections, I don't have like some big fancy blog.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I just have like my spaces, you know, and like these people who like I've had plenty of people be like, so are you gonna like write a book about this?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've just felt like that's little, I just have a lot of um when I sometimes I'll find myself being insecure and be like, who am I, you know, make it about me?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like who am I to write a book?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: But when people like drop in those, like, well, you should write a book about this, yeah.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little confirming.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's like that is like, yeah, confirming, like maybe this is a thing, and it's not like a narcissistic thing.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, maybe this is a good thing.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, I get it.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's my fear is that I'm like an arrogant person.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I hear you.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think we all we've all been there with different things.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, and hello, we have a podcast.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know, here we are.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Look at us.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Listen to listen to us, don't look at us, just listen.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I was just really wrestling through that.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so my friend actually works with um, do you know by any chance who Jeff Goines is?
• 18:38
  unknown: I don't.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's okay.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's a big world.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so this guy named Jeff Goines, who works with um, he does this thing called Tribe Writers, and it's like to help people self-publish.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't really, it's like he works really hard and he's awesome.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um his assistant friend, she reached out to me and was like, Would you be interested in um like self-publishing a book?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Oh, I don't know, like that sounds like not legit, you know.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: And she can make it legit and you can do it the right process, and it could be just as good as a traditionally published book.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: And my boss, Jeff Goines, is like really like he leads people through this process.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: And he, if you are willing to like let him lead you, he would love to like create a mini course.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of like this fun like trade, you know?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, wow, this is a really cool opportunity, you know.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, um, because I don't know how to self-publish, and I didn't even realize self-publishing was like a legit thing, because there are a lot of illegitimate, I mean not illegitimate, but you can do it poorly and you can do it well.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I want and if I do anything, I want to do it well, you know.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I was talking to my husband, and like we have these two babies both under one year old, and like life is crazy, and he's doing grad school and working full time, and I'm like and people are like time, and I don't know when the best time is because we're only gonna have more kids, you know?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: There isn't, yeah.
• 20:08
  unknown: For sure.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I just felt like God really opened this door and like place this in my lap.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, okay, here we go.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: How are we gonna make this work?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know you have a I know you have a like maybe a specific audience for your blog.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, as you wrote this book, who did you have in mind and who were you writing this for and writing it to almost?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: So initially it was kind of like I was writing the book I needed.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I imagine myself and so the people so the audience would be Christian people who maybe even are burned by the church and feel like there's no room for them because they're so broken and so hurting and so wrapped up in their grief and their loss that um because I f um I love the church, I love the bride of Christ, but we are human and so oftentimes I think we forget that we just put these expectations on each other and ourselves, and there tends to lack room to be broken, you know, even though we're also broken, but and so it's for that person who needs that permission that um Jesus is with them when they're grieving, and it's for that person who is wondering like, does it make my faith less and little and weak and and just like nothing if I'm sad or disappointed?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, does that kind of narrow it down a little bit?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a lot of people actually.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I'm surprised almost sometimes at the number of people who have had hard experiences at church and are broken.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then there is an expectation if you're gonna put on your faith face, like faith face equals happy face.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes faith face is also tears.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not it's not a cover, it's real.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean that you can feel the pain and still the pain.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: maintain your faith and be pursuing Jesus.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: I do think there's a lot of people in that category.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because in your book it isn't just talking about you know the infertility and loss and and the process of that.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of covers a lot of other things and you touched on a little bit maybe some of the pain, grief due to the church as well.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I do.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: So we loved our work at the church we work at.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: So my husband has a Bachelor's of Art BA, Bachelors of Arts in preaching and ministry and we just thought we'd always be in ministry, vocational ministry.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: I just always envisioned myself being a pastor's wife and just thought I'd be a pastor's wife, you know?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe a writer.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: That was kind of my dream.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um two things.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: And a mom, of course.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so we just um we found ourselves in a leadership full of humans who it was very unhealthy.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: It was very unhealthy and and I would say abusive.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not the first to say that.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: One of our mentors there, you know, named it that and he's like a psychologist.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: So and I really I struggle with it again.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like always like I don't want to like over dramatize things or be like over dramatic.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm really careful to talk about that.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so but it is legitimate and that is a thing.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so I talk about I so the book is just like memoir style of just walking through our story and just the various losses that I learned was okay to grieve.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so part of that is the church trauma.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: We were like looking to transition out as we were growing our family.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: We thought we need a a little bit more healthy space, you know, to be in industry to if we're gonna have a family like we want our kids to grow up in a healthy space and no church is perfect.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: But we still knew that this was unhealthy and it was just affecting a lot of our life and so um it was really hard you know we were like praying through like where to go and you know praying about applying to different churches and anyways it was just a big mess.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: I get into it in the book but we ended up being fired very traumatically and it was just really which then was revoked and like they said never mind because it actually wasn't like approved by anyone.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: It was just like a really big mess.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so through that I've learned like that it's okay to grieve and also I've learned that reconciliation doesn't have to happen with a relationship that was abusive.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like um I don't have to be in reconciliation doesn't always mean you're in relationship with person.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And like it can I mean sometimes it is but sometimes when there's abuse and it's just not necessary and God is so big, you know and you can find healing for yourself and you can find you can walk through the process of forgiving without it having to be restored as it once was because there you don't want it restored as it once was you want it completely healed and you would want restoration if there was going to be health and if both sides aren't healthy then it isn't possible.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah yeah yeah and so I've really I'm still you know I go to counseling and I still this stuff still surfaces and so just really that is such a probably a lifelong thing of re forgiveness is so layered.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it is yeah because I I mean at any point in time whether you're in the ministry or not when you're when you have relationships with people it's gonna happen.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just a matter of how you walk that out and then then how healthy the relationship was to begin with of you know what what that could look like on the other side but it's about your your healing and you walking through forgiveness because that's what Christ asked us to do.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And not without him not just mustered up again.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like without his help to help us get to that point of where we really have like our heart is clean and bitter free towards that person or situation.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think what you're doing is I mean it's forgiveness and it's also because it's two different things.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: To be to forgive is one thing but to have your heart healed is a whole different process and that does sometimes take time and layers like you said there's layers and things trigger you later or you know or whatever.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: It just takes a while and you need I think people sometimes need permission to say that.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and do the process.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Something I touch on briefly in the book is this fast forgiveness thing which is kind of like pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and just like moving on.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: But like I just don't think that's the way that it works sometimes.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: I just think that's superficial.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and you can move on but then in the next situation if something you know triggers it or likens itself to it and you're like whoa you know then where do these feelings come from and you're angry about your current situation when it really the anger or the hurt has nothing to you know do with the current situation.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's just from the previous you know trauma and hurt.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah totally totally yes it is well as one of the things that I thought um would be really good because we all will because we'll all experience grief and we all will walk through grief with others or help people walk through it.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the important things is not only to know that there is hope on the other side but there's some real practical pieces of how you know to help someone who's walking through a temper whether it's um you know loss, job loss, you know, I just think of like Houston right now.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean there's a ton of people who are grieving and and feeling a deep amount of devastation and so you know that it's easy especially when you're far away and when you're removed from the situation to kind of brush people along faster through it and they're ready to go through it.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I just would love some of your maybe I don't know your three takeaways of what people can do to just to be that kind of friend um that who can who can really be there for the person who's walking through a season of three.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so I'd say um something practical that is we tend to maybe downplay or not realize how helpful it can be is providing meals or house cleaning or going grocery shopping for that friend.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's really helpful.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: I won't forget after I miscarriage my friend Bethany brought a crock pot and groceries and brownies and I just like could I just melted because I didn't have anything in me to cook or go grocery shopping.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing in you when you're grieving you just feel empty you know and so that is huge.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then after like just multiple times just anytime even like Papa Murphy's pizza like doesn't even have to be homemade you know like it's a huge gift.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's a huge blessing to have your meals provided you know Chipotle's my go to if I'm like a margin to cook I'm like hey what's your dipole order I'll go pick up some of you it's fast it's not so good.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: So good.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: So like and and the cleaning too you know like it's it's such a help.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly I was always pushing back against people trying to help me but just push a little harder because that person will be blessed.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean yeah maybe they don't want to talk and that's why they're pushing back so put it in podcast and clean or something you know like yeah I don't turn on some watching music.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I've even said too like listen I'll just leave it on the front doorstep whatever it is I have you know like you don't have to answer the door you can like you can watch me drive away and then you can come out and get it you know like just making it as you know as non confrontational as possible for that person to have to sound fantastic.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's a real gift.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and then the other two things I would definitely say so for like if you do have a friend that you're close to I feel like when we're grieving we're at least for me I get so protective of myself because I just don't have the capacity to be strong at all and I feel like Jesus offers us that space to be away from people if we need.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so but if you do have a friend that allows you to sit with them I just think the worst thing is to offer fix it advice and offer cliches that may be true but they don't need right now it's not going to help.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so just sitting and giving them that permission like literally just sitting in the pain with them and maybe it's quiet and you're just both crying or maybe not I don't know you know like just sitting with them and allowing them and giving them that grace and space maybe it's writing them a card and saying like I'm so sorry and like you have all the permission in the world to grieve this whatever that looks like and so I just think that is so important to give our friends that permission and just recognize it you know it's like it can be bold to do that but I think it's so meaningful.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love that and I think for some people it's easier than others um I I have a gift of empathy or like I just cry naturally with people but I also have that desire to help and so sometimes I have to stop myself from offering as you know even as true as it is it just comes across as cliche you know the advice in those words where you can still be encouraging you can still speak nice but without a tone of fixing it.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: And don't ever say if you adjust that's like if you have a sentence beginning with well if you adjust stop stop immediately or at least well at least stop delete oh but at least at least you get pregnant I heard all the time that's not the point.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: At least you could maybe have another time at least you still live and at least yes yes and like we all know these people are trying to help it and like I've just learned it's like their way of not really wanting to enter the pain because it's painful and maybe they don't even know that you know and like we're just all so broken.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah because this is no shame if you guys have said that and you're like oh you're cringing because like oh my gosh I've totally said it.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well because you get in the moment and then just stuff comes out of your mouth you don't it does mine.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I get really fidgety and like oh well yeah it happens.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah but you can't and that's the thing is that you just you walk alongside them and that's the best you can do.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah definitely um and then that last thing I definitely think you guys would also agree with is like we just need to remember the power of prayer and yeah be intentionally praying for them and maybe that's not actual and this comes along with hope of like placing our hope in the right things but not praying for like you know bring her another baby or whatever the loss is but give her comfort give her peace God meet her in these broken spaces and give her that like show her your grace you know like that's what my prayer is is that God let God will bring me comfort in these times not like fix it, you know?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think these big prayers of God's presence for our hurting friends is huge.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I I think too I mean there's a couple things with that we technology is these days I mean I don't know with my phone whether you have a boxer which is an app I love but like the iPhone you can record you know a voice text instead of typing out a long prayer if you you know like I just like I hope for saying I'm praying but like either if you write that then be intentional and pray right then or box the prayer or voice text the prayer or write it out.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know just it doesn't have to be long and slowly slowy perfectly articulate.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just like I think that means a lot and and people know oh they're really they really are they're not just saying it's they're really praying for me.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah I tot I totally agree with that.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah technology has been a hindrance for many things but it is for these things and taking away our excuses.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's so good man.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes for sure.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well um any last thing that you want to share about your book of just sneak peek obviously um we're gonna try to um release this podcast the same week or can we get it on Amazon?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like where can we find it?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Who do we want to give it to that kind of good stuff.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so it's on Amazon I've had quite a few people read it already and you can kind of see what they've said on my website if you're kind of not sure it's Nataliebrennerwrights.com and it's under the tab the book.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and it's called This Undeserved Life Uncovering the gifts of grief and fullness of life um because I really do believe that the fullness of life someone wants to know I know I mean you're gonna love that though.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: I love it's quite real life um let's see um also in the back of the book and also free on my website is a gift or a grief guide.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a workbook that I created um it's really pretty short and simple.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's like 3000 words which isn't very many.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so um it's just asks questions to help uncover like the shame that we feel while grieving and and just like invites Jesus into like those spaces of being honest even if our honesty feels a little bit ugly.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's not but sometimes we feel that way.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's free on my website but also in the back of the book a lot of people ask me if I'd print it and so I thought I'll put it in the back of the book and so then get my book and the grief guide all in one.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm really excited about that.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um I just feel like that in itself is useful um if anything and so anyways yeah it's on Amazon.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you order it before well this won't air but if you order it before September 18 you get like pretty prints and some free stuff kind of like what Sarah said.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well we'll we'll share that piece of it for sure like with our community and all of that so people can get that like before the podcast release before the scoop so yeah I'm very excited about it.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome well we'll put all the details of that in our show notes for sure and just all the places that we write about this podcast and um and be sure to share your message.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: But we are just so grateful for your time and we thank you for uh your faithfulness to sharing your message because I mean I know we you know we talked ahead of time before we start recording and you know releasing a book is a big deal and it takes a lot of prayer and um there's just so many aspects of it.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you um for staying the course and fighting a good fight and um I'm just excited to see what the Lord does with your message and that people find through it.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for pointing to him.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah thank you it's an honor.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well friends I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as Ashley and I did.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that you really heard the message that every fractured heart aches for grace to just be and that maybe you can offer yourself or those that you love that grace that they need as they walk through the hard things and still be able to trust God.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that you will check out Natalie's website it's Nataliebrennerwrights.com you'll be able to find the direct link in our show notes.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: She has a grief guide on there that she mentioned that is also included in her new book.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: She also has a booklet called Financing Adoption with fundraising so if your heart is to adopt or you know someone who's in the process of looking for ways to fund and be able to afford adoption I hope that you'll check out that book as well and that's free again on her website.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: You just give her your email address and she'll send it to you right away.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of books that we talked about in our conversation and things that I I think that would be relatable to is she brought up one written by Sarah Hagerty.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Every Bitter Thing is Sweet.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is her first book about her personal journey about um infertility loss adoption and it's filled with hope and encouragement and I I think you will find it if you haven't read that book a one to definitely add to your bookshelf and to your book list.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: You also might want to check out a couple of podcasts that we had number six was with She the Qualls we talked about shame and mostly about redirecting your inner voice when times are hard or if there's things that we might feel stuck in we just talk about some practical ways of helping our heart and our mind move past some of the difficult messages maybe that um we're not doing a good job of escaping.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then Sarah Hagerty's about adoration and that is episode eight of the Simply Wholehearted podcast.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And another one that I think you'll find really encouraging and inspiring is episode 20 Walking with Winston.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: I um have a conversation with Tiffany and Brandon Yerksa and they are family friends whose firstborn was born and diagnosed with Down syndrome.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't know this before he was born and so their journey of grief and their journey to hope and healing is shared in a beautiful way in their conversation and just how they live their lives being advocates for research and resources for those in their community who do have Down syndrome.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing that you might want to check out as you're um maybe wanting to dive into maybe the more vulnerable harder questions out there a podcast that I've enjoyed listening to for several years is actually a couple years probably one of the first podcasts I ever started listening to and that is Java with Julie.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: She is an author and a speaker and I think you'll find the authentic intimacy podcasts and conversation to not necessarily be ones that you can listen to with your kids but especially for us women conversation that doesn't come up necessarily over coffee with your friends.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: These are deeper conversations but might be a great place to start the conversation in your own mind and your own heart and just navigate some of those tougher questions when it comes to relationships, marriage and so much more.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: So be sure if you haven't already subscribe to Java with Julie and I think you'll find the podcast conversation there really encouraging.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Again I hope you're enjoying our new music from the album down here and up above Song is Heavenly Things written by Carla Adolph and Ben Pasley.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited in the future here to have enter the worship circle on our podcast program and just hear their story and their journey.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: A couple other podcasts that are coming up that I'm excited about is some local pastors uh Nathan and Rachel Dorensky.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: They um sacrificed a lot to move to Kansas City and I think you'll find their story encouraging as well as Nathan's new book and we'll be talking about that and sharing how you can even get some free copies on that podcast.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I told you lots of giveaways this season yay I love giving free things.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you may be remembering that I mentioned a giveaway and to stay tuned and listen to the end of the podcast well it's pretty easy.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Check out the show notes to see how you can enter to win one of Natalie's new books.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna have two copies that she's generously given us to share with a couple of winners from our audience.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if you haven't um entered a giveaway before easily from our podcast it's super easy.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Just click on the link and enter to win you can also find out more information at simply wholehearted.com or find us on Facebook as well at Simply Wholehearted.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can just join in the community the conversation where we share information pertaining to our podcast and more ways to live simply wholehearted.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: So until next time I hope that you find more ways to live simply wholehearted unplugged purposeful and intentional